Why does Subaru have such a hardon fir boxer engines?
Posted by Big_Flan_4492@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 105 comments
I never understood why. They put the boxer engine in economy cars and they never really made a true 'sports car'. They helped develop the BRZ but thats only recently, they aren't like other automakers that have a long history of sports cars. They also have a history of cost cutting their boxer designs which makes the unreliable and fragile
Mazda liked the rotary engine but they didn't put that in all of their cars.
abecker1313@reddit
Marketing. They get to claim designed from ground up for lower center of gravity and better handling and shame parents who wouldn't tick this box for the vehicle they'd give to their kids, because safety and shame.
RespectCommon7019@reddit
Subaru’s all in on boxer engines mostly for packaging and balance. The flat design keeps the center of gravity low, which helps with stability, especially paired with AWD. Makes sense for their rally roots and why they lean into it for everything from the WRX to a Forester. But yeah reliability ain’t what it used to be, older EJ engines were cool but notorious for head gasket drama 💀. They kinda just stuck with it as their thing
grabsomeplates@reddit
The size and shape of a boxer engine means they can package it easily. It is low, short, and allows for a symmetrical AWD system when compared to an I-4 AWD car with a transversely mounted engine.
I'm not a fan because I hate the sound of an unequal length header, and I don't find Subarus especially thrilling at all, but it isn't fair to compare it to a Wankel engine, which is truly flawed.
kljaja998@reddit
Are you aware of the sport of WRC?
kilertree@reddit
A true sports cars are supposed to be a 2 seaters
KanterBama@reddit
A true sports car is on its own chassis… it just so happens that most car manufacturers only make one-off chassis for two door cars lol.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Using a unique chassis as the definition of a sports car means the G-Wagen and Ineos Grenadier are included... 😂
TheRealPizza@reddit
Obviously a chassis with an emphasis on sportiness. A Gemera is more of a sports car than a 2 series, even if it has 2 more seats.
brendonts@reddit
2 seats is such a specific box to draw around cars that are otherwise purely performance built machines. Take the GR Yaris for example, besides the more bespoke chassis it makes the stock gr86 feel casual.
SEGARE1@reddit
Correct, and only having 2 doesn't necessarily make it a sports car.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
I mean they haven't made anything outside of the Subaru Impreza, and even then those cars are far different from their street models. Touring cars and TCR are much closer to the road going variants
Chippy569@reddit
Subaru has raced a WRX in nurburgring 24H a couple years in a row now. There is a BRZ/GT86 spec series. What more do you want? Lol.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
Saying that the WRX competes in the 24 Nurburgring isnt really saying much lol, that WRX race car is heavily modified from the street car, its the same with the JGTC cars. The spec series is sponsored and led by Toyota not Subaru lol.
That doesn't really answer my question though because they are putting the engine in economy cars lol
stakoverflo@reddit
That's true of every single race car.
Mazda isn't putting rotaries in anything anymore
Chippy569@reddit
Unfortunately the Wankel, needing oil injection, is really hard to meet emissions. Mazda keeps trying and keeps saying it's coming back, but...
dont-YOLO-ragequit@reddit
Just because they don't compete where you respect it doesn't mean it's not valid to those million dollar companies trying to beat other millions dollar companies. Putting Lols everywhere just to not acknowledge a point doesn't make your point any valid either.
The answer is that at the time in the 70s Subaru saw the benefits of the boxer engine and the symmetrical all wheel drive which they perfected for more than 50 years. They don't need to build and introduce an inline 4 if they have an engine that has been paid for decades ago and has been perfected to make the same or better power as inline 4s.
There is nothing less "Sporty" (or whatever your lolzz were about) about the engine landing in crossovers or economy cars. It means the same engine can be built smaller, cheaper or bigger and more durable to power more car ( which means no need to design an other engine from the ground up again unlike Mazda's rotary that immediately failed as a pick up). Meanwhile Subaru still make more billions and get more feedback to make that engine better.
shreddedsharpcheddar@reddit
the other primary benefit is no balancing shaft. the drawback being two separate heads and timing components being far away from each other
Chippy569@reddit
You can make an i4 without a balance shaft, and plenty of modern brands do, though obviously this leads to noticeable vibration.
shreddedsharpcheddar@reddit
true, but typically the most revered inline 4s use shafts. EA888, 1.8t, B series and K series, and some others. so for a reliable high performance engine, i personally think its a pro
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They made the SVX/Alcyone with a flat-6 in '92, as well as its predecessor the XT Turbo depending on how far you want to stretch the definition of sports car
Bonerchill@reddit
A car competing in sport doesn’t make it a sports car, it makes it a race car.
Fart_Leviathan@reddit
Subaru of course have made sports cars (Alcyone, BRZ, SVX), but if being used as a racecar in WRC makes something a sportscar, then I really have to ask whether you consider the Ford Fiesta, Hyundai i20, Citroen Xsara and Skoda Octavia all sportscars? And that's without venturing into the weirder side of WRC cars which include everything from the Jeep Wagoneer to the Trabant.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Is that the one where Samir breaks the car (yes, I know it's an Mitsubishi Evo X in that video)?
Human_Contribution56@reddit
That's just crazy people flying thru the woods with a hostage that has to read shorthand while praying not to die. 🤣
Raving_107@reddit
It's what makes a Subaru, a Subaru.
FictionalContext@reddit
90's adventure seeking lesbians?
t001_t1m3@reddit
My head gasket blew, the smoke clouds match my vape clouds! We're meant to be together :D
MaybeAlice1@reddit
They have packaging reasons for it. Because they’re AWD and longitudinal mounted engine, they wanted as short a crank as possible to keep the weight balance where it needs to be.
Compare that with something like the Skylines where the front differential is bolted to the side of the engine and the driveshaft goes through the oil pan.
DuLeague361@reddit
or like audi hanging the whole engine in front of the axle
gIOonNii@reddit
Which is the exact same thing Subaru does.
DuLeague361@reddit
true but their engine is 2 cylinders long. vs audi being 3-4 cylinders long
Sierra_463@reddit
Except the Skyline's solution makes more sense packaging-wise. Even the rallycross/gymkhana Imprezas are using that layout because it puts the weight further back.
bikedork5000@reddit
When you do 40 years of R&D on a given technology, you tend to stick with it.
Intelligent-Big-6104@reddit
Simple. Low center of gravity gives them a leg up on the competition. Just like mazda is known for having all their cars feel sporty and fun to drive. Car companies want this connected to the road feel yet isolation and smoothness at the same time. Mazda puts extra effort into it. Subaru designed a motor that does it automatically for every car the engine goes into.
I'm not a fan, but many are.
Sweet-Gushin-Gilfs@reddit
Bruh. The STi? The car made from their sports racing pedigree from WRC? Are you 12? Subaru has a rich history of racing and sports cars. Maybe not as much as the bigger manufacturers, but Subaru is insane for the size of the company.
As for boxers, lower CoG, packaging, and it pairs well with their AWD system. That’s why.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
Im not 12. The STI/WRX is the only "sports car" they made, as long as Ive been alive. There is the BRZ which is recent and even with that it was really the 2nd iteration of the AE86, not really anything Subaru previously made.
It still weird why Subaru is shoving boxer engines which benefit sports cars in CUVs and economy cars. They aren't like Mazda where they are focusing on driving dynamics because the cars handling aren't anything to write home about except for the BRZ.
Can't see why or how a Subaru Forester needs a low center of gravity lol
Drzhivago138@reddit
That's not a "how" question, but to answer the why, having a lower CoG means the roof can be taller (more headroom) without feeling as top-heavy as competing models.
AmericanExcellence@reddit
a lot of people in this thread have already told you why the boxer is the perfect engine for something like the forester, but i'm not sure anyone has emphasized that's it's because of the entire totality of subaru's approach to their integrated awd system.
so low center of gravity is nice for something like a wrx, (and btw it's also nice for every car regardless of how "sporty" that car is). but that's not the only reason they use flat 4 engines.
they're also super short. i mean like silly short. so you can hang the entire engine in front of the front axle, and get the benefit of a supremely elegant and minimal awd drivetrain, while still taking the minimum hit possible in terms of weight distribution and - like people have emphasized - packaging.
that packaging advantage, among its many advantages, makes room for superior frontal crash protection. subaru sells itself (justifiably) as an extremely safety-focused brand. a short engine helps with that.
there's a whole bunch of other reasons, but long and short it's because it's the ideal engine for the whole of what subaru sells itself as.
jawknee530i@reddit
People that complain about SUVs being top heavy will turn around and wonder why Subaru uses a boxer engine in the Forrester.
Darkhuman015@reddit
Makes packaging easier and it’s their signature
PootyTheTang@reddit
Are you 12, little PP boy?
Background-Head-5541@reddit
Is it that you don't like boxer engines or the types of cars subaru produced?
Porsche still uses the boxer engine and it'd be hard to convince someone those suck.
Mazda doesn't make any real sports cars anymore. Unless you think the Miata is a sports car.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
The Miata is arguably the only sports car left on the market, at least if you use the traditional definition.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
I just don't understand why Subaru puts boxer engines in economy cars. I dont have a problem with the engines it just seems weird to put those engines in economy cars where there be more benefit of having them reserved for sports cars.
cabs84@reddit
subaru isn't a huge company, they do the best they can with their resources and share the same engine between all models.
Background-Head-5541@reddit
The arrangement of the engine block has nothing to with being a sports car. Inline 6 engines work great in trucks. They also work great in sports cars.
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
The Miata is more of a sports car than a 911 or an M4 or whatever. So is a TR6 or an MGB or a Spitfire or a Sprite. Sports car =/= fast.
jasonsong86@reddit
It’s just a history thing. They used to make airplane engines. Kinda like BMW still making inline 6 on their cars.
GreenManalishi24@reddit
But an inline 6 is an awesome engine design.
jasonsong86@reddit
So Porsche is just for jokes then?
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
I mean Porsche isnt putting boxer engines in the CUVs like Subaru
jasonsong86@reddit
That’s because Porsche SUVs are really VW not actual Porsche.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
Seems like you misunderstood my comment. You are only further reiterating my point. Porsche only puts boxer engines in their sports cars, so why is Subaru putting them in CUVs and economy cars unlike what Porsche is doing.
jasonsong86@reddit
Because Subaru is a much smaller car company without enough budget but too stubborn to change so they just put one engine design in everything.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
IDK about stubborn. If you are smaller, it makes sense to stick to one design.
Ponklemoose@reddit
And haven’t a parent or sister brand who’s parts bin they can raid.
klowny@reddit
Arguably, they have access to the automaker with the biggest parts pin in the world now. Their parent is Toyota.
But in true Japanese fashion, their pride won't allow them to use anything important.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Love the flat 6 design. Center of gravity is ridiculously low and right over the rear axle. There’s a reason 911s always launched better than cars with twice the power.
jasonsong86@reddit
Subarus have good center of gravity as well.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Yeah the majority of the engine is behind the front axle as well which I suspect contributes to their excellent handling
jasonsong86@reddit
Behind? Have you looked at under the hood of a Subaru(exclude BRZ/FRS).
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Well I meant the BRZ/GR86, but I get that’s not a “real” subaru
hi_im_bored13@reddit
The flat-6 & rear engine are cool and all but the i6 is pretty much as close as you can get to the objectively perfect engine short of a v12. Perfect balance, effortless power, and great packaging w/ turbos.
DoubleTime53@reddit
Great packaging so long as you have a hood long enough to fit it. Straight 6s and V12s are like the creme de la creme when it comes to engines, but they sure do prove there is such a thing as too much length.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Yeah I love i6s but they are enormous. The RB26 is such a big engine for a 2.6L. Also with DOHC the center of gravity is way higher than it would be on a V or flat engine.
Slideways@reddit
I6s are long, which is tough on crankshafts. What if the engine were only four cylinders long? That would make it easier to package. Then, instead of turning a balance shaft that saps power, the crankshaft could be connected to another bank of four cylinders? If you gave it a 90-degree bank angle and a cross-plane crank, you'd even have good balance. . .
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
Or you could just add more main caps and a girdle like many performance inline six engines, and then you wouldn't be cursed with two heads and a wide engine (assuming your design is from the 21st century and uses OHC) and worse balance and...
_galaga_@reddit
Most people laughed at the 718 4 cylinders tbf.
jasonsong86@reddit
People people laugh at 718s are too poor to own one.
Bonerchill@reddit
Or, crazy thought, they’re interested in the entire experience and the four-cylinder doesn’t have the same charms a six does.
The whole “people who complain about a thing do so because they can’t afford it” trope is so incredibly easy to rebut.
Crystal-Ammunition@reddit
nobody mentioned porsche lol
deppaotoko@reddit
Not many car enthusiasts seem to know that Subaru is still a Boeing supplier — they manufacture the center wing box for the 777 and 787.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
They're still doing. JGSDF Apaches are made by Fuji Industry, and the group is also planing to make rockets for space.
cabs84@reddit
subarus seem to be about symmetry. symmetrical AWD. symmetrical, longitudinal boxer engine layout d
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
So other cars don't have symmetrical AWD systems?
cabs84@reddit
no. most FWD based AWD systems have asymmetric-length half shafts.
https://www.sangerchevroletbuickgmc.com/what-is-symmetrical-all-wheel-drive/
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
It's partially packaging - the Subaru engines are mounted longitudinally rather than transverse like most four cylinder, front driven cars. A boxer engine is a lot shorter than an inline four when mounted longitudinally.
Electronic_Trade_721@reddit
The longitudinal placement also lends itself well to the 4WD that Subaru has offered for a long time in its cars, and the boxer engine also allowed the spare tire to fit under the hood, on older models at least; I'm not sure if they still do that.
Location_Born@reddit
Addicted to rod knock
macgirthy@reddit
I drove two different wrx and was extremely underwhelmed. Like what is the hype with those econoboxes?
2008 wrx and 2014 wrx, both left me thinking wow, what a turd. LOL
The outback I popularity I get tho, getting in and out of that car, its so comfy too. But wrx? butt cheeks
andyke@reddit
easy mods large community every issue has basically been found through members easy to work on if you know what you are doing and take it off pavement thats where it shines
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
Considering your flair I take it you've never seen snow. How much fun it is to drive a WRX is directly proportionate to how little traction there is on the road surface. Dirt is fine, gravel better, snow best.
Nobody cares that the interior is made of hard plastic if you're going sideways at 50mph.
AmericanExcellence@reddit
i've never driven any normal road car that was so clearly designed to be more at home off pavement than on than manual subarus. the first time i got off smooth pavement in one, the entire driveline and chassis came alive and i was like, "ah, so this is what this car is for".
13Vex@reddit
My buddy had a forester. Bit of a dog but pretty fun in the snow. Too bad it exploded
furrynoy96@reddit
Because it is a cool engine despite the lack of reliability
freelance-lumberjack@reddit
Because it's different and it's lower c.o.g. makes a sportier car.
Also heritage and history
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
So why put them in economy cars. That doesn't make any sense to me
jse000@reddit
Clean sheet, or iterative design, which do you think is cheaper and keeps down the cost of manufacturing an economy car?
MasterK999@reddit
Smart companies stick with what works. Change just for the heck of it is not a good idea.
Subaru has topped the most recent reliability ratings I saw. Above Toyota. So they are doing something right.
varezhka11@reddit
When you have longitudinally mounted FWD, you know, for all the inclement weather capabilities Subaru is known for you have limited choice of engine layouts that's sufficiently short.
You basically have V, H, or Wankel. Wankels like the old Mazda Luce R130 is not great for fuel efficiency, V4 like the old Saabs have inherent balance issues so 6-cylinders and up, which takes you to horizontally opposed engines. Same reason so many of the rear engined RWD cars were boxers as well.
You can do longitudinal inline-4 FWD like Audi, but that does make the car bigger and very nose heavy. Not great.
p3dal@reddit
I've never understood it either. I love the AWD system but hate the motor. Also, I would love a BRZ with an inline motor like a K20.
DoomDash@reddit
Yeah but those motors technically will ruin the vision for the car. The advantage of the flat floor is that it sits low in the center of gravity of the car is lower. The only thing that would swap over that keeps those properties is an actual rotary motor.
p3dal@reddit
Isn't the CG of the motor just an inch or two lower? I've owned a WRX and driven a few other subarus and it was not a noticeable effect on the car's character. A high revving inline is just more fun to me, but even as a low revving turbo, I prefer the engine bay layout of an inline. My Subaru was such a PITA to work on.
A rotary would be wildly different. I won't even get started on that, but I like where your head's at.
Big_Flan_4492@reddit (OP)
I remember people seeing that whatever benefit the BRZ has with the lower center of gravity is completely offset by the huge weight of the engine and that even the Supra has a lower center of gravity
p3dal@reddit
I may be biased, but driving it back to back against the new miata, I much preferred the new miata. I think the whole car's CG must be lower, regardless of where the engine's CG is.
rudbri93@reddit
it works well for their chosen drivetrain design. With the engine ahead of the front axle, making it short and flat is pretty good for packaging. They may not have a long history with a traditional sports car platform, but they did well with the sti and even threw that engine into the forester.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
They did try to put rear side before, they did try to make their poor man 911 if you know Subaru Sambar.
LewdDarling@reddit
At this point it's just due to sunk cost. No doubt inline 4s make way more sense for econoboxes, a lot of their competitors offer powertrains that are more powerful and efficient.
but think about the billions of dollars it would take for them to develop a completely new engine and on top of that they would have to redesign the packaging for the engine bay and AWD system since an inline 4 is laid out differently than a boxer. It's way less costly to just keep iterating on what they already have instead of starting from the ground up
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Sometimes the old ways are better, youngin'.
hobbles off from a lifetime on two solid axles
PurpleSausage77@reddit
The new BRZ/86 motor is fantastic. Very unique NA flat 4 makes 210whp, 230whp with just a tune/header. So 241hp/264hp at engine. Impressive and all-motor no FI.
kilertree@reddit
Due to Environmental regulations Mazda couldn't put that engine in everything. There were Rotary sedans and Pick ups. The problem with the Rotary engine is that it needs to burn oil to spin that fast.
kon---@reddit
Smooth operation, low center of gravity, efficient conversion of power from engine to the drive shaft, and lower production costs too.
LifeLowandSlow@reddit
What do you consider the WRX or STi? The 22b, SVX, or the XT? I mean no they are not “great” sports cars, but I’d say they check most of the boxes. As to why the boxer, there are advantages and disadvantages but they have lower center of gravity than almost any other type of engine.
peakdecline@reddit
Subaru engines are reliable. Head gaskets haven't been an issue in well over two generations of engines and the prevalence of the issues is less than the amount you hear about it.
But more than that... It's because that's what they've always made and at this point there's no business case to support developing their own internal design for an I4 (or other configuration) line of engines.
If they move away from the boxer layout for their ICE products it will be replaced almost certainly by a Toyota engine. But the boxer has marketing benefits... It's distinct in this price range to Subaru and helps still build some distinction to the brand in an age where everyone had AWD
andrewkpt@reddit
Head gasket issues and under powered consumer vehicles... History explains the companies failures better than the rally success it accomplished