Just once, I'd like to see fantasy authors show that their "evil species" are capable of good, but convince themselves to do evil - and then they use that to make the point that this makes their actions more deplorable, not less.
Evil requires moral agency. You wouldn't or a hurricane evil because it destroys your home. It's a force of nature. An "ontologically evil" being would be no different. Doing harm is simply its nature.
The next time a demon comes up from the 5th layer of Hell and slaughters my family while forcing me to watch, I will at least feel comforted that they weren't truly being evil but just incapable of doing good.
Dude that’s straight up the exact point they’re making. Here’s what a demon is: an angle who betrays god and chooses to become pure evil. THATS THE FUCKING POINT. They had the full agency to do good, then they willingly decide to do harm. Not born into, not biological and it’s not because they’re red men with horns, it’s because they chose to
If a demon (of undisclosed origin) slaughtered your family while forcing you to watch (which, for the record, is the premise of this entire discussion) would you take it up with God or Hasboro
I am not an expert, but my understanding is they were created either directly by powerful beings in hell, or were created by using the souls of powerful humans. And there are a few canonical examples of demons choosing good, even in just this game.
In the sense of D&D, I think the classic Devil archetype would be what the original guy was saying. Devils will do seemingly “good things” for your character…in exchange for you unknowingly being the means to their end.
Issnt shovel a demon? Wouldnt that mean they have innocents or something of the like? I feel like demons never get a chance to be otherwise by nature but realisticly chaos of the abyss should naturally create good demons. Because chaos isnt defined by a specific alignment. Entropy has no values, but a being born into it has a capacity for unlimited potential
I think the idea is it’s truly chaotic but within an evil umbrella hence Chaotic Evil, they are all inherently evil but the variation of their own internal compasses and actions are so detached from a system of decisions that it’s just always evil.
This opens up some fun hypotheticals. It's a good argument that a being requires the capacity for food in order to be evil, since evil is more the opposite end of a spectrum from good than a specific unique element, in the same way you can't point at any specific color and say that it's the gradient. But what happens when something is specifically an embodied epitome, representative or avatar of the general ~force ~ of evil, like how many fictional characters are the physical representation of dark (itself part of a spectrum)?
Is it itself evil, even while it is Evil incarnate? Or is it more in the same category as like a tornado of evilness, just blowing through without being identified by the winds of which it's constructed?
It doesn't make the action itself more or less harmful.
We are discussing the philosophy of the being doing the harm.
People don't like to wrestle with the idea of nature versus nurture because it makes them uncomfortable due to genetic discussions in real world race conversations.
The idea that a sentient being could be predisposed towards "evil" or harmful actions.
Though I find it dumb to begin with becauase evil is a matter of perspective. To a Chicken, we are all worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.
True enough. We do offer more lenient punishments for young people who commit atrocities because of their lack of understanding. Then again we also put down animals for biting people soooo... it's a crapshoot either way.
All I know is that if there's someone sucking my brains out I don't really care what their motivation was.
Well I’d assume there’d have to be some nuisance in the example that person gave, if the demons just literally popped into the material plane outside your house and started stabbing your family to death I don’t think it’d prove “they’re choosing to do evil instead of good” to you. I think at that point you’d just think it was demons being demons.
That's why I like Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous's take on demons. Demons in that universe are formed from the souls of evil mortals damned to the Abyss - so while demons aren't forced to be evil in order to become a demon you have to have already been evil and then survive a brutal mutually destructive competition between the various abyssal larva in order to become an actual demon.
A DEVIL is what you described. Demons are never fleshed out from a story perspective of the Bible. Just that they were critters that lived in hell before the angels got cast down. And that they ran around causing mischief.
Theories have been they are just q manifestation of hell, but then certain demons actually have personality and do specific things. Others claim they were the souls of other failed 'god projects'. The only thing we 'know' about demons is they are wicked and dont do gods will. And they aren't a fan of anything that isn't them. They are very xenophobic.
I thought devils in DnD are the souls of the dead who were claimed by the Lords or other devils through pacts and such. Then some were kept locked away and others were used as their workforce. And demons were created by souls becoming lost and sent to the abyss. I could be wrong. It's been awhile since I read the 5e stuff, unless you're talking about an older edition
Oh, you liked how this race worked in terms of what they worship and their motives? Well fuck you
We're making a new addition and completely changing it!
Lul no. Biblically demons are given almost zero backstory. This is such common thing. Like most "lore" for hell, demons, the devil, Satan, lucifer, et al comes from pop culture or bible fanfic. It's just that the fanfic is so old we call it Classical Literature, but like the amount of shit people spout off about being "scripture" that's straight from Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno is comical.
It's like asking what part of the I Ching explains how to fly using your Qi, and blast off Kamehamehas.
The Apocrypha, now that's a straight up other story. But Cannon The Bible is nowhere near half the shit people misattribute to it
It's not about comfort. If a tornado killed my mom in front of my eyes, i'd be as devastated as if a demon did it. Demons in that setting are the same as a force of nature when it comes to its agency, trying to place a moral judgment to it is pointless. You see a demon? You kill it, or you run or whatever.
I'll try to rephrase. If something always hurts you with 100% certainty with no different outcome possible, you don't plead with it, and you shouldn't expect a different outcome from it. It being sentient or not is not a factor that matters in this equation if it doesn't influence it's actions and change them, which is what happens to demons in this specific context.
The demon is still aware of its actions even if that does not affects its behavior. If you only care about outcomes I'm not sure how someone's nature is relevant.
A person can be good or bad depending on its morals and upbringing. A demon can only be evil. It has no saying and no choosing in the matter, it is a spectator of its own existence. Thus, placing moral judgment into its actions is pointless. You either kill it or banish it or whatever it is that people in D&D do with demons, you don't try to plead with it, or appeal to its sense of righteousness because its not there, that's not how they're made.
Well, then we're entering in a complex debate about free will against determinism. If you believe in free will, then a person can always choose goodness even in spite of upbringing because their morals are not set in stone. If you believe in determinism, then technically, a bad person is no better than a demon because neither chose what they are. Still tho, people can be good or bad (even if they can't actively choose what to be in a deterministic world), demons can only be evil, so morally speaking they're no better than cancer or a tornado.
This is so off the mark, no, it's not pointless, in fact studying the morals of it are pretty important in the setting, because your actions and your society's will weaken or strengthen supernatural forces and you don't get to decide what's Good and what's Evil, because they're real, measurable forces independent of personal point of view.
That's not the point. If you are a good or bad person in life, it doesn't change the chances of you having cancer. If your friends are good or evil, it doesn't change the chances of you having cancer.
In D&D you are good or evil or your society is good or evil, do affect the chances of your family being slaughtered by demons.
Well, then the culprit of you being eaten by demons is the actions of the collective, not of the demon itself. The same way someone can have cancer if it lives in a polluted city. It's not cancer's fault you're dying, it's societies for not taking care of the enviroment.
Okay, but the cancer isn't evil because it's a natural consequence. The demons are capital E Evil because they're a _super_natural consequence, and no, it isn't the fault of the collective anymore than saying a serial killer is a victim of how society treated them, because demons were humanoid souls in life condemned to the Abyss for their evil actions.
The only thing you're mixing up is the natural and supernatural. Even if they can't make choices they're still Evil because they are literally made out of Evil, without Evil they wouldn't exist in the first place.
Hahahahaha one roasted dude did you make that come back up? Dude did you? I’ve never heard it before. BURRRRNNNNN. Ah man that was so fuckin funny. Are you the same guy who came up with cap? Bro you are so cool will you be my friend
Next time a tornado kills my family I'll devote my life in getting revenge on and killing the WIND and gain comfort from the fact I'm fighitng for justice against evil.
OOP also didn't read too hard. Omeluum is a practically a Paladin by Mindflayer standards but he still eats people who stand in the way of the Society's goals, about once a month. You can even stand I. The way of the Spciety's goals....by refusing to kidnap a Githyanki kid so they can brainwash it and prove evil kids can turn good.
Example: Doctor Who and Missy, aka "The Master", Missy makes an actual, valiant effort to be good, to be an ally to The Doctor...proving that The Master always had the potential to be good...
Which makes the actions of every other incarnation of The Master, especially the next one, that much worse. The Master now knows he can be good, that he has it in him, and it disgusts him, so he delves into even worse depths than ever, full on wiping out Gallifrey as a whole.
Helghan are like the opposite of this trope. Normal people who've spent too long away from Earth and too many wars against the ISA so when they are given the chance to split a city with ISA they start genociding them.
Sauron actually does consider himself the embodiment of evil, more so than most other villains. He even chose his name because he sees the Lord of the Rings character as the ultimate evil he aspires to.
Not exactly related but the Wonder Woman movie had an amazing point where Wonder Woman thought the Nazis we’re being mind controlled by the big bad guy the whole movie, only for one of the soldiers she’s been traveling with to say no. Sometimes normal people can just be awful.
Then in the next scene it turned out all the Nazis were actually in fact being mind controlled ruining the one good message and moment that movie had for a really boring over the top cgi set piece
It did do a bad job with actually executing on what you’re talking about though, and I highlighted the big reason why.
There were no Nazis in the movie. Lots of people remember it as Nazis, but it was WWI. It just made so many of the Germans cartoonishly evil that it felt like they were Nazis. Honestly I’m not sure why they went for WWI with that movie, it felt like they wrote it as WWII and then backed out at the last second.
They were mind controlled and were just awful. The war didn't end when Ares (that was the big bad in that movie, right?) was defeated despite what WW thought would happen.
I viewed it less as mind control and simply encouraging the worst aspects which snow balled into them becoming monsters. Once you can justify the small evils, the greater evils are just that much more closer.
Not sure if you know the lore of these guys. But to give some more context for those who don’t:
They are called mind flayers. They are born as a small parasite which eats someone’s brain and then grows squid heads out of a dead body.
To sustain themselves they have to consume the brains and memories of their victims. So a “good” squid boy can’t really exist. Because they would starve themselves to death.
On top of that, they are ruled over by creatures called elder brains, who are just super advanced mind flayers. They control the thoughts and actions of entire squid boy colonies and choose for them what they do, which in universe is always evil.
This squid boy we see above had broken free from his elder brain, and was surviving in a colony of mushroom people surviving off of evil dwarfs and other creatures to survive.
Truly special individuals, like The Emperor or Umeluum would usually be killed because they have the ability to break off from the colony and become elder brains themselves (pretty much always taking a chunk of their original colony with them) But neither of the exceptional mindflayrrs in bg3 do that. Also if the tadpoles are left untended they form giant monster worms like the hunters from halo do.
Both the emperor and omeluum are "normal" mindflayers - the ones capable of evolving to elder brain are a special caste, defined by really long tentacles reaching to below the knees. The emperor was immune because he was the flayer to find the prism with orpheus inside who has a mind control protection aura. As for omeluum, he's a wizard and it's noted that mindflayers who can cast arcane magic are naturally more resistant to elder brain influence.
They are usually ruthlessly exterminated by their fellow mind flayers when their magic is discovered because they are less controllable by the elder brain.
I believe if you go down the right decision tree and rabbit hole in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous this comes up with their demon species. Evil is supposed to be their nature and then two demons randomly actually fall in real love and can choose. Calls into question whether felons have had a choice all along or if it’s their society or nature etc.
Do they also know they're doing evil, then? Or are they doing good in their view? Because otherwise, them doing evil for shits and giggles is rather boring.
I mean, who doesn't love a good chair made out of a sentient being that's been engineered, awake and screaming, to remain alive and able to feel pain for eternity? That's pretty neat. Some of them even scream when you sit down if you leave a mouth on them and tip the Haemonculi good.
The space elves are a good example of a race that can do good but act like dicks out of their own volition, there is nothing preventing a dark elf from saying "okay my career as a dog flenser is at a dead end" and going back to being a regular elf.
They aren't a different race like they are in D&D, they're just solving their Slaanesh problem by being so gross that not even the literal god of rape wants to touch them. Commorragh is just Space 4chan.
Don't they get their souls eaten if they just abruptly stop? They'd need a soul stone or whatever the Harlequins use to stave off Slaanesh. Not sure how hard it is for a regular Drukhari to get one of those.
Well, they don't drop dead on the spot. They still need to die the regular way before Slaanesh gets them. If they make a pact with a Craftworld for a soul stone, join the Ynnari, or get recruited by the Harlequins, they can stop and face no consequences.
A perfect example of this would be the saying 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
They don't just begin as inherently evil. They start trying to do good, but have to start pushing limits. "It's only one time. Then I'll stop" "Oh well I did it once already, but that is the limit" And on and on it goes.
Not really. It just requires perspective. That's why a lot of times the "ontologically evil" monsters view humans as insects. Torturing and eating ants is weird and a bit cruel, especially if you clearly take pleasure in it. But almost nobody would argue that it's even remotely the same level of immorality as torturing and eating your fellow humans. That's because we as a species recognize ants as being beneath us. Yet suddenly when demons do it to us it's all "omg, they're so evil and horrible." We hold them to the moral standard that we have set for ourselves.
Omg I can't believe I have to scroll that long to find this answer. You are absolutely correct, it's all a matter of perspective. There is no real good/evil at all. People find something evil when it goes against their morals code and that's it. For a sociopath, killing people is not even evil because they don't have any morals to begin with.
Yeah, this comment sort of READS well but just doesn't really make any sense. I only spent a few minutes thinking about a scenario where this might actually have a good reason that ISNT just this creature(s) that did x did a good thing to make the evil thing even worse. Maybe I'll see someone else comment a good example, but I haven't spotted one yet.
It could just as easily be the circumstances of an individual’s choices in relation to their specific culture, or even in relation to all the other entities mutually obligated to that culture in a given hereishness and nowishness.
‘Evil’ could also just as easily be the end results of acts of care having been withdrawn due to the way the mutually obligated entities responded to one another in assemblage.
Not gonna lie, this is a really interesting line of though.
I'd argue it's just as bad if they are hopelessly evil
I think of daleks in doctor who, who can joke and banter but there is absolutely no way in 1000000 years you are going to convince them not to murder everything. It's so hopeless even considering that they could do something good
In general, writers have 2 main issues when writing intelligent species. That being the "Planet of Hats" issue and the "Moral absolution" issue.
Planet of Hats refering to a species being defined only by a couple of rigid characteristics in which individuality straight up doesn't exist. Everyone of this species looks the same, acts the same and believes in the same things.
Moral Absolution refering to the given species all sharing the exact same morals and hardline beliefs with no self awareness, ambiguity or nuance. The species all hold the exact same values, why? Because they do.
it would be a shit story. Stories aren't "le reddit subvert the subverted expectations", you need something to grip the masses and make them attached to something.
If someone makes a species evil, it’s usually to justify the protagonist not needing to think too deeply about the nature of killing members of that species.
However, there is actually an entire genre of works that are like this. Sadly, the “evil species” in question are… humans(?). It’s called Xianxia/Wuxia/Cultivation and the general trend in this genre is that the cultivators (basically super powerful magic humans based on Chinese mythology) are all capable of doing good things, but often don’t because it’s better for them to be evil to obtain their goals.
For example: in a Xianxia book, it’s often the protagonist’s goal to become a true genuine Chinese immortal. There are a lot of ways of doing this, but oftentimes they may require you to do evil things.
A very stereotypical example in this genre is the human pill stereotype. A lot of people in these worlds often need to extend their lives artificially to get more power and to eventually find a more natural way to extend them. In order to do this, it’s common for a character to murder another person, take out all their bones, and crush them into a small pill they can consume, taking the lifespan of the person they ate and getting a little more powerful.
The entirety of this genre is likebthis, so if you’re interested in reading this kind of dynamic, I would pick up “Reverend Insanity”, “A Regressor’s Tale of Cultivation”, and “Renegade Immortal” in that order.
Reverend Insanity and Regressors Tale of Cultivation are really interesting to compare, being almost polar opposites. Fang Yuan (RI) believes that it's okay to plunder others because everyone everyone is equal, himself included. If others try to kill him, that is not evil, but natural. Everything is permitted if it brings you benefits.
Life and death is nature’s law. All living beings are equal, and everyone has their right to survive and be killed. There might be royalty and lower beings, but in face of death, a person’s death is no different from a pig’s, what’s the difference? They’re both dead.
Seo Eun-Hyun (RToC) meanwhile believes that plunder is bad because what you take from others can be taken from you and is generally not a nice thing to do. He refuses to use pills, and instead suffers to overcome challenges with his own power, slowly accumulating into a Great Mountain that cannot simply be taken from you.
Immortal Cultivation is essentially comprehension. Like tiny grains of salt gathering to form the sea. Build mountains through comprehension. Building a mountain of salt is perhaps the fastest way to reach the heavens.
Gazing upon righteousness, knowing how to mend our wrongs.
To love each other with purity and goodwill.
To have pride in impossible dreams.
Believing thus, reaching the stars.
You have that in Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance. There are these evil ass looking bird monsters called Skeksis and the show makes a point of showing numerous times that they do not have to be the way they are, but they choose to commit acts of evil. You even have a scene where one of them tries to justify their actions to the protagonist and trying to potray themselves as necessary evil rather than murdering parasites.
Or be like Demons in Frieren. The Demons are capable of deceit, like an example is them pretending to be messengers of peace, to lower down the Humans' guards. Their ultimate goal being to ask the humans to remove the town barrier as a sign of trust.
They are capable of speech, but mutual understanding can never be achieved because the Demons are in the end, are descendants of monster who cried help.
I would like to recommend this webnovel "I Became an Evolving Space Monster" by 공포의거북이. Its one of my favorite takes on an Evil MC. Its about a human who possesses the body of an evil species (basically a xenomorph). Under normal circumstances, this monster is supposed to be a brainless bullet sponge. However in this book, MC constantly uses manipulation and fear tactics to hunt for survival.
Your comment reminds me of this book because every now and then MC would self-reflect on how he had become a ruthless killer. What really makes this special for me is that he is neither regretful, nor edgy about it. He's in between the moral gray area of accepting his sins but also prioritizing his survival.
That actually happened in a Duck Avenger (Donald Duck’s superhero persona but even more serious) comic I read a few years ago, in which he finds himself in deep space on a micro planet of Evronians (a nearly pure evil race of aliens that see him as its arch nemesis) that have lost all of their high command in a war with completely stone-cold robots on the planet itself, no idea who PK even is.
So he pretends to be some sort of general sent by high command to get them out of there, and in the process he gets to see their better side: they have a good sense of camaraderie, they are kind to each other, and it’s made very clear that their knowledge and technology would greatly improve the galaxy in general if they weren’t being constantly pushed by their superiors to destroy everything they come across.
And yes, when eventually SHTF, there is one of them who’s specifically pacifist and has been pretending to be dumb the entire time, and so he gets brought back to Earth as the spore he was born from.
This is a common trope in hero movies and popular art in general.
Thanos was a good guy, snapping for a good cause, for example.
Unfortunately Right Wing fans have no idea how to interpret actual basic and obvious media, so we end up with trash to avoid their angry boycotts and death threats.
This. It's like parthenaux but in reverse. What is worse?- to be born evil, or to overcome your good nature through great effort?"
This logic is what I was using to explain why darth vader is more evil than most characters because he KNOWS what he's doing is wrong and he choses it anyway. People didn't like it because (I think it was kid buu or something) Did more damage and is more powerful. But that doesn't make sense to me.
But is that species doing the evil thing because it thinks that thing is good?
Goblins raping women to breed with them is good for the goblin, evil for everyone else.
And goblins acting this way is good because it means killing them without hesitation is purely morally good, for us. They have no capability of human good.
I feel like this has been done with daleks in Dr. Who, where they had one turn good and try to turn all of them good, and the rest went "nah fuck that" and literary just show how deplorable they are, and there are other instances throughout the series.
I’d be okay with that. Something about a member of a hideously evil but le scientific race taking shelter in the midst of a sandstorm and just mulching orphans, because it will keep the collective alive longer.
If you want to argue an 'ontological evil' isn't a 'true evil' because they are determined by their nature to do evil, then following ther logic of determinism, even a 'true evil' who has the capacity for both but chooses evil also isn't a true evil because they are predetermined again by their nature and extrinsic (as well as inherited intrinsic) axioms to act evil.
I think if a species is described as good or evil, it should be inherent. I don't really think of the drow as an "evil race" because too many of them are good or at worst neutral, they just mostly worship an evil god. If there can be exceptions then I don't think you can call them inherently anything. I do agree that agency makes evil actions more deplorable, but I find it to be more interesting to ponder on the nature of a race that is thinking but for some reason unable to change their nature.
That's basically orcs, forsaken undead and some other races in World of Warcraft. But that's mostly because the writing WoW it's schizophrenic and nonsensical many times
In this case, isn’t this true? Mind flayers lack moral agency because an elder brain (which is truly evil) are basically guiding/forcing their communities to wage war and shit. This guy doesn’t have one.
If you want to argue an 'ontological evil' isn't a 'true evil' because they are determined by their nature to do evil, then following ther logic of determinism, even a 'true evil' who has the capacity for both but chooses evil also isn't a true evil because they are predetermined again by their nature and extrinsic (as well as inherited intrinsic) axioms to act evil.
I kinda disagree... showing capacity for goodness makes a species more relatable and shows that they have 'redemptive' qualities. It allows for things like discourse & hope. A truly evil species by our standards would be one who delights in making humans suffer, or is a significant threat to our species in some way.
I think what you perhaps were getting at is that an organism needs to be sentient in order to qualify as evil, in the sense that they need to have to cognitive tools to understand what they are doing. This is why your example of a hurricane cannot qualify as evil.
I think evil as a moral concept relates more to 'unreachableness' than capacity for good. There is absolutely no way you could persuade a truly evil person or thing not to inflict suffering on others. They would be impossible to redeem.
the amount of people getting unironically ragebaited in the comments is crazy. anon does have a slight point, even if it's just meant to be ragebait. but yeah you lot should take a chill pill and remember that this came from 4chan lol
The character in the post is a Mind Flayer named Omeluum from the game Baldur's Gate 3. Mind Flayers are considered and evil, soulless race of hive-minded aliens hell-bent on killing, enslaving, or assimilating all life in the universe.
However, in many source books for D&D, there have been cases where Mind Flayers have been capable of breaking away from the hive mind and developing their own individual personalities. While most use this individuality to become evil, there are recorded instances of Mind Flayers becoming benevolent, usually as a result of them remembering their past lives before they were transformed into Mind Flayers. There's even evidence to suggest that Mind Flayers do in fact have souls, just unique ones outside the normal jurisdiction of D&D gods.
Basically everything Anon said was wrong in the greater lore of D&D, and he's either ignorant, or is just a troll spewing ragebait.
Depends on how you treat him. I'm always nice to him, so when I turned him down, he seemed legitimately disappointed and apologized for the advances.
I've heard that if you have a lukewarm relationship with him, hell try to seduce you, but if you turn him down then, he'll say he wasn't serious and is thankful you want to keep things professional.
If you have an outright sour relationship with him at that point, he'll just threaten you instead of trying to put the moves on you.
He's a complex guy. I get the sense he doesn't actually care all that much—he just switches tactics based on whatever he thinks will work best in the moment. I don't think he's entirely malicious, just extremely pragmatic, cunning, and even dispassionate. And for the record, that's exactly why I don't trust the intentions behind the romance.
I mean, are we really supposed to believe that the Machiavellian mind flayer is taking the time to seduce you for any reason other than to manipulate your fragile little brain into loving him—so you’ll willingly stay curled up in the palm of his hand?
Oh, make no mistake. The Emperor is a pragmatist at heart. Everything he does and says is in the interest of his survival, and it's only by chance that any of it benefits you as well. That being said, I'm not convinced he's incapable of caring. He is, after all, a fully aware illithid separated from an Elder Brain. He only sides with the >!Netherbrain!< as an absolute last resort when he thinks he's about to die.
For my first playthrough, I didn't trust him in the slightest, so I tried to manipulate him right back. I was as nice and cooperative as possible, and even shagged him when the time came (Though that was mostly because I wanted to bang an illithid). When I eventually turned against him at the finale, I was surprised to hear him say that not only did he trust me, he thought we had a connection. I'm still not sure if he was being earnest with that statement, but judging by the endings where you side with him, he does actually seem to at least consider you a friend by the end of it all.
He's a really cool character that I feel too many people look at in black or white instead of the shades of grey where he truly resides.
I completely agree—he’s far more nuanced than people give him credit for. I don’t think the Emperor’s vulnerability or admiration is entirely manufactured. He probably does feel those things, at least in part. But the key thing for me is that whatever emotion he shows is just one facet of a much more calculated whole. He doesn't lie, exactly—he just carefully curates what he reveals to you, picking the version of himself most likely to gain your trust or loyalty. So even if there’s real admiration or a sense of connection, it’s always filtered through how useful he thinks you are. He’s not incapable of caring—he just doesn’t separate caring from strategy.
He actually lives in the city, you just first meet him underground because you meet his bf Blurg who is collecting mushrooms in the Underdark. When Blurg sees the party's unique condition, he gives Omeluum a call, who teleports down there to speak with you.
Act 3 Spoilers ahead as to his exact location: ||In Act 3, you can visit an underwater prison called The Iron Throne, in which you can save many people being unjustly held there. Omeluum is also imprisoned there, but in a secluded room that's hard to find. Because arriving at the prison activates a self-destruct sequence, you have limited time to evacuate everyone, and it's easy to miss him. When found, he even demands you save the others and leave him. However, if you free him he can teleport you to safety and gifts you some items for rescuing him.||
Ohhhhh. I remember that place. In my first playthrough we bumrushed many locations/events, that was one of them. We were even lucky to finish that. In the second playthrough i didn't even get there because i was doing another kind of playthrough
In the realm of the game, mind flayers don't have souls. Withers, the god of death and soul collector, actually says that they don't have souls to get all the doubt out of the way.
But let's face it, act 3 is a badly written rushed chaos so maybe they planned to build Omeluum up more and explain that he's getting a soul back because he remembers his past life or something
At the end of the game if ||you or a party member undergo ceremorphosisll, Withers will actually correct himself and state that although the original soul is unaccounted for, there is a flicker of something within that remains identifiable as the original person.
What anon said is what’s gonna happen to the vex in destiny because bungie is a group of lazy fucks who injected some insane robot bitch into an alien race that has no personality besides “CONVERT EVERYTHING TO MORE VEX” in order to try and make them “relatable” and “human”, as if a race of ALIENS needs to be more HUMAN.
Honestly seems like good mindflayers are a bug and not a feature of the species, which is good since you can get cool characters with solid reasoning for why they are that way, while still having an absolutely vile parasitic species that do horrible things that they must contest against.
iirc their diet consist of eating brains, soo sooner or later they need to eat some brains to still alive, but atleast if its a "good" mind flayer it can eat brains of "bad" dudes, something like Venom
The preferred diet of a "Good" mind flayer is that of the terminally ill, or other similarly near-death individuals who wouldn't mind donating their grey matter. Eating only the brains of evil doers will slowly affect their own mind and tilt them towards evil, but consuming the brains of generous commoners will help keep them aligned with good, or at least impartial neutrality.
Even when you look past all the moral philosophy stuff, it's baked into the rules that they can follow a good alignment, which means they're inherently capable of change.
Good to know, one of my biggest turnoffs about potentially becoming a mindflayer is losing your soul, and the same reason I figured trusting the emperor was foolish. If he's just a soulless parasite looking to extract value from everyone then it's a no brainer to avoid him. But I guess that's just how he is, even with a soul, lol.
Yeah but >!The Emperor!< is a morally grey trauma boy who is a lying, scheming manipulator at the best of times and outright hostile at the worst, depending on how you treat him. I still like to believe that his character is complex enough that he's not outright evil as many people like to claim, but he's by no means a good person. Smash material, but probably not marriage material, you feel me?
Omeluum is a real one though. True G through and through. I'd put a ring on it if he wasn't already churning the calamari custard with Blurg. I wish those two the best.
Just adding to this, the entire point of DnD is that nothing is 100% cannon, you can change and manipulate things as you will in order to tell your own narrative. The monster manual is a guideline, not a bible. If you want to make a world where humans are good paladins and orcs are evil demon worshipers, great, a classic! If you want to make a world where orcs are morally good scientists, and humans are antivaxer luddite barbarians, absolutely, subvert those expectations! Larian had a story they wanted to tell, and they are allowed to manipulate things to do so.
Not to mention he literally gives you a Ring of Mind Shielding, which could mean it was a spare and he's using it to keep himself safe from the Absolute and whatnot.
From what I remember >!when you meet him later he tells you that it’s just a normal ring and the effect is basically just placebo.!<
He just naturally has a strong connection with magic which lets him evade the hive mind.
More specific to Forgotten Realms lore, but this is not anything new for Mind Flayers! There is a Mind Flayer NPC from the Out of the Abyss adventure book who is a member of the same organization as this character from BG3.
OP has never read the Bible. Book literally starts with a being made of pure, universal goodness from an omnipotent entity. He rejects his entire existence and rebels against his creator.
"The weird, good one" is an ancient trope in fantasy media, btw. Not a clever subversion, it's an expected one.
Dosent he specifically say that he isn't a part of the hive mind and bearing in mind there's a potential 5 other free willed mindflayers in that game I don't think Anon actually paid attention to the game.
Have their worldview acknowledged that some ~~minorities~~ species are irredeemable and there is nothing that can change that. At least that's what it looks like.
Not saying it has to be a standin for race to OP, it could also be a standin for religion.
Tf do they mean being subversive, "that one guy who's the evil race but chill" is like one of the most common tropes ever for settings with said evil race.
Exactly lmao. I remember Fallout 4 tried two be submersive by offering the first non-chill supermutant companion in the franchise, and he wound up being one of the most divisive companions in the game, with some people stating they would rather have the option to recruit the chill supermutant from one of the DLCs
I think it's just that the recent grift about Frieren being le heckin based show for having no good demon rotted some people's brains
Im guessing it isn't there to be subversive and it's because they wanted the enemy to be the US government, but instead of doing something cool like how doom handles hell based energy they wanted to just make the US governments bigots instead.
In all of my Dungeon Master Guides I have ever owned, when it talks about monster alignment, it says that when a monster's stats show it to be chaotic evil, that there is some small percentage of outliers that will be neutral evil or chaotic neutral.
Pretty dumb. There are 'good' mindflayers in the DnD lore books. They're not exactly as nice as this guy, but they're not evil like the rest of them. Any monster, aside from demons, can follow a good alignment.
To be honest Mindflayers arent inherently evil, they are like lovecraftian eldritch monsters, they are so far disconnected from humanity that for them their actions are justified because its all for their great plan.
Its like how for orcs raiding and killing is OK because in their culture, those who are too weak to protect themselves dont deserve their stuff
Now for orcs is cultural but mindflayers mind is so exoteric and also an hivemind at some level that ofcourse they are going to do stuff people think its evil but mindflayers usually arent malicious, they just dont care, they enslave and convert countless of people with the same care you'd file taxes.
So a "good" mindflayer could be an interesting thought.
I don't recall where I read it, but I had seen somewhere that this Characters motivations could be considered has "True Neutrall/Neutral Evil", due to some notes or something.
Though I wouldn't mind someone more knowledgeable correcting me
There is another mind flayer in the game who fits that description (he’s honestly an absolute shithead if you don’t listen to him) but Omeluum is a cool guy who just happens to be a mind flayer
I mean, those just are Outsiders in the context of D&D.
Demons, Devils and the likes. Beings born outside of the mortal realm and made out of the same stuff of their native plane of existence.
Celestials that turn evil fall, they can't remain celestials, nor can any demon ever be Good.
The highest example of a "not evil demon" is a neutral one from the game Planescape Torment, and it's treated as a once-in-a-fuckton-of-years existence that baffles people.
making something evil and trying to justify it is fine, I think it’s overdone but it can be done really well. making something just be as evil as possible for the sake of being evil can be absolutely fucking hilarious if done well and I am all for it
In Dungeon's & Dragons Online there is a friendly mind flayer named Fred that lets you respec your feats. He also has appearances in a couple of quests.
Dominus_Invictus@reddit
This is an extremely common d&d trope. I don't know why we are surprised by this.
Designated_Lurker_32@reddit
Just once, I'd like to see fantasy authors show that their "evil species" are capable of good, but convince themselves to do evil - and then they use that to make the point that this makes their actions more deplorable, not less.
Evil requires moral agency. You wouldn't or a hurricane evil because it destroys your home. It's a force of nature. An "ontologically evil" being would be no different. Doing harm is simply its nature.
Previous_Air_9030@reddit
The next time a demon comes up from the 5th layer of Hell and slaughters my family while forcing me to watch, I will at least feel comforted that they weren't truly being evil but just incapable of doing good.
overgamer1@reddit
Dude that’s straight up the exact point they’re making. Here’s what a demon is: an angle who betrays god and chooses to become pure evil. THATS THE FUCKING POINT. They had the full agency to do good, then they willingly decide to do harm. Not born into, not biological and it’s not because they’re red men with horns, it’s because they chose to
Previous_Air_9030@reddit
I was under the impression that demons in D&D lore are literally just manifestations of evil.
DragonHollowFire@reddit
Imagine your family being killed by a tiger vs it being killed by a human. Which one makes you hate the killer more?
Wantitneeditgetit@reddit
Devil's exist too though.
_MargaretThatcher@reddit
Okay well dnd demons can't kill your irl family
Ironborn137@reddit
DND is just as real as any religion is.
_MargaretThatcher@reddit
If a demon (of undisclosed origin) slaughtered your family while forcing you to watch (which, for the record, is the premise of this entire discussion) would you take it up with God or Hasboro
RickGrindskin@reddit
But regular demons can?
_MargaretThatcher@reddit
Yeah watch me
Acerbis_nano@reddit
Yo wassup how hot is down there
Castaaluchi@reddit
Username checks out
BrideofClippy@reddit
It defeats his point, Thatcher was also intrinsically incapable of performing good.
lampstaple@reddit
[citation needed] where's your proof she wasn't immortal and ontologically evil?
SandwichLord57@reddit
Well that’s not entirely true, she did die.
vibebell@reddit
RickGrindskin@reddit
lol
EvaUnit_03@reddit
https://i.redd.it/rrlkwgrqq74f1.gif
Luke22_36@reddit
Inner demons can
CHUD_Adams@reddit
maybe
rain_prejudice@reddit
Ryjaki@reddit
"I promise I will not eat a single morsel of food... Until Margaret Thatcher is dead and buried!" "She died three weeks ago-"
Nyarlathotep90@reddit
Thatcher's funeral was the first instance in history when a 28-gun salute shot the coffin.
PrimalDirectory@reddit
I am not an expert, but my understanding is they were created either directly by powerful beings in hell, or were created by using the souls of powerful humans. And there are a few canonical examples of demons choosing good, even in just this game.
GoldenGlobeWinnerRDJ@reddit
In the sense of D&D, I think the classic Devil archetype would be what the original guy was saying. Devils will do seemingly “good things” for your character…in exchange for you unknowingly being the means to their end.
Gohan_is_Revan@reddit
Issnt shovel a demon? Wouldnt that mean they have innocents or something of the like? I feel like demons never get a chance to be otherwise by nature but realisticly chaos of the abyss should naturally create good demons. Because chaos isnt defined by a specific alignment. Entropy has no values, but a being born into it has a capacity for unlimited potential
CuntPuntMcgee@reddit
I think the idea is it’s truly chaotic but within an evil umbrella hence Chaotic Evil, they are all inherently evil but the variation of their own internal compasses and actions are so detached from a system of decisions that it’s just always evil.
Pure chaos would be like Limbo.
Seidr4320@reddit
You're talking about Devils , demons are literal sentient clumps of chaotic evil.
Sengfroid@reddit
This opens up some fun hypotheticals. It's a good argument that a being requires the capacity for food in order to be evil, since evil is more the opposite end of a spectrum from good than a specific unique element, in the same way you can't point at any specific color and say that it's the gradient. But what happens when something is specifically an embodied epitome, representative or avatar of the general ~force ~ of evil, like how many fictional characters are the physical representation of dark (itself part of a spectrum)? Is it itself evil, even while it is Evil incarnate? Or is it more in the same category as like a tornado of evilness, just blowing through without being identified by the winds of which it's constructed?
Sushi-DM@reddit
It doesn't make the action itself more or less harmful. We are discussing the philosophy of the being doing the harm. People don't like to wrestle with the idea of nature versus nurture because it makes them uncomfortable due to genetic discussions in real world race conversations. The idea that a sentient being could be predisposed towards "evil" or harmful actions. Though I find it dumb to begin with becauase evil is a matter of perspective. To a Chicken, we are all worse than Jeffrey Dahmer.
Previous_Air_9030@reddit
True enough. We do offer more lenient punishments for young people who commit atrocities because of their lack of understanding. Then again we also put down animals for biting people soooo... it's a crapshoot either way.
All I know is that if there's someone sucking my brains out I don't really care what their motivation was.
F-Lambda@reddit
not in D&D. that would be an erinyes (a specific type of devil).
GoldenGlobeWinnerRDJ@reddit
Well I’d assume there’d have to be some nuisance in the example that person gave, if the demons just literally popped into the material plane outside your house and started stabbing your family to death I don’t think it’d prove “they’re choosing to do evil instead of good” to you. I think at that point you’d just think it was demons being demons.
wattsup1123@reddit
That’s not a demon that’s the Lucifer the devil you dumbass
ArchmageIlmryn@reddit
That's why I like Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous's take on demons. Demons in that universe are formed from the souls of evil mortals damned to the Abyss - so while demons aren't forced to be evil in order to become a demon you have to have already been evil and then survive a brutal mutually destructive competition between the various abyssal larva in order to become an actual demon.
EvaUnit_03@reddit
A DEVIL is what you described. Demons are never fleshed out from a story perspective of the Bible. Just that they were critters that lived in hell before the angels got cast down. And that they ran around causing mischief.
Theories have been they are just q manifestation of hell, but then certain demons actually have personality and do specific things. Others claim they were the souls of other failed 'god projects'. The only thing we 'know' about demons is they are wicked and dont do gods will. And they aren't a fan of anything that isn't them. They are very xenophobic.
Dont_Touch_My_Nachos@reddit
I thought devils in DnD are the souls of the dead who were claimed by the Lords or other devils through pacts and such. Then some were kept locked away and others were used as their workforce. And demons were created by souls becoming lost and sent to the abyss. I could be wrong. It's been awhile since I read the 5e stuff, unless you're talking about an older edition
EvaUnit_03@reddit
That's the biggest issue with DND, every edition they change the lore.
Dont_Touch_My_Nachos@reddit
Oh, you liked how this race worked in terms of what they worship and their motives? Well fuck you We're making a new addition and completely changing it!
Sengfroid@reddit
Lul no. Biblically demons are given almost zero backstory. This is such common thing. Like most "lore" for hell, demons, the devil, Satan, lucifer, et al comes from pop culture or bible fanfic. It's just that the fanfic is so old we call it Classical Literature, but like the amount of shit people spout off about being "scripture" that's straight from Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno is comical.
It's like asking what part of the I Ching explains how to fly using your Qi, and blast off Kamehamehas.
The Apocrypha, now that's a straight up other story. But Cannon The Bible is nowhere near half the shit people misattribute to it
skel66@reddit
That's not what demons are in dnd
overgamer1@reddit
I’m talking Christianity, bud.
skel66@reddit
Nobody else is... The post and the comment you're replying to are about dnd bud
overgamer1@reddit
The comment that we are bolth in the chain of is just about fictional writing as a whole, and fantasy, which includes the Bible. Hope this helps.
SalvationSycamore@reddit
It would be boring to have them be like that every time though. That's why there's a thousand different imaginings of what "demons" are.
QwendletonState@reddit
Good point. Good vs. Evil implies choice. If there isn't a choice, how can they be truly as having SELECTED something incorrectly?
MaddieTornabeasty@reddit
Was it a right angle? Or maybe acute. Surely not obtuse.
metroid1310@reddit
There's definitely some obtusity somewhere in the comment chain
TheDramaturge@reddit
It's not about comfort. If a tornado killed my mom in front of my eyes, i'd be as devastated as if a demon did it. Demons in that setting are the same as a force of nature when it comes to its agency, trying to place a moral judgment to it is pointless. You see a demon? You kill it, or you run or whatever.
AwoTowA@reddit
A tornado is not sentient.
TheDramaturge@reddit
Kind of irrelevant, in my opinion. It is about something's (or someone's) nature. Would you try to appeal to Bundy's sense of humanity?
AwoTowA@reddit
?
TheDramaturge@reddit
I'll try to rephrase. If something always hurts you with 100% certainty with no different outcome possible, you don't plead with it, and you shouldn't expect a different outcome from it. It being sentient or not is not a factor that matters in this equation if it doesn't influence it's actions and change them, which is what happens to demons in this specific context.
AwoTowA@reddit
The demon is still aware of its actions even if that does not affects its behavior. If you only care about outcomes I'm not sure how someone's nature is relevant.
TheDramaturge@reddit
And how does that matter. I insist that if awareness or sentience can't affect the outcome, then it's irrelevant.
AwoTowA@reddit
But what is the difference between a demon and a regular person doing something bad If awareness is irrelevant?
TheDramaturge@reddit
A person can be good or bad depending on its morals and upbringing. A demon can only be evil. It has no saying and no choosing in the matter, it is a spectator of its own existence. Thus, placing moral judgment into its actions is pointless. You either kill it or banish it or whatever it is that people in D&D do with demons, you don't try to plead with it, or appeal to its sense of righteousness because its not there, that's not how they're made.
AwoTowA@reddit
A person also has no saying or choosing in its upbringing.
TheDramaturge@reddit
Well, then we're entering in a complex debate about free will against determinism. If you believe in free will, then a person can always choose goodness even in spite of upbringing because their morals are not set in stone. If you believe in determinism, then technically, a bad person is no better than a demon because neither chose what they are. Still tho, people can be good or bad (even if they can't actively choose what to be in a deterministic world), demons can only be evil, so morally speaking they're no better than cancer or a tornado.
AwoTowA@reddit
So you think tornadoes are also inherently evil?
TheDramaturge@reddit
I think tornadoes are inherently bad for me because their nature is destructive.
AwoTowA@reddit
I suppose that would be our point of contention.
TheDramaturge@reddit
This was a lot of fun. I loved having this conversation with you!
kdhd4_@reddit
This is so off the mark, no, it's not pointless, in fact studying the morals of it are pretty important in the setting, because your actions and your society's will weaken or strengthen supernatural forces and you don't get to decide what's Good and what's Evil, because they're real, measurable forces independent of personal point of view.
TheDramaturge@reddit
If evil thing can only be evil, then its no better than a mortal desease. You don't get angry at the tumor that's killing you.
kdhd4_@reddit
That's not the point. If you are a good or bad person in life, it doesn't change the chances of you having cancer. If your friends are good or evil, it doesn't change the chances of you having cancer.
In D&D you are good or evil or your society is good or evil, do affect the chances of your family being slaughtered by demons.
TheDramaturge@reddit
Well, then the culprit of you being eaten by demons is the actions of the collective, not of the demon itself. The same way someone can have cancer if it lives in a polluted city. It's not cancer's fault you're dying, it's societies for not taking care of the enviroment.
kdhd4_@reddit
Okay, but the cancer isn't evil because it's a natural consequence. The demons are capital E Evil because they're a _super_natural consequence, and no, it isn't the fault of the collective anymore than saying a serial killer is a victim of how society treated them, because demons were humanoid souls in life condemned to the Abyss for their evil actions.
The only thing you're mixing up is the natural and supernatural. Even if they can't make choices they're still Evil because they are literally made out of Evil, without Evil they wouldn't exist in the first place.
TheDramaturge@reddit
This conversation is totally out of my realm of expertise. I concede.
Phendrana-Drifter@reddit
People best not be shaming cultures.
StandardN02b@reddit
Tell me you don't know what a demon is without telling me.
SoupaMayo@reddit
Sure bud, you must be an expert yourself
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Bud, it's fiction. Calm down. There are all kinds of different creation mythologies with different variations of demons.
noblehamster69@reddit
Mycockaintwerk@reddit
Hahahahaha one roasted dude did you make that come back up? Dude did you? I’ve never heard it before. BURRRRNNNNN. Ah man that was so fuckin funny. Are you the same guy who came up with cap? Bro you are so cool will you be my friend
26_paperclips@reddit
Literally how are you the demon gatekeeper
StandardN02b@reddit
A demon is a fallin angel, you dumb fuck. Its pretty much a decision.
barryhakker@reddit
Now imagine he slaughters your family… BUT THEN ALSO FOLDS YOUR LAUNDRY!
TellmeNinetails@reddit
Next time a tornado kills my family I'll devote my life in getting revenge on and killing the WIND and gain comfort from the fact I'm fighitng for justice against evil.
TiesThrei@reddit
Lil' Lisa's Slurry comes to mind
BanzaiKen@reddit
OOP also didn't read too hard. Omeluum is a practically a Paladin by Mindflayer standards but he still eats people who stand in the way of the Society's goals, about once a month. You can even stand I. The way of the Spciety's goals....by refusing to kidnap a Githyanki kid so they can brainwash it and prove evil kids can turn good.
UncommittedBow@reddit
Example: Doctor Who and Missy, aka "The Master", Missy makes an actual, valiant effort to be good, to be an ally to The Doctor...proving that The Master always had the potential to be good...
Which makes the actions of every other incarnation of The Master, especially the next one, that much worse. The Master now knows he can be good, that he has it in him, and it disgusts him, so he delves into even worse depths than ever, full on wiping out Gallifrey as a whole.
MP-Lily@reddit
That happened in X-Men, sorta.
soobnar@reddit
Don’t underestimate the banality of evil and just how good people are at ideologically justifying it to themselves.
EnclaveSquadOmega@reddit
Helghan are like the opposite of this trope. Normal people who've spent too long away from Earth and too many wars against the ISA so when they are given the chance to split a city with ISA they start genociding them.
garliclemonpepper@reddit
Like this?
Marik-X-Bakura@reddit
Sauron actually does consider himself the embodiment of evil, more so than most other villains. He even chose his name because he sees the Lord of the Rings character as the ultimate evil he aspires to.
simatrawastaken@reddit
I was confused until I realized the pterodactyl must be named sauron
Leadfarmerbeast@reddit
Based
Pervasivepeach@reddit
Not exactly related but the Wonder Woman movie had an amazing point where Wonder Woman thought the Nazis we’re being mind controlled by the big bad guy the whole movie, only for one of the soldiers she’s been traveling with to say no. Sometimes normal people can just be awful.
Then in the next scene it turned out all the Nazis were actually in fact being mind controlled ruining the one good message and moment that movie had for a really boring over the top cgi set piece
UglyInThMorning@reddit
It did do a bad job with actually executing on what you’re talking about though, and I highlighted the big reason why.
There were no Nazis in the movie. Lots of people remember it as Nazis, but it was WWI. It just made so many of the Germans cartoonishly evil that it felt like they were Nazis. Honestly I’m not sure why they went for WWI with that movie, it felt like they wrote it as WWII and then backed out at the last second.
Pervasivepeach@reddit
Oh I’m saying it did a shit job. That’s the point of my comment
Micsuking@reddit
They were mind controlled and were just awful. The war didn't end when Ares (that was the big bad in that movie, right?) was defeated despite what WW thought would happen.
BrideofClippy@reddit
I viewed it less as mind control and simply encouraging the worst aspects which snow balled into them becoming monsters. Once you can justify the small evils, the greater evils are just that much more closer.
KJBenson@reddit
Not sure if you know the lore of these guys. But to give some more context for those who don’t:
They are called mind flayers. They are born as a small parasite which eats someone’s brain and then grows squid heads out of a dead body.
To sustain themselves they have to consume the brains and memories of their victims. So a “good” squid boy can’t really exist. Because they would starve themselves to death.
On top of that, they are ruled over by creatures called elder brains, who are just super advanced mind flayers. They control the thoughts and actions of entire squid boy colonies and choose for them what they do, which in universe is always evil.
This squid boy we see above had broken free from his elder brain, and was surviving in a colony of mushroom people surviving off of evil dwarfs and other creatures to survive.
Starbonius@reddit
Truly special individuals, like The Emperor or Umeluum would usually be killed because they have the ability to break off from the colony and become elder brains themselves (pretty much always taking a chunk of their original colony with them) But neither of the exceptional mindflayrrs in bg3 do that. Also if the tadpoles are left untended they form giant monster worms like the hunters from halo do.
CailHancer@reddit
Both the emperor and omeluum are "normal" mindflayers - the ones capable of evolving to elder brain are a special caste, defined by really long tentacles reaching to below the knees. The emperor was immune because he was the flayer to find the prism with orpheus inside who has a mind control protection aura. As for omeluum, he's a wizard and it's noted that mindflayers who can cast arcane magic are naturally more resistant to elder brain influence.
Thunderchief646054@reddit
Oh shit, is that hard lore? I didn’t know that about magic casters and Mindflayer.
Waffleworshipper@reddit
They are usually ruthlessly exterminated by their fellow mind flayers when their magic is discovered because they are less controllable by the elder brain.
Fillet-0-Fish@reddit
It’s worth mentioning that Omeluum is constantly working on a more ethical and sustainable food source for mind flayers.
madsjchic@reddit
I believe if you go down the right decision tree and rabbit hole in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous this comes up with their demon species. Evil is supposed to be their nature and then two demons randomly actually fall in real love and can choose. Calls into question whether felons have had a choice all along or if it’s their society or nature etc.
Nealon01@reddit
Just like us!
DickHydra@reddit
So as in, they specifically choose to be evil?
Do they also know they're doing evil, then? Or are they doing good in their view? Because otherwise, them doing evil for shits and giggles is rather boring.
BannedSvenhoek86@reddit
The Drukhari in 40k keep it pretty interesting.
I mean, who doesn't love a good chair made out of a sentient being that's been engineered, awake and screaming, to remain alive and able to feel pain for eternity? That's pretty neat. Some of them even scream when you sit down if you leave a mouth on them and tip the Haemonculi good.
horse-shoe-crab@reddit
The space elves are a good example of a race that can do good but act like dicks out of their own volition, there is nothing preventing a dark elf from saying "okay my career as a dog flenser is at a dead end" and going back to being a regular elf.
They aren't a different race like they are in D&D, they're just solving their Slaanesh problem by being so gross that not even the literal god of rape wants to touch them. Commorragh is just Space 4chan.
Micsuking@reddit
Don't they get their souls eaten if they just abruptly stop? They'd need a soul stone or whatever the Harlequins use to stave off Slaanesh. Not sure how hard it is for a regular Drukhari to get one of those.
horse-shoe-crab@reddit
Well, they don't drop dead on the spot. They still need to die the regular way before Slaanesh gets them. If they make a pact with a Craftworld for a soul stone, join the Ynnari, or get recruited by the Harlequins, they can stop and face no consequences.
Myllis@reddit
There's many ways to do that.
A perfect example of this would be the saying 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
They don't just begin as inherently evil. They start trying to do good, but have to start pushing limits. "It's only one time. Then I'll stop" "Oh well I did it once already, but that is the limit" And on and on it goes.
Royal_Ghoul@reddit
Good news! That's a major theme throughout The Legend of Drizzt.
an-unorthodox-agenda@reddit
Like people
SalvationSycamore@reddit
Not really. It just requires perspective. That's why a lot of times the "ontologically evil" monsters view humans as insects. Torturing and eating ants is weird and a bit cruel, especially if you clearly take pleasure in it. But almost nobody would argue that it's even remotely the same level of immorality as torturing and eating your fellow humans. That's because we as a species recognize ants as being beneath us. Yet suddenly when demons do it to us it's all "omg, they're so evil and horrible." We hold them to the moral standard that we have set for ourselves.
ComNguoi@reddit
Omg I can't believe I have to scroll that long to find this answer. You are absolutely correct, it's all a matter of perspective. There is no real good/evil at all. People find something evil when it goes against their morals code and that's it. For a sociopath, killing people is not even evil because they don't have any morals to begin with.
Black_Ivory@reddit
okay but like. then it isn't an evil species, just an evil culture.
Grenzoocoon@reddit
Yeah, this comment sort of READS well but just doesn't really make any sense. I only spent a few minutes thinking about a scenario where this might actually have a good reason that ISNT just this creature(s) that did x did a good thing to make the evil thing even worse. Maybe I'll see someone else comment a good example, but I haven't spotted one yet.
pocket-friends@reddit
It could just as easily be the circumstances of an individual’s choices in relation to their specific culture, or even in relation to all the other entities mutually obligated to that culture in a given hereishness and nowishness.
‘Evil’ could also just as easily be the end results of acts of care having been withdrawn due to the way the mutually obligated entities responded to one another in assemblage.
Not gonna lie, this is a really interesting line of though.
Ryan8Ross@reddit
I'd argue it's just as bad if they are hopelessly evil
I think of daleks in doctor who, who can joke and banter but there is absolutely no way in 1000000 years you are going to convince them not to murder everything. It's so hopeless even considering that they could do something good
Imagine_TryingYT@reddit
In general, writers have 2 main issues when writing intelligent species. That being the "Planet of Hats" issue and the "Moral absolution" issue.
Planet of Hats refering to a species being defined only by a couple of rigid characteristics in which individuality straight up doesn't exist. Everyone of this species looks the same, acts the same and believes in the same things.
Moral Absolution refering to the given species all sharing the exact same morals and hardline beliefs with no self awareness, ambiguity or nuance. The species all hold the exact same values, why? Because they do.
TheOutcast06@reddit
It’s why I don’t like writing ontologically evil beings
rekscoper2@reddit
I'm curious then if you would apply this to a truely good species as well like an angel or fairy
How would it work to have something evil choose to do good though? If they prefer to be evil why would they act good?
YourAverageGod@reddit
The geth weren't evil but a product of quarian greed.
Anyways I always wipe the quarians
Smoke_Santa@reddit
it would be a shit story. Stories aren't "le reddit subvert the subverted expectations", you need something to grip the masses and make them attached to something.
mrstorydude@reddit
Hi I’m a fantasy author.
If someone makes a species evil, it’s usually to justify the protagonist not needing to think too deeply about the nature of killing members of that species.
However, there is actually an entire genre of works that are like this. Sadly, the “evil species” in question are… humans(?). It’s called Xianxia/Wuxia/Cultivation and the general trend in this genre is that the cultivators (basically super powerful magic humans based on Chinese mythology) are all capable of doing good things, but often don’t because it’s better for them to be evil to obtain their goals.
For example: in a Xianxia book, it’s often the protagonist’s goal to become a true genuine Chinese immortal. There are a lot of ways of doing this, but oftentimes they may require you to do evil things.
A very stereotypical example in this genre is the human pill stereotype. A lot of people in these worlds often need to extend their lives artificially to get more power and to eventually find a more natural way to extend them. In order to do this, it’s common for a character to murder another person, take out all their bones, and crush them into a small pill they can consume, taking the lifespan of the person they ate and getting a little more powerful.
The entirety of this genre is likebthis, so if you’re interested in reading this kind of dynamic, I would pick up “Reverend Insanity”, “A Regressor’s Tale of Cultivation”, and “Renegade Immortal” in that order.
LennySMeme@reddit
Reverend Insanity and Regressors Tale of Cultivation are really interesting to compare, being almost polar opposites. Fang Yuan (RI) believes that it's okay to plunder others because everyone everyone is equal, himself included. If others try to kill him, that is not evil, but natural. Everything is permitted if it brings you benefits.
Seo Eun-Hyun (RToC) meanwhile believes that plunder is bad because what you take from others can be taken from you and is generally not a nice thing to do. He refuses to use pills, and instead suffers to overcome challenges with his own power, slowly accumulating into a Great Mountain that cannot simply be taken from you.
Biscuitstick@reddit
You have that in Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance. There are these evil ass looking bird monsters called Skeksis and the show makes a point of showing numerous times that they do not have to be the way they are, but they choose to commit acts of evil. You even have a scene where one of them tries to justify their actions to the protagonist and trying to potray themselves as necessary evil rather than murdering parasites.
Heavy stuff for what is essentially a kids show
KazakiriKaoru@reddit
Or be like Demons in Frieren. The Demons are capable of deceit, like an example is them pretending to be messengers of peace, to lower down the Humans' guards. Their ultimate goal being to ask the humans to remove the town barrier as a sign of trust.
They are capable of speech, but mutual understanding can never be achieved because the Demons are in the end, are descendants of monster who cried help.
kmmck@reddit
I would like to recommend this webnovel "I Became an Evolving Space Monster" by 공포의거북이. Its one of my favorite takes on an Evil MC. Its about a human who possesses the body of an evil species (basically a xenomorph). Under normal circumstances, this monster is supposed to be a brainless bullet sponge. However in this book, MC constantly uses manipulation and fear tactics to hunt for survival.
Your comment reminds me of this book because every now and then MC would self-reflect on how he had become a ruthless killer. What really makes this special for me is that he is neither regretful, nor edgy about it. He's in between the moral gray area of accepting his sins but also prioritizing his survival.
PrrrromotionGiven1@reddit
As always Star Control 2 has your back.
Anarcho_Christian@reddit
You'd love Frieren: Beyond Journeys End
ChangingMonkfish@reddit
“I admire its purity. A survivor. Unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality”
RaiderCat_12@reddit
That actually happened in a Duck Avenger (Donald Duck’s superhero persona but even more serious) comic I read a few years ago, in which he finds himself in deep space on a micro planet of Evronians (a nearly pure evil race of aliens that see him as its arch nemesis) that have lost all of their high command in a war with completely stone-cold robots on the planet itself, no idea who PK even is.
So he pretends to be some sort of general sent by high command to get them out of there, and in the process he gets to see their better side: they have a good sense of camaraderie, they are kind to each other, and it’s made very clear that their knowledge and technology would greatly improve the galaxy in general if they weren’t being constantly pushed by their superiors to destroy everything they come across.
And yes, when eventually SHTF, there is one of them who’s specifically pacifist and has been pretending to be dumb the entire time, and so he gets brought back to Earth as the spore he was born from.
itsthateasylol@reddit
That's just humanity, isn't it?
GriffithDidNothinBad@reddit
See: Israel
atxbigfoot@reddit
This is a common trope in hero movies and popular art in general.
Thanos was a good guy, snapping for a good cause, for example.
Unfortunately Right Wing fans have no idea how to interpret actual basic and obvious media, so we end up with trash to avoid their angry boycotts and death threats.
TellmeNinetails@reddit
This. It's like parthenaux but in reverse. What is worse?- to be born evil, or to overcome your good nature through great effort?"
This logic is what I was using to explain why darth vader is more evil than most characters because he KNOWS what he's doing is wrong and he choses it anyway. People didn't like it because (I think it was kid buu or something) Did more damage and is more powerful. But that doesn't make sense to me.
ParticularConcept548@reddit
Woke media has been trying to do that for years now and it failed every time.
untakenu@reddit
But is that species doing the evil thing because it thinks that thing is good?
Goblins raping women to breed with them is good for the goblin, evil for everyone else.
And goblins acting this way is good because it means killing them without hesitation is purely morally good, for us. They have no capability of human good.
DKMperor@reddit
"You wouldn't or a hurricane evil because it destroys your home. It's a force of nature"
Almost every culture throughout history attributed natural disasters to the machinations of evil gods. You quite literally can.
Definetly_Not_Hitler@reddit
I feel like this has been done with daleks in Dr. Who, where they had one turn good and try to turn all of them good, and the rest went "nah fuck that" and literary just show how deplorable they are, and there are other instances throughout the series.
-holier-than-mao-@reddit
I’d be okay with that. Something about a member of a hideously evil but le scientific race taking shelter in the midst of a sandstorm and just mulching orphans, because it will keep the collective alive longer.
No-Atmosphere3208@reddit
What, you got a problem with mulching orphans?! I'll have you know that they are an excellent source of protein!
avagrantthought@reddit
If you want to argue an 'ontological evil' isn't a 'true evil' because they are determined by their nature to do evil, then following ther logic of determinism, even a 'true evil' who has the capacity for both but chooses evil also isn't a true evil because they are predetermined again by their nature and extrinsic (as well as inherited intrinsic) axioms to act evil.
Determinism goes both ways. Or rather, all ways.
wpm@reddit
shut up nerd
Scar_the_armada@reddit
I think if a species is described as good or evil, it should be inherent. I don't really think of the drow as an "evil race" because too many of them are good or at worst neutral, they just mostly worship an evil god. If there can be exceptions then I don't think you can call them inherently anything. I do agree that agency makes evil actions more deplorable, but I find it to be more interesting to ponder on the nature of a race that is thinking but for some reason unable to change their nature.
Caboose848@reddit
Drizzt
KevinParnell@reddit
Isn’t cruelty the point though in terms of being evil?
Nokan96@reddit
That's basically orcs, forsaken undead and some other races in World of Warcraft. But that's mostly because the writing WoW it's schizophrenic and nonsensical many times
GuyNamedWhatever@reddit
In this case, isn’t this true? Mind flayers lack moral agency because an elder brain (which is truly evil) are basically guiding/forcing their communities to wage war and shit. This guy doesn’t have one.
avagrantthought@reddit
If you want to argue an 'ontological evil' isn't a 'true evil' because they are determined by their nature to do evil, then following ther logic of determinism, even a 'true evil' who has the capacity for both but chooses evil also isn't a true evil because they are predetermined again by their nature and extrinsic (as well as inherited intrinsic) axioms to act evil.
Determinism goes both ways. Or rather, all ways.
beansahol@reddit
I kinda disagree... showing capacity for goodness makes a species more relatable and shows that they have 'redemptive' qualities. It allows for things like discourse & hope. A truly evil species by our standards would be one who delights in making humans suffer, or is a significant threat to our species in some way.
I think what you perhaps were getting at is that an organism needs to be sentient in order to qualify as evil, in the sense that they need to have to cognitive tools to understand what they are doing. This is why your example of a hurricane cannot qualify as evil.
I think evil as a moral concept relates more to 'unreachableness' than capacity for good. There is absolutely no way you could persuade a truly evil person or thing not to inflict suffering on others. They would be impossible to redeem.
zombieGenm_0x68@reddit
truke, characters who choose to be evil will always be more interesting than ones who just sort of are evil inherently
pamar456@reddit
I’d punch a hurricane in its stupid ass
Saint-45@reddit
This is called caring way too much about a very specific theme
OldManChino@reddit
Try explaining this to the people on here who foam at the mouth at the mere suggestion humans are the real monsters
limsalominsaenjoyer5@reddit
the amount of people getting unironically ragebaited in the comments is crazy. anon does have a slight point, even if it's just meant to be ragebait. but yeah you lot should take a chill pill and remember that this came from 4chan lol
twinkle-tooshie@reddit
Tell me you know nothing of DnD without telling me you know nothing of DnD.
quikzby@reddit
Missed the point award
ElBusAlv@reddit
Aren't those the guys that invaded super earth?
DualSoul1423@reddit
I know it's bait, but for those who need context:
The character in the post is a Mind Flayer named Omeluum from the game Baldur's Gate 3. Mind Flayers are considered and evil, soulless race of hive-minded aliens hell-bent on killing, enslaving, or assimilating all life in the universe.
However, in many source books for D&D, there have been cases where Mind Flayers have been capable of breaking away from the hive mind and developing their own individual personalities. While most use this individuality to become evil, there are recorded instances of Mind Flayers becoming benevolent, usually as a result of them remembering their past lives before they were transformed into Mind Flayers. There's even evidence to suggest that Mind Flayers do in fact have souls, just unique ones outside the normal jurisdiction of D&D gods.
Basically everything Anon said was wrong in the greater lore of D&D, and he's either ignorant, or is just a troll spewing ragebait.
pamar456@reddit
Interesting explanation though but can the PC pork these characters
01iv0n@reddit
More like they can get seduced by one, he knows how freaky you are so he decides "alright this might keep them on my side."
DualSoul1423@reddit
Depends on how you treat him. I'm always nice to him, so when I turned him down, he seemed legitimately disappointed and apologized for the advances.
I've heard that if you have a lukewarm relationship with him, hell try to seduce you, but if you turn him down then, he'll say he wasn't serious and is thankful you want to keep things professional.
If you have an outright sour relationship with him at that point, he'll just threaten you instead of trying to put the moves on you.
01iv0n@reddit
He's a complex guy. I get the sense he doesn't actually care all that much—he just switches tactics based on whatever he thinks will work best in the moment. I don't think he's entirely malicious, just extremely pragmatic, cunning, and even dispassionate. And for the record, that's exactly why I don't trust the intentions behind the romance.
I mean, are we really supposed to believe that the Machiavellian mind flayer is taking the time to seduce you for any reason other than to manipulate your fragile little brain into loving him—so you’ll willingly stay curled up in the palm of his hand?
DualSoul1423@reddit
Oh, make no mistake. The Emperor is a pragmatist at heart. Everything he does and says is in the interest of his survival, and it's only by chance that any of it benefits you as well. That being said, I'm not convinced he's incapable of caring. He is, after all, a fully aware illithid separated from an Elder Brain. He only sides with the >!Netherbrain!< as an absolute last resort when he thinks he's about to die.
For my first playthrough, I didn't trust him in the slightest, so I tried to manipulate him right back. I was as nice and cooperative as possible, and even shagged him when the time came (Though that was mostly because I wanted to bang an illithid). When I eventually turned against him at the finale, I was surprised to hear him say that not only did he trust me, he thought we had a connection. I'm still not sure if he was being earnest with that statement, but judging by the endings where you side with him, he does actually seem to at least consider you a friend by the end of it all.
He's a really cool character that I feel too many people look at in black or white instead of the shades of grey where he truly resides.
01iv0n@reddit
I completely agree—he’s far more nuanced than people give him credit for. I don’t think the Emperor’s vulnerability or admiration is entirely manufactured. He probably does feel those things, at least in part. But the key thing for me is that whatever emotion he shows is just one facet of a much more calculated whole. He doesn't lie, exactly—he just carefully curates what he reveals to you, picking the version of himself most likely to gain your trust or loyalty. So even if there’s real admiration or a sense of connection, it’s always filtered through how useful he thinks you are. He’s not incapable of caring—he just doesn’t separate caring from strategy.
Gentle_Jim@reddit
You can.
FreljordsWrath@reddit
Mind Blown
PM_NUDES_4_DOG_PICS@reddit
Mind = Flayed
Eugenides_of_Attolia@reddit
It will be if we do not make it to the creche, istik.
Absolutemehguy@reddit
Smooth_Maul@reddit
THEIR BONES ARE UNGUARDED
trashdrive@reddit
Not this particular mindflayer, but a different one, yes.
RedMatxh@reddit
Wait wasn't omeluum in underground city or whatever it's called? Why is the background look different in this pic?
DualSoul1423@reddit
He actually lives in the city, you just first meet him underground because you meet his bf Blurg who is collecting mushrooms in the Underdark. When Blurg sees the party's unique condition, he gives Omeluum a call, who teleports down there to speak with you.
RedMatxh@reddit
I think i mustve killed him in the city then lol
DualSoul1423@reddit
Act 3 Spoilers ahead as to his exact location: ||In Act 3, you can visit an underwater prison called The Iron Throne, in which you can save many people being unjustly held there. Omeluum is also imprisoned there, but in a secluded room that's hard to find. Because arriving at the prison activates a self-destruct sequence, you have limited time to evacuate everyone, and it's easy to miss him. When found, he even demands you save the others and leave him. However, if you free him he can teleport you to safety and gifts you some items for rescuing him.||
RedMatxh@reddit
Ohhhhh. I remember that place. In my first playthrough we bumrushed many locations/events, that was one of them. We were even lucky to finish that. In the second playthrough i didn't even get there because i was doing another kind of playthrough
BowlsDeepRamen@reddit
In the realm of the game, mind flayers don't have souls. Withers, the god of death and soul collector, actually says that they don't have souls to get all the doubt out of the way.
But let's face it, act 3 is a badly written rushed chaos so maybe they planned to build Omeluum up more and explain that he's getting a soul back because he remembers his past life or something
DualSoul1423@reddit
At the end of the game if ||you or a party member undergo ceremorphosisll, Withers will actually correct himself and state that although the original soul is unaccounted for, there is a flicker of something within that remains identifiable as the original person.
Dsingis@reddit
So like the Borg in Star Trek.
ChoiceFudge3662@reddit
What anon said is what’s gonna happen to the vex in destiny because bungie is a group of lazy fucks who injected some insane robot bitch into an alien race that has no personality besides “CONVERT EVERYTHING TO MORE VEX” in order to try and make them “relatable” and “human”, as if a race of ALIENS needs to be more HUMAN.
SnooPredictions3028@reddit
Honestly seems like good mindflayers are a bug and not a feature of the species, which is good since you can get cool characters with solid reasoning for why they are that way, while still having an absolutely vile parasitic species that do horrible things that they must contest against.
MrGrlmReaper@reddit
iirc their diet consist of eating brains, soo sooner or later they need to eat some brains to still alive, but atleast if its a "good" mind flayer it can eat brains of "bad" dudes, something like Venom
DualSoul1423@reddit
The preferred diet of a "Good" mind flayer is that of the terminally ill, or other similarly near-death individuals who wouldn't mind donating their grey matter. Eating only the brains of evil doers will slowly affect their own mind and tilt them towards evil, but consuming the brains of generous commoners will help keep them aligned with good, or at least impartial neutrality.
piazzaguy@reddit
Iirc, The Emporer ate the brains of his rivals and other nerdowells of Baldurs Gate.
Granted he isn't exactly a "good" guy but still atleast not openly hostile and kept his word to the PC.
PrivilegeCheckmate@reddit
See also Robert Englund in V.
Weaponomics@reddit
“Anon is a tourist”
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Even when you look past all the moral philosophy stuff, it's baked into the rules that they can follow a good alignment, which means they're inherently capable of change.
Zesty-Lem0n@reddit
Good to know, one of my biggest turnoffs about potentially becoming a mindflayer is losing your soul, and the same reason I figured trusting the emperor was foolish. If he's just a soulless parasite looking to extract value from everyone then it's a no brainer to avoid him. But I guess that's just how he is, even with a soul, lol.
MeBustYourKneecaps@reddit
Not only that but its he's wrong in the context of the fucking game.
Literally both >!The Emperor!< AND >!Omeluum!< have broken free of the Hive's influence.
DualSoul1423@reddit
Yeah but >!The Emperor!< is a morally grey trauma boy who is a lying, scheming manipulator at the best of times and outright hostile at the worst, depending on how you treat him. I still like to believe that his character is complex enough that he's not outright evil as many people like to claim, but he's by no means a good person. Smash material, but probably not marriage material, you feel me?
Omeluum is a real one though. True G through and through. I'd put a ring on it if he wasn't already churning the calamari custard with Blurg. I wish those two the best.
trajan24@reddit
Just adding to this, the entire point of DnD is that nothing is 100% cannon, you can change and manipulate things as you will in order to tell your own narrative. The monster manual is a guideline, not a bible. If you want to make a world where humans are good paladins and orcs are evil demon worshipers, great, a classic! If you want to make a world where orcs are morally good scientists, and humans are antivaxer luddite barbarians, absolutely, subvert those expectations! Larian had a story they wanted to tell, and they are allowed to manipulate things to do so.
FreljordsWrath@reddit
Not to mention he literally gives you a Ring of Mind Shielding, which could mean it was a spare and he's using it to keep himself safe from the Absolute and whatnot.
zjarko@reddit
From what I remember >!when you meet him later he tells you that it’s just a normal ring and the effect is basically just placebo.!<
He just naturally has a strong connection with magic which lets him evade the hive mind.
holnicote@reddit
Omeluum is a bro, gave me another illithid power that actually helped.
thebiggestleaf@reddit
Omeluum is a bro, he gets a spot in the dream blunt rotation.
G3nghisKang@reddit
Also Omeluum is a >!fucking manipulative piece of shit who will join the netherbrain the moment he doesn't get what he wants!<
Can_not_catch_me@reddit
Thats the emperor no? Omeluum just chills with his boyfriend the whole game
G3nghisKang@reddit
Ah right, my bad, I completely forgot about that guy
RedPilledSoyJackGem@reddit
Thanks for the explanation.
StraightOuttaArroyo@reddit
Then you have Based Chud Howard :
ptjp27@reddit
So they’re gypsies?
kiancavella@reddit
It was good to have you around here before your account gets nuked
ptjp27@reddit
Such is life
The_Knife_Pie@reddit
No, the Khajit actually supply value to society.
ptjp27@reddit
Gypsies perform the same selling your stuff back to you that they stole service.
sdcar1985@reddit
I'll find her. I'll find her if I have to burn down all of Paris!
Nokan96@reddit
To be fair, the khajiit are also based by just being unapologetically like that, specially since they are cats
DubThisGamer@reddit
Khajiit cannot argue against the stereotype if khajiit is exactly that.
Wobbermork@reddit
anon has never heard of an "Adversary"
--SharkBoy--@reddit
Thats exactly who Thaedus is in Invincible
Ven0m121202@reddit
More specific to Forgotten Realms lore, but this is not anything new for Mind Flayers! There is a Mind Flayer NPC from the Out of the Abyss adventure book who is a member of the same organization as this character from BG3.
Crocket_Lawnchair@reddit
Yeah but: I wanna be friends with octo man
chocolatechipbagels@reddit
the genre of "4chan user farms (You)s by reducing and denigrading a niche trope" is getting tiresome
pamar456@reddit
Haven’t played bg3 but can you fuck him or kill him?
Hybrid_Spaniel@reddit
You can fuck a mindflayer, just not that one
PrivilegeCheckmate@reddit
Are tentacles involved?
electricroadwarrior@reddit
How could they not be?
pamar456@reddit
Hot
AbortionBulld0zer@reddit
Larian writing always was and will be a complete garbage for the absolute cretins which their fanbase is.
NordicWolf7@reddit
OP has never read the Bible. Book literally starts with a being made of pure, universal goodness from an omnipotent entity. He rejects his entire existence and rebels against his creator.
"The weird, good one" is an ancient trope in fantasy media, btw. Not a clever subversion, it's an expected one.
Brilliant-Pudding524@reddit
There are at least 3 not evil illithids in canon, and they do have a soul. No sounl is a non canon baldurs gate 3 addition which makes no sense at all
Survival_R@reddit
There have been many friendly mind flares in the past and several in this game
jackofthewilde@reddit
Dosent he specifically say that he isn't a part of the hive mind and bearing in mind there's a potential 5 other free willed mindflayers in that game I don't think Anon actually paid attention to the game.
Darkthunder1992@reddit
Anon has not even spent 2 minutes checking up on forgotten realms lore, and it shows.
retroUkrSoldier@reddit
Jewish trope
all_is_love6667@reddit
antisemitism, so hot right now /s
TellmeNinetails@reddit
Yet they won't let us recruit a goblin. Fucking hell,
SnoopyMcDogged@reddit
Gods damned goblin censorship!
Crazy_Kraut@reddit
I think mindflayers are not evil its their form of survival
1stMembrOfTheDKCrew@reddit
this is the most unrealistic thing to ever happen in a fantasy game
Joelblaze@reddit
It's also super weird to do the "modern woke writers won't let evil people just be evil" thing since all the big bads in the game are just evil.
Anon is whining about a random NPC who's completely inconsequential to the story.
darklightmatter@reddit
What's anon mad about?
Neomataza@reddit
Have their worldview acknowledged that some ~~minorities~~ species are irredeemable and there is nothing that can change that. At least that's what it looks like.
Not saying it has to be a standin for race to OP, it could also be a standin for religion.
Neomataza@reddit
Have their worldview acknowledged that some ~~minorities~~ species are irredeemable and there is nothing that can change that.
Soldier_of_l0ve@reddit
Never getting laid
simplegoatherder@reddit
But you can bang the mindflayer, what's the issue?
-TheWarrior74-@reddit
you can only bang the emperor not omeluum so he angy
rancidfart86@reddit
He thinks that accepting that fictional creatures can be good is a psyop into making him accept minorities
airfryerfuntime@reddit
His tendies cooled down.
Jade8560@reddit
it’s bait or not knowing wider dnd lore
Kiwi_Doodle@reddit
A trope as old as time, nothing to be mad about
TreeGuy521@reddit
Tf do they mean being subversive, "that one guy who's the evil race but chill" is like one of the most common tropes ever for settings with said evil race.
Zeldacrafter_Swagg@reddit
Exactly lmao. I remember Fallout 4 tried two be submersive by offering the first non-chill supermutant companion in the franchise, and he wound up being one of the most divisive companions in the game, with some people stating they would rather have the option to recruit the chill supermutant from one of the DLCs
I think it's just that the recent grift about Frieren being le heckin based show for having no good demon rotted some people's brains
Nokan96@reddit
To be fair, many mediocre writers still pretend to be subversive when they do something like that (looking at you DMC Netflix writers)
TreeGuy521@reddit
Im guessing it isn't there to be subversive and it's because they wanted the enemy to be the US government, but instead of doing something cool like how doom handles hell based energy they wanted to just make the US governments bigots instead.
Nokan96@reddit
Partially because of that, but they also pretended to subvert expectations by doing that, like come one they are fucking demons
TreeGuy521@reddit
I mean sure you can also choose to be angry also that's an option
Writefuck@reddit
This isn't even the first DnD video game to have a friendly mind flayer in it.
LLMprophet@reddit
Friendly mind flayers is played out.
Q_dawgg@reddit
What stupid game is this stupid post about?
lampstaple@reddit
pokemon sword and shield
baudmiksen@reddit
It's about doing stupid things with stupid people at stupid times in a stupid place. Enjoy
WolfWhitman79@reddit
In all of my Dungeon Master Guides I have ever owned, when it talks about monster alignment, it says that when a monster's stats show it to be chaotic evil, that there is some small percentage of outliers that will be neutral evil or chaotic neutral.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Originally, mindflayers were purely evil, like demons. I think it was 3rd edition that allowed them to have an alignment.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Pretty dumb. There are 'good' mindflayers in the DnD lore books. They're not exactly as nice as this guy, but they're not evil like the rest of them. Any monster, aside from demons, can follow a good alignment.
Competitive-Buyer386@reddit
To be honest Mindflayers arent inherently evil, they are like lovecraftian eldritch monsters, they are so far disconnected from humanity that for them their actions are justified because its all for their great plan.
Its like how for orcs raiding and killing is OK because in their culture, those who are too weak to protect themselves dont deserve their stuff
Now for orcs is cultural but mindflayers mind is so exoteric and also an hivemind at some level that ofcourse they are going to do stuff people think its evil but mindflayers usually arent malicious, they just dont care, they enslave and convert countless of people with the same care you'd file taxes.
So a "good" mindflayer could be an interesting thought.
GoatAbuser@reddit
I don't recall where I read it, but I had seen somewhere that this Characters motivations could be considered has "True Neutrall/Neutral Evil", due to some notes or something.
Though I wouldn't mind someone more knowledgeable correcting me
Dwoppy@reddit
There is another mind flayer in the game who fits that description (he’s honestly an absolute shithead if you don’t listen to him) but Omeluum is a cool guy who just happens to be a mind flayer
DomSchraa@reddit
Evil without good is just comical
Hyperversum@reddit
I mean, those just are Outsiders in the context of D&D.
Demons, Devils and the likes. Beings born outside of the mortal realm and made out of the same stuff of their native plane of existence.
Celestials that turn evil fall, they can't remain celestials, nor can any demon ever be Good.
The highest example of a "not evil demon" is a neutral one from the game Planescape Torment, and it's treated as a once-in-a-fuckton-of-years existence that baffles people.
FHFH913@reddit
Also super entertaining (if done right)
Jade8560@reddit
making something evil and trying to justify it is fine, I think it’s overdone but it can be done really well. making something just be as evil as possible for the sake of being evil can be absolutely fucking hilarious if done well and I am all for it
SeaTill1864@reddit
I almost quit the game when this dude started flirting with me out of nowhere
I_Suck_At_This_Too@reddit
In Dungeon's & Dragons Online there is a friendly mind flayer named Fred that lets you respec your feats. He also has appearances in a couple of quests.
pjkl1@reddit
We don’t tolerate Goatmeluum slander in this household
jefflukey123@reddit
It’s entirely possible.