Amusing old Windows internal facts - yep, that’s certainly a Raymond Chen article.
“Slashdot bait” - oh wow that’s a take I haven’t heard in eons - yep article is from 2007 ❤️
Remember, folks, the article speaks only for the file system portions of the entire system.
Other parts were more dependent on DOS or even were outright implemented only in DOS.
For example, if a Windows program asked Windows for the current time, the Windows kernel would switch to DOS and let it answer! It was 98SE or even ME when MS got around to write the responsible VXD and switched the system. So, after that if a DOS program asked for the time, Windows would intercept the call, switch to fully 32-bit mode and answer it.
Fun fact. Every thread in Windows 9x actually has a corresponding DOS PEB, and these DOS PEBs lived in the real-mode memory. So, it was trivial to get the 32-bit multitasking multithreaded OS get out of resources simply because it exhausted the 640KB limits and cannot create a DOS structure to handle things that DOS did not even knew existed!
Remember, folks, the article speaks only for the file system portions of the entire system.
Other parts were more dependent on DOS or even were outright implemented only in DOS.
The article did cover this though? From the article:
Now, there are parts of MS-DOS that are unrelated to file I/O. For example, there are functions for allocating memory, parsing a string containing potential wildcards into FCB format, that sort of thing. Those functions were still handled by MS-DOS since they were just “helper library” type functions and there was no benefit to reimplementing them in 32-bit code aside from just being able to say that you did it. The old 16-bit code worked just fine, and if you let it do the work, you preserved compatibility with programs that patched MS-DOS in order to alter the behavior of those functions.
They used the idea of the editor in MSDOS as a basis of how the new edit application should work and feel. I really do not feel like this is as outlandish as you make it out to be.
For you see, MS-DOS programs and device drivers loved to mess with the operating system itself. They would replace the int 21h service vector, they would patch the operating system, ...
yea that was at the end of Amiga, commodore was already falling apart and failed to have lower end models with sufficient CPUs, while PC's finally started to get some power, graphics and sound. Like many companies, lack of keeping up with a changing world doomed them.
Yes it booted DOS first. You could even edit the startup configuration file msdos.sys to stop it from loading Windows after config.sys and autoexec.bat had been processed.
I used to edit config.sys to include the line DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO to disable the automatic loading of certain helper programs, then loaded them explicitly in the config.sys. Some of these helper programs were only needed for Windows, so when you just wanted to play a DOS game you could e.g. skip loading IFSHLP.SYS and get more conventional RAM (closer to the 640 KiB limit).
No, it wasn't. The relationship between Windows and DOS was very complex and complicated. Somethings were implemented by DOS, some - by Windows, some - by both, and some - mirrored in the two worlds.
It is possible for enterprising developers to write a lot of VXD kernel modules for Win95 and it will become completely independent of DOS (providing someone rewrote win.com to also bootstrap it).
moridinbg@reddit
Amusing old Windows internal facts - yep, that’s certainly a Raymond Chen article. “Slashdot bait” - oh wow that’s a take I haven’t heard in eons - yep article is from 2007 ❤️
AlexKazumi@reddit
Remember, folks, the article speaks only for the file system portions of the entire system.
Other parts were more dependent on DOS or even were outright implemented only in DOS.
For example, if a Windows program asked Windows for the current time, the Windows kernel would switch to DOS and let it answer! It was 98SE or even ME when MS got around to write the responsible VXD and switched the system. So, after that if a DOS program asked for the time, Windows would intercept the call, switch to fully 32-bit mode and answer it.
Fun fact. Every thread in Windows 9x actually has a corresponding DOS PEB, and these DOS PEBs lived in the real-mode memory. So, it was trivial to get the 32-bit multitasking multithreaded OS get out of resources simply because it exhausted the 640KB limits and cannot create a DOS structure to handle things that DOS did not even knew existed!
orchestratingIO@reddit
Hell, the whole start menu in Windows 95 was basically Windows 3.1
mpyne@reddit
The article did cover this though? From the article:
__konrad@reddit
Old Prank: To prevent Win9x booting you can create empty
C:\win.comfileLetiferr@reddit
Fuck, this is an ancient article
quetzalcoatl-pl@reddit
new old thing, right? :>
Letiferr@reddit
Eh, I see what you're doing there, but it's just an old old thing
summerteeth@reddit
Has there been some new developments in dos that make it out of date?
Letiferr@reddit
The better question would be whether anything has changed to make this suddenly relevant again. Strong no on that one.
modernkennnern@reddit
Microsoft's new
EditTUI editor that's based on the old DOS editor maybe? 🤔geon@reddit
It’s not. Written 100% in Rust.
modernkennnern@reddit
I know it's written in Rust, but it's based on the old one.
https://github.com/microsoft/edit
geon@reddit
You are using ”based on” very loosely.
modernkennnern@reddit
According to the oxford dictionary:
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/base-on
They used the idea of the editor in MSDOS as a basis of how the new
editapplication should work and feel. I really do not feel like this is as outlandish as you make it out to be.geon@reddit
Yeah, I might be all wrong. It is based on the dos version like in ”based on a true story”.
I just feel like in the context of software, ”based on” specifically means to use some portion of the original code.
degaart@reddit
"based"? More like "inspired"
church-rosser@reddit
windows 7 🤷♂️
summerteeth@reddit
Man I am 3.9 versions behind!
SkoomaDentist@reddit
Back when Raymond Chen still used to write mostly good and interesting articles.
Ranger207@reddit
The time between Windows 95 and this article (12 years) is shorter than the time between this article and today (18 years)
Mortomes@reddit
Nonsense. 2007 isn't that long ago. I'm not that old, you're old!
-jp-@reddit
If the Little Mermaid were a real person she’d be 52. She was 16 in the movie. Haaaave fun with that.
lunchmeat317@reddit
:-(
SkoomaDentist@reddit
The 80s only ended 20 years ago.
gxslim@reddit
I had the same gut reaction but mine was windows 95 isnt that long ago
yopla@reddit
Wow... That took me far back...
Silent-Treat-6512@reddit
When you realized that was just 2007 but also then you realize that was also 18 years ago.. many people reading here were not even born then
bmoregeo@reddit
Agreed, fellow slashdot reader
Paul__miner@reddit
When I was a kid, hooking interrupts was my jam 😅
ShinyHappyREM@reddit
Of course... How else were games supposed to get fast keyboard access?
SkoomaDentist@reddit
Or reliable timer.
kopkaas2000@reddit
Raspberry.. Only one man would do that!
iwinulose@reddit
LONESTAR
Supuhstar@reddit
"What was the role of the NT kernel in Windows 10?"
AutomateAway@reddit
It was how you played the best IBM-Compatible PC games
netsysllc@reddit
The good games were on amiga
ShinyHappyREM@reddit
Until DOOM.
netsysllc@reddit
yea that was at the end of Amiga, commodore was already falling apart and failed to have lower end models with sufficient CPUs, while PC's finally started to get some power, graphics and sound. Like many companies, lack of keeping up with a changing world doomed them.
gxslim@reddit
Still have mine in the garage
mgonzo@reddit
You aren't wrong, minus dune II. Did they have that on Amiga? Honestly question I don't recall. My brother had a flight sim on Amiga it was awesome
scobes@reddit
It was on Amiga as well.
mgonzo@reddit
Well hot damn
squigs@reddit
Was Windows 95 still booted from DOS? I thought they'd avoided that stage.
ShinyHappyREM@reddit
Yes it booted DOS first. You could even edit the startup configuration file
msdos.systo stop it from loading Windows afterconfig.sysandautoexec.bathad been processed.I used to edit
config.systo include the lineDOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTOto disable the automatic loading of certain helper programs, then loaded them explicitly in theconfig.sys. Some of these helper programs were only needed for Windows, so when you just wanted to play a DOS game you could e.g. skip loadingIFSHLP.SYSand get more conventional RAM (closer to the 640 KiB limit).hutthuttindabutt@reddit
2007 article? Downvote.
AlexKazumi@reddit
Why? It is a great technical article!
ketralnis@reddit (OP)
Yeah those details about Windows 95 sure are changing all of the time
hutthuttindabutt@reddit
Got any articles about Jaz drives you can’t post next?
ketralnis@reddit (OP)
Don’t threaten me with a good time
BlueGoliath@reddit
You didn't know? Microsoft introduced Copilot as part of a new service pack.
differentshade@reddit
Windows 95 is a shell for dos
AlexKazumi@reddit
No, it wasn't. The relationship between Windows and DOS was very complex and complicated. Somethings were implemented by DOS, some - by Windows, some - by both, and some - mirrored in the two worlds.
It is possible for enterprising developers to write a lot of VXD kernel modules for Win95 and it will become completely independent of DOS (providing someone rewrote win.com to also bootstrap it).
drcforbin@reddit
Raymond Chen is a national treasure
You_Wen_AzzHu@reddit
PowerShell
zenverak@reddit
So they I learn how to full path launch games
foulandamiss@reddit
Windows ME ftw
StarkAndRobotic@reddit
Allowing one to play ms-dos games