Property sharing being unfair in the Balkans
Posted by Fluid_Intention_875@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 67 comments
What do you guys think about the practice that exists to this day in many Balkan countries where sister is supposed to leave all property to her brother after she gets married. If something bad happens to her in the marriage she's supposed to find a way to buy an apartment or build a house on her own while brother gets everything served on a platter. Anyways please dont start with "that doesnt happen in my country, what are you talking about" blah blah. Its a common practice among South Slavs and many Albanians i would say. Especially Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosniaks and Albanians.
ericsauthoritah@reddit
She’s always welcome home? And usually these are land and houses on which the brother is staying and is the one who is maintainig it and held responsible for it, how isn’t it fare that he’d also de jure own it?
Of course you can’t generalize, but in the scenario above its fair for the person who’s staying on the land to own it but also to honor his closest relative as always welcome and as their own home too
Few_Bar9654@reddit
yeah, everyone in the balkans (especially the rural and uneducated folks where this mindset is prevalent) owns lots of land and multiple houses on it. even in such a case, why not leave half to the sister?
it's more like this - the family owns a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment or a small house. then the parents die and the brother gets it (or already is living there with his family), while the sister gets nothing.
what if the sister gets a divorce and needs a place to live with 2 children of her own? how are they all gonna fit there?
or what if the sister doesn't marry?
and why should she now have to rent or buy the entire thing by herself while her brother got it on a platter?
that's why the parents' place should be sold and both should get an equal part.
ericsauthoritah@reddit
Sell to whom? Do you seriously believe most of these houses are liquid, only worth they have is to the original owners. 99% of them don't have a sale value and person who's not living on it or not managing it would literally be an asshole to try to sell it outwards or blackmail relative into buying it.
Yes, in case of apartment it is fair to be split because these are much more liquid.
No, you are not entitled to other people's things, not even your parent's.
No, not everyone is able to get equal share of everything, that's something you have to learn early on and that someone may get sneakers today and you'll get them when there's money available once again.
No, she can't claim equal rights to something she didn't live on for a long time over brother who continued living and developing it
No, the brother who inherited it also can't claim full ownership of it and not let his sister stay in case of need because it's "his"
No, they can't move someone out in case both stayed because of their gender
My argument is in case of sister who married and moved away. Do you think life choices don't have consequences? Do you also think that people don't have empathy and love between each other, especially siblings?
In normal and stable scenarios it makes perfect sense, in edge cases that you're arguing against of course not. But that's why there's understanding and ability to readjust the situation, build a new house on the property for the sister etc.
Not possible? Then you have much much larger problem than just the fucking house
And please stop assuming moral superiority over less wealthy parts without understanding how such practices come to be. Yes, many will abuse them and that should be fought against, but they were in place not because someone is stupid or uneducated but because that's the only thing that made sense
Few_Bar9654@reddit
the only one here asuming moral superiority or superiority in any kind is you.
i never said that.
how do you know what I understand and not understand? i perfectly understand how these practices came to be and are still in place, both from personal experience (my dad's from a village with such a practice) and from educational research.
the only one acting entitled here is you.
ericsauthoritah@reddit
Maybe I did, sorry for that, excuse me for putting words that you haven’t said either but I assumed by implication.
How isn’t it justified? Can you please give an example on what is the alternative to village household inheritance that makes sense long term? I honestly don’t see one, and I’m talking from perspective of someone who will most likely reject inheritance rights in favor of my siblings
Few_Bar9654@reddit
the point is - we all know how this came to be, and even still, then it put women in an unfavorable position where they would be passed on to another family, where she won't have a say and would be 'the last whole on the flute,' as our people say, and if she were to be abused and mistreated, she still couldn't come back home due to 'shame' of a divorce and the property issue.
it used to make sense in ideal or good situations BACK THEN.
the problem is that the brothers still expect that (and parents, too), even when we're talking about apartments in a city, and both the brother and sister have moved out of the parents' home.
it's not as prevalent as it used to be, but it's definitely still a thing, and it shouldn't be.
ericsauthoritah@reddit
I don’t think abuse and shame is that much prominent or maybe i’m just living under a glass, but why would you want to return to someone who’d rather care about “shame” rather than that you were abused to the point you had to fucking run away. My point is you wouldn’t have anything functioning if most of the country was so selfish and their life so delicate that their closest family running from abuse would ruin it.
On other point, I think that we do agree on the apt inheritance, i see it as item like any other, comparable to a car but am not sure on your thoughts on village homes. That’s where I still stand with my point that splitting is not possible, its either full inheritance to one person or agreement to move it to one and help build things out for the other on the same plot of the land (regardless of gender because i’ve seen both situations)
Substratas@reddit
Uhmm she what???
thatsexypotato-@reddit
Expected for Albanians here… I even had a cousin tell me to give him our parents property since my parents only have three girls and we don’t need it anyway since we will all marry out
ORaspberry@reddit
Whaaat?
Are you going to do it?
thatsexypotato-@reddit
Of course not why should I?
ORaspberry@reddit
pdonchev@reddit
I don't know about other countries (though I suspect it's the same) but in Bulgaria all heirs of the same order (children, parents, souses) have the same standing regardless of their sex. Not only that, but even if someone gifts a property to a person of their choosing, all potential heirs can sue, and realistically win, to reverse the gift. I have heard about people having a favorite child and gifting more to them, but the favorite child is not a boy or elder more often than not.
TLDR: your premise is false.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Legally this is probably true in many countries. The issue that OP is talking about is that girls are pushed to sign a document that says they leave all their inheritance to their brothers. And if they don't it's considered a scandal.
pdonchev@reddit
Such a "document" would bear no legal value whatsoever in Bulgaria.
And as I said, it hasn't been a practice to leave inheritance to only one kid for at least several generations and when it rarely happens it's not preferably the boy, or the elder.
ZamlataBG@reddit
I call BS on this part.
pdonchev@reddit
Declaring that you reject future inheritance has no legal value. If you already inherited it, you may gift it, but gifts can be reversed.
ZamlataBG@reddit
Have you ever attended an inheritance hearing?
pdonchev@reddit
Yes. You can reject inheritance, of course, but after the person is already dead. Usually done when the debts are larger than the inheritance. An upfront declaration is of no consequence.
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
So if let's say if someone didn't have good relations with their sons and wanted to gift the house to a charity, it gets reversed?
pdonchev@reddit
It could be, realistically. Not automatically but realistically.
That's why many people do a fictitious sale in such situations (and that is why property scams are always sales, never gifts). The fees are higher for a sale and there are concerns with proving the source of "money", but sometimes it's worth it.
Fluid_Intention_875@reddit (OP)
Exactly. It can sometimes be such a big of a scandal if a woman takes her part that everyone would say : " Oh she took her brother's property".
IvanMSRB@reddit
I know of few cases from the 70’s where the oldest son would inherit everything. Younger brothers would get the “highway” and sisters would get dowry and leave home forever.
This happened in Dalamatia among Serbs which I know from first hand, but I have feeling it was the case with Croats too. For centuries this was the way for the whole western Europe.
Quiet-Pressure4920@reddit
I notice it a lot in predominantly muslim areas of balkans (Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania and the Sandzak area of Montenegro and Serbia). It has it roots from Ottoman Empire and the way they did it. Overall, completely unfair, completely uncalled for and completely unacceptable.
I would go as far as to prohibit it by law, or that daughters MUST inherit and arent allowed to gift it to their brothers after that. This because I've noticed even a lot of women in these regions have normalized it (obviously cause thats what the society convinces them) and think this is how it should be.
I can testify that women in these areas are 1000 more capable than men. Men are coddled and given everything on a silver platter while women are left to fend for themselves basically. Patriarchy in these areas needs to die.
We are in Europe, not fucking Afghanistan.
Fluid_Intention_875@reddit (OP)
Ok i get you and i agree with you on most of it but no, its not only a Muslim Balkan thing. I wish it was that simple. Its more of a highlander dinaric Balkan cultural structure. Besides even sharia (which i despise by the way) gives woman a right to inheritance while the above mentioned culture does not.
DomPerignonRose@reddit
How common are multi generational households in the Balkans today? I wonder if there is a correlation between multi generational households and inheritance.
Growing up and visiting family in the Balkans, I saw that it was the norm. I know some of my cousins got jobs in the Middle East for a period of time and I suppose made good money and subsequently purchased their own apartments or homes. Multi generational households is not really common in Australia unless of Indian or Chinese backgrounds.
Quiet-Pressure4920@reddit
15-20 years ago it was the norm (for Serbia at least, idk about other countries as i never lived there). Nowadays its a huge no unless you come from a very poor family and have no other option. 90% of middle class and obviously rich people will move out the moment they marry and have their own place.
Fluid_Intention_875@reddit (OP)
Exactly. Good point you've made here. Multi-generational households are still common in most central parts of the Balkans, mostly among dinarid western Balkan Slavs who live in mountainous/highland regions. It doesnt even have to be villages, even cities in these parts have simillar practicies. As for most of Bulgaria, Greece, western Turkey, Albania proper, Slovenia i wouldnt say they have these practicies or they've lost them. At least judging by the comments.
jaleach@reddit
Was the family of the husband expected to provide for his wife should she become a widow? Seems like they'd almost have to.
This gives me some food for thought because I was reading the translation of an interview with a Bosnian woman and she went on and on about how a woman needs to have her own money and her own way to help provide for her family and take care of herself. I thought it was just grrl power stuff but in light of the above maybe it's a response to this old practice.
Few_Bar9654@reddit
it's a response to a lot of stuff. sometimes, women were (and in some rural places, still are) forced to put up with abuse from alcoholic husbands because their family wouldn't take them back because the son already has a family of his own in their house and it's a disgrace (for a woman only ofc) to get divorced. women from the countryside thus didn't own a single home they lived in. some still don't and don't have income. that's why the bosnian grandma or aunty said that, as it was drilled into women for those particular reasons and girls grew up seeing all sorts of shit.
jaleach@reddit
Sobering. Imagine going through life with that uncertainty hanging over your head. Obviously lots of people have that due to poverty or other situations but still that's something that should be preventable.
kiki885@reddit
"Please don't tell me this doesn't happen in my country what are you talking about blablabla" proceeds to list every Balkan country
It doesn't happen in my country, btw. What are you talking about?
Few_Bar9654@reddit
it does, you just don't know. there's whole studies about it, statistics and all. look it up.
AnythingGoesBy2014@reddit
slovenian here. nowadays this is not the case, but my mother got nothing. she had 2 brothers, one inherited the farm with homestead, the other was gifted a piece of land to build a house on, actually her mother gifted several lots of land to her nephews. my mother got nothing. after gma passed, mother said she would like to have the vintage sewing machine. her brother who inherited everything would not give it. and my mom spent years on that farm helping for free and caring for her parents.
Mamlazic@reddit
That no longer the case but it made a lot of sense once. When woman gets married she moves to her husband's household. If it was designated heir (usually oldest son) woman would move with her new husband to family homestead.
For that same reason parents of guardians would send dowry with bride. She doesn't get inheritance, she gets some kind of value package to help them start their life. Ofcourse size if dowry depends on the wealth of family. For example my fathers family was dirt poor but had some land they worked without any automation beside one horse. So my aunt got two hams, old barrel filled with home made wine (every home in those villages made their own wine) and few agricultural tools as dowry. That was really only things they could part with without endangering their own survival.
It was essential way to keep what little land people had to draw livleyhood from together.
Nobax4@reddit
It's because we are poor. Many people don't have the money to buy a new house where they would start a family. It's still a tradition here for the women to come to the man's house and since sister wouldn't live in her house anymoe, but would move out to her husband's, it's logical for the brother to inherit the land, because he would be actually living there.
Also, what kind of brothers do people have that wouldn't let their own sister return to her home? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that my sister and I split everything evenly but even if we didn't, she would always have a place to be with me..
Nobax4@reddit
Also it makes it easier. So if brother and sister have a house 50/50 and each of them has 2 children and they decide to split their parts evenly for their kids, each kid would have then 1/4 of the house, then 1/8, 1/16, 1/32... It would became a mess
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
Mate you aren't inheriting some €400 million estate, and worried that the generational wealth. It mostly be some village land, with a modest house if you are lucky.
The next generations are supposed to create their own wealth
Nobax4@reddit
Drop the ball. Don't act like average person in our region can afford to buy new house. Not even in the US or Canada which are the richest countries on earth can people afford to buy a new home, and you are acting like a person from Albania with salary of 600€ can and should.
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
A 20 year old can't, but at some point of their life they probably will. Are you suggesting several generations will live off that village house? That's the point you inherit whatever it is, and you build your own life & so on.
So you think people would want to go back and live in the middle of nowhere, where these properties are? At best they'll sell it and use the money for stuff they need. If you wanna fight over inheritance it better be a big one.
Nobax4@reddit
Only way how they will is if a person and their partner put one of their entire salaries for paying the debts of the new home for the next 25 years with which a majority of people wouldn't fuck with.
I'm not talking about some small house in the middle of nowhere, I'm talking about the home that they grew up in.
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
You probably grew up in a small commie appartament mate, is that where you want to live and where the next generations will too?
Nobax4@reddit
Actually I grew up in a decently large village house and of course that I don't wanna live here my entire life, but it provides a security. If I fail to make a wealth, I will always have a decent roof over my head, and my sister will have a place with her husband. Selling it will give me only 75.000€ which is not even close to enough to do anything without taking big additional loans.
Could you explain to me how do people in Albania buy houses with 600€ salaries?
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
That was my whole point of the argument. Whether 35k or 70k is almost same thing. But at least you don't get to be a dick to your relatives. Is that worth breaking up the relations with your sister?
Even with your Arabic way of inheritance, you do understand that you only inherit the property after they pass away. So your sister should live with inlaws? And like you said, what if you fail to do anything, will several of your sons share that village house then? Then several of their sons?
Nobax4@reddit
As I've said before, I'm glad that my sister and I shared everything evenly but even if we didn't she would always have a place to stay with me as it should be.
And I do understand your point of view, and I would agree with you if we were in different economic stages, but we are not. I feel like you still don't understand my point of view and you are not telling me how do Albanians afford buying a home with 600€ sallary?
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
The answer is nobody is buying a house (in the area they must live) with minimum wage in Albania or Zanzibar. Doesnt mean that village house will help in any sort. You say you won't have to pay rent, but good luck generating income from there lol. Not to mention lack of services and inconveniences.
SecretRaspberry9955@reddit
Or to sum it up : Nobody in Balkans comes from old money. The usual inheritance is either cheap farmland, an old village house or a commie block appartament. None of these is life changing money. Whether you get 1/3, 1/2, or full amount it just gives you a hand. So I find it shameful how people act in such cases. Can't imagine how Balkan relatives would fight over actual old money inheritances
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Oh come on. Sell the house, split the money.. Buy your sister out of her half....
Elyay@reddit
Welcome to the Balkans
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
...we got fun and games....
theeeeOJ@reddit
Guns* too
Puzzleheaded_Sir903@reddit
This used to be very common, but it's not anymore.
Female liberation reached the Balkans.
The last such incident in my family happened in 1970s.
My great-grandparents died and family told my grandmother she should give up apartment to her brother.
The punchline is that my grandmother had the tenant right and didn't own the apartment.
DartVejder@reddit
Pretty sure that this is just a cultural bias where parents willingly prefer to leave everything to male children and there's no legal mechanism that can disinherit a woman when that's not the case.
Sad-Notice-8563@reddit
Parents can't leave everything to one child, it's very easy for anyone to sue if parents try to disinherit them, but women are pressured or raised to "willingly" renounce their part of the inheritance.
babicko90@reddit
My grandma got fucked like this. I have not heard something like this in the modern days
Fluid_Intention_875@reddit (OP)
You wouldn't hear about something like this in the modern days if you are :
1) Younger gen Z or Alpha 2) Live in a bigger city 3) Young male 5) Dont have a sister 6) Have a sister but never witnessed the conversation between your mother and sister around this topic where girls are in many cases advised to leave property to their brothers.
Btw there are even instagram pages that deal with this topic and i saw plenty of women born between 1980-1997, that have this problem. Thanks. Yes you read it right, some of 1997 girlies are brought up this way and thats basically older gen Z.
babicko90@reddit
Milenial here. Our parents actually split 50:50 all assets to sister and myself. We are from a city. Not sure what happens in small places, or minority communities. I presume it is not nice.
As i said, my grandma got screwed like this and had nothing to her name
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
This probably was a thing in the past. It is not any longer. Very few people do wills at least in Bulgaria so any property is automa5ically split in half upon the parents' passing.
BeatnologicalMNE@reddit
It's bullshit, complete bullshit. But thanks God it is long gone in majority of non rural areas (at least).
It's 50% - 50% unless someone really deserves it more (e.g. took care of parents etc) if you ask me, and that's how it should be!
ivanivanovivanov@reddit
It's an old peasant thing. If parents treat their daughters (or younger sons) as second class children they better not expect to be treated with respect.
They do shit like that and then cry "Why is s/he not visiting? Why don't they call?"
Fluid_Intention_875@reddit (OP)
Its not an old thing unfortunately. There are 90ies babies who are brought up this way by their boomer parents
DyedEye@reddit
Laws on inheritance are always a 50-50 deal of everything between siblings. And as someone with a sister I’ve actually made a conscious decision to give her the majority of everything If she ever needs it. If she wants the house we grew up in It is hers no question asked. Do not let greed or patriarchal nonsense poison you guys.
WorldlinessRadiant77@reddit
It has never been the way here. Instead the child that took care of the parents got the inheritance or the lion’s share.
Could be the eldest son, or a daughter, or the youngest child. Call it Medieval Retirement Plan if you will.
sasha345_@reddit
My mom is born in the 50s in a Bosnian countryside, and she got some land (less than her brothers) gifted that she could keep to herself, in case anything happens with her marriage, so she is at least a little independent.. still, to this day, sons are more privileged than daughters, in terms of that they e.g. get more.. super sad, truly!
Probably it’s because the sons would keep the last name and „remain in the family“, whereas the daughters enter into „another family“, so as soon as they marry, they are someone else’s, and that someone else could then be on „your“ land. The entire dealing with women as if they are property to own makes me sick.. not sure how the practice is in northern countries where women e.g. don’t get the last names of their husbands, if it’s any different in terms of culture and how women are seen after marriages.
Ozi603@reddit
That practice, that custom is relic from times long gone. That's what it is. Outdated but sadly still exists. Don't get me in wrong way but that was logical 'back then', long ago. Only logical thing. In those completely different times. Women were married off, became part of some other family and their husbands were expected to provide for them. So everything was left to sons. Also, women had no rights back then and divorces were virtually unheard of. But that was 100 and 200 years ago...and before. It is not the same world today. And that practice should have died as humanity progressed. For the better part it did. But not everywhere. And it is not only Balkans, some other parts of the world have it much worse. It is what it is. It will die out eventually, few generations more...
Jelacicrokamadjare@reddit
Well yeah, that's because the sister moves in with her husband. If something goes to shit then I really don't know what to tell you ¯_(ツ)_/¯
HeyVeddy@reddit
I got cucked with my older brother getting stuff so I feel for the women losing her entitlements. Shitty