EU Council to discuss removal of Hungary's voting rights in the European Union on May 27
Posted by AloneCoffee4538@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 95 comments
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2025/05/27/
VintageGriffin@reddit
A quote from our favorite unbiased and impartial news source, The Kiev Independent, which of course covered this event, lays it out like it is.
No dissent or a difference of opinions are to be allowed in Europe. It needs to be a hive mind, and if the hive mind tells you that you need to give your share of the money away on demand to their chosen cause and sanction your main energy and major economic and technology partner you just have to do it.
Your national interests don't matter. They don't care what havoc it would wreck on your economy, or what kind of moral consideration their cause poses - just shut up and do what a bunch of unelected EU burocrats decided for you and don't you dare complain or they would (try to) demote you in status after trying to get you to comply by all kinds of economic and financial pressures first.
The problem with EU is that it's laws were designed by idealistic people for a better world than the one we all live in - a world where everyone's votes and opinions matter. As such they are very much an inconvenience when a minority of an alliance tries to hijack and direct the global agenda by taking the reins into their own hands - and are met with a minority opposition that blocks the motion.
FreeCapone@reddit
Supporting Ukraine is the national interest of all Eastern European countries, it is in the national interest of Hungary as well, even if the government is acting against the interest of the country
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Nah going to war with Russia really isn't in the national interest of any European countries.
Zamaiel@reddit
Thats.... kind of the point.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
How so?
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
If Russia loses in Ukraine, it's less likely to attack other countries
deadliestrecluse@reddit
But they're not losing in Ukraine? All analysis I've read is saying that Ukraine is in a really bad place and even with continued arms and military aid from the west probably can't win. If NATO aren't going to get involved beyond providing arms Ukraine can't really win so seems to me were just purposefully dragging out the conflict to damage Russia and sacrificing Ukraine in the process
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
They're not winning either.
Probably isn't certainty, and E. European countries definitely don't want to make it a certainty. So they still have an interest in supplying Ukraine.
Not to mention, the outcome of this war isn't binary. Ukraine losing completely means the whole country becoming part of Russia. Russia losing completely means Putin being overthrown. Neither is realistic.
Even if we put this conflict in these very cynical (and pro-Russia) terms, where the only reason to support Ukraine is to damage Russia, countries in E. Europe still have an interest in Russia losing as many men and as much materiel in Ukraine as possible.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
I resent being accused of being Pro-Russia for saying that Ukrainians shouldn't be fed to the wolves for other countries political interests tbh your argument that it's in European countries interest to prop up Ukraine as a sacrificial punching bag for Russia to use resources on obliterating is so much more cynical than anything I said.
Ukraine losing completely doesn't mean all of Ukraine becomes part of Russia? What is that based on? Currently Ukraine is being sent to the stone age and will probably never be a functioning country again, what the fuck are you even talking about?
AboveBoard@reddit
Pesky Ukrainians always foiling Putin's genius ideas! A crafty bunch who seemingly do not want to surrender, much to the consternation of opponents.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
I have no idea what this is supposed to be in response to of what I said tbh
AboveBoard@reddit
Don't let that stop you from throwing some propaganda at us.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
What propaganda did I throw at you? Why don't you actually like an adult and make an actual argument and not a child hiding behind sarcasm
loggy_sci@reddit
The idea that the only reason Ukraine is fighting is because the EU or US wants them to is Russian propaganda because it removes agency from Ukraine, which absolutely wants to fight Russia and protect their sovereignty. You may resent being accused of being pro-Russian but you are repeating their talking points
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Well I didn't say that was the only reason they were fighting at any point so maybe actually take the time to read properly before throwing out accusations? Its genuinely insane how we still can't talk about this conflict like adults without people screaming insane accusations at the slightest whiff of different opinions.
Zamaiel@reddit
Supporting Ukraine weakens Russia. leaving them less resources for their next invasion.
There is also the matter of fighting the enemy on another nations territory, before he gets to yours.
Finally, a show of force and solidarity will discourage Russia from trying its 18th century foreign policy in Europe.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
I dunno why you downvoted me for asking what you meant? Ukraine seems to be on its last legs and throwing more and more arms at them isn't making any real difference, they can't win against Russia without direct involvement from NATO and NATO are never going to do that. This idea of bleeding Russia (while using Ukraine as a sacrificial lamb) hasnt really achieved much good for anyone
Zamaiel@reddit
I did not downvote you.
It does seem to have weakened Russia significantly, and what is more, given them a reality check on just how they rank militarily. That might keep them from starting something they can't handle because they think they are still a great power.
In any case, the fact that Russia can't eject Ukraine from its own territories, nor advance in Ukraine at a pace that is meaningful does not indicate that Ukraine is on its last legs. They seem to have more reserves than Russia and the main limiters on them seem to be basic equipment, as well as advanced weapons.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Nah the main limiters are man power, the front lines are a death zone and they are running out of men
Zamaiel@reddit
Ukraine and Russia have very different attitudes to casualties. This translates into highly lopsided attrition rates. While neither is strong, exactly who has the weakest manpower situation is shown quite clearly by whom had to go begging to North Korea.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Nah thats not a real argument at all, Ukraine clearly does have a man power issue. They've run out of men to draft. This has been heavily reported on man. The fact that Russia have been able to get more men from North Korea while Ukraines allies absolutely refuse to support them directly says something a lot different to me than you lol
Zamaiel@reddit
That does not seem mathematically supported. Ukraine has had a draft since before the war, and over the last 11 years have rotated the troops into the front so they are blooded. They seem to have a reserve of millions. The ceiling of a people fighting not to get Bucha'ed is much higher as a fraction of total population than a nation fighting for an autocrat.
What has been reported is that Ukraine has deliberately set the draft age very high and is short of basic equipment.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
They've deliberately set the draft age very high because they're running out of men. The defection rate is massive and being sent to the the front lines is seen as a death sentence. It's been absolutely catastrophic for Ukrainians.
there_is_no_spoon1@reddit
Hungary isn't just actin against the interests of their own country, though, they are acting against the interests of Europe as a whole. They need to be chucked from the union by any means necessary.
IKomradeI@reddit
Cheap energy and resources are certainly in their interest. On top of that Ukraine has been treating the hungarian minorities like 2nd class citizens. They dont owe anything to ukraine.
LeveCadeirada@reddit
Article 7 requires all the other members to unanimously vote for the suspension of Hungary. Is it not a flawed rule when all it takes to undermine the values of EU is two countries showing solidarity for each other?
Cinnabar_Cinnamon@reddit
The goal of the Union was to have unanimous consensus for the biggest measures, assuming a common democratic culture, European heritage and shared market prosperity would foster common interests.
Apparently they didn't account for traitors and self serving autocrats and Russian (or whatever other outside power) liaisons acting the fifth column.
aasfourasfar@reddit
The goal of the Union was to open markets and make cheap labor available for industrial with minimal effect
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
Yeah in the 60s maybe. It changed, a lot. Euro introduction this and that. Looks like EU gets more and more integrated after each crisis. And the veto is a big obstacle. Rven more so when the veto id abused by supporters of a hostile nation.
aasfourasfar@reddit
What the minimum wage in Romania? How about Sweden?
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Sweden doesn't have a minimum wage...
aasfourasfar@reddit
Is there any Swede or any on a Romanian salary in Sweden?
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Nobody can know.
For a start, figuring out who out of the 10 million+ people in Sweden has the lowest wage isn't possible.
Then there's that Romanian wages are constantly moving and rising, whether you're looking at minimum or average. Romania today is very different to Romania 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.
And there's the fact that the whole thing isn't important. You can't really say anything about the average from 1 data point (which is what you're asking about).
aasfourasfar@reddit
What is the median wage in Sweden and Romania?
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Rising in both. Why?
aasfourasfar@reddit
Did I ask about dynamics?
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
You can look up the median wages yourself, the dynamics is what's relevant here.
aasfourasfar@reddit
How long will it take? When will Romania have the same quality of life as Sweden then? Or will it Sweden that will go down to Romania's level? How to ensure we don't add further middle income countries.. they're talking about Macedonia now, Serbia, Albania, who's next ?
I really don't see how you can put countries so different in the same economic space with no tariffs and noway of really harmonizing social norms
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Likely decades. When will Mississippi become as wealthy as California?
Assuming no major disasters, this won't happen. Trading with a poor place doesn't create poverty. Otherwise, again, California would be on its way to becoming like Mississippi.
For a start, Macedonia isn't a country.
And then, ensure what? Why shouldn't Serbia or Albania join if they fulfill the Copenhagen Criteria?
Russia, China and the US (or any other big countries) seem to be very much doing fine, despite putting very different economies into the same economic area with no tariffs. As is the EU, honestly. It's not like there aren't substantial differences in income sub-nationally.
Tariffs being removed can be a danger at first, due to local uncompetitive industries, but the EU has measures in place to alleviate these issues, most of the time. But Romania joined 17 years ago. Whatever damage might have happened, is long gone.
As for social norms: The ones that are common or close to it already, are harmonised. The rest, don't need to be. I don't know from where you are, but believe me, this hasn't been a problem in the EU.
And if some country doesn't want to join for some stupid reason, they are free to do so (or even leave, as the UK has aptly demonstrated in its self-harming actions).
aasfourasfar@reddit
Mississippi and Missouri vote for one single president that decides federal law common to both. Not saying that's a great model, ideally we have no nation states this big.
Pretty sure France is poorer off with it's heavy industry outside
Macedonia is "North Macedonia", a republic and an indépendant country. Seeing as you're so full of bad faith, ciao
Andrei144@reddit
Bruh Romania has benefitted massively from being in the EU
aasfourasfar@reddit
This was not my question?
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
? I mean. The sucess of the EU can be looked at in very simple statistics. Look at those post soviet countries outside and inside the EU.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
You understand that is fully intentional, right? The EU is an alliance of nations working willingly together. It isn’t an empire with supreme authority over the member states. And it’s not an analogue to the US.
But there are definitely weaknesses to that approach. In fact the US itself started out as basically the same kind of thing up until that more or less collapsed due to a lack of federal authority and we got the current system instead.
lolacalamidad@reddit
Sure, but the US is a different story. It's a young nation with one language, more or less same culture, one identity, far away from potential enemies and conflicts...
LeveCadeirada@reddit
I don't see how the US is at all relevant to this topic
MikeyTheShavenApe@reddit
I think they're referring to the Articles of Confederation, which the baby US existed under for a hot minute before the US Constitution was written and ratified. The Articles treated the states more like individual nations, with more power reserved for themselves, and a weak federal government that didn't have much for teeth. Long story short, that system didn't really work for them, and the US moved to constitutional federalism as a result.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I mean, it was just an example. In very early American history, the states were organized even more loosely than the member nations of the EU are today. Look into the Articles of Confederation.
But after a few years that was transformed into a system with a much more powerful central government and much less state independence, for a lot of reasons, under our modern Constitution.
I’m not even actually claiming this is good or bad. There are positives and negatives to a system more like the EU. I doubt most Europeans want their nation to become just one part of a United States of Europe. But it’s not really my place to say. There’s also no reason it has to be one or the other extreme, obviously.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
It's helpful to compare similar political structures when analyzing politics? People are incredibly rude in this sub I can't get over the smugness lol why even bother replying?
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
I do. The US really federalized because external pressure. https://www.acton.org/religion-liberty/volume-33-number-2/america-debt-short-history and some see common debt as a hallmark of federalization. US did that in the 1780s.
The EU is basically going the same way. Yes, we may break apart. But theres a precedent - India.
LeveCadeirada@reddit
Then you can have a nice chat with the person above me because I'm still not interested
there_is_no_spoon1@reddit
yeah they missed the mark on that by a mile
fartingbeagle@reddit
That's why there was no action taken before. Poland under PIS, always had Hungary's back.
shieeet@reddit
So relatively soon after the Brexit debacle, and with all the EU countries internal politics generally being on shaky ground, I didn’t expect the European Union to be doing their darndest to ensure a swifter dissolution of itself so quickly.
Oh well, great news if you hate the EU i guess?
dannown@reddit
Hungary's voting rights are, at best, counter to the values of the EU, and at worst an existential threat to the EU.
Do you think this will lead to further Euroscepticism?
shieeet@reddit
I think regardless of Hungary’s position towards the EU, this kind of move looks weak as hell and will likely destabilize EU jurisdiction and influence even further. A soft power approach (basically bribing Hungary into subservience or whatever) would probably be healthier for the EU in the long run here, but that would also require more political savviness than the EU possesses right now.
Chroma_primus@reddit
You do realise that the bribing you suggest is already the current relationship. Everybody is fed up with orbans corruption and him delaying aid, sanctions and in generell his hindering in the EU
imunfair@reddit
He saved the EU's ass by preventing them from sanctioning themselves into oblivion at the behest of Biden, you guys should be thanking him, the pipelines he kept open saved you guys from a lot more pain for no reason.
You already lost a ton of businesses due to shafting your own energy prices and took on a ton of debt to subsidize the lower and middle classes so they could bear the pain of a burden that wasn't theirs. Without Hungary that would have been twice as devastating. It's silly that the other leaders are mad at him.
shieeet@reddit
Possible, but with EU scepticism already at an all-time high practically in every European country, this kind of move will very likely just add fuel to the fire and do the opposite of the intended effect.
Although, I suppose it is possible to argue that having more countries jump off the EU Brexit-style might cull anti-EU voices and strengthen the coherence of the countries that decide to stay in the union, but I have very serious doubts about that.
Chroma_primus@reddit
I think a lot of people are feed up with orban and will see this as a strenghtening of internal EU politics. None of the sceptic Partien i know of want to League the EU. I wish orban would just leav the EU and de whatever He wants eithout us and be happy.
shieeet@reddit
I mean, big parties with Brexit-style sentiments are rampant across the EU.
Germany’s AfD, now sadly one of the biggest parties in Germany, is constantly threatening to push for a Dexit. Same with France’s Front National, and same with Sweden’s Sweden Democrats. These are only three examples, but it's basically the same in every EU country right now. Again, I’m not arguing that this is good, I’m just saying that this is real, and I think ousting Hungary in this case will likely strengthen all these movements immensely.
JAMisskeptical@reddit
You’re literally making shit up, people like you have been repeating this bullshit forever and it’s not true.
Chroma_primus@reddit
Yeah gearmanys fire wall will hopefully prevent Afd and you are right about france and sweden, but i still think this will strengthen trust in the EU to punish misseads
Tom-Rath@reddit
Except it's not. Anyone with a brain would infer that perceptions of the EU would likely improve in view of the
If you took the time to look at the latest available Eurobarometer data, you would see that the EU is viewed more positively than the national governments of respondents in almost every single Member State. The 2023 data shows that respondents in EVERY SINGLE EU COUNTRY agree that being a Member has, on balance, benefitted their country.
But unfortunately, we have people like you arrogantly speaking on behalf of everyone, without taking two seconds to consult the actual figures.
I don't understand why people like you post lies when they are easily verifiable. Are you simply uninvested in the veracity of your claims? You do realize we also have Internet connections and can look these things up, right? Or do you just not care that you're writing bullshit.
usesidedoor@reddit
Orban cannot hold us hostage indefinitely. At the end of the day, Hungary is a small, landlocked country, surrounded by the EU or EU-friendly states, with an economy that has its limitations. It's definitely not the UK.
If the Hungarian government thinks that they can do better on their own because adhering to the basic rules of the EU is such a big ask, then they are free to do their own thing. No hard feelings whatsover.
HerMajestyTheQueef1@reddit
No, allowing a country to support a war of aggression and conquest in Europe is destabilising to the European Union.
shieeet@reddit
That’s another issue, bordering on a non sequitur, but okay. But are you in that case, arguing that the EU would be stronger if they kicked out Hungary or what?
HerMajestyTheQueef1@reddit
It would certainly be stronger without putin sycophant orban's blackmail slowing the entire union to a halt all of the time.
Not only that, they are a net negative economically, absorbing over €6billion each year and only returning €2billion.
So when they leach out of the system and then also block every attempt to rid Europe of a malicious and brutal invader, yes, EU will be stronger without the traitor orban regime.
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
Basically we tried bribing Orban the last 10 years. First thr carrot. Then the stick. Given NOTHING worked, are we stupid to let this continue?
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Just depends what we want the EU to actually be, removing the voting rights of particular countries as punishment for particular policy platforms is definitely a dangerous precedent
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
Not removing it may be more dangerous.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
I dunno if I agree, the EU only works because the smaller countries don't feel like they're fully being dominated by the bigger ones. Removing the veto based on political platforms could be exactly the thing that provokes even more euroscepticism. The EU is supposed to draw countries in Europe together and find some form of consensus
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
Im from one of the very small countries, Luxembourg. We dont care. Oc we bitched a bit when everyone demanded we get our tax laws in order.
Yes. And 450 million people being held hostage by 10 million (not even that, lets say 5) is not what i understand as "consensus".
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Luxembourg is one of the wealthiest countries in Europe not exactly what I was talking about lol theres already a lot of resentment in poorer European countries towards the EU and a worry that the wealthy countries ride roughshod over the poorer ones. (I'm not saying I agree with that before anyone jumps down my throat and starts calling me a Putin lover). Getting rid of the veto because a small poor country doesn't have the same foreign policy as the rich western European countries absolutely sets a bad precedent whether you agree with this particular stance or not.
dannown@reddit
To me this looks like a healthy political body making difficult adjustments to allow it to continue to function.
I'm not sure what about it seems weak.
shieeet@reddit
Hypothetical counterfactual argument here: let’s say in the U.S. that Arizona or Wyoming or whatever was too detrimental to the federal system and got booted out of congress and the senate somehow. Would the 49 states left and the U.S. at large be stronger or weaker after such a move?
I'd argue it would look weak as hell.
dannown@reddit
And if my grandma had wheels she would have been a bike.
By which I mean this "argument" has no relation to what's going on.
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
I mean, a single state can't block any decision for the federal government. If it was true, I'm sure Trump would just send the army because that's literally what he threatened to do to governors.
shieeet@reddit
Correct, hence the disclaimer declaring it a hypothetical counterfactual argument.
Oh c'mon now, you don't think this would raise a stink with Orban and his ilk? I'm sure what you're saying is the intention of the EU, but what I'm arguing is that such a move will very likely backfire, strengthening all the anti-EU forces around Europe and doing more damage than an obtuse Hungary.
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
Plus, maybe it won't even happen this way, Orban may just loose to Magyar Péter and flee with his tail down, Robert Fico might lose a surprise non-confidence vote and the end of Unanimity will be voted by everyone.
shieeet@reddit
Oh, you don't need to convince me Orban is a crook,he is. And like you say, they're mostly just annoying reactionaries who whine, sabotage, and repeat. But again, their impact shouldn't be underestimated, especially when they've got a new persecution complex to point at, and i think this kind of vote will do just that.
Then again, like you say, maybe it won't even happen this way regardless.
shieeet@reddit
Correct, hence the disclaimer declaring it a hypothetical counterfactual argument.
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
Yep. But it's to underline how it's not a sign of weaknes, but rather of a slightly broken system trying to repair and better itself.
Imprisonment of dissident and martial law would be a sign of weaknes, despite being a strongman action
CorvidCorbeau@reddit
I'm not so sure it would work, but I think it's better than revoking voting rights completely. I am Hungarian, and while one of the biggest talking points here is that the EU is holding back the money, I don't think releasing funds would change much.
Basically, paying us won't shift politics. But removing voting rights over an unfavorable national government that keeps veto ing stuff sets a bad precedent. I definitely think it will lead to a bit of Euroskepticism in less influential countries.
PIuto@reddit
Hungarians aren’t actually eurosceptic though, not even a little bit.
deadliestrecluse@reddit
Yeah, euro sceptics already see the EU as aggressively lopsided towards the interests of the richest countries. The idea of bullying other countries for having different foreign policy to the rest of Europe is red meat for them.
Sircamembert@reddit
Sure, they can talk about it. But as long as a pro-Russia leader holds in Slovakia, or any other country at any given time, it's not going to fly. That's the problem with a unanimity system. Maybe go with a 80-90% majority rule next time?
imunfair@reddit
It's not really a problem, it's the purpose of the union. They aren't a central government like the US union, they're a coalition of countries and they only pass whatever legislation is positive for all members. If the other states want a country to do something against its own interests they have to offer something in return, whether it's a moral plea or a monetary reward in return for doing something the rest of the union wants done.
there_is_no_spoon1@reddit
Does the EU have a Constitution? A legally binding document that sets the framework for all the citizens under its purview regarding their rights and responsibilities?
I'm asking SERIOUSLY 'cuz I don't know and in order to respond intelligently to your post I'd have to know that much. Because a Constitution could be amended, being one of the hallmarks of said document.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
A bunch of treaties, that act as a constitution. But they need unanimous support to be amended
LeveCadeirada@reddit
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:2bf140bf-a3f8-4ab2-b506-fd71826e6da6.0023.02/DOC_1&format=PDF
there_is_no_spoon1@reddit
Thanx
imunfair@reddit
Man for a place that thinks of itself as the bastion of freedom and democracy the EU has been making an awful lot of tyrannical moves in the past couple years whenever an election doesn't go their way or a state exercises its rights under the union charter to block something that isn't in its best interest.
From the outside it looks an awful lot like democracy when convenient, authoritarian control when the facade of free choice fails to produce the desired result.
horiami@reddit
Bad idea, especially seeing all the people who say they can get them back if orban loses
It will just increase euroskepticism, make the pro eu side look weak, desperate and ineffective
There needs to be a whole revamp of the voting system but doing it for just Hungary is a bad idea(and most likely won't pass anyway)
Reasonable-Ad4770@reddit
It is. It also sends all the wrong signals. What will happen if more members states elect pro Russian government? Will they remove their voices too? It looks like twisting hands of nation governments to fall in line or else
If veto right is an obstacle in EU democratic processes, then they should be reformed.