Why is noir genre and settings spiritually tied to Los Angeles?
Posted by FragWall@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 99 comments
I find it odd that a genre that is steeped in mystery, shadowy and gloomy atmosphere is often tied to sunny and sprawling Los Angeles which is the total opposite of what constitutes mysterious, shadowy and gloomy environment.
Why is this?
hohner1@reddit
Funny, I think of LA as characterless and smog ridden. I suppose I am probably wrong about that but that is just what descriptions I heard made it seem like.
LadyDriverKW@reddit
I think the people who mention Raymond Chandler are partially right. But don't forget that he wasn't the only writer who placed his stories in California. Dashiell Hammett (The Maltese Falcon) placed his stories in San Francisco. Ross MacDonald put Lew Archer in Santa Teresa (Ventura/Santa Barbara). That said, if you read pre-war pulp fiction, plenty of stories take place in other cities.
The thing that really connected noir to LA is that it was popular during the golden age of Hollywood when the majority of movies were filmed in southern California. If the movie industry had settled somewhere else, then we would probably associate noir with that place.
A common noir theme is deception. People are always falling for illusions and betraying each other. Where better to explore that theme than Los Angeles, the home of Hollywood?
Here is my favorite story opening, from Red Wind by Raymond Chandler. It is a weather description that isn't gloomy but captures the noir feeling.
linds3ybinds3y@reddit
Raymond Chandler was an Angeleno who wrote a lot of noir fiction set in Los Angeles (The Big Sleep, The Lady in the Lake, etc.), and a lot of his books are now considered classics. So he may be bumping the numbers up for LA. He also helped write some pretty famous noir screenplays, like Double Indemnity.
If you take Chandler out of the equation, though, other writers often set their stories elsewhere. The Maltese Falcon is set in San Francisco. The Thin Man is set in NYC.
One_Advantage793@reddit
The Raymond Chandler connection is the answer.
Jack_of_Spades@reddit
The Thin Man has the most adorable movie couple I have ever seen.
yscken@reddit
Well for one California is known for having alot of cults and weird killings of those such, also the black dahlia happened there in the early 1900s when Hollywood was about to take off
DougOsborne@reddit
If you haven't been to L.A., you don't know how noir we are.
Nights can be wild. Lots of neon. Crime has always been around. Police have always been corrupt.
And yes, the writers, producers and studios were here, and that makes it a lot easier to set the movies here.
TheOldBooks@reddit
LA is a very classic setting for it but so is NYC, SF, and other major cities. I don't think it's particularly to LA.
LowCress9866@reddit
When I think noir my first thought is The Maltese Falcon and San Francisco, but Chinatown is shortly after that in my mind
Arleare13@reddit
Is that true? I'm not sure that's really accurate.
QuietObserver75@reddit
Yes I think of those places too.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
It is true and accurate. I can't even think of a classic period noir set in Chicago rn. Maybe the harder they fall counts. I can rattle off like 20 set in LA and maybe 5 in NYC
offensivename@reddit
Well, Capone was in Chicago, so there are films that capitalize on that history. The James Cagney movie The Public Enemy is one example. But Chicago isn't the first setting I think of eothe.
KinsellaStella@reddit
I associate Chicago with noir.
sysaphiswaits@reddit
Yeah. I associate Chicago with noir. Maybe OP’s association with L.A. is because that’s where so many movies are made. So, all the movies look like Los Angeles.
ucbiker@reddit
Noir films aren’t just filmed in LA, it’s a very prominent setting.
Classics wise Philip Marlowe books (and the movies based on him) are LA-based and Chinatown is set in LA. Who Framed Roger Rabbit? is also set in LA and a lot of neo-noir films are also set in LA like LA Confidential (obviously), Drive, and Inherent Vice.
It’s a good setting for noir.
FragWall@reddit (OP)
L.A. Confidential is also part of a series. Other books are The Black Dahlia, The Big Nowhere and White Jazz all took place in LA.
StupidLemonEater@reddit
The Black Dahlia is kind of cheating; that was a real crime that happened in L.A.
Excellent_Speech_901@reddit
Which itself implies that LA was a good setting for that kind of thing.
sysaphiswaits@reddit
Huh. Good point.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
No if anything this is the opposite. Chicago only gets noir vibes from the architecture, which is super dope art deco & gothic style skyscrapers - super noirish. But i can barely think of a single classic film noir set there. Meanwhile there's literally hundreds set in LA
FragWall@reddit (OP)
Not just any movie but specifically noir mystery genre.
sysaphiswaits@reddit
Yes. Most movies. Including most Noir movies.
Old_Promise2077@reddit
For some reason I always thought that Duck Tracy was set in LA.. but after cursory googling that doesn't appear to be so.
HairyDadBear@reddit
Yeah Noir takes me to NYC meoe than anything. Though there are many in LA.
Catalina_Eddie@reddit
Some of it has to do with the German expressionist filmakers that came in the 1930s fleeing the Nazis. A large part was the rampant corruption within the city, especially the LAPD (pay for a position, firebombing critics, and more) that coupled with The Depression and WWII created a great sense of cynicism and despair.
All set in one of the most beautiful backdrops you can imagine.
bizoticallyyours83@reddit
I usually associate it with the east coast because of the accents.
Icy_Peace6993@reddit
Part of the noir ethos is that the world is much darker than it seems at first glance. I love LA, but it's hard to deny that it epitomizes "darker than it seems at first glance".
friendly_reminder8@reddit
I lived in LA for 5 years, the city has a ton a very seedy undercurrent. Every crime and vice imaginable and despite the sunny weather, it can be a very isolating and unusual place
Mokaleek@reddit
It reminds me of the lyric from 'Los Angeles is Burning' by Bad Religion: "You can't deny the living is easy, if you never look behind the scenery"
FragWall@reddit (OP)
I don't get what you meant here. What does the saying "darker than it seems at first glance" means? What do you meant by you loving LA but find it hard to deny that the city epitomise the saying?
lincolnhawk@reddit
Look up Vernon CA and the true detective S2 opening credits for a perfectly concise visual representation of that statement.
Icy_Peace6993@reddit
"Dark" in the film noir sense to me means for example a Hollywood starlet is unbelievably gorgeous, with the sweetest voice you can ever imagine, but she was raised in an abusive environment, and now she sees men as marks, to be exploited in every way possible, including ending their lives. A gorgeous Beverly Hills mansion with lush gardens and century-old trees that becomes the site of a brutal quadruple murder perpetuated by a cult led by a psychotic but also charismatic cult leader. The theme is always surface-level beauty but underneath there's all of the horrors and dramas that you can imagine.
LA epitomizes that because this is actually where you have unbelievably beautiful Hollywood starlets and unbelievably beautiful Beverly Hills homes, but if you think that's "LA", you have another thing coming!
wizardyourlifeforce@reddit
Yeah:
*looking at Chicago and NYC during the noir period*
"Ok, this is really dark at first glance."
Capistrano9@reddit
LA Confidential is actually a perfect example of this. The disillusionment of what Los Angeles really can be
birdinbrain@reddit
You’re right. From here on out, I think detective novels should only be set in the FOGGIEST places in the country. Gumshoes stalking the hard streets of checks map Point Reyes, California and Cape Disappointment, Washington
BigNutsOnClark@reddit
The Black Dahlia.
cluttersky@reddit
Los Angeles because of Raymond Chandler, but any city can be made noir. Body Heat was in a generic Florida beach town, not in Miami.
okraspberryok@reddit
Because 'film noir' is just german expressionism films mixed with plots from raymond chandler/dashiell hammett and they set a lot of their stories there.
cdb03b@reddit
I think of Chicago or New York not Los Angeles.
Gyvon@reddit
I'd say it's more tied to Chicago or NYC
Suppafly@reddit
I think it's just a big city thing more so than an LA thing, but probably all the old timey ones used LA since the writers were from that area.
TTRoadHog@reddit
The Maltese Falcon was set in San Francisco.
alienliegh@reddit
Cause L.A fits that genre and was created around that city around the time of I think the roaring 20's.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
No, that's not right
alienliegh@reddit
Yes it is. Not going to argue about it either.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
Oh welp ah you already are though like that's actually what you're doing right now
alienliegh@reddit
No, you felt the need to comment like I wanted to hear your opinion 🤷🏻 just cause I commented doesn't mean I want people to try and correct me. So just go on your mary way 👌🏻
GRIFTY_P@reddit
Hey uh you're uh actually uh you're arguing about it right now actually
alienliegh@reddit
Only cause you keep replying did you forget to turn your brian on 🙄 and what are you 2 😒 acting like a child 🤭
BoolusBoro@reddit
I feel like they’re more often associated with NYC, there’s just the one game called LA noir lol
GRIFTY_P@reddit
Nah there's also like half the major films associated with the genre
airynothing1@reddit
Arguably the most influential hardboiled/noir writer of all time was Raymond Chandler, whose works were -pretty much always set in L.A.
Warmasterwinter@reddit
I really wish they would have made a sequel for that game.
suffaluffapussycat@reddit
There’s good French noir
BoolusBoro@reddit
French Noir 🤤🤤
InevitableStruggle@reddit
SF joined the chat
Leutenant-obvious@reddit
or Chicago.
TheOldBooks@reddit
I'd say it's about equal, lot of noir stuff set in LA but same with a few other big American cities
GulliasTurtle@reddit
Is it? I always think of noir as being in San Francisco, since that is where Sam Spade and by extension a lot of the radio detectives of the 30s. LA has Chinatown, but that came quite a bit later.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
It is yeah. LA. It's honestly like 1:1 between LA and every other city
Agile_Property9943@reddit
I would say more so NYC and Chicago than LA
GRIFTY_P@reddit
Nope
BeautifulSundae6988@reddit
It's not.
Noire film is, because early Hollywood made movies during peak noire.
If there was one city tied to noire, it's probably NYC.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
Wrong
webbess1@reddit
Is it? I always associate it with NYC.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
It is
StupidLemonEater@reddit
There are a few noir movies set in Los Angeles but I certainly wouldn't say they're "spiritually tied" to that city more than any other.
GRIFTY_P@reddit
Incorrect
Miserable-Lawyer-233@reddit
Budget. LA is right there. Don’t have to travel somewhere to shoot.
BrainFartTheFirst@reddit
This. Crime Wave starring Stirling Hayden was filmed in Burbank, Glendale, and Los Angeles.
All places in the 30 mile zone that dictated crew pay scale.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_zone
Indiana_Jawnz@reddit
As other's have said Noir is definately not just tied to LA, and other cities show up very frequently in the genre, specifically Chicago, NYC, San Fran.
Also as other's have said LA is right there where movies are made, so it's easy to make movies there, but that's not it.
LA in the 1940s-1950s was basically a boom town and the shining example of the new, modern American city. It isn't a picture of dirty alleyways, slums, and towering skyscrapers in the cold and damp that you get with old US cities like NY or Chicago. LA was sleek, sunny, modern, sprawling. It was progress and optimism itself, so you get to juxtopose that with the inherent;y dark, seedy, subversive plots on Noir films. The shiny city on the hill vs the dark underbelly.
It makes for good narrative.
bimboheffer@reddit
I think LA was interesting at the time because it was so new. New York and Chicago had established power structures, and as interesting as the mob and related rotten institutions were, they were familiar. LA had new institutions arising, and the city itself was growing so fast. It attracted low people who were on the outs elsewhere -- still does -- and people in power were new types -- people in media or people figuring out how to make money from empty land. LA was rotten because it was new.
MeepleMerson@reddit
Noir is typically (not always) set against a gritty urban backdrop of corruption, decadence, or high society.
Any major city will do, but popular ones are LA, San Francisco, Chicago, and New York -- Boston too, for the Lehane fans. LA hits because it has a reputation for glitz (Hollywood) but also of drugs, power brokering, and a seamy underbelly of intrigue that is brooding and dark when you pull back the curtain. LA noir is almost a genre in and of itself.
Current_Poster@reddit
Noir's more of a mood. Hollywood noir movies (even the niche productions) tend, unsurprisingly, to stay near Los Angeles.
lincolnhawk@reddit
LA has always had deep dark corners and crevasses beneath the gilded surface, and is where movies were historically shot.
No-Entrepreneur5672@reddit
LA can actually get quite gloomy.
Look up marine layer (may gray/jume gloom) DTLA is eerie at night due its desolation, and has a very distinct vibe (think Drive or Collateral) And LA was a (slightly) different beast 100 years ago with conditions ripe for those types of stories, as well as novelists like Chandler and others leaving a distinct mark on the genre.
PickleJuiceMartini@reddit
What are some classic noir films outside of the USA? My go to is The Third Man from Vienna, Austria.
SlipRevolutionary433@reddit
LA, New York, and Chicago are prime destinations because noir is essentially an urban genre in the traditional format, and these are America’s biggest cities historically. L.A. happened to have a lot of the first Noir pulp writers setting stories there. L.A. has a lot of the essential ingredients of noir built into itself nicely. High class disparity, dramatics in the upper crust elite, a long history of complex organized crime politics, a famously corrupt police force with multiple active deputy gangs at any given time, iconic and rich visuals most Americans would recognize from film, considered traditionally to be a bit more loose than the east coast. If you look past the weather the town is ripe with moneyed drama and desperate dames trying to find out how to crack it, perfect for a private investigator to get over his head in style
Athrynne@reddit
Because Raymond Chandler mostly invented the Hard Boiled Detective genre, and set his Philip Marlowe stories in Los Angeles.
NomadLexicon@reddit
Also James Cain’s crime novels
wizardyourlifeforce@reddit
God those are such good books. I reread them frequently. And even after rereading them I still have very little idea of what actually happened, which I felt bad enough until I heard apparently Chandler didn't really know either.
rawbface@reddit
Could this perception be tied to the video game L.A. Noire? I think New York, Chicago, and a few European cities like Paris get featured in Noir, but Hollywood is in L.A.
NomadLexicon@reddit
I’d say it’s the reverse—LA Noire was set there because LA and California are so strongly associated with the noir genre (mainly because of writers like Raymond Chandler, James Cain, and Dashiell Hammett)
Shiny_Mew76@reddit
I always thought it was more so London and Chicago?
hollowbolding@reddit
the short answer is vampires the masquarade bloodlines but the longer answer is that it isn't, you're just having your perception warped by vtmb
stolenfires@reddit
A theme in noir is institutional corruption and holy jeebus was Los Angeles corrupt during the 1930s - the popular era to set noir in.
hatred-shapped@reddit
When the stories were invited morphine was still very popular (and legal,)
Pristine-Pen-9885@reddit
Because that’s where Hollywood and the back lots are.
PedalSteelBill2@reddit
Because the major writers who worked in that genre also worked in hollywood and so they were based in LA.
wizardyourlifeforce@reddit
The greatest noir writer of all time, Raymond Chandler, set his stories in L.A. and that had a big impact on the genre. He is to noir crime fiction what Tolkien is to epic fantasy.
Whole_Ad_4523@reddit
It’s where they made the films. And it’s not sunny at night
TheBlazingFire123@reddit
When I think of Noir I think of New York
tortie_shell_meow@reddit
Police in LA were incredibly corrupt in the 20s-50s, there was some reform but we’re back at it in the modern day (to the point that KKK card carrying members who are tatted up in KKK symbols are serving on the force and in the open). Location weather and setting doesn’t define noir genre. Just the darkness of the soul and themes.
hypo-osmotic@reddit
I think there's a sort of subgenre of Noir that intersects with the aesthetics of the golden and silver ages of Hollywood, so those stories will obviously be in or near LA. But more broadly it fits in with any major city
machagogo@reddit
I don't think this assessment is true. Tons of examples of this in NY, San Francisco, Chicago through the years.
kidthorazine@reddit
Well the obvious answer is because that's where the film industry is based and a lot of movies that just have to take place in a city end up taking place in LA for logistical reasons. This was especially true during the heyday of film noir.
Adjective-Noun123456@reddit
When I think film noir I think of New York.
nomoregroundhogs@reddit
If you’re specifically asking about film noir I have to imagine it’s because a lot of it was filmed there