Bentley & Lamborghini: 1% of Audi Group Sales, 60% of the Profits (Q1 2025)
Posted by budgefrankly@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 210 comments
Posted by budgefrankly@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 210 comments
visual_overflow@reddit
Pretty crazy numbers!
Folleti69@reddit
tesla ftw
assblast420@reddit
I knew they were profitable but wow.
slide2k@reddit
Mostly because an Urus is an SQ7 or SQ8. There is so little engineering to it and is sold to a serious premium compared to it. The SQ range also being a premium to a regular Q makes this even more insane.
thetrappster@reddit
RSQ8
Sure-Drama4097@reddit
Touareg
Agree-With-Above@reddit
The platform is from an Audi, but there is also a LOT of engineering and design work for the interior, NVH, suspension, propulsion, etc. It's NOT just a fancier SQ
yetiflask@reddit
lol. it's the same fucking car
Agree-With-Above@reddit
Of course, you are claiming this because you personally test drove both of them, right?
hhhhhgffvbuyteszc6@reddit
He’s right though, I’m an Audi tech and I’ve been under both it’s the same everything except interior, the urus is just tuned
yetiflask@reddit
The moon doesn't exist because I haven't set foot on it. Imagine being this stupid.
gigamiga@reddit
It’s over 100k more than the rsq8 for a slight tune to the engine, transmission, and a new interior
_nf0rc3r_@reddit
It’s the badge. The badge demands 100k
Egoist-a@reddit
It has same suspension, propulsion, everything. It's just surface outside and inside panels. Underneeth is the same car.
dnyank1@reddit
okay so it's a better/fancier S/SQ
oh
MachKeinDramaLlama@reddit
And that engineering was done by the company I worked for at the time. Which notably has no animal on its logo nor an office in Italy.
slide2k@reddit
So you worked for Bentley :p
shellmiro@reddit
Yup. 30-40% margin per car on the Urus.
CMDR_omnicognate@reddit
Kinda makes sense given one of their best selling cars is basically just an Audis with bigger engines and funky body kit for like 5 times the price of a normal one
MachKeinDramaLlama@reddit
I mean, that describes most Lambos for decades now. They only really develop their halo product themselves and even that is full of VAG tech.
assblast420@reddit
Digging a bit more into the numbers:
They sold 2967 Lamborghinis for €895m total revenue and €248m operating profit.
That's €301k sale price per car, €83k profit per car, with a profit margin of 27.7%.
shellmiro@reddit
€173M (70%) of that profit was just from just the Urus alone.
martinjr950@reddit
Why do these profit numbers seem off. I feel like Volkswagen Auto Group generates a lot more profit as a whole.
shellmiro@reddit
€2.9B operating profit in Q1 for VAG group and €248M operating profit for Lamborghini in Q1. 70% of Lamborghini's sales are the Urus.
martinjr950@reddit
So 173M is not 32% of all VAG profit in that quarter then. It would need to be 928,000,000.
shellmiro@reddit
I said 32% of the entire Audi group profit. Audi group is a sub group inside VAG that consists of Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley and Ducati. I also mentioned that the 173M is 6% of the entire VAG's 2.9B profit in the original comment.
martinjr950@reddit
Fair, I mis-read. Thank you for the numbers, I find it very interesting.
shellmiro@reddit
Np.
hopenoonefindsthis@reddit
Confirms my theory that most people don't want a supercar. They want something that looks like a supercar but not one that drives like one.
Maximilianne@reddit
I feel like for Lambo it is the opposite, like the v12 mid engine Lambo can handle like scrap, but so long as it looks like a crazy Lambo and sounds good, it is a great car. I personally don't consider the urus to look like a supercar
AndroidMyAndroid@reddit
The Urus looks like a Q8 in a PS1 game
shellmiro@reddit
It needs to look more sporty than the average luxury SUV. Think of the luxury SUV's before these Super SUVs like the GLS and X7. An Urus looks like a supercar compared to those, and frankly, that's what those owners want.
It's been proven time and time again that people want huge performance and great handling in a daily-able machine. That's what kicked off the craze for the Cayenne all those years ago and continues to this day with the 911 Dakar still selling for a premium.
14u2c@reddit
Audi already already has a better offering there for dailys, the sportbacks.
ossi609@reddit
I agree with your point, but how does the 911 Dakar fit into it? Does the lift make that much of a difference for dailying?
shellmiro@reddit
Very much so. Especially for owners who live in places where the roads aren't the best and suited for a Turbo S or a GT car. I wouldn't say many are buying it just because it's a Dakar but rather buying it because they were already interested in a 911 but wanted something that wouldn't be so susceptible to damage. Not to mention, the suspension is a bit softer as well.
wearymicrobe@reddit
Want a comfortable Lamborghini buy the R8. Was a crazier RSQ8 buy a Uras.
magicnubs@reddit
Agreed. It looks more like a supercar than most crossovers, which of course isn't saying much, but maybe that's enough for the intended buyer. I imagine most buyers just want something that looks expensive, which it mostly does (in no small part due to the badge)
19Black@reddit
This is me. Where the fuck can I drive a super car like a super car other than a paid track (which doesn’t exist near me)? Give me a car that looks like a super car but doesn’t come with the costs and I’ll buy
idiot900@reddit
A few years ago I went to Las Vegas with a friend and we rented a bunch of supercars over a couple days. I came away completely disabused of my childhood dream of owning a supercar. For me they aren't fun to drive for more than a couple hours at a time, even on fun back roads.
rhinoscopy_killer@reddit
Which cars did you drive?
idiot900@reddit
GT3RS, Huracan, McLaren 620R, 488.
All excellent cars in their own right.
rhinoscopy_killer@reddit
To your point in your other comment, did you find that it felt like you were walking them the whole time, because their capabilities are so much higher than what you can reasonably do on the road?
I found that to be the case even with the 370Z. I drove a stick with PS4-S tires and found it to go way too fast too easily. It was very capable, but its limits were so much higher than a regular car that driving at anything near legal speeds didn't feel like anything at all. It felt extremely planted, smooth, and isolated... And boring at anything under 100kph.
idiot900@reddit
That depends on the statute of limitations :)
But these cars are way more than my skill can handle so there is still fun to be had even at legal speeds. But they do not provide enough hours of fun per year to justify the cost - to me.
zarif2003@reddit
All of those are too fast for public roads, you should try them in a track. Or the smarter chpice, get something older/slower
idiot900@reddit
Agree. Needing a track to enjoy a car goes back to my original point (more or less) which is that they aren't fun to drive most of the time.
Bonerchill@reddit
What fun back roads did you drive? There’s like one decent loop nearby, otherwise you have to drive many miles to find good roads.
idiot900@reddit
I drove many miles...both through flat areas and up into the mountains. All the roads certainly looked fun but I don't remember exactly which ones.
mikkowus@reddit
They want the cred for driving something that is hard to drive. But they also want the ease of a normal car. Scammers all round!
BassWingerC-137@reddit
A badge.
butterball85@reddit
That's what happens when you upbadge a q8/cayenne for basically 0 additional development cost
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
You mean the VW Touareg.
butterball85@reddit
The toureg doesnt come with a tt v8 like the cayenne and q8 do
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
wooosh
redditatworkatreddit@reddit
that's not woosh
dnyank1@reddit
it's pretty woosh, they're all MLB platform cars.
peakdecline@reddit
People have taken knowledge that platforms exist into remarkably stupid places.
Take the Toyota TGNA-F SUVs. Sure the 4Runner, LC250, Sequoia, and LC300 are all TGNA-F... all with massively different parts that have tremendous cost differences.
But the frames are not the same, so crash structures are not the same. The axles and differentials are not the same. The suspensions are not the same. The engines and transmissions are not the same. The steering racks are not the same. The interiors are not even the same.
Platforms are basically a collection of hard points that allows production of dissimilar vehicles on the same assembly line (within reason... because ultimately its not logistically possible to bring all these different parts to the same place without issue). They can still be radically different in quality and costs to manufacture.
Ecks83@reddit
Take the Toyota TGNA-F SUVs. Sure the 4Runner, LC250, Sequoia, and LC300 are all TGNA-F... all with massively different parts that have tremendous cost differences.
A more extreme example: The Mk8 Golf and the Atlas are both on the MQB evo platform but nobody thinks that they are even remotely similar vehicles.
roman_maverik@reddit
A lot of modern car companies are like this. For example, Honda builds most of their cars on the HA platform (civic, accord, cr-v, hr-v, acura integra, RDX, the list goes on).
Nissan has built all of their RWD cars and CUVs on the singular FM platform since 2000.
It’s actually more uncommon for specific models to have dedicated platforms than the inverse
hi_im_bored13@reddit
In the same way clar II hosts the current gen x3, 7-series, and iX, platform is just where the manufacturer wants to draw the line, a tourney drives very differently to a cayenne and is clearly a cut below inside & out
the urus does feel more special than the rsq8, but certainly not 100k better and that’s evident in their margin. out of the mlb cohort i’d say they are easily the two closest (with the cayenne turbo gt being the farthest)
dnyank1@reddit
I mean, yeah... kinda? It's a 5,000-6,000 pound, 61" tall blob on factory 21s. I think the Lexus UX is actually taller, for what that's worth.
I'll be the first to admit the Polestar 2 is an XC40.
Tell me with a straight face that a Camry isn't an ES. Or a CRV is anything but a civic on stilts.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
… if you genuinely believe that a 7-series is anywhere close in ride & drive to an x3 there is nothing left to discuss
dnyank1@reddit
if you genuinely believe that those changes were anything other than a natural response to geometry changes (it's longer) and minor component-level swaps between identical hardpoints...
boy have I got a bridge to sell you.
Like, no shit the 7 series rides smooth. it has air suspension.
But, and I cannot stress this enough, every CLAR vehicle BMW sells is the same soup with different mix-ins.
It's a subway sandwich of luxury cars. I don't care that you think your Italian BMT is significantly different from a Veggie Delight... in the scheme of food it's the same, and I'm going to address both as "a footlong".
Plenty left to discuss, including lunch.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
so we changed the suspension geometry, and the interior, and the exterior, and stiffened the whole chassis up, and give it significantly more wheelbase, and significantly better tech, and gave it a nicer powertrain
oh look it’s a different car
dnyank1@reddit
Yet, somehow, it's still the same shit lmao
like, tell me with a straight face a 7 is anything but a big soft 5, which is a fat 3.
add an X if you like stilts, even numbers if you hate doors or cargo room.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
it’s not a rebadged compact crossover nor is it anywhere close in ride & drive to an x3 that’s for sure
dnyank1@reddit
ok custy
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lael8u@reddit
No cause Audi designed this platform, not VW.
OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Touareg
mintz41@reddit
The Typ 7L Touareg came out in 2002 lol none of them are on that platform any more. They're all MLB, which is an Audi platform
lael8u@reddit
You should have scrolled to the 3rd gen...
We're no longer in 2002. All those cars are based the 2nd Q7, launched in 2015 on Audi's MLB platform.
Captain_Pink_Pants@reddit
Atlas... but yeah.
totallwork@reddit
It’s not based on the American atlas lol
Nero_Wolff@reddit
When people are buying them up like crazy why wouldnt they
BassWingerC-137@reddit
Bingo
justin_memer@reddit
Don't forget the Urus.
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
That's what the urus is
andriusjah@reddit
Touareg
lael8u@reddit
Q7. All those cars of based of it.
justin_memer@reddit
I wonder if that's why I mentioned it?
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
The guy you replied to is explicitly talking about the urus, being an upbadged Q8.
Seref15@reddit
With profit margins that high you could steal one and not even feel bad about it.
A-Rusty-Cow@reddit
The only thing stopping me was the guilt
Zexy-Mastermind@reddit
Tbh yeah the profit is insane but I thought the costumers get scammed way harder. This is justifiably imo
mikkowus@reddit
They keep their value pretty well. Cars are often an investment/money laundering scheme or something. Like paintings and un-used apartments bought by Chinese in North American big cities.
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
Lamborghinis are Veblen goods, their value to their buyers is their price and rarity.
er-day@reddit
Consumer.
pq11333@reddit
Who cares. Those rich folks buying them built their wealth by scamming as well.
shellmiro@reddit
They aren't getting scammed if they're voluntarily buying it imo. That's how luxury goods work and the buyers know that too. Nobody thinks a Birkin bag costs 30k to make.
Zexy-Mastermind@reddit
Yeah scammed was too harshly worded, that’s not what I meant. I just meant that I thought that they’re paying even more for the brand / car than they’re actually doing.
An 80k pure profit for a Urus seems better (for the costumer) than what I thought it would be.
shellmiro@reddit
80k per car is probably one of the highest for any car in the world and probably the highest for a volume-ish seller (barring one-off Rolls Royces, Ferraris and such). Ferrari makes about $150k per car. Porsche also makes $100k+ per car on the high end 911s.
Substantial-Limit577@reddit
Depends what you mean by volume - 3K vehicles over a quarter really isn’t a huge amount. There are vehicles out there with 2-5 times the volume which will be making a comfortable 50k per car - and on the other hand, something like the bentayga will be easily over 100k per car on comparable volume. Nevertheless, clearly good performance from the Lamborghini arm of VW
shellmiro@reddit
The Urus production was 2088 units to 829 units of the Bentayga. The Urus SE base price is $273k, but most are specced to 310-320k. The Bentayga's base is 210k and most are specced to 240-280k.
I'd assume margins are pretty similar since they're both based on the same platform. The Bentley might actually have a lower margin due to the higher quality of materials being used in the interior compared to the Urus.
Even if margin remains the same, the Urus is more profitable per unit due to higher revenue per unit.
Which other car sells 4-10k units with a 50k margin per car?
Substantial-Limit577@reddit
I’d suggest the car which kicked off this entire Luxury SUV craze is a good place to start - the Full fat Range Rover sells somewhere between 60-70k units per year. And it’s a well known secret that that car has propped up JLRs profitability for a long time.
shellmiro@reddit
Full fat Range Rover sold 77k units last year. It starts at 107k and goes up to 250k-ish. A huge, huge chunk of those are mid level non-SV models that sell for 150-160k. There's no way that they're making 30% (50k) on those cars. That would be higher than the Urus, Bentayga and Cullinan on a percentage basis. They might be making more on the high end SV trims but those are a small % of the total full range rover sales.
nimama3233@reddit
It’s funny that for a Lambo you’ll pay the price of a corvette in the markup alone just to lose to it in a drag race
Historical_Lynx_2674@reddit
Ferarri reported 28% operating profit margins for FY2024.
I'm impressed Lamborghini is so close considering the difference in prestige..
Jack-of-the-Shadows@reddit
Lambo has lots of synergy advantage due to VAG platforms. Like, their margin is so high because its cheaper for them to make the same car than it would be for Ferrari.
AncefAbuser@reddit
Lamborghini has the Vagina parts bin to pillage. It makes it easy.
Ferrari's average selling price is much higher.
shellmiro@reddit
And so is their profit per car. They do nearly $150k operating profit per car on avg
klowny@reddit
Lamborghini has a deep Porsche/Audi parts bin to pick from to save on costs.
IrnBroski@reddit
im sure 90% of that profit is the bodykit they put on the rsq8 for 100k
Ragnaroknight@reddit
I'm genuinely shocked the Urus is so popular. I feel like it kills the point of buying a Lambo.
When I see one I'm just like "oh it's another SUV" it feels like the prestige isn't there even though it's an expensive vehicle. It doesn't turn heads, it just doesn't stand out much, it's a lot of money to pay for a badge that might not even bee noticed.
BroccoliRoasted@reddit
Recently I flew into Phoenix and in the arrivals pickup area there was a green Urus driven by a gorgeous blonde woman, presumably on her way to pick up someone from their flight. I can assure you many folks on the sidewalk including myself noticed.
angrylawyer@reddit
yea, I looked this up a while back and motortrend got a 1'41 around laguna seca in the lambo urus; then I look back a few years and see they got a 2008 m3 around in 1'43. So that $200k italian exotic sport suv is...2 seconds faster than a 15yr old m3 around a track.
when people only care about 0-60 times though, I guess everything's the same; fat sticky tires, launch control, electronic suspension, dct's, and then they get that 3.x number they can print at the top of their spec sheets.
A-Rusty-Cow@reddit
I think there is a huge disconnect between enthusiast and the average joe. Is you dont think Susan or Larry is breaking his neck checking out a Urus youre just mistaken. Also not many people in the market for a Lambo or Ferrari care about the performance. They want the badge.
sorter12345@reddit
My wife’s favorite car is urus. We don’t have money to buy it ofc, but if we get rich that would be the top item to buy for her.
strongmanass@reddit
It may not turn heads next to a Revuelto, but it definitely stands out in regular traffic around a RAV4, X5, Rogue, etc. As for its popularity, people want a Lamborghini they can use more often than a loud, stiff, low two seater with no storage.
Ragnaroknight@reddit
I mean yeah, it stands out next to a RAV4, but we are also "car guys" who are probably more inclined to notice one. I don't think most people will. Whereas a regular Lamborghini, you certainly don't need to be looking out for it. I mean at least it's not the Ferrari Purosangue that just looks like a stretched out Mazda.
As for wanting a Lamborghini that's usable, I feel like that's such an oxymoron, I always felt like being practical was the last reason to buy a Lambo.
But obviously, it's worked out well for them, so clearly I'm the dumb one lol.
Vorcia@reddit
I wanted to chime in bc I'm in the middle, I'm more of a driving enthusiast than a car enthusiast and the Urus doesn't stand out to me in traffic. If I'm stock in gridlock, I'll notice it bc of the flares, but if I'm just driving, they're just random cars in traffic to me.
InFocuus@reddit
They basically like Robin Hood - take money from rich, give cars to poor.
shellmiro@reddit
The Urus and Bentayga are really like the "Porsche Cayenne" moment for their respective brands. 70% of Lamborghini's revenue is from the urus.
strongmanass@reddit
Add the Cullinan consistently being Rolls Royce's best-selling model shows how silly those brands were to turn up their noses at producing an SUV for so long. They (Bentley especially) ceded the most in-demand vehicle segment to Range Rover for years because they thought it was beneath them.
Thunder_Wasp@reddit
All the rich people in my area are trading in their AMG G-wagens and getting Cullinans.
Plyphon@reddit
Gotta keep up with the Jones’
shellmiro@reddit
Yup. The Urus in 2017 was definitely a light switch moment in the super and super luxury SUV space. Shows you why McLaren is so desperate to do a SUV now.
strongmanass@reddit
I wonder if it'll be like the Urus for Lamborghini or more like the DBX for Aston Martin, which is a third of their sales but not the cash cow they hoped for. Either way it looks like the CYVN merger will give McLaren what they need.
Plyphon@reddit
That’s more of a brand position issue.
You rarely, if ever, see someone with turkey white teeth, a Louis Vuitton cross body bag with a taper fade haircut stepping out of an Aston Martin.
And that’s a good thing, just not for their sales!
Hustletron@reddit
I think Cayenne is where they found the light switch while fumbling in the dark, too.
xstreamReddit@reddit
Just because they make a lot of money doesn't mean they should be made.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
And what is disappointing is Bentley had already given it a go decades ago in the form of the Dominator for the Sultan of Brunei’s collection.
And they only did it because they were in financial trouble, it was a free 40mil his two favorite brands
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Dominator is such a good name compared to Bentayga
strongmanass@reddit
That was an...interestingly styled car. But it's odd that they couldnt see the potential back then. I wonder if they could make a lucrative coachbuild mini program inspired by the Sultan's old commissions. He essentially singlehandedly saved Bentley and Rolls Royce from bankruptcy and allowed them to limp along long enough for the Germans to buy them and turn them into the profit machines they are now.
Wsswaas@reddit
No wonder even austin martin went there
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I'll need to find the statistic again, but I saw an article a while back that stated that Lamborghini has sold more units of the Urus than all other vehicles in their history combined. Yes, that includes the Gallardo and Huracan.
OhHelloPlease@reddit
I went to the Lamborghini museum and factory last Sept when I went to Monza - Got to see the production floor for the Urus; they said they were targeting building ~26 units/day
shellmiro@reddit
That's true. Nearly 90k profit per car as well. Bonkers numbers.
big_pizza@reddit
The €537M figure quoted in the article is just for the Audi Group, Volkswagen as a whole had €2.9 billion in operating profits Q1.
shellmiro@reddit
My bad, I had misread that. I corrected the comment. It did seem a bit exaggerated at first to me as well.
itsamemarioscousin@reddit
As big_pizza said, this article is about the Audi sub-group within VAG - Audi, Lambo, Bentley, Ducati.
KetchupOnThaMeatHo@reddit
So the profit margins on these vehicles are huge. In other words, you're paying for the name and not the cost/quality of production.
tututuco@reddit
plot twist, the people who buy those cars pays dor the name and prestige of the brand, so they can say that they are better than you
enthusiasts percentage of buyers must be really, really low
fhs@reddit
They don't care about flexing on us, they care about flexing on their similarly wealthy friends
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
I doubt anyone is buying an Urus to flex the badge - they can do the same thing with a Cayenne and spend a whole lot less money to do it if that was their primary motivation. It's a pretty good bet that the vast majority of Uruses (Uri?) belong to people who have some other significantly less practical supercar in the garage next to it.
JALbert@reddit
I live in a HCOL area and see multiple Porsches whenever I go for a drive. Lamborghinis are much rarer, although I did see a Urus going through a gas station car wash last time I filled up.
shellmiro@reddit
Not really. Lots of flexers buy the Urus. The Lamborghini badge is considered way more flashy than a Porsche one. The Huracan used to be the Instagram flex machine but has now been replaced by the Urus (belovedly called the "Lamb Truck") due to cheaper leases and running costs.
And yeah, people who are actually wealthy enough to afford these cars use Urus as a daily alongside their weekend supercars. Same for the Purosangue.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The whole car YouTuber/Instagrammer flex scene really isn't my scene, but isn't the stereotypical flashy SUV the G-Wagen? The problem with the Urus is that I have my suspicions that most non-car people would have absolutely no idea what it is, which kind of defeats the entire purpose.
Whereas everyone pretty much knows what a G-Wagen is, especially given how shouty their side-exhausts are.
shellmiro@reddit
I'd argue that the G buyers' group consists of more wealthy people vs instagrammers compared to the Urus' tbh. Go to any upper class neighborhood in America and you're guaranteed to spot many people driving around in a 0-3 year old G63.
boomerbill69@reddit
You're definitely correct, but there's certainly some overlap in the instagrammer category as well. Unsurprisingly, turns out that some instagram flexers like the G more and get that and some like the Urus more and get that - even the flexbros don't all drive the exact same car!
Where I live there seems to be a bit of a racial split too as odd as it is. Rich white people drive G-wagons, rich asians drive Uruses (Urii?).
shellmiro@reddit
Yes absolutely. That's why I mentioned that a larger percent of the customer base are flexers. Both the cars have large flexer userbases given their popularity.
MumpsyDaisy@reddit
Everybody knows about Lamborghini, just having that badge on an SUV tells people all they're interested in knowing
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420bIaze@reddit
Lamborghini is a lot more of a flex as a badge than Porsche
JC-Dude@reddit
I mean, we all know that. I'm reasonably sure most of the buyers do as well. That's how ultra luxury goods work.
Frat_Kaczynski@reddit
Yeah cars are the new supreme. If you feel like you don’t have any personality or style you can spend way too much money on an audi to hopefully fill that hole of yours
gumol@reddit
that's a big statement to throw in a car enthusiast subreddit, where lots of people buy expensive cars
Frat_Kaczynski@reddit
There’s definitely cool expensive cars, not the urus though
probablyhrenrai@reddit
The Urus' brakes really are cool though (10-piston calipers and 17-inch rotors is insane), and if they're being bought in the numbers that this thread implies, then maybe Urus-based BBKs might be a thing in the future?
Nero_Wolff@reddit
Their size and cost might make them a bit tough to pull off for most sports cars. Whats the smallest wheel that fits around a Urus’ ccb front rotor?
JC-Dude@reddit
An Audi is already a product where you pay a lot for the brand. VWs are built on the same tech, yet people choose to pay more for Audis. If everyone just looked at value we'd all be driving Dacias, yet that's not the case. You're looking at it from the perspective of a regular person, for whom spending $100k vs $300k for a car is a big difference, the sort of people who buy cars like this don't care about the money. They have so much of it they just pick whichever one they like the look of more. Probably helps them get their foot in the door for the more desirable stuff as well.
CortaCircuit@reddit
Obviously...
jerpear@reddit
The platform mate Q8 and especially VW Touareg are selling for massive discounts. Definitely shows the general direction of the economy, rich getting richer and a compression of the middle class.
Bigbadbrindledog@reddit
No. The Q8 and Toureg are overdue for a new model and aren't competitive in their segment.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
maybe, but it’s also showing how outdated of a product the Q8 is in an extremely competing segment. the cayenne, x5/6, GLE are going strong
That and I’m not sure a 80k+ car is middle class
kyonkun_denwa@reddit
TIL the Q8 and the Touareg are “middle class” cars
MisterEinc@reddit
They'll stop making the "affordable" options all together.
grilledcheeseburger@reddit
For Lambo, it's all about the Urus. Mechanically it's not that much different than an Audi, but sells for significantly more.
TheRedditaur@reddit
100%, I doubt the margins on their supercars are anywhere near as good.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
The margins on their supercars are likely to be massive - it's just that they comparatively don't shift many of them while they move a lot of Urus per year.
People give the Urus grief for being an RSQ8 Sportback in a Zegna suit, but that was also true of the Gallardo and Huracan which (apart from the very early 5.0L Gallardos) were mechanical twins to the Audi R8.
Bigbadbrindledog@reddit
I always thought of it as the opposite, Audi leveraged what they could get from Lambo to make the R8. Im not sure if that is reality or not.
RedAero@reddit
I mean, I give those the same grief too. Lambo hasn't made a car from the ground up since the Countach, maybe the Diablo pre-AWD.
grilledcheeseburger@reddit
That's because people like the baby Lambos. As for the Urus, I'm still hoping they find a way to cram the Revuelto's V12 inside one for an SVJ to compete with the Purosangue.
AncefAbuser@reddit
They'd need a new platform. Their VAG hand me down can't fit that package. The new V12 is a big chonk.
shellmiro@reddit
Unlikely to ever happen imo. Their next model in development right now is an EV SUV-Coupe-Sedan contraption that'll release in 2029. Until then they're gonna keep banging out their regular production models and plenty of special editions.
FATTEST_CAT@reddit
Profit margins are usually measured in percentages. While 27% is absolutely a great profit margin for a luxury vehicles, its not as amazing as i thought it would be, especially for a hyper luxury low volume brand.
I am only familiar with the motorycle industry, not the car industry, and I know well and good that audi would have lower percentage margins than Lambo, but I would have bet that the majority of the profits total would have been from Audi even with significantly lower profit percentages per vehicle.
I wonder if they are having to shrink margins to deal with the shrinking of their middle class buyer pool, having to offer more for less to maintain volume. But with the hyper rich getting richer, bentley and Lambo aren't suffering nearly as much, and can absorb huge profit margins.
At the same time I expect a push towards the bottom for Audi and the mid tier luxury brands, offering lower price enteries and degrading quality/shrinking margins to keep them affordable. Turning them more and more into the same business models as the volume brands, but trying to win over buyers with hints of luxury and former glory.
Less-Amount-1616@reddit
Who really thought otherwise? That's pretty much every luxury good. You pay a buttload more for diminishing positive (or even arguably negative) marginal returns as you go up the price curve.
RANDY_MAR5H@reddit
It's not like there isn't a VW logo stamped on most Bentley parts for the past 15 years...
hnwy@reddit
You’re not necessarily wrong, but they reached a point where they can charge this kind of premium because of prior investments, whether that’s quality of cars or brand equity. If you look over the long term, the margins probably aren’t that crazy. But after a certain point, I’m sure it becomes mainly about maintaining brand equity.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
veblen goods doing what they do best. parting people from cash
Dyep1@reddit
Aka ur getting railed on the price
nevergonnastawp@reddit
The profit margin on the Urus must be insane.
Trev9667@reddit
there everywhere in my town
Shins@reddit
Can't tell if it's because the rest of the VAG group are doing too poorly or if the ultra lux SUVs are THAT profitable
A-Rusty-Cow@reddit
Yes
assblast420@reddit
That's also in the numbers, Audi has a 1.5% profit margin on their cars.
That includes cars that I assume have a higher margin like the SQ-series, S and RS-series, etc. Seems really low to me.
PRSArchon@reddit
Historically it is very low, Audi used to be a cash cow for VAG. I guess times have changed but i didnt look jnto recent numbers myself.
boomerbill69@reddit
Explains why the new Audis are one of the worst examples of cost-cutting when compared to prior generations.
Shins@reddit
Audi's sales numbers have been quite poor in recent years especially in the EV department. They play a distance third to the old BBA Trinity now
tharussianphil@reddit
lol I wonder how much of that is the urus.
THE_GR8_MIKE@reddit
Makes sense. Those $300,000 cars don't cost close to that to make. A $25,000 car, however.
turboash78@reddit
God bless rich people.
OGAzdrian@reddit
I always thought it was VW group not Audi group
budgefrankly@reddit (OP)
Audi is a subgroup of VAG. This article is looking at that subgroup only.
OGAzdrian@reddit
Ahhh gotcha, missed the focus on Audi part
turb0_encapsulator@reddit
Audi is such an absolute mess right now. They should probably fire the CEO. It's like they have purposefully removed every aspect of Audis that made them special. Have you seen how crap the new interiors are?
hpshaft@reddit
The Urus was Lamborghinis "Cayenne" moment. And ultimately VWAG learned to build 5 completely different vehicles on the same chassis.
Everyone can say "the urus is just an Audi." Well, yes. And no.
The MLBEVO chassis is shared from Cayenne, Q7/Q8, Bentayga/Urus and Toureg. But each car gets different spring rates, chassis bracing, various levels of sound deadening and "tuning" of ESC/ABS, etc.
Cayenne GT and Urus are probably the most related as their 4.0s are built in Weissach. All other 4.0s are built in an Audi plant in Germany.
Interiors are bespoke, as the Urus and Bentayga have very little exposed plastic, as with Cayenne. The Q7 line is mostly plastic.
I've driven nearly all of them and they do FEEL different, but not by much.
And truthfully, anyone buying an Urus - doesn't care that it's nearly as good as an RSQ8 or a Cayenne Turbo SE Hybrid. It has a Lambo badge, and that's all that matters.
That's the whole idea. People buy brands. And brands sell cars.
the_house_from_up@reddit
This doesn't really surprise me. An RS Q8 is $135,000. A Urus costs $100,000+ more and under the skin, is essentially the same car. They understand that there are people who will pay a premium price for a premium badge (logic be damned), and so they take advantage of that and get huge margins as a result. It was the same thing with the R8 and Gallardo/Huracan.
eggdropk@reddit
This is the game that Jaguar is trying to get into.
Percolator2020@reddit
Not surprising when the SUVs are tarted up VWs, the brunt of R&D cost is borne by VAG as a whole. It says more about how catastrophically little profit they are making with the rest of their products.
LowSkyOrbit@reddit
I can't understand how car manufacturers can survive on such razor thin profit, especially when banks are just giving away 7+ year long loans. Then again Chrysler has through the wringer since the 1980s.
boomerbill69@reddit
The manufacturers are the ones who own most of those banks, so that's where the money comes. Also parts.
Its risky though of course, look at Nissan and what happens when you become a manufacturer who relies entirely on your financing arm to be profitable.
shellmiro@reddit
Huge huge huge amounts of volume that's how. VAG as a whole did €78B in revenue in Q1 and €2.9B in profit. That's about 3.7% in operating profit. All these numbers are massively down compared to previous years as expected.
Shomegrown@reddit
I mean sort of, but it's platform sharing done right. It has to be engineered from the get-go to be able to perform at the Cayenne/Urus level. So Audi benefits by using a platform more capable than they need and Porsche/Lambo get a turnkey platform that takes minimal engineering to bring to market.
Cadillac couldn't just throw a bunch of money at a Traverse and come up with something that could compete dynamically with a Cayenne/Urus. It takes more than "tarting up".
rebelshibe@reddit
From that angle, the Urus looks a lot like the Buick Envista.
PotentialFine0270@reddit
Eat the rich
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Both are really better than Porsche.
bozoconnors@reddit
Your lack of nuance in that obvious assumption is... telling.
AncefAbuser@reddit
The Cayenne Turbro is actually the best one of the three as an all around package.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
They'd want to be given their price point. Not that something like the Cayenne is exactly what you'd call cheap, but the Cayenne is a hell of a lot cheaper than an Urus or a Bentayga.
peopeopeopeo10@reddit
Shows how much of a rip-off the Urus is...
Can-t-ban-me-lol@reddit
That's what happens when you sell a Touareg with a body kit for 300k
corn_sugar_isotope@reddit
I thought they seemed a little over-priced.
phatmatt593@reddit
Kind of a nonsense article as many platforms are shared.
kon---@reddit
Tells you the margin on those vehicles is comically high.
They're not exotic or in such demand that an exorbitant price is warranted. But look, plenty of stupid on the plenty so, those brands will continue to slap wild ass premiums to the price.
QTom01@reddit
Expect to see businesses/products catering more and more to the rich, as wealth inequality continues to get worse it's going to keep being more profitable to target the rich than normal people.
Ok-Improvement-3670@reddit
That Lamborghini package on the Audi is pure profit.
neotekka@reddit
So it's clearly showing that Bentleys and Lambos are not worth the money then!
Z_0_Sick@reddit
Most insane profit margins there is apparently