Explain zeroing a pistol red dot like I’m 5
Posted by ATPsynthase12@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 152 comments
I know I’m dumb and obviously overcomplicating it, but I’ve never had these issues with rifle red dots or Eotechs and my pistol experience is mostly with irons.
Anyways, I have a vortex defender CCW on a Xmacro. I’ve burned through 100 rounds of 9mm trying to get the damn thing sighted at 15 yards. I even bought a laser boresight to get an approximate zero but that didn’t really translate to paper.
I contacted the vortex support guy who basically said “the turrets are opposite of what is labeled watch this YouTube video designed for long range scopes”. Another offered me an RMA for repairs because I told him I run out of upward elevation before I can get it zeroed.
I’m 90% sure it’s user error and I don’t want to mail it to them for them to go “man this guy is dumb” and mail it back to me 2 weeks later.
So can someone explain to me before I smash it in a low IQ fit of rage: specifically on the elevation turret, why twisting the UP dial clockwise (as labeled) LOWERS the point of aim and why twisting counter clockwise RAISES the point of aim? How does this translate to point of impact on paper? Why does this not match my shots?
I’m out here missing shots at the range like I’m legally blind because of this thing. Send help.
Intelligent-Age-3989@reddit
You've mentioned wrong screws and remounting it in several replies. Have you done that??
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yes, I remounted with different screws and I’m gonna take it to the indoor range tomorrow to sight in
hbomb57@reddit
Put dot where bullets hits
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
It’s clearly not been that simple lol
I think the problem is either incorrect screw length, I had it mounted with an 11mm M4 screw and the slide manufacturer told me the slide is milled for a 10mm M4 screw (aftermarket parts problems).
Or
The optic is faulty because of issues with the elevation knob.
I’m gonna give it another shot this weekend with the manufacturer’s screws they are sending me and if that doesn’t work, I’m gonna return the optic as faulty and get a holosun EPS carry.
hbomb57@reddit
Yeah I was just being a smart because of the title. I can't really say, I have the eps carry on my 365xl and it was pretty much put dot where bullet hits. I always mess up the up/down left/right. But, should just be fire two, adjust, fire two, adjust. Should take more than a magazine. Must be something else going on.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Lmao no worries, wasn’t even the most smart ass comment on the thread.
Definitely screws were playing a part. True Precision sent me their screws and they fit about 2-3mm deeper on the slide than the ones that came with the optic so I think that might remedy the issue.
My new dilemma is dealing with the replacement true precision barrel they sent me. It fits TIGHT and has a very narrow tolerance compared to the first one i ordered so now im wondering if the barrel was out of spec and affecting zero as well.
Intelligent-Age-3989@reddit
Why are you having such a bad time building this thing?
anothercarguy@reddit
Check your mounts. If your screws are loose / without loctite or vibratite or whatever thread locker, it will never zero. If you are using a mounting plate dovetailed in, expect it will never zero until you bed the plate
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Potentially could be screw length. After discussing with the slide manufacturer, my current screws are M4 11mm in length and they recommend 10mm M4 screws. I did torque it properly and with blue loctite.
Also, I was misreading the labelling on the optic per their CS workers. If my POI is low, I need to rotate counter clockwise and bring my POA down which should correct the zero.
The manufacturer is sending the correct screws so I’m gonna remove the optic, remount with the correct screws, approximate the zero with my bore sight then go attempt to zero again. If I can’t figure it out by then, I’m just gonna consider it “faulty” and start a return with primary arms and use the refund on a holosun.
anothercarguy@reddit
Screw length will 100% cause issue.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Ok so this is a dumb question, screw length is dictated by the slide, not the optic right? So for example, if they use 10mm M4 screws, that won’t change between say vortex and Holosun, correct?
anothercarguy@reddit
Both if the screws for the optic go through the plate
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Well what I’m saying is, is the screw length/width dependent on the slide if the optic mounts directly to the slide?
anothercarguy@reddit
If it is too long or too short, how will you have the friction to maintain the torque?
MrStarBlue@reddit
Reply back to me if the issue got fixed by changing the screws, I was contemplating of buying this red dot, but now it seems otherwise.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
I wouldn’t blame the dot for the screws. I’m using an aftermarket True Precision slide and from going back and fourth between the two CS reps, they are saying my 11mm screw I used is too long and affecting the zero. I’m going to use the ones the slide manufacturer sent me and if this doesn’t work, I’m saying to hell with it and returning it
weldbutthole@reddit
Chase the rounds, if you’re shooting low left adjust the turrets low and left
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
I think I was confused by the turret layout and I suspect screw length is an issue and was making it impossible to zero. I was using an 11mm M4 screw and after contacting the aftermarket slide manufacturer, the slide was milled for 10mm M4 screws, so we will see if this helps when I go zero if this weekend
TokyoJu223@reddit
https://youtu.be/fSy8U9jkgHc?si=RfXBPBZ7Ngq7vmh8
I posted a link to this guy name short shot Tony and he talks to you with the intent to explain it as simple as possible while still explaining everything properly. This is how I learned to zero a red dot.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
I’ve been sent several helpful sources, I’ll look into it.
I think the issue might have been confusion with screw length. The screws I had it mounted on was 11mm M4 screws and the manufacturer stated the slides are milled for 10mm M4 screws and apparently incorrect screw fitment can cause the optic to not hold zero properly and can mess with the elevation turret specifically. I checked yesterday and there is also a gap between the slide and the optic so I think it’s a screw issue.
I’m gonna swap out the screws and see if this improves the issue and make an update post.
Drakenile@reddit
Stay away from guns until you're older son. Just remember it's not a toy.
Then I'd wait until you're probably 8 or so and start training you on a 10/22.
Adventurous_Emu_9274@reddit
Someone correct me if I’m wrong and idiot but can you not get it close by zeroing to irons and then firing to get a precise, final zero?
MaxStatic@reddit
I just adjust the dot so it sits on top of the front sight when properly aligned in the rear. Then one or two clicks down.
Shoot a three round group to verify and done.
Solidknowledge@reddit
If you spend any amount of time in a public range you will soon realize that this is above the skill level of most pistol shooters
Financial_Line1774@reddit
That’s what I always do at first. Just put the dot right above the front sight post and fine tune from there.
ArgieBee@reddit
On pistol red dots, treat "Up" as "move my point of impact up", not "move the point of aim up". Moving the turret up lowers the dot, meaning your gun is being aimed higher with the dot placed in the same given location.
The same goes for left/right.
doogles@reddit
Up mean boolet go up.
Right mean boolet go right.
Down mean boolet go down.
Left mean boolet go left.
Bozhark@reddit
“What’s boolet?”
Fucking regarded brain
Potential_Space@reddit
Exactly. When I'm zeroing a dot, I tell myself "I need the bullet to go left/up/wherever" so rotate the corresponding turret the direction it's labeled.
Ninja_rooster@reddit
True ELI5.
Dexter-the-Cat@reddit
This right here…. lol. I’m repeating this in my head every time I adjust an optic.
Marcg611@reddit
Yes, just zero d a holosun on shield plus, this is correct, move turret direction with POI desired change
ChrisWhiteWolf@reddit
Isn't that the same for rifle optics as well?
ArgieBee@reddit
Most of them, but not all. Some follow old scope conventions.
Chrisscott25@reddit
Um yes it is terry… I think they just confused themselves. Cause they said I move the holes to the poa or something like that. If the holes on the paper is moving to your point of aim the boolit be moving the same direction.
csbsju_guyyy@reddit
Yeah I've always kind of liked how it's "easy" to zero red dots.
"damn I'm way high and right, better turn towards left and down" and you can just walk it in.
The opposite with rifle scopes are the things that make me think too hard. I like the idea of moving the 'holes' to the aiming point rather than the aiming point to the hole, IDK why my brain just likes it better
yourmomsjubblies@reddit
I just put my rifles in a sled, fire a shot, keep the gun as steady as possible, and move the cross hair from the bullseye to the poi. If I'm not fighting wind or don't fuck up I can get a decent zero with one round and be dead nuts after 3.
SMORKIN_LABBIT@reddit
If you are zeroing properly (not fighting wind) 3 rds is all you should need.
daeather@reddit
Rifle scopes are the same. Up is still up.
USArmyJoe@reddit
OK smart guy, does down mean down then? Next thing you'll try to tell me is that right means right and left means left!
rdgy5432@reddit
Yea I don't know what these guys mean both are the same your moving the impact point
mo9722@reddit
probably mixing it up with rifle iron
chattytrout@reddit
Even rifle irons are the same, normally. It's only reversed when adjusting the front sight.
No_Promises7@reddit
Do... do you not know how to zero a rifle scope?
sadoproject@reddit
For everyone saying laser boresights are garbage, you're right, they are. But, you can use an off axis boresight to get dead center, and even correct an off axis boresight.
This is primarily for the "stick it in the end of the barrel" type boresights, unless you have a reasonably convenient means of rotating the "bullet shaped thing in the chamber" type.
Set up at your preferred distance from a wall, preferably with your firearm in a clamp on a tripod or otherwise secured to a fixed platform.
Insert the laser boresight and rotate it, where it will trace a circle on the wall.
Using cardinal points like North/South/East/West, Top/Bottom/Left/Right, whatever you want to call them. Rotate the boresight between each opposing pair of points, and align your dot/scope/irons/whatever to center between them. Then do the same for the other pair of opposing points.
Repeat the above at least one more time. The first pass will get you roughed in, the second or third will get you as dead nuts center as your eyeballs will allow.
If you want to correct an off-axis laser boresight, you will likely find that if you remove the stickers from it, you will find two adjustment screws for correction. Personally I prefer it to be off axis by 3 to 5 widths of a 2MOA dot at roughly 50ft, as I find the rotation method above to be very reliable and quick to dial in.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I def think it’s the optic after trying this. What the CS worker told me was incorrect as well. and I can’t even get enough elevation to overlap the boresight now. Marred the elevation screw in the process.
Should have gotten a holosun.
sadoproject@reddit
Just read in your other response about the screws being too long. That 1mm extra length will definitely make a difference. I'd get the proper screws before doing anything else.
I have a mix of primarily Holosun and Vortex, with a few EOTechs and a couple other random makes thrown in. I have no issues with the Vortex stuff at all. Quite nice for the price point actually.
The only out of adjustment range issues I've had on any of them were chasing a laser bore sight that was way too far off, bad screws, and once where I neglected to take the protective sticker off the slide when swapping a Sig Romeo out for Holosun.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Ok so you think using a too long screw will make a difference when the width/threading and torque is correct? How will this affect zeroing?
I have the slide manufacturer sending me the proper screws for the slide (M4x0.7 10mm length) and a new barrel due premature wear on the coating (True Precision CS is great).
Again, my issue is: when zeroing at 15 yards, I run out of UP (clockwise) clicks before my POI and POA align.
sadoproject@reddit
Yep, screw length, even if you're achieving correct torque, can make a huge difference. I was working on a buddys slide a while back, and the rear screw holes were slightly deeper than the fronts. I could hit proper torque on all four, but the rears were torquing against the optic itself, and the fronts were hitting torque value by bottoming out in the hole, causing the optic to angle up a bit. It felt solid and properly mounted, no visible gap, but over even a short distance it would hit end of adjustment before it would align with the bore.
I pulled a couple shorter screws out of the random screw bin, torqued the front down, and it was dead center at the middle of its adjustment range.
Maybe grab a flashlight and try shining it to one side while you look at the other side for any light showing between slide and optic. That gap was very visible when I forgot to take the protective sticker off (used by the Romero Zero to protect the exposed battery/electronics on the bottom).
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Ok, so I’m gonna swap out the screws to 10mm M4 and attempt to re-zero this weekend. I also spoke to the rep again who reiterated that I am adjusting the elevation knob the wrong way. He also said incorrect screw usage can make groups erratic and zeroing impossible. So this may be my issue.
Ex: At 15 yards with my shots landing 4 inches below my point of aim.
Per their instructions, I need to rotate counter clockwise which will bring my point of aim down to my point of impact and thus “zero” the optic. At 15 yards, this will be approx 7 clicks counter clockwise per inch.
optic markings for reference
sadoproject@reddit
If I'm completely honest, I never look at the markings for turning the adjustment which direction does what. My dot/optic zero procedure is:
Set up at my preferred distance from a wall
Clamp the firearm in a tripod and snug things down while it's pointing in the correct direction
Insert an off-axis laser bore sight in the bore
While looking through the optic, rotate the laser bore sight to see where the extremes at the cardinal directions are
Starting with azimuth (left/right, east/west, whatever), I turn the adjustment both directions until it gets centered
Then doing elevation (top/bottom, left/right), I turn the adjustment both directions until centered
Repeat the previous two steps at least once, sometimes adjusting optic output to its lowest naked-eye visible illumination level (makes the dot glare less and is perceived as smaller)
When you have the firearm mounted stationary it makes the whole process so much easier. Not once do I bother looking at the pictograms around the adjustment screws or at the manual. I just fiddle with it until it goes the direction I want it to adjust to get it dead center in the circle the cheap ass amazon laser bore sights trace around it when rotated.
At 15 yards, a 4 inch difference in elevation between dot and PoI is just 0.424° off, so you're working with small numbers here. Technically it's smaller than 0.424° due to parallax (your optic is above the bore and closer to the target than the rearward point of intersection in that imaginary triangle), but it still highlights the reason a solid mount is crucial if you're going to have a good time with optics.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Ok I’m going to do this, however my 9mm chamber bore sight seems to have a different trajectory every time I zero on it and whah the vortex CS workers were telling me to do, doesn’t line up with what is ACTUALLY happening when I use the bore sight.
but two things:
Explain to me why the vortex reps keep telling me to dial the elevation down so my red dot moves down when my impacts are low. However, when I use the bore sight, it tells me I need to raise my point of aim. The two datapoints don’t translate.
Also, how will long screws affect ability to group, hold zero, and will it impact elevation adjustments.
That’s my two big issues. If I can get it figured out I’d like to save myself an RMA because I really do want to like the optic.
sadoproject@reddit
They're telling you to push the dot down to where your point of impact is, so the two will line up as intended. That's a normal course of action when everything else is correct (mount is flat and secure, straight barrel, etc..), but I don't think they're doing the bigger picture thing, just first tier tech support reading the directions to you.
As for screws and it wandering, if the optic isn't completely torqued down evenly to spec, it's going to shift a tiny little bit with every shot you take. Each firing is a significant jolt to the optic and its mount. It might be small differences, but as I mentioned, you're dealing with really small numbers having a really large impact on performance.
Clean the bottom of the optic and the mount plate/slide, remove any stickers or spacers that aren't supposed to be there, mount it flat with even torque across all screws, and use a tiny little drop of blue loctite on each screw, letting it cure overnight, so that when you put it there, it stays there.
The reason rotating the off-axis boresight works is that you're just averaging out the error on the extremities. If you're 6 inches off to the top at its high point in rotation, and 6 inches low at its low point, centering it between the two is cancelling that error out. Since the boresight is using the barrel of the gun as its own axis of rotation, that cancelled error results in dead center placement for your shots.
It can be frustrating, but once you get everything in your head to line up with everything that's happening with the thing in your hand, it's one of those things that sticks with you good and proper.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I think it’s the screws. That being said, I’m shocked an extra mm would make this big of a difference.
I’m gonna pull it off and when the screws arrive I’m gonna re mount how you suggest. If it doesn’t work this time then I’m going to consider my optic faulty and start a return with primary arms
Caligula-6@reddit
Tighten the bolts connecting your optic to the pistol and then put witness marks on them. Could be theyre walking out under recoil.
After that verify you have a legit vortex and not a knockoff.
If its still having issues there is the unlikely scenario that your optic is broke. It is however much more likely at this point you (with due respect) need to practice more. Rifle fundamentals aren't a 1:1 for pistol marksmanship fundamentals.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
it’s a legit vortex, I got it from primary arms.
The screws might be a factor. I have them tightened properly and with thread locker, however it’s on an aftermarket true precision slide and after talking with their reps, their slides are fitted for M4x0.7 10mm screws and I think the ones I have on are 11mm M4. Could that cause the issue I’m running into?
Also, I’m sure skill is a factor, I don’t claim to be a competition shooter, but I have experience. I have no issues grouping with the irons enough to feel proficient with a pistol. However my groupings with this red dot make me look I’m cross eyed.
mycoolaccount@reddit
If you’re bottoming out the screws that absolutely would cause all the issues you’re describing.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Cool. I have the slide manufacturer sending me a set of screws to try, however their rep tried telling me that it may not work as the Vortex dot uses a “M4 6mm” screw which is clearly bullshit and does not exist as it did not come with the mounting kit.
I’m gonna give it one more shot before I say to hell with it and return it for a holosun.
ceapaire@reddit
This could be an issue if they're bottoming out before properly securing the optic.
MGB1013@reddit
That was my first thought. I have had this happen before to me and I’ve seen other improperly mounted optics work loose.
AptMoniker@reddit
Follow this dude on YouTube.
No_Staff594@reddit
Pistol shoots bullet. Bullet flies same way every time. Put dot on pistol. Dot points forwards but might not line up with the way your bullets fly. Move dot up down left and right to line up with where bullets are going. Pistol bullets fly like rainbow arc due to gravity. Zero at 10 yards will be at beginning of rainbow so shooting 25 yards bullet will be high. Zero at around 25 bullet will be top of rainbow so 10 and 100 yards will be a little low because two ends of rainbow. Zero at 25 and practice at all ranges = shoot good and smart brain when wondering where bullet will hit as any range.
drugs_are_bad__mmkay@reddit
Out of curiosity, where did you order your red dot?
If from somewhere like Amazon, see if you can verify through vortex that it’s legit
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Primary Arms. So a reputable place. I bought my Eotech from them a few years ago too and it’s held up great. No issues zeroing either.
d8_thc@reddit
One time the up down dial stopped doing anything on my vortex. It took me a while to figure out and they replaced it.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Mine is running out of UP elevation within 15 yards, so likely a faulty turret. I confirmed it with my boresight last night and it couldn’t line up totally at 15 yards which SHOULDNT be an issue since it is designed to be zeroed anywhere from 10 yards to 100. It’s on an aftermarket slide, but the 1 devre
So my dilemma is: would you send it to vortex to repair/replace or would you return it to primary arms for a refund and buy a holosun EPS carry?
I like the optic, but getting a lemon optic and putting myself through this much of a headache has put a bad taste in my mouth.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Another factor someone else mentioned, how, does using a mount screw that’s too long zeroing?
ceapaire@reddit
Assuming you mean " how does using a screw too long affect zeroing", if you're bottoming out and not fully clamping down on the optic, there's nothing to stop the optic from shifting around (within whatever tolerances there are in the holes + any available upward movement). So your shot placement won't be consistent enough to zero + if the front of the optic is sitting high due to being able to catch on the threads of the bolts/not fully seated properly, your optic will be pointing up above your point of impact. This could, if severe enough, shift your POA above the POI enough that you can't zero.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
I’m worried this is what is happening. I’m gonna give it one more shot with the new screws before sending it back to primary arms for a refund or vortex to replace.
Can this be happening even there is no visible gap or clear shift?
ceapaire@reddit
I don't know about elevation issues, but it could still be shifting a bit with recoil so the zero's not consistent, even if it's hand tight.
drugs_are_bad__mmkay@reddit
Oh yeah - it’s legit.
How does your shooting compare to with irons?
EGWguns@reddit
Take a look at this blog we wrote. Hope it helps!: https://egwguns.com/blog/mastering-optic-adjustments-how-to-zero-your-red-dot-like-a-pro/
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Ok so here is my issue, and I can’t figure out if it is the optic or me.
At 15 yards, I shoot a 3-5 round group. Last grouping before I gave up was 3-5 inches below my point of aim. So I rotated the turret clockwise or in the UP direction but run out of elevation before I can bring the POI and POA together. I see my shots climbing, but for a dot designed to be zeroed between 10-100 yards, it seems faulty that it runs out of elevation at 15 yards with a 1 degree shim plate.
Should I send it to vortex to repair/replace or get a refund from primary arms and get a new optic entirely?
EGWguns@reddit
First, have you tried it without the shim? If not I would try it without the shim just to see where you are.
Second, is the shim installed correctly? We see plenty of people install them incorrectly and that could be the issue. For your situation (shots hitting low), ensure the thicker part of the shim is at the rear of the red dot. This tilts the front of the optic slightly downwards, giving your 'UP' adjustment more range to bring the point of impact up.
Lastly, if you done all of that correctly, there is a fair chance there is an issue with the dot. We would suggest contacting Vortex directly for a repair/replacement. Their customer service and warranty service is second to none.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
After discussing with the slide manufacturer, it appears that I may be mounting the dot with screws that are 1 mm too long. Per vortex customer support, this can cause inconsistent grouping and inability to zero as the optic may be shifting.
I’m gonna use the correct length screws and attempt to re-zero and see if this fixes the issue. If it doesn’t, then I’m just gonna initiate a return with primary arms and get a holosun EPS carry
sttbr@reddit
Repeat 1-3 until desired result.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I think mounting might be an issue.
I’m gonna re mount with the new correct screws (I’m using 11mm length M4 screws and the slide manufacturer recommends 10mm M4 screws) and try to re-zero at an indoor range. After getting some more opinions, having screws that are too long may be affecting my ability to zero. And causing my elevation issues and inconsistent groupings. My groupings have been abysmal since mounting the red dot. And have zero correlation with said dot POA.
I’m not a competition level shooter by any means, but this red dot makes me look like I’m shooting cross eyed.
Further, I think this issue plus overthinking the adjustment process has made it more frustrating that it should have.
If I can’t zero with that, I’m gonna return it to primary arms for a refund and get an EPS carry. Vortex sent me a warranty claim, but I really don’t want to wait 2-3 weeks for them to tell me the optic is fine.
IAmMagumin@reddit
You can always simulate the adjustment if you forget.
For instance, looking through the rds, you can manually shift the dot somewhere by turning the pistol slightly. Let's say you have it shifted to the left like this: [. ]
Now, what direction does the muzzle move to return the dot to center [ . ]? ➡️
So, adjusting the dot LEFT using the windage adjustment on your rds will make your shots move RIGHT and vice versa. I use this in my head with rds and iron sights a lot.
gunfriends@reddit
Based on all your comments, You should send it in. It’s either a slide/ mounting issue or the optic itself.
DumbNTough@reddit
Clamp pistol in vice. Shoot one round. Move dot to cover first hole. Shot again to confirm.
Zeroed in two shots 🧠
73-68-70-78-62-73-73@reddit
Don't think about this. Present your pistol so the dot is in the middle of the window. Forget about the irons. Fire three shots. Move the turrets in the direction you want the bullets to go. If you're hitting left, you want the bullets to go right. Turn the turret in the direction labeled Right.
I don't understand how it works, but it does, and it's magic. I had to forget about my presentation with iron sights, and any concept of moving the dot around the window with the turrets. The turrets move where the bullets go.
Fianna019@reddit
Your dot d
73-68-70-78-62-73-73@reddit
It's black magic.
2MGR@reddit
Cowitness the dot with ironsights.
clientnotfound@reddit
Shoot a group.
Aim in the center of the group.
Make adjustments towards bullseye.
Shoot another group. It should be closer to bullseye. If you've crossed over the axis/bullseye you've adjusted too far.
I don't know why I struggled with it for so long but framing it like this helps it in my head.
N226@reddit
Pravus_Nex@reddit
Line up the irons, slave the for to the front sight.. test for results.. that normally gets dot within min of man, little fine tuning after that and it'll be when I want it.. that's the easiest way.. when I test it I choose the same spot on the target and for a few rounds, if that group is a little right I adjust them try again.. but slaving the dot to the irons gets rid of like 90% of the screwing around..
CountryTyler@reddit
Go to range. Shoot pistol at paper target from short distance away. Move dot to where bullet hole in paper is. Zero.
Mexicangod03@reddit
I’ll just draw it
kkaaoossuu@reddit
Going through the same thing learning this myself
gecon@reddit
Forget the POA/POI stuff. Think of it this way: the turrets change where the holes end up. If you want the holes to go up, turn the elevation turret in the up direction. If you want the holes to go down, move the elevation turret in the down direction. It's as simple as that.
repdetec_revisited@reddit
And they do it that way, because that is what you would want in an emergency
Real_Mila_Kunis@reddit
I mean I don’t think you’re zeroing a dot in an emergency
repdetec_revisited@reddit
Ya probably not. But let’s pretend you are in a situation where you need to take out some bad guys at 100 or 200 yards and all you have is your shitty sig that’s zeroed for way shorter than that. You’d need to walk your shots to the bad guy, right? You wouldn’t be like, ah I was x inches off of the bulls eye. You don’t have time for that shit. Miss low -> next hole needs to be higher
Hyrc@reddit
I love the mental picture of a dude in a gun fight with a screwdriver adjusting the zero on his red dot to walk in his shots. If this isn't in the next John Wick or Accountant movie, automatic 1 star loss in my mind.
Sir_Baller@reddit
I don’t think that’s why the turrets were made that way, but it’s nice to see how creative the mind is
sofa_king_awesome@reddit
I would agree with you, Mila Kunis.
tgpussypants@reddit
Sofa King Awesome. What a good sketch that was
sofa_king_awesome@reddit
I concur, tgpussypants.
scroapprentice@reddit
I think they do it that way because that’s how every optic and every rear iron sight works, not for emergency zeroing, which isn’t a thing, you want to be zeroed long before an emergency
repdetec_revisited@reddit
That’s why all that shit zeros that way too
FuzzyPickLE530@reddit
All I did was co witness to my irons and I was set.
Dont_stopmemeow@reddit
Zero at 100
D_Rock_CO@reddit
I don't know if this will work or not, but if you can co-witness with your iron sights you can adjust the dot so that it sits right where you want it just by lining up your sights and moving the dot there. In other words, line up irons, move the dot until it's sitting right on top of the front sight/right behind the front sight (whichever you want). No shots fired. If your irons are on, your dot is on.
I hope I made that clear enough. Sometimes when I'm shooting I'll lose the ability to get right on the dot after I draw or move too much. I would spend the time searching for it until I realized that all I had to do was just line up my irons and there it was.
Good luck!
redtree48@reddit
Indoor range, set the target at the appropriate distance, get a chair, sit in the chair, rest your arms and the gun on the table in front of you in your lane, do your best to not move the pistol when you pull the trigger, move your point of impact to your point of aim not the other way around. If you aim at the center of a bull’s-eye, and the bullet hits low left move your red dot up and to the right.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
So, say I’m hitting say 4 MOAs down and 1 to the right. 1 MOA is 1 inch and one ‘click’ is approx 0.15 inches at 15 yards
Elevation turret is labelled: UP Clockwise
Windage turret is labelled: RIGHT counter clockwise
To make sure my POI and POA align, I should do 28 clicks COUNTER CLOCKWISE (down) on the elevation turret and 7 clicks clockwise (left) on the windage turret. Right?
timmah1991@reddit
You have it reversed. “Up” moves the hole in the paper up.
redtree48@reddit
Yes that sounds right. Move your dot down and to the left.
heavilyarmeddad@reddit
What do your groupings look like?
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
I mean, I’m not getting sub MOA groupings like I’m a competition pistol shooter, but the problem isn’t that the grouping is so wide that I can’t group it. It’s that I fundamentally don’t understand why the zeroing process is so different from a rifle
SnakeDoctor00@reddit
It’s not different. You shoot, taking out the most of human error as you possibly can, and adjust the red dot accordingly. Why do you think it’s so different?
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Because the pistol red dot never matches my point of aim even when I adjust it the way I do with my rifle optics AND runs out of upward elevation before I can get the optic zeroed. Confirmed it with my boresight again tonight on a stable platform and couldn’t even get the red dot adjusted high enough to cover the bore sight. Marred the adjustment screw pretty bad in the process.
I’m just gonna send it to vortex and let them tell me it’s user error. I’ll then smash it with a hammer and buy a Holosun like I should have instead of getting this dud optic on sale with Primary Arms.
SnakeDoctor00@reddit
It’s still the same. If you aim with the dot and your shots hits to the left of center then you change the windage whichever direction according to the optic you want the group to go. So if it says clockwise turn “R” that moves the group right, so you’d need a counterclockwise turn.
Depending on how you have the optic mounted and torqued, can play huge roles in properly zeroing. Not saying it’s not a bad optic but you definitely shouldn’t even need a bore sight with it. Those are usually complete trash and at best get you on paper but with a pistol you can start close and you should be hitting paper at 7yds without a dot.
backatit1mo@reddit
Bro. Always aim the dot at the center of your target, no matter what.
If your rounds impact left and below the target, that means you need to move your windage to the right, and your elevation up. Keep walking it in.
Helps if you understand what an MOA is and get a zero target for pistols with 1 MOA squares. I’ve done it so much I just wing that shit lol
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yeah, that’s what I thought when I first tried to zero it. Like it’s not THAT hard.
Unfortunately I think I got a bad optic or the elevation knob is broken. I seem to consistently run out of clicks to rise the red dot up while my point of impact is 3-5 inches below my dot. I’m gonna RMA it tomorrow.
backatit1mo@reddit
Sometimes, there might be a slight angle on the cut by error. The smallest angle can cause the optic run out of elevation and not be able to zero. This happened on my shield plus. Couldn’t zero my Holosun. Shim plate can help but may not be a permanent solution.
Or the optic can be slightly out of spec, cause those issues as well.
I have a vortex defender ccw on my x macro as well, and it zeroed perfectly fine without any shim plates. So maybe yea try to get it warrantied, the try to zero again with new optic. If it fails to zero again, you know it’s gotta be a cut issue
antle702@reddit
10yds
thrash907@reddit
The sage
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yeah I’ll look into it, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this red dot is faulty. I’m consistently running out of elevation anywhere 3-5 inches below my point of aim even with their 1 degree shim plate that supposedly adds an additional 60 clicks.
The optic does not even have enough elevation to zero at 15 yards.
thrash907@reddit
Yea sounds like an issued with the device. The Vortex warranty policy is top notch though.
jan-lgc@reddit
Teaching people to zero, generally ends up being the shooter cranking on the trigger or tensing up as they squeeze. If you can hit a tight grouping with irons, then it’s the optic, if not, it’s you. Test first at 5 yds, if it’s like most pistol optics, 20 clicks = 1 inch / 10yds: 10 clicks/inch / 25yds: 4 clicks/inch.
Effective_Village390@reddit
Stop wasting your time sighting in at the range. Go get one of those bore lasers off amazon for 20$ that fits all calibers and sight it in down a hallway in your house. From THERE you can make fine adjustments at the range.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Tried that, didn’t fix the elevation issue nor reliably give me a zero.
I think the optic is a lemon. I’m just gonna send it to vortex and if they tell me nothing is wrong, I’m just gonna smash it with a hammer and buy an Eotech.
Effective_Village390@reddit
Damn. Yeah I'd clock it as a dud then. Even the cheapest sight I've had will line up with a bore laser at about 25ft.
Stretchearstrong@reddit
Measure 25yds. Staple up BIG paper/cardboard with a 3" circle drawn on it. Hold gun as lightly as possible on sandbag so as not to influence POI. Note where bullet went in relation to point of aim. Where people fuxk up is thinking theyre moving the dot over to the POI. You're moving the POI to your POA. If the bullet hits RIGHT of where you aimed, you move the windage LEFT.
Stretchearstrong@reddit
Boresights suck because they're not going to be concentric to your barrel. They might fight snugly, but if you rotate the boresight 180°, you'll have a different position than when you started.
KepplerRunner@reddit
My boresight only moves maybe two inches when I shine it across my house (about 40 to 50ft). And I have a cheap Amazon one. Its gotten me at least within 4 or five inches every time I've used it if not being dead on. If yours does rotate in a circle when you spin it in the barrel, all you have to do is put your red dot in the center of the circle to account for the laser not being exactly parallel.
Stretchearstrong@reddit
For no dollars extra, I just shoot my gun and observe the impact. But I get what you're saying.
Internal_Werewolf_48@reddit
Lemme know where I can get some of that free ammo I can use for zeroing.
Stretchearstrong@reddit
No dollars EXTRA. Extra is the key word, I'd rather buy the ammo than buy a tool that can be replaced by being resourceful. A fool and his money are soon parted.
PancakesandScotch@reddit
I threw mine out after doing exactly that
ServoIIV@reddit
I had an issue with running out of elevation zeroing a Vortex Venom on a Ruger Mark IV Tactical. I found out that the particular combination of rail, dot, and pistol were not able to be zeroed properly without getting a 2 degree shim to cant the sight slightly downward. It might be that your slide, optic plate, barrel, and dot combination may need a shim in order to solve the elevation problem.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
I’m using the 1 degree shim already and ran out of upward elevation clicks. Then the customer support guy told me I was rotating it the wrong way, but when it twist it the opposite way, my hits don’t even make it on paper.
ServoIIV@reddit
Are you out of elevation and hitting low or hitting high? After reading your description again you don't really say which direction you need to go.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Out of elevation and hitting low.
ServoIIV@reddit
Just to verify that the thicker end of the shim is facing the back of the gun? If it is you need a bigger shim. By pushing the back of the sight up it raises the muzzle when you are aiming, raising the point of impact.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
Yes, it’s a RMSc mount so the shim plate only goes on one way. That being said, I’m gonna send it in for the RMA and ask them to send me another shim plate. Even with my boresight I can’t get enough elevation now to overlap the two. The elevation screw is pretty marred now by their sight adjustment tool from my attempts.
If that doesn’t work I’m gonna beat it with a hammer and buy a holosun.
BlueberryBaller@reddit
i take 1 shot, move the dot to it with the turrets and repeat. i also use a bag and bench when possible.
irony-identifier-bot@reddit
In the future, if you set your pistol up so that you can see your pistol sights through the window, (co-witness,) all you have to do is make sure the dot covers your front sight while your sights are lined up. If your sights are on, your dot will be on. Zero round zero.
SeveN62Armed@reddit
Wait, am I trippin? I just line my dots up with the iron sights and it’s pretty dead on every time. The optic body might block the dot but you can tell where it is. Just put it there and go shoot, see what happens.
ATPsynthase12@reddit (OP)
No you’re not lmao I tried that
So my problem is that I get the dot lined up with the front irons, then my shots are way low, like missing paper low. So I adjust the elevation and run out of clicks before I can get it on the bullseye.
SeveN62Armed@reddit
I think I explained that incorrectly, my bad. Line up the front and rear sights, put dot on top of front sight post, forget iron sights exist, put dot on target, pull trigger.
You don’t have to line up the dot with the irons to shoot, just to get the dot semi zerod. When you shoot forget the irons exist. The hole should be where the dot is regardless of where it is in the window.
Castorias@reddit
Before turning a screw, think 'My bullet needs to come _____' Then turn the corresponding screw in the direction of the filled blank.
Unusual-Ad-1056@reddit
Put dot on target.. shoot move dot up down left or right.. zero lol 😂
BlueOrb07@reddit
Explanation of reticle: you want hole left? Turn turret saying it’ll go left. You want hole up from where you hit? Turn turret saying go up.
Explanation of getting it sighted in easier: I struggle with pistols, but I’ve vastly improved and I’ve taken some high level classes. Start at 2 yards and work your way out. If you’re hitting where you want at 2 yards, it may differ slightly from 7/10 yard poi, but it won’t be significant as if it was sighted in wrong. As you work your way out, adjust as needed with 2-5 round groups between adjustments (assume 1-2 are flyers). About 7/10 yards is where your zero really needs to be on. This should mostly be fixed from your sighting in as you work out to 7-10 yards. You will continue this with finer adjustments to 25 yards or however far you are sighting in to. If you struggle with accuracy at 25 yards, try sitting or squatting and resting your hands on a bench or bag to give more support so it’s less user error. When you finish, it should be sighted in.
TheJango22@reddit
How to zero - Trex Arms
YeetedSloth@reddit
Pistol red dots are as easy as it gets. You shoot a grouping with the gun resting on a sandbag as tight as possible. Move the red dot to where the group was. New group should be where the dot it
MisanthropicNun@reddit
Put dot where bullet hits
dragon_sack@reddit
You are too young to be worried about zeroing a pistol. Go drink some chocky milk and take a nap.
AverageJun@reddit
Shoot
Adjust
Shoot again
irierider@reddit
Make dot cover hole in paper
PinheadLarry2323@reddit
Bullets landing low, turn the elevation turret counterclockwise
Bullets landing high, turn it clockwise
Bullets landing left, turn right
Bullets landing right, turn left
If you’re moving the elevation turret clockwise and running out of clicks, and it still isn’t lined up, it could be an issue where your optic isn’t installed properly. Vortex usually includes a 1 degree shim plate to tilt the optic slightly, have you tried with or without that to see if it helps?