Americans Are Growing Less Interested in Buying Electric Vehicles, Study Says.
Posted by Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 859 comments
hydrochloriic@reddit
I also suspect a lot of people realize that without the ability to charge at home, there’s almost no cost savings to an EV- and home ownership is VERY low without any expectation of increasing. So why would people buy an expensive EV that will end up costing them more in energy than a gas car would anyway?
guy_incognito784@reddit
To me, that's the biggest barrier for more people considering an EV, that and it's a fucking pain on long road trips.
With the removal of the EV tax credit, I'd imagine that'll also hurt demand a lot.
DoublePostedBroski@reddit
My condo HOA said they didn’t want to put in EV chargers because “it’s just a fad and no one here really has them.”
Live-Habit-6115@reddit
This is circular logic though. No one has an EV there because there are no EV chargers
clydesdale6969@reddit
They're right.
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
I've started renting cars for longer trips, and I don't even have an EV. It's shockingly cheap, keeps wear and tear down on my cars, and lets me try lots of random makes/models. Kinda fun actually.
And compared to my fleet, usually the rentals are more fuel efficient. I can keep my stuff for fun/around town/within a couple hours of home where I can enjoy my impractical classics.
Renting is awesome.
RyanB_@reddit
Seriously don’t understand why it’s not more common.
Trucks too, so many owners who actually use the utility of a truck once a year, if that. Far cheaper to just rent one the few times you need it.
YourOwnBiggestFan@reddit
Steps to renting a car: evaluate various rental offerings, check for availability on the most promising one, if you fail in #2, go back to #1, keep repeating until you find the right one, pick it up from the designated spot, use it, bring it to the designated spot, usually after having refilled the tank.
Steps to driving your own car: drive away, use it, go back home.
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
IMO, most people don't want practical solutions - they want justifications for their choices. Which is lame, buy what you want because you want it and screw what people think. Or don't buy what you don't want, whatever.
Plus us Americans tend to have these massive aspirations that very much exceed our capacity to execute on. RVs, boats, campers, vans... how many do we drive past every day that are sitting and rotting, never being used. I'd rather rent all of the above too. Cheaper, better, easier but no dopamine hit from buying the latest toy, and that's what people really like.
PaulTheMerc@reddit
I pay less for a month of insurance than it would cost to rent a vehicle for the weekend. And that's if I plan to drive 10 miles or 300.
MooselookManiac@reddit
Can you please write a pamphlet for my wife so she stops asking to buy a second home and an RV?
I LOVE renting shit that I won't ever have to deal with again.
LowAd3406@reddit
Lol, you're just so much smarter, practical, and forward thinking than everyone else, aren't you?
MooselookManiac@reddit
Whoosh.
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
Read my post again. Do what you want because it's what you want to do. That's all the justification you need. We draw these crazy conclusions and schemes in our heads because we're worried about how others will perceive us.
Do whatever impractical shit you want, it's your life. But we don't need the silly cover stories, especially when the holes are so easily poked.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
That’s not an American thing. That’s a human thing. Singling it out as just an American thing is weird.
But I get it. It’s Reddit, so America bad upvotes to the left.
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
We do have a stereotype for a reason, for having all the toys and big trucks and whatever compared to our peers. Most 1st world countries are consumerists to some degree, but you can't deny that Americans love to spend and show off. Especially our middle class.
It's practically our identity, the idea that anyone can make it or whatever. And when you do, flaunting it is almost impulsive.
Critical-Positive858@reddit
not sure if its a COL thing but rentals in NYC are expensive. also dealing with the rental companies can be a nightmare. they put me in a clapped out EV with no battery once and I said never again
RyanB_@reddit
Oh I’m sure it varies, tho from what I gather pretty much anything vehicle related is going to be a lot more expensive in NYC lol.
Around my parts, you can get a new ram rented for a day for $114 (tho I’m sure there’s extra fees and such). If you’re only needing it once a year, certainly cheaper than the extra amount you’d spend on gas owning a truck vs a smaller car.
ORNODC@reddit
You can also rent a pickup from Home Depot (and maybe Lowes?) If you need one for some work for a day. Even cheaper than $114, and you probably aren't required to bring it back clean.
perennialpurist@reddit
My truck gets the same gas mileage with my driving as I was getting in my Subaru Outback - so that old gas mileage difference doesn’t hold up. I’ve also owned my truck just over 3 months and already used it for actual truck stuff plenty of times. I can also put both my kids in rear facing car seats in the back and still have room for one full size adult to sit comfortably, which is not possible in a minivan since they are narrower and most have captain’s chairs second row. My truck was also cheaper (STX with big manufacturer rebates) than a decently equipped minivan run nowadays
SophistXIII@reddit
More than once I've heard of people reserving an ICE vehicle and the rental company ends up sticking them with an EV because that's all that is available.
Now imagine specifically reserving an ICE vehicle for a road trip and getting handed the keys to an EV 🤡
MooselookManiac@reddit
Just happened to me a few months ago on a ski trip in CO. Range anxiety takes on a whole new meaning when you're trying to make it over the mountain pass and you are losing 1% of range per mile.
Colorful_Monk_3467@reddit
Assuming you just went from Denver to Breck (or any nearby resort), an EV should've been fine - there's plenty of chargers on the way.
MooselookManiac@reddit
It ended up being okay - we made it with 10% battery left. But it was annoying waiting for it to charge in the grocery store parking lot when we would rather be enjoying our vacation.
Then of course there's the $35 fee for returning it with under 80% charge, which we paid because nobody wanted to get up an hour early so we could guarantee that we had time to stop and charge it before returning to the airport.
EVs just suck as rental cars for now.
TurkeyBLTSandwich@reddit
Yeah that's when you turn around and rent from a different place if you have the option and doing a charge back.
If were going to see a cleaner energy or efficiency. We're going to see Hybrids and maybe Plug in Hybrids.
If we had a green revolution we'd have more mixed use communities that are walkable and more mass transit options.
Hybrid cars and Electric cars aren't the future, other countries figured it out. America just hasn't or refuses to.
Subsidies for mass transit is balked at, but farm subsidies? Nbd. Subsidies for random highway in Midwest that'll be under utilized mostly? He'll yes
Objective_Mail117@reddit
You're 100% correct on everything. Rural votes "count more" (legislature, electoral college) - so that's the ethanol/corn/RFS situation for you. "Really inefficient solar power" I've heard it called. Mass transit is largely used by lower income folks (in the US) - who vote at much lower rates - so that's the other side of the under investment coin too. Others have critiqued this much more elegantly than me. Note I in no way support a "us versus them" "rural versus urban" way of thinking about the country - that's just to pit groups of working class folk against each other.
Dangerous-Pie_007@reddit
We've rented a larger vehicle for road trips, and it's great. At the time, we owned a VW Jetta, which fit the 4 of us just fine around town. For trips with family we needed something bigger so we rented. That way, we didn't have the hassle and expense of driving something way bigger than we needed 50 weeks out of the year when we only needed that size for 2 weeks. EVs would be the same scenario.
StandupJetskier@reddit
We rent a F250 or bigger three times a year to tow our race car to the races....that truck would be a waste the other 350 days of the year.
Colorful_Monk_3467@reddit
Where do you rent an F250 from?
TheAlphaCarb0n@reddit
I'd rent a pickup on occasion for big stuff the way I rent a moving van, but I'd never rent a normal car to keep miles off of my own normal car. I pay insurance and financing so that I can go anywhere any time, without dealing with rental companies.
Unpopular_Ninja@reddit
I have a truck because of a few reasons, but before you read them I will absolutely agree if you live in a CITY there is zero reason to own one. However if you are outside the city 1). The modern day truck can take me and my family on a 12+ hour drive through the states with our luggage for a week plus vacation no problem. 2). I have a boat that I need to tow in the summer, a quad I need to either tow or put in the bed of the truck, my tractor with a front bucket, gotta tow that somehow right? Zero turn lawnmower, that breaks and I gotta take it somewhere? Need a truck, 3). I live in an area where when it snows it takes 2 days for the roads to be plowed. Truck gives me the ability to LITERALLY go “WEEEE SNOWWW” on top of being able to pull my neighbors out from being stuck. 4). If someone crashes into me because I’m in a truck I have a better chance of NOT dying. And I’m gonna be honest EVERY time I drive I see at least half the people on the road texting…so yeah I want a big car.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
Unless you are in a major metropolitan area your options are limited. For fun I just tried to book one via hertz in the kansas city area for a random day this month and am coming up dry. wanted to see the cost
Uhaul and budget where it is by mile run up big bills real fast. Menards, lowes and home depot is by time. They are not designed for you to rent them for more than a few hours.
Locations may not be open on weekends. You now have to rent an extra day or two. You may have to find an alternate location. They are often not available during busy times.
You are likely to damage a truck doing truck things. You need to get their insurance which adds to the cost.
My favorite and one I have experienced a half dozen times renting trailers, box trucks, van, and a truck. A confirmed rental does not mean you will actually get a rental thet day. scrambling to find a substitute the day of is no fun and happens way too often.
Renting trucks was so bad back when i would only need it a handful of times a year i bought a beater. People saying you should just rent are the ones who haven't done it.
Rentals are great when you need something you need once like a box truck for moving. Even then you really need a backup plan for when uhaul screws you over. After thet they get so expensive it is easier snd cheaper to just have a truck as a daily.
kc_kr@reddit
That’s too bad, because Kansas City has pretty good charging infrastructure.
FesteringNeonDistrac@reddit
I've done it, but if i pick up anywhere other than the airport it's significantly more expensive, and the airport is a 30 - 40 minute drive each way.
Plus I like my car, just did 1200 miles in it Memorial day weekend.
404nd2@reddit
I think the logistics of renting becomes a turn-off as you have to fetch and return it yourself. It's nice if you have someone to help you but if you're solo there are extra steps.
Probably area/region dependent too. When I lived in Georgia we had multiple Uhaul stores with a fleet of rentals at the ready. Now, I live in New Hampshire and my local storage facility keeps five uhaul vehicles. I gotta catch one during the week when needed, on weekends they're gone. My new rural life has me thinking about buying a small pickup :)
sm41@reddit
How much would it cost to use a rental truck like a truck and leave scratches or dents in the bed? Even Home Depot or U-Haul can be fussy about cosmetic damage to work truck rentals.
RyanB_@reddit
Couldn’t really tell you tbh, haven’t had it happen and can’t seem to find any reliable info for my area.
But really, for those kinds of one-off tasks, I’d think your chances are pretty low, especially if you’re careful and making sure to take pictures of the vehicle. Loading up some boxes for a move or supplies for a project shouldn’t hurt a work truck any.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
Ever try to rent a car in a busy tourist area during the summer? Prices are sky high, you won’t get what you want (mini vans here have wait lists for rental), and you’ll be lucky if you get something decent. That’s why
RyanB_@reddit
Can’t say I have.
It’s still not really a thing people consider in my very non-touristy city, though.
Nickump215@reddit
Where do you rent your cars from? On average what would you say it costs you for a weekend or a trip?
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
Usually Enterprise, usually $20-$30 a day. Which is wild, considering the gas savings from driving their more fuel efficient cars (compared to my fleet) basically pays for the rental fee.
linyeraworking@reddit
You're newest vehicle is from 1999. You're renting for to avoid risk. lol
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
Also have a 2012 Mazda 3 hatch, just ran out of flair space lol.
My Ranger is a pretty capable long drive rig too, just did 10 hours each way no prob when I had a rare short notice trip and couldn't get a rental. Pretty low miles, 130k. Owned it nearly 20 years, largely a weekend beater but it's pretty well sorted. Gas mileage sucks though.
linyeraworking@reddit
That Mazda would be nice for trips too. The thing I hate about rentals is that they don't have windows tint.
freejb81@reddit
I have a family of 5. We rent a van for any long trip. We have a van, but we don't want the miles on it.
TheAlphaCarb0n@reddit
Why pay for a car and insurance on a car to not use it...
freejb81@reddit
We do use it. Everyday. But we take 400+ mile trips and would prefer not to put that many miles on a car if we dont have to. Plus, I get a massive discount on rentals through my work.
Epsioln_Rho_Rho@reddit
I bought my hybrid for road trips, and finally one I am comfortable in. For years I had a hard time fining a car I was 100% comfortable in. The car rentals by me have base models, and the seats are horrible for any length of time. I also know what my car can and can not do in a blink of an eye.
bexamous@reddit
Renting minivans is awesome. We took road trip in a Dodge Caravan. One or two nights we just put stow-and-go seats down made improvised bed and slept in car.
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
I also love renting cars. Sometimes you'll get an unexpected gem. One time I was given a Fusion Sport (AWD Ecoboost v6) as an upgrade from my choice of "cheapest shitbox available". I was in such a rush to leave that I didn't even realize it was the top trim... until I reached an on-ramp and floored it. Then it was like, "why the actual fuck is this family sedan so fas- wait is this the turbo one?"
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
Nothing solves EV road trip anxiety like actually doing one. I don't even have one of the longer range EVs and it's still trivially easy. You stop and charge when someone needs to use the bathroom. The last trip I did, from the Bay to LA only required one stop, but we did three short stops to coincide with bathroom breaks.
guy_incognito784@reddit
I’ve done a few in my EV. Admittedly most trips we use my ICE X3 but I’ve done a few in my low range EV.
YMMV, no pun intended, concerning your EV road trip experience. Depends on where you’re driving and the speed and number of fast chargers and where they’re located.
Teutonic-Tonic@reddit
Most American households own 2+ cars... and you don't need both of your family vehicles to be able to road trip. EV is great when complimented with a Gas car.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
EVs still aren't great in most countries when you're completely reliant on public charging infrastructure.
If you look at the posts from people advocating for EVs, the most cited advantages noted are the "full tank each morning", "cheap charging via solar" and "never having to visit a service station to refuel".
They're all ultimately implicitly making the assumption of being able to charge at home, with the solar one making an additional assumption of having a single family home.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
The context here is the US and new cars though, and statistics show that it's a pretty easy assumption to make that someone will be charging at home.
In a lot of other countries, public charging is much more prevalent.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Eh…. I’ve done a bunch of road trips in an EV. The only annoying thing is the extra time consideration.
guy_incognito784@reddit
You've had better luck than me then.
It's always annoying along I-95 when I have to wait for a charger because there's a long line, some ass just leaving it fully charged at 100% and is no where to be seen, much lower than expected juice from the charger, etc.
It's less of a pain when I'm traveling through more remote areas aside from the additional time which you mentioned.
blainestang@reddit
Chargers being busy is definitely highly variable depending on location, networks, etc.
I've done 12-15 trips of \~1000+ miles in several different EVs, now, and across \~12 states, and the grand total amount of time I've spent waiting for a charger to become available is *maybe* 30 minutes.
I've never waited for a Tesla Supercharger, ever. I've waited for 0-10 minutes for other chargers a few times. That's it.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Once you get your Supercharger adapter, all that goes out the window.
adfthgchjg@reddit
True. And then there are the people who never intended to charge, but park their EV in the charging space because… it’s a really nice parking space, right in front of the drugstore. We see this in the Seattle area.
ThetaGrim@reddit
Los Angeles to anywhere north during a holiday weekend will mean hours at a charging station unless you plan very well ahead.
Gatortribe@reddit
I drove I-95 end to end just fine, however I did so at night. I choose night trips in gas cars for less traffic, fully open charging was just a nice benefit.
guy_incognito784@reddit
Yeah night driving would definitely save a lot of time.
hydrochloriic@reddit
ABRP’s latest update was shockingly effective for my last trip, it found me high speed rural chargers that had almost zero use. Granted that was MI>SW NY, so areas with relatively good infrastructure.
Still even when I’ve done trips out west, I’ve never had a charging stop that never had an opening.
guy_incognito784@reddit
I'm very envious.
I live in the mid atlantic region and aside from directly off the I-95 corridor I don't have much on road trips along the east coast where I opt for my EV.
I also spend time in KY, I can drive there from the DC area with no drama as it's all pretty remote going through the Shenandoah Valley and the Appalachian mountains.
The_Mcgriddler@reddit
So the only annoying thing is the most annoying part? The fact that it increases your travel time?
hydrochloriic@reddit
I mean. Most people cite difficulty of finding chargers, or long lines/broken chargers, not the time spent charging. And it’s not THAT terrible. I did a 7:30 trip recently, stopped twice, took me 8:20. Given I had to pee at those point anyway it’s maybe 20 minutes longer than I would have stopped regardless?
Scoutron@reddit
Unless you’re going to somewhere incredibly remote (Alaskan highway) they’re really not much different on road trips
WorkerAmbitious2072@reddit
That’s why authoritarian states like California are going to jsut flat mandate EV
Nobody ever truly wanted them and everyone knew it. If we wanted them nobody would need to mandate them
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Relax, bro. Everyone who cries about California doesn’t live here or uses some nonsense argument. You know California has more tuner cars and shops than any other state? You know we have more Ferraris per capita than any other country, including Italy?
There is a huge car culture here paired with massive income disparity, and the government realized really quickly that an EV mandate wouldn’t work out. They can try but until the technology is ready for mass adoption, it’s just a pipe dream.
WorkerAmbitious2072@reddit
I know CA has a larger population than other states so by default has more (blank) than most other states due to sheer size
I also know it’s going to be illegal to buy an ICE in CA
guy_incognito784@reddit
Given your prior comment fear mongering about evil California "mandates", it's of no surprise that you don't know what "per capita" means.
WorkerAmbitious2072@reddit
You never said ca has more tuner shops per capita
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Didn’t the senate just vote to override California’s EV mandate? Also, you know 11 other states opted to follow California’s EV mandate? Further, the mandate will absolutely be pushed when 2035 arrives and the infrastructure doesn’t exist, the cost outweighs the benefit, and people who don’t own homes—which is a majority of Californians—cannot afford the financial hurdle that would come with owning an EV.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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mondaymoderate@reddit
Good thing that law was struck down by the federal government.
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guy_incognito784@reddit
I mean it's pretty obvious that this guy has never actually been to California before nor has ever actually been in an EV before.
enp2s0@reddit
Between me, my brothers, and my parents we have an EV (Chevy Bolt EUV), a truck (F150 Raptor), a sports car (MB SLK), a sedan (volvo s60 t6), and an SUV (Chevy Suburban), so I have quite the range of driving experiences. The EV is awesome, always has a full tank every morning, no oil changes, damn near free to charge since we have solar, etc. People definitely want them, it's just that those people have already bought EVs in the past few years and aren't still looking. If you own a home and commute less than 150mi/day it's a no-brainer.
If you can't charge at home, it's not worth it. If you have to pay inflated rates for charging (most public chargers are charging way more per kWh than your home electric utility does), it's not worth it. The issue is that the people that EVs are convenient for have already bought them, so obviously sales are going to slow down until they become more convenient for other groups (renters, people with long commutes, people who tow shit and don't/can't buy a gas/diesel truck as a second vehicle, etc).
obviouslybait@reddit
Plug in hybrid all day
AplabTheSamurai@reddit
Agrees in 330e
sailor_of_the_seas@reddit
> So why would people buy an expensive EV that will end up costing them more in energy than a gas car would anyway?
The entire idea is global warming is going to kill us all. Transportation is a large source of emissions. Widespread EV would go a long ways towards reducing that and then we can focus on improving the grid and transitioning it to nuclear/wind/solar/geo/hydro. Incentives (should) be in place to make it so that EV's are the logical choice over exclusively gas powered vehicles. It's due to long term desire to not destroy humanity.
However, a lot of people are now convinced global warming is a hoax so this is what we get. They're stupid and wrong.
Itsallaboutsatellies@reddit
FREE fast charging at most NON-Tesla dealerships and many other places authorized by the manufacturer. Do you get FREE gas?
If you worked for me you could pull in and charge up for free in front of our office if you wanted to work in office. Level 3 charger.
The utility company here offers a rebate up to $4250 for the purchase and installation of a level 2 charging station for your home and you don't have to be the owner of the house. that type of charging station usually costs between $1,200 and $2,200 for labor and materials, plus $400-$800 for the charging station itself.
So please, stop making excuses. A typical person charges their car once a week and at a level 3 charger like the one at the dealership or many places in your city it takes less than an hour.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Where the fuck do you live? Sure lots of dealers here in MI have DCFC but they are exorbitantly priced- I’ve seen Ford dealers as high as $0.98/kWh though most are around $0.55-0.65. AFAIK, the US OEMs don’t offer free charging with any network- Ford has the L2 install coverage, Stellantis seems to be offering $600 worth via Free2Move or an L2, and GM has… nothing, as far as I can tell. Rivian and Tesla do have their networks of course, so props to them, though unfortunately Rivian are expensive and Teslas free charging only applies to the first owner, so those cheap used ones aren’t as attractive (plus there’s the whole buying a Tesla right now thing). Foreign OEMs do offer some free DCFC, but it varies a lot from a few hundred kWh to a few years of unlimited, though the latter is rare. Many seem to be doing $250 credit on ChargePoint.
I’m very glad your place of business has a charger(s?)! But many don’t right now. Where I work we do have some, but they are for test vehicles only. There’s a few L2 chargers at a different location, but they aren’t free. FWIW I don’t think an office L2 necessarily should be either, though the prices on most are insane, but gas isn’t free and I have no problem paying 10-15¢/kWh at work as though I were fueling at a station.
I would be very curious how the hell the power company is going to install a charger on a house you don’t own? That sounds like a recipe for a huge legal battle, unless they’re only installing it on their own equipment (IE at the meter). Additionally that rebate is far from universal. My power company’s rebate has comically low income limits: for example, for a single person household, you can’t have a yearly income over $31,300. For a 4-person it’s $64,300. A four person house with that yearly income is not going to be buying any EV or affording an L2 install to get the rebate.
These aren’t excuses, they’re legit realities for a lot of people. Honestly I want more EVs, but there seems to be only two positions allowed right now: “buy an EV, any complaints or reasons why you don’t want to are BS based on my own experience” or “EVs are the devil and they should be outlawed.” I just want the reality that a LOT of people already don’t want to buy expensive cars, EVs skew expensive, there are many living situations in which they will NOT be cheaper, and so they just don’t make sense over a cheap gas car yet for a lot of people to be acknowledged and presented properly. There are a lot of people that could switch to an EV! There’s also a lot that probably shouldn’t! That’s fine and people need to accept that individuals will make that call based on their own situation.
Itsallaboutsatellies@reddit
Michigan has some of the most repressive laws in the nation. I am sitting at a diner having a piece of pie next to our Ford dealer as I type while charging my Lightning and its not costing me a dime.
Everything you said is a bullshit excuse. STFU and go back to the 1950s.
hydrochloriic@reddit
????
Regressive how? There’s no laws forcing OEMs to give you free charging anywhere that I’m aware of. And you know your Lightning was designed here in MI? So too was the Mach E.
motorolacarphone@reddit
EV mandates are home ownership mandates without the supporting policies
markeydarkey2@reddit
2/3 of people in the US own their homes and charging infrastructure for apartments is not impossible. Like there are ways to recitfy these issues, they're not impossible to figure out. It's frustrating to see this defeatist mindset whenever apartment charging is brought up because it's a solvable problem, it just takes effort.
Access to a 120V outlet near a parking spot is enough for a LOT of folks. One of my friends lives in an apartment with a dedicated parking spot behind it with an exterior 120V outlet, that could quite easily charge an EV (at about 1kW, adding 10kW over 10 hours aka +30-40mi of range for most EVs). The most important infrastructure for EV charging is access to a 120V outlet.
I would not recommend an EV yet if you don't have access to L1/L2 charging via home or work but that's how it is now. Infrastructure will be better in 10 years, the tech will be better, etc.
Worth repeating too that the EV sales requirements only impact new car sales, you will not be barred from buying used ICE cars!
Throwaway921845@reddit
No one wants to spend an hour charging their car in a parking lot. People need to either be able to charge at home, at work, or the technology needs to evolve to charge a car in five minutes or less.
Moridin2002@reddit
Eh. At least in CA, there are a crap ton of supporting policies and regulations to get charging into MUDs and public parking spaces.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
As someone that lived in a large newly built MUD that had EV charging slots, its not a panacea. Most EVs take around 6-8 hours to full charge on a level 2 charger. Our building had around 1000 units and around 1.25 parking spaces per unit. So, in theory you could have 1250 cars in that building. If they are all EVs you would need 10,000 hours of charging to full charge them all. Most people aren't draining the battery every day or even every few days so assume each car needs a full charge once a week. So you need around 1400 hours of charging capacity per day of the week. Each charger, in our scenario, can service 3 cars per 24 hour day with perfect utilization (a wildly unsound assumption as I mention below). You need to charge 179 cars per day in our scenario so you'd need 60 chargers for that building.
That's the perfect scenario where everyone moves their car instantly once its charged and someone is instantly waiting to use that charger. In reality, people use charging spaces like their personal space and leave their car there overnight even if it finished charging hours ago. You can tow people or fine them, but those things still take time and result in down time for the charger.
There's also the electrical load to think about. Many level 2 chargers are installed on 50 amp circuits, which means 40 amp peak charging (continuous load can only be 80% of rated circuit max). Assuming every charger is running on peak current (which won't happen when nearing full or if the car battery is very hot/cold, but for simplicity let's assume it is) you're talking about a continuous 600 kW load. That is not impossible for a large commercial building to accommodate, but its not trivial and not cheap.
I really think home charging is going to become an anachronism for EVs. In another 10-20 years we'll look at it like we look at having to crank start your car. Batteries will be able to DC charge so quickly that people won't bother charging at home. They'll do it in 5 minutes at a charging station, just like we get gas at gas stations now.
snoo-boop@reddit
My apartment complex is 1/10 the size of yours, and has way more chargers (per unit). Never had a problem charging, and they have installed more over time as the number of EVs has risen.
MoirasPurpleOrb@reddit
But if the charging isn’t free or subsidized the point still remains.
El_mochilero@reddit
That’s the goal. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the country hasn’t caught up.
I live in the fairly progressive city of Denver. The newer luxury-style apartments have charging abilities. Older apartments, condos, and townhomes here do not, and I’m not really seeing the mid-market multi-family properties moving in that direction.
RedlyrsRevenge@reddit
I hope it gets better here in CA.
A town of 75,000 people has 4 Electrify America DCFC stations, 16 Tesla Superchargers and then 6 scattered Chargepoint level 2 chargers (cheap though). The Tesla chargers are almost always full and charging a non Tesla is a pain due to the cable design. Bring on more gen 4 chargers please!
I took a road trip and the shopping center I stop in had a half dozen free level 2 chargers along with some DCFC stations.
Moridin2002@reddit
Do you mind sharing the town. There may be more planned, but I would need to know where to try and chase it down.
cloud_cutout@reddit
This is a dumb take. Charging infrastructure exists and has been growing. We could have continued building up and expanding it but we decided to elect an admin hostile to EV’s.
SummertimeThrowaway2@reddit
“Growing” doesn’t cut it. the amount of fast EV chargers is nowhere near comparable to the amount of gas stations there are.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
They don't need to be, since these are the least common method to refill.
SummertimeThrowaway2@reddit
Yea because people don’t want EVs 😂
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
They don't need to be, since these are the least common method to refill.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
not to mention even the smalled 2 pump gas station c an supply enough fuel for dozens of cars per hour. hows that compare to 1 charger that takes 20+ minutes to charge one car? thats granted it doesnt cut its charge rate if 2 cars are connected to the same circuit on 2 chargers...
hewkii2@reddit
The fast charging tends to be price comparable with gasoline, especially if your gas is only ~$3/gallon
SithSidious@reddit
Also filling up at a gas station is in no way comparable to fast charging. First of all, it’s much quicker. Second of all, very easy to find, basically on any street corner. Third of all, never have to wait in line to fill up a tank. Finally, you show up at a gas station the pumps almost always work and aren’t broken, unlike at EV chargers
triggered__Lefty@reddit
And even then, most young people don't want a home, they want an apartment or condo in a city center.
DrZedex@reddit
They say that right up until they have a child.
spooksmagee@reddit
Having children? In this economy?
JournalistExpress292@reddit
Everyone says they don’t want a child in their early 20s because of reasons but then in 5-6 years suddenly they have a baby. What happens to all that talk, you have money of a sudden?? I thought the economy was doing bad??
DrZedex@reddit
Not intentionally, no, but they doesn't stop them
Wonkybonky@reddit
Nah, they want a home.
dm117@reddit
Nah, young people in the 18-25 can barely afford a car let alone a home
iDEN1ED@reddit
There’s a difference between wanting something and being able to afford it.
737northfield@reddit
> me, a young person, who just sold his house and signed a lease for a 1br apt downtown to be closer to friends.
Wonkybonky@reddit
Nah, they want a home.
ctrlaltcreate@reddit
A mandate makes it appealing/cost effective to increase infrastructure. Without a mandate those that would front the capital to create the infrastructure are gambling.
RelicReddit@reddit
Where are these EV “mandates” that I keep hearing from the deeply uniformed? Can you provide a source?
ShadyDrunks@reddit
Cali had a mandate but now it’s on pause. 2035 100% of cars need to be zero emissions
RelicReddit@reddit
Thinking these performative, green-new-future legislative pushes are “mandates” is laughably naive. It doesn’t take an ounce of brainpower to conclude that this simply isn’t going to happen.
jse000@reddit
It's the same sort of mandate I give my team at work to try to ensure we only miss budgetary goals by 10% instead of 30%.
These people are still waiting for Obama to come take their guns.
motorolacarphone@reddit
Ah yes, deeply uninformed that the EU exists.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_6462
They have since modified this to soften it, but it does indeed mandate market share targets for EVs and plug in hybrids. There is more to the world than the US.
RelicReddit@reddit
Read the post title again, buddy: “AMERICANS Are Growing Less…”
Drop the euro holier-than-thou attitude. It’s a terrible look
the_jungle_awaits@reddit
Having an EV while living in an apartment sucks.
Until charging one is as fast as filling up with gas, or they make EVs with user replaceable batteries, it’s just not practical for most people.
reacTy@reddit
It is not a problem in Denmark, Netherlands, Norway and so on. Employers are required by law to install changing spots. So you don't need charger at home, you charge at work.
the_jungle_awaits@reddit
How many charging stations do they install? Because 5-10 charging stations per building are not going to cut it if an entire apartment complex is filled with EVs.
reacTy@reddit
Average kilometers driven per week is 230km, meaning most people need to charge once per week, or once every two weeks, depends on a car. To change entire fleet of cars to electric will take decades. So let's say you only need 15 chargers in parking area with 70 spots if the entire fleet of cars is electric (that will take decades), Norway with >90% EV sales still has only 29% EV rate in the entire fleet. Oslo is city with highest EV share in the world with 38% being electric, most people live in appartments. You charge at work, on the street, when shopping, when eating out (yes even restaurants have chargers, more customers - win/win).
hydrochloriic@reddit
Yep, it’s one of the biggest issues to EV adoption. Plus while the very slow SOC loss isn’t too bad, compared to a gas car that simply sits and loses nearly no fuel capacity, EVs sitting for long periods can cause other issues.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
They have cars that can charge from 20-80 in 3-5 minutes now …..
RobertM525@reddit
But I have to imagine that annihilates the health of the battery. The faster you charge, the more strain it puts on a lithium-ion battery. Good for an emergency, but nothing I'd want to rely upon.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
No as long as the temperature is managed, it’s fine. They pre condition the battery before you get to the charger, and after you have charged.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Not in the US they don’t. You’re referring to BYD’s Megawatt charging, correct? This doesn’t exist in the US, nor does BYD as a brand yet. Additionally the fastest chargers I know of are 500kW, which are RARE, and most are 300kW or less.
Right now in the US, the fastest charging cars tend to take around 25 minutes to go 20-80%.
OMGpawned@reddit
Doesn’t the Hyundai and Kia eGMP cars charge like 10-80% in like 18mins?
hydrochloriic@reddit
Hmm, that does look like a new speed! Interestingly KIA says the 10-80% in 18 minutes is on a 350kW EVSE, but I can’t verify if that’s at 800V? Like would a 350kW EVSE that can only deliver 400V not be able to hit that rate because of the voltage?
OMGpawned@reddit
Honestly, I don’t know, but many reviewers say that they achieved those ratings at a normal electrify America 350 kW chargers. So I don’t know if that’s nominal 400 or 800 since I never use those chargers.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
For sure, but it’s ready.
hydrochloriic@reddit
In one very small part of one country, and only compatible with one specific brand. It’s ready, but it’s still in the early adopter phase.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
So that would make me interested though, as some people have very strong opinions of the charging factor.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Sure. Keep an eye out for it to leave China in 2028. Maybe. And the first one near you to be hundreds of miles away.
Remember how long it took the Supercharger network to build out.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
Yep, but there is interest in faster charging right? And it’s available, just that certain states don’t care.
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motorboat_mcgee@reddit
There's only so many people with the ability to charge at home, and house buying is becoming harder and harder. Role out of charging infrastructure has been painfully slow, especially with the politicization of ICE vs Electric. Whole thing is frustrating here.
bexamous@reddit
In California if you have a home there is barely any cost savings getting an EV, if you're paying PG&E... in fact good chance it is more expensive. Eg Model3 at PG&E peak pricing of $0.62/kwh (and if you have a home adding a car on top to regular use is likely to be into Tier2 pricing) getting 4.0-3.5miles/kwh is $0.16-$0.18/mile. And then a Toyota Corolla getting 35mpg at $5.25/gallon is $0.15/mile. Where is the savings?
You need to have a home AND have solar panels... but if you look at houses that have solar majority of them were installed prior to EVs really getting common. You'll be in Tier2 pricing less but its still not cheap. And if you're installing solar now with NEM3.0 pricing it barely makes sense.
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
Your numbers feel deliberately misleading while being technically true. The .62 per kwh rate is PG&E's potentially highest summer peak pricing from 4-9pm. People charge their cars overnight when PG&E's time of use plans are 15-20 cents per kwh.
bexamous@reddit
I shouldn't have used 64 but 20 is not possible. 44-50 at night cause it's so easy to get over baseline. Ev rate plans are a little less at night but most with insufficient amount of solar, which is most who got solar and then got ev after, the ev rate plans usually are not cheaper because with nem2 your credits are worth more on non ev plan... I mean you can compare but for most ev plan is not cheaper. If you don't have solar ev rate plans may be cheaper though. Where is 15 to 20: https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
Oh my lord! I realize I was thinking of the rates that my parents pay in Sacramento and I forgot they have SMUD rather that PG&E. My overnight rate with Alameda Power is 15 cents, so that plus the low price I paid for a used low milage EV makes electric very viable. I saw one of those awful commercials that PG&E keep putting out to rehabilitate their image, and realized it was actually shot in Alameda, which doesn't use them!
Shmokesshweed@reddit
What the fuck.
Dr_WLIN@reddit
my rate here in the Midwest is barely 0.13/kwh
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
That's for 4-9pm during the summer if you're on the highest use tariff. People charge their cars overnight when it's 15-20 cents per kwh. I'm glad I live in a city in California with its own electric utility and cheaper rates.
Maleficent-Bug8102@reddit
Our state has decided that the best way to “save the planet” is to price everyone out of using electricity.
It gets even funnier if you remember the proposed income based electricity rates that had the maximum rate top out at a little over 100k household
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
Yep. I had my ac set to 80 last year in July to cool my 1900sq ft house and it was 400 a month. If I had an EV I woulda been in the 600 a month range.
I got a new AC this year which is more efficient but holy hell electricity costs are fukked in this state
drsilentfart@reddit
SCE and PG@E screw you and me
WallyWendels@reddit
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Wild California...
jxoxhxn@reddit
Luckily i live in Anaheim. They have there own utility so there rates are cheaper than pge and Edison. Think in averaging 21 c kw with my wife’s EV.
Jedi_Gill@reddit
You are only discussing the costs of electricity compared to gas powered cars. What you fail to realize as do most non EV owners is that the cost of maintenance is ridiculously low in comparison.
There is no more oil, oil filter, spark plugs, air filters, transmission fluid to replace. These are the monthly maintenance costs. Let's not forget you won't have to worry about the muffler having a hole, exhaust, transmission blowing, alternator going out, rear diff issues or tons of other items that could go bad.
On an EV, you pretty much just rotate the tires, even changing the brakes is less frequent due to the recycling of momentum by slowing the car to turn it into an generator and put power back to the battery.
Most people that I speak to about EV's never consider these cost savings and are just stuck on the gas prices which it is cheaper to travel especially if you have a solar panel and battery packs that pull energy at night which is cheaper and put that power in your vehicle.
OMGpawned@reddit
Yeah, I’ve been trying to get my head around that too. In my parts is SoCal Edison although it’s not $.62 a kilowatt hour for me. It is $.44 still far more expensive than say driving a hybrid Corolla or something like that. The only thing that’s kind of nice for at least up until September this year is the carpool access and the fact you don’t really have to maintain a whole lot in a EV so that still saves you some money. I get free charging at work so that’s a no-brainer for me to drive a EV.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Where I live, my energy rate is at most, $0.23/kWh (and off peak is like 14¢). Charging a 100kWh BEV would be $23, and that should be good for around 250 miles. That’s 9.2¢/mile. My 500 Abarth has a 12 gallon tank, costs around $35 to fill, and will do 300ish miles: 11.7¢/mile. And the BEVs are much larger and faster.
DCFC around me is $0.50-0.75/kWh, which makes it a TERRIBLE choice- $65 to go 250 miles is 26¢/mile. That’s like HD pickup money.
If Cali biases towards the latter in home prices… ugh. Why would anyone choose it?
strongmanass@reddit
California is the perfect place for solar + home battery storage + an EV with V2H. It's expensive to set up, but with the insane electricity prices you'd be at positive ROI in just a few years.
RoboModeTrip@reddit
Yikes. I thought it was bad when AEP released a 36% increase. We're going to just under $0.10/kwh.
bogwee@reddit
One more reason not to live on either coast. Costs of living are out of control. Here in the midwest (Cincinnati) electric is costs about 12c per kwh.
goRockets@reddit
Even in low to moderate electricity cost areas like Texas, the cost of EV per mile is about the same compared to an efficient hybrid for a small non-performance crossover once your factor in the extra registration fees if the new $250 registration bill passes.
My ID4 gets about 3.7mi/kwh. At the price of 15 cents per kwh, that's 4.0 cents per mile in electricity. Additional registration fee per ear is $450 ($250 federal, $200 state) if the new bill passes. So for someone that drives 12k miles, that's 7.75 cents per mile.
For an efficient hybrid like a Rav4 hybrid that can get 40mpg and gas price of $2.7/gallon, that's 6.75 cents per mile for gas. Add in the proposed $100/year registration fee and $75 per year in oil changes brings the total to 8.2 cents per mile. So EV saves you $54 per year in fuel if you charge 100% at home.
So the cost of fuel is essentially a wash. What's more impactful will be cost of insurance, purchase price, and depreciation.
I like my ID4 and will not go back to ICE because I enjoy the comfort and not having go the gas station, but it's no longer the slam dunk on lower fuel costs like it was.
__-__-_-__@reddit
There is typically zero cost savings for fueling an EV in california compared to a hybrid.
the_lamou@reddit
Good news, then, because young adult new car ownership is also VERY low without any expectation of increasing. Just as it's always been, in both cases. So none of that actually changes anything all that much.
But even aside from that little nonsequitur, even with charging rates what they are, it's still often cheaper to charge at public stations than to get gas... or at least not any more expensive. Then you add in the savings on maintenance and wear and tear items like brakes and oil. Then you factor in that almost all new EVs and many used EVs come with free charging — I've gotten ~575 kWh for free just in the last five months or so, or roughly $250 worth. Then you factor in that even many apartments are now built with EV charging.
Long story short, you're just plain wrong on basically everything.
hydrochloriic@reddit
I have quite literally done this math on a 10 hour road trip. Using public chargers was about $50-80 more than an equivalent gas vehicle. Now obviously if I only use DCFC on road trips then that’s fine. However for someone using exclusively DCFC then yes, in my area where most fast charging is $0.45 to $0.75 per kWh, most EVs would actually be more expensive than their equivalent ICE counterparts.
the_lamou@reddit
I quite literally do this math every day on account of having EVs for years now, which has included doing multiple 10 hour road trips. A very poor-efficient EV that manages only 2.5 miles per kWh will break even with an average efficiency gas car at about $0.50/kWh on strictly energy costs, but will still come out ahead on brakes and other annual maintenance. And you just completely glossed over the free charging most EVs get.
hydrochloriic@reddit
I glossed over the free charging because it’s not a great argument. Either you trade in every year or two (whenever the free charging ends) which would be way more expensive in lease fees, or you let it lapse at which point it’s no longer pertinent, and (hopefully) the maintenance costs you’re using as such a big part of the argument won’t matter until after the free charging period ends. So sure, there’s one year where it’s better, which is great, but unless you plan the majority of your road trips in that year, the same issue will still exist afterwards. And of course there’s the consideration that EVs may become more heavily taxed soon, which also starts eating into their advantage.
the_lamou@reddit
That's how most people get EVs these days, so it's still quite pertinent. The technology is moving so fast that cars just a couple of years old are pretty outdated.
But even if you let it lapse, you still get 2+ years of free power. That's absolutely bonkers huge, and massively reduces your overall cost of ownership. Like so many people making anti-EV arguments based on feels, you're hyperfocusing on one tiny context-less component because that's the only way your argument works.
Sorry, are you saying you don't do any oil changes for the first two plus years of ownership?
Except that you carry forward those savings over your entire ownership period. Even if it's just one year (which... where did that come from? It's almost always two or more), and you keep your car for ten years, that's 1/10th less you're paying per year on energy costs. You've reduced your total cost of ownership by (at least) 10%.
While ignoring that gas cars are also taxed?
hydrochloriic@reddit
There’s a lot of OEMs offering a lot of charging deals. Some are kWh based, some are years (Hyundai/Kia), some are just $X covered (Dodge/Jeep). There’s some that don’t offer any sort of fast charging discount but do offer L2 installs- Ford for example.
Of course you have to do oil changes in the first two years. But EVs burn through tires faster, so especially if you’re taking advantage of your free charging in trips you’ll likely need to replace those around the two year mark, which negates the cost of the oil changes (assuming the average 17k miles a year), as tires cost a lot more than oil changes. Though I admit this one does depend a lot on miles driven, driving style, and tire choice, so it could swing either favor.
Also I’m not anti-EV. I want to buy one, but there aren’t any available right now that would satisfy my price point and range. I would personally be guaranteed to lose money on switching cars right now, as my pretty efficient 500 Abarth is fully paid off. That said I’m driving a Charger Daytona EV for work, and it’s likely the one I will buy when I do get a new car.
All I want is for people to not be misled by the “it’s way cheaper!” argument without being sure that’s actually true for them. There’s a lot of factors to consider, and while your points are correct, they are not universal and the argument “they’re just better” could cause someone to end up with a car that doesn’t suit their needs or living situation .
losteye_enthusiast@reddit
And why would I buy a pure EV when PHEVs exist? The price difference isn’t that great and one is far more useful than the other.
Seriously I love my X5 PHEV. Don’t remember to charge or want to go on a trip? Don’t have to worry about finding a charging station, gas is everywhere. If we do find one, then sweet we get even better fuel economy on said trip.
blainestang@reddit
Because a PHEV isn't far more useful for my use case.
I've driven across 12 states and \~15,000 miles of road trips in an EV, and haven't had to go out of my way for a charger since \~2015.
And because I have a 100kWh battery, it powered the basics of my home for 5 days after a hurricane.
And it has a massive frunk that I use constantly.
I've owned two PHEVs, and I think they're a great option for some use cases, but there are also many use cases where the PHEV is just added complexity and loss of features (battery capacity, frunk, etc.) for little benefit to that use case.
dedzip@reddit
The problem isn’t going out of the way it’s waiting for it to charge
blainestang@reddit
He said the problem is "worrying about finding a charging station."
So I responded about that complaint, and it's not a serious worry for MOST trips, anymore. You just put your destination into navigation or an EV trip planning app, and it tells you exactly where to stop right along your route.
Time added to trips for charging just isn't that big anymore, either, with many current EVs.
A recent test was done with gas vs a bunch of EVs on a 3000 mile trip, and an EV that you can lease for the price of a Civic took 44 hours to do the trip when gas took 40 hours, on an extreme trip nearly no one ever does. For a normal trip of \~500 miles, the added time would be like 15-20 minutes, if that. Barely even worth mentioning.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Especially if you’ve only got one car, that’s probably a great choice. Personally I wouldn’t want to deal with both propulsion systems in one chassis (in the sense I have to still maintain an ICE engine), but I’m also lucky enough to have a house I can charge at.
dedzip@reddit
Yeah if you keep cars like long long term your only realistic option is ICE. Hybrid systems are so complex you can’t work on them yourself and they cost a shit ton to get fixed. And batteries degrade over time, so after 10-15 years that’s a garunteed $12,000 for a model S replacement battery for example.
hydrochloriic@reddit
There not much evidence of good BEVs having battery longevity issues. Certainly there are models with battery issues (Leafs spring to mind) but there are Teslas out there with over 10 years and minimal battery capacity loss. Pretty sure there’s one that’s over a million miles on the original battery, but that was a while ago I saw that.
Now there are issues with charging standards and such, but adapters exist so it’s not inherently a problem.
dedzip@reddit
Batteries degrade naturally. Most of them are not getting a million miles
BMWbill@reddit
Exactly. Anyone who owns a home and drives a gas car for a daily driver is throwing money out the window. Especially now that there are many EVs that are cheaper than the average American new car
hydrochloriic@reddit
Well… I dunno about that. Depends on a lot of factors. Maybe going from one financing to another would hurt more than the fuel savings would. Or maybe they’d be going from a fully paid off vehicle to a lease that would end up mean paying more than the fuel savings. Or maybe the electricity cost in their area is exceptionally high.
BMWbill@reddit
Good points except for the last one. I should have phrased my comment to say anyone who chooses to buy another ICE car when shopping for a new car for their daily driver is throwing away money if they own their own home. EV cars like mine fill from 0-100% for $7 here in New York. My normal charge from around 30-80% costs me around $3. Even if some states are double my electricity price, they are a I’ll going to get 300 miles of range for the cost of a Couple of gallons of gas. Add in the savings from no other service like constant oil changes and you’re saving many thousands is dollars each year over an ICE car. I can say for sure that I’ll never be buying a gas car again, and that goes for most EV buyers. This is why EVs are still by far the fastest growing segment of cars even in the USA.
hydrochloriic@reddit
While it would be cheaper for me to drive an EV (I do own my house, or rather I pay the bank to live in it…) I would lose far more money in the immediate getting one vs continuing to drive my existing cars. Plus- there are almost no EVs out there that compare to my Abarth. The Mini SE and 500E have less than half the range for twice the price of the vehicle. I could drive the Abarth for a LONG time before the cost equation made sense. Sure a used Leaf would be cheaper, but most of the cheap ones are on sub-100 mile range now.
BMWbill@reddit
Yes it makes sense to keep any decent car that’s paid off. The point is when buying a new car it doesn’t make any sense to buy a gas car anymore. If you’re interested in used cars you could buy a used 2022 model 3 long range for $20,000 that has a range over 300 miles. (New it had 353 EPA). It won’t be as cute as your Abarth but the 0-60 in 4 seconds makes it way more fun to drive
hydrochloriic@reddit
I am currently driving a 2026 Dodge Charger Daytona, I am well aware how fun EVs are. My dad’s had a Model S for 6 or 7 years now. I’ve driven 3’s, S’s, Blazer EVs, and more.
But here’s the thing- my Abarth was $13500 with 45000 miles. It’s got zero rust, which is saying something for a Michigan owned car, it gets over 30MPG, and it always brings a smile to my face. Most Teslas have held no interest to me: their interiors are boring at best (I have a personal beef with floating screens), and I despise most of their HMI (the shifter, button turn signals, etc) so I would likely be looking at a Model S. And that was before Elon began publicly describing my very existence as part of “the woke mind virus.” At this point I won’t buy a Tesla until Musk is out- though I admit if I already owned one, I would not sell it just because of him…. Probably. Those Polestar deals would tempt me.
I have been considering said Daytona Charger, but with the current economic climate I’m just not doing any large spending I don’t have to, and it will be far more reasonable to keep a small econobox running.
BMWbill@reddit
I’m sure the abarth brings a smile to your face. I wouldn’t call that a daily driver for a main family car though. Especially with the average 2.2 children. Me, I have just 2 kids, not 2.2, but even with 3, my Model 3 is plenty comfortable. It also is comprised of mostly aluminum and Tesla cars tend not to have rust issues like your Abarth. Yes it has a simple interior but that works fine for most people. Me, I come from most BMW M3’s in my past. Old BMWs always put simplicity above flare and flashiness. (Not anymore which is why I bought a Tesla) and yes my 2022 has traditional stalks for shifting and signaling honestly it’s by far the best car I’ve ever owned out of around 25 cars. (I’m 55 and a lifelong car fanatic) but o can’t argue with your point about Elon Musk. I’m very far on the left myself and I personally will never buy a new Tesla again unless they kick him out. But it’s still the best car I’ve ever owned. What other car in the history of the automobile could go my 52,000 miles without ever visiting a dealer once for service? No oil, no tranny fluid, you don’t even change brake pads doe the life of the car cuz you never use them. It’s faster than any of the M3’s I’ve ever had and more smooth and dead quiet and has the most comfortable seats of any car I’ve ever owned and the stereo is amazing and it is pretty much free to drive. Tolls are my main cost when I travel. My problem is that there is not a single EV alternative yet that matches the practicality and cost and efficiency of a Tesla. At least not in North America. I do a lot of 10 hour road trips to Canada and back and only the Tesla Supercharger network will do. I have my hopes set on the upcoming Rivian L2 and the EV Scout pickup. But those are years away. I’ll wait.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Ah you’ve stumbled upon my dirty secret, it’s only me and my cats! 😆 I don’t typically need to consider more than 2 people in a car (though I can say from experience 3 full size humans fit shockingly well in an Abarth), but I have always loved super sedans ever since I drove an XJR. I used to have an S4!
I put a lot more emphasis on form than most people. Not over function, but if I can’t stand being in a specific car, that will never change during my ownership. The singular central screen on 3’s causes me an admittedly irrational amount of anger. The non-moving vent air direction is cool, that I grant.
And I’ve taken a number of road trips in these Charger Daytona’s- these days the non-Tesla EV charging infrastructure seems pretty usable. I’ve charged at Rivian DCFCs, even! If the 4-door had launched before I bought the Abarth I would surely have one. I also do like the Polestar options except that of course the only proper sedan they made has been discontinued in the US… I do not and have never wanted an SUV or pickup, but that’s what the vast majority of brands make, for good reason.
BMWbill@reddit
Yeah well I have two cats too. And we all have our irrational stubborn ideals about how things should be. You hate center screens. Don’t ever drive a mini cooper or a BMW Z8! Both have center speedometers and no gauges in front of the driver. Me, I drove a Model s for 2 days last week and I didn’t like the dash screen at all. Mainly because the modern Tesla UI system simply works best with one screen and not two. On the model S the huge center screen is basically one giant useless Google Map.
I have my own things I hate. Smelling smog from idling cars is one. When you drive an EV and see some guy waiting for his wife in the store and he is idling his car just to run the AC, it just boggle my mind how insanely crazy that is! Burning fossil fuel in a huge engine that is exploding pockets of gas 20 times a second just to power a generator that creates electricity to power a blower fan and a belt to power an inefficient compressor just makes no sense. My Tesla can run the AC for days and days without using much power at all. Silently. But the center screen took me and my wife all of about 2 minutes to get completely used to. Doesn’t phase me one bit. But I know everyone is different. I can say I have met hundreds of Tesla owners and not one of them has an issue with the center screen. Directional buttons on the steering wheel? That’s an issue. As is shifting to drive or reverse on a a screen. That’s terrible. (But I would never not buy a car just for those reasons. How a car drives and how reliable it is are 1000 times more important) I’d never get a car that doesn’t use the super charger network though. Where I live in NY, the alternative chargers are just unusable. My sister has a Mach E and any time she goes on a trip she has tons of issues. Her cat even routes her to chargers that are not even fast DC chargers! I don’t trust the software on EV cars made by legacy auto. A friend has a new Polestar SUV and the sort ware is just junk. It doesn’t plan the route before you leave your driveway telling you each charger stop you will go to and how long you will charge before you leave. I don’t even think it preconditions the battery
hydrochloriic@reddit
The onboard navigation systems are all junk. Tesla’s only selling point is the automatic charger routing- which most EVs on the market can do with something like ABRP. Honestly, Tesla’s actual navigation logic is… dopey. It often routes you in odd ways and has you take a longer route around a corner. And it’s not like idling an EV significantly harms the energy efficiency so there’s no reason for it to do so. But then again, who do you know that uses the inbuilt nav anyway? I don’t know anyone who doesn’t use Google/Apple Maps, except Tesla owners.
I don’t mind most combustion car’s exhaust, assuming they’re working properly (or working hard). Diesel scent does bug me, and I also fully acknowledge that smog is real and being stuck in a city area with lots of idling ICE vehicles does suck. But I also have an endurance racing hobby, so I’m hardly normal when it comes to that opinion. I don’t usually make any statements either way on this one because my personal carbon footprint is relatively large.
I have driven Mini’s. My mom has a Countryman S. Very fun to drive with the 6-speed! And while it has a central speedometer, the tach and smaller digital speedometer are on the steering column. As far as I’m aware, that’s how all (BMW) Minis are laid out.
BMWbill@reddit
Ah, I guess there is a digital Speedo now on the steering column of the Mini Cooper. I’m just picturing the classic big round Speedo on the middle. Anyway cars like the mini and even a Tesla have strange things often put in weird places just to give them some extra character. I get it. I got my Tesla before Elon went nuts and I got it for its reliability and efficiency and its insane performance. It does all that stuff insanely well. No car is perfect. But, it definitely has the best software os any car I have owned. And yes it’s so good I don’t miss having CarPlay. The nav is using Google data so it’s orettt similar for traffic, and they are adding in new features all the time. The autopilot is great for long trips too. Like you, I have other vehicles. When I want to shift and smell gas and hear noise, I have two motorcycles.
lostfate2005@reddit
You should see what I pay for electricity in the Bay Area.
I own my own home and have solar. Still not worth it
BMWbill@reddit
Google says it’s still have the price of a gas car on the Bay Area, and it also says you have night time half rate electric plans available from PG&E
losteye_enthusiast@reddit
That’s a solid point, the maintenance budget for it runs higher than I’d like and realistically when something finally does go out, it ain’t going to be cheap or non-complex haha.
But in the meantime, it’s our lil’ star of family hauling. We’re adding solar later this year specifically for charging it and a tiny workshop we tinker around in.
markeydarkey2@reddit
The driving experience in EV-mode tends to be much better for BEVs. Whether that matters is subjective, but the >400hp EV-mode in an iX makes it more appealing to me personally than the 194hp EV-mode power in an X5 PHEV.
reacTy@reddit
Depends on what PHEV it is, in China most PHEVs have only 1 or 2 gears for the highway and at low speeds the engine just generates electricity. The gearbox is simple as it gets. No clutch, one gear, the generator can match the speed of engine. Then you have EREVs which are also selling like hotcakes in China. There the engine only generates electricity, no gearbox, drives like an EV when the engine is on. Chinese PHEVs have way higher EV range due to less comprexity (no expensive 8-speed gearbox with axial flux electric motor). Just simple gearbox and radial motor (cheaper).
losteye_enthusiast@reddit
I could see that, but mine is strictly used as a family hauler for around town. I’ve never looked at the power numbers until you listed that here and have never been short of power the few times I’ve needed it.
Definitely subjective, but absolutely makes sense.
stinger_02in@reddit
Interior space and not smelling gas and brake dust
Vwburg@reddit
Why have the complexity of both drivetrains? One of the massive EV advantages is the mechanical simplicity.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Because EVs work a lot better than PHEVs, which have to be plugged in frequently if you're going to use them properly, EV mode on them is at significantly reduced power, you don't gain any packaging efficiency and charging is slow.
They'd make sense if there were some options that undercut an EV, but not really otherwise.
cache_me_0utside@reddit
Because you care about emissions
hydrochloriic@reddit
They might anyway, but morals have balances. If it’s going to cost someone a lot more money in a time where wages are massively down compared to cost of living… why would they do it? Like sure it would be great if they could, but there’s a balance.
cache_me_0utside@reddit
All decision aren't purely financial. It might not cost that much more or maybe its' just a larger up front payment but over enough time you recoup some or all of that through electricity being cheaper. Also they're just straight up nicer IMO b/c instant torque and much quieter, and less maintenance.
hydrochloriic@reddit
You’re right all decisions aren’t purely financial, that was my point. The decision is based on many factors, one of which might be emissions. But most people do not weight their personal vehicles’ emissions too highly when buying such an expensive thing as a car. They want reliability, space, energy economy, comfort, etc. in their own order of importance. Sadly local emissions don’t typically come in very early on the list.
Throw in auto enthusiasts and it gets even more complicated, or else I wouldn’t own a 500 Abarth.
cache_me_0utside@reddit
I actually think loads of ppl buy an EV because they want to be "green", and do care about the emissions.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Why do people keep perpetuating this myth?
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/05/how-gen-z-outpaces-past-generations-in-homeownership-rate.html
greenw40@reddit
It's typically a combination of redditors doomscrolling and getting all their info from the internet, and many of them living in cities where home ownership is unrealistic.
DoublePostedBroski@reddit
You didn’t watch the video in the article apparently.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Peak Reddit; trying to baselessly condescend.
Gen Z outpace past gens in home ownership. The things they’re doing to afford homes are no different than that of gens x or y.
SpermicidalManiac666@reddit
Not to mention the abysmal resale value and potentially insane repair costs
cohrt@reddit
and time. most people will need to drive somewhere else to charge as well.
Ran4@reddit
Because ev:s are nicer to drive? It's hard to go back to non ev once you've had an EV.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Eh… I generally agree from a day to day experience, but I also adore driving my hobby cars. I think for most people that treat cars more like appliances, that’s not really a good enough argument.
Ran4@reddit
For people using them as appliances, EVs is the only reasonable option. The main thing EVs don't have is the feel of combustion cars when it comes to sound or driving a manual.
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
I'm currently waiting for a home charger, and even charging at electrify america I'm still paying about 65% of what I was paying for gas on a monthly basis. Also, young people buy used cars, and used EVs are an awesome value right now.
RobertM525@reddit
If this, as of 2019, 90 to 93% of all new car buyers were also homeowners. So I don't think that's a significant factor.
NorCalAthlete@reddit
I’ll extrapolate that a step further, in California’s case:
Push to build more high density housing, while simultaneously removing the requirements for minimum number of parking spaces - of which, there were already only a fraction reserved for EV charging anyway. For example a 350 unit complex might only have 4 chargers.
Removing / downgrading incentives for solar and battery, and then forcing you to pay back / allowing PGE gauging on pricing, making the cost savings questionable for the average person.
Larcya@reddit
When I lived in an apartment complex during Covid here in Minneapolis one of the benifits they loved to advertise was that they had EV chargers!(Outside of course, aint no way they were building them in the heated underground parking garage)
Only they had 2 EV charging stations. For a 340 unit building. This building was almost exclusively 2 and 3 bedroom units. Meaning they probably had close to 700 people living at the apartment building.
Now imagine that trying to play musical chairs with the 2 EV chargers. And no before you ask those 2 charging stations were just 2 chargers. Not 2 chargers in each station.
This was a brand new apartment building back in 2020 too.
Gatortribe@reddit
I don't own a home, but I charge at work just fine all the same for a much, much lower cost than public chargers. My apartment has charging as well, but between RAV4 Primes that live on them and Teslas that still think they're dedicated parking spots... Yeah.
I'd support incentives given to workplaces installing them- seems like a no brainer to drive adoption, if that was something the current admin actually wanted.
avoidhugeships@reddit
I would not want to own a car that became unusable if I lost my job.
TyraCross@reddit
I live in Canada and this is the case. I live a fairly new condo, but there arent any charging stations. To implement one it will cost north of 10k…. I was looking into buying a tesla and eventually just settled on a fuel car.
PreacherSquat@reddit
according to my local fb tesla group, plenty of people are buying used model 3s and solely relying on supercharging
hydrochloriic@reddit
That I could believe- the supercharger network is a gem of EV ownership. The way it’s integrated into their UI makes that sort of use pretty easy. Sadly most other brands don’t have that sort of functionality.
RenataKaizen@reddit
I wish municipal governments or power companies would add it to surface lots or power poles. If I could charge at 1.25x electrical rates on these I’d do it for sheer convenience.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
We have several thousand level 2 chargers streetside in Quebec, you don't even need surface lots. It's more like double residential rates, but $0.15 CAD is still cheap.
RenataKaizen@reddit
It would be a combination to make sure plowing and trash pickups occur unfettered. And Circuit Electrique / Hydro Quebec are a great model that more should be following.
Cheap 50KW charging at St. Hubert’s was amazing.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Yeah, their level 3 options are really useful, especially if you travel in rural Quebec (there are random 100 or 50kW) stalls literally in the middle of the woods, but I think the level 2 network is where they really win.
More than half the EV owners I know rely entirely on street charging.
RenataKaizen@reddit
Speaking as a tourist, knowing that even L3 options that aren’t super fast are .37 CAD (.27 USD) and mesh well with dinner and the like are great when your hotel/street doesn’t have charging.
PlasticMessage3093@reddit
In America at least I don't think this is a bottleneck. Low home ownership rates is more likely to translate to living with your parents in a single family home than renting an apartment bc there just aren't that many available apartments, and the available apartments tend to be very expensive brand new luxury downtown apartments or apartments in highly undesirable areas. The inland empire for example has extremely high car ownership per house hold rates (about 40% of households have 3+ cars) bc of the very high % of adults living with their parents and with their own car (around 50%.)
hydrochloriic@reddit
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen numbers on this, but BEVs tend to be marketed towards younger people. If they’re living at home and the parents want nothing to do with an EV (as many older people don’t), what are the chances that they would be willing to install the requisite 50A wiring that could even include a new panel? I honestly have no idea.
In general younger people are buying less expensive cars if they’re even buying cars at all. Granted the scenario where a young adult is living at their parents’ home they would likely have a car, so… hard to say.
PlasticMessage3093@reddit
Speaking from personal experience, EVs are actually really popular in these areas. I see way more here than inside the proper city
Which I suppose I need to clarify, the trend isn't for poor people in general to go ev, but a lot of the recent increase in people living with their parents are people making good money fresh out of college, but are constrained by the high cost of housing (largely driven by sheer unavailability of apartments thanks to zoning) and very long and expensive commutes. The inland empire is a particularly extreme example of this- 15% of the region has 90+min commutes one way (roughly 30% commute to the adjacent but seperate la Metro area), fresh grads make around 90k a year, col outside housing and commuting isn't too bad. Which makes EVs really compelling in these kinda regions, even with a luxury car, they can afford to save up while having a lot of disposable income, but getting their own cheap crappy place and a cheap econobox will have them living paycheck to paycheck, not to mention EVs saving on their commute costs (the very long commutes and high salaries mean that low cost per mile is more important than low upfront cost that EVs pose.)
And anecdotally this isn't an unusual situation outside inland empire and the fact that this is a metro level problem rather than being isolated to many specific neighborhoods. I mean I have a lot of new people working under me making really good money prioritizing buying a nice car over a nice place to themselves bc they don't see themselves being able to afford a nice place in the near future anyways, but they can afford a luxury ev no problem.
Now it is true that older people tend to like evs less, but from what I've seen, that hasn't been enough to actually discourage EV adoption in these places
I could also definitely see this being really just a Sunbelt tech worker thing, I can't imagine this being nearly as widespread elsewhere. But considering how much recent growth is in the Sunbelt, I really wouldn't be surprised if the recent trend of young people living with their parents and a lot of the new housing crises being driven by the Sunbelt, especially considering how few apartments get built here
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Young people living at home are not the target demographic for any car, EV or not.
Besides, cities with EV adoption have street charging, unsurprisingly.
WyoGuy2@reddit
The people who are living at home usually aren’t in a place where they can afford an electric car. They’re saving up to move out.
Lots of independent young people have places to park cars but it’s not allowed / practical to install a charger. If you’re parking on the street you can’t just string an extension cord across the sidewalk.
caverunner17@reddit
That's simply false.
The homeownership rate in the United States[1][2] is the percentage of households that are owner-occupied.[3] U.S. homeownership rates vary depending on a household's demographic characteristics, such as ethnicity, race, location, type of household, and type of settlement. At the start of 2025, the seasonally adjusted U.S. homeownership rate was 65.2%, down from 67.1% in 2000.
Homeownership in the United States - Wikipedia
So roughly 2/3 of households own a home.
hydrochloriic@reddit
Apologies, what I meant was that young adult home ownership is low, who are also more likely to buy an EV.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
People who don't own don't buy new cars. That relationship is almost 1:1.
caverunner17@reddit
That is certainly fair. It's an issue with most apartment complexes where there is a trivial amount of EV charging stations (if any at all).
hydrochloriic@reddit
Apartment living with current market EVs is definitely a poor option. In general it seems like wage stagnation is preventing a lot of people from trying EVs due to a lot of these factors.
Imaginary_River_2705@reddit
Good. With OTA update happening all the time , i certainly would not want to drive a remote bomb around every day.
Aksh-Cool-2025@reddit
is there any specific reason. I am planning to buy a new hybrid car.
Splenda@reddit
I'm more and more interested in getting one of the cheap, capable Chinese EVs that we Americans aren't allowed to have.
WizardlyLizardy@reddit
Gas prices went down a full dollar where I live. I wonder why people are less interested in EVs
SharksFan4Lifee@reddit
I have a house where I can charge an EV every night, that's not my barrier.
My barrier is, I don't want an EV until we are at the point that every gas station in the US has EV chargers and as many EV chargers as fuel pumps. (I'd settle for 80-90% of gas stations)
I don't ever want to be stranded anywhere because there's no place to charge my car. I live in a city that is geographically isolated and long road trips scare the bejesus out of me for an EV.
richochet_red@reddit
Considering society is slowly collapsing and infrastructure will eventually begin to crumble I’d rather have a gas vehicle rather than rely on a power grid that is already having problems. And I can’t fix a dead Tesla. There is always a way to repair a car.
MickFleetwood@reddit
Pure electric maybe but I’m very interested in a PHEV as next personal car
smackbymyJohnHolmes@reddit
It's a gamechanger dude. I bought my XC60 T8 almost 4 months ago and I've only filled the tank twice so far. The range is more than enough is my daily commute to/from work.
Never had experience with a PHEV before, but I will probably never go back to a regular ICE for a daily driver.
twentiesforever@reddit
PHEV is the gateway drug to EVs. People get them, find they enjoy not buying gas and gaming their driving to avoid buying gas. Then realize, they could have gone full EV the whole time and do on their next purchase.
savageotter@reddit
Unpopular opinion, but phev has way to much added complexity to be something I would own out of warranty.
7107@reddit
I'm still waiting on news about the RAM charger
mrcompositorman@reddit
Wife and I swapped our Macan S for a plug in hybrid Audi Q5, and I will say that for us anyway it's definitely the best of both worlds. 30 miles of all-electric range means we use zero gas doing any kind of local driving, which is about 90% of our usage. And then the gas engine it there for road trips and longer drives, which is really nice.
Also, while it's not really the case brand new, it seems like PHEVs have depreciated very significantly. Our Q5 was only a couple thousand more than a comparable non-hybrid model.
TowElectric@reddit
The average American spends $58 on gas taxes per year.
Who knew that when a certain political party puts a $250/yr federal and many states put a $200/year "tax" on a type of car, it gets less popular.
Who knew when a political party constantly attacks a type of vehicle and makes hating it part of their political identity, it would get less popular! Shocking!
It's too bad because that's where cars are going basically everywhere else and the US will look like a ridiculous dinosaur in a few decades. This decision may be the thing that finally scuttles the bulk of remaining US auto manufacturers.
challengerrt@reddit
Comparing a battery replacement to an engine replacement isn’t exactly the same thing. You WILL need to replace the batteries in an EV. There are plenty of ICE vehicles that have never needed an engine replacement. Just because the warranty is similar between the two doesn’t mean much. Also, say my truck needs a new engine…. That’s something I can do myself - cost of a factory engine? $5,467.59. Or even better I can fix what’s wrong with the original engine for significantly less. Now exactly something you can do with a battery cell. Also, EVs do also go through electric motors at a seemingly high rate.
I’m not having on EVs. They have their place but the reality is unless you can charge at home in a state that doesn’t have huge electric costs…
TowElectric@reddit
Bullshit. Only 5% of EVs, including those 10+ years old, have ever needed that swap. And a lot of that is due to manufacturer flaws, which are appearing less and less in newer vehicles.
I have two friends with 200k+ miles EVs. I know one guy with a 400k mile EV on one battery.
Mine is only at 140k miles, no intention to swap anything.
I also had to have my last gas car (BMW X3) rebuilt after 95k miles.
Median car life is 200-220k miles. Batteries will outlast that in the majority case with probably half likely to dramatically outlive the cars other parts.
challengerrt@reddit
The fact that you brought up a BMW’s engine replacement need is actually pretty comical as they are well known as one of the least reliable cars out there.
That aside - where do you get your battery replacement statistics? Genuinely curious.
TowElectric@reddit
lol sorry I realized the link didn’t copy or something.
This study says 2.5% of all EV batteries, 70% of which were two big recalls.
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last
Notable that the older cars have a very high rate of replacement. The Leaf and Bolt that were available then, and even the Tesla, had very high replacement rates due to issues with battery construction. However:
TowElectric@reddit
lol sorry I realized the link didn’t copy or something.
This study says 2.5% of all EV batteries, 70% of which were two big recalls.
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/costs-ev-battery-replacement#:~:text=EV%20batteries%20are%20generally%20lasting,of%20EVs%20on%20the%20road.
TowElectric@reddit
Uh here is one study. Note that the replacements are HUGELY impacted by recalls as the graphs will show.
SnikySquirrel@reddit
How is the range and performance at 140k miles? Not attacking you, just curious.
TowElectric@reddit
Range is down 13%. From 300 to about 270. It hasn’t gone down notably in 2-3 years.
Charging speed was upgraded via software update a few years ago and is 30% faster than when it was new.
Still is a 4 second 0-60 with absolutely monster low end torque. I don’t think torque falls off in an EV like it does in a gas car.
Suspension is showing some wear, probably needs a little love, basic wear stuff.
The ventilated seats aren’t quite as drafty as they were when new.
Still tows just fine. I hauled a couple tons (in two trips) of retaining wall blocks in my cargo trailer a few months ago.
Tows my boat just fine too, though with something large like that, range is 40-50% lower. Towing big stuff long distance is not an EV strength.
SnikySquirrel@reddit
Interesting, battery is holding up pretty well
goofyskatelb@reddit
Source on “You WILL need to replace the batteries in an EV.” Because I’m calling bullshit, cars are almost universally designed to last about 150,000 miles. Not the engine, not the transmission, the car. Literally every part. The doors, the buttons, the shifter, springs, bearings, bushings… literally everything. This will come as a massive surprise but it turns out engineers are pretty good at designing things to specification and the average lifespan of a vehicle in the US is 160k miles (source)
ShadyDrunks@reddit
Blaming republicans when democrats are getting caught everyday vandalizing Teslas lmao
The car that doesn’t pay road taxes through gas and causes more wear because it’s heavier needs to pay its taxes.
We’ve gone so far in a political circle democrats are complaining about taxes
bladex1234@reddit
You do realize that not all EVs are Teslas right?
ShadyDrunks@reddit
Great point, totally invalidates democrats committing vandalism to peoples property
bladex1234@reddit
One party does property damage, the other does literal domestic terrorism.
railbeast@reddit
I agree with this part but you have fallen into general redditor mistake territory where you're missing a LOT of nuance.
Why can't the EV road tax be usage based? I drive less than 5k miles a year in my EV, why do I have to pay the same as someone that uses the roads more?
If you open your ears and rub your little pair of neurons together you will realize democrats are actually reasonable humans wanting FAIR taxation. A lot of people assume democrats like ALL taxes when that's a massive mischaracterization.
Unlike rich republicans who just want businesses to do whatever since they can just move to places where pollution isn't a problem and filter their water and send their kids to private schools while your average person's quality of life decreases.
TowElectric@reddit
The weight is a weird red herring.
The median EV is only a few hundred pounds heavier than their gas counterpart. Ballpark 500-600 pounds.
Cars with dual options like the Kia Nero and Hyundai Kona go from about 3100lbs to 3700lbs when moved from ICE to EV.
The Model S is often called a "very heavy" car and cited for EVs being heavy at 4,561 lbs. But the Mercedes S-Class, which is about the same size and footprint is 4,700lbs. The C-Class is 3900lbs, but it's a little smaller.
There's a few exceptions like the F150 lightning, which added over 1,200 pounds, but I'd argue that's at least part because of weird engineering choices Ford made when making the swap.
ShadyDrunks@reddit
Trucks do pay more tax when they pay registration because it’s weight based and they pay more tax through higher gas/diesel usage
TowElectric@reddit
Sure, but the average F250 is still only paying $150 in federal gas tax (based on 13k miles per year), while said Nissan Leaf is being charged $250 starting this year.
ShadyDrunks@reddit
Average F350 is diesel that’s 1. Average F350 also does way more miles because they’re work trucks that’s 2.
muftak3@reddit
Saying electric vehicles weigh more is an anti-EV talking point. We should be charging a tax on weight and mileage driven. A Cybertruck and an F-250 can weigh about the same. An Escalade weighs more than a Model X. A C-class and a Model 3 weigh about 3,800lbs each, depending on configuration. Pushing for EVs to pay more because it's heavier when pickups make up 17% of vehicles on the road, and all EVs make up about 1.5% of cars on the road is dumb logic.
ShadyDrunks@reddit
It exists, Diesel gets higher tax, and you pay more tax when you register if you have a higher weight vehicle
cock________________@reddit
weird to see this so highly upvoted in a car forum. the real answer is EVs are fucking boring.
TowElectric@reddit
Because they don't make loud noises?
cock________________@reddit
or vibrate or smell. yes
ukazuyr@reddit
Engine can be replaced in parts unlike battery. And degradation is inevitable, unlike Engine failure.
ubercruise@reddit
Batteries can be replaced in parts/cells if they’re designed that way. And engine degradation isn’t inevitable? Did engines suddenly become immune to entropy?
Walris007@reddit
Not at home they aren't.
TowElectric@reddit
Frankly, a modern electronically controlled engine isn't that servicable either.
The old stereotype of a guy standing half inside the engine bay of their 1976 F150 aren't that common anymore.
My last two cars had to be nearly disassembled to just replace the spark plugs (literally removing belts and radiator lines and things).
Modern minivans often require pulling the alternator and some metal covers, all while having the car lifted overhead. Even then you need special tools to reach them.
Not to mention the Porsche engine that has to be hoisted to get at the spark plugs, or the significant number of engines that require you to basically take it apart to do a 100k mile service on a timing belt or water pump.
You CAN work on batteries, it's just not recommended without some specialty tools.. which I suspect will become more common in the future.
railbeast@reddit
Yep, this is why my ideal 3 car garage is a model 3 performance, a miata, and a toyobaru.
ubercruise@reddit
Being able to replace a battery pack and/or engine at home is probably not a consideration for 99.99% of the population.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
and unlike the ice i don’t have to worry about oil changes and most routine maintenance which is a consideration for most of the population
zealous_ideal666@reddit
There are still oil changes on EVs, theyre just less frequent. Like other routine maintenance. This just provides another point of premature failure because people with think it's not needed.
captaindigbob@reddit
I imagine the same people who think there's no maintenance on an EV are also the same people who decline every service on their ICE car apart from oil changes.
RuinedGrave@reddit
Okay, show me where on the battery the oil pan is?
zealous_ideal666@reddit
Each drive axle has its own oil, similar to gear oil. Generally recommended every 30k, the systems also have their own coolant that has to be changed, Tesla and every other manufacturer of BEVs has these and their own recommended intervals for them, each axle even has its own oil filter.
ubercruise@reddit
The only thing noted on mine is brake fluid flush at 3 years or 30k, but I could likely stretch that living in a dry desert climate. Nothing regarding any other oils, most of the maintenance is AC related or just diagnostic checks, and tires
zealous_ideal666@reddit
I said generally, I'm not sure about the bmws, I do know the Tesla, and Toyota axles are every 30. The BMW should probably be around there too. It's not a lifetime fluid. Just like gear oil is not.
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
Tesla has different service schedules for the early S/X and the 2021 and later models. The early models had drive fluid replacement intervals of 50k miles. Later models dropped that interval and now follow the 3/Y, which has no specified interval for drive unit fluid replacement. You can look at their service manual online and it will just point you to the operators manual.
ubercruise@reddit
For the BMW it’s considered a “lifetime” fluid, which of course doesn’t truly mean forever, but likely 10+ years and >100k miles
zealous_ideal666@reddit
Im well aware. Thats why I'd recommend you change it if you plan to keep it beyond there
ubercruise@reddit
Sure. Just saying in my case it’s not an consistent scheduled maintenance item
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
You’re making up numbers. Most EV motors have no interval set for drive unit lubrication replacement. Most also have no filter. Tesla did add a filter to the motors used in the Model Y and 3 because they anticipate a lifecycle of 1 million miles before the lubricants need to be replaced. Earlier Teslas have a 50 thousand mile replacement interval. My Toyota has no timetable for this. The only replacement item is the battery coolant, which is done at 90k.
zealous_ideal666@reddit
As someone who has access to shop info and actual training material, I'm not making up intervals, however what is advertised to consumers is different because ownership costs are a huge selling point. I promise your toyota has a timetable for the axle oil.
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
More BS.
Here is the maintenance schedule for the BZ4X.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__assets.sia.toyota.com_publications_en_omms-2Ds_T-2DMMS-2D23-5FbZ4X_pdf_T-2DMMS-2D23-5FbZ4X.pdf&d=DwMFAw&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=BaLYNhIDKqb0JsOCR0bF_AciGkT_fKmbFMm_pYfjmLI&m=CVZeJ14kqFj5RCO03s3is-Olsy1-ouo8VhD4m4D-5w9TGiBAba76eSZgZxIqNNzk&s=skGkPQvBfqlRuAMr5aWZaDGNXvUgi5QU-92CvYF36O4&e=2.718
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
I'd love to see the source on that; all EVs I'm aware of don't require a change.
RuinedGrave@reddit
I pulled up a couple EVs on my catalogs at work for shits and giggles. Honestly? It’s closer to a transmission’s maintenance in intervals and servicing than an engine’s. These are GM EVs I looked up, and they have a 45k mile interval, with an internal filter that doesn’t seem to be intended to be replaced under normal circumstances. They even call for ULV ATF rather than a fluid that’s more like an engine’s oil.
Coolant’s a given for any vehicle, ICE, hybrid, or EV.
guy_incognito784@reddit
I take it you mean other lubricants that are not engine oil?
It is likely to be decades before those lubricants need to be changed and will likely out live the life of the car.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
hence my use of “most”
there is obviously some routine maintenance, but nowhere near as much, i’m sure you’ll agree?
njmids@reddit
Replacing an engine is not that hard and can be done with fairly basic tools.
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
Replacing an EV motor is easier and also requires only basic tools.
njmids@reddit
Battery pack not so much though.
RedRexxy@reddit
And if you don't take proper safety precautions it can be a "shocking" experience. Seriously the amount of safety gear and procedures we need to deal with EV battery replacement is crazy.
I especially like the part of our training where if we see a tech get electrocuted doing this, we can't just grab him (electricity is conductive), we need to use a pole to pull them away to a safe distance, which is like 10 feet
TheGirlWhoLived57@reddit
Yeah sure if you’re working in a 97 civic maybe.
njmids@reddit
Modern cars aren’t that much harder. You just have more electrical connectors to unplug.
Brno_Mrmi@reddit
That's exactly why Civics are getting more and more valuable with the years.
ubercruise@reddit
For people who care about cars sure. The vast majority of people aren’t going to have the time, expertise, or space to replace their cars engine safely or properly so it’s moot for the majority of the populace. If you want to wrench on your own car then yeah don’t get an EV
husky1088@reddit
Maybe for those considering a new car but I bet it’s a much bigger consideration (general cost of future repairs) for people buying used vehicles, which is reflected in the incredibly poor resale value of EVs.
deejaymc@reddit
They also don't have a billion parts required to support an ICE engine. Not to mention much less wear and tear.
jse000@reddit
Yeah, it's unfortunate. I'm constantly seeing my neighbors wheel out their cherry picker, pull the engine, strip it down, machine the block/crank, rebuild it, and just be back on their way.
No longer 😭
markeydarkey2@reddit
Tell that to the many businesses that do mobile replacements of toyota prius battery packs.
bikingguy1@reddit
Have you worked on a new car? OEMs are moving to where you need manufacturer software to tell the car that replaced part is ok to be on the car. The right to repair movement is under attack buy all OEMs all over not just electric cars.
I will probably get blasted for this, and Tesla has a ton of problems but at least Tesla gives instructions on how to fix things and you can rent the software to do module resets or whatever by the day/month for a reasonable price
NimbleCentipod@reddit
Batteries aren't replaceable if doing so costs more than the car is worth.
Ran4@reddit
Replacing a few cells tends to be much cheaper than replacing an engine.
How much is replacing the engine of a ten year old BMW? 10k euro?
ubercruise@reddit
Sure, no different than an ICE engine from that economic standpoint.
NimbleCentipod@reddit
Except EVs are some the fastest depreciating cars (unlike trucks)
ubercruise@reddit
Don’t buy new
NimbleCentipod@reddit
If a car is depreciating like a rock, that means used car buyers don't want them
ubercruise@reddit
Correct, that is indeed how depreciation works
NimbleCentipod@reddit
And what are the depreciation rates on affordable EVs?
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Not high enough.
ubercruise@reddit
On affordable EVs? Not too bad. It’s the expensive/luxury ones that get hit the hardest, but that’s true of most expensive/luxury cars in general anyway. It also needs to be understood that those cars can’t be depreciated against their MSRP when the sale price was essentially automatically reduced by $7500 off the bat. If you bought a $40k EV and tried to immediately sell it before setting foot in it, nobody is going to offer a dime over $32500 because that’s what you could get a new one for
NimbleCentipod@reddit
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/cars-with-the-fastest-depreciation
All but one of these is an EV.
IsometricRain@reddit
I'd put money on a hybrid or ICE Honda or Toyota aging better than an EV anything in 25 years.
Plus, a large percentage of EVs are just too expensive for what they are, a regular non-luxury-car buyer would be better served with a simple hybrid.
ubercruise@reddit
Hybrids get the complications of two sets of powertrains and fuels. A regular ice, maybe, but I’m not sure a hybrid will be better than one or the other
IsometricRain@reddit
You say that, but the Rav4, CRV, Civic, Prius, Accord, and Camry hybrids are proven, people love them, and they're generally better packages than most EVs in their segments. Honda/Toyota have been making hybrids for ages, I'm sure by now most of the failure points have been ironed out.
ubercruise@reddit
I mean I don’t mind hybrids. They’re clearly popular. I just mean having two entire propulsion systems, even well built, means more potential failure points. Of course, there’s redundancy so if your electric motor craps out or something the car will still work.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Potentially. Just as an example, if the electric motor craps out on a Maverick/Escape...you have no reverse. 😳
ubercruise@reddit
Good point, I just made an assumption. In that case I’d stand by my original remark if the redundancy aspect isn’t actually a thing. Could see it being that way for safety/compatibility reasons (ie the engine isn’t meant to function without the electric components or something)
natesully33@reddit
Yup, Ford batteries have replaceable modules, contactors, etc. - Weber Auto on Youtube has a video about that showing an actual teardown. GM did the same in the bolt, and I believe their newer BEVs as well.
I think the newer Tesla 3/Y batteries are some of the few that are glued (well, foamed) together. But they fail so rarely out of warranty that it may or may not be a problem, it's hard to say since all of this is so new.
boondoggie42@reddit
Engine rebuilds these days are economically unfeasible for average daily driver cars.
And battery "pieces" can be replaced, you can open up the giant battery pack and replace the offending cell. Sure, the manufacturers do not support it, but they wouldn't replace just the spun bearing in your motor either.
njmids@reddit
An OEM assembled short block for a 2024 Camry is like $2200. It’s not economically unfeasible to replace a modern engine. You could do it for under $5k.
Ran4@reddit
But you need the hybrid components too if you're going to compare it like that...
njmids@reddit
Not all 2024 Camrys are hybrids.
ducationalfall@reddit
Where can you buy new engine?
njmids@reddit
From Toyota.
https://toyota.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/toyota-short-block-11400f0150?c=Zz1lbmdpbmUmcz1lbmdpbmUmbD05Jm49QXNzZW1ibGllcyBQYWdlJmE9dG95b3RhJm89Y2FtcnkmeT0yMDIwJnQ9c2UmZT0yLTVsLWw0LWdhcw%3D%3D
ducationalfall@reddit
Thanks.
ukazuyr@reddit
By "engine" i meant actual peripherals in the engine bay. The actual engines last way longer than batteries. My engine has 250k km and will outlast me holding this car by a large margin. There is no degradation in everyday usage, despite the car probably not making original HP anymore.
ubercruise@reddit
The fact that the engine isn’t making original HP is a very clear sign of degradation. The point being, an ICE engine can last a long time WITH proper maintenance. 10 years of replacing fluids and parts will add up over time. Whereas a BEV might need one big repair in 10 years, but shouldn’t require much powertrain maintenance annually up to that point. Sort of pick your poison
Owe-No@reddit
His point with that statement is that a few less HP has no discernable effect on everyday useability, whereas losing range on an EV does.
ubercruise@reddit
Losing range on an EV, for most people, is not going to have an impact on everyday usability unless you’re using 80%+ of the range every day, which few do. It’s more of an annoyance if you need to take it on a longer trip, which to me is not every day usability (if you’re constantly taking long road trips every day I’d just stay ICE). It’s usually a degradation of 10-18% after 10 years or so. An annoyance and a consideration for sure, but not a showstopper in most instances
ukazuyr@reddit
Yeah, it makes like 8hp less in top range of rpm. After 13 years and quarter million miles. We will see how current batteries last after this much
ubercruise@reddit
There’s already data out there that some have lasted that long. Of course, with some degradation.
ukazuyr@reddit
I know there is and I also know that selling such used ev is a huge problem. Which means that EVs while costing a bit less to start than ICE are less valuable due to resale value. Which is only going to get worse the more of them there are and new tech comes. After 5 years X5 probably retains more value than IX. The question is whether lower upkeep of IX is going to be enough to offset that difference
ubercruise@reddit
Over 5 years I believe it was $7.5k ish in favor of the iX in my scenario, after 10 years it comes more to about $20k. This would be for a regular X5, for a comparable X5 in performance the gap is like $15k in 5 years. I have reasonably expensive gas and cheap electricity which helps
ukazuyr@reddit
Yeah, it makes like 8hp less in top range of rpm. After 13 years and quarter million miles. We will see how current batteries last after this much
Ran4@reddit
You don't generally replace engines.. at least not for newer vehicles.
If your engine fails in your ten your old fiesta, it's toast.
ukazuyr@reddit
Eastern europe mechanics tend to disagree with this logic
antryoo@reddit
Degradation is a big one. Lotta people saying it’s normal and ok to lose like 7-10% of your range after a year. If that happened on any ice vehicle it would mean a big issue
My model y’s battery was replaced march 2024. It’s already degraded 9%. The vast majority of my charging is done at home using a level 2 charger
My car is supposed to have 326 miles of range. At 100% it will show 296. In the real world it will barely get 240-250 miles and that’s assuming I’m not using the AC or heater.
It still works as a commuter car, and I have home charging plus multiple vehicles so I can deal with it for the cheap operational cost compared to gas on my commute. A lot of people aren’t in my situation where they can charge their ev every night at home so I can see why a lot of people are shy to them
If I had to rely on public charging, I would have gotten rid of the car after one month.
german-car-guy@reddit
public charging is the biggest issue, bc like me who lives in NYC, and most of building apartments dont even have a parking spot not even saying to have chargers. you have to drive somewhere wait for several hours to charge bc of uber drivers taking every spot in line possible.
Ran4@reddit
You don't even need a car...
german-car-guy@reddit
what if you need for work? not just commute?
antryoo@reddit
The only way an ev would work for me if I lived in an apartment would if I had a 100% WFH job where I didn’t have a commute.
Even if the apartment had a garage with power to at least plug in a level 1 charger it would take like 20 hours to recharge what my daily commute consumes.
adrr@reddit
Tesla? We have shitty EVs in the US. LFP batteries used in other countries don’t degrade and you can charge them to 100%. Now you charge them to 80% in 5 minutes. Next year solid state batteries will start being in EVs which can are well over 1 million before they lose 20% capacity. Car won’t last as long as the battery.
antryoo@reddit
You really should only believe the hype on Chinese evs if you actually get them here and try them yourself. I did that, it was surprising how bad the real world range was.
Their range rating system is far more generous than the epa range estimates so just by coming to the USA and being epa tested their rated range will drop between 22% and 35%.
Solid state batteries remain to be seen on when they will be implemented at scale and how well they work out for range. I doubt it’s just one year away.
adrr@reddit
I believe the hype because our government won’t let them or their batteries into the US. Would be nice if they just let the consumers decide.
antryoo@reddit
I don’t believe the hype because at my work a company hired us to do long term testing on a Chinese ev the brought in as a temporary import. They were planning on importing the cars for sale at a base price point of $35k
natesully33@reddit
I had a Y for 4+ years and the built-in health check test gave me 92% health towards the end of my ownership. Something seems wrong, did they give you a used battery? Are you letting it sit at 100% or something like that?
I could do ~240 real-world miles with the heat on in mine, since I had a road trip leg where I would do ~210 miles or so with a 90% charge regularly, arriving at 10%, in the winter. That was an alternate route, the furthest I ever had to go between charges maximum was 150 miles, so I always had enough range on trips. Basically I never had any issue road tripping it, over my two day trip it was about the same as a gas car, I'd just arrive a little later on day 2.
antryoo@reddit
I charge up to 80% for regular commuting. My car never sits at 100%. I use ~25% every day on my commute in fair weather. In summer when I have to use the AC a lot it’s 30+% that I use every day I commute. Summer is when I get the worst range.
Within a month of getting replaced my battery was at 98%. Now at 14.5 months after driving 26k miles it’s at 91%.
Vast majority of my driving is with power set to chill mode and using FSD to take me everywhere. My commute home typically uses 100wh/mile more thanks to the last third having an 800-900ft climb in elevation
If you look around you’ll see a disproportionate amount of 2021 model y dual motors that needed a new battery around the 30-40k miles mark. Not sure what it was they did wrong, but it’s happened enough for people in Tesla groups to see a pattern.
natesully33@reddit
Interesting! Sounds like you know what's up really.
I had a '21 dual motor long range Y, I think, though it was late production. I think it was at 44k when I sold it for... reasons obvious to anyone on Reddit. For whatever reason my battery held up really well, maybe it was due to being a later one? My commute was 10% round trip but not every day and I left it sitting around 50% most of the time, so it could be my use patterns too. Though I would do weekend trips using most of the battery so who knows.
ubercruise@reddit
That’s not normal for L2 charging. Shouldn’t really even be the case for L3 after that short of a time. I do think Tesla severely misrepresented their ranges (it may have been rectified in 2025+, I can’t remember) in the past which doesn’t help.
antryoo@reddit
I assure it the battery degradation is what a lot of Tesla owners will tell you is normal.
As for falling short of rated range, you only get rated range if you drive in fair weather without using heater or AC, and if you are on flat ground driving at an average speed of below 50mph. I live where there are hills and the flow of traffic on highways is regularly over 70mph. On top of that the sun is strong here and cars with glass roofs are greenhouses so use of AC is frequent even when the weather is nice outside.
Other manufacturers have more realistic ratings but it still boils down to the epa test trace for determining range on an ev is not realistic for all driving situations.
ubercruise@reddit
For cold weather yes. Elevation and wind resistance will affect an ICE car similarly though. Guess it’s a good thing I live in a desert and drive mostly flat roads, I get at least the stated range if not more
antryoo@reddit
The lowest range I get in my car is in the middle of summer thanks to AC usage in a car that’s basically a greenhouse thanks to the windows and glass roof. When it’s hot out AC will drastically reduce real world range. For example heading out to Vegas in summer time in the morning before it gets hot, I can make it there with one stop to charge. Driving back in the afternoon I need to stop three times to charge.
It doesn’t get cold enough here for me to have a significant drop in range thanks to heater use. There are times in the winter where the interior car temps are over 100f while it’s 50f outside thanks to the greenhouse effect
ubercruise@reddit
The heater plus cold temps on the battery are much worse than the heat, but yes AC does use energy too. I think heater range loss is in the 20-40% range while AC is more like 5-15%, depending on car. In the peak of summer I lose 6% compared to winter when I use neither heat nor AC.
The high temps here in the desert mean preconditioning is a must, and though my car has a glass roof, it has an IR reflective coating which means the heat gain isn’t as bad as in most cars. I hope that kind of thing makes its way into more cars over time.
guy_incognito784@reddit
Sounds like a problem with Tesla giving BS range estimates. I've had my car for over two years, still at the worst conditions I'll get the BMW estimated range of 220 miles. I typically get around 250+ miles on a single full charge and that hasn't changed.
jse000@reddit
Engines all last infinity miles?
ukazuyr@reddit
Of course not - but a lot of engines last 20h years without major problems. This will not be the case for a battery
jse000@reddit
Source?
ukazuyr@reddit
Go to used car sites and check how many are there. Maybe you guys in usa are more "delusional" about this, but average age of cars in many countries of Europe is closer to 15 than 10.
jse000@reddit
Sorry, how does that help me validate what a battery service life is or isn't?
ukazuyr@reddit
Then specify what you ask "source" for when someone describes two things in one post.
jse000@reddit
Cool, have a source on battery service life?
OMGpawned@reddit
Not trying to be funny, but you can ask Nissan leaf owners lol of course that isn’t the case for every EV, but they seem to have the worst lifespan of a modern lithium based battery of any EV. Frankly, even the oldest mass market electric vehicle is the Nissan leaf and oldest ones are not even 20 years old yet but yet pretty much all of them have had the battery replaced at some point from major degradation. They’re not good examples I know but mass market EV with large enough sample size haven’t really been around long enough to prove anything solid. Among the oldest ones on the road really are about 14-15 years old.
jse000@reddit
To be fair, Nissan's combustion engines probably have even less of a viable service life.
OMGpawned@reddit
And their CVT transmissions lol
jse000@reddit
Especially those! I got curious and started looking for reports of battery degradation from owners of early Model S cars. Anecdotally, 10-16% after 10+ years and 100k+ miles seems to be most of what of I'm reading. One claim of only a 6% loss that seems suspect.
I'd assume newer batteries would perform better in that regard.
OMGpawned@reddit
Yeah, I don’t have a whole lot of data since I’ve only owned two EV so far, a 2017 500e which had 80k miles at the same of sale still had 93% SOH which is actually pretty good for something that was only rated for 84 miles of range. So you figure there’s gonna be a ton of battery cycles to go 80k miles. Those were Samsung SDI 60ah modules. Supposedly rated for 3000+ cycles. My current car is a 2017 Chevy Bolt, the battery was replaced in March 2023 under the recall. I put about 40,000 miles on it and it’s still showing 98% SOH. if it tracks pretty linear I would imagine I can get a good 200,000 miles out of it and still have a very usable range.
jse000@reddit
Ha, we have very similar Bolts. Awesome little commuter appliance that I got for what felt like a near criminal price.
OMGpawned@reddit
That’s why I bought it, after the $4000 used EV tax rebate. It was like less than $10,000 plus the battery was replaced on it three days before I purchased it, It was a no-brainer. It’s my daily commuter and I drive a lot, anywhere from 18 to 20,000 miles a year. I enjoy driving it so much that I actually stopped driving my gas car for probably the past year now. I actually take the Bolt on road trips that has no more than 1 charge stop. One of the biggest perks is free charging at work. And made the most financial sense, spending zero dollars on fuel for the last 2 years the car paid for itself. Do I wish it charged faster? Sure, that would be nice on road trips but unnecessary for daily usage. Oh, by the way, we must have similar tastes I also have a MK7 VW but a Sportwagen.
jse000@reddit
Ours was even cheaper than that, low enough that if I only got a year of use out of it, I'd feel like it was still a good deal lol.
We've only put about 1000 miles on the new battery, no road trips yet, but I'll probably use it to make the San Diego to Phoenix trip I do a couple times a year instead of renting a car. Just need a NACS adapter now.
You need to add a very inconvenient roadster to your stable now 😬
OMGpawned@reddit
I did have a very inconvenient roadster in my stable. I had a 2003 MR2 Spyder. It can’t get any more inconvenience in that car because it didn’t even have a trunk. I mean, the little storage cubby behind my seat was pretty much the only place that was considered a trunk. As far as the NACS adapter I just got one that worked flawlessly at a Tesla supercharger in Yermo. $90 and this thing is made so robust. It’s some sort of durable plastic, but I don’t know why it weighs like 3 pounds 😂 It’s made by a company called EV Supply.
jse000@reddit
The MR-S is awesome and underappreciated. Better value than most Miatas on the used market now.
OMGpawned@reddit
Yeah, I would’ve kept it because it was pretty darn mint and I restored it to like brand new condition. I picked it up for $6500 at a Buick dealer way out in the valley back in 2012. But I got to the point where I ran out of parking spaces at my house and I didn’t wanna leave cars out in the street so I had to get rid of it in 2020 since that was the least driven car it had to go. If I still had it today, it would’ve already gotten the 2ZZ engine swap.
ukazuyr@reddit
Do you? Have a source claiming that they will last x years without worries?
jse000@reddit
Show me where I made a claim that they would last x years without worries.
friday9x@reddit
Modern batteries also have this ability. See Chevy's ultium platform for example.
More anti EV fudd.
german-car-guy@reddit
yes they might but how much will it cost? and most likely the car companies will make people go to authorized repair facilities that will charge double wage.
friday9x@reddit
Can't you say the same thing about traditional ICE repair? EV repair isn't as common in the USA, but in other more progressive countries, 3rd party repair isn't an issue.
Furthermore, the massive battery degradation isn't really a thing anymore as it was in the early models (e.g. Nissan Leaf) and now typically outlast the vehicle itself.
german-car-guy@reddit
no because ICE are known for longer, plus if something goes wrong in ev it'll mostly cost shitton because in USA (not sure about the rest of the world) we dont have experienced indy shops yet to be able to take care of batteries and dealerships will cost a dime to fix
guy_incognito784@reddit
What would go wrong in an EV? There's hardly any moving parts to break.
The battery itself is under warranty for 100,000 miles in most cases.
cpxchewy@reddit
Versus car manufacturer and new cars requiring serial number and coding to accept parts? This is part of the cybersecurity requirements that was mandated in Europe (the real reason why 718 Cayman/Boxsters are ending prod) and will roll out to everyone who sells gas cars in Europe.
That’s also going to require a dealer to register and update too.
Truck_Dog_SmokedMeat@reddit
EVs are a headache for most people (don’t have a house to charge) it’s not a big psyop, please take your meds.
SummertimeThrowaway2@reddit
Dude fr. Plus a lot of them are really techy and futuristic, which lets be real is not what the average consumer wants. And they’re usually considerably more expensive to buy than combustion engine cars.
But no, blame the republicans for everything lmao.
TowElectric@reddit
In many countries, EVs are pushing to over half of cars purchased.
Don't tell me that's because Swedes or Dutch are fantastically wealthy.
Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit
Dunno about Swedes, but Netherlands has hilarious taxes on ICE cars. A new Civic Type R apparently goes for over 90,000 EUR, while the same car is sold in Germany for 58,900 EUR.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
And they tax gas’s heavily. Something like $0.70 per liter or something crazy like that.
I don’t get reddits infatuation with the Netherlands or Europe as a whole. Living in a place like that would suck. Imagine never getting amazing cars like a mustang, corvette, civic type R. Pure hell.
2braincellsarguing@reddit
Sweden quite alot of Mustangs and Corvettes. The Mustang is even sold in Europe right now, so no need to import it anymore.
As for price of gas, yes, they’re high here in Sweden comparatively to the US, but the price of gasoline has been one of the lowest in Europe for a few years now. It’s been steady at about 6$/gallon for 91 octane (Aki) and about the same for diesel.
Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit
You can still buy all of those in some parts of Europe, you know.
blainestang@reddit
“Most people” in the US live in single-family detached homes according to actual data.
copy_run_start@reddit
And all those homes have EV chargers in them? While they may be capable of installing them, it's an added complexity and some people might not want to take on. Making things even a little more difficult or costly to people makes adoption harder.
mynameisjberg@reddit
Can't you just plug it into a normal wall outlet for overnight charging? Sure, fast chargers probably require an install, but regular chargers should just plug in.
RedRexxy@reddit
Lol, have fun charging your car for the next 24-48 hrs if you are using a wall outlet
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
Just throwing this out there, I live very rural and drive 50 miles a day for work. My tesla on an extension cord running 60 feet to my gravel driveway from our deck outlet charges ~55 miles a day. Its always at 80% when I leave my house if I just went to work or work and a grocery store or something, and say I have to run somewhere else like an hour away twice on the same day it just catches back up on my day off. And I'm in the extreme minority for not having a dryer outlet i can plug into which just that makes your charging go from ~5 miles an hour to ~32 Miles per hour.
jse000@reddit
My commute is 36 miles, I get 30 miles on an overnight charge. During the weekend, I make up the deficit and then some. I'm not in a big hurry to install a dedicated charger.
Dunno, I love my Bolt for my use case, I sit in slow moving traffic to and from work.
swimmingtrashpanda@reddit
When the average commute is a little under 15 miles, for most people, charging on a 110 would be fine.
RedRexxy@reddit
For most not all, as an example my daily commute is 30 mi back and forth, not including afterwork activities
TowElectric@reddit
Ok, great, you charge about 4mph and most cars are home for 10-12 hours per day.
So you get 60 miles per day on the average day. Some days you use more, some less, it's probably close.
But I spent a total of $500 to get a faster charger at home and don't have to think about it.
Those with a RV or welder or Dryer outlet in/near the garage can just use that.
bexamous@reddit
I use 120v charger, its not big deal. I park in garage and takes ~5s to plug in and ~3s to unplug. And my car is always fully charged. This is way nicer than going to a gas station once a week.
mynameisjberg@reddit
It doesn't have to fully charge it if you plug it in every time you're at home. Do you use a full tank every time you drive?
copy_run_start@reddit
Looks like with a Tesla standard home outlet charger, you get "up to" 3 miles of range per hour of charging. Overnight I'm getting 20-30 miles of range. As a gas equivalent, I definitely don't only buy one gallon of gas at a time lol
RedRexxy@reddit
I have 12 hours at most of uninterrupted charging at home (usually less with my schedule) which is good for 24 miles, still short of my range requirements. I have worked out the math, which is how I know that wall outlet charging is not realistic for most EV owners unless it is their second car or are using it sparingly
mynameisjberg@reddit
Everyone is different. I'd get 42 miles of charge each night at that rate and I drive less than 25 miles each day. And remember, you'd still have 250-300 miles of battery on reserve from weekends or days off.
RedRexxy@reddit
No, but I have the piece of mind that if I need gas it will take me less than 10 mins to top my tank at any one of numerous gas stations in my city.
If I have less than full charge I now have to worry about range and finding a charge station that is available then waiting at least 15-20 mins for a decent charge.
And if I am making numerous trips a day at different random times how much of a charge could I get after 1-2 hours charge from a wall outlet? No matter how you put it, without a proper fast charger it is significantly more inconvenient charging an EV than without one
ancientemblem@reddit
The big elephant in the room right now is the depreciation of EVs as well. If you buy one and you’re looking to trade in after 5 years you’ll take a pretty bad hit. With it being covered by rebates and incentives it probably wasn’t too bad but with those gone it’s a hard pill to swallow.
mehdotdotdotdot@reddit
My petrol cars have depreciated a lot too. So I guess all cars do
merlot2K1@reddit
That's why you lease ;)
ancientemblem@reddit
Got an insane deal myself for a Kia EV6, but it doesn’t change the fact that without all the incentives I probably wouldn’t have leased it.
SSJHoneyBadger@reddit
Yeah, and it'll likely need a new $15-30k battery after 8-12 years, further killing resale value as they age, and more than making up for the money saved not changing oil or brakes as often
Kaiathebluenose@reddit
“Likely”
SSJHoneyBadger@reddit
You take that gamble then, I don't see you owning an EV. I will buy an EV once we have batteries with at least 2-3x the current life, or a quarter of the replacement price
Kaiathebluenose@reddit
i do own one
SSJHoneyBadger@reddit
I apologize then for assuming. I could be wrong as well, but I did some research a couple of years ago and 8-13 years was the average life of an EV battery if memory serves
ABrokenWolf@reddit
this hasn't been true for all but the earliest EVs on the market, modern EVs come with a 10 year warranty on the battery and are expected to last well beyond that time before every needing replacement.
Kaiathebluenose@reddit
The warranty is 10 years long, I highly doubt that’s correct
bexamous@reddit
You realize there are tons of EVs that are >8 years old.. they certainly are not likely to need a new battery. In fact its pretty rare, batteries age much better than predicted.
TowElectric@reddit
I can only imagine this is a temporary situation.
It also means you can find a really nice 3 year old EV for cheaper than any other type of car in its class.
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
That elephant means you’ll find exceptional deals on mildly used EVs. I bought a 23 BZ4X in 24 with 4k miles for $26k.
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
That elephant means you’ll find exceptional deals on mildly used EVs. I bought a 23 BZ4X in 24 with 4k miles for $26k.
tofubeanz420@reddit
Adding an extra charging outlet is not extra complexity. Chill
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Most homeowners do have electricity, it's a pretty neat luxury.
copy_run_start@reddit
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Charging an electric vehicle is different from charging a phone in that an electric vehicle has much more energy capacity. It makes charging with, say, a regular wall charger more difficult since it takes much longer. Special chargers can be installed that make charging a car more reasonably quick, but many homes lack this.
I hope that helps, unless you were being ignorant on purpose and bringing no meaningful thought into the discussion.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Charging an EV takes a lot more energy than a phone, but you're still getting 40-50 miles easily overnight on a normal 120v plug. For a lot of people, it's not worth bothering to get an EVSE. You tend to get even more on most outdoor outlets, since a lot are actually 20A.
EVSEs are rather cheap, so if you need one and you have a home and a new car, this generally isn't a difficult obstacle to overcome.
copy_run_start@reddit
And yet it is an obstacle. Whether that's extended charge times or the cost and maintenance of a charger, it's an obstacle to adoption that, combined with social, economic, and political issues, are harming EV adoption.
I'm not saying that it's hard to do these things, or that EVs are bad vehicles, or blah blah blah, but unless we're honest with ourselves and capable of thinking through a solution instead of saying "there's this handy thing called electricity that comes out of your wall, you silly billy"
I don't fault you. It can be hard to understand these issues, they're very complex and you don't seem to be following along easily.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Only if you aren't thinking logically, since 90% of homes are already equipped to charge.
I'd say the kind of hand wringing you're doing is what's harming adoption.
copy_run_start@reddit
Sounds like you have no faith in EVs if you think the market offerings are so weak that they can't stand up to the mildest of criticism lol. But it is pretty funny to see
ABrokenWolf@reddit
ahh yes, the impossibly complex task of running an extension cord from a standard plug for L1 charging at home (which fills the need for the vast majority of EV users).
copy_run_start@reddit
It's so odd to me that it's hard for folks to understand how charging for 4-12 hours could be seen as inconvenient enough not to consider an electric vehicle. I guess it might help you to understand consumer behavior more, especially as it relates to cars.
ABrokenWolf@reddit
it's so odd to me to see how people can see letting your car charge the entire time you would have it parked anyways as inconvenient, it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing anyways. For the vast majority of drivers EVs require almost no effort to keep topped up for their daily commutes. the "inconvenience" for the vast majority is overblown by people who have made shitting on EVs a part of their personalities at this point. I say this as someone who still daily drives an ICE sports car, it's a bit silly tbh.
copy_run_start@reddit
People should be more reasonable and practical, I agree. But that's going to happen on the same day that they stop doing any of the other wasteful things they do in the name of convenience... unless they're probably incentivized of course
Suspicious_Shirt_713@reddit
The average driver wouldn’t need a charger installed. My wife drives 40 miles a day and charges on a regular 115 outlet. I bought a level 2 charger last year but it still sits in the box.
copy_run_start@reddit
Exactly yeah, but if people bought cars based on what they truly needed, well, we'd probably have three manufacturers and six total vehicles to choose from haha
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Tbf charging your car overnight on a regular outlet will still give you enough juice to cover the average commute. It’d be like putting a gallon of gas in your car every night
copy_run_start@reddit
For sure, and I'm not saying that it's crazy expensive to get a home charger, or that everyone needs 500 miles of range every day. I'm just saying that these barriers prevent adoption and are real, beyond the political issues or conspiracies or false flag whatevers.
blainestang@reddit
The claim was that they “don’t have a house to charge”, not that they don’t currently have a charger.
Quake_Guy@reddit
And garage is full of junk and can't fit a car....
DrZedex@reddit
This is weirdly accurate. The number of houses on my street with 60k+ dollars worth of vehicles in the driveway to make room for 60k+ CENTS worth of trash in their garage is too high.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
That doesn't have an effect on the ability to charge a car though.
Quake_Guy@reddit
Thought you wanted a reasonably short cable for charging. Not 30 feet from inside of garage.
IAmTheUniverse@reddit
Are these hypothetical people also stacking garbage 20' out of their garage too?
I exclusively charge my EV outside of the garage without issue, but it does need to be <10' from the garage door.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
High-amperage cables that long are a solved problem.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
If you're not planning on putting a car in the garage, it probably isn't a great idea to put the charger there.
That said, the cable that comes with most EVSEs are ~25' and you can get even longer ones if need be.
verdegrrl@reddit
No personal attacks. Thanks.
andygchicago@reddit
And tbh I'm not sure which party they're talking about when certain EV's are being literally attacked by one party
ctzn4@reddit
No psyop, just good ol' fashioned hostile legislation pushing for less efficient vehicles!
Truck_Dog_SmokedMeat@reddit
or maybe just maybe people like the ability to stop literally anywhere and get the full range of there car back in under 5 mins. Also resale value etc etc.
ctzn4@reddit
Or, better yet, let the free market decide after you take away the incentives.
Oops, accidentally taxed them harder too.
Politicsboringagain@reddit
Yeah I would love to have an electric car but it would only be as a secondary or third car.
ctzn4@reddit
We went into it with the same mindset, but then sold our gas car for a second EV and got solar. Unless you frequently road trip (which we don't) I don't see much of a point keeping a secondary gas car.
natesully33@reddit
New car buyers are statistically in a house and can easily get charging.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Most people do have a house to charge though; over 90% of new car buyers own.
merlot2K1@reddit
Funny, but it took the outing of the old administration who was pushing EVs hard for my wife and I to finally give one a try (Ioniq5 2 year lease). Maybe people don't like being told what they should buy?
TowElectric@reddit
I agree, i've never been a fan of mandates.
Norway got to 92% of sales being EVs without mandates (but with incentives) and a fairly aggressive infrastructure rollout funding scheme (which they can now back off on entirely because their infrastructure is already top notch).
bums-a-burnin@reddit
Norway was essentially a mandate though because they made ice vehicles essentially double the cost with taxes
jse000@reddit
Kinda like a sleepy child who won't go to bed because they're being told to?
merlot2K1@reddit
I think it's more like forcing the child to eat their peas while there are more enticing options on the table ;)
jcooklsu@reddit
Your post is also misinformation, the price the average American pays is an intentional misrepresentation or shows a poor understanding of statistics. The average American Motorist will use ~550 gallons of gas a year @ an average state+federal tax rate of .5101 per gallon = $280.55
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=10
https://www.newsnationnow.com/business/your-money/gas-costs-hundreds-more-for-average-american/
blainestang@reddit
Your post is also misinformation, because he said FEDERAL gas tax (and that's what the $250 fee is for), and you added federal tax ($0.18/gal) to the average state tax ($0.32/gal) to get to your total.
The $250/year fee is only meant to replace the FEDERAL taxes, which is only \~$99/year for the average driver (550 gallons * $0.18), according to your own data.
The vast majority of the $280/yr you came up with is for STATE gas tax, so it shouldn't be compared to the $250/yr that's supposed to cover FEDERAL gas taxes.
jcooklsu@reddit
State gas tax is average and is relevant when he mentions both, many states have low or no extra tax on EV's, the fact is that the total tax burden difference between ICE and EV's is negligible.
blainestang@reddit
You’re trying to obfuscate the point by lumping state (the majority of gas taxes) in with federal gas taxes that only cost about $99/yr for the average driver, but this new tax would be 2.5 times as much at $250/yr for federal tax only.
Federal gas tax: $99/yr
Federal EV tax: $250/yr
FirmRoyal@reddit
Both of you should just be listing total taxes or both taxes since the state taxes might vary. When it comes down to it, most don't care if they're paying state or federal, they just care how much total.
captaindigbob@reddit
Wouldn't states also want to recuperate their lost gas tax and charge another tax? Why should that extra money go to the federal level all of a sudden, when states pay for/upkeep most highways.
I think that's why people are comparing the federal EV tax to federal gas tax.
dedzip@reddit
I really think your downplaying the battery repair cost thing. You can replace an engine yourself if you’ve got a hoist. Even if not, your average car engine replacement cost is gonna be like 6K with labor, cheaper if you’ve got an older car or get a junkyard motor. Lots of options to keep an old car alive. Compare that to a $12,000 Tesla model S replacement battery after only 10-15 years and good luck doing it yourself!
However this doesn’t apply to the average consumer who for whatever insane reason thinks they need a brand new car every 5 years
TowElectric@reddit
Most cars will never need a new battery. That’s just not a thing you should expect to need.
Failures have only happened in around 1% of EVs and are primarily due to manufacturing issues (welds cracking, etc) and thermal issues (the Leaf and Bolt recalls) that are better in new vehicles.
Most of the rest are found under warranty.
This just isn’t a thing you should expect to need to do.
I’m currently driving an 8 year old EV with 140k miles. I don’t expect the odds are high the battery will just fail before the rest of the parts of the car.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Also think the hate for Tesla is really turning a lot of people away.
They are still largely the most accessible, and easiest EV's to get into, and now people are fearful over their safety if they do get into them, and they dont want to risk it with a different brand that might not have as good of a reputation for ev's...
Tony-cums@reddit
Yeah well people don’t like Nazis. It’s quite amazing.
greenw40@reddit
Just goes to show that your concern for the environment is mostly for show. All it takes is the next trendy cause and you guys are ready to abandon the last one.
Tony-cums@reddit
Who ever said anything about the environment ?
greenw40@reddit
So you're going to pretend like the whole point of EVs isn't to do with the environment?
Tony-cums@reddit
More to it than that. It also has less moving parts for better longevity. Less maintenance supposedly.
But that’s the kind of narrow thinking I expect from you after your previous post.
greenw40@reddit
I can't tell if you're playing dumb or actually are. "Less moving parts, maybe less maintenance" is way down the list of reasons why EVs are being promoted. If people cared about longevity they would just buy a Toyota and keep it for 20 years.
Tony-cums@reddit
You’re so right. I see the light now.
“You people” sure are smarter than everyone else.
-SUBW00FER-@reddit
Damn, I wonder what the number one selling car in California in 2025 is? State must be full of Nazis surely.
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Parking-Highlight-98@reddit
Only a redditor could be this much of a pseudo-intellectual to think Tesla has anything to do with that because the CEO says things you don't like.
I didn't realize the thousands of people Tesla employs were fascist, thanks for the information you literal dunce.
Mayotte@reddit
Only a tesla elon stan could think it was plausible to say they don't have anything to do with each other.
UnmakingTheBan2022@reddit
I bet you write swastikas in your journal like you do in Teslas.
Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit
Said CEO directly profits from Tesla doing well, so if you don't want to support him financially, not buying his products is a no-brainer.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
As we've long known, the stock performance and company performance is pretty dissociated.
So I'd say that's a tenuous argument at best.
jse000@reddit
If the CEO takes a political stance, they should expect to alienate some potential buyers based on that stance. Free market.
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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
The world is full of dummies, so for sure, but that reflects on them, not Tesla.
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UnmakingTheBan2022@reddit
Funny you say that when you see the type of people, and who the affiliate with, write swastikas all over these Teslas. Hahaha, that party sure loves writing swastikas!!!
djdecimation@reddit
The hate is deserved.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
The hate towards the owner of Tesla is deserved... attacking people, and damaging property because they bought a car made by Tesla is just absolutely ridiculous.
CouncilmanRickPrime@reddit
And yet it's resulted in people getting rid of their Teslas.
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TowElectric@reddit
The only thing you mentioned was safety? You mean from some kind of attack?
The media has blown that up... over the maybe 15 cases it's happened out of 4 million Teslas on the road.
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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
The amplification of that hate has been convenient.
CUDAcores89@reddit
Not everyone has the luxury of affording an EV in the first place.
I challenge you to visit literally any small town in the midwest or the South. You will see rows and rows of cars in the street that are 20+ years old. I frequently see trucks from the 1990s where i live.
As it stands today, there is no EV battery thats going to last 20 year or more, while engines will. After 20 years, every single EV is guaranteed to be ewaste. With gasoline cars, they can keep going.
Ran4@reddit
That's just outright wrong.
CUDAcores89@reddit
Show me a 20 year old battery designed for consumer products that still works perfectly today with zero capacity degradation. You can't. Because it doesn't exist.
Age kills lithium ion batteries regardless of if they are used or not. Age has no affect on a gas engine.
Vazhox@reddit
Well spotted. A lot of people forgot that. A little maintenance and cars can last 200k miles and then some.
I think it’s the rich that are always swapping out of cars that don’t understand this concept.
CUDAcores89@reddit
200K miles is the expected minimum of most vehicles in the midwest, not the maximum. Because the owners of such vehicles tend to be low income and are required to drive everywhere. So they NEED them to last.
Splenda@reddit
Sure, they last...with thousands for a new transmission, plus hundreds at a time here and there for pumps, sensors, radiators, mufflers, converters, manifolds, struts...and that's before we get to the inevitable valve jobs, engine replacements, etc..
The argument that batteries are some kind of terrible flaw unique to EVs is just a scare tactic. Overall, most EVs cost far less to maintain.
I agree that US charging infrastructure is awful, as are most US EV policies, all of which makes EVs needlessly expensive and difficult here. However, the rest of the world is showing the way forward.
su1ac0@reddit
Amplify that by comparing it to the needs of the entire developed world
It's hard enough for these people to understand middle class Americans who, by global standards, are still obscenely wealthy.
But go visit developing nations and start telling them "that 9th owner 1982 Mercedes 240d that cost you $1,000 [a year's wages] must be replaced by a $35k EV by 2035."
____whatever___@reddit
The rich swap cars because I they can and want to
markeydarkey2@reddit
What makes you confident that no battery can last 20 years?
Awfully convenient to mention e-waste of batteries as if they're not very recyclable while ignoring the consumption of fossil fuels required for a combustion car.
CUDAcores89@reddit
EVs are better for the environment in almost every way than a gas car. One thing that people frequently forget is we have to dig the hazardous minerals put of the ground to make a battery - once. But with a gas car, we have to drill oil out of the ground every day for the lifetime of the car.
But this doesnt answer my question anyway.
When people think of transitioning the US to all EVs, they tend to focus on only the people who can easily afford them. But nobody is thinking about the poorest segment of our population who is living hand-to-mouth, where a $10K EV batttery replacement (which you would need to do on the types of cars these people buy) isn't an option. Meanwhile, a 20 year old gas car that this low-income family might be buying does NOT have a battery degredation problem. Engines (the most expensive part of a car), will have almost exactly the same range 20 years from now as they had when they rolled off the factory.
So given these facts, what is the poorest segment of our population going to pick? The gas car of course. Even if its not the most environmentally feiendly (or even cost-effective) option.
markeydarkey2@reddit
I'm not saying everyone of all income groups should drive an EV ASAP but batteries are going to be far cheaper to replace 20 (let alone 10) years from now, the replacement costs we see today won't stay the same. I don't know what the future of EVs will look like for the poorest folks, but the lower running costs (via electricity) will make them viable to an extent.
You can buy lightly used battery modules for Ultium EVs like the Cadillac Lyriq for ~$620 nowadays (it uses 12 modules, making a replacement pack ~$7500) and the Ultium EVs were designed to be repairable with modular packs. As GM cranks out more EVs with those modules I expect those prices to drop further. You might end up having scenarios in 2045 where people finance the replacement battery for an old EV because the monthly cost is comparable or less than buying gas for an old ICE.
6158675309@reddit
EVs are not for everyone, that is true
But, EV batteries are not an issue. That is part of the OP's original comment, there is a massive disconnect on how long a battery do last vs what everyone, including you, seem to think.
EV batteries will almost certainly last longer than the useful life of the EV.
https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/
EV batteries are also recycled, almost 100% of the battery can be recycled or up cycled. Wrecked EV batteries are being used for grid storage, etc.
Lots of other challenges for mass adoption in the US but battery longevity has been pretty much solved.
su1ac0@reddit
What is the useful life of an EV?
6158675309@reddit
20+ years? I wasn’t trying to be cute or anything but the same as an ICE car.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
I have a 16 year old camera battery that's still good enough to be in my main rotation, despite no active management or cooling, so I'll take that action.
su1ac0@reddit
You can trade that Civic Si for one any day chief.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
That's the plan. By the time the depreciation curve gets into the sweet spot for a good drivers EV, I'll hopefully be alright with not having a manual anymore.
su1ac0@reddit
A model 3 with 20k miles is in the low 20's.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Not where I'm at; they're more like mid-30s, but I'm going to wait the 3-4 years for a '24-25 Performance to hit ~$30k.
EVRoadie@reddit
That's not really true anymore. Most degradation on a battery is in the first year and most manufacturers now design for that issue with backup cells within the pack.
CUDAcores89@reddit
I'll believe you when i see an EV on the road from 2014 in 2044 that has never had jts battery changed.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
That’s still not a lot. I see 30 year olds Hondas and Toyotas and pick up trucks driving around all the time. I doubt those things have any less than 300k miles on them too. That’s my expectation of any car.
TowElectric@reddit
Sure, and 2014 were "prototype" cars in a lot of way and had chemistry issues with their battery.
The first year of reliable modern batteries was about 2017... just a note.
There are a number of 2017 cars with 300k miles or more with the same battery, however.
I don't see any reason they won't last another 12 years, except they'll be all rusty and gross by then.
RoboModeTrip@reddit
Aight let me visit my own small town in midwest of a few thousand people. Oh would you look at that, Would say less than half are cars older than 10 years. People love their new trucks and SUVs. See the occasional Tesla too.
Kaiathebluenose@reddit
I thought EV batteries can last up to 400k miles
llamacohort@reddit
They can generally last a long time. Here is an old model with the most miles I know of:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/18c29fy/this_12_millionmile_tesla_model_s_is_on_its_14th/
I assume the motors are better now because replacing 1 ever 100k miles sounds insane to me. But the motors aren't the expensive part, it's the battery. Three batteries in 1.2 million miles is pretty good.
It does make me wonder when they are replacing it. Because the battery pack doesn't "go bad". It just degrades over time. 70% is the trigger for warranty claims. But you could be rocking 40% of original range without replacing the battery and still driving to work every day.
TowElectric@reddit
I don't think that's necessarily true. But my EV is only 8.5 years old, so I guess we'll see.
Battery components are nearly 100% recycled at this point. The Lithium, cobalt, etc is worth recovering and it's largely done. The scrap value of an EV is several thousand dollars, mostly because of these battery components. It does take energy, which is why many of the recycling plants are in the arizona desert and have a ton of solar out back.
TowElectric@reddit
I don't think that's necessarily true. But my EV is only 8.5 years old, so I guess we'll see.
Battery components are nearly 100% recycled at this point. The Lithium, cobalt, etc is worth recovering and it's largely done. The scrap value of an EV is several thousand dollars, mostly because of these battery components. It does take energy, which is why many of the recycling plants are in the arizona desert and have a ton of solar out back.
guy_incognito784@reddit
Well yeah, no shit people who are lower income can't afford a new car.
Gilbert0686@reddit
$58 on gas taxes a year? That seems awfully low.
Ohio gets taxed $0.569 per gallon. Between federal and state. If I buy 28 gallons of fuel every two weeks I’m spending $414 just on tax.
ReallySmallWeenus@reddit
They’re wrong, but 28 gallons every 2 weeks is a lot of fuel, and I drive a lot by most standards.
Gilbert0686@reddit
I get 12 miles a gallon in my truck. And live slightly out in the country. So it’s 4-5 miles to get to town.
willpc14@reddit
I'm sorry, you drive a vehicle that gets 12mpg and you're complaining about a gas tax?
vikingcock@reddit
Yall don't see that they arent complaining about gas tax and instead is pointing out the OP was wildly undershooting the actual tax burden?
willpc14@reddit
Because they're driving a vehicle that gets 12 mpg. This is a problem created entirely by people who drive phenomenally inefficient vehicles.
nekmatu@reddit
Or poor people with old cars…
popsicle_of_meat@reddit
A bigger problem is that you are assuming the person getting 12mpg has a choice. Maybe it's a work truck. Maybe it's the only truck they can afford. Maybe it's the only vehicle that does what they need it to--haul a heavy load. Maybe it is actually a choice to drive something inefficient. But you can't make them the problem without knowing WHY.
vikingcock@reddit
Their point is accurate though. I have a tacoma in California and get about 22mpg. I have to drive to multiple cities either for work or for appointments. I end up getting around 10 gallons a week at a $.90 in gas tax per gallon. Extrapolate that out and that's 520 gallons or about $470 per year in gas tax. And that's just a single vehicle and doesnt include my other vehicles in florida. Very few people are paying $58 dollars a year and its disingenuous to state it as fact.
Hell, my hybrid we purchased this year and have put 6800 miles on in Florida has used roughly 180 gallons of gas and paid 68 dollars SO FAR. considering the average American drives 14k miles per year, that would mean the OPs math is off considerably.
willpc14@reddit
Allow me to play the worlds smallest violin for the second home owner who drives an inefficient vehicle complaining about taxes
vikingcock@reddit
I dont own two homes. I own a home where my family lives and work in a different state to make ends meet. Don't cope so hard man, all of us are fucking doing what we can to make things work.
LordofSpheres@reddit
The point is not accurate because the average American does not get 12mpg. The average American gets probably 23mpg and drives 15,000 mi/yr, and pays an average of $0.53/gal in gas tax to total an average of $343 in gas tax. That means that the average American would still pay more in tax with a $200/yr state level tax and $250/yr federal tax.
Hoovooloo42@reddit
You bought the wrong truck if you're that worried about gas prices.
Confirmed_AM_EGINEER@reddit
Most people don't buy 28 gallons of fuel every 2 weeks for one vehicle.
I live in PA, our gas tax is the same as Ohio. I drive a 2018 Chevy Cruze diesel manual. But that car gets 50 mpg so maybe let's call that cheating. I also have a company car for work I drive a lot. It's a 2022 Honda accord. It regularly gets tanks of gas that exceed 45mpg but even then let's just call the fuel economy at 38mpg.
So if I drive that accord an average 12,000 miles a year I would consume 316 gallons of gas and that would pay PA $180 in gas tax. Okay, hey, that makes it seem pretty reasonable, only a $20 difference.
The problem is that's not what I actually drive. I drive a 2018 Chevy Cruze Diesel Manual Sedan. I get 50mpg or more out of every tank of fuel I put in that car. I also only drive it about 6000 miles a year because of my company car and my wife's bolt. We pretty much only use the Cruze on road trips where the bolt doesn't make sense.
Now let's run those numbers. 50mpg. 6000 miles. 120 gallons. $68.4, hell, let's round up. $69, nice.
Now I don't know about you but I did pass 3rd grade math. So I know that I actually pay 2.9 times less in tax with my gas (technically diesel) car than I would with my wifes bolt EUV. Now how is that fair?
It's not and it's not supposed to be. It is meant to deter EV buyers. And we aren't even talking about the $250 federal tax that they are looking to stack on top of this. Once the total number becomes $450 then it just makes no sense at all.
But, there is a simple solution. Since I still have to take in my EV for annual inspections, an inspection that costs the same as a gas car even though they just don't do the emissions portion on the EV's, I have to give them my odometer reading anyway so why not just subtract last year's odometer reading from this year's odometer reading? If we did that we could create an "EV milage tax" or whatever. I concede EV's generally weigh more than a gas car so a slightly higher tax is something I would understand.
Let's take the Accord for example. In that example the Accord pays $0.015 per mile in gas tax. Let's pull a number right out of my ass and say that EV's on average weigh 30% more than gas cars and therefore should pay a 30% higher tax. Okay, that means my "EV milage tax" should be $0.0195 per mile. So now when I take my car in for the annual inspection they pull my reading from this year and last, give me the difference and multiply it by 0.0195. easy. This means the average EV that drives an average 12,000 miles a year would pay $234 a year in tax.
WOW! That number is bigger than the other one! But it is fair. It is an actually fair system that actually cares to be fair. And really it should have specific rates for specific weight classes of vehicle, but I digress.
These EV taxes plus the cancellation of all EV tax credits are purely meant to slow the growth of the ev segment. That is their only purpose.
time-lord@reddit
So, the EUV weighs about the same as a Forester, and less than a BMW or higher end sedan. So not only should it not be 30% more expensive, but maybe make it 10% less expensive because of how light it is compared to ICE vehicles.
You also forgot that the EV tax (both federal and PA state) is going to track inflation, which means it will go up ~2% every year. The federal gas tax hasn't been changed in like decades, meaning every year it will get ~2% more expensive to drive an EV compared to an ICE.
KobeBean@reddit
It’d be great if we taxed based on weight as well (since that’s what contributes to road wear as well), but then you’d piss off both the EV drivers and Truckers so that’s never gonna happen.
There’s no valid reason a Miata should have the same tax as a hummer EV.
Confirmed_AM_EGINEER@reddit
I agree. There really should be per ton weight classes. Class 1 - 1 ton, Class 2 - 2 ton, etc. I just figured the original comment was already too long.
Superlolz@reddit
Don't forget they had the magical foresight to make the new EV taxes scale with inflation too but kept the same gas tax for decades
Confirmed_AM_EGINEER@reddit
I was going to mention that but I figured 5 paragraphs was sufficient.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
This argument isn't true at all, but there's an important takeaway from it. Most Americans don't bat an eye at gas taxes because they pay them at the pump and have no clue how much it adds up to. If they paid that $400+ once at the end of the year instead, they would be more upset about it. Meanwhile, with EVs, owners have to pay their $250+ all at once, so it feels a lot worse than it actually is. It's a scare tactic to make EV ownership seem more expensive, since most drivers don't register that their gas is taxed at all.
Skensis@reddit
Honestly, you should just be taxed based on miles and vehicle weight.
jcooklsu@reddit
They lied and/or don't understand statistics, my guess is they divided gas taxes by population rather than motorist count, doing the same for the electric taxes to cover roadways would also drop the average tax paid way down.
okglue@reddit
They clearly have an agenda and aren't interested in fairly representing both sides.
popsicle_of_meat@reddit
This is true of pretty much everyone. Both "sides" of politics, every business owner, every influencer, and person trying to push a cause. You don't get what you want by fairly representing both sides.
Owe-No@reddit
Not to mention Gas Tax Georg.
sprchrgddc5@reddit
Like taking hentai purchase and dividing it by the entire population and saying the average American spends $420.69 on hentai every year.
enfuego138@reddit
The Federal portion is 18.4 cents a gallon. The Federal tax is $250. Even in your 20 mpg truck you’d need to drive 25,000 to break even.
Ohio’s EV tax is $200, so $450 total.
That means that even in your truck you’re paying less in road tax than every EV registered in Ohio.
TowElectric@reddit
Sorry its $92 in federal tax.
States are already doing whatever they're doing to offset tax (which is a little over $100/yr for most people).
That's based on .184 federal gas tax and 504 median gallons used.
EVs are being charged a $250/yr fee by the feds.
States each do their own thing. Some have high gas taxes, others don't, some charge an EV tax fee, others don't.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
You're responding to a moron. No one isn't buying an ev because they don't want to pay for the tax. They're not buying an EV for a hundred reasons. The reason I have zero desire to buy an EV is because I think EVs are fucking annoying to drive with their regenerative breaking, terrible regular breaks, and shitty creep mimicking, and I hate the shittification of interior with all EVs.
Politicsboringagain@reddit
That person must think people only drive a few hundred miles a year.
EVRoadie@reddit
What are you driving? Napkin math off 15,000 miles per year for a 30mpg vehicle is $284.5 in taxes.
Gilbert0686@reddit
A truck. And I’m not driving nearly as much as I used to. I was filling up weekly. But recently lost my job so I’m not driving as much daily now.
EVRoadie@reddit
We switched from a Sequoia. I miss some things about it, namely storage capacity, but I don't miss the 15mpg.
Mogwire@reddit
Where do you see your numbers? 0.569 is California.
Ohio is 0.385 per https://www.complyiq.io/gas-tax-state-2/ and https://tax.ohio.gov/business/ohio-business-taxes/excise/motor-fuel/tax-rates
RandomRedditRebel@reddit
I like when my car goes "vroom"
OMGpawned@reddit
Well then, Dodge Charger EV is for you lol
TowElectric@reddit
huh i guess. I lived near a major road and was woken up multiple times per night for years by that, so I'm pretty anti-vroom these days.
Svr-boi@reddit
In my own experience hybrid is just the way to go less buy in cost and less lifestyle changes
TowElectric@reddit
Fair enough. I like never needing gas. Never doing oil changes, etc.
Spending two hours a year chasing oil changes and another couple hours at gas stations FAR outweighs the 1-2 extra hours across the year for extra stops on a road trip.
Svr-boi@reddit
no doubt the Ev pros are great if you can make it work.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
Do they Hayley on it tho? They love Tesla
SeriousMongoose2290@reddit
Tbh I just don’t care for EVs. It’s not because of anything else.
TowElectric@reddit
Very nearly 100% of people i knew who said "I don't like EVs"... but then actually experienced having/driving one for a week has changed to "huh ok well I totally misunderstood and it's actually pretty nice, I might want one".
Not 100% but close.
merlot2K1@reddit
I never not liked them - I just didn't care for politicians ramming them down our throat. Plus I knew they would and will never overtake ICE. But they make a fantastic 2nd car (or in my case, 4th). For running errands around town (short trips), an EV makes more sense than an ICE vehicle. There's no warm up time and no wasted energy (ICE isn't working efficiently until fully warmed up, which could be 10+miles or 30 minutes of driving). ICE rules for road trips, long commutes, and in general are more convenient due to the supporting structure.
TowElectric@reddit
Eh, We've been an EV only household for several years and it's just not an issue.
Road trips... charging takes about as long as I take breaks. Adds about 2-3 hours per year (that's multiple road trips) above someone who just wants to hard-core marathon their driving.
But I save way more than that in not having to get gas every week. Shrug.
I did a 150 mile round trip commute for a bit in one too. Absolutely amazing, not having to stop for gas every other day.. but just being full each morning. Not to mention saving $100/wk on the long commute.
Shrug, a lot of the complaints are smoke screens, to be honest, though there are a few fairly limited edge cases (travelling salesman? Rural vet? heavy hauling rancher?) who would really struggle with a BEV.
merlot2K1@reddit
I use mine in rotation with my other vehicles for my 100 mile round trip commute. I also plan to use it for a shorter road trip this summer (will only need a 15 minute charge one way).
Still, I love my ICE vehicles. No EV can ever replace the glorious sound of a flat six. That's where EVs fail to those who care about a visceral driving experience.
I don't think many of those complaints are smokescreens though. While I do 98% of charging at home, I can see public only charging as a nuisance. You can fill an empty tank in 5 minutes and have more range and more options to fill than you can for EV. Once you can charge an EV to full on 5 minutes, that would be a huge plus. But then the infrastructure still needs to improve.
ubercruise@reddit
This was me. Didn’t hate them but didn’t care for them or like them. Then tried one and realized it was so much better for my daily duties
ChuckWorx@reddit
I'm confused... I thought the biggest electric car CEO was getting free publicity and endorsements from this very same party? So which is it? People are entitled to hate on electric cars for reasons other than political. The range can suck, especially in cold environments. They are often very expensive and require a home to charge them in over night. They can consume wearables faster than other alternatives due to their immense weight and are a pain to work on for the same reason. Being a beta tester for new features or tech, or over air updates that can mess up other software in the process and is also annoying. These are all valid reasons for most people not to risk their second biggest expense in life on EVs that are still developing.
SmaCactus@reddit
BYD sold more than double the number of EVs as Teslas in 2024.
ChuckWorx@reddit
BYD doesn't sell to Americans. Therefore Conservative influence doesn't effect BYD sales. Your point is irrelevant to the conversation.
SmaCactus@reddit
My point is Tesla is nowhere close to being the biggest EV car company as you had claimed.
TowElectric@reddit
Dont be pedantic.
SmaCactus@reddit
Why not?
ChuckWorx@reddit
The whole conversation started with blaming conservatives for ev sales decline for an article about American buying sentiment. Tesla is the biggest EV seller in the US. Your point is again irrelevant to the conversation. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
They'll probably sell more this year, but they sold slightly less than Tesla last year.
blainestang@reddit
2024 BEV sales
BYD: 1,777,965 Tesla: 1,774,442
Nowhere even close to double unless you count plug-in hybrids which is not the topic.
stakoverflo@reddit
There is no fucking chance anyone buying a brand new car decides to buy an ICE instead of an EV because of a ~$100 annual tax lmao
AmericanExcellence@reddit
the reasons are poor range and long charging times.
in other words, the're not as good as normal cars.
now that the wild fear-hype cycle of the past few years has largely burned itself out (thanks in no small part to pramila jayapal's humiliating defeat on the issue), we're seeing a reversion to normalcy.
TowElectric@reddit
You'd have to pay me quite a lot to go back to a gas car and that's not some tree hugger thing.
It's just far superior to drive.. and I spend less time in a year "filling up", since it takes zero time.
It costs me 1/4 as much per mile...
I mean if you live in an apartment, sure, but if you have a house, it saves money AND time AND it's nicer to drive (except for people who want their daily driver to go "brap brap").
ChiefAoki@reddit
The amount of planning(range buffers, charger locations, etc) going into EV ownership is just not something that the majority of Americans are willing to deal with. The average person here wants to hop into a car, run errands, and want nothing to do with the car when they get home, most don't even do a walk around once they park. Asking them to plug theirs car in when they get home or schedule charging at a charger somewhere on their route is like pulling teeth.
EV's don't react well to the poor decision making skills most people have, but regular ICE vehicles have a lot more leeway. Run out of gas? Hitch a ride or hike to a gas station with a jerry can and you're good to go.
TowElectric@reddit
Yes, this is why Tesla is so popular, it does all that stuff for you.
AAA has recharge services, but I've never run out of gas (or charge) in 25 years of driving... so.. meh.
ChiefAoki@reddit
Right, and your average American doesn't have a AAA subscription, a quick search shows that only 30% of Americans have one, so if someone who doesn't have AAA run out of charge, they're paying for a tow to the closest charger.
I too have never ran out of gas, because I pull over and fuel up long before the needle hits 'E', but I also know A LOT of people who try to push their limit every time the yellow fuel light comes on. The warnings and buffers only work for drivers who heed them, and a lot of people don't.
If EV wants to see wide adoption, they're going to have to make it a lot more forgiving because the average person here have piss poor decision making skills.
Killself98@reddit
https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/federal/local-state-and-federal-gas-taxes-consume-459-cents-gallon-average/ uhm.... "According to data on gasoline use from the U.S. Department of Transportation, that amounts to an annual gas tax burden of roughly $271 for every man, woman and child in the United States."
TowElectric@reddit
Sorry, was supposed to refer to federal gas tax, which is $92 of that amount for the average gas car (compared to $250 now for EVs).
The average state is charging $100 to offset THEIR portion as well, which arguably should be closer to $150 by the math above, except that most EVs are more efficient than the "median vehicle" in the US, so maybe $100 is reasonable.
But $250 federally almost certainly is not, unless it's intended to be penal.
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
Yeah, EVs are just honestly great to drive. If there wasn’t all this weird dumbass conservative hate around them, I think most normal people would want them. As “normal” vehicles, electric powertrains are so much better than anything else
kiakosan@reddit
Did not know that the conservatives were the ones destroying and defacing one of the most popular EV makes in the United States.
Agloe_Dreams@reddit
I mean..the CEO sure is conservative and is destroying it himself so...
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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TrainOfThought6@reddit
Do you think that has anything to do with them being EVs?
kiakosan@reddit
I don't think it matters, I'm sure if you looked at the amount of people who vandalized EVs in the past year or so by affiliation your not going to find conservatives on the top of the list. More of them are buying EVs now then before
IknowwhatIhave@reddit
Lol no they aren't... People want V8s.
DukeoftheGingers@reddit
Your math does not math right, $58/yr on fuel taxes is a nutty number.
TowElectric@reddit
Sorry its $92 in federal tax.
States are already doing whatever they're doing to offset tax (which is a little over $100/yr for most people).
RacerM53@reddit
My comment got mass reported lol
TowElectric@reddit
It was removed by site admin, which usually means it violates fairly significant rules, not just moderator sub rules.
RacerM53@reddit
🤷♂️
t-poke@reddit
Reddit is getting ridiculous with that shit. I got a 3 day ban for quoting Brian Cox's line in the shenanigans scene in Super Troopers, because it was threatening violence.
I'm starting to understand why people use dumb euphemisms like unalive. Have to walk on eggshells around here now.
RacerM53@reddit
Im one of the few who are genuinely excited about the rumors of reddit replacing the majority of its moderation with ai. Reddit mods are way too biased and fickle. The ai probably won't understand context or jokes, but that's better than reddit mods doing that on purpose.
(If I get banned for this comment, then that really proves my point)
Drzhivago138@reddit
What did the comment say?
RacerM53@reddit
I dont know how to dm lol
RacerM53@reddit
Got a warning for it, so I don't want to type it again, but I'll dm you
nowhereman86@reddit
Dude the republicans are not to blame for this nonsense. The cars are too expensive and not enough people have access to at home charging.
el_chino_del_mal@reddit
So i bought an ev because while i was active duty, on base housing had free utilities. So it made sense at the time. However adding in long distance trips, high costs at charging stations, winter temps zapping the battery, ive grown to hate my car. The high alternative fuels tax was the kicker for me. I settled in the south and they charge out the ass during registration for an alternate fuels tax. Its even more infuriating when the roads are shit down here.
Apexnanoman@reddit
I'm not downing on electric cars at all. They are by far the superior choice in an urban environment.
With that big said..... I can safely replace the engine in my truck with fairly basic tools for about 6K.
I don't have the knowledge or skills to feel comfortable with screwing around with an 800 volt battery pack.
Nor do I have the specialized tools to be working with that level of voltage. You have to have the right scan tools and the battery likely needs to be preconditioned etc.
Bubba can replace the engine in his Silverado in a day or two in the driveway. If bubba screws up with a battery pack, he could have a super fun lithium battery explosion.
The battery pack on a model 3 long range is estimated anywhere from $7,000 to $20K. And I'm honestly unsure if lithium battery packs will ever be cheaper than internal combustion engines. Materials and manufacturing cost is really high on them.
I will say that all the wacko ass misinformation gets on my nerves. But at the same time some of people's complaints are perfectly reasonable.
natesully33@reddit
I think the US car market is going to be an increasingly weird place, between our EV aversion and love of pickup trucks. Right now we do get "world car" CUVs, but as those start to electrify in other markets we might see a split there too.
Seriously, as a long term EV owner, my eyes hurt from rolling so hard at some of the things I still see about battery fires, replacement costs, the truth about the environmental impact "they" don't want you to know, road trips are impossible, etc. Of course fighting it is a bit of a losing battle - not that you should give up, but that stuff spreads like wildfire when people want to believe in their own truth.
That said I think it's very true that BEVs still have a high up-front cost in the US, combined with cars going up in general and some unfortunate socioeconomic trends that's not great for adoption rates. I live in a high cost area and unsurprisingly, I see more BEVs around me every day - a Silv-E-rado and Equinox EV just appeared last week down the street. It would seem that cost is one of the biggest, if not the biggest real barriers to adoption.
SummertimeThrowaway2@reddit
Rebuilding an engine is not that expensive if you do it yourself. I can imagine an amateur mechanic would struggle to work on an EV.
Quidegosumhic@reddit
The costco parking lot was closed the other day because a Ford lightning caught fire. Doesn't seem like misinformation to me. Also new engines aren't 25k to replace and lose performance and range with every use.
ubercruise@reddit
Engines will lose performance and range with use. It’s just not a core consideration for most people.
RiseFromYourGrav@reddit
There's lots of 20 year old ICE cars still on the road. My grandmother just gave up her '00 Cherokee last year that was rusting out, but otherwise had a perfectly fine engine.
We don't have EVs that old (at least, commercially available ones) to compare against.
That being said, EVs these days have enough range that even losing a significant percentage of that leaves a perfectly usable battery for city driving. I'm considering one. Of course, my affordable options are the Korean brand that is really good at cutting corners (see: my flair, a good example of how ICE can go wrong) or the American one run by a madman.
EVRoadie@reddit
Fwiw, I've been very happy with my EV6. It's not perfect and the dealership has been....fun...but I still love it.
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
Yeah, because famously, internal combustion engines have never caught on fire ever.
antryoo@reddit
An ice vehicle is more likely to catch on fire
If on fire, an EV is far harder to extinguish
ChuckWorx@reddit
Yes, and one can be put out in minutes, while the other can take all day.
____whatever___@reddit
While I agree this is stupid it hasn’t happened yet and I doubt it having any impact on current sales
KingKontinuum@reddit
Also battery car fires are far less common than ICE ones
techtimee@reddit
Any other obvious and bigger issues you can come up with for why people may not care to purchase them?
RacerM53@reddit
Setting a bunch on fire and attacking the owners might move the needle a bit too
strom1224@reddit
We want the road of a V8 not the whine of an electric motor.
banned_from_r_cars@reddit
Have owned multiple V8 muscle cars, but honestly don't think I'll ever buy a gasoline powered vehicle again after owning an EV.
PhilosopherChemical1@reddit
I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted. You are speaking the truth. Until, they own a good EV, they just won't understand. I still love my V10 but and Fiata but the convenience of EV, is unmatched. That instant torque... Is everything.
banned_from_r_cars@reddit
I'm down voted because car enthusiasts online are basically a circlejerk of hating on anything new. They hate screens instead of buttons. They hate electric over gas. They hate anything new basically until everyone has it. Like even nowadays you don't see as much hate towards automatics as you did 5-10 years ago because even most sports cars have amazing automatics.
My last muscle car was an '18 Mustang GT with the Performance Package. It was a great car and very fun to listen to the Coyote scream, but most of your day to day driving I enjoy silently accelerating past everyone.
My other daily driver is a V8 Lexus SUV. If I knew an EV was going to be as reliable and had the same power and off-road abilities I'd replace it no questions asked.
Like last week leaving the grocery store in my Model Y Performance I had a Jeep Trackhawk revving at me non-stop. We get to the light onto the 4-lane I and completely embarrassed that guy. I think he had cheap tires too from what I had noticed, so he lost any advantage he had on paper.
Scazitar@reddit
I think a large part of it is the massive lack of effort buy the big manufacturers to make people excited about EVs.
A majority of offerings are generic cars copying the same tesla blueprint for years with huge price tags.
A lot lack of innovation in the states. It's just boring car after boring car. I think people would make less excuses to avoid it if it sounded like a fun thing to try.
Wheelisbroke@reddit
We’re going to get smoked by the Chinese later on when we realize EVs are the future & US industry quit investing in it. Their cars are already VERY good & prices will continue to drop. They’d already be selling here if we didn’t block it. They already sell a model in China for $8000.
schen72@reddit
In another generation, the USA will no longer be a major auto manufacturer. At best maybe a niche manufacturer of uniquely "American" cars. This is my prediction. It okay though. Not every 1st world country needs to be a major auto manufacturer.
YourOwnBiggestFan@reddit
The US is a major manufacturer of automobiles likely because of the US-specific models.
Add up F-Series, Silverado and Sierra sales, multiply them by their sales prices, and you end up with the world's #3 auto sector by last 4 quarters' revenue in Q3 2024.
The US auto manufacturing sector combined, even discounting Stellantis ($101b) as a Dutch company, would add up to $467b in revenue in the aforementioned period - less than the ~$700b of Japan and Germany each, but $138b ahead of China and more than twice of South Korea.
And before someone says "but Tesla" - Ford and GM alone were responsible for about 75% of the revenue, and if you added Stellantis, then the Big Three would have been responsible for over 80% of the resulting $569b.
Wheelisbroke@reddit
If we don’t lead in design, innovation & manufacturing the whole capitalism thing falls apart. We employ a TON of people building vehicles. We have a huge country. Transportation can’t be solved with public transport, so we’ll still need personal means.
schen72@reddit
We don't have to design and build cars to have personal transport. Lots of successful countries don't design or build cars. Yes, many people will lose their jobs and livelihood. The only logical conclusion I can arrive at is that the "people" are okay with this as the policies of not investing in EV R&D is taking us down this path.
LowAd3406@reddit
The reason they are blocked from the US and EU is because they're shit quality, that's why they are $8,000 dollars. They don't even come close to meeting basic safety requirements.
Wheelisbroke@reddit
Ford CEO Jim Farley had one for six months & said the complete opposite about their quality.
TenguBlade@reddit
A Xiaomi SU7 Max also isn’t $8k.
r00000000@reddit
They're not blocked in the EU lol, and Australia also has very strict safety requirements (arguably stricter than the US) and they've had Chinese cars forever. The Chinese car ban is nothing to do with the quality of cars, everything to do with politics and protectionism.
TenguBlade@reddit
Canada is running as far away from Chinese electric buses as possible. TTC ordered one trial batch from BYD, saw how badly they aged, and switched exclusively to New Flyer. Australia continues to order some Chinese buses, but other manufacturers like Denning and Scania are outselling them.
jzr171@reddit
Yeah but would you actually trust a car from China? I wouldn't. You can have them exist but they won't sell in most of the world
II-III-V-VII-XI@reddit
You own a Dodge. Delete this dumb comment.
Wheelisbroke@reddit
I wouldn't trust a Kia Soul, but they sure do sell a lot of them!
RoboModeTrip@reddit
Weird because they do sell in most of the world.
su1ac0@reddit
We're going to get smoked by China because they can leverage stolen IP and slave labor to undercut any competitor in any industry
We used to know this, but we like to choose situations where we pretend it's just capitalism baby and cover our eyes
wip30ut@reddit
the problem is that if we opened the floodgates now Chinese EV would swamp the market. US firms would abandon trying to compete in the lower price half of the market.
su1ac0@reddit
I'll never stop laughing at how reddit lost its mind when the Blazer returned as a shitty FWD econobox
But then celebrated when the same car was turned into an EV at double the price
"Out of touch" doesn't even begin to describe it
billythygoat@reddit
If you rent, most of the time you can't charge reliably or economically.
PSfreak10001@reddit
This thread proves every preconception the rest of the world has about people from the states
MembershipNo2077@reddit
Do people in other countries not live in apartments that lack charging? Because that seems to be a big impediment that a lot of people are voicing: lack of at-home charging.
PSfreak10001@reddit
At least in my country every new building has to have charging capabilities. And if you want one installed in an existing building you get it strongly subsidized by the government. Otherwise you might have check out how Norway did it, they have like 95% EV sales and manage to do fine even in the cold climate.
YourOwnBiggestFan@reddit
OK, but how many countries like that are there?
greenw40@reddit
Lol, according to reddit the entire world is stupid America and shiny perfect Norway.
PSfreak10001@reddit
I mean the article is about america so that is the main point. I justs gave norway as an example because they are the only country where EV‘s are the absolut majority. That doesn‘t mean that other countries don‘t exist, but in a discution about the feasibility of EV‘s in america they are the 2 most important factors. Both are rich developped, democratic countries, sure I could also mention China, but there the circulstances are very different
greenw40@reddit
And because people on this sub absolutely love to compare the US and Norway, because then they can point at a bunch of stats and get some sweet "America bad" karma.
Norway is entirely irrelevant to a discussion about EVs in America.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
US probably does, but a lot of those houses are rented and if you're renting you're definitely not going install a charger so you're probably running an extension cable which is very very slow.
Newer apartment buildings do sometimes have chargers, but I personally found they were almost always taken by people who parked there overnight. That's fine when a small percentage own EVs, but if you wanted the percentage to increase it'd become a problem quickly.
Still, if 1/3rd of your population is renters, that's a fairly sizable market to be missing out on in any industry.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
In China, many people are living in apartments/condos, but they have ways and rules to solve. You don't wonder why their EV sales crazy.
HalfWheelDrive@reddit
They have to pay a big penalty to buy a car with a gas engine, its like 100k rmb. Also, there are only so many, so if you don't get one in the auction you can't buy a license for a gas engine.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
They sure do have ways and, sometimes quite strict, rules to push people into EVs. So no, I don't wonder. But in countries without those ways, I also am not surprised when EV sales aren't as sharp.
Nobody asks why Japanese EV sales are low, after all. Or, for that matter places like the Australia or India. Or, I should say, no one gets mad at them for it. It's fairly implicit and assumed they would be low. But when it comes to the US, people get quite up in arms.
LowAd3406@reddit
Americans are so stupid, amirite?
PSfreak10001@reddit
No not in terms of intellugence, but more so their irrational love for V8‘s in every car, the turning everything into a culture war and the fact that they all seem to have to drive 400 miles to get groceries. And of course the absolut underinvestement in public infrastrcture, EV charging in this case
Itsallaboutsatellies@reddit
No. Americans are becoming less interested in buying Teslas. A friend is the GM of a local Hyundai dealer and he cannot keep the Ioniq 6 or 9 on the lot. They are sold before he even gets them. He now has 2 on his lot now because the owner bought them for himself so people could see them in person and test drive them. When you look at their website it says In-transit next to each Ioniq 6 or 9.
redditproha@reddit
The problem is not EVs, it's charging infrustracture. Landlords will not spend a dime until they're forced to by law. The solution is regulation.
The other solution is electric utilities putting up public charging infrastructure and basically collecting free money
Independent-End-2443@reddit
Not surprising, they're still too expensive for most people, and the choices these days leave a lot to be desired. Further, as a country, we've chosen to disincentivize the development of cheaper EVs, so this trend will only continue until that changes.
IsometricRain@reddit
This is the main sticking point IMO. If you just need an appliance, that's efficient and decent looking, hybrids are already really good and usually cheaper. If you're an enthusiast, than most EVs just aren't good enough.
Tesla was en route to taking over the market, but their interiors never got better, and then the brand got associated with certain politics that turned some people off. Rivian doesn't have anything affordable yet, and who knows when that'll come. Toyota/Honda/Mazda's biggest sellers don't have full EV versions yet.
weaponR@reddit
What do you mean? Most EVs will absolutely dust any ICE car. They're faster technology by far. The only argument I could see would have to do with the desire for sound and a manual (which a lot of people online talk about wanting, but then real world numbers don't support).
railbeast@reddit
Driver engagement is way less. I test drove a M3P and while I think it's an incredible road car, any 1990 Miata is way more fun the moment it's curvy and sunny out.
strongmanass@reddit
I want a convertible EV with selectable FWD, RWD, or AWD, torque vectoring, and a long list of other features. There's one option for me on the US market. It's $200K+ and has a 200 mile range. Every other competitor is delayed indefinitely, and most enthusiast auto makers have said they're delaying their performance EVs.
Maserati MC20 Folgore: canceled
Polestar 6: delayed until at least 2027
Lamborghini Lanzador: delayed until 2029
Porsche 718 EV: delayed indefinitely (or some date they won't publicly share)
Aston Martin EV: delayed indefinitely
Bentley Continental GT EV: delayed indefinitely
AFAIK those are the only electric performance coupes that were ever publicly discussed by the auto makers. And only one is expected to start under $100K. What a marketplace when Porsche is the cheap option.
Capri280@reddit
What is that one option? I can't recall anything like that and I'm curious
strongmanass@reddit
Maserati Grancabrio Folgore. $207K starting price and about $220K decently optioned. It's an under-rated car IMO. The torque delivery is perfect - a push instead of a punch, accurate steering, it's nimble for its size and weight, has good steering feel for a modern car, and RWD drive mode aka drift mode is very cool. The interior is much better than reviews would have you believe. The leather feels good, the seating position has so much adjustability, and you see the Tony fender bulges of the car out the windshield and it all makes you feel cocooned in a luxurious cockpit.
Maserati failed at three things IMO. $207K is a hard ask for 233 miles in ideal conditions - although to be fair it's similar to the Taycan Turbo S. Second, the infotainment and cheap PRNDL buttons are a letdown (reviews were right about that). And third, they marketed it poorly. A tiny first drive event in Italy last year with small youtubers, and another poorly publicized event at Ice St Moritz. That's it.
TL;DR: driving experience is excellent and worth $200K IMO. Everything else is not...typical Maserati.
Capri280@reddit
I didn't know the Maserati could be used in fwd too, that's an interesting feature.
strongmanass@reddit
I might have been a bit misleading because you can't directly tell the car to go into FWD. But that's the default state in the battery saving mode for efficiency.
AlexWIWA@reddit
It's really dumb because EVs should be cheaper. They're far simpler machines than even a basic engine.
strongmanass@reddit
In the case of performance EVs it's because the brands that make good value for money sports cars like Toyota, Ford, GM are too far behond or focused on other segments. And to be fair to the industry, an electric coupe or convertible is a niche within a niche, so it would be small volume which means high MSRP to make a profit. I don't see something at a Mustang or Supra price range before the next decade. There are rumors that BMW could release a 4 series EV coupe and convertible, but they haven't confirmed it and nobody has seen one out testing.
BetweenFourAndTwenty@reddit
Even the best "driver's" EV on the market (Porsche Taycan) doesn't hold a candle to entry-level ICE sports cars in terms of driving experience.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
There aren't really any drivers EVs (yet), but I'd say the performance minded EVs that do exist compare well to their ICE counterparts.
That Taycan is a far cry from a Miata, but IMO it's a lot more appealing than a Panamera.
Independent-End-2443@reddit
Most EVs go really fast in a straight line, and that's it. When they say Teslas handle well, the really mean "surprisingly well considering how heavy they are, and how assisted the steering is," but there are gas cars out there that are much sportier and more interesting.
No-Necessary7135@reddit
Stomping the pedal to get the neck snap on a Model Y got old after a while for me. Nearly every track I know won't allow EVs and a lot of them are pretty heavy. I can't imagine what recharge would be like at a track day.
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Significant_Play_713@reddit
Some people like their gas cars. What the US really needs is small diesels. The EPA also needs to roll back DEF and DPF mandates. A 2.0L 4 cyl turbo diesel in a small car/wagon could easily get north of 40 mpg. While being extremely reliable.
Matt_WVU@reddit
The problem I have with EV’s is I don’t think the efficiency is there for the prices they’re usually asking.
They’ll advertise 280 miles of range on certain vehicles and honestly it’ll be more like 250, and in the winter it’ll be 150. You pay nearly 40 grand for the car, and surprise the battery dies just outside of the warranty. The battery is $28,000 to replace.
If my main concern is fuel economy, I’m buying a hybrid.
weaponR@reddit
Batteries can last a long time, and don't cost $28k. Also, have you seen car prices these days? $40k is not even the average for ICE vehicles...
dedzip@reddit
They cost like 12k though much more than an engine swap
goofyskatelb@reddit
How much does that engine swap cost when you do it at a dealership and pay for labor? That’s what you need to compare with the $12k.
dedzip@reddit
Not 12k for like a normal American car
goofyskatelb@reddit
Because that’s what you’re quoting with the $12k number. You can get a battery swap done at an independent shop for a lot less, and often times it’s only a single module that failed which doesn’t require a full battery replacement.
Senior-Swordfish-513@reddit
Let in the Chinese cars at the prices they currently are and demand will surge. Cheapest seagull has full self driving.
challengerrt@reddit
I guess my mentality is different than most. I don’t see an “average life span” of a vehicle being 150K miles. Currently have way over that in my daily driver with no issues (needed a started once and it gets its oil changed). Other than that there has been no issues for well over 200K miles.
Interesting on modular battery replacement - I remember that being one of the upcoming designs from Tesla (years ago now) to help cut down on battery cell replacement costs. Didn’t realize it was a more common thing these days.
Batteries, sooner or later, will need to be replaced - it’s essentially part of its designed use (no different than an ICE needing a rebuild). Am I saying every owner of an EV will need to replace a battery cell? No. Because the average EV probably isn’t designed to last any longer than its battery (this isn’t a strike against EVs - as you stated vehicles in general are designed for a calculated life span because people get bored of them, need the newest status model, or whatever reason).
Currently reading some public access info says batteries are designed to last “estimated” 20 years in current EVs with a battery decay of 1.8% per year. Way better than when they first rolled out for sure but (to me) that life is way more detrimental than comparable wear and tear on an ICE. If I have a little blow by on an ICE because I have 250k on it you’re looking at maybe a 5-10% loss in efficiency - compare that to about 36% loss of battery life given the info above. (250k was thrown out - average driver say 12k miles a year for 20 years = ~250K).
Throw in how much more EVs are subject to climate and you’re in for a pretty drastic difference in efficiency. Live in a cold winter climate? Compare the efficiency of an EV with an ICE and you’ll see a huge difference.
Again, I’m not shitting on EVs outright - I’ve said they are great for your average commuter who has a home or ability to charge at home and commutes a moderate distance for work. I just don’t see them overtaking an ICE as the de-facto standard vehicle anytime soon
ScheduleUpstairs1204@reddit
When people buy a car they want it to be convenient and great for 365 days a year, including the occasionally (very long) trouble free road trips in the country side. EV can’t offer that.
Ro-54@reddit
Everyone price gauges you. It’s supposed to be cheaper than fuel and it isn’t.
SSJHoneyBadger@reddit
Batteries are the main reason I'm not interested. I don't want to buy a car that is going to depreciate drastically after 5 years as no one wants to buy a used EV with a half dead battery. I also don't want to need to put $15-30k into a new battery for my used car if I keep it more than 10 years.
goofyskatelb@reddit
Batteries have 8 year 100k mile warranties. They are extremely reliable. You’ll be hard pressed to find batteries with less than 80% capacity even well outside the warranty. You also don’t always need to replace the entire battery, sometimes you only need to replace a single module which is considerably less expensive.
The depreciation is absolutely true and it is a great reason to avoid EVs. Fear of battery failure or repair costs isn’t a very good reason. It’s probably similar to saying you don’t want a diesel because you’re afraid of engine runaway. Yes it can happen but it’s so uncommon that you probably shouldn’t worry too much about it.
twentiesforever@reddit
Have you looked at the price of a used Mach-E battery on ebay? It's $1500. That same fear you have is what people said for years about the Prius. None of it came true..
SSJHoneyBadger@reddit
Not sure I would buy a used EV battery to replace my dying used EV battery
bschmidt25@reddit
We have two EVs. I like them. But there are two huge drawbacks, IMO: insurance costs and depreciation. For what I’m paying to insure out i4 e35 I could insure a G80 M5 (it’s less than $100 more every 6 mos for the M5). And the depreciation is ridiculous. Don’t even get me started. That’s not even talking about the lack of charging infrastructure we’re still facing.
Presice@reddit
EVs make sense in a 2-car household with ability to charge at home. Outside of that, the infrastructure is just not there. The catalyst for short term sales growth would be significantly higher gas prices. Long term EV adoption would be supported by increasing the prevalence of chargers, sub 10-minute charging and longer range.
96mejko@reddit
everyone is making their point about how they dont mind EVs. meanwhile, i like gasoline engines, i like the smell, i like the mechanical aspect of it. there's something interesting about a gas powered vehicle. there's nothing interesting to me about a computer on wheels.
cock________________@reddit
EVs are lacking the vibration, the smell, and the sound. We have a Tesla Model Y and a V8 Sedan — there’s no guessing which one is more fun to drive.
AgileWorldliness82@reddit
They didn’t survey me.
DPJazzy91@reddit
They don't save money. The initial price is too high.
schen72@reddit
I've had my EV for 3 years. I've spent $25 on maintenance. It was for new wiper blades.
greenw40@reddit
How many maintenance do you have to do on brand new cars that aren't EV's? Oil changes? I doubt $100/year is going to be more expensive than the premium you paid for the EV.
schen72@reddit
My EV cost less than my hybrid minivan to buy.
DPJazzy91@reddit
If you're looking for a luxury car at the same price point, it's great. If you wanted to spend less overall compared to a cheap 20k car, it's gonna take a long time to see a return in savings. EVs have far less maintenance, the cost to drive CAN be much lower. A cheap, efficient new car can cost less than 50 in gas every 2 weeks in a short/medium commute. That's less than a grand per year. If it cost you a full thousand per year, which could include oil and brake pads, if done yourself, it could take 10 years to hit 30k in total. What we really need is a 20k EV. I'm excited to see this new truck, the slate. We need our EVs to cost a similar amount to ice cars, so regular consumers start buying them too.
schen72@reddit
You're right, the ICE cars I was thinking of while shopping for my EV were actually more expensive, in the $60k range. My Model Y ended up being $50k. I didn't end up with the EV due to saving money though.
DPJazzy91@reddit
I'm sure the price will come down eventually. I feel like it's artificially high right now. Battery prices are like 10% of what there were 10 years ago. They're better, they have more chemistry options and there are a lot more standard, available parts that can be shared between manufacturers. The stats we need for EVs to take over are: Civic with 300+ mile range, 150+ HP, 15 minutes for 50% charging speed, for 25ish grand. If we can hit those numbers, we will see people flock to them like crazy.
undockeddock@reddit
Yeah. I would need to spend an absolute shitton on gas and maintenance to make up the cost difference between a $30k ICE vehicle and a $55k EV
DPJazzy91@reddit
I still want one lol! Hoping the Slate and other new EVs bring them into my price range.
twentiesforever@reddit
What are you talking about? Price parity has arrived. A Chevy Equinox EV is cheaper than the ICE version.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
The reason Americans are growing less interested is because of the cost. EVs are 10-15k more than the equivalent gas car up front and then you get absolutely wiped out on depreciation compared to most ICE car brands so you take a bath on the back end too. The gas savings are insignificant in view of those costs.
People can barely afford to live these days, most people can't dream of paying 10's of thousands more for an EV, no matter how they feel about them.
thelastlugnut@reddit
TSLA up 5%
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
TSLA stock has been in La La Land since about 2019 though, you’d think there’s roadsters and cybertaxis on every block
antryoo@reddit
I see multiple cybertrucks every day but it’s a small fraction compared to the number of 3’s and y’s I see every day. model 3 and model y are some of the most common cars in my area. I regularly am within visual range of at least 10 teslas while driving mine on my way to/from work
It’s very common for me to see 5+ model y’s in the same color as mine while driving just by looking in my mirrors
That1one1dude1@reddit
You in California?
AbbysHubby@reddit
I’m not I’m actually in a fairly small town and we have two cyber trucks and tens of other teslas 🤷
Oddjob64@reddit
Weird because my last trip to LA I didn’t see a ton of Tesla at all. One falling apart Uber when I first got there and then a handful on the road. There were not a ton of EV’s in general. Mostly hybrid. It was like the opposite of what the internet would have me believe.
yetiflask@reddit
I've been visiting LA for years, and you're right. You hardly see many Teslas. I don't instantly recognize other EVs, so can't speak to their numbers, but I never witness what the internet says that every other car is like a TESLA.
I went from Diamond Bar to LAX (I think 40 miles of highway?) and saw 7 Teslas on my last visit. I was litereally counting.
Oddjob64@reddit
I work for one of the Detroit 3, so I’m always scoping out the competition in other places. I actually see more pure EV’s in my wealthy Detroit Suburb than I did in LA for a week. I think that highlights price as a big factor. The “affordable” ones are kind of crap and still overpriced compared to similar gas or hybrid options while the form factor that would actually sell is priced out of reach for the common purchaser.
antryoo@reddit
Yea, California. One of the largest car markets in the USA. Also one of the best states to have an ev from a public charging infrastructure standpoint.
billythygoat@reddit
Aren't there only \~4000 cybertrucks sold as of a few weeks ago?
antryoo@reddit
A little under 12,000 were sold in 2024 from what I can find online. Back in March they recalled all cybertrucks and the number reported was 46,096
Threedawg@reddit
Wait, 46,000 total? They have been out for nearly 18 months. Major ICE Pickups sold have been 10x that in the same time frame.
Oddjob64@reddit
I wonder if that number includes the unsold ones sitting in lots.
https://www.autoblog.com/news/surplus-teslas-flood-parking-lot-in-detroit
Apparently there is a similar lot on the West side of Michigan as well. Maybe more across the country.
antryoo@reddit
Yea it’s a niche vehicle. Range sucks, price sucks, looks are terrible
I’m surprised they sold that many tbh
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
More than 50 000 at this point.
verysketchyreply@reddit
For most Americans, the battery technology and charging infrastructure is not there. The reliance of at-home charging isn't practical for most. Range anxiety. Average car prices, and average age of cars on the road today. I think if you blame the EV tax alone, that is a pretty stupid and politically driven argument. There are way too many other factors. Overall, the US energy grid simply cannot support widespread EV adoption, in some locations there are strains and that has been realized during peak load times and natural disaster scenarios. There are ideas to alleviate this, but we need more energy generation in the long run.
twentiesforever@reddit
"US energy grid simply cannot support widespread EV adoption" - Yea you don't have to worry about this at all. There are highly paid people who's job is to do so. Consume as you do and the grid will take care of itself bc it is market driven and managed by ISOs. My utility is literally giving away cash when you buy an EV bc they want you hooked for life.
verysketchyreply@reddit
I work in the industry. These are my 2 cents. Yeah, the distribution side of energy is in the business of making back what the generation and more so transmission groups are spending. Lots of incentives out there on the residential consumer side to get people using power, free EV chargers and buying back solar power energy in some cases. For the reasons you pointed out. It's a different game when you talk about public charging infrastructure and big load commercial usage. EV adoption isn't the leading factor these days, it's more so the giant AI data centers we will see popping up in the next year or two, but the ebbs and flows in the market can change that and the energy sector doesn't have the ability to respond swiftly. So whatever the driving factor is over the next 15 years we simply need more power. More nuclear. We do not need Tesla and Google on the energy grid, which is a real possibility being lobbied by big tech. If I am worried about anything, it would be that lol
ConsistentRegister20@reddit
Survey paid for by the fossil fuel and automotive industry. shocking conclusion. Clowns believe this?
Ab47203@reddit
Or MAYBE it's because they're talking about removal of the tax credit for EVs that made them price competitive.
Remarkable_Ad5011@reddit
Ya don’t say!? I work at a dealership in the Midwest and the one EV we sell will sit for MONTHS without a solid even cracking to door to consider purchasing. People point to it, “what is that”? Me: “That’s our EV model”. Them: “oh, nevermind, I don’t want one of those”!
wip30ut@reddit
it's the PRICE stupid! And yes, there are ways to manufacture EVs much cheaper, like half the price. But importing vehicles from China will undercut domestic manufacturers. We're walling off our economy so US firms can have time to develop & implement cutting-edge tech at a price they can recoup their investment. But it comes at a steep cost for consumers.
cartwheel_123@reddit
Or just gouge american consumers who have few choices.
Whoevenareyou1738@reddit
What makes an EV cool is the idea of coming home and charging it overnight. If I have to park my car at a gas pump for 30 minutes. Then what's the point. Might as well get a gas car.
PhilosopherChemical1@reddit
30min charge times is sooo 2020. Current model cars have charge times that are under 10 min. Byd is now under 5 mins. It will only get better.
Whoevenareyou1738@reddit
That's good
Patient_Move_2585@reddit
EV’s today are still “novelty niche” vehicles for driver households with higher disposable incomes. After having owned one for a number of years I’ve noticed shoddy workmanship for what I paid. With depreciation, higher insurance, gas prices coming down, and crazy elderly progressives attacking EVs, “break even” doesn’t occur as expected. IMO, few who purchase one add a second to their household.
caterham09@reddit
This was obviously going to happen regardless of how you view EV's
The target demographic more or less already has one and you're only going to be able to convert so many people per year. It was always going to plateau at a certain point.
Ran4@reddit
That's certainly not the case. Most people don't go out buying cars every few years.
WyoGuy2@reddit
It’s not necessarily going to plateau. I know multiple people who are older and more conservative who thought EVs were a gimmick 10 years ago and now they think they’re awesome. One got a lightning….
The big issue is that prices aren’t coming down like they need to. Nobody wants to pay $50k+ for a small SUV they could get a comparable gas model of for $30k.
PhilosopherChemical1@reddit
I was skeptical about EVs until I leased one. I actually leased one of the Worst EVs, the Subaru Solterra. $250 a month, 0 down. It's essentially a free lease since I was going to burn that in gas for commuting. I'm a Car guy, I love my V10, my fiata ect. I will NEVER buy another gas car again (except maybe a lotus evora). The instant torque, power delivery, no maintenance..... the convenience of it all is just hard to describe until you own one. I pay $0.02/kwh during the night to charge the solterra. If I were to charge 0 to 100% (200mile range) it would cost me less than $2. I'm now looking for a used lucid air touring. They are now reasonably priced 40-60k. If demand slows prices may go up. Regardless, 450mile range and 600hp is enough for my needs. Anyone who says they need more than that is a liar.
twentiesforever@reddit
Butts in seats sell EVs. When people drive them, they understand. They love the silence, the torque, the lack of vibration. If more test drives were offered, more sales would happen.
twentiesforever@reddit
skeptics have been saying that for years. Last year 1.3 million EVs were sold in the US. that number will grow even more over time.
testthrowawayzz@reddit
I feel like the industry needs to start moving into "boring" electric cars instead of continuing on the quirky/unique/tech demo electric cars to entice more people to buy one.
We've already seen this happening in the past (and now) with interest in hybrid cars growing once they start showing up in normal looking cars compared to before when it was limited to quirky/unique models lie Prius and (early) Insight/CR-Z
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
It also doesn’t help that it’s a $10,000 increase to get the same performance out of a BEV. Because manufacturers won’t take the leap, and keep making them in low volumes. If they wont increase their economies of scale, the prices won’t come down, and people won’t buy them, and so forth and so on.
start3ch@reddit
There are also hardly any entry level EVs. Automakers see them as a premium option, that must have premium features and a premium price to match
RoboModeTrip@reddit
Blame the government for not allowing competition.
caterham09@reddit
It's because the base cost of the battery pack is so high. If you make a $30,000 EV the margins are going to be nonexistent. You can't just magically make the batteries cost less.
If you use smaller batteries then you are sacrificing on range and then it's going to sell like shit. I.e. Nissan Leaf.
There are exceptions but this is kind of the game they have to play.
start3ch@reddit
Batteries in 2024 have dramatically dropped in price. Globally it’s $115/kwh, when it was $165/kwh in 2020, and $266/kwh in 2017.
If chevy was able to sell the bolt for $36k in 2017 with a 60kwh battery, that same car should be $9k cheaper today purely due to savings in battery costs.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Good news, the Bolt was $26k at the end of its run, so that tracks.
caterham09@reddit
That may be true, but you also can't design a car in a year. If batteries dropped in price then you'll have to wait for the development cycle to complete on a more economical car.
You're example with the bolt also doesn't factor in the rapid inflation since 2017 which would probably make up all the cost savings from the battery pack (and then some).
start3ch@reddit
Oh yea, inflation is 30% since 2017. But the battery is becoming a much smaller portion of that cost. Pretty soon a battery + motor will cost the same as an engine + transmission
cloud_cutout@reddit
Just like ICE powered car ownership plateaued when their “target demographic” all bought one…
Oh wait, no, we made policy decisions that helped expand fossil fuel infrastructure leading to them becoming ever more popular. We could have done the same thing with charging infrastructure….
-SUBW00FER-@reddit
Because most people aren’t familiar with EVs and never drove one let alone sat in one.
Looking at consumer reports Owner satisfaction by brand. The top 3 are Rivian, BMW, and Tesla in that order.
I am willing to bet a vast majority of the respondents saying they aren’t considering an EV aren’t familiar with it so they say they aren’t interested. Those that have switched loved their cars.
aftonone@reddit
Yeah because I don’t hate myself
banned_from_r_cars@reddit
Says the guy driving a Cobalt.
CompositeArmor@reddit
As opposed to a electrical fire on wheels?
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
The comments on this thread are solid boomer uncle level misinformation. We've seen this same article every year for the last decade, but EV sales, and EVs as a percentage of the new car market keep going up, year after year.
Sinful_Old_Monk@reddit
Let the Chinese EV’s into our country and let’s see if they don’t want EV’s or if it’s more accurate to say they don’t want expensive EV’s. Fake free market lovers would hate this though since it means our companies will have competition and whine about how it’s not real competition since they have cheap labor
Own_Pass_926@reddit
Paid $26.5 for mine with the tax credit
metallicadefender@reddit
Im very interested in not paying for gas.
Bradymyhero@reddit
Hope you enjoy paying for depreciation
Vazhox@reddit
Oh, it has always been no interest. Media just makes it seem like there is interest
twentiesforever@reddit
Last year over 1 million EVs were sold. No interest huh?
Captain_Inept@reddit
In my anecdotal experience of myself, and also talking with friends, it’s not that none of us want to buy an EV (because we all do). It’s the fact that if you don’t own a home, where you can reliably charge it nightly, it’s a massive pain in the ass to live with. No one wants to go sit at a charger (or can) for an extended period of time. I’m betting we just need to drastically improve EV infrastructure, or charging & battery tech, before it gains traction with the non home-owning crowd.
twentiesforever@reddit
Home charging is still a must I agree. Other countries have solved home charging for all kinds of home types but in the US, we don't have the will. It's that simple.
ScenicPineapple@reddit
Electric cars are not a realistic option for many of us. Too expensive, limited range, limited charging stations, and difficult to repair.
Until they can get to the level of other countries with transportation, the US will always be behind and a gas vehicle dominated country.
twentiesforever@reddit
EVs have reached price parity with their gas counterparts. Heck, the Chevy Equinox is cheaper than the ICE version. Difficult to Repair? Is it bc you are just not knowledgeable of how they work? Plus, federal law required battery warranties to be 10 years+. We are just starting to see EVs come off battery warranties.
UnmakingTheBan2022@reddit
Good!!!
OctopusSucker@reddit
I had one. Sucked.
andyb521740@reddit
They are still too expensive
undockeddock@reddit
Bingo. I would love an EV equivalent of my small crossover. But my current vehicle was $30k. The EV equivalent would be $50k
ProvidenceByGaslight@reddit
I am growing less interested in buying anything
dedzip@reddit
real man I can’t do this shit anymore I don’t ever want a car payment I don’t think I want anything newer than like 2004
clydesdale6969@reddit
Ha. I could not get less interested in an electric vehicle.
NeatlyCritical@reddit
If we get to 50o to 700 mile a charge solid states that are affordable then it would be criminal not to buy ev, but until then and with fascist government making it difficult it becomes a problematic economic choice in a world where most of the planet is about to lose everything.
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Lord_Ka1n@reddit
Jesus, calm down.
Everyilm42900@reddit
I have been saying this for a long time. But nah, aim just a climate change denier 🙄
schen72@reddit
When I bought my EV I didn't care at about cost savings. It's fast, techy, and has virtually no maintenance. I do have home charging so it's very convenient.
Relative-Message-706@reddit
I can pretty much promise you that if homes were more affordable and younger generations could actually get into them, electric cars would be more popular in the United States. EV's are amazing when you have your own home that you can charge at and pay residential electric rates. When you've got an apartment lease and you're potentially moving every 6-months to a year with no reliable consistent places to charge, it becomes a difficult sell.
nonaveris@reddit
Make something people want to buy at a price they can afford.
Mytre-@reddit
An EV with 300 EPA miles range which might be in the high end range you can get ( i know some claim 400 but those are 90 k to 100k cars). in a country where commutes are long as hell, home ownership in young people is not that much and the price of is high, is problematic.
Like I love EV's they have a fun factor and all of that for the normal driver (the acceleration never gets old plus silence ). But for the price of a base EV I was able to get my current car in its highest trim with all the features I liked and had enough money left to pay for a lot of gas.... and I dont have to deal with 300 miles range instead about 600 on average.
I would have loved if at least the higher trim of EV's provided more range maybe it would have made more sense but all the high trims with all the nice features for long drive (memory seats, heated and cooled seats, hud ,etc ) have a range of 250 or so miles which for al ong trip makes you anxious.
But I guess the most important point is house ownership, I can see a small family having 1 EV and 1 ICE or hybrid car . But you have to own a house and have the charging hardware installed, hell I have a family member who owns and ev and loves it but uses the travel charger which takes 2 days to cahrge it at home because the installation at home was like 3k plus a monthly fee like 40$ (florida power company). It took a year to find out you could have a 3rd party installer which btw we always thought it was illegal or at least had some hurdles but it seems to be legal but the langauge used by FPL indicated it might had not been? . Anyway you still need to spend 3k to install the required charger for at least a faster charge and easy to at least get about a full charge overnight which sounds nice but the range issue with the long commutes really after a year of dealing with long charge times at home due to what I said pretty much made my family there to not consider an EV in the future, instead they are looking into hybrids like my car since they were just floored when I told them I have a 600 mile range which means I can do a full weekend road trip and still have enough gas left after to at least get me to my job if need to.
A really long write to just say price + range and creature comforts compared to hybrids and ice drives people away from it in a country where the commute is really stupid long and charging infrastructure albeit not bad makes it close in price to charge an EV to an ice for the same miles unless you have a Home with a garage or parking space in front that allows you to have a charger, something which having one right now on the US has been to say the least really difficult and some power companies use really strange language when selling their monthly fee based charging solution at home which might make people think third party chargers at home is not possible.
Vwburg@reddit
Perhaps it’s not less people interested, it’s just that many people who were interested already have an EV.
daxelkurtz@reddit
~~growing less interested~~ depreciating
okron1k@reddit
i really think the sweet spot is a plug in hybrid. my crv hybrid is my first experience with a hybrid vehicle and i LOVE how it solves the start / stop annoyance for me. the a/c works when the engine is off. the car goes immediately when i want it to, no delay waiting for the engine to start.
biryebread@reddit
I would love an EV but I can't charge at home (rent) and public charging infrastructure is ass, not to mention its just as expensive to charge a car at a public fast charger as it is to fill one up with gas.
Mishka_1994@reddit
I had to wait 40 mins one time for my friend to charge his stupid ass Tesla. Literally made 5 people go out of our way to find the stupid charging station and wait there. Yeah i have absolutely no desire for a Tesla now. Plus Musk is a moron and well thats his brand.
I like some EV brands like Rivian look cool but Im not willing to drop that money.
StandupJetskier@reddit
You need a driveway and dedicated power source. Apartment dwellers, even affluent ones, are going to be hard pressed for this. It's a second car for most of suburbia at most
woolcoat@reddit
I’m holding off until Chinese EVs are allowed in the U.S. (I’m assuming with American partners in the form of joint ventures).
___REDWOOD___@reddit
It isn’t the answer to the problem.
Neon570@reddit
Easy.
Cost.
I don't want a 130k cadallic ev.
I don't want a 100k f150 lightning.
Fuck tesla in general (fun fact, they won't even sell you parts so you can do your own repairs)
I live in an apartment with no where to charge anything.
I'll stick to by clapped out vehicles for 5k or under
stinger_02in@reddit
That’s parts part is BS
Neon570@reddit
Cool story
My statement still stands
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
I live in an apartment also without easy access to charging, and while some of the payments on leases are crazy, it would just be too much of a hassle to plan to go to an empty parking lot and charge my car for an hour every few days.
Neon570@reddit
I still think EVs have there time and place for sure but for 90% of America, no thanks
Free_Range_Gamer@reddit
My only gripe with EVs in the US is that damn near every one is an SUV! I know that SUVs sell but damn. Some more sedan or hatchback options would be great.
ChiefAoki@reddit
From the article:
Driving/owning an EV requires the ability to plan, most Americans don't even know what they're eating for dinner. Running out of gas on a regular ICE vehicle is a minor time penalty to hitch a ride or hike to a gas station with a jerry can, the same can't be said for EVs. And no, building more superchargers aren't going to fix this for the same reason why people still run out of gas despite having a gas station every 20 mile or so.
AmericanExcellence@reddit
what is this odd fantasy about running out of gas being a widespread occurrence?
ChiefAoki@reddit
Not much of a fantasy in my neck of the woods and other places I've lived in, filling up a full tank is out of reach for most folks out here. Most folks here fuel up $20 at a time and keep on driving for another 30-40 miles when the fuel light comes on. I've lived in both rural and urban America and that's just the reality out here.
DoublePostedBroski@reddit
I’m growing less interested in paying $95,000 for an electric vehicle.
sprockets22@reddit
Yea I live in large city, definitely not getting 400+ chargers for every unit. We have copper thieves as it is. Cables would be a rats nest of a mess. I definitely don’t see the landlord or gov shelling out that kind of cash or even maintaining them when they do get damaged
Hostificus@reddit
I’d love one, but the amount of bullshit DRM and Rent Seeking that goes on behind them, plus they’re all soy coded and cost just as much as their ICE equivalents with half the capacity.
RoboModeTrip@reddit
I'd be more interested if our government allowed BYD and other chinese EVs in. Don't care for our options now.
FlopShanoobie@reddit
Thank Elon for that.
BaseballNRockAndRoll@reddit
China thanks you!
LuLuCheng@reddit
Why are corporations shocked when people don't want to buy their shit when they've colluded so extensively amongst each other to price out and alienate a majority of their planned consumers.
NJ_casanova@reddit
Americans that "Like cars".
SuperDuperSkateCrew@reddit
For me personally I’d love an electric car but three things prevent me from. 1) There too fuckin expensive 2) I don’t own a home so charging becomes a minor, but real, inconvenience and 3) the range on them just aren’t practical for my use, I live in CA and commute relatively far for work and it’s be pushing right up to the limit of most EV’s ranges.
blunted09@reddit
I bet if they jack up the price even more, and make sure to slap a huge screen to hide all the cheap components everywhere they will do great!
johngalt504@reddit
If they get solid state batteries or batteries that consistently get 350+ mile range in real world conditions that doesn't cost a small fortune I'd be all over it. Right now, my whole issue is range.
stop_whining_dammit@reddit
b
Zestydrycleaner@reddit
Most cars today should be hybrid
Green_Day4802@reddit
I’m shocked.
andygchicago@reddit
For me it's simple: I'm only shopping new cars, and the price gap between an EV and an ICE vehicle, even when factoring in fuel and maintenance savings, makes the overall cost of ownership much more. And factor in resale and it's just not a smart decision. This despite owning my own home with solar electricity.
Caca_Face420@reddit
When I say this on this sub I get downvoted; but it’s true
SteveTheBluesman@reddit
I want a 500 mi battery that charges overnight from a wall socket. Until then, I consider EV's a green banana. Not ready yet.
JustACarNut77@reddit
I dislike EVs mostly cause I travel all over the DMV sometimes 300+ miles a day. No EV can do it without a charge. Yes they claim 300 miles but it doesn't happen. At least with gas I can easily do 400+ miles to a tank and if need be almost anywhere is a quick 10 minute stop and I'm on my way again.
mrnikkoli@reddit
We were told that electric vehicles were simpler machines that took less labor to build, yet after all these years of R&D and dollars of investment later nearly every EV costs more than its internal combustion engine equivalent. Most EVs seem to be a vessel to sell premium priced vehicles; there are very few that are even attempting to be the type of car that a middle class person would buy.
Most EVs look weird compared to regular cars and are crammed with price inflating gadgets and tech even at the lowest trims as if they're being marketed toward techies instead of the average car buyer.
Few of them can match the range of their ICE equivalents and recharging infrastructure and technology still feels like it's not a priority.
I want an EV, but I can't figure out why the hell I would actually buy one.
lunamypet@reddit
I stopped driving until I can afford an electric car.
bkussow@reddit
I am in the market for a new car and specifically waited till 2025 to buy because more EVs were supposed to be out at a more reasonable price. Problem is, they aren't reasonably priced. The cheapest possible option (Nissan Leaf) STARTS at $30k. That's base model none of the dealer fees and costs associated (granted I guess you can get a tax break on them still).
Looking around, the actual one I want is $60k new (and I have to drive 4 hours to get it).
We already pay $450/mo. on my wife's car. I am not going to be willing to pay $1500/month in car payments just to get an EV.
Going to be buying ICE again. Maybe in a few years they can deliver EVs at a better price.
Latios19@reddit
I commented that this was going to happen a few months ago over here and every EV fan attacked me saying “oh no, EVs are the future. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’ve never owned an EV so you don’t know what you’re saying blablabla”
Not to throw it in their face, but reality is hitting!
cknkatsu@reddit
I’m still interested!
Mackinnon29E@reddit
For me it would be the lessened traveling utility and cost to replace a battery pack post warranty. Maybe one would be ok for around town, but hybrid seems like a better compromise.
rontonsoup__@reddit
I’m one of the few that don’t care if it’s electric, gas or hybrid. The reason I don’t drive one is because of range anxiety. When the technology can reliably get 400-450 miles on a single charge, like my current gas car gets on a single tank, then I’ll consider.
ls7eveen@reddit
And yet sales keep increasing
DeLoreanAirlines@reddit
They’ll probably end up like CFL’s. A bridge technology until something completely game changing comes out.
DisastrousAnt4454@reddit
This trend will continue until the process of charging an EV is perfected. That will either continue to be an ultra slow burn, or some sort of economic crisis - like absurdly high oil prices - propels that process forward.
DisastrousAnt4454@reddit
This trend will continue until the process of charging an EV is perfected. That will either continue to be an ultra slow burn, or some sort of economic crisis - like absurdly high oil prices - propels that process forward.
Brno_Mrmi@reddit
Who would have thought that a complex, harder to maintain, more expensive powertrain that requires adapting your home to charge it would be less interesting to the middle class?? What a surprise!!!
TheDirtDude117@reddit
I was interested when the second hand market got us good EVs under $20k for the savings. The tax burden went up on EVs though and the servicing of them has turned even worse for the most part.
I imagine Tesla's reputation in the toilet doesn't help either
TheDirtDude117@reddit
I was interested when the second hand market got us good EVs under $20k for the savings. The tax burden went up on EVs though and the servicing of them has turned even worse for the most part.
I imagine Tesla's reputation in the toilet doesn't help either
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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StrongOnline007@reddit
The government is trying to sabotage the industry. So yeah — even as someone who wants an EV, I'm not going to spend $50K on something the government is trying to kill. If we were supporting EVs like Europe or China I'd likely already own an Ioniq 5 N
Confirmed_AM_EGINEER@reddit
I live in PA, out gas tax is .57 per gallon. I drive a 2018 Chevy Cruze diesel manual. But that car gets 50 mpg so maybe let's call that cheating. I also have a company car for work I drive a lot. It's a 2022 Honda accord. It regularly gets tanks of gas that exceed 45mpg but even then let's just call the fuel economy at 38mpg.
So if I drive that accord an average 12,000 miles a year I would consume 316 gallons of gas and that would pay PA $180 in gas tax. Okay, hey, that makes it seem pretty reasonable, only a $20 difference.
The problem is that's not what I actually drive. I drive a 2018 Chevy Cruze Diesel Manual Sedan. I get 50mpg or more out of every tank of fuel I put in that car. I also only drive it about 6000 miles a year because of my company car and my wife's bolt. We pretty much only use the Cruze on road trips where the bolt doesn't make sense.
Now let's run those numbers. 50mpg. 6000 miles. 120 gallons. $68.4, hell, let's round up. $69, nice.
Now I don't know about you but I did pass 3rd grade math. So I know that I actually pay 2.9 times less in tax with my gas (technically diesel) car than I would with my wifes bolt EUV. Now how is that fair?
It's not and it's not supposed to be. It is meant to deter EV buyers. And we aren't even talking about the $250 federal tax that they are looking to stack on top of this. Once the total number becomes $450 then it just makes no sense at all.
But, there is a simple solution. Since I still have to take in my EV for annual inspections, an inspection that costs the same as a gas car even though they just don't do the emissions portion on the EV's, I have to give them my odometer reading anyway so why not just subtract last year's odometer reading from this year's odometer reading? If we did that we could create an "EV milage tax" or whatever. I concede EV's generally weigh more than a gas car so a slightly higher tax is something I would understand.
Let's take the Accord for example. In that example the Accord pays $0.015 per mile in gas tax. Let's pull a number right out of my ass and say that EV's on average weigh 30% more than gas cars and therefore should pay a 30% higher tax. Okay, that means my "EV milage tax" should be $0.0195 per mile. So now when I take my car in for the annual inspection they pull my reading from this year and last, give me the difference and multiply it by 0.0195. easy. This means the average EV that drives an average 12,000 miles a year would pay $234 a year in tax.
WOW! That number is bigger than the other one! But it is fair. It is an actually fair system that actually cares to be fair. And really it should have specific rates for specific weight classes of vehicle, but I digress.
These EV taxes plus the cancellation of all EV tax credits are purely meant to slow the growth of the ev segment. That is their only purpose.
Quake_Guy@reddit
Besides charging infrastructure this is the big issue in the US compared to the rest of the world.
Americans like big ass vehicles and SUV/trucks have worse aerodynamics than sedans. Plus we typically drive further than anywhere else. Combined this means we need giant batteries that cost far more than an ICE powertrain.
Word_Underscore@reddit
I love cars. I've owned near 20 in about 25 years of driving. I've wasted so much money. I've never wanted an electric car.
CandidArmavillain@reddit
I'm certainly uninterested. There are only a handful of appealing options and they're all pretty expensive and the fact that I don't own a home makes it incredibly impractical.
RicardoPanini@reddit
I've always thought the hard push for EVs was too big of a jump and plug in hybrids should have come first. For many, ownership of an EV would require a home and installation of a charging port as that would be the primary charge point. I also think for many people who can only have one vehicle, would not choose an EV.
nopester24@reddit
gasp! i definitely did not see this one coming
kramertheserval@reddit
we needed a study to know this?
ITSHOBBSMA@reddit
Why would I buy an electric car when our electric grid sucks, There is still range anxiety, I have to wait 30 mins to 1 hour + to charge a car, and my insurance will increase three or four fold. Also, some states charge road tax when you drive an electric car. The only way to make them attractive is $15K or less which is basically impossible.
Choice_Student4910@reddit
I had a bit of bias against EVs mostly because it didn’t fit practically into my lifestyle. Range anxiety mostly.
Now that I work from home and live in a desirable tourist city, my shorter drives on fun weekend excursions makes owning and living with an EV easy and cheap. Home charging is a must.
chaiteataichi_@reddit
This was my take. It covers 99.9% of my travel without needed to charge in public, and if i ever do a 4+ hour road trip, I got an EV that charges fast
german-car-guy@reddit
I would want to like EV's. But what stops me from buying one is that I live in NYC where it's pita to find a fast charging without having to wait a shitton of time before every other uber driver charges. Price: The EV's are pricey and the same car that comes as EV is way pricier than gas. Coming back to charger I have to install fast charger than will cost me a dime and what if I want to get gas car after? The charger will be collecting dust in my driveway. Last but not least is depreciation. Yes they get a good lease deals can't argue, but what if I drive way more than lease lets me? What if I dont want to lease one but own? I will have to face a hardest depreciation. Last news were about annual tax for EV's which also doesnt make any more sense to buy one bc you're really not saving anything but paying way more at the end of ownership.
Available_Win5204@reddit
It is a combination of half-baked EVs being true garbage which aren't worth their MSRP, and the media convincing people to hate Tesla, the best EV company on the planet.
Yes, I know your blood pressure just shot through the roof. But Elon! Nazi salute! Chinese EVs!
Are you done? Take a cruise through r/model3 or r/modely and count how many "best car I've ever owned" posts there are. Note all of the "I used to hate EVs now I'm never going back" posts. The reality is that most Americans **still** have not experienced an actual good EV. Their opinion is built on rumors and misinformation.
Even if the savings are 0, a well-designed EV as a daily driver is a much more pleasurable experience than the equivalent ICE car.
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