It's why I never plan on buying an American car again. I have a Chevy Cruze, which I love, but after that, I'm going with either Mazda, Honda, or Subaru for my next car. I haven't decided yet, but it'll most likely be Mazda.
Because barely anyone bought them when they were for sale. America is killing small cars for the rest of the world unfortunately. Big trucks and big SUVs
This most popular vehicle in the US is the Toyota Rav4 which is not big. It's slightly bigger than a Ford Focus hatch sure (I've owned both), but it's not like we're talking about a Ford Expedition here.
I'm asking seriously, do people in other countries just never do things like move or home projects? I've found myself wishing I had bought a truck instead of a smaller SUV because I had to make two trips to Home Depot to haul back some mulch for my garden. I actually had a Civic Hatchback for a while but converted to SUV when I saw how much more stuff I could get into my wife's Rav4 (which isn't that big of an SUV).
I'm asking seriously, not trying to be an ass, but what do people in other countries? If they need mulch for their garden do they get someone to deliver it? Same for any other home project?
I will say you can get an impressive amount of stuff in a Focus ST, I had a Focus ST years ago and I was able to get an Ikea queen size bed into the back. But still, it is convenient to have even a small / mid size SUV vs a hatchback. Are home projects and hauling stuff around something people in other countries just never do, is delivery the usual way to handle this?
I'm asking seriously, do people in other countries just never do things like move or home projects?
Do you buy a car specifically because it's convenient for moving house or that one trip every 2 years to get mulch? I sure don't.
We use trailers for bigger or messier things, a tow hitch is pretty common, even on smaller stuff like for example Audi A3's.
Otherwise we just fold the seats down, you can like you said fit a silly amount of things into a hatchback or better yet a wagon.
but converted to SUV when I saw how much more stuff I could get into my wife's Rav4 (which isn't that big of an SUV).
Funny because the only SUV I've owned was actually pretty small inside, first gen X3.
My Civic hatchback (5 door FN) that I had before it felt larger inside, far more usable space at least, could even fold the seat bottoms up.
Wagons are also usually larger inside than the "equivalent" SUV, and they're quite popular here still, at least on the used market because most brands have stopped selling anything that isn't a CUV or SUV.
But still, it is convenient to have even a small / mid size SUV vs a hatchback.
All the ones I've looked at have been pretty small inside.
or is it that delivery the usual way to handle this?
Delivery is an option but places like IKEA just lend you a boxtrailer which is usually more than enough.
That is interesting, IKEA here definitely does not lend you a trailer. Hauling stuff around can be way more often than "every couple of years", realistically I have to haul stuff around several times a year, especially since I bought a house. Before that, yea it wasn't often.
The Rav4 is nice because I can put my bike in the back, I have a trailer hitch bike rack but I didn't like leaving it on all the time when I lived in an apartment, kinda for two reasons, it blocked the backup camera and I also just didn't want to get my 600 dollar bike rack stolen out of the parking garage. So, I mainly just used it on road trips. If I was taking my bike somewhere around town it was nice to be able to just throw it into the back.
I don't think I could justify owning anything bigger than Rav4 while living in an apartment, there is no a reason genuinely. But owning a home, especially our big American homes on big American lots, you really need to do a lot of shit to keep maintained (or pay people exorbitant prices to keep it maintained). Like I said, I've found myself wishing I had a truck more than once.
I'd just get a trailer honestly, though with the state of the US I doubt you can even get a sensibly sized trailer, much like how you can't really get a sensibly sized car lol
Did they not? I mean sure, the Taurus and maybe Fiesta weren't great sellers (though idk about unprofitable), but the Fusion and Focus sold like hot cakes iirc, especially for fleets. The issue iirc wasn't that they weren't making money, it's that they weren't making enough money. SUVs and trucks have wider profit margins, so they forced everyone into that segment.
Yep you hit the nail on the head, they were selling, just not with enough pork rolled into them. Ironically though, Ford is actually looking into getting back into the sedan game in a “Mustang” sedan, but the hot hatch seems dead for the foreseeable future.
With the M5 Touring selling better than the M5 in the USA, maybe the trend is turning, at least at the higher end.
I’m a firm believer that hatches and wagons would have become just as popular as crossovers if it weren’t for the CAFE regulations penalizing their “car” platform. Sedan to crossovers consumers want better cargo room and family utility. They don’t care about driving dynamics. If the option were better gas mileage and price for the same cargo utility, the only thing a crossover gives you is ride height at a cost of lower fuel efficiency and higher price.
CAFE warped the market, pushing the cost of cars higher as the MPG requirements are artificially higher. People will look back on this era of the car industry the way they look back on the malaise era. Terrible cars designed for compliance over function.
What is weird go me is so many young people are not wanting children but still want family vehicles. Makes no sense they still want the suvs their parents had.
What's even weirder to me is how people see something the size of a Golf as something not big enough for a family. Sure, you won't fit more than 3 kids in there, but do most families even have 2 kids? My old mk4 was enough to take me and my parents on trips to Italy and Germany. The old workhorse has been capable of doing anything I needed except carrying furniture. So even a wagon seems a bit larger than what you'd usually need, but then that's mostly my preference for a shorter car speaking. I'd much rather see the road dominated by wagons rather than the absolute wastes of steel pavement princess SUVs are.
The prevailing thought about cars amongst people I've talked to is that there's so many huge cars so obviously yet another huge SUV is the safest option.
Yup. My dad tells me all the time that he worries about me in my WRX because it's so much smaller than a lot of cars on the road. It's literally become an arms race at this point.
My thought as well, nobody talks about how much more prone they are to tipping over or hitting a pedestrian because they have so much less visibility from their "commanding" seating position.
It's insane. I have an Infiniti QX50 as a rental while I was waiting on my insurance to pay out for my Fiesta, and it felt SO unstable compared to what I was used to.
Yeah I thought for sure young people would reject the "mom SUVs" of their parents the same way their parents rejected the "mom wagons" and "mom vans" of their parents. As the other commenter points out though, we are at a point where the market that young people are buying from barely has options other than CUVs/SUVs.
Sedan to crossovers consumers want better cargo room and family utility
They don't really provide that in a meaningful way though. Most of the extra volume in a crossover is rear headroom. Legroom is the same (or worse in some cases), it has the same number of seats, and cargo space is typically pretty similar, with maybe the crossover having space for an extra suitcase because you can stack above the rear headrests.
I don't think a high performance sedans sales figures are going to be indictive of consumer trends for the vast majority of the population, especially people in the market for Fiestas and Foci
Ah my bad. I thought the person i was reacting to talked about worldwide not us market only. Yeah i understand why such a car isnt popular there. But in Europe they were big.
A hatch can at times have a sloped rear roofline which means less headroom for the rear passengers. There also some extremely good driving sedans out there.
The first example I looked up was the 2019 FiST and that has 39.1" of front headroom and 37.2" in the rear. And I just measured myself from the chair to the top of my head and it's 37.75", which means I would fit in the front but not the rear
Depends on the use case for a sedan vs hatch. I used to love my old hatches but my current sedan is 100% more practical for baby hauling duties. All that vertical space becomes pretty much useless for my needs, but having one half of the trunk be a dedicated space to easily slide a stroller into kicks ass instead of having to play Jenga with a hatchback trunk.
Wagons on the other hand are the undisputed GOAT. I miss my Passat wagon every day (when it actually worked).
I hate the new trend of “subbrands.” To me it’s only for 3 purposes: part sharing, marketing, don’t have to pay designers as much. The Mach E is actually nice but it didn’t need to be attached to the Mustang. It would have taken Ford more resources to actually give it an identity which is why they didn’t.
If Ford were going to use an iconic marque for their fancy EV-SUV Thunderbird is literally right there - unused for the better part of 2 decades but still well recognized.
While it would probably still have some backlash from people the T-bird has been all kinds of shapes and sizes over the years already so it isn't nearly as weird as seeing that name on an SUV compared to Mustang which has always been the same kind of car since its inception.
if they were willing to bring back maverick i dont see why they couldnt call the mach-e a thunderbird. something else i dont understand is where is the lincoln version of the mach-e platform? if they need to sell more evs at higher margins, they do, well there ya go. same for an ev navigator or expedition.
If Mustang just becomes their whole range of cars as opposed to stupid fugly SUVs, I'm not going to know what to think...
That's the only way it really makes sense to me. Do what Dodge did with RAM and make "Mustang" a brand in itself. But I'm not sure if that was really a successful move for Dodge, if consumers even noticed the change, if it would work for Ford, or even why Ford would be eager to have another brand under their umbrella after selling off so many of the ones they owned in the mid 00's.
Seriously, they already have the Bronco name to spread across their SUV lineup, along with quite a few recognizable sedan models. Bastardizing the mustang name is so lame.
The reason they are choosing the Mustang is because they can profit off the V8 (and easily make it a $50k car instead of a $35k hot hatch). Short term it’s a good idea but in 4 years will the market and EPA standards be the same?
I had a 2014 fusion titanium hybrid and loved it. At the time my brother had a 2013 BMW 330i and I'd take the fusion over the 330i any day of the week. Interior was better quality, no rattles or squeaks the entire time I had it for like 5 years, and better technology than the bmw.
That generation of Ford hybrids was great, but they didn't sell very well. People were very skeptical of Ford hybrids at the time, but they held up really well. The C-Max hybrid was a really good car too but They shut themselves in the foot by making it kind of ugly and not advertising it like at all.
They were no longer leading their segments in sales but the narrative that nobody was buying them is completely false. It's also silly because it wasn't even the narrative Ford used, they explicitly said they'd rather sell less cars for more profit per car and that's why they were switching to SUVs. Then the entire internet said "Huh, I guess nobody likes sedans anymore"
Nope, 500k people bought Fusion/Focus/Fiesta/Taurus when they were cancelled. Ford would rather just sell less volume and make more profit.
Yeah, people act like this is pure consumer preference, but the auto makers absolutely kept a finger on the scale by eg, locking AWD and tech packages behind the crossover gate.
Owner of a 15' Fiesta who knows nothing about cars: I love that damn thing so much and im so sad that i cant get a new one when Frankie dies. I got it about 2 years ago and it instantly became my favorite car I've had so far.
i love my cmax. i dont want an escape or ecosport. the cmax is a road trip machine as well as great for commuting. i love my mpv hybrid thing. theres really not much that fits this that isnt a cuv.
Subcompacts were a hard sell. They weren’t cheap enough or fuel efficient enough. That’s why the focus always did better. There was more value. There were smaller differences between sub and compact class than there are compact to midsize class.
see, you can thank safety regs for that (no really, DO thank them, they keep your ass safe)
but if you looked at older subcompats like older nissan sentras, like the one we had a third gen, it was 2,288 lbs and significantly lighter than the same era altima that was a mid sized car at 2,990 lbs
but once you take some leap forward to when safety got hammered in, like say a late gen fiesta vs focus, you are talking about a 2,617–2,793 lb fiesta vs 2,722.7–3,346.6 lb focus and part of that is all the safety features you HAVE to add, like crumple zones beyond your knees and additional stiffing that if you compare a modern car to older ones may as well be like having a roll cage for the driver right
I had a 2014 Fiesta with the 5spd manual for ten years. I loved that car! It gave it's life protecting me from an extremely stupid deer on the highway, or I'd still be driving it.
Man, mine was a pile of dog shit. The most unreliable little fucker ever built. That being said, I was sad to get rid of her. She moved with the grace of a god when she decided to start.
Ugh thats so sad to hear. She's a beast. This is going to sound silly, but I havent figured out the S gear yet. Like i said i kniw nothing about cars. I am afraid to do it wrong and fuck it up. She's fast tho and she's allegedly hits 100 easy. I want to use tho lol. The only issue I have right now is that my hood sensor is busted and keeps thinking my hood is being popped. I called my mechanic to get a new part. My poor neighbors. My car alarm has been randomly going off for weeks
The $7200 I dropped on my 2014 Fi3sta three-banger turbo manual is the best automotive investment I’ve ever made. Hauled in $100K delivering groceries through the pandemic. Lifetime average 40 MPG.
Ford needs to build something in volume to keep Blue Oval City busy. It won’t be F150s. Affordable Fords will return one day.
I've got a 2011 Fiesta myself, lime green peppy little bugger, my first car. Been through hell but starts up every time and sits quite happily theoretically at 110mph. When my lean mean green machine dies a part of my heart will as well.
It didn’t help that the the Focus and Fiesta had horrible transmissions the last generation in the USA. They were Nissan bad and made the news of it being a cover up. https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money/cars/ford/2019/07/11/ford-focus-fiesta-transmission-defect/1671198001/
At the time they were executing this move, I worked for a Tier 1 supplier and a Ford engineer did tell me that they were in the hole on the Fusion program overall because they weren’t making enough on each sale / enough sales to pay off the tooling costs. It was in the context of him telling us our tooling cost was too high though, so take it with a grain of salt.
Ford is making the same mistakes they made in the past, but now they can't rely on Euro Ford to quickly federalise a small car platform and engine in case market demand shifts that direction because they now did it globally. Heck, Euro Ford is pretty much on its deathbed because none of its crossovers are particularly competitively priced.
The first-gen Pinto had the British-designed Crossflow, which was a major advantage over its GM counterpart.
Trucks sold more than compacts, then SUVs sold more than compacts. Ford made the fiesta and focus for all other markets, except America. Why? Because it doesn’t sell well enough for them to pay the taxes required to sell a model of car.
I thought the Fiesta ST and Focus ST did okay. They were always going to be a niche product and one with a modest profit margin, but they consistently sold as expected. I think the problem is that the non-ST versions didn’t sell well enough to keep the platforms going in the US.
The Focus ST sold a little over 14k units in its launch year in the US (2014) according to forums. At least 12k in 10 months according to journalist sourcing. Apparently my link was banned (car buzz) but you can google.
For comparison, the GTI sold 33k in 2014. That’s an established brand of hot hatch with nearly 30 years of presence and consumer base in the USA. With heavy advertising vs the ST, which largely sold on word of mouth, the popularity of Top Gear UK in the US at the time, and its enthusiast reputation.
Ford could have kept selling the mk4 ST in the US even after they killed the base model. VW did and still does after they killed the base Golf in the states. Ford just… chose not to.
That’s their right. And it’s mine to take my business elsewhere.
It’s a shame. Because the value proposition of the ST vs the GTI in the US was crazy good.
The i30 is the Elantra. They’re the same car. It’s just sold as the Elantra in the US, and they only sell the sedan. It sells well for them.
Hyundai just isn’t very popular in the US enthusiast scene until very recently. They’ve had a very poor brand image in the US for many years. As that changes maybe they’ll open up more variety in their line up. The Elantra N is doing most of that work to change perceptions.
The GTI is the legacy king of the segment. No one outsells them.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, exactly? Sedans aren’t exactly a growth market either in the US, but Hyundai has gone all in on their performance model to try and build their brand. Ford could learn a thing or two.
Yea sucks that they tried to avoid American import taxes to assembling the US ones in the US. Didn't do well at all. The rest of the world get the Turkey and Korean built ones which have been rock solid for decades now. They are the top selling cars in some segments here too.
I was just pointing out that nearly every small cool car isn't released to the US as they won't sell well. i20n, Yaris GR, 135i, S1, Polo GTI etc.
Those are all super small and not really the apples to apples comparison of what has sold well here in the past. The Fiesta ST was a major hit but also kind of the exception that proves the rule. We only got it because we got the Fiesta as a compliance vehicle. A segment cars never sold here aside from the smart car, and B segment cars are all but gone as well— only ever selling well during recessions or oil crises. For whatever reason.
The C segment compact is about as small as the US market has ever really gone. And we do have a good decent lineup of affordable performance cars in that segment without getting into luxury performance money. Elantra N, GR Corolla, GTI, WRX, and Civic Type R. Of those, the Elantra, Corolla and Civic all launched after Ford killed the Focus in the US. They just kind of… surrendered that segment and gave the other manufacturers room. For a while all of the car reviews here said the Fiesta or Focus ST was the best choice for an entry level performance car.
Now unless you want a Mustang or truck, there’s no reason to consider Ford at all.
Literally untrue. When they announced the cancellation of all their cars, they sold 1/4 million fusions and like 170k focuses IN THE US. Fiesta and Taurus were slightly lower, but all car sales combined was like 600k units. The fusion was their best selling model behind the escape and f series, selling as well as the explorer.
Other OEMs would kill for that kind of unit volume. Ford’s decision was 100% based on profit margin. They wanted to only sell high margin products and leave volume, economy cars to other OEMs. Had almost nothing to do with sales.
It sucks but it makes sense. You have finite resources. Should you spend it on the vehicle with the small margins or the one with the big margins (if you are confident it will sell either way)?
Finite being plants especially. The Fiesta plant now builds the Mach E, the Fusion plant builds the Maverick and Bronco Sport, and the Focus plant builds the Bronco and Ranger.
Chicago turned their Taurus capacity into Aviator capacity (with room for some additional Explorer capacity.
This decision has aged like milk, too. The trucks have higher margins, but they ramped up prices to the point that most Ford vehicles that people want are too expensive. Their lots are piling up, and Ford now lags behind most of its competitors in production and stocks.
The cheapest Ford vehicle is about $30k, while all of the top automakers currently offer vehicles in the $20k range. Ford is one of the few brands that doesn't have any cheaper models to pivot to as the economy worsens. Ford isn't going broke, obviously, but it seems clear to me that between recalls and their pricing, Ford is missing out on sales. Their vehicles aren't as easy to sell anymore.
They don’t care conceding a market with little to no margin to competitors when 90% of their global profits come from the f-series. In 2023 69% of their adjusted EBIT was from their commercial division Ford Pro
It’s not that they’re not going broke it’s that saying their decision “aged like milk” is objectively wrong
THIS. I really didn’t understand their thinking. Especially, when you look at their sales figures now. The Maverick and Bronco Sport are not selling in those numbers to replace the sales of focus/fusion. Which I thought wad the point. And the fusion in particular covers a lot of the same price point of those two vehicles. I really don’t understand how the Fusion didn’t make any money. It was also just a better vehicle. More reliable imo. I always thought they should have kept the focused or done what Honda has done and made Focus a car that straddled the compact and midsize segments and offer it in different flavors-sedan, hatchback, wagon and lifted hatchback (like Crosstrek).
The Maverick and Bronco Sport are not selling in those numbers to replace the sales of focus/fusion.
Because people who want a normal car don't want a pickup truck or a hideous SUV, they want something that feels enjoyable to drive and isn't too bad on fuel.
Also, profit margins are bullshit. That goes both ways. So they're basically saying our trucks and SUV's are marked up too high, which is obvious since the price of an F150 is astronomically high. They could've also just come in and marked up their car prices too to make the same margins, or lower the trucks to sell even more. Canceling successful lines of vehicles that people want and love because of profit margin is full on BS.
Yep. I'd pay more for a normal car than some stupid SUV if I really, really had to. I'll save that money in fuel costs over its lifetime, and get that money's worth out of actually enjoying driving it.
Ford sold over 1.3M mk3 focus in United States alone. And that was even with a well documented deeply flawed transmission that would grenade within a year or two
So the Rav4 outsold the F150 last year. Should Ford now pack it up? Lol. Just because you are number 1 in the industry across all models and types doesn’t mean the vehicle isn’t successful. The focus was successful. Ford is just greedy and only cares about short term gaines
Their sales in f trucks grew, SUVs grew, while garages sold less, do you understand how the cost of selling cars in the United States works? Many manufacturers don’t want to waste the money just to be able to sell a model in the United States, after taxes for a certain model, it is often not feasible. America tries its hardest to make selling a low volume car too expensive
Well, yeah, but what about people who DIDN'T buy them????? /s
Truck owner here, would be nice to have a fun hatch or sedan too. But I can't afford to spend a million dollars on cars to have something like that. Even sticking with a Ford example, there were instances of US dealers trying to sell the RS for nearly 100k after dealer markups. The used market for them is still bonkers with some listed for near original MSRP with modest miles on them.
It’s not that no one bought them. Ford didn’t make enough profit on them. At it’s height the Ford Fusion sold 306k. The last full year of production I believe was 2019 and they sold 166k. Look at their current roster of “affordable”. Escape, Maverick and Bronco Sport. Only one (Escape) beats the Fusion last year of sales. Maverick and Bronco Sport are nowhere near the sales of Fusion. I would also like to point out that adjusted for inflation the Fusion covers a lot of the price point of these vehicles. I think Ford’s problem is bad engineering (causing recalls) and bad business management. How can Honda be as successful as it is and produce more cars in America that are reliable for the same price and can make an argument for cars. Because they are simply better at business.
America is killing small cars for the rest of the world unfortunately.
China is keeping them alive, and the RoW doesn’t seem quite as apprehensive of them as NA. Ultimately NA will be left behind with stupid oversized trucks and the RoW will use what works best.
They (manufacturers) also don’t market these cars anymore. Like at all. Ford spends WAYYYYY more time marketing the Mustang electric with the tagline “The Best way to Mustang” (or the only, can’t remember which) vs the ICE mustang.
Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion.
No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered.
You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence.
Do you have a degree in that field?
A college degree? In that field?
Then your arguments are invalid.
No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation.
Correlation does not equal causation.
CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION.
You still haven't provided me a valid source yet.
Nope, still haven't.
I just looked through all 308 pages of your user history, figures I'm debating a glormpf supporter. A moron
Like seriously? I need a source on the Chinese spying on you through software in their products? Let’s use our heads a little bit.
Chinese brands, which include Volvo, have been certified and sold in Europe for a decade now. BYD, Xaiomi, and Geely have leap frogged western cars and are filling the affordable gap left behind by US automakers. They are also gunning for the top end of the martlet.
Chances are your phone and home appliances are also made in China and none have caught fire, been caught evading regulations (looking at you Boeing) or building pedestrian crushing trucks (GM, Ford, Ram).
If communists won't rule China then sure, maybe i'll consider, but: Chinese companies are scummy, they embrace slavery, there's no parts available, most of chinese vehicles are unreliable, they're not ecological. So that's a major no no from me. What i'm looking for instead is a future with EU.
I just drove a rental Chinese "suv" in Costa Rica for a week. It was no exaggeration the worst vehicle I've ever been in. In all fairness it was a rental seeing mixed asphalt and dirt roads.
There are better ones though. Take a look at one of Byds YangWang ones. Not the jumpy supercar but there is another one which is this huge SUV with a generator and insane luxury feature.
Ford apparently thought the Bronco was gonna be this huge revitalization to challenge Jeep. But it turns out that everyone who wanted one got one in the first few years and now no one is buying them anymore. They can’t move them and have dialed back production. Wouldn’t surprise me if they switch to order only
But yeah. Every year since launch they’ve gotten more and more expensive and the price is pushing it for the quality now. I got a base model for roughly 30k in 2022. That same thing costs upper 40s now. And the top of the line has gotten worse.
I have no idea why someone would want to spend damn near $70k and still have a hard plastic interior and some other low quality decisions throughout the vehicle
Honestly I think this is because we are so fat. I have done zero research to back this point up but it makes sense big people want bigger vehicles to do non big vehicle tasks.
I worked at a Ford dealership for 6 months. The only new car that remained on that lot for my entire duration there was a single Ford Fiesta. Turnaround times mean everything in car sales. How long is the car on the lot before it's sold? For the Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion, that length of time was dramatically longer than everything else.
It wasn't just that crossovers, SUVs were already well on their way to supplanting sedans and econoboxes either. Management would tell sales staff not to worry too much about learning the ins and outs of our cars because people are interested in getting an econobox or mid-size sedan would likely test drive the equivalent Honda at our Honda dealership next door (same owners as the Ford dealer) since they were so much better. And having driven a lot of vehicles from both Ford and Honda back to back during training, I would agree that the Fit, Civic, and Accord were infinitely better than the Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion at the time.
No they didn't. I bought a Focus ST in 2016 brand new for $19k. They marked it down almost $6k off MSRP because it sat on the lot. This was shortly before Ford canned cars in the US.
They absolutely did sell. And they sold decent numbers in NA considering they are manual only. I bought my 2017 ST in 2019 just before the pandemic hit at $21k, it had 37000 km on it. Dealers marked them up to $30k at one point and the RS was over $60k (Canadian dollars). The time you bought in 2016 was a just a blip. Market trends say something completely different than your experience.
You said "no they didn't" to the statement that people bought them and that they marked them down from MSRP because they weren't selling. I said that the opposite is true, because people wanted them, but dealers killed the sales by marking them up. Companies do stupid shit all the time, this is a logical fallacy. This wouldn't be the first or the last time a manufacturer discontinued a car that people want that dealers overprice.
I looked up the best sales year for the Ford Focus in the US since the mk3 was introduced which was 2012 where the Focus sold some 270k units. So you're right that's a big number. However Ford sold 3x as many F-series trucks that year.
But it looks like sales dropped off a cliff later in the 2010s for the Focus so Ford already projected that.
However Ford sold 3x as many F-series trucks that year.
I feel like that's obvious. One is a utility truck and the other is a manual only sports car. But we have come full circle now as this is what the original person you responded to brought up.
Yeah but measuring everything against the F150 would just mean they don’t have a lineup. Ford replaced the Fusion with Maverick and Bronco Sport. Neither sell in the same numbers as the Fusion did and they fill the same price points. It was dumb to ditch the Fusion. Fiesta and Focus I kind of get because they were so cheap, profits were probably small. But even Tesla has a business case for 1 sedan.
I had a 2013 Focus ST3, amazing car until the fuel injection system went to shit at 80K miles. Fucking thing would just completely stall out of nowhere and sold it immediately for a Civic Si
We need cheap, small cars. They meet the needs of most people.
I mean, not me. I need an F150 because sometimes I need to pick up a couple of bags of mulch and I don't want the other guys in the home depot parking lot to make fun of me.
Nobody seems to be buying any Fords. Their sales are down across Europe and killing their hatchback models just seems to be pushing people into the arms of the Koreans and VW - who seem to understand that to sell cars you need to make them.
The C40 is the fiesta replacement, for better or worse.
We both work from home, and my kid and the car seat was getting to be a tight fit in the fiesta. Still have it, but working on selling it. Almost all of my driving these days is to school or for hiking/fishing, so a Miata doesn’t really make sense at the moment.
I had an NA Miata for a while though, wouldn’t mind picking up an ND at some point in a couple years.
I still have my 2014. I was planning on adding the new one to my driveway until they killed them in NA. 2015 - 2018 was just a refresh so basically the same car still so no point since I was keeping the 2014.
Waited to see what the fourth gen ST would offer them Ford said fuck you to NA. No they're killing it completely and I'm sad. I always held out hope it would return.
I currently daily a Ford. When the time comes to replace it, I will not be replacing it with another one, because, Mustang aside, they don't make anything at all interesting to me any more.
When that happens, I won't be buying an F-150 or Exploder or Excretion or whatever other monstrosity, I'll be switching to another brand.
with all due respect i dont think ford gives a shit about SiteRelEnby switching brands. the cars you listed will continue to make millions of dollars in profit for Ford even if theyre not interesting to car enthusiasts.
Y'all will hate me saying it but the Mach-E GT is a pretty good hot hatch. I hate the raised seating position as much as the next guy but the COG is low and it's an absolute monster on a good tire.
But its big and there's no engine, no manuals on electric motors. I just cant see enjoying an SUV like that the same way as an ICE manual car. It's just missing so much emotion.
They killed the fiesta in Europe when it was selling like hotcakes, they of course kept the mini SUV (puma) and the bigger brother of the fiesta (focus). It's 2025 and the ST versions don't make anywhere near the power they used to because ford can't figure out how to reduce emissions. Buy hey, you get a big central screen so that ups the price.
The Bronco, Bronco Sport, Escape, and Explorer are some of the best SUVs on the market right now. Explorer and Bronco arguably at the top of their respective classes.
Prices aren’t anything special across the entire industry right now.
Sorry mate I'm on about ford Europe it wasn't looking good for them before and now they have the wave of competitive Chinese brands coming in to pinch them while they are down.
Their offerings here are the puma, ecosport, Kuga, mustang Mach e, capri and explorer. Every single one of those cars has a stellantis offering for £50 cheaper a month with more efficient engines or more ev range.
Stellantis’s financial results are weaker, they’re showing negative sales volume YoY in pretty much every segment despite trying to slash prices, and they’ve laid off almost twice as many people.
Ford have triple the debt, that debt is worth over double the entire companies worth. As I said both companies are a mess one is giving out cheaper cars in Europe with better economy it wouldn't be the first time people are buying cars that aren't the best for them.
Bronco > Jeep Wrangler
Bronco Sport > other off-road oriented CUVs
Escape Hybrid is the only PHEV CUV starting under 40k im aware of, maybe Mitsubishi
In my opinion the brand new Explorer is also best in class, but I have no data to back up my opinion. So maybe we can argue that one cause it’s just subjective. But in terms of tech, interior, performance, and styling, I think it’s the best at its price.
Bro Ford has been shit since they discontinued their panther body vehicles, i.e. since around 2010. All their post 2010 vehicles have been nothing more than adequate.
On paper they can compete Japanese vehicles, but then I remember that they hold the record for most cumbersome water pump replacement ever, and that alone was enough to drive me away from the brand forever.
Overall, Japanese vehicles are just better; yes it's sad; yes most of yalls' maws and paws will deny it; and yes I do yearn for those heavy naturally aspirated tanks that were the American sedan; but times change, and usually not for the better (as a car enthusiast at least).
Bronco > Jeep Wrangler
I mean yeah, but I feel like people who buy Jeep Wranglers don't really care about statistics, they just want a Wrangler. But yeah, I 100% agree with you on this.
Bronco > Jeep Wrangler Bronco Sport > other off-road oriented CUVs
meh, I think this is an opinion think, so I'll just drop mine in.
Jeep Grand Cherokee > Jeep Cherokee > other off-road oriented CUVs
I feel like a crazy person, but the GTI has got to be the most boring 'fun car' I've ever driven. I owned an 09, and have driven one of every generation since then, some modified, some stock. All of them have felt like fast family cars, which is what they are, but none of them felt like they wanted to be fun. They were just quicker than a regular golf. The most fun ones were the ones with DSG.
It would be the logical step up from my ST, but they just drive totally differently. The GTI is also loads nicer inside though, which is nice.
Agreed. I own a GTI and have driven several other hot hatches. The GTI is NOT the most fun or exciting, but it's also the only one I don't feel like a "boy racer" when driving. It has the vibe of a "grown up's hot hatch", and higher trims feel like an entry level Audi as far as fit and finish and features (or at least they did 5-10 year ago... VW has been cost cutting and feeling a little less premium recently, IMO).
Yeah, it's hard to tell if the Fiesta is more fun because of suspension tuning, size, weight, whatever, or because it's just sort of a cheap econobox that rattles around more and makes it feel like you're going faster than you are.
Totally felt the same. I ended up with a Mazda3. It was slower in a straight line but had much more communicative steering (and was thousands cheaper).
Nah I don’t like golfs either, something about them just doesn’t do it for me. I get why people like them, I just don’t find them fun. The VR6 golfs are pretty cool but that’s about it.
The allure of my MK 6 GTI wore off in a matter of weeks. After getting a Stage 1 tune it actually felt the way it was advertised.
I ended up going Stage 2 on it in the end which made it a very fun car (aside from nasty torque steer) even being the only automatic I've ever owned. That DSG rips through gears.
I get that. I chose a WRX so I’m not a logical person either lol. I feel like both cars are truly meant to be experienced with some light modding though. Could always just rebuild the ST when it goes.
“The GR Corolla is phenomenal car that harkens back to the 2000s when STis and EVOs ruled the roost. It feels old school and new school at the same time. The new school stuff is mostly imperceptible to the driver. The engine shakes and vibrates and reverberates the cabin in a way I haven’t felt since driving an EVO8.”
are you american? if you're not in north america there's tons of competing options. This car was a strange choice for an american brand and im not surprised it didn't sell well enough globally.
Theres just no reason to buy this car unless you don't have access to 7+ other competing options.
If you're talking new, or even new-ish? Literally nothing is going to replicate the FiST. Everything now is significantly heavier with an emphasis on spec sheet numbers over just having fun running errands. The average car buyer doesn't understand why they'd want a lightweight car when that one over there makes more horsepower.
Even with my speed3, the only thing that's close is the CTR (and by extension the ITS, but I hate how aesthetically bland the ITS is; I don't want a car that's acceptable to Jimmy in Accounting).
It's not as wild, but I've got a Mazda 3 Turbo that I've loved since 2021. Though the paddle shifters aren't really a replacement for a manual gearbox.
You can replace it, at great cost though. Even the STs were getting expensive in their last generation. But they were still cheaper than the 'hyper-hatches' that are left.
I had a Fiesta ST for 12 years. I just replaced it with a hybrid Civic Hatchback. Obviously not as fun but it's to far off from and way more comfortable.
I went from my heavily modified fiesta ST to a GR Yaris. It comes pretty close, not as much bang for buck - but a good base with potential for modifications.
Kinda…. They weren’t putting up the profitable civic/Corolla numbers to make it worth not focusing on the higher profitability larger vehicles especially in US. The sales did actually drop enough in Europe to say they’ve stopped selling well enough. Focus for example 400- 500k in 2000s down to low 200ks in the 2010s.
an american hot hatch from the muscle car brand just felt weird and i think not very many people that wanted a hot hatch actually wanted the ford brand to bring them the hot hatch.
I'm not sure what you mean by this in response to my comment but i think in markets outside of the USA this hatch would be an Even harder sell for the reason i mentioned. The ford brand doesn't say "small compact sports car" in the way that a ton of other options available in those other markets do.
I wouldn’t classify Ford as a muscle car brand. They sell a muscle car but their bread and butter is as an suv and truck brand. Dodge is really the only muscle car brand imo (before they went EV).
Any Europeans or American car industry insiders care to explain why American manufacturers all of a sudden seem to be dead set against selling European products that differ any from the American offerings? The Japanese sell a variety of cars in North America that have no real market elsewhere and do it well. Heck, Volkswagen is getting into that too with the Scout. But the Americans seem to be getting out of those types of products wherever they can. Are Europeans moving on from traditional hatchbacks? Or do they just not want ICE vehicles? Or is there something else?
EU market is literally drowning in hatchback choices. Clio, Megane, Corsa, Astra, Corolla, Yaris, Jazz, 208, 308, C3, C4, Polo, Golf, Ibiza, Leon, Fabia, Scala, Tipo, i20. IONIQ5, Cee'd and Swift are the ones I can list on the spot.
I can understand why. New car buyers skew older so they like a higher seating position and easier ingress and egress matters to these customers. Also they are seen as being more practical. Crossovers seem more like an SUV which allows manufacturers to justify a higher price point, making the car more profitable than a hatchback would have been.
EU market is literally drowning in hatchback choices. Clio, Megane, Corsa, Astra, Corolla, Yaris, Jazz, 208, 308, C3, C4, Polo, Golf, Ibiza, Leon, Fabia, Scala, Tipo, i20. IONIQ5, Cee'd and Swift are the ones I can list on the spot.
I know a banker who has an identical Lunar silver Civic Si sedan to mine, and he is over 80 years old. Old people like hot hatches, they're easier to get into than actual sports cars, he traded a Testarossa in on it. Same reason that I know dozens of old people who own Subaru Outbacks, you don't have to climb up to get into it.
My uncle owned a used car lot. I watched him try to trade cars at a funeral with the survivors before the body was even underground. The best car salesman are straight up possessed
This is one of the reasons crossovers and SUVs have become popular. I was in my early 30s when I traded in my small car for an SUV and even I don't want to go back to getting in and out of that car on a regular basis. And I don't have 80 yr old knees.
It's incomprehensible to me that Ford would kill off all of their most popular vehicles in Europe, on the pretext of meeting the Euro deadline to phase out ICE vehicles, without actually having developed any plausible electric replacements.
They're just shrugging their shoulders and giving up on making a selling vehicles in Europe 🤷
Ford’s engineers contributed so much to the contemporary sport compact, most notably the control blade rear suspension design. This is truly a sad day.
Yup. They really did say yes it’s a commuter car but it still needs to be enjoyable to drive. Never let cost concerns completely kill the spirit of driving performance
This hurts. Big time. I've owned five Ford hot hatches over the years. They're all brilliant cars. I'm genuinely gutted, even though I figured this was coming a few years ago... 😢
thisisinput@reddit
We're 5 years away from every new car built is either a crossover or a pickup truck.
jknuts1377@reddit
It's why I never plan on buying an American car again. I have a Chevy Cruze, which I love, but after that, I'm going with either Mazda, Honda, or Subaru for my next car. I haven't decided yet, but it'll most likely be Mazda.
4x4runner@reddit
I think the Camry, Corolla, Accord, and civic are too strong to go away anytime soon.
claspen@reddit
For american domestic brands, that already happened about 6 months ago lol.
Sierra_463@reddit
is there any reason they couldn't make a hot Puma
FineBug3487@reddit
Fire
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
America has spoken
rafster929@reddit
Ford doesn’t even sell any cars other than the Mustang in North America.
I guess the future is nothing but electric CUVs all around.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Because barely anyone bought them when they were for sale. America is killing small cars for the rest of the world unfortunately. Big trucks and big SUVs
BM7-D7-GM7-Bb7-EbM7@reddit
This most popular vehicle in the US is the Toyota Rav4 which is not big. It's slightly bigger than a Ford Focus hatch sure (I've owned both), but it's not like we're talking about a Ford Expedition here.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
They're big in the rest of the world, that you guys need 3 story, 4 lane wide "city" SUV's to go down to Walmart doesn't mean large cars are small.
BM7-D7-GM7-Bb7-EbM7@reddit
I'm asking seriously, do people in other countries just never do things like move or home projects? I've found myself wishing I had bought a truck instead of a smaller SUV because I had to make two trips to Home Depot to haul back some mulch for my garden. I actually had a Civic Hatchback for a while but converted to SUV when I saw how much more stuff I could get into my wife's Rav4 (which isn't that big of an SUV).
I'm asking seriously, not trying to be an ass, but what do people in other countries? If they need mulch for their garden do they get someone to deliver it? Same for any other home project?
I will say you can get an impressive amount of stuff in a Focus ST, I had a Focus ST years ago and I was able to get an Ikea queen size bed into the back. But still, it is convenient to have even a small / mid size SUV vs a hatchback. Are home projects and hauling stuff around something people in other countries just never do, is delivery the usual way to handle this?
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Do you buy a car specifically because it's convenient for moving house or that one trip every 2 years to get mulch? I sure don't.
We use trailers for bigger or messier things, a tow hitch is pretty common, even on smaller stuff like for example Audi A3's.
Otherwise we just fold the seats down, you can like you said fit a silly amount of things into a hatchback or better yet a wagon.
Funny because the only SUV I've owned was actually pretty small inside, first gen X3.
My Civic hatchback (5 door FN) that I had before it felt larger inside, far more usable space at least, could even fold the seat bottoms up.
Wagons are also usually larger inside than the "equivalent" SUV, and they're quite popular here still, at least on the used market because most brands have stopped selling anything that isn't a CUV or SUV.
All the ones I've looked at have been pretty small inside.
Delivery is an option but places like IKEA just lend you a boxtrailer which is usually more than enough.
BM7-D7-GM7-Bb7-EbM7@reddit
That is interesting, IKEA here definitely does not lend you a trailer. Hauling stuff around can be way more often than "every couple of years", realistically I have to haul stuff around several times a year, especially since I bought a house. Before that, yea it wasn't often.
The Rav4 is nice because I can put my bike in the back, I have a trailer hitch bike rack but I didn't like leaving it on all the time when I lived in an apartment, kinda for two reasons, it blocked the backup camera and I also just didn't want to get my 600 dollar bike rack stolen out of the parking garage. So, I mainly just used it on road trips. If I was taking my bike somewhere around town it was nice to be able to just throw it into the back.
I don't think I could justify owning anything bigger than Rav4 while living in an apartment, there is no a reason genuinely. But owning a home, especially our big American homes on big American lots, you really need to do a lot of shit to keep maintained (or pay people exorbitant prices to keep it maintained). Like I said, I've found myself wishing I had a truck more than once.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
I'd just get a trailer honestly, though with the state of the US I doubt you can even get a sensibly sized trailer, much like how you can't really get a sensibly sized car lol
BM7-D7-GM7-Bb7-EbM7@reddit
Then you need a spot to put the trailer... I've thought about it. ha.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Store it upright!
That's not even a joke, it's not hard to do or set up, all you really need is a pulley and somewhere to put it up against.
Seen it done a few times
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They are big here in Australia
I_like_forks@reddit
Did they not? I mean sure, the Taurus and maybe Fiesta weren't great sellers (though idk about unprofitable), but the Fusion and Focus sold like hot cakes iirc, especially for fleets. The issue iirc wasn't that they weren't making money, it's that they weren't making enough money. SUVs and trucks have wider profit margins, so they forced everyone into that segment.
piddydb@reddit
Yep you hit the nail on the head, they were selling, just not with enough pork rolled into them. Ironically though, Ford is actually looking into getting back into the sedan game in a “Mustang” sedan, but the hot hatch seems dead for the foreseeable future.
Grayly@reddit
With the M5 Touring selling better than the M5 in the USA, maybe the trend is turning, at least at the higher end.
I’m a firm believer that hatches and wagons would have become just as popular as crossovers if it weren’t for the CAFE regulations penalizing their “car” platform. Sedan to crossovers consumers want better cargo room and family utility. They don’t care about driving dynamics. If the option were better gas mileage and price for the same cargo utility, the only thing a crossover gives you is ride height at a cost of lower fuel efficiency and higher price.
CAFE warped the market, pushing the cost of cars higher as the MPG requirements are artificially higher. People will look back on this era of the car industry the way they look back on the malaise era. Terrible cars designed for compliance over function.
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
What is weird go me is so many young people are not wanting children but still want family vehicles. Makes no sense they still want the suvs their parents had.
havok0159@reddit
What's even weirder to me is how people see something the size of a Golf as something not big enough for a family. Sure, you won't fit more than 3 kids in there, but do most families even have 2 kids? My old mk4 was enough to take me and my parents on trips to Italy and Germany. The old workhorse has been capable of doing anything I needed except carrying furniture. So even a wagon seems a bit larger than what you'd usually need, but then that's mostly my preference for a shorter car speaking. I'd much rather see the road dominated by wagons rather than the absolute wastes of steel pavement princess SUVs are.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
The prevailing thought about cars amongst people I've talked to is that there's so many huge cars so obviously yet another huge SUV is the safest option.
kestnuts@reddit
Yup. My dad tells me all the time that he worries about me in my WRX because it's so much smaller than a lot of cars on the road. It's literally become an arms race at this point.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
My thought as well, nobody talks about how much more prone they are to tipping over or hitting a pedestrian because they have so much less visibility from their "commanding" seating position.
kestnuts@reddit
It's insane. I have an Infiniti QX50 as a rental while I was waiting on my insurance to pay out for my Fiesta, and it felt SO unstable compared to what I was used to.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Don't you love that SUV wobble?
Makhnos_Tachanka@reddit
young people want cars they can live in in the not unlikely event they end up having to.
thegunnersdaughter@reddit
Yeah I thought for sure young people would reject the "mom SUVs" of their parents the same way their parents rejected the "mom wagons" and "mom vans" of their parents. As the other commenter points out though, we are at a point where the market that young people are buying from barely has options other than CUVs/SUVs.
hutacars@reddit
There are a lot more SUV options than anything else, so there’s basically no other choice.
obeytheturtles@reddit
They don't really provide that in a meaningful way though. Most of the extra volume in a crossover is rear headroom. Legroom is the same (or worse in some cases), it has the same number of seats, and cargo space is typically pretty similar, with maybe the crossover having space for an extra suitcase because you can stack above the rear headrests.
cambat2@reddit
I don't think a high performance sedans sales figures are going to be indictive of consumer trends for the vast majority of the population, especially people in the market for Fiestas and Foci
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
I mean the fiesta sold 60,000 units a year on a good year. F150 sold 700,000 per year.
munche@reddit
There's a wide gulf between "The best selling series of vehicles on the planet" and "nobody buys this thing"
No_Stay_4583@reddit
They sold around 22 million in 50 years. Averages 400k per year. Maybe not truck numbers but a whole lot more than your 60k.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They didn’t in the US.
No_Stay_4583@reddit
Yeah my bad.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-sales-numbers/ford-sales-numbers/
frankbunny@reddit
That would be assuming the sales numbers are evenly distributed year to year for 5 decades.
They didn't do well in the US near the end of their life, and they seem to have dropped off in other markets as well. Ford wouldn't have quit making them if they were selling 400k a year.
No_Stay_4583@reddit
Ah my bad. I thought the person i was reacting to talked about worldwide not us market only. Yeah i understand why such a car isnt popular there. But in Europe they were big.
Ran4@reddit
It's so fucked that Americans are buying sedans. They're literally the worst possible body shape you could imagine, with no redeeming qualities.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
I hope this is sarcasm
hutacars@reddit
What are the redeeming qualities?
I love the look of sedans, but they’re definitely less practical than a hatch or wagon.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
A hatch can at times have a sloped rear roofline which means less headroom for the rear passengers. There also some extremely good driving sedans out there.
hutacars@reddit
Which hatches are those?
Same with hatches and wagons (and liftbacks). That’s not a redeeming quality of the sedan body shape in and of itself.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
GR corolla, Golf R, CTR, ITS
hutacars@reddit
First two barely have enough of a slope to be notable, latter two are closer to liftbacks than hatches.
rob_s_458@reddit
The first example I looked up was the 2019 FiST and that has 39.1" of front headroom and 37.2" in the rear. And I just measured myself from the chair to the top of my head and it's 37.75", which means I would fit in the front but not the rear
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
NVH, structural integrity and a fully separated cargo area. I prefer the practicality of a hatch myself, but sedans do offer some pros.
boomerbill69@reddit
Depends on the use case for a sedan vs hatch. I used to love my old hatches but my current sedan is 100% more practical for baby hauling duties. All that vertical space becomes pretty much useless for my needs, but having one half of the trunk be a dedicated space to easily slide a stroller into kicks ass instead of having to play Jenga with a hatchback trunk.
Wagons on the other hand are the undisputed GOAT. I miss my Passat wagon every day (when it actually worked).
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Hatchback > estate > sedan > SUV > crossover
SnikySquirrel@reddit
They look nice
nondescriptzombie@reddit
A Mustang-Sedan, a Mustang-EV, why not a Mustang-truck? Or a Mustang-motorcycle? Or a Mustang-airplane?
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
I hate the new trend of “subbrands.” To me it’s only for 3 purposes: part sharing, marketing, don’t have to pay designers as much. The Mach E is actually nice but it didn’t need to be attached to the Mustang. It would have taken Ford more resources to actually give it an identity which is why they didn’t.
Ecks83@reddit
If Ford were going to use an iconic marque for their fancy EV-SUV Thunderbird is literally right there - unused for the better part of 2 decades but still well recognized.
While it would probably still have some backlash from people the T-bird has been all kinds of shapes and sizes over the years already so it isn't nearly as weird as seeing that name on an SUV compared to Mustang which has always been the same kind of car since its inception.
Mental_Medium3988@reddit
if they were willing to bring back maverick i dont see why they couldnt call the mach-e a thunderbird. something else i dont understand is where is the lincoln version of the mach-e platform? if they need to sell more evs at higher margins, they do, well there ya go. same for an ev navigator or expedition.
Mental_Medium3988@reddit
the mustang tri-motor. sure to be a real hit at air shows.
Legolihkan@reddit
A Mustang airplane? I think that's been done before
FesteringNeonDistrac@reddit
Been done.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Miata/comments/rvq6ht/opinion_on_miata_with_mustang_body/
SiteRelEnby@reddit
If Mustang just becomes their whole range of cars as opposed to stupid fugly SUVs, I'm not going to know what to think...
Ecks83@reddit
That's the only way it really makes sense to me. Do what Dodge did with RAM and make "Mustang" a brand in itself. But I'm not sure if that was really a successful move for Dodge, if consumers even noticed the change, if it would work for Ford, or even why Ford would be eager to have another brand under their umbrella after selling off so many of the ones they owned in the mid 00's.
blue92lx@reddit
Why not add a mustard hot hatch and get back in the game again
Downside190@reddit
British or American mustard?
blue92lx@reddit
Definitely grey poupon
fernandodasilva@reddit
British, because Americans will say it's not a true mustard because "it drives the wrong wheels"
Bonerchill@reddit
I don’t think the color or flavor is the problem.
blue92lx@reddit
I'm sticking to the autocorrect on this one lol
Koil_ting@reddit
Mustang airplane surely is already a thing, then again I suppose their whole point was to use a household name and confuse people with it.
TheAlphaCarb0n@reddit
Seriously, they already have the Bronco name to spread across their SUV lineup, along with quite a few recognizable sedan models. Bastardizing the mustang name is so lame.
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
The reason they are choosing the Mustang is because they can profit off the V8 (and easily make it a $50k car instead of a $35k hot hatch). Short term it’s a good idea but in 4 years will the market and EPA standards be the same?
blue92lx@reddit
I had a 2014 fusion titanium hybrid and loved it. At the time my brother had a 2013 BMW 330i and I'd take the fusion over the 330i any day of the week. Interior was better quality, no rattles or squeaks the entire time I had it for like 5 years, and better technology than the bmw.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
That generation of Ford hybrids was great, but they didn't sell very well. People were very skeptical of Ford hybrids at the time, but they held up really well. The C-Max hybrid was a really good car too but They shut themselves in the foot by making it kind of ugly and not advertising it like at all.
munche@reddit
Fusion sold 200k+ cars the year it was cancelled
They were no longer leading their segments in sales but the narrative that nobody was buying them is completely false. It's also silly because it wasn't even the narrative Ford used, they explicitly said they'd rather sell less cars for more profit per car and that's why they were switching to SUVs. Then the entire internet said "Huh, I guess nobody likes sedans anymore"
Nope, 500k people bought Fusion/Focus/Fiesta/Taurus when they were cancelled. Ford would rather just sell less volume and make more profit.
obeytheturtles@reddit
Yeah, people act like this is pure consumer preference, but the auto makers absolutely kept a finger on the scale by eg, locking AWD and tech packages behind the crossover gate.
Kooisley@reddit
Owner of a 15' Fiesta who knows nothing about cars: I love that damn thing so much and im so sad that i cant get a new one when Frankie dies. I got it about 2 years ago and it instantly became my favorite car I've had so far.
Mental_Medium3988@reddit
i love my cmax. i dont want an escape or ecosport. the cmax is a road trip machine as well as great for commuting. i love my mpv hybrid thing. theres really not much that fits this that isnt a cuv.
TheAlphaCarb0n@reddit
I was gonna say Honda fit, but that's gone too?! Jeez
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
Subcompacts were a hard sell. They weren’t cheap enough or fuel efficient enough. That’s why the focus always did better. There was more value. There were smaller differences between sub and compact class than there are compact to midsize class.
theholylancer@reddit
see, you can thank safety regs for that (no really, DO thank them, they keep your ass safe)
but if you looked at older subcompats like older nissan sentras, like the one we had a third gen, it was 2,288 lbs and significantly lighter than the same era altima that was a mid sized car at 2,990 lbs
but once you take some leap forward to when safety got hammered in, like say a late gen fiesta vs focus, you are talking about a 2,617–2,793 lb fiesta vs 2,722.7–3,346.6 lb focus and part of that is all the safety features you HAVE to add, like crumple zones beyond your knees and additional stiffing that if you compare a modern car to older ones may as well be like having a roll cage for the driver right
kestnuts@reddit
I had a 2014 Fiesta with the 5spd manual for ten years. I loved that car! It gave it's life protecting me from an extremely stupid deer on the highway, or I'd still be driving it.
FourteenTwenty-Seven@reddit
The good news is that when you replace it, you'll still be able to buy one that's 10 years newer.
nsfdrag@reddit
What did you do to stretch it longer than the stock 13.25 feet?
RedAero@reddit
You've heard of widebody mods, right? Well, now you've heard of longbody kits.
dman928@reddit
Rubs it daily
barrettgpeck@reddit
Directions unclear, have gone blind and have really really hairy palms.
Downside190@reddit
bosozoku bodykit
fernandodasilva@reddit
206 WRC bodykit
Broad_Bill7791@reddit
Man, mine was a pile of dog shit. The most unreliable little fucker ever built. That being said, I was sad to get rid of her. She moved with the grace of a god when she decided to start.
Kooisley@reddit
Ugh thats so sad to hear. She's a beast. This is going to sound silly, but I havent figured out the S gear yet. Like i said i kniw nothing about cars. I am afraid to do it wrong and fuck it up. She's fast tho and she's allegedly hits 100 easy. I want to use tho lol. The only issue I have right now is that my hood sensor is busted and keeps thinking my hood is being popped. I called my mechanic to get a new part. My poor neighbors. My car alarm has been randomly going off for weeks
Broad_Bill7791@reddit
It's issues like these that keep us coming back :D
mpgomatic@reddit
The $7200 I dropped on my 2014 Fi3sta three-banger turbo manual is the best automotive investment I’ve ever made. Hauled in $100K delivering groceries through the pandemic. Lifetime average 40 MPG.
Ford needs to build something in volume to keep Blue Oval City busy. It won’t be F150s. Affordable Fords will return one day.
I_like_forks@reddit
I've got a 2011 Fiesta myself, lime green peppy little bugger, my first car. Been through hell but starts up every time and sits quite happily theoretically at 110mph. When my lean mean green machine dies a part of my heart will as well.
Macgyver452@reddit
It didn’t help that the the Focus and Fiesta had horrible transmissions the last generation in the USA. They were Nissan bad and made the news of it being a cover up. https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money/cars/ford/2019/07/11/ford-focus-fiesta-transmission-defect/1671198001/
SiteRelEnby@reddit
That's just a problem of americans not knowing how to drive properly so needing an automatic.
Macgyver452@reddit
Almost all my cars are manual. It's sad so few in the USA have 3 pedals.
joe0400@reddit
fusions were _everywhere_ up till they killed it. focus's for me is still _everywhere_ even after they killed them.
siresword@reddit
The issues Ford had with the DCT in the focus/fiesta certainly didn't help anything.
surfsupdurban@reddit
The Fiesta was the best selling vehicle in Europe, so lack of sales isn't the reason.
GleefulWeasel@reddit
At the time they were executing this move, I worked for a Tier 1 supplier and a Ford engineer did tell me that they were in the hole on the Fusion program overall because they weren’t making enough on each sale / enough sales to pay off the tooling costs. It was in the context of him telling us our tooling cost was too high though, so take it with a grain of salt.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
Ford is making the same mistakes they made in the past, but now they can't rely on Euro Ford to quickly federalise a small car platform and engine in case market demand shifts that direction because they now did it globally. Heck, Euro Ford is pretty much on its deathbed because none of its crossovers are particularly competitively priced.
The first-gen Pinto had the British-designed Crossflow, which was a major advantage over its GM counterpart.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Trucks sold more than compacts, then SUVs sold more than compacts. Ford made the fiesta and focus for all other markets, except America. Why? Because it doesn’t sell well enough for them to pay the taxes required to sell a model of car.
p_rex@reddit
I thought the Fiesta ST and Focus ST did okay. They were always going to be a niche product and one with a modest profit margin, but they consistently sold as expected. I think the problem is that the non-ST versions didn’t sell well enough to keep the platforms going in the US.
_Winterspring_@reddit
Those STs must have had very slim margins because I bought my 2014 ST1 for like $22.5k brand new.
p_rex@reddit
Yeah, I paid $23k for my 2015 FiST. First thing I did when I got my first real job after graduating.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They did worse than every other got hatch on the market.
FMecha@reddit
The implication I get is that this trend also spread elsewhere (with size adaptations).
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Yep Australia is now importing and buying American trucks.
satellite779@reddit
More like higher profit margins on trucks and SUVs
Grayly@reddit
The Focus ST sold a little over 14k units in its launch year in the US (2014) according to forums. At least 12k in 10 months according to journalist sourcing. Apparently my link was banned (car buzz) but you can google.
For comparison, the GTI sold 33k in 2014. That’s an established brand of hot hatch with nearly 30 years of presence and consumer base in the USA. With heavy advertising vs the ST, which largely sold on word of mouth, the popularity of Top Gear UK in the US at the time, and its enthusiast reputation.
Ford could have kept selling the mk4 ST in the US even after they killed the base model. VW did and still does after they killed the base Golf in the states. Ford just… chose not to.
That’s their right. And it’s mine to take my business elsewhere.
It’s a shame. Because the value proposition of the ST vs the GTI in the US was crazy good.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Hyundai make loads of amazing value hot hatches, why don’t they all go to the United States?
Grayly@reddit
Which ones? They sell the Elantra N here— it doesn’t come as a hatch.
Are you talking about the city cars? Or are you talking about the compact segment that the GTI and Focus ST are/were in?
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Hyundai are the biggest enthusiast company right now, with Toyota following suit.
The i20n was reviewed as the best new hot hatch, and best value sports car. A refresh has just come out across the world now too.
Yes the i30n is also the other hot hatch they have. They have the i30n sedan here too.
I think focus st sold less than golf gti in the US right?
Grayly@reddit
The i30 is the Elantra. They’re the same car. It’s just sold as the Elantra in the US, and they only sell the sedan. It sells well for them.
Hyundai just isn’t very popular in the US enthusiast scene until very recently. They’ve had a very poor brand image in the US for many years. As that changes maybe they’ll open up more variety in their line up. The Elantra N is doing most of that work to change perceptions.
The GTI is the legacy king of the segment. No one outsells them.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, exactly? Sedans aren’t exactly a growth market either in the US, but Hyundai has gone all in on their performance model to try and build their brand. Ford could learn a thing or two.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Yea sucks that they tried to avoid American import taxes to assembling the US ones in the US. Didn't do well at all. The rest of the world get the Turkey and Korean built ones which have been rock solid for decades now. They are the top selling cars in some segments here too.
I was just pointing out that nearly every small cool car isn't released to the US as they won't sell well. i20n, Yaris GR, 135i, S1, Polo GTI etc.
Grayly@reddit
Those are all super small and not really the apples to apples comparison of what has sold well here in the past. The Fiesta ST was a major hit but also kind of the exception that proves the rule. We only got it because we got the Fiesta as a compliance vehicle. A segment cars never sold here aside from the smart car, and B segment cars are all but gone as well— only ever selling well during recessions or oil crises. For whatever reason.
The C segment compact is about as small as the US market has ever really gone. And we do have a good decent lineup of affordable performance cars in that segment without getting into luxury performance money. Elantra N, GR Corolla, GTI, WRX, and Civic Type R. Of those, the Elantra, Corolla and Civic all launched after Ford killed the Focus in the US. They just kind of… surrendered that segment and gave the other manufacturers room. For a while all of the car reviews here said the Fiesta or Focus ST was the best choice for an entry level performance car.
Now unless you want a Mustang or truck, there’s no reason to consider Ford at all.
chiggenNuggs@reddit
Literally untrue. When they announced the cancellation of all their cars, they sold 1/4 million fusions and like 170k focuses IN THE US. Fiesta and Taurus were slightly lower, but all car sales combined was like 600k units. The fusion was their best selling model behind the escape and f series, selling as well as the explorer.
Other OEMs would kill for that kind of unit volume. Ford’s decision was 100% based on profit margin. They wanted to only sell high margin products and leave volume, economy cars to other OEMs. Had almost nothing to do with sales.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
It sucks but it makes sense. You have finite resources. Should you spend it on the vehicle with the small margins or the one with the big margins (if you are confident it will sell either way)?
RichardNixon345@reddit
Finite being plants especially. The Fiesta plant now builds the Mach E, the Fusion plant builds the Maverick and Bronco Sport, and the Focus plant builds the Bronco and Ranger.
Chicago turned their Taurus capacity into Aviator capacity (with room for some additional Explorer capacity.
RiftHunter4@reddit
This decision has aged like milk, too. The trucks have higher margins, but they ramped up prices to the point that most Ford vehicles that people want are too expensive. Their lots are piling up, and Ford now lags behind most of its competitors in production and stocks.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They hit record revenue last year with healthy profits. Not sure why you think it’s aged like milk, rest of the american automakers followed
RiftHunter4@reddit
The cheapest Ford vehicle is about $30k, while all of the top automakers currently offer vehicles in the $20k range. Ford is one of the few brands that doesn't have any cheaper models to pivot to as the economy worsens. Ford isn't going broke, obviously, but it seems clear to me that between recalls and their pricing, Ford is missing out on sales. Their vehicles aren't as easy to sell anymore.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They don’t care conceding a market with little to no margin to competitors when 90% of their global profits come from the f-series. In 2023 69% of their adjusted EBIT was from their commercial division Ford Pro
It’s not that they’re not going broke it’s that saying their decision “aged like milk” is objectively wrong
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
THIS. I really didn’t understand their thinking. Especially, when you look at their sales figures now. The Maverick and Bronco Sport are not selling in those numbers to replace the sales of focus/fusion. Which I thought wad the point. And the fusion in particular covers a lot of the same price point of those two vehicles. I really don’t understand how the Fusion didn’t make any money. It was also just a better vehicle. More reliable imo. I always thought they should have kept the focused or done what Honda has done and made Focus a car that straddled the compact and midsize segments and offer it in different flavors-sedan, hatchback, wagon and lifted hatchback (like Crosstrek).
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Because people who want a normal car don't want a pickup truck or a hideous SUV, they want something that feels enjoyable to drive and isn't too bad on fuel.
blue92lx@reddit
Also, profit margins are bullshit. That goes both ways. So they're basically saying our trucks and SUV's are marked up too high, which is obvious since the price of an F150 is astronomically high. They could've also just come in and marked up their car prices too to make the same margins, or lower the trucks to sell even more. Canceling successful lines of vehicles that people want and love because of profit margin is full on BS.
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Yep. I'd pay more for a normal car than some stupid SUV if I really, really had to. I'll save that money in fuel costs over its lifetime, and get that money's worth out of actually enjoying driving it.
spacexcargo@reddit
Ford cars were big sellers. They just weren’t as profitable as the trucks and SUVs.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Yes, when more people are buying huge expensive trucks than small compacts, makes sense?
SiteRelEnby@reddit
People are not cross-shopping a Fiesta with a big brodozer pickup truck.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They always have a fiesta and a truck, they just decided not to get a new fiesta
13Vex@reddit
Nobody bought them because dealerships mark up any slightly enthusiast car to hell
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They bought more expensive trucks and SUVs instead
Mitchlowe@reddit
Ford sold over 1.3M mk3 focus in United States alone. And that was even with a well documented deeply flawed transmission that would grenade within a year or two
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
That’s just over a years worth of f150 sales.
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
So the Rav4 outsold the F150 last year. Should Ford now pack it up? Lol. Just because you are number 1 in the industry across all models and types doesn’t mean the vehicle isn’t successful. The focus was successful. Ford is just greedy and only cares about short term gaines
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Their sales in f trucks grew, SUVs grew, while garages sold less, do you understand how the cost of selling cars in the United States works? Many manufacturers don’t want to waste the money just to be able to sell a model in the United States, after taxes for a certain model, it is often not feasible. America tries its hardest to make selling a low volume car too expensive
TheAlphaCarb0n@reddit
Focus buyers are not cross-shopping with F150s, they'll go get a compact car from another brand. That's just lost profit.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
When I was on the st forum, so many sold their focus to get a truck it was not funny.
Bonerchill@reddit
Honestly, you’d be surprised. The car buyers I’ve talked to aren’t what I consider rational.
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Nope.
Currently have a Ford, likely never buying another because, Mustang aside, they don't sell anything that I have any interest in any more.
TenguBlade@reddit
The Focus never turned a profit in all 20 years it was on sale in North America.
mustangfan12@reddit
Right before they killed off the Focus it was still selling over 100k units. If they had a decent auto transmission it would've continued selling well
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They had a great auto transmission in the mk4. It wouldn’t matter, America love huge cars in general, bigger cars sell far better.
InvasionOfScipio@reddit
You are factually incorrect and spreading misinformation. 🥳
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-focus-sales-figures/
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
That’s almost as much the fiesta sold in a year, what f150 sold in a month.
InvasionOfScipio@reddit
And? I just pulled one specific model, so combined the fiesta and focus you’re admittting are almost 400,000 cars in a year, right?
And you said nobody bought them, right again?
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
On their best years yes, less than half that of f trucks alone.
the_other_guy-JK@reddit
Well, yeah, but what about people who DIDN'T buy them????? /s
Truck owner here, would be nice to have a fun hatch or sedan too. But I can't afford to spend a million dollars on cars to have something like that. Even sticking with a Ford example, there were instances of US dealers trying to sell the RS for nearly 100k after dealer markups. The used market for them is still bonkers with some listed for near original MSRP with modest miles on them.
Pound fucking sand on that one, ffs.
motorboat_mcgee@reddit
And even if people do buy them, the profit margin is better on trucks/suvs iirc
HeftyNugs@reddit
Dealers killed the hot hatch. People wanted the RS but not for $60k (CAD).
Reygle@reddit
Average Americans are too fat to even get in a "car".
Gojiraaaaaaaaaaaaa@reddit
now the rest of the world gets to suffer, enjoy giant parking lots and terrible traffic and these giant cars taking up bike lanes
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
It’s not that no one bought them. Ford didn’t make enough profit on them. At it’s height the Ford Fusion sold 306k. The last full year of production I believe was 2019 and they sold 166k. Look at their current roster of “affordable”. Escape, Maverick and Bronco Sport. Only one (Escape) beats the Fusion last year of sales. Maverick and Bronco Sport are nowhere near the sales of Fusion. I would also like to point out that adjusted for inflation the Fusion covers a lot of the price point of these vehicles. I think Ford’s problem is bad engineering (causing recalls) and bad business management. How can Honda be as successful as it is and produce more cars in America that are reliable for the same price and can make an argument for cars. Because they are simply better at business.
hutacars@reddit
China is keeping them alive, and the RoW doesn’t seem quite as apprehensive of them as NA. Ultimately NA will be left behind with stupid oversized trucks and the RoW will use what works best.
namesdevil3000@reddit
They (manufacturers) also don’t market these cars anymore. Like at all. Ford spends WAYYYYY more time marketing the Mustang electric with the tagline “The Best way to Mustang” (or the only, can’t remember which) vs the ICE mustang.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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knowledgeable_diablo@reddit
Boo hisss. But if that’s what’s selling, a companies only role is to sell product people are willing to buy this making profit to cycle the system.
rafster929@reddit
i know, just CUVs look all the same and bore me. old man telling at clouds
knowledgeable_diablo@reddit
Don’t worry mate. Im yelling as well. Shaking my fist as well for added emphasis!
That’ll teach them dastardly poor form clouds…
VEGA3519@reddit
Atleast you've got Mustang and Bronco. Europe probably won't get new ones in the next gen at all. Hell, we might not get new Fords anyway
rafster929@reddit
I’m looking forward to a future with affordable modern Chinese vehicles.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
Have fun with your unsafe spyware then. I would trust Ford over fucking BYD any day
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Source for them having spyware?
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
Do you have a source on that? Source?
A source. I need a source.
Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion.
No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered.
You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence.
Do you have a degree in that field?
A college degree? In that field?
Then your arguments are invalid.
No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation.
Correlation does not equal causation.
CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION.
You still haven't provided me a valid source yet.
Nope, still haven't.
I just looked through all 308 pages of your user history, figures I'm debating a glormpf supporter. A moron
Like seriously? I need a source on the Chinese spying on you through software in their products? Let’s use our heads a little bit.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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rafster929@reddit
Chinese brands, which include Volvo, have been certified and sold in Europe for a decade now. BYD, Xaiomi, and Geely have leap frogged western cars and are filling the affordable gap left behind by US automakers. They are also gunning for the top end of the martlet.
Chances are your phone and home appliances are also made in China and none have caught fire, been caught evading regulations (looking at you Boeing) or building pedestrian crushing trucks (GM, Ford, Ram).
VEGA3519@reddit
If communists won't rule China then sure, maybe i'll consider, but: Chinese companies are scummy, they embrace slavery, there's no parts available, most of chinese vehicles are unreliable, they're not ecological. So that's a major no no from me. What i'm looking for instead is a future with EU.
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Woah, nice propaganda greatest hits!
Homie, the US has legal slavery to this day, China does not and no amount of lies can prove they do.
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Captain3leg-s@reddit
I just drove a rental Chinese "suv" in Costa Rica for a week. It was no exaggeration the worst vehicle I've ever been in. In all fairness it was a rental seeing mixed asphalt and dirt roads.
Pro-editor-1105@reddit
There are better ones though. Take a look at one of Byds YangWang ones. Not the jumpy supercar but there is another one which is this huge SUV with a generator and insane luxury feature.
-Unnamed-@reddit
Ford apparently thought the Bronco was gonna be this huge revitalization to challenge Jeep. But it turns out that everyone who wanted one got one in the first few years and now no one is buying them anymore. They can’t move them and have dialed back production. Wouldn’t surprise me if they switch to order only
RandomGenName1234@reddit
Aren't they also insanely expensive?
-Unnamed-@reddit
Idk about “insanely”
But yeah. Every year since launch they’ve gotten more and more expensive and the price is pushing it for the quality now. I got a base model for roughly 30k in 2022. That same thing costs upper 40s now. And the top of the line has gotten worse.
I have no idea why someone would want to spend damn near $70k and still have a hard plastic interior and some other low quality decisions throughout the vehicle
surfsupdurban@reddit
That might be true, if they had bothered to develop any plausible electric vehicles.
xamdou@reddit
The Mustang plant is currently getting tooling to build a sedan based on that chassis.
SiteRelEnby@reddit
The future is Ford going bankrupt next time the oil price spikes, you mean.
Pro-editor-1105@reddit
Props to them for keeping the mustang though. Corporate desision making should have probably also decided to discontinue that.
RBJ_09@reddit
Honestly I think this is because we are so fat. I have done zero research to back this point up but it makes sense big people want bigger vehicles to do non big vehicle tasks.
FlameShadow0@reddit
Don’t forget about selling explorers to police!
obeytheturtles@reddit
And they said "we want you to build more gutless crossovers"
ottrocity@reddit
Ford sold 22 million Fiestas from 2976 through 2023.
Apparently not enough.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Not in the US they didn’t
AAA-VR6@reddit
I live in America. I want a 90's GTI with a VR6 and more Nissan S13s to be built. America has spoken!
Koil_ting@reddit
Not MY America!
p90rushb@reddit
We want reasonable and sensible mid-size crossover SUVs, in white, black, and silver. Who's with me???
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
Throw in an obnoxious amount of piano black and I'm in!
Imprezzed@reddit
Getting real tired of it too.
mi__to__@reddit
And a merry Fuck You too, Ford.
_Sir_Cumfrence_@reddit
Not their fault no one bought them
GTE_Engineering@reddit
People bought them they just didn’t make nearly as much profit on them as they do on F-Teen-Thousands so they got shitcanned
Saskatchewon@reddit
I worked at a Ford dealership for 6 months. The only new car that remained on that lot for my entire duration there was a single Ford Fiesta. Turnaround times mean everything in car sales. How long is the car on the lot before it's sold? For the Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion, that length of time was dramatically longer than everything else.
It wasn't just that crossovers, SUVs were already well on their way to supplanting sedans and econoboxes either. Management would tell sales staff not to worry too much about learning the ins and outs of our cars because people are interested in getting an econobox or mid-size sedan would likely test drive the equivalent Honda at our Honda dealership next door (same owners as the Ford dealer) since they were so much better. And having driven a lot of vehicles from both Ford and Honda back to back during training, I would agree that the Fit, Civic, and Accord were infinitely better than the Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion at the time.
newtonreddits@reddit
No they didn't. I bought a Focus ST in 2016 brand new for $19k. They marked it down almost $6k off MSRP because it sat on the lot. This was shortly before Ford canned cars in the US.
HeftyNugs@reddit
They absolutely did sell. And they sold decent numbers in NA considering they are manual only. I bought my 2017 ST in 2019 just before the pandemic hit at $21k, it had 37000 km on it. Dealers marked them up to $30k at one point and the RS was over $60k (Canadian dollars). The time you bought in 2016 was a just a blip. Market trends say something completely different than your experience.
newtonreddits@reddit
And that's why they canceled it? I'm not sure what your point is. Companies don't kill good selling products.
HeftyNugs@reddit
You said "no they didn't" to the statement that people bought them and that they marked them down from MSRP because they weren't selling. I said that the opposite is true, because people wanted them, but dealers killed the sales by marking them up. Companies do stupid shit all the time, this is a logical fallacy. This wouldn't be the first or the last time a manufacturer discontinued a car that people want that dealers overprice.
newtonreddits@reddit
I looked up the best sales year for the Ford Focus in the US since the mk3 was introduced which was 2012 where the Focus sold some 270k units. So you're right that's a big number. However Ford sold 3x as many F-series trucks that year.
But it looks like sales dropped off a cliff later in the 2010s for the Focus so Ford already projected that.
HeftyNugs@reddit
I feel like that's obvious. One is a utility truck and the other is a manual only sports car. But we have come full circle now as this is what the original person you responded to brought up.
newtonreddits@reddit
Touche we're all on the same page now.
HeftyNugs@reddit
Cheers brother
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Wrong, lol. It was 2021 that they stopped selling cars.
newtonreddits@reddit
Sorry. Shortly before they announced that they would stop selling cars in the US.
HaggardSummaries@reddit
That's what happened in America but we're talking about Ford Europe
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
Yeah but measuring everything against the F150 would just mean they don’t have a lineup. Ford replaced the Fusion with Maverick and Bronco Sport. Neither sell in the same numbers as the Fusion did and they fill the same price points. It was dumb to ditch the Fusion. Fiesta and Focus I kind of get because they were so cheap, profits were probably small. But even Tesla has a business case for 1 sedan.
Drone30389@reddit
Maybe more people would have kept buying them if they didn't have so damn many problems.
callthewambulance@reddit
I had a 2013 Focus ST3, amazing car until the fuel injection system went to shit at 80K miles. Fucking thing would just completely stall out of nowhere and sold it immediately for a Civic Si
Balenciallahh@reddit
Sounds like a purge valve, which is a common issue for them but a super easy fix.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
adotang@reddit
ah, r/cars, where everyone wants a car they actually will not buy because reddit is allergic to ever being satisfied with anything
trail-g62Bim@reddit
We need cheap, small cars. They meet the needs of most people.
I mean, not me. I need an F150 because sometimes I need to pick up a couple of bags of mulch and I don't want the other guys in the home depot parking lot to make fun of me.
(I say this as an SUV owner)
Agree-With-Above@reddit
People that claim to want them can't afford them.
People that test drive them find them too compromised.
People that can afford them have better options.
The market has spoken.
happyevil@reddit
I bought 3 Ford hot hatches, 2013 ST, 2016 RS, 2018 RS. How many more did I need to buy?
RandomGenName1234@reddit
About a million
happyevil@reddit
Damn I was so close.
ottrocity@reddit
I bought two Fiesta STs and 3 SVT Foci.
I would have bought a second-gen Focus ST but they weren't even sold here.
They sold 22 million Fiestas over its life, putting it at the 2nd most purchased Ford vehicle behind the F150.
Fuck you and fuck Ford.
PDNYFL@reddit
I bought my FiST brand new, but yeah they weren't exactly volume sellers.
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blchpmnk@reddit
I'm not talking about this specific instance, but cars aren't always discontinued because of low sales.
E.g. the Kia Rio was discontinued despite good sales numbers because the profit margins were very low.
notheretopost69@reddit
Nobody seems to be buying any Fords. Their sales are down across Europe and killing their hatchback models just seems to be pushing people into the arms of the Koreans and VW - who seem to understand that to sell cars you need to make them.
StrangeSmellz@reddit
Did you buy one?
junkmiles@reddit
I've got a Fiesta ST. Love it. Sadly, it's going up for sale in the next couple of days.
RANDY_MAR5H@reddit
What do you buy after that? I mean if you have the cars in your flair, you could just get an nc2 or nd miata
junkmiles@reddit
The C40 is the fiesta replacement, for better or worse.
We both work from home, and my kid and the car seat was getting to be a tight fit in the fiesta. Still have it, but working on selling it. Almost all of my driving these days is to school or for hiking/fishing, so a Miata doesn’t really make sense at the moment.
I had an NA Miata for a while though, wouldn’t mind picking up an ND at some point in a couple years.
TenguBlade@reddit
Notice how of the 4 replies you’ve gotten, OP wasn’t one of them…
StrangeSmellz@reddit
I can't believe they stopped making things that no one was buying.
Bderken@reddit
Man the three random commenters under your post really proved your point lol
_Sir_Cumfrence_@reddit
I loved my ford fusion. Fantastic car
PurpleK00lA1d@reddit
I still have my 2014. I was planning on adding the new one to my driveway until they killed them in NA. 2015 - 2018 was just a refresh so basically the same car still so no point since I was keeping the 2014.
Waited to see what the fourth gen ST would offer them Ford said fuck you to NA. No they're killing it completely and I'm sad. I always held out hope it would return.
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Ford continues its elaborate suicide by stopping making anything interesting...
TinyCarz@reddit
Interesting isn’t profitable.
SiteRelEnby@reddit
I currently daily a Ford. When the time comes to replace it, I will not be replacing it with another one, because, Mustang aside, they don't make anything at all interesting to me any more.
When that happens, I won't be buying an F-150 or Exploder or Excretion or whatever other monstrosity, I'll be switching to another brand.
SacredWinner442@reddit
with all due respect i dont think ford gives a shit about SiteRelEnby switching brands. the cars you listed will continue to make millions of dollars in profit for Ford even if theyre not interesting to car enthusiasts.
Active_Dust_3331@reddit
Sad day, had 4 of them so far, best hot hatch on road imo. Manual gearbox hot hatchs are so rare now 😭. Hopefully the Corolla GR comes to the UK
XGC75@reddit
Y'all will hate me saying it but the Mach-E GT is a pretty good hot hatch. I hate the raised seating position as much as the next guy but the COG is low and it's an absolute monster on a good tire.
AllTearGasNoBreaks@reddit
But its big and there's no engine, no manuals on electric motors. I just cant see enjoying an SUV like that the same way as an ICE manual car. It's just missing so much emotion.
XGC75@reddit
It's not the same, but it's still very fun in different ways. The instant torque and quickness is thrilling
pinezatos@reddit
They killed the fiesta in Europe when it was selling like hotcakes, they of course kept the mini SUV (puma) and the bigger brother of the fiesta (focus). It's 2025 and the ST versions don't make anywhere near the power they used to because ford can't figure out how to reduce emissions. Buy hey, you get a big central screen so that ups the price.
Comprehensive_Dog651@reddit
Soon everything will be electric SUVs huh
brownninja97@reddit
Hope it blows up in their faces, the puma is a rip off, their suvs/crossovers have terrible prices or lease deals and arent anything special
charmanderSosa@reddit
The Bronco, Bronco Sport, Escape, and Explorer are some of the best SUVs on the market right now. Explorer and Bronco arguably at the top of their respective classes.
Prices aren’t anything special across the entire industry right now.
brownninja97@reddit
Sorry mate I'm on about ford Europe it wasn't looking good for them before and now they have the wave of competitive Chinese brands coming in to pinch them while they are down.
Their offerings here are the puma, ecosport, Kuga, mustang Mach e, capri and explorer. Every single one of those cars has a stellantis offering for £50 cheaper a month with more efficient engines or more ev range.
TenguBlade@reddit
Remind me how that company is doing right now?
brownninja97@reddit
Both companies are doing terribly laying off people and in crazy debt what's your point
TenguBlade@reddit
Stellantis’s financial results are weaker, they’re showing negative sales volume YoY in pretty much every segment despite trying to slash prices, and they’ve laid off almost twice as many people.
They are not competitive with Ford.
brownninja97@reddit
Ford have triple the debt, that debt is worth over double the entire companies worth. As I said both companies are a mess one is giving out cheaper cars in Europe with better economy it wouldn't be the first time people are buying cars that aren't the best for them.
Kindly-Emergency-514@reddit
LMAO. No, they aren't.
charmanderSosa@reddit
Bronco > Jeep Wrangler Bronco Sport > other off-road oriented CUVs
Escape Hybrid is the only PHEV CUV starting under 40k im aware of, maybe Mitsubishi
In my opinion the brand new Explorer is also best in class, but I have no data to back up my opinion. So maybe we can argue that one cause it’s just subjective. But in terms of tech, interior, performance, and styling, I think it’s the best at its price.
CommissionNo1931@reddit
Bro Ford has been shit since they discontinued their panther body vehicles, i.e. since around 2010. All their post 2010 vehicles have been nothing more than adequate.
On paper they can compete Japanese vehicles, but then I remember that they hold the record for most cumbersome water pump replacement ever, and that alone was enough to drive me away from the brand forever.
Overall, Japanese vehicles are just better; yes it's sad; yes most of yalls' maws and paws will deny it; and yes I do yearn for those heavy naturally aspirated tanks that were the American sedan; but times change, and usually not for the better (as a car enthusiast at least).
I mean yeah, but I feel like people who buy Jeep Wranglers don't really care about statistics, they just want a Wrangler. But yeah, I 100% agree with you on this.
meh, I think this is an opinion think, so I'll just drop mine in.
Jeep Grand Cherokee > Jeep Cherokee > other off-road oriented CUVs
RANDY_MAR5H@reddit
Wild
It's really hard to imagine what i'd replace my fiesta st with. It's the most fun i've had with 4 doors.
djmm19@reddit
GR Corolla or GTI maybe?
junkmiles@reddit
I feel like a crazy person, but the GTI has got to be the most boring 'fun car' I've ever driven. I owned an 09, and have driven one of every generation since then, some modified, some stock. All of them have felt like fast family cars, which is what they are, but none of them felt like they wanted to be fun. They were just quicker than a regular golf. The most fun ones were the ones with DSG.
It would be the logical step up from my ST, but they just drive totally differently. The GTI is also loads nicer inside though, which is nice.
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
That was exactly how my awd Q60 was. Faster than it needed to be but also insulated completely
UncleBensRacistRice@reddit
I think thats the price you pay for refinement. The more refined and perfect something becomes, the less fun it seems to be.
withoutapaddle@reddit
Agreed. I own a GTI and have driven several other hot hatches. The GTI is NOT the most fun or exciting, but it's also the only one I don't feel like a "boy racer" when driving. It has the vibe of a "grown up's hot hatch", and higher trims feel like an entry level Audi as far as fit and finish and features (or at least they did 5-10 year ago... VW has been cost cutting and feeling a little less premium recently, IMO).
junkmiles@reddit
Yeah, it's hard to tell if the Fiesta is more fun because of suspension tuning, size, weight, whatever, or because it's just sort of a cheap econobox that rattles around more and makes it feel like you're going faster than you are.
Thirdmort@reddit
Totally felt the same. I ended up with a Mazda3. It was slower in a straight line but had much more communicative steering (and was thousands cheaper).
PMTittiesPlzAndThx@reddit
Nah I don’t like golfs either, something about them just doesn’t do it for me. I get why people like them, I just don’t find them fun. The VR6 golfs are pretty cool but that’s about it.
xgoodvibesx@reddit
If size isn't an issue the Audi A1 with the 2L is hilarious
Shadax@reddit
The allure of my MK 6 GTI wore off in a matter of weeks. After getting a Stage 1 tune it actually felt the way it was advertised.
I ended up going Stage 2 on it in the end which made it a very fun car (aside from nasty torque steer) even being the only automatic I've ever owned. That DSG rips through gears.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
It's not a hatch, but the Si has that rawness that's lacking in the GTi. I'll assume the same for an N car, but I haven't tried one.
djmm19@reddit
I get that. I chose a WRX so I’m not a logical person either lol. I feel like both cars are truly meant to be experienced with some light modding though. Could always just rebuild the ST when it goes.
Sixgunslime@reddit
It's the closest new car you'll find. Neither will compare to that go-kart feeling of the FiST sadly
Ghoats@reddit
I20N. Literally designed to be a backroad rocket.
Sixgunslime@reddit
Cries in American
djmm19@reddit
Looks like they have an SUV already, maybe a Miata or equivalent then
rafaelfrancisco6@reddit
Or the obvious choice the Yaris GR no ?
djmm19@reddit
I saw some in Europe recently but not sure if it’s available in the US
spike021@reddit
it’s not. so people in europe who still want a hot hatch have that option.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
The GR Corolla exists with the same engine because Toyota didn't want to bring the Yaris platform to the US.
Disrupt_money@reddit
“The GR Corolla is phenomenal car that harkens back to the 2000s when STis and EVOs ruled the roost. It feels old school and new school at the same time. The new school stuff is mostly imperceptible to the driver. The engine shakes and vibrates and reverberates the cabin in a way I haven’t felt since driving an EVO8.”
86Austin@reddit
are you american? if you're not in north america there's tons of competing options. This car was a strange choice for an american brand and im not surprised it didn't sell well enough globally.
Theres just no reason to buy this car unless you don't have access to 7+ other competing options.
leftlanespawncamper@reddit
If you're talking new, or even new-ish? Literally nothing is going to replicate the FiST. Everything now is significantly heavier with an emphasis on spec sheet numbers over just having fun running errands. The average car buyer doesn't understand why they'd want a lightweight car when that one over there makes more horsepower.
Even with my speed3, the only thing that's close is the CTR (and by extension the ITS, but I hate how aesthetically bland the ITS is; I don't want a car that's acceptable to Jimmy in Accounting).
TwoCraZyEyes0@reddit
I've got a 23 civic SI and I love it, although I wish it was a hatch.
rimjob_steve@reddit
Fiesta ST is peak fun.
CloudofWar@reddit
It's not as wild, but I've got a Mazda 3 Turbo that I've loved since 2021. Though the paddle shifters aren't really a replacement for a manual gearbox.
TinyCarz@reddit
Buy another 2 fiestas now. Between canabalizing the three I think you can make it 15-20 years!
djdecimation@reddit
I'm trying to keep my MS3 as long as I can.
Fdbog@reddit
You can replace it, at great cost though. Even the STs were getting expensive in their last generation. But they were still cheaper than the 'hyper-hatches' that are left.
rafaelfrancisco6@reddit
Not the cheapeast of hot hatches though, both the 595/695 and the Polo GTI could be found for cheaper or at comparable prices.
rhymanocerous@reddit
I had a Fiesta ST for 12 years. I just replaced it with a hybrid Civic Hatchback. Obviously not as fun but it's to far off from and way more comfortable.
Pattyyy@reddit
I went from my heavily modified fiesta ST to a GR Yaris. It comes pretty close, not as much bang for buck - but a good base with potential for modifications.
CertifiedAngler@reddit
Ford Europe is Official Dead
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Puma ST exists if you want something fast
LeadenGrudges@reddit
A 160hp CUV?
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Ah shit they got rid of the manual version? I stand corrected
Thing really is just a Fiesta though
dbcanuck@reddit
Isn’t the Ranger the #1 pickup in Europe?
surf_greatriver_v4@reddit
All it takes is one little tax loophole closed and that is instantly wiped out. The UK almost did it
Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit
It is, but pick-up sales in Europe are overshadowed by commercial vans anyway, so that's not much of a boast.
pursuer_of_simurg@reddit
Which Transit dominated anyway.
CertifiedAngler@reddit
Shit idk maybe. I wouldn’t think that there would be many options in Europe
pursuer_of_simurg@reddit
There are. Hilux, D-max, Ssangyong, Chinese Pick-up, İneos quartermaster etc.
In some countries Ford even started selling the F150.
Miserable-Assistant3@reddit
Don’t forget the VW Amarok
TulioGonzaga@reddit
Which is Ranger based now
surfsupdurban@reddit
Correct, the European Rangers and Amarok's all come out of the same Ford factory in South Africa
SiteRelEnby@reddit
Pickup trucks are pretty much an america-only thing. In europe most people use vans instead.
adambrine759@reddit
Yeah but doesn’t mean much. Number 1 amongst the few truck sales. Meanwhile the fiesta and focus you find them on every street
pursuer_of_simurg@reddit
And don't for get the Transit.
deathschemist@reddit
nah, the man with a white transit van is a 50 year institution in the UK.
that said i do see less of those around in favour of peugeots, vauxhalls, citroens, mercedes-benz and nissans...
Common_Turnover9226@reddit
They canned the best selling car in the UK, the Fiesta, and replaced it with the Puma.
Puma is now the best selling car in the UK anyway.
coffee_sans_cream@reddit
Sad, I've always had a soft spot for Ford's hatchbacks.
DataAI@reddit
Did it not sell well? Hatches are great and look pretty cool in my opinion….
TinyCarz@reddit
They did not.
born_Racer11@reddit
I think it did sell well. However, the profit margins were much less compared to suvs, crossovers and pockup trucks.
TinyCarz@reddit
Kinda…. They weren’t putting up the profitable civic/Corolla numbers to make it worth not focusing on the higher profitability larger vehicles especially in US. The sales did actually drop enough in Europe to say they’ve stopped selling well enough. Focus for example 400- 500k in 2000s down to low 200ks in the 2010s.
86Austin@reddit
an american hot hatch from the muscle car brand just felt weird and i think not very many people that wanted a hot hatch actually wanted the ford brand to bring them the hot hatch.
Great cars but this is not surprising to me.
rspndngtthlstbrnddsr@reddit
SHOCKING: American finds out the US is not the only country in the world
86Austin@reddit
cat got your tongue?
86Austin@reddit
I'm not sure what you mean by this in response to my comment but i think in markets outside of the USA this hatch would be an Even harder sell for the reason i mentioned. The ford brand doesn't say "small compact sports car" in the way that a ton of other options available in those other markets do.
Such-Bodybuilder-356@reddit
I wouldn’t classify Ford as a muscle car brand. They sell a muscle car but their bread and butter is as an suv and truck brand. Dodge is really the only muscle car brand imo (before they went EV).
daxelkurtz@reddit
Dead? Did they have a PowerShift transmission? Or an EcoBoost engine? Or-
piddydb@reddit
Any Europeans or American car industry insiders care to explain why American manufacturers all of a sudden seem to be dead set against selling European products that differ any from the American offerings? The Japanese sell a variety of cars in North America that have no real market elsewhere and do it well. Heck, Volkswagen is getting into that too with the Scout. But the Americans seem to be getting out of those types of products wherever they can. Are Europeans moving on from traditional hatchbacks? Or do they just not want ICE vehicles? Or is there something else?
juniortifosi@reddit
EU market is literally drowning in hatchback choices. Clio, Megane, Corsa, Astra, Corolla, Yaris, Jazz, 208, 308, C3, C4, Polo, Golf, Ibiza, Leon, Fabia, Scala, Tipo, i20. IONIQ5, Cee'd and Swift are the ones I can list on the spot.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
With a lot of these cars being practically the same car (the 208/Corsa/C3 and 308/Astra/C4 being the most obvious examples)
juniortifosi@reddit
Well almost entire VW lineup is either a Golf or a Polo. Global platforms for automotive groups are the norm nowadays.
SuperShyChild@reddit
In Europe, crossovers are taking over.
Looking at the top ten models sold in Europe throughout the past decade and breaking them down into their respective vehicle category.
2025: 5 hatchbacks, 5 crossovers
2024: 5 hatchbacks, 5 crossovers
2023: 7 hatchbacks, 3 crossovers
2022: 7 hatchbacks, 3 crossovers
2021: 7 hatchbacks, 3 crossovers
2020: 7 hatchbacks, 3 crossovers
2019: 8 hatchbacks, 2 crossovers
2018: 8 hatchbacks, 2 crossovers
2017: 8 hatchbacks, 2 crossovers
2016: 8 hatchbacks, 1 saloon, 1 crossover
2015: 8 hatchbacks, 1 saloon, 1 crossover
I can understand why. New car buyers skew older so they like a higher seating position and easier ingress and egress matters to these customers. Also they are seen as being more practical. Crossovers seem more like an SUV which allows manufacturers to justify a higher price point, making the car more profitable than a hatchback would have been.
juniortifosi@reddit
EU market is literally drowning in hatchback choices. Clio, Megane, Corsa, Astra, Corolla, Yaris, Jazz, 208, 308, C3, C4, Polo, Golf, Ibiza, Leon, Fabia, Scala, Tipo, i20. IONIQ5, Cee'd and Swift are the ones I can list on the spot.
filismo@reddit
Sad
TNTyoshi@reddit
Was never going to buy a new Ford anyways.
durrtyurr@reddit
I know a banker who has an identical Lunar silver Civic Si sedan to mine, and he is over 80 years old. Old people like hot hatches, they're easier to get into than actual sports cars, he traded a Testarossa in on it. Same reason that I know dozens of old people who own Subaru Outbacks, you don't have to climb up to get into it.
Sixgunslime@reddit
Man imagine being the sales guy that swapped a civic for a testarossa
Accomplished-Exit136@reddit
My uncle owned a used car lot. I watched him try to trade cars at a funeral with the survivors before the body was even underground. The best car salesman are straight up possessed
trail-g62Bim@reddit
This is one of the reasons crossovers and SUVs have become popular. I was in my early 30s when I traded in my small car for an SUV and even I don't want to go back to getting in and out of that car on a regular basis. And I don't have 80 yr old knees.
durrtyurr@reddit
My ideal seat height is 15 inches. Half a foot higher than my Evora, half a foot lower than my S90.
bentley72@reddit
They need to stick a 2.3 in the maverick for an ST edition
Lonehousewife@reddit
If they ever make a manual maverick, I would buy it in less then a heartbeat
uberdosage@reddit
What the Lobo should have been
surfsupdurban@reddit
It's incomprehensible to me that Ford would kill off all of their most popular vehicles in Europe, on the pretext of meeting the Euro deadline to phase out ICE vehicles, without actually having developed any plausible electric replacements. They're just shrugging their shoulders and giving up on making a selling vehicles in Europe 🤷
JEs4@reddit
Ford’s engineers contributed so much to the contemporary sport compact, most notably the control blade rear suspension design. This is truly a sad day.
TinyCarz@reddit
Yup. They really did say yes it’s a commuter car but it still needs to be enjoyable to drive. Never let cost concerns completely kill the spirit of driving performance
T-Baaller@reddit
I had more basic fiesta and focus at other times of life, and they were both very enjoyable to drive too.
I'm saddened to see them end production, sad that so much of the world didn't choose the same kind of enjoyment I had with them.
SecretApe@reddit
Some of the best drivers cars in the market. Now make dross VW products.
Their chassis were amazing and even the standard cars were fun to drive
blackbug12@reddit
End of an era. Rip to the ST and RS models.
cocoagiant@reddit
It's been gone for a few years for those of us in the States, sucks they are getting rid of them altogether.
bigshotdan@reddit
This hurts. Big time. I've owned five Ford hot hatches over the years. They're all brilliant cars. I'm genuinely gutted, even though I figured this was coming a few years ago... 😢
plasmid9000@reddit
Chevy Bolt owner checking in.
TwoMuchSaus@reddit
CAFE killed this car in the US. They shoulda offered a auto with mild hybrid to offset the low 20s mpg of the manual
Truck_Dog_SmokedMeat@reddit
Absolutely hate the current direction ford has taken over the last couple years.
SecretApe@reddit
I absolutely love my MK4.5 ST. Nothing they make appeals to me and as a Ford fan boy since young, this really stings.
Vazhox@reddit
And now the overwhelming prices will be more overwhelming!
Greifvogel1993@reddit
Good
MickFleetwood@reddit
Had a lightly tuned Focus ST for years. Shame they killed it because it really was a perfect daily.
Madder_Than_Diogenes@reddit
Four decades plus of hot hatches. It was epic while it lasted.