CESSNA 550 Citation May Have Hit the Wires in San Diego

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ACapra@reddit

Did all my training at KMYF. If they clipped those lines then they were WAY below the glideslope. Those things are almost two miles from the threshold.

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Acrobatic-Act9497@reddit

If you had the wrong altimeter setting, you would still be on GS and LOC

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viccityguy2k@reddit

Was on the altitude numbers earlier in the approach

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mrhappysuncle@reddit

https://youtu.be/LhKoCxxajfk?si=aw8t-VlN0KMc_C3Q

NSFW

Lots of evidence in this video, including a pretty sizable light pole that has been bent and knocked down.

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MikeWillis09@reddit

I used to live in that area. The looks of that pole are not on the street that the plane landed.

I know people on the sub speculated it possibly hitting lines. This makes sense as that does appear to be the main road east of the crash where there are power lines

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ThePenIslands@reddit

Wow, that video is gonna get taken down at some point. Uncensored bodies out in the open after the 9-minute mark.

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Global-Barber621@reddit

666DS. Who picked that tail number???

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The pilot is a friend of mine, he is a booking agent of heavy metal, hardcore and rock music bands. One of the passengers was the former drummer of the band “the devil wears prada”. It would have been tongue in cheek. They are all very nice guys and Dave, the pilot and booking agent, is by far one of the most nicest guys in the industry and is the first comment people always make about him. Which is rare in music world.

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Global-Barber621@reddit

Sorry for your loss

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cantgrowneckbeardAMA@reddit

I'm a fan of several of the bands he represented and worked with over the years and know of his legendary hospitality. I am so sorry for your loss.

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FixergirlAK@reddit

TIL that vanity N-numbers are a thing.

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hawaiian717@reddit

Nike, the shoe company, owns N1KE.

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FixergirlAK@reddit

Oh cool. I will always be 58 Romeo even though my dad sold that plane long ago.

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ryevermouthbitters@reddit

The owner appears to have been a musical agent/musician whose initials were DS.

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MichiganRedWing@reddit

The initials are not the odd part.

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cheezboyadvance@reddit

He's a metal musician. It's a thing.

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MichiganRedWing@reddit

was*

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ryevermouthbitters@reddit

A rock n roll guy cheekily choosing 666 is odd?

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cheezboyadvance@reddit

Odd if you're not into heavy music I guess.

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Accidentallygolden@reddit

Glidepath to the ground... Wrong qnh?

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sd_software_dude@reddit

They were trying to land at runway 28R which supports ILS CAT 1. The decision height for that runway is 250 feet. Those power lines are well below that height.

The pilot should have executed a missed approach.

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Disastrous_Drop_4537@reddit

Citation II has a chapter 2 limitation, no vertical guidance below 500 feet, page 2-11.

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Accidentallygolden@reddit

I have heard it was RNAV...

A wrong altimeter setting can be dramatic in Rnav

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Navydevildoc@reddit

If they did, they were significantly off glideslope. I can't imagine a Citation doesn't have a coupled autopilot.

In addition, SDGE hasn't said anything, and that's a major transmission line corridor.

Let's wait and see what the facts say.

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Inside-Finish-2128@reddit

Not necessarily. While wires don’t grow and trees do, it’s not a perfect guarantee that the glideslope is 100% clear: fly the plate…

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w1sconsinjohn@reddit

Low time IR guy here so take that with a grain of corn, but what’s the Vref for this plane? I was just looking at the plates. Or does that not matter for this type?

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MidnightSurveillance@reddit

Yeah, would have had news of an outage by now if that were the case. SAN would have been a much better option this morning than MYF.

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OneRingOfBenzene@reddit

Power guy here- that's a transmission line which is always operated with N-1 redundancy. In normal circumstances, if that line was downed there would be no power outage. I imagine SDG&E will wait until facts can be confirmed before issuing any statements.

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blissfully_happy@reddit

I’m a high school math teacher and a student came to me recently for help on amps/voltage formulas. I couldn’t remember it from ages ago so I had to look it up.

I just need you to know: you guys are absolutely, mindblowingly smart af. I was so confused, I have absolutely no idea how you keep all that shit straight and how you calculate everything without, ya know, like… dying. Holy fuck, I wanted to tear my hair out! Thanks for what you do. Shit’s tough af.

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cruiserman_80@reddit

Amps / voltage are the easy ones. It's AC theory that leaked out of my apprentice brain faster than I could get it in.

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blissfully_happy@reddit

I couldn’t remember everything I was helping this kid with, but it was a formula for current vs power vs time? Something like, “this appliance used this much power while active, how much energy is it using in a day just plugged in,” or something like that. I was having such a hard time keeping the definitions straight.

Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, the general population has no idea how smart you folks are.

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Strict_Lettuce3233@reddit

Outage in Mexico

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AmazingProfession900@reddit

I wish I had a lot more N1 redundancy in my life.

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LurkerWithAnAccount@reddit

Best I can do is a pair of kidneys and lungs. -Intelligent Designer

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jtbis@reddit

They’re only CAT I capable at best

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njsullyalex@reddit

Even then that means it should be able to follow a glideslope, right?

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jtbis@reddit

Only down to 500ft

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Imaginary-Spray3711@reddit

Um, no. Down to 200’.

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Disastrous_Drop_4537@reddit

Nope, its a 1985 citation II, chapter 2 limitation is no vertical nav below 500 feet, page 2-11.

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Unlucky_Geologist@reddit

200 feet is a sop limitation. Most cat 1 planes will fly it to 50-100 feet before auto-executing the missed.

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Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit

Um no, all the way down.

Kind of like RAIM.. CAT II and III doesn’t make it more accurate, it makes it more redundant and available. It’s still using the same hardware on the ground and in the airplane.

Yeah you can’t proceed below 200 AGL or whatever minimums are when IMC, but autopilot limitations are generally well below that. The King Air for example is 79’.

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njsullyalex@reddit

I guess they would be past, but also, wouldn’t they have GPWS?

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Disastrous_Drop_4537@reddit

Look up the tail number, its SN is 550-0056, a citation II, made in 1985. Chapter 2 has a 500 foot vertical nav limitation on page 2-11.

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Warcraft_Fan@reddit

Fog were reported, chances are the pilot was flying blind and didn't realize he was low enough to clip invisible power line.

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pvtpile02@reddit

It's a 0.5% glide path.

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Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit

False slope, perhaps?

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theblueberryspirit@reddit

They did confirm on the SDFD briefing this morning that one of the power lines has been downed, but wouldn't speculate further. They said SDG&E had been working closely with them but there's no outage risk at the moment (that was 7 am or so) but that as usage goes up there may be outages.

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gallo_viejo@reddit

Lots of holes in the Swiss cheese lining up. Very unfortunate.

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InHinkieITrust@reddit

D s q

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Street-Outside6528@reddit

Fatigue is real

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Common-Window-2613@reddit

Yea. 0347 does not seem like a good time to be concluding a cross country flight.

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kvark27@reddit

Try doing an Atlantic crossing lol it’s brutal on the body.

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FootPlastic8861@reddit

I'm not a flyer but had two years on a Navy carrier (Oriskany). Every month, the aviation safety magazine, "Approach," would discuss one or more accident reports. (Not all involved crashes.)

"Get-home-itis" is a peculiar malady that affects flyers. They go to extremes to avoid unnecessary stops or delays. 0347 is just another four digits to someone who has get-home-itis.

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Thequiet01@reddit

Not just pilots. Motorists and sailors too. Anything really where you’re trying to go from Point A to point B and might be tempted to keep going even when you can safely stop. So hikers and cyclists as well in some circumstances.

We do a lot of road trips in our RV and we intentionally identify places to stop along our route and as we’re approaching each we assess how everyone is doing, how the weather is, etc. because it’s better to stop than to get into an accident because of bad conditions or fatigue.

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slut_bunny69@reddit

Get-home-itis probably affects a lot of motorists too. I feel myself wanting to get home now after a long trip, but I have to remind myself that rushing or driving in bad weather or while too tired just isn't worth it.

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Zchwns@reddit

I remember hearing years ago that a large number of accidents involving vehicles happen within a mile of the drivers house. I’d say that sounds like get-home-itis

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CharlesGarfield@reddit

That’s also due to the vast majority of trips you take starting or ending at your house.

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curiousengineer601@reddit

There is a YouTube channel called “Pilot Debrief” ran by a former navy pilot ( later safety officer) named Hoover. He goes into great detail about (mostly smaller) aircraft crashes.

Excellent channel by a guy that really knows his stuff.

Link here link

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MildTile@reddit

This. Unfortunately. They were in Daytona for a festival. Then went back to Jersey, then flew across country. Just a terrible thing.

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mikepuyallup@reddit

They started the approach knowing it's was below minimums, yes I know you can part 91 but you should if you have been flight all night.

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JijiSpitz@reddit

Not sure if they knew because ASOS was out of service at the time they began the approach. KSAN was reporting marginal but two other nearby fields were well below. Too bad they didn’t just divert to KSAN

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No_Masterpiece679@reddit

Yeah. Even Brown was a better option. 3600 ft longer runway, working asos, working papi and 25 min drive to Montgomery. Even had 100ft better ceiling for the 8L RNAV. My guess is he decoupled autopilot below 500ft since it’s an older 550 and it got away from him (he was really fast for cat B approach) or he thought the street lights were approach lights (which were also inop per notam, not to mention the 60ft mins increase for vnav).

Such a bummer.

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_cuddly_cactus_@reddit

There are no outages being reported anywhere near Murphy Canyon.

https://www.sdge.com/residential/customer-service/outage-center/outage-map

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foreverlostx3@reddit

I lost power for a split second

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llobster@reddit

FWIW I live about 2 miles as the crow flies from the crash and all my network devices were offline this morning. I checked my cameras and they went off at 3:46am when the crash was reported at 3:45. Turns out my UPS shut down and nothing was actually fried but I suspect there was a surge when it hit and it tripped.

My backyard camera that roughly points in the direction of Tierra Santa didn’t show anything though with the fog.

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ZafiroAnejo@reddit

I live about five miles from there, I had my TV and two lights on. One of my lights flickered and my internet went down.

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OneRingOfBenzene@reddit

A transmission line of that size is always operated with N-1 redundancy, and those lines being down likely wouldn't cause any power outages under normal conditions. No customers would be directly tapped off that line, and the substations it connects would always have more than one feed. So- no power outrages does not mean the line was not struck.

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IsACube@reddit

N-1 would be kind of wild lol. I think you mean N+1.

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OneRingOfBenzene@reddit

N-1 in this context means the system must remain stable and without interruption of customer power for the loss of any one element. If there are N elements, the scenario with the loss of an element would be N-1. It's the term used in power, at least.

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qalpi@reddit

They confirmed a power line was indeed clipped

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wt1j@reddit

Pilot did not have weather because ASOS was out. Also means he didn’t have local altimeter. Was flying RNAV 28R which is not authorized for category C aircraft. I question whether he would even have been able to load the approach into his avionics because the plane would know it’s not authorized. Weather at local fields was all below minimums and he was told this by approach. Given that they descended below the glide slope, wasn’t authorized for the approach and didn’t have local altimeter I question if he was even flying an advisory RNAV glideslope or was he winging it with lateral guidance and a wrongly set altimeter? Either way a risky and unauthorized approach without local weather or local altimeter. It’s worth noting that many approaches increase minimums if you don’t have the local altimeter.

Source for some of this, and the altimeter comments and comments re not being able to load the approach are my own: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0EvonKFzcA

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ApprehensiveVirus217@reddit

Citation 550 is a Cat B on straight ins.

Avionics don’t know that you’re “not authorized” for an approach. Perhaps some do, but I can load approaches all day long that I’m not authorized for.

It would depend on his avionics set up if he had an advisory glideslope or not. Impossible to tell.

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wt1j@reddit

Thanks.

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ewaters46@reddit

I‘m pretty sure a Citation II is a Cat B plane though - they are not that fast compared to other jets…

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Glad-Attempt5138@reddit

The article I read said heavy fog. I would think he would be flying IFR approach. Either pilot error or instrument error?

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No_Masterpiece679@reddit

He was shooting the RNAV approach.

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marvelous5000@reddit

Entertainment bros, and doctors should consider leaving the higher risk stuff to the pros.

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RawkitScience@reddit

The topology in this area made me assume this right away couple that with fog and coming in at 4a. Additionally the residents said they heard the engines screaming before the bang which must have been them applying power. There’s also a driving range right in the basin before the hill they were way too low for a while before they got to the power lines.

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qalpi@reddit

They just confirmed a power line was clipped

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Puzzleheaded_Nerve@reddit

Upvoting without confirmation but makes sense.

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qalpi@reddit

Here you go: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/private-planes-fatal-crash-san-diego-neighborhood-122087345

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Puzzleheaded_Nerve@reddit

Appreciate the source!

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weech@reddit

Fuck

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nl_Kapparrian@reddit

I'm sure you would hit a lot of things when you're too damn low on the approach.

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MichiganRedWing@reddit

Well, what do the wires look like currently?

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Dr_knowitall69@reddit

It's May, those wires won't emerge from the marine layer until July.

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Medical_Impress4807@reddit

Ummm snapped would be my guess

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546875674c6966650d0a@reddit

This is the missing info

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Junior-Tourist3480@reddit

Yep

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DueMud1906@reddit

which airline or charter for this airplane is ?

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roehnin@reddit

Privately owned by the pilot.

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nobodyisfreakinghome@reddit

This article claims 6 on board dead.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/murphy-canyon-plane-crash-live-updates/3831321/?amp=1

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Past_Reach_5575@reddit

Tail number 666. Damn

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Fidodo@reddit

What could have caused them to be that low?

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I_love_mom_boobs@reddit

Everyone is saying fatigue is the main culprit. They have been flying cross country

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More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit

Fatigue

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SeaworthyNavigator@reddit

Fog...

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F_lover@reddit

Possible the Altimeter setting

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DontLookUp21@reddit

Could we start a rule banning speculation?

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blackglum@reddit

I knew the pilot Dave Shapiro and one of the guys vaguely. The pilot was a booking agent for bands and an all round well known good guy. I use to work in the music industry so worked with Dave closely and had toured with the other guy also who performed.

All very sad news and was a shock to read a friend’s post about it on Facebook this morning when I woke up.

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MildTile@reddit

Dave was the man. Knew him from the CTS days. Today sucks.

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dank_failure@reddit

Wires are on a winning streak this year for some reason

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sdbirders@reddit (OP)

I was just watching Juan Browne's vid on wire strikes a couple of days ago. https://youtu.be/jjV_k4-DstQ?si=bOPGoU-4MnY04JvA

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Wrong_Swordfish@reddit

He's got an update for this incident. Very insightful. https://youtu.be/m0EvonKFzcA?si=a4EO7s9ZbRcRutvf

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purepwnage85@reddit

Fly by wire owning the librul Europeans again

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ShadoeRantinkon@reddit

Nonono, not fly BY wire, fly into wire my friend

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Ggeng@reddit

You fly by wire

I fly into wire

We are not the same

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SpitefulSeagull@reddit

The wires will catch you and slow you down before landing. Makes perfect sense

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Medical_Impress4807@reddit

On an aircraft carrier 🤭

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FixergirlAK@reddit

And people come to Alaska and wonder why we have colored balls strung all over the place.

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Medical_Impress4807@reddit

There are colored balls on those wires where it crashed. Apparently heavy fog.

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s0ul_invictus@reddit

See, I understand "national security" and all, but goddamnit, put a fucking medium IR coupled with SAR on everything commercial and make it available to everyone else. You should not know that you're clearing obstructions based on your altitude/flightpath. You should know because your fog-penetrating medium wave FLIR and Synthetic Aperture Radar are giving you eyes on said obstructions and you can VISUALLY confirm that you will clear. Its 2025. Fuck this dumb shit.

RIP and condolences.

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1320Fastback@reddit

It was foggy here last night in San Diego for sure. There was a plane a few years ago I believe at the same airport that clipped the wires but landed.

RIP brothers.

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Buzzthespaceranger@reddit

I wonder who the piolet was? I heard Dave Shapiro or whatever, was a "Daredevil."

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Pro-editor-1105@reddit

Change the flair to analysis rather than news.

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BurtHurtmanHurtz@reddit

It’s news now though since it was confirmed

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Pro-editor-1105@reddit

But news has to be an oofficial article. This is analysis as they are using this map to show what happened. Although it is a VERY GOOD analysis.

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sdbirders@reddit (OP)

Done 👍

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Pro-editor-1105@reddit

thanks

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AmazingProfession900@reddit

Causation or correlation?

Are we assuming the clipped lines were the cause? Or were they clipped on the way down.

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bowleshiste@reddit

Not likely. No power outages or anything reported about line damage. The lines are also more in the center of the canyon at that point, not on the west side. If they hit anything it was the ridge on the west side.

More likely though is that they just realized they were super low at that point, pulled up abruptly and possibly stalled

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GaiusFrakknBaltar@reddit

There's always the possibility of a mechanical failure, but if that ends up getting ruled out, it's probably due to task saturation and the pilots falling behind the airplane. If there are issues setting up for an approach in low visibility, it can distract the pilots quite a bit.

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bowleshiste@reddit

Most definitely. I pointed out in my thread on r/flying that the ASOS and approach lights were also down and Cat C and D aircraft are prohibited on all approaches for that field. The Cat point might not matter though. There's conflicting information about whether or not the C550 is a Cat B or C aircraft and I haven't had any responses from any actual C550 pilots

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GaiusFrakknBaltar@reddit

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted lol. Reddit is fickle. Your info about no reported outages is useful!

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Fidodo@reddit

There were no outages, but clipped power lines were reported on BBC's live coverage page. It could have just clipped one line and not done enough damage to take out power. The power lines in the neighborhood are all under-grounded so the only power lines in that area that could have been hit are those ones. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cj42ew5zy7et?post=asset%3A53737d5c-0109-44d1-b863-1a58af3dd06c#post

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bowleshiste@reddit

Weird. This is the only source I've seen say anything about power lines. None of the local news are reporting that

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callitanight79@reddit

There’s a charted obstacle at 554’ on the approach plates right around where they went down.

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doorbell2021@reddit

Whether it was the wires or something else, there really isn't much margin of error on an instrument approach when there is rising terrain under the glideslope. Flightaware records show this plane has been into MYF a few times recently, so assuming the same pilot, they should have been well aware of the rising terrain to the east.

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sdbirders@reddit (OP)

I checked the spot elevation of the ball field, which is 410.72 feet AMSL according to the USGS National Map Viewer. The aircraft was at 500 feet prior to the anomaly. These 230/500kV power lines can reach heights between 140 and 180 feet.

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Gilmere@reddit

At 3:45am and foggy, I guess seeing the wires (or any high viz add-on like those red balls) would have been out of the question. This is tragic. The first picture depicts the vertical (and horizontal) path of the aircraft I assume. If so, there was a very interesting low altitude (AGL) right over that hill then an abrupt climb. It was a smooth decent all the way down suggesting to me automated control. That Citation would likely have had coupled approach capability. Maybe the strike was there and the pilot(s) tried to get back up to altitude but didn't make it. Tragic...

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BugFixBingo@reddit

Or they thought they were about to

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OrionAD8@reddit

They clearly didn't since there's no reports of power outages