The Once-Dominant Volkswagen Golf Is Quietly Fading

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NittyB@reddit

Bring in the Golf R and GTI with a 'factory lift' as a crossover. Same way the XV absolutely killed it v/s the legacy/impreza.

Anyone that wants a sportier drive will throw on some coilovers, lower it and get a hot hatch.

Yer mum's tighter in the back.

... That aside, the lack of wagons on the market and relatively high price compared to crossover of similar interior volume is a huge factor.

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RationalDialog@reddit

But was the golf ever big in US? This is affecting mostly Europe I think? And pickups are not a thing here, they are only really used as work vehicles like gardeners and such and rather rare.

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imasammich@reddit

Thats so untrue. The ride height has little to do with how you compare to over vehicles. Its 99% just how you sit in the car and how you view the road in front of you.

I go from my performance cars to commuter suv all the time and i would take driving my suv amongst other suvs every time over driving my coupe on the road with other coupes.

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Evilmoustachetwirler@reddit

A sports/performance car is not the same as a family sedan or wagon.

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spicy-mayo@reddit

I switched from a golf to a CUV (Escape PHEV) yes I loved how the Golf drove, but I admit, getting in and out of the Escape is easier, I'm no longe blinded by every second cars headlights, the extra ground clearance is nice in the winter (even though i don't have AWD), baby seat access is easier.

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ZannX@reddit

Enthusiasts: "Muh dynamics at 10/10ths around the corner when getting groceries!!!!"

Normal People: "What?"

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

Given the number of performance cars I see with cheap or almost bald tyres (sometimes both) rolling around my part of Australia, I suspect many enthusiasts think they care more about vehicle dynamics than they actually do.

Also they are more convenient with small children. I drove a sedan when all my kids were in car seats. Getting them in and out was much easier with a minivan/SUV. Especially considering I live in a city so am constantly parallel parking meaning the curb raises me up another six inches when I put them in their seats.

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Egoist-a@reddit

The majority of new car buyers are 30+. Those buyers are thinking about mobility.

If you think about mobility at 30 years old, you should spend money on a car, but on the Gym or in a Doctor

pains and injuries do build up as you age. I exercise 10-12 hours a week and am not overweight, but I’ve had two back injuries over the years (one from weightlifting and another from work) and getting in out of my sedan sucked during the acute phase or when it flares up.

If the typical buyer of SUV was that, SUV's wouldn't exist. Big majority of people don't have those kind of problems.

You can pee against the wind all you want, people buy SUVs for the looks and raised driving position. Single and healthy people are buying bug SUVs and trucks.

Children and back problems existed since the human being was "invented", not 20 years ago.

"Normal cars" have been serving humanity perfectly forever.

Minivans also have raised seats, MUCH more convenient sliding doors, yet they don't sell... because they aren't trendy. So people can keep the functionalily BS because you killed the minivans that destroy any SUV in any practicality argument.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

Minivans also have raised seats, MUCH more convenient sliding doors, yet they don't sell... because they aren't trendy

They also don't sell because they only make sense if you're regularly hauling more than five occupants or a lot of kit.

Someone who's looking at buying a Lexus UX isn't cross shopping it against the LM.

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Maggins@reddit

I said 30+. Yeah the average 30 year old isn’t thinking about mobility (they’re thinking about kids, hauling stuff, etc) but people in their 50s and 60s certainly are almost universally thinking about comfort.

If you look at the stats, 40% of Americans over the age of 30 report lower back pain with varying degrees of severity. My social circle is very active between gym and outdoor sports. Most of us have avoided pain that comes from sedentary lifestyle but almost all of us have built up cumulative injuries from that active lifestyle, whether it’s overuse injuries or traumatic ones. Sure most times a sedan is perfectly fine, but SUVs are nice when you hurt your back or blow out your ACL. Not to mention SUVs make transporting gear or getting to areas off-road much easier.

Then you have all the people who have been lazy and sedentary (which has dramatically increased over the last decades) who do find it easier to get in and out of SUVs.

Yes, sedans met people’s needs, but that doesn’t mean things can’t evolve to meet their needs better.

And I don’t disagree that minivans are more practical for most people. I own one instead of a giant 3-row SUV. But there’s a huge range of SUVs. I don’t see a problem with something like a Subaru Forester rather than a Camry.

I’m with you though when it comes to all the unnecessary giant pick-ups that aren’t actually used for truck things.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

Nobody is buying car thinking about people with lower mobility, that's a very niche market.

Pretty much everyone older is thinking about this for their daily. It's different for weekend toys but most adults once they hit their 30s and 40s start putting an emphasis on practicality, especially if they only own one car.

It may be for them. It might be for when they're driving grandma to the doctor. Either way it's important. And remember, the average age of a new car buyer is getting older.

People buy SUVs because they like the look, period.

Older folks weren't buying the Toyota Rukus for looks. They certainly aren't buying things like the Yaris/Corolla Cross or the T-Cross/T-Roc for looks. Do you honestly think people are buying a Kia Sportage or a Sorrento for the look?

Don't tell me a footballer cars about people with mobility issues.

You're seeing footballers rolling around in small car based crossovers? The last time I looked, they favoured the big, brash off-roaders like the Range Rover, G-Wagen and Escalade. Maybe you're referring to the big luxury VW Group crossovers like the Cayenne/Urus/Bentayga but that's not the class of vehicle we're discussing here and are a very small percentage of all crossovers sold.

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coffeeshopslut@reddit

99% of people dgaf about driving dynamics. Even guys in the car scene... Good chunk of those just care about a e s t h e t I c and the speed when you floor it, and maybe the noise.

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clownpirate@reddit

A lot of CUVs, from the luxury makes at least, are pretty engaging to drive. I’d put things like the Stelvio and Macan on the top end of the spectrum but even your base model vanilla X3s and GLCs aren’t bad at all.

I’d take a base X3 for a fun spirited drive over any generic midsized Camcordata family sedan any day.

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Scrimps@reddit

For 99 percent of people, CUV's are some of the least accessible vehicles. Outside of being an obese person with no control. They are not even fit to be adapted for accessibility. No CUV on the market today has standard door openings (they don't open wide enough due to CUV design). They hold less then hatch backs and their suspensions are NOT rated for any accessibility features.

In Europe and Canada CUV's can't be adapted for accessibility. You will not be insured and it will void even after market warranties.

CUV's are raised up cars designed for people who are too "big" to fit into a regular car, and those manufactures want to trick into buying an "SUV".

I worked at Magna International while the concept of CUV"s were first being developed.

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againstliam@reddit

What about CUVs cant be adapted for accessibility that hatchbacks can? Any wheelchair accessibility vehicles i see are always minivans anyways. Also not sure what the magna comment means. I also worked for them and a tiered 1 supplier has extremely limited input in CUVs being developed compared to the OEMs.

CUVs have a higher ride height, higher seating position with most of the same or more storage options. Hardly a trick.

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Scrimps@reddit

Original RAV 4 was not a modern CUV. It was a hybrid between an SUV and CUV. Sharing some characteristics with both.

That term was first used around 2000. The RAV4 helped begin the segment in the mid 90, and it's been a pile of shit ever since.

It does not share it's platform with a car, and was designed for a specific purpose. It's engine, the 3S-FE was shared with the Camry and is widely considered the worst engine in the history of Toyota. https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/21-07-10_faq_s-engine_en.htm

Coolant Leaks, Transmission Problems, Engine problems, steering issues, rust and failed crash tests. Including the infamous rollover test(https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/watch-the-toyota-rav4-fails-the-infamous-moose-test-pretty-badly) have all been problems.

Mainly attributed to the design of the RAV4 itself. CUV's inherently have reliability issues due to using the internal components/parts of a car with the additional stresses and weight of a larger vehicle. The unibody design was also never originally engineered with heravy or larger vehicles in mind. It was adapted for this hybrid class of vehicle.

Rav4 is among the least reliable and most troublesome vehicles Toyota has released. If you look at the entire segment, you will notice all CUV's will be among the least reliable vehicles a manufacture offers. Regardless of brand.

In terms of Magna, you clearly don't work for the company. Magna doesn't just design parts, but entire platforms. 80 percent of the F150 lightning was designed, engineered and sold to Ford by Magna, for example. We literally pioneer platforms for large auto companies.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

Also not sure what the magna comment means.

Yea a lowered sedan out wagon isn’t great, I drive an i20n and it’s a little tight but fine for putting my kid in, or Octavia wagon is perfect for me though, it’s not a sport model so is raised a little, and the boot is huge! It drives like a Mazda 3 honestly. So good.

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Drzhivago138@reddit

It’s far worse.

A wagon has more space for passengers and luggage.

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mehdotdotdotdot@reddit

Why are you comparing a sedan? We are talking wagons.

The ring with SUV boot space, unless you pack it with sand to the roof, of which you would need a barrier to stop it going into the rear seats, then only then is the boot bigger. Most wagons have bigger floors and far more usable space before it reaches the height of the rear seats.

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IDK what "burger brained" is supposed to mean, but if you meant it to be a witty insult, it's not working. C-segment literally is called "compact" in the US. I didn't name it that. Most tend to be either side of 180", which isn't especially long for a car. What's a D- or E-segment car to you, then? A behemoth?

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

I'm European, we're just not used to people driving the car equivalent of the QE2.

People that go to the US has the same comment about traffic, everybody drives a hulking behemoth.

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Drzhivago138@reddit

So if a C-segment is already "big," what's a D- or E-segment car?

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

gigantic

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mehdotdotdotdot@reddit

What's a CX3 then?

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Saskatchewon@reddit

A Toyota Camry is over a full foot longer than the CX-5 and only 0.2 inches narrower.

That "huge" CX-5 has a smaller footprint than the world's best selling mid-size sedan.

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The CX-3 is a subcompact/B-segment. If you think a 180" CUV is "huge," I dunno what to tell you.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

They're huge already for European standards.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

The CX5 is the same size as a Volkswagen Tiguan, an Audi Q3 or a Mini Countryman. They're shorter in length than a BMW 3 Series.

Even by European standards they're not considered huge.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

RAV4 is about 4.6 meters. The BMW 3 got fat AF (reached 4.8 meters).

Accessible, popular cars don't go beyond 4 meters usually. Panda is below 3.7; Yaris and Sandero around 4, and they're already as big as a Golf was a decade ago, before this trend for crossovers started.

So yes. They're big cars.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

I mean, if your metric for a "normal" sized car is something like a Polo or a Yaris, then yes, you're going to consider everything to be large.

Even the Golf is 4282mm long. The Cupra Born is 4324mm. The VW ID.3 is 4261mm. The Focus is 4382mm. A BMW 1 Series is 4319mm. These are all regular sized hatchbacks that you'd see every day.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

Yeah, they slowly shifted into being larger and longer. They're relatively mid though. A 4.8 meters box-shaped car is a lot different.

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Saskatchewon@reddit

The BMW 3 has a larger footprint than the CX-5 does. It's 5 inches longer, and only half an inch more narrow.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

BMW 3 isn't a small car though

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Saskatchewon@reddit

The CX-5 is a full foot shorter and nearly the exact same width as the Toyota Camry.

The CX-5 is two inches shorter in length than a Toyota Corolla.

Neither of those cars are considered particularly large.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

There really isn't much in it. Take this comparison between the Golf Estate/Wagon and the Tiguan that's based on the same platform.

That’s everyone now lol

2 or less is still doable in a basic 5 seater. The car seat complaints are overblown or people get too big of ones that don’t really fit.

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s1a1om@reddit

Depends if you need two rear facing ones. But that’s hard in most cars. Why auto manufacturers haven’t added the extra 3” to make it a non-issue I’ll never understand.

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trail-g62Bim@reddit

Maybe she is planning for the future. Kids wont be small forever. Soon they will be going to soccer practice with all their gear. Throw in a friend or two and you suddenly need quite a bit of space.

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ImpossibleFlopper@reddit

Put an Uppababy Vista in the back of a Corolla one time and then come back here 😂

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makingthisfor1reason@reddit

Lift kid up and put into car seat perfect

No need to lift them up so high!

How tall are you?

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mehdotdotdotdot@reddit

Haha! 5ft9

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

You're not lifting anyone high unless you had something like a Prado or a Defender.

Yup. You can have the best snow tires wrapped in snow chains and a great AWD system, and it means jack shit if the snow gets deep enough to leave you high centered. There's a piece of mind you get knowing you are driving over hardened chunks of snow/ice that have collected in other vehicles wheel wells rattled loose onto the road without them banging off your front bumper as you do.

I've always driven small cars and hatchbacks. This past winter here in Saskatchewan Canada was my first with my Crosstrek Wilderness. It was the first year out of the ~20 I have been driving where I was not once worried about getting stuck driving to work before the roads were plowed.

"But my sedan/hatch/sports car with snow tires is just as good!" No it ain't. I was that guy for twenty years, and that guy was clueless. Just ask my neighbour with the WRX I had to pull out of a drift that he had high-centered in this past winter, Michelin X-Ice tires and all. Twice.

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reductase@reddit

Strange how so many people lived in lake effect snow areas and managed with 2WD cars for decades until SUVs were invented. Know your capabilities; I see many more purple overestimating their SUV off-roading capability than stranded little cars.

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wander9077@reddit

lake effect snow areas spend lots of time plowing roads. - former Marquette mi up resident. try it in rural ak where i am now

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trail-g62Bim@reddit

"I manage just fine."

But there is this thing that makes it easier

Strange how so many people lived in lake effect snow areas and managed with 2WD cars for decades until SUVs were invented.

So what? People lived in lake effect snow areas pre-automobile and got around on horseback. Why adopt cars when that worked just fine for them? What are we doing communicating on Reddit when we could be corresponding via mail instead. Our ancestors managed with that back in the day.

I'm 5ft 9 if that helps you? My partner is 5 ft 5 and she struggled big time with the CX5 we had.

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footpole@reddit

I do not understand this. It's much easier to put a kid in a car seat when it's higher up as you need to fiddle with the seatbelts and don't need to bend down.

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I’ve got zero issue doing the seatbelt. No adult should struggle with that

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footpole@reddit

I didn’t say I struggle. Just that it’s more comfortable if you don’t have to bend down. You still need to lift the kid…

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Saskatchewon@reddit

You lose viability in an SUV though

With a true, body on frame SUV? Sure. With a CUV? Not really. Most crossovers aren't lifted up so high that they create large blind-spots for child pedestrians.

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mehdotdotdotdot@reddit

Compare the height of the tailgate, where the rear window ends, and how high off the ground it is. In all SUVs, it's significantly higher than say a golf wagon.

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Saskatchewon@reddit

The Tiguan's rear window is only around 3-4 inches higher up off the ground than the Golf's. Not that it really matters as the cars comemwith rear view cameras standard, as do all cars sold in the USA are mandated to as of 2018. Those two models feature rear proximity sensors as well.

People still backing up into children in spite of rear view cameras are going to do that regardless of what they're driving.

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Reddit has a hate boner for SUVs and crossovers. Nothing you say can prove this guy wrong.

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DudebuD16@reddit

I drive a Mach e and had an x3 as a rental while the Mach e was being repaired.

I still want a Holden Adventure T.T

Lifted AWD V8 stationwagon is the pinnacle of automotive engineering.

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granolaraisin@reddit

It’s a height arms race. The more SUVs on the road the more comfortable it is to be seated up high so you can see. Holds especially true in parking lots. Getting out of a spot in a sedan when flanked by full sized trucks on each side is nigh impossible these days.

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330CI01@reddit

The most practical type of vehicle is a minivan, but nobody wants to be seen driving one anymore.

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Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit

In ages past when the average family had 6 people in it, sure. Today when it's 2 or 3? Not so much

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330CI01@reddit

A lot of buyers want a 3rd row. I would argue that sliding rear doors are the best way to access any 3rd row, but nobody likes the look anymore. Boomers didn't want to drive station wagons like their parents, so they bought minivans. Millennials don't want to drive minivans like their parents, so they buy CUV's.

It's ok, you don't like minivans, they aren't cool. They don't look as good. I get it, i don't want a minivan either. I'm just tired of people giving out bullshit about how CUVs are the only thing that could possibly fit their lifestyle. Just stop lying to everyone that you are buying a car based on practicality.

I don't care what you like, I drive a 2 seater, but I don't go around trying to get people to believe it's because I needed it.

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funnyfarm299@reddit

Not sold in the USA.

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My argument would be that you are actually describing a specialized vehicle. A minivan will do everything a CUV will do except for ground clearance.

While offering much lower gas mileage, being more difficult to park, much worse blind spots, etc.

People who are complaining about crossovers being too large would be real bent out of shape if everyone switched to mini-vans instead. A mini-van is way more vehicle than what most people need.

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TzarKazm@reddit

As I said in another comment, what about the Mazda 5?

If minivans are awesome, but just too big for most people, why didn't the Mazda 5 sell like hotcakes?

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

So its not entirely about what's practical.

Until these muppets start crying about "Muh practicality!"

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Chippy569@reddit

And people hate them.

A Fit is fine if it's just you or maybe you and a spouse, but if kids appear you're going to want something a little bigger.

Two words: Corolla Cross

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ycnz@reddit

Have you tried putting a rear-facing child seat in a Cross? All the reviews suggest it's not exactly fun.

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Scrimps@reddit

CUV's are terrible.

Less reliability due to being a car platform on stilts.
Less space then a hatchback. A Kia Rio Hatchback, even from 2016, can hold more then almost any CUV on the market today.
Uses more gas then a sedan/hatchback.
Have less power then a sedan/hatchback/truck/SUV due to weight + engine designed for a lighter vehicle
Not suppose to tow, will significantly reduce lifespan of transmission and engine (depending on brand).
Exclusively designed by auto manufactures to trick the average person.

CUV's were designed for people who know nothing about vehicles. It's really that simple. There is no redeeming qualities or reason to buy a CUV. It was never built for any purpose aside from quick sales. There is no thought in the design of the vehicle besides "make this car look like an SUV". It can't do utility, it can't do sport, and they don't have enough HP to get out of danger on busy, high volume roadways. Which is why CUV's are the most accident prone vehicles on the worlds busiest highways like the 401 in Toronto.

I encourage you to look up the MANY engineering articles, youtube videos or check out some of the automotive engineering forums.

I worked at Magna International. NOBODY in engineering wanted to help design CUV's. The entire industry thought they were a mistake. Marketing teams and MBA's are the only reason CUV's exist.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

They hated him because he told them the truth

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quantum-quetzal@reddit

Are you trolling?

Less reliability due to being a car platform on stilts.

Let's see a citation for that. I certainly don't see any inherent connection between ride height and reliability.

Less space then a hatchback. A Kia Rio Hatchback, even from 2016, can hold more then almost any CUV on the market today.

The Kia Rio hatch has 17.4 cubic feet of rear cargo space, or 32.8 cubic feet with the seats folded. Even the subcompact Kia Niro has 22.8 cubic feet and 63.7 cubic feet, respectively. Space just goes up as you increase the size. Sticking with Kia, the Telluride has 21 and 87 cubic feet, respectively.

Uses more gas then a sedan/hatchback.

Often true, but it's not necessarily a big difference. For example, the Mazda CX-30 and Mazda 3 (which share a platform) have the same EPA efficiency rating.

Have less power then a sedan/hatchback/truck/SUV due to weight + engine designed for a lighter vehicle

Not inherently. There are so many different models within any of those classifications that it's impossible to make such a general statement accurately. Some CUVs have little economy engines, while others share powertrains with sports cars.

Not suppose to tow, will significantly reduce lifespan of transmission and engine (depending on brand).

There are plenty of CUVs rated to tow. The most common options, like the RAV4, CR-V, and Equinox all have tow ratings from the manufacturers. Even the subcompact models, like the HR-V, Niro, and CX-30, often have tow ratings.

Exclusively designed by auto manufactures to trick the average person.

You're clearly too emotional about hating CUVs to look at their pros and cons objectively. Sure, they compromise in many ways, but so does any vehicle. It's all about finding the right compromises for any given need.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

Except they're smaller than hatchbacks whilst simultaneously being larger on the outside and as an added bonus they use more fuel and cost more money!

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Chippy569@reddit

it's like we took a 5dr hatch and just lifted up off the ground another couple inches and voila, CUV

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Ran4@reddit

That's just wrong. They're not very efficient due to the high ride height. You often have huge compartments in the rear which is hard to reach.

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Domyyy@reddit

It isn’t that clear to me, since we’re in „wagon country“ (Germany) here.

I have a SUV for work (farming) and even after 8 years of owning it I struggle to see why people prefer them over wagons.

Main argument in my social circle is „it’s easier to get in/out“

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Drzhivago138@reddit

Main argument in my social circle is „it’s easier to get in/out“

They actually have, which is why all safety ratings now require active measures to get full scores. We’ve basically accepted that modern designs are physically incredibly deadly so all new cars need sensors to try to prevent killing pedestrians.

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humble-bragging@reddit

safety ratings now require active measures

What active measures are you talking about? Pedestrians killed has doubled. ADAS systems like radar-based automatic breaking may help, and may become mandatory/ubiquitous, but that hasn't happened yet.

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irgeorge@reddit

No doubt, the new regulations may not be very effective but they’re trying (and failing) to make fundamentally dangerous vehicles safer.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

Many of them being just worse cars all around. People will buy anything for status. I've even seen Yaris Cross being used as taxis, and owning a Yaris myself I honestly wouldn't call traveling in the backseat

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Saskatchewon@reddit

Worse by which metrics? You lose some driving dynamics and gas mileage. But you also gain some real world practicality. They're easier to get in and out of. The higher load floor and wider door openings makes loading in groceries and strapping in car seats and children easier. The longer suspension often makes for a softer, more comfortable ride. Their footprints are more or less the same as the smaller cars and sedans they are based on, so they are just as easy to park.

If you live in an area with a ton of snow, that extra ride height makes a big difference. I live in rural bumfuck nowhere in the middle of Canada and all my previous vehicles in my 20 off years of driving were small cars, hatchbacks, and a sports car. This previous winter was my first with a CUV (Crosstrek), and it was the first I have had in my life where not once was I worried about getting stuck on my way to work the morning after a storm before the roads were ploughed. I used to be one of those guys who would claim "A small car is just as good in deep snow with good winter tires!". I was that guy, and that guy was clueless. Meanwhile I had to help push my neighbour's WRX out of a snow drift he had high centered in twice last year, Michelin X-Ice Tires and all. Both times he pulled right back into his driveway and had to phone a friend with an SUV for a lift to work for a few days.

For many buyers, a crossover does makes more sense than a sedan or hatch.

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Ran4@reddit

But you also gain some real world practicality

No, you don't. The cargo space is not bigger given the same dimensions.

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Saskatchewon@reddit

I didn't mention anything about more cargo room.

They're easier to get in and out of. The higher load floor and taller doors mean you aren't bending down to load groceries, car seats, and children. A hitch can be placed higher, which is better for towing. The higher ride height makes them more capable in deeper snow (which I've really noticed living on the prairies in Canada). There's more space for larger suspension set-ups, with most CUVs offering a softer ride than the cars they share platforms with.

There's more to practicality than cargo space, which again, I never even mentioned.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

But you also gain some real world practicality

I didn't mention anything about more cargo room.

Choose one.

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Saskatchewon@reddit

Practically isn't just cargo space.

Higher seating position with taller door openings for easier entry and egress for occupants. That's practical.

Higher ride height for avoiding high-centering in deep snowy conditions. That's practical.

A higher hitch position for more even load distribution while towing. That's practical.

A higher load floor so you don't have to bend down to install car seats, buckle in children, pick up and remove groceries. That's practical.

Larger suspension for a softer ride. That's practical.

Not to mention that most CUVs aren't even giving up any storage space versus the cars and hatchbacks they're sharing platforms with. Most of the time they do offer more space than the cars they share platforms with. The RAV4 has double the amount of trunk cubic feet of storage in the trunk than the Camry. Same thing with the CR-V vs the Civic hatchback. That's in spite of the Camry being an entire foot longer than the RAV4, and the Civic and CR-V being the exact same length.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

Higher ride height for avoiding high-centering in deep snowy conditions. That's practical.

If you're out driving in snow so deep that you NEED the extra ride height then you should've stayed home.

I get around very fine here in Norway with my F20 1-series, even in some pretty awful conditions and no it's not an X-Drive variant, just normal RWD.

A higher hitch position for more even load distribution while towing. That's practical.

If your trailer is very tall, sure.

If not then no.

A higher load floor so you don't have to bend down to install car seats, buckle in children, pick up and remove groceries. That's practical.

Hey uh, when you get those groceries into the car, do they just magically levitate themselves in or do you have to lift them higher?

Larger suspension for a softer ride. That's practical.

SUV's are generally much stiffer than a comparable wagon, so that's a definitive no.

In fact, most of the time they do offer more space than the cars they share platforms with. The RAV4 has double the amount of cubic ft. of storage in the trunk that the Camry has.

Ah yes, compare an SUV to a fucking sedan, way to argue in good faith lmao

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Saskatchewon@reddit

I get around very fine here in Norway with my F20 1-series, even in some pretty awful conditions and no it's not an X-Drive variant, just normal RWD.

I live in rural Saskatchewan Canada. We receive around 1.5 times the amount of snow that Oslo receives in an average year, with that snow lasting from late October to mid-May, with temperatures typically dropping down to -15°C to -30°C, before factoring in wind chill. If everyone here drove small cars and hatches and we simply didn't drive whenever it snowed enough that there was a risk of getting stuck, our province would be shut down for one or two weeks a year. I drove a BRZ for 10 years. I'd have to phone around for rides around 20 days a year on average.

Hey uh, when you get those groceries into the car, do they just magically levitate themselves in or do you have to lift them higher?

See, in North America, we have these things called shopping carts, and you typically transfer your grocery bags from the cart directly into your vehicle. I can't recall the last time I actually set my grocery bags on the ground between buying them and bringing them into my house.

I thought people from Scandinavian countries were typically pretty tall? Do you all drive around in convertibles where you don't have to awkwardly half crawl into your sedans to awkwardly secure your car seats?

Ah yes, compare an SUV to a fucking sedan, way to argue in good faith lmao

You mention driving a 1 Series wagon. That offers 1200 litres of cargo space with the rear seats down. The BMX X1 offers 1550 litres of cargo space with its rear seats down. 13% more cargo space in a vehicle that is only 5 inches (under 10%) and the exact same width.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

We probably use better tires than you guys do, the difference between nordic winter tires and 'regular' winter tires is pretty big.

I'm not in Oslo and we also get pretty extreme snowfall some years, like 2007 when the highway here was shut which is basically unheard of, roofing collapsed even though everything is built to handle extreme snow and it was generally 'a bit chaotic' in a place very used to heavy snow.

It's coastal so temps are generally quite stable and "mild" but we get extremes sometimes, like this winter we had -20c for a few days.

A meter of snow dropping over the course of 1 to 2 days is not unheard of at all.

People drive normal cars though, I'm personally looking to get a 4wd car because I live up a horrific hill that is usually covered in ice but I've fared quite well without it over the years, only ever had two 4wd cars. (one decided it didn't want to be 4wd anymore though so it became a RWD BMW X3 but still did pretty well.)

You mention driving a 1 Series wagon.

It's a hatchback, not a wagon.

See, in North America, we have these things called shopping carts, and you typically transfer your grocery bags from the cart directly into your vehicle.

I don't use a shopping cart very often, usually just a trolley which gets left inside the store and I carry my stuff out to the car, very normal here.

Appreciate the snark though!

The BMX X1 offers 1550 litres of cargo space

You're not comparing cars of the same vintage and the 1-series is not known for making good use of its footprint in terms of space, it's a shrunk down 3-series after all.

The E84 has 420 liters with the seats up and 1350 with the seats down whilst the F20 has 380 liters with seats up and 1200 with them down.

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/bmw-x1-2011-suv-vs-bmw-1-2011-5-door-hatchback/

The E84 is also quite a bit larger.

if you realized that I was Canadian you wouldn't have assumed that you know more about driving in snowy conditions than I do. You probably don't.

I just might, I do it quite a lot, quite sideways (without incident!) and in quite tricky conditions since we get way too much ice here, also done it for 16 years in a wide variety of cars so I'd like to think I've learned a thing or two along the way.

Only ever gotten stuck once though and it was entirely my own fault, last winter actually when I was whipping the car around and just sailed into an unplowed area and got beached.

Not my proudest moment and sure an SUV would have made it far easier to get out but I did drive out after clearing a little snow, didn't even need a shovel.

Like I said, normal cars are just fine, if they weren't Norway would only have 4wd cars.

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Saskatchewon@reddit

We probably use better tires than you guys do, the difference between nordic winter tires and 'regular' winter tires is pretty big.

Yes, we have access to specialty winter tires as well, including top of the line stuff from Hankook and Nokian that you're probably using. Again, our winters are significantly longer and colder than yours. Take any notions of "We just have better winter gear" in your head and get rid of them.

the 1-series is not known for making good use of its footprint in terms of space, it's a shrunk down 3-series after all.

Cool. Let's look at the 3 Series. The 2025 3 Series hatchback has 1,510 litres of space with the rear seats folded. The BMW X3, which shares its platform with the 3 series, offers 1,700 litres of space. So that's 190 litres more space. And that's in spite of the 3 Series Hatch being 3 inches longer than the X3.

I just might, I do it quite a lot, quite sideways (without incident!) and in quite tricky conditions since we get way too much ice here, also done it for 16 years in a wide variety of cars so I'd like to think I've learned a thing or two along the way.

I've got 20 years of driving experience. Winter conditions last six months here, so that's 10 years of experience driving just in winter conditions (which again, typically feature more snow statistically), in vehicles ranging from a RWD sportscar (BRZ), a FWD hot hatch (Mini Cooper S), my current Crosstrek, and all the way up to my parent's Toyota 4Runner. Again, we literally spend half of the year driving in winter conditions. My BRZ and Mini? Loads of fun in the summer. Absolutely miserable experiences in the winter.

You can "get by" in a normal car. But having something with some ground clearance and a good AWD or 4WD setup makes it infinitely more enjoyable.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

Take any notions of "We simply have better winter gear" you have and forget them.

NA isn't known for using good winter tires and those tires are called nordic winter tires for a reason, they're the norm here for a reason and from what I'm seeing they're not the norm in Canuckistan, actually hard to even find some for sale after some quick googling though they do exist.

harsher, and with more snowfall than yours are.

Depends on the year.

My BRZ and Mini? Loads of fun in the summer. Absolutely miserable experiences in the winter.

I agree with FWD being pure misery but RWD is more than capable in winter, I'd love a BRZ if I didn't live up this awful hill and they weren't very overpriced here with nearly all of them being automatics for some reason. (Cheapest one for sale of both BRZ and GT86 that's not auto is 38500 CAD)

Only cars I've not liked during winter are FWD ones, which were truly miserable.

You can "get by" in a normal car. But having something with some ground clearance and a good AWD or 4WD setup makes it infinitely more enjoyable.

Absolutely agree with that if all you want is transportation.

You invalidated yourself as soon as you said that if there was a chance you get stuck and high centre, you shouldn't go out.

Guess I'm just used to snowplows being driven around quite frequently? Idk, roads are normally cleared quite well here.

If your car can't manage it, you phone a friend or family member with a truck or SUV and get to work when you can.

We'd just call in for that as it's usually only a day or so if it gets real bad.

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Saskatchewon@reddit

If your car can't manage it, you phone a friend or family member with a truck or SUV and get to work when you can.

We'd just call in for that as it's usually only a day or so if it gets real bad.

And we don't. And that's because everyone who lives here either drives a capable crossover with AWD, SUV, or pickup truck or knows someone who does. Reason being, again, they can handle deeper snow that small cars, sedans, and hatchbacks can't.

Your argument seems to be "Small cars and sedans are just as good in the snow because we don't use them if they would get stuck". Everyone here either drives something that won't get stuck or knows someone who does.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

"Small cars and sedans are just as good in the snow as long as you don't drive them when the snow is deep enough that they could get stuck".

I mean, yeah?

Pretty much, if you don't go over the limits a lower vehicle has and it still has 4wd it would still be just as good, I've surprised plenty of people with cars they deemed unfit for winter driving, my dad for example started out thinking RWD wasn't very good for winters and has now ended up wanting to ditch his A3 in favour of a RWD or 4WD EV, FWD is off the table completely, he for the record lives up a 2km long hill with lots of turns, speed bumps and a not very cool ditch that seems like it was specially made to get cars stuck in it.

Normal cars (FWD is still crap, let's be real) are far more capable in winter than you give them credit for.

That you live with seemingly unplowed roads for 50% of the year is honestly just damning of your government more than anything else.

Take for example an Audi with the proper Torsen system, I've had a VW Passat B5.5 with the same system and it was incredible, only thing stopping it would be getting beached.

For us, something that rides higher and gives us another 2-3 inches of ground clearance let's us manage with an extra 2-3 inches of snow. Count yourself lucky you don't have to worry about that. We do.

Your conditions are quite extreme, I don't really get why that all of a sudden applies for everyone.

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Drzhivago138@reddit

Fuck crossovers.

Did one run over your dog or something?

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thegunnersdaughter@reddit

Did one run over your dog or something?

For those of us who like hatchbacks it is just a real thorn in the side. Sedans will probably survive to some extent, but hatchbacks continue to be fastbacked (rarely) or dropped entirely (more commonly). The only true compact hatchback for sale in the US today is what, the Mazda3? The Impreza also I guess depending how you feel about the glass angle. And who knows what the next generations will bring, but it doesn't look good. But CUVs get the ire because CUVs are what's killing the hatchback.

I don't know if I should blame buyers, or regulators, or dealers, or manufacturers, or what. I just know it sucks, because there's exactly 1 car on the market today I'd consider buying new, and soon there will be 0.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

It did run on my intention to buy a Corolla.

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Drzhivago138@reddit

It did run on my intention to buy a Corolla.

HamburgerOnAStick@reddit

Why not get a minivan or truck?

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jasonlitka@reddit

Trucks meet none of those requirements unless you’re getting something absolutely massive. I also have no need for a truck bed so that’s just wasted space unless I’m tossing bikes in there.

As to minivans, I could give the practical answer that no minivan comes with a Class 3 hitch which is what you’re going to need for a rack that hold 4 bikes (all I’ve seen say you need a 500lb tongue weight), or I could give the enthusiast answer and say that the only cool minivan ever made was the Mercedes R63.

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HamburgerOnAStick@reddit

Then for your usecase 100% an SUV is the answer, but for most people an SUV isn't the practical choice

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jasonlitka@reddit

Well, I think that depends on where you’re coming from.

The pickup truck is a more niche vehicle, really only “right” if you’re towing regularly or need to haul cargo.

A van isn’t actually very practical unless you need 7 seats, and 7 seat SUVs are similarly impractical as they generally lack cargo area unless you go with something absolutely massive like a Yukon XL.

5 seat SUVs give you enough room for comfortable seating and also have more cargo space in the rear. Smaller ones can handle a Class 2 hitch, good for 2 bikes, and medium to large can do Class 3 good for 4 bikes or a pair of e-bikes.

A standard sedan or coupe is a better fit for most people, especially singles, and many of those people buy SUVs instead because they’re popular, but that doesn’t make them the wrong decision, just slightly suboptimal.

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HamburgerOnAStick@reddit

Yeah thats fair. I will say though that if you do have a decently large family a minivan is by far the best vehicle, even over large SUVs like the Yukon XL and Suburban. Even if you like offroading the Sienna can actually be a decent offroader

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TookEverything@reddit

Sienna’s problem is ground clearance. The Expedition can get up to 10 inches stock, 8.7 at minimum. The Sienna tops out at 6.4, 6.9 at best. Plus the SUV’s are BOF, and so are much easier to fix, and can be had with locking diffs.

I drive a Formentor, it's comfortable to get in. Coming from a 5 series BMW.

Way better in my eyes haha

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Stu__Pidasso@reddit

I wouldn't say people "love" them, much like they don't "love" their fridge or oven. They're something that they use everyday and serves a purpose. With more people/families stuck trying to get one vehicle that covers multiple needs verse multiple cars, SUVs/CUVs check most of the boxes.

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trail-g62Bim@reddit

With more people/families stuck trying to get one vehicle that covers multiple needs

This is it. Most people aren't obsessed with find a vehicle that is interesting to drive. They are trying to find a swiss army knife that can competently do a bunch of things, even if it doesn't do any of them super well.

You can a vehicle with better gas mileage, but the cuv will be good enough. You can a better vehicle for long trips but the cuv is good enough. You can find one that hauls more stuff, but the cuv is good enough. You can find one that is a better off roader, but the cuv is good enough.

It's a tool that manages to do a lot of things well enough.

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dbcanuck@reddit

The VW golf has gone up gradually in price faster than other econoboxes
they de-contented the interior; its much worse than the mk7 or mk 7.5
the gap between a GTI and an Audi A3 is close enough now in price that people will likely opt for an A3 for the brand cachet
similarly the Golf R ...may as well get an S3.

So VW collapsed its brand, reduced quality, and move the Golf GTI price up so that its no longer the entry level performance car that appeals to young drivers.

This was 100% predictable.

I agree with this, but I felt I had the same / better visibility in something like even a small people carrier. I have an XC40 because of compromise with my wife and I like its visibility and comfort but not more than say a 2 series MPV by BMW, Merc B class, etc.

Also the shitty dealers. Wanted to get a Golf R, they wanted to confirm I was going to buy it before letting me go for a test drive. Also they wanted me to accept their 6k in markup.

It was easier for me to test drive 911s than a Golf. They can keep their overpriced Golfs.

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bikedork5000@reddit

I had a Mk7 GTI. I have an Alltrack. I would have a Mk8 R if they had not nerfed the interior.

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caller-number-four@reddit

I had a Mk7 GTI.

Me too. Autobahn even. It wasn't my favorite car. It was nice. But the wheel hop was excessive when trying to have any fun.

I much prefer my mk6 TDI.

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bikedork5000@reddit

Wheel hop? Man people are too obsessed with launching, sheesh.

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caller-number-four@reddit

It wasn't even launching. Even getting mildly excited in 1st (mine was a 6MT) would cause it.

Owned a MK7 as my first car and oof. It’s fun to drive, zippy and honestly gets me in danger of getting speeding tickets.

But that car was in the shop every half a year for one issue or another.

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Fatigue-Error@reddit

Every now and then, I get the itch to buy a GTI. Then I a read a story like yours and remember why I won't buy one. Sure, every brand has lemons, but it's so easy to find stories about GTIs with problems.

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andygchicago@reddit

I went to test drive a Benz, salesperson scanned my license, gave me the keys, and said "we close at 9, would you mind being back by 8?" It was 11 am

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AncefAbuser@reddit

Luxury sales work better, because luxury salesmen and finance managers know the goal is to get a yes, doesn't matter from who.

When I was looking for a sports car, Aston gave me their V8 Vantage for the weekend. They dropped it off at 4pm on Friday in front of my clinic and they picked it up at 9am on the Monday.

I bought the V12 that week.

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Lucifers_Tits@reddit

Dude, I went into a VW dealership to buy a sunshade for my MK7, and I met the pushiest dealership owner I've ever met. She saw me looking at a yellow 40th anniversary GTI, then gave me the most annoying and aggressive sales pitch I've ever had. After multiple times of me nicely trying to get her to go away, I straight up told her that I wasn't going to buy a car and I wanted to be left alone. She then proceeded to tell me about the 3 Golf R's they had coming in and bragged about the $10k markup.

I now drive further for any dealership needs.

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TFiPW@reddit

Canada needs to bring back the City Golf.

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gowhatyourself@reddit

i get prices increase but my 2015 GTI brand new was like $24,000 and the build quality is just way better than what ive seen in mk8s. 30-35k for a GTI really pushes the limit of what ill accept and most of the time the car is pushing 40k

A 25k car in 2015 is the same as 34k today.

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jbourne0129@reddit

Yes but the quality seems worse. It would be easier to accept 34k if I wasn't so aware of all the corners they cut compared to my mk7

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gowhatyourself@reddit

I've driven both and the differences in quality are pretty minimal outside of the change to haptics. Even the throttle house guys mentioned it and came to the same conclusion.

I don't have either so I don't have a dog in this race.

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IcameforthePie@reddit

I hate the haptic controls of the MK8 and I prefer how the MK7 interior looks, but when I was test driving the two I didn't notice any jarring quality differences. Ultimately went for a used 7.5 since I didn't think the MK8 was different enough to justify spending the extra money, but the MK8 quality decreases are really overblown imo.

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thebongofamandabynes@reddit

Not OP but I've owned a MK5 GTI, MK6 GTI, MK7.5 GTI (current). My MK7 was $24,999 out the door in 2019. I'm aching to get into a MK8.5 but the pricing is absolutely ridiculous.

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Kxts@reddit

This is literally me haha. I have an 18’ SE 6MT but have been eyeing a MK8.5 SE DSG. I love my 7.5 but I feel like people are a little too obsessive over the generations and which is “bEtTeR!1!”

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dsonger20@reddit

They better not fricking get rid of them before I get one in 2-3 years.

I would be beyond crushed. They did it to be with the Arteon, and I will NOT be bamboozled again!

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DudeDudenson@reddit

Have you never considered buying an used car?

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dsonger20@reddit

Well yes, but for a car I would daily, I prefer to be the first owner. It’s a different feeling for me personally, like you’re the first person to enjoy it. If I can afford to at the time of purchase, I’d rather get new.

I’ll take immaculate care of it and send it off to someone else who would want to enjoy it as well.

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Vertrixz@reddit

Afaik they plan to do the mk8.5 GTI until 2035 with yearly changes, still ice engine. Idk about R or anything else, but that much I saw when they announced the EV GTI.

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tablesheep@reddit

Huh? They are going to make the same car for 10 more years?

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dsonger20@reddit

Yeah I read somewhere they’re planning to keep the 8.5 till 2035.

What I’m assuming is that since European regulations for emissions are tightening, they don’t think that they’ll be able to recuperate the cost of a brand new model. Assuming the Mk9 golf comes out in 2030, that’s only five years that they’ll be able to produce the gasoline model which probably isn’t long enough to make enough money. EU laws are restricting sales of gas vehicles to 2035 or at least that’s the plan.

Yea but there earlier Golf RS were better and cooler looking.

Latest one I'd get is 2019. But I'm aiming to get a 2017 or 2018 Golf R myself.

I briefly looked at Car & Driver which popped up when I Googled Tiguan R since I haven't seen one. I misread it as the R (missed it was R-Line) b/c it it is the top of the range in the US.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a64491038/2026-vw-tiguan-adds-268-hp-r-line-turbo-revealed/

So no Tiguan R for the US. 320hp is a nice bump up but it's still \~4,000lb vehicle.

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Disturbed_Bard@reddit

It's the price....

What made them attractive was the amount of car you got for the price.

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BlackCatFurry@reddit

Yeap. Skoda and Seat seem more popular now in europe, they are cheaper Volkswagens. (It's literally just vw tech in a cheaper car)

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XSC@reddit

Yeah people bought these too because they were small, useful, fun and most importantly CHEAP.

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Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit

That's what Skodas are for (in Europe).

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BlackCatFurry@reddit

I can only comment for europe, but here skoda and seat are becoming more popular simply because for the price of a base model vw you can buy fully equipped Seat or Skoda. With Seat you are probably still staying below the starting price of a vw.

I bought a 2019 Seat Arona for 17k€ (driven 55k km and in perfect condition). Good luck getting a vw golf for that price and age.

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Top_Midnight_2225@reddit

I just traded in my GTI for a Ford Maverick, and while I miss the GTI as it was awesome...it wasn't the right fit for our family.

It's too small, too low, and manual which meant my wife wouldn't be able to drive it comfortably in a pinch. I have never felt more vulnerable in a sea of pickups, SUVs, vans, and all other cars that were so much larger.

The Maverick fits the kids, their junk, is higher up and gets going pretty good with the 2.0L ecoboost motor and AWD. Fuel economy is about 1L/100km more than the GTI...and I'm ok with that for the 10x capability and usability factor.

One thing that would help the sales of the Golf in North America would be if VW actually sold the regular Golf, and not just the GTI and the R. Currently, as far as I'm aware, the only options as far as I'm aware in 2025 for a regular hatch are:

Honda Civic
Toyota Corolla Hatch
Toyota Prius (maybe it counts as a hatch? IDK)
Mazda3 Sport
Subaru Impreza
Mini Cooper
Fiat 500e

I might be missing a few, but those are all that come to mind when thinking of a real regular hatchback

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Historical-View647@reddit

Unpopular opinion: The MK I and MK III were the best iterations styling-wise.

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My last GTI will be my mk7, having driven the mk8 it feels cheap and plastic inside, nothing feels premium anymore, and they are charging a premium for it. The driving dynamics are supposed to be much better on the mk8, but driving dynamics mean nothing when materials feel like shit.

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boomerbill69@reddit

I test drove a Mk8 recently and was extremely disappointed with the interior. The shitty, unintuitive infotainment is one thing - it sucks ass but I'm sure I'd get used to it even knowing that it is a downgrade from the Mk7. However, the cost cutting really was so bad.

VW has been doing nothing to help this either. They made a lot of bad design choices, particularly with the interior and with prices being high and disposable income at a low point people just aren’t willing to spend money on a $40k hot hatch.

The new ones stock since 2020 have looked pretty bad comparatively. Totally lost the aggressive hatch look.

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55XL@reddit

I used to love the Golf. It was also a very clever and desirable little thing. A classless icon of quality and using your brains.

Now it is not even on my gross list of possible next cars.

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shortyman920@reddit

I think the GTI/R line will stick around for a while. That’s still a niche area that has a place, and clearly there’s still enough demand for it to sell. They also know what they’re doing with this lineup, and I have a feeling they don’t want to drop the GTI/R. For all the drawbacks of the MK8 generation, it’s still by all means an excellent car with really good driving dynamics at a lower price than luxury line.

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boomerbill69@reddit

Manual GTIs were literally 50% of sales.

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marc512@reddit

It's new cars in general. Unless you can make a car feel like it felt like it it's prime, it will just be another car.

Make a golf feel like the 90s or the early 2000s. I'm sure it will become more popular!

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