Anglo-transliteration based reform of spelling?
Posted by zelenisok@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 32 comments
Would you support reform of your script (especially those already using Latin script) that would remove the diacritics and be based on basic English pronunciation of letters? It would look like this:
Current Gaj's Latinica: A, B, C, Č, Ć, D, Dž, Đ, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, Lj, M, N, Nj, O, P, R, S, Š, T, U, V, Z, Ž.
The reformed one: A, B, Ts, Ch, Ty, D, J, Dy, E, F, G, H, I, Y, K, L, Ly, M, N, Ny, O, P, R, S, Sh, T, U, V, Z, Zh.
Longjumping-Slip-376@reddit
Why would we do that? Our scripts are fine and we are used to them
mamlazmamlazic@reddit
Nope. Ex-YU languages all have "one symbol-one sound" rule and that should not be changed
chunek@reddit
Not true for Slovenian. L and V can both sound like U.
Progeny-@reddit
For example, the word “dog” is written as “pes” but should be pronounced “ps”.
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
unarticulated screaming in Maribor
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
That is not a good example. That depends on the dialect. You can have that in any language. But the above one is a legit example within the standard.
Progeny-@reddit
I don’t care if some suburban štajerc insists on greeting his pes when he comes back from his 9 hour šiht at the local perutnina ptuj refinery, It’s officially pronounced as ps and that’s how it’s also taught in schools. It’s as good of an example as any. On the contrary, when reading serbian cyrillic (for example), every single letter will always be pronounced the same and have the same sound no matter where it’s placed. That’s why these exist љ њ џ ђ
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Dude, it is not. It's not ps, it is pəs. It is a deaccented vowel, but it is still there.
Progeny-@reddit
Why are you pulling at straws? Ps and what you wrote are pronounced exactly the same. I wrote ps because most people reading this will know how to pronounce it whereas they (most likely) won’t know how to pronounce pəs. The detail is not reply worthy idk why you felt the need to nitpick me
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
No they are not. Say ps and say pəs. Ps is like psst when shushing somebody. No vowel in between.
Are you a migrant child? Grew up in Slovenia? Do you know how some Slovenians say film filəm? That ə sound, if you are fully fluent in Serbian or English does not exist in between there. That is the sound. It very much exists in pes. Nobody is saying ps.
What you consider a detail is a thing a linguist might use to completely discredit the claim that Slovenian is not one letter - one sound system. So I pointed out that it was not the best example. After all you are explaining it to people who don't find it natural as you do.
chunek@reddit
But it does depict that Slovenian is not a "one letter-one sound" language.. because the written letter e can sound as é, ê, or ə. In the case of pes, it's ə.
But you are correct that technically "ps" should sound differently from pəs or the Styrian pês. However, in slang and dialects, it quickly gets messy for foreigners.. daleč -> deləč, lahko -> lohkə, etc. If he would write "ps", I would more likely have guessed it to mean "dog", rather than ps without the ə in it.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
The whole point of this comment is to explain to foreigners.
It's pšššt in Slovenian. In Serbian it is either šššš or pssst. And it is completely besides the point. The point was to show to him and make him hear that there is a vowel in between p and s and that it does not sound the same as just saying ps.
What you depicted is how sometimes the pronunciation of vowels can very depending on accent and stress. It is a slightly different story, because in other languages that do use one letter - one sound vowels can also vary depending on accent and stress.
chunek@reddit
I get what you are saying, pes is never pronounced without a vowel.
He messed up with writing pes as "ps", but the point was correct. Pes, bes, res, all have a different sound, represented by the symbol/letter e. Pəs, bês, rés.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
So according to you Serbian is not one sound-one letter system because I can say Sâm sam u sobi.
You completely neglected the last paragraph. Do you know how vowels change according to accent and sentence stress? Or are you just repeating elemntary school Slovenian?
chunek@reddit
No I did not claim that. I also don't know Serbian, only a few words and have a vague impression of how it should sound. "Sâm sam u sobi".. it looks like the a and â are the same sound, just that â is a bit longer, is more emphasized, so it's not really an example of same symbol - different sound.
I know about accentuation and stress, yes.
chunek@reddit
Kinda true, because the e in pes is pronounced as ə, or "uh" in english, we say it's a halfvowel, and ə is not part of our alphabet, it's not a letter, just a symbol for the sound called schwa.
Same with megla, pronounced məgla, but in slang or dialect, you could write it as mgla and people should understand.
Both pes and megla, are granmaticaly correct pronounced as pəs and məgla.
zelenisok@reddit (OP)
I listed Gaj's latinica in the post, are you not seeing the Dž, Nj and Lj there?
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
They are treated as one letter. Nj is a single letter in the alphabet. It is not N+J combined in certain words like oo in book to be pronounced as u.
zelenisok@reddit (OP)
These new ones would be treated likewise as one letter.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Thankfully we weren't Brittish colonies. Why volunteer to act as one at this day and age?
Breezeshadow176@reddit
Ew, never
RomanMSlo@reddit
Hell no! Let them drop X, Y, W and Q, first!
chunek@reddit
No, definitely not.
We should instead add Ł to our alphabet, as it is very common in our speech and the way L is often pronounced. Połh, dołg, mołk, etc.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
No. However we have a law which describes how Bulgarian is transliterated so in essence we already do what you ask about.
HeyVeddy@reddit
English was amongst the first to formalize spelling despite having numerous words from Scandinavia, Norman French, modern French, amongst others. Because of that numerous words are spelt how they were pronounced hundreds of years ago unfortunately.
It absolutely needs to be the one to change, not Balkan languages.
U kan stil reed my wurdz wen I spel...despite it being completely wrong. This is basically how 99% of serbo Croatian languages/dialects are written.
Cefalopodul@reddit
I would not support somoething that involved anything Anglo
zelenisok@reddit (OP)
Yet you are here speaking English 🤔
Cefalopodul@reddit
That's why I would not support it.
the_bulgefuler@reddit
I'd argue it's English that could do with the Gaj alphabet treatment. When you have polyphthongs like 'ough' that have a dozen different pronunciations, you get the point.
zelenisok@reddit (OP)
That's true. Though I would just keep the basic Enligh alphabet and make Enlish spelling phonetic..
(Det's tru. Dou ay vud jast kip d beyzik Inlish alfabet end meyk Inglish speling fonetik).
the_bulgefuler@reddit
We also have words like 'shvatiti' (to understand) that wouldn't fit with the translation.
zelenisok@reddit (OP)
Švatati is fine, lol.