South African President Cyril Ramaphosa confronted with false claims of white genocide
Posted by ObjectiveObserver420@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 186 comments
ReallyTeddyRoosevelt@reddit
The leader of the EFF saying "death to white farmers" right after Trump shows videos of white farmers being slaughtered was certainly a choice. Trump baited you guys (South Africans) into claiming killing white people isn't a big deal. That has never worked.
CRoss1999@reddit
Trump didn’t show videos of white farmers being killed, the video wasn’t even from South Africa
ReallyTeddyRoosevelt@reddit
Was the leader off the EFF party (roughly 10% of the vote) saying "kill the white farmer" for funsies?
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
Who cares. They're a fringe opposition group, not the government.
ReallyTeddyRoosevelt@reddit
So if the KKK was 10% of the USA you would just tell Black guys to chill out?
LoudTomatoes@reddit
If black people historically held all the instutional power, oppressed white people, forced white people into ghettos and poverty, stripped them of their land and rights and only stopped 30 years ago while still having a massively disproportionate amount of wealth and land compared to the much poorer white population, I'd probably believe that the KKK's aminosity towards black people was understandable.
White South Africans and black Americans are just not a good comparison
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Im confused at what this is implying? You think it's ok for them to celebrate killing white people because they were historically discriminated against? Because that would be disgusting.
envysn@reddit
Do you genuinely not understand the point or are you just being facetious?
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Do you understand? How else am I supposed to an interpret such an asinine world view. When is it "understandable" to want to kill people because of what skin color they have?
Jahobes@reddit
Being a radical racist because your fore fathers lost the right to enslave people but you will have institutional power... is not the same thing as being a radical racist because your former enslavers have all their previous power and wealth even though apartheid is supposedly over while you lack any institutional power.
Cecayotl@reddit
No I also interpreted what you said this way.
DankMastaDurbin@reddit
It's a crime to defend yourself from colonialism? Would you say the same for north American indigenous population? Or is their oppression rational due to Eurocentric institutionalism?
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Yeah, no. Killing innocent people is wrong, If native Americans started to kill random white Americans it would also be fucked. "Defending yourself against colonialism" doesn't require you to kill/ advocate for killing large groups of people indiscriminately, that makes you an extremist murder.
Angry_Canadian88@reddit
White people living in a formerly segregated country that was colonized by white Europeans. Saying they were historically discriminated against while they control the majority of wealth and majority of land is laughable. They make up 7% of the population but control 70-80% of the wealth, use your brain just a little bit.
Exotic-Bumblebee-205@reddit
Well, there was a court case in South africa about saying kill the boars. If you want to find out why the court has allowed them, it's interesting, but yes, generally, I don't cry for systems of oppression.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Ok, as long as we're clear that you are supporting the murder of innocent people.
Exotic-Bumblebee-205@reddit
Wow... I'm just trying to give you perspective. This argument was had in court. If you want to read why they ruled in favour of free speech, you are free to.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
If you weren't being confrontation I apologize, I know what it is claimed to mean, I don't buy it.
Exotic-Bumblebee-205@reddit
Yes, I don't support genocide lol. It's just this exact debate that was had in court, and if you are interested, why did they make the ruling you can. ❤️
HomeworkOwn2146@reddit
Nah you leftist are actually unbelievable
Bong_Water_Warrior@reddit
Don't lump all leftists in with these lunatics
the_pwnererXx@reddit
An interesting way to justify murder, rape and torture
concon910@reddit
You could replace white and black with hutu and tutsi and still have this statement be mostly true of the lead up to the Rwandan genocide.
Danielc7916@reddit
Out here in rural indiana, i wouldn’t be surprised. That would only be like 1/4th of maga, i’d say your close to 10% who feel that way at least
FederalSandwich1854@reddit
Arent you pro israel lmao
Have you read some of the stuff written by Israeli GOVERNMENT officials and the prime minister?
SeaBet5180@reddit
You guys did, yeah. The AFD only just got deemed a threat
Ochemata@reddit
Where does anything say the EFF is 10% of South Africa?
No_Journalist3811@reddit
They have a big following, supporters and not the only people that have that mindset......
kero12547@reddit
So were the nazis at first
Acrobatic-Error4160@reddit
So is the kkk
blackweebow@reddit
That should be the reddest of flags, but I don't think conservatives care about facts anymore.... I'd love to be proven wrong tho.
BendicantMias@reddit
This is just an excuse used often to dismiss people you don't like. Everyone cares about facts. Everyone. They just choose to focus on different ones. Again, everyone does that. On every topic.
blackweebow@reddit
What is?
BendicantMias@reddit
That's awfully tribal mindset. Very angels and demons. How ironic.
How we got here - tribalism IS how we got here. Your tribalism. Their tribalism. And other tribes outside of your dichotomy, not that you're able to see much outside that dichotomy yourself.
And collectively all your tribalism will doom us all - and people like you will KEEP pointing fingers at the other side all the way down.
Do you think of yourself as individual? Cos you aren't. You gave that up a long time ago.
blackweebow@reddit
....alrighty then?
Does it change that conservative ideals are essentially steeped in misinformation and misinforming their own voter base? Is anything you're saying helping to argue against what I said? Not really.
BendicantMias@reddit
Yes it does. Cos everything you said is based on a purely tribal worldview, ironically as detached from reality as you think their tribe is. Which is right to an extent - to the extent that they have their own tribalists. But in the end neither of you are capable of seeing any facts objectively, cos you're too wedded to the ideological blinkers you choose to blind yourselves with. You think your vision is clear, but really you just see only what you want to see.
blackweebow@reddit
Ok, and can you provide evidence for uour claim of my "tribalist" worldview? Or are you just taking me to whatever your church is rn?
BendicantMias@reddit
The evidence is your own words, right above. You're just too steeped in your tribal identity to recognize it for what it is. You think your mind could be changed, it can't. It's already made up. You weren't looking for someone to change your mind, you were looking for someone for you to show the error of their ways. You already know that your tribe is good, the other tribe bad. That's why I said angels and demons - you did both.
And I'm not here to preach Trumps' greatness btw, so don't even bother dragging that in. My point is far broader, as you're using him as an excuse to dismiss far more than you realize. Not just in America, but across the world. This too is due to your tribalism, and its inherent tribal superiority complex that you've bought into - a superiority that extends not just to Trump and his supporters, but to other opposing tribes both domestic and global. Every tribe, conservative as you label them, that doesn't think like yours does.
To use an old Madonna song -
You know what's really ironic? That you would likely use lines like that to criticize those you consider 'hateful' or 'phobic', never accepting that they describe your ilk just as well.
Other-Comfortable-64@reddit
Not trying to defend Trump at all .
It is a video of a radical political party gathering. It is Malema speaking at an EFF ralley. It is kinda his thing, like Trumps build the wall. Definitely South African
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pND10IAJyDM&ab_channel=TheNewsmakers
ForumFluffy@reddit
They meant the video of farmers being killed.
Other-Comfortable-64@reddit
That is also in South Africa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witkruis_Monument
Love_JWZ@reddit
They didn’t show this one, but another one next to some road. Yet still in ZA indeed.
No_Journalist3811@reddit
It 100% was from south africa. That was Julias malema singing one bullet 1 farmer....
The-Lord_ofHate@reddit
Hello. I am a white South African living in South Africa. Thank you for your concern, but we're really fine, thanks. Obviously there are problems, but nobody is picking on us poor little whites. We're still generally better off than average., scroll down a bit and you'll find a few comments of White South Africans. Stop with the virtue racist signaling
ReallyTeddyRoosevelt@reddit
Well the people that came over sure didn't agree with you. But sure, go ahead and act smug on reddit, I hope it helps you feel better.
catch22_SA@reddit
Wow those 49 reactionaries who sold out their country to propagate white nationalist narratives about an imaginary genocide, yeah those guys are trustworthy.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
I'm an Australian. I've come to know quite a number of Rhodesians and South Africans. Good people. They don't tell the same story as you.
Cheers
__El_Presidente__@reddit
Yeah good people all around...
Murkann@reddit
I’m sure some Argentinians met quite few Germans and thought they were good people.
“Rhodesian” cause is inherently racist, they were fighting for their “right” to preserve a white etno-state in middle of Africa during decolonization period.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
Otherwise known as the food basket of Africa. What's it known for know?
Murkann@reddit
If we turned Australia into a Chinese colony with sole purpose of creating shit for CCP i’m sure in a way it would be more efficient.
inap7@reddit
Of course. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
catch22_SA@reddit
"Rhodesians"
Yeah ok buddy. Come visit Clifton or Constantia and then go to Nyanga, then see which ethnic groups suffers the most in South Africa.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
The problems in South Africa and Zimbabwe is entirely of their own making. Others when left with the colonial bequest have done well. In Africa not so much.
Good luck
catch22_SA@reddit
You're right, South Africans like the Boer-led National Party did cause a lot of problems in SA
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
They built the country. The current lot squandered the legacy.
Cheers
catch22_SA@reddit
Imagine building a country exclusively to cater to 10% of the population and then it doesn't quite work smoothly when the country has to accommodate the remaining 90% of the country.
Also my guy you could at least pretend to not stan Apartheid. Jesus fucking Christ.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
Apartheid was based on the Dutch system that separated Protestants and Catholics. It worked because both were of equal worth. It allowed both to live their lives as they saw fit. The failings of the Batau should be a matter of self-reflection for the interested as they continue to this day.
Cheers
inap7@reddit
This is an amazing case of "tell me you're racist without saying you're racist"
catch22_SA@reddit
You need to get a new crack pipe my dude, your current one isn't filtering out enough of the bullshit.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
You deny that Apartheid was based on a system that separated Protestants and Catholics allowing them to live their lives as they saw fit? And recommend that the Bantau avoid reflecting on the squalor of their creation?
Good thing that the South Africans gave up their nuclear weapons eh.
Cheers
catch22_SA@reddit
Yes everything you said is coming from your crack pipe. Get a new one.
Also South Africa should have kept it's nukes.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
Australians don't have a need for 'crack pipes' mate. We prefer a good glass of red.
And happy to chat but lets play the ball, not the man eh.
Cheers
catch22_SA@reddit
If it's not coming from a crack pipe then it's coming directly from your head. Better get that checked out.
Free-Range-Cat@reddit
All the best
the_pwnererXx@reddit
When you are 4x more likely to be murdered - and tortured/raped, I would leave too
rationalidiot16@reddit
your last post is comparing socialists to climate deniers… lmfao
RagingMayo@reddit
What kind of white nationalism troll are you. There is an actual white South African disagreeing with your racist world view and you can't let the reality of white and black people relations phase you.
the_pwnererXx@reddit
According to your comment history you are Tunisian living in the UK
inap7@reddit
I am a South African living in South Africa. There is zero white persecution.
South Africa has very incredible and violent crimes yes. There is no excusing that. Is there a targeted effort against white people? Absolutely fucking not.
White people represent 7-8% of the country. They represent approx 2% of total murders. If you are a black man, you're more likely to get murdered than any other demographic.
IsadoraUmbra@reddit
I am an actual white South African and I can 100% confirm the whole "white genocide" is total bullshit. Also people freaking out over an old struggle song is equally ridiculous - I have never in my life felt threatened for being white. In my experience people get along her and are generally friendly and kind to each other. Watch this white French cyclist's South African leg of his recent trip through Africa to see what it's really like here :)
The-Lord_ofHate@reddit
It's not me who made that comment, I said to the guy to scroll down to find that same comment on this post. Read my post properly please
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Please add a link to the comment and quote his comment by adding > before text
the_pwnererXx@reddit
Embarrassing, good luck with your foreskin
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
He is copying this guy comment
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/myOOkv0LBx
isaybullshit69@reddit
It took me a long ass time to realise EFF here doesn't mean Electronic Frontier Foundation.
ObjectiveObserver420@reddit (OP)
First, the videos played on the flatscreen tv were taken out of context. The “Kill the farmer” songs are apartheid-era chants meant to bring attention to the past struggle and not a modern-day incitement.
Second, the EFF is a fringe group of radical Communists who have minimal support (and shrinking) amongst the population. They are allowed to exist due to the constitution which also allows Shari’a law political parties to exist. Portraying them as having significant power to execute changes in constitutional legislation is like saying the KKK has the power to direct government policy.
I am not really sure what is sparking the recent anti-South Africa wave but I suspect that it has something to do with our ICJ case against Israel, or our neutrality towards Russia, Iran, Cuba and other nations the US views unfavourably.
SabziZindagi@reddit
White supremacists have been banging the South Africa drum for years, this is happening now because Trump gave them power in the mainstream.
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
And straight off the bat, here's some racist Trump freak coming along to promote that neo-NAZI bullshit.
ReallyTeddyRoosevelt@reddit
Trump belongs in prison but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. He baited the racists and they couldn't wait to identify themselves.
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
Trump engaged in racism. Trump repeated neo-NAZI, white supremacist propaganda.
You're right, Trump baited the racists.. He brought racists like yourself out to rush to embrace a neo-NAZI lie.
ReallyTeddyRoosevelt@reddit
Remember when the Republican bussed immigrants to Democrat cities and the Democrats had a meltdown and it swung the immigration issue by like 15% towards Republicans? This is the same thing in reverse. Trump critics are openly showing everyone they don't care about refugees.
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
Sure, I remember when Republicans bused migrants from where the facilities for aiding, screening and integrating migrants are, to places that have no facilities for migrants.
Racist liars like yourself made great use of the propaganda that created.
Those white supremacist apartheid era South Africans aren't refugees, they're just your fellow far right extremists.
Obviously you love that Trump is rolling out the welcome mat for your fellow racists.
420Migo@reddit
Yea I dunno dude usually when you have political parties calling for genocide you arrest them pass laws to ban that kind of hate speech.
Not to mention Ramaphosa had some white ppl there to back him up and one only ended up confirming that anti white hate crimes are rampant.
ShamScience@reddit
Hello. I am a white South African living in South Africa. Thank you for your concern, but we're really fine, thanks. Obviously there are problems, but nobody is picking on us poor little whites. We're still generally better off than average.
Prestigious-Pea7436@reddit
Okay you can say this but no one cares to believe you because we have eyes.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
We just seen a white guy from south Africa say the exact opposite, and he was a dude that was brought as some sort of political ambassador. I also seen the leader of a political party talking about killing white people, so forgive my skepticism.
envysn@reddit
You have clearly gained your entire understanding of this issue from social media soundbites. Do yourself a favour and actually google what is happening in South Africa. Look at a few different sources, read articles from different global outlets, then form your own opinion rather than letting other people tell you what to think in 7 second chunks.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Don't pontificate to me, white south African farmers make up 0.066% of the population and are murdered at 1500% their population, that coupled with the leader of a political party singing about murdering them paints a clear picture. It would take somebody being purposely obtuse, like you are, to not understand.
inap7@reddit
So. I am South African. Firstly. There is zero form of any white persecution. Those who cry foul do not like being treated as equal South Africans. White Afrikaners have a continued history of privilege in South Africa and I guess when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
Secondly. Where do you get your stats? Farm murders (which are on average of 50 per year, with 44 last year) make up approximately 0.2% of murders (there are approximately 27000 murders annually). Of the attached figures, 8 out of the 44 farm murders were those who were white - thats 0.03% of total murders.
Taking a step back to investigate total murders in SA, white people in South Africa represent 8% of the population. They represent 2% of total murders.
You do seem misinformed - please feel free to ask any questions
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
I'll edit my comment, because as I further look into it, your right, and the figure doesn't seem correct. Thanks for the correction
But I'd like to ask how you believe no persecution if a political leader is speaking about murdering a group of people because of race? And that group represents a significant portion of the population.
ShamScience@reddit
Because that particular party has been singing that song for over a decade without engaging in any substantial violence. They don't mean it literally. (And if I'm wrong, it's my neck on the line, so I'm well motivated to understand this.)
It helps to understand the context. They didn't create the song, it's a much older anti-apartheid song. It gets repeated these days mostly as a way to draw on feelings of that old struggle. It's a political symbol. But even back in the apartheid days, the song wasn't generally acted on by most activists. Non-white South Africans generally don't want to kill us, let alone commit a whole genocide.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Im not saying non white south Africans want to kill you, im saying that the guy singing "kill the boer" is a dangerous, racist. Its a call for violence regardless of the double meaning. Do I think it will incite a genocide? Of course not, but I absolutely believe it can cause some isolated violent attacks. He's undoubtedly aware of the actual words he's saying, I don't entirely buy "kill the boer" to be a harmless gesture. But you definitely would know better than I do, I'll maintain skepticism, but i appreciate you giving your viewpoint.
__El_Presidente__@reddit
AFAIK isn't "boer" nowadays used to refer to white nationalist types while white people refer to themselves as "afrikaner"?
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Maybe? Maybe not? That's not how he's using it.
ShamScience@reddit
People sing angry songs because things aren't arranged in a fair way. We are among the most economically unequal countries in the world. Our solution to that won't be banning a trivial song. That ban won't feed anyone's kids.
Instead, the real way to get rid of the song is to help people more. Share the abundant wealth in some fair way, so that people aren't working just to have enough money to afford transport to get back to work again. I'm far more concerned about the people actually struggling to live day to day, than about a song that could potentially be interpreted to be a vague threat against me. Please believe me, I am really not the victim in this story.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
With all due respect, I don't care if you feel you are the victim personally, we can help people out and try to fix wealth inequality and all that great stuff without calling for murder because of someone's skin color. And for what its worth, the song isn't exactly vague, its pretty direct and explicit.
ShamScience@reddit
I only bring myself into it because of the people overseas saying that I, the white guy, am the one who needs protection. It would be wrong of me not to turn that down, because it's so completely unnecessary and because the people originally selling that story have far less noble intentions.
You're free to dislike the song. I don't think it's a great tune myself. (Have you actually heard it, or just read about it?) I'm just trying to make clear that it's a pretty hollow threat. Distasteful, sure. But so far from being a high priority, even for those who sing it. Don't stress yourself over it.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Im not stressed, I'm not south African. Im just calling a spade a spade.
ShamScience@reddit
Well... You're calling what someone else has told you is a spade a spade. I think the spadeness of it is very exaggerated. From the local perspective, you seem more like you're calling a spoon a spade.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
No... i understand your perspective, and I disagree. As I said before, its pretty direct. "Kill the boer". Other locals may agree, they may disagree. But as it stands, its pretty clear from my perspective.
inap7@reddit
Thats a great question. My personal take is I'll never defend the singing of "Kill the Boer".
Just for some context, the EFF have just under 10% of the vote in SA. Its arguable how significant their power is, but they do hold 39 seats out of 400 in parliament. The coalition government purposely did not include the EFF due to its ridiculous policies and they do not hold enough power to even be the official opposition party
The song has its roots in Apartheid, where a "Boer" was synonymous with an Afrikaner (and more so farmer given that its direct translation from Afrikaans to English is farmer) and was a struggle song during apartheid. I'm sure I don't need to explain how apartheid worked. An analogy of this would be to imagine the Jewish population singing "kill all Nazi's" during WWII. The argument used by the EFF is that the song is symbolic and not a literal call to action. Whilst I do disagree with their premise, an analogy used is "Bella Ciao" from Money Heist - its a song which encouraged violence against facism during WWII and still sung today.
Now that context is out of the way, Julius Malema has been singing this song for the past 15 years or so. There's yet to be any marked increase in white violence in South Africa - if anything, white crime has decreased post apartheid. The song, whilst it is very racist, does not (and has not) incited any recorded violence or mobilised people to cause any violence - hence no persecution (white people are not persecuted at all in SA).
TL;DR - Julius Malema and the EFF are populist turds with no power. They are controversional for the sake of trying to remain relevant. White crime has decreased in recent years and there is no empircal link from the song to any increase in white crime and violence.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
That makes a decent amount of sense, so they are racists, but you don't believe them to be particularly dangerous in the current form is what I'm getting?
inap7@reddit
Again, I think thats a very good question.
I don't believe Julius Malema is particularly dangerous - he's a champagne socialist who exists solely to enrich himself. I cannot imagine any situation where he could (or would) ever lead a bunch of people to violence because I think he's quite a pussy.
However, anything could potentially develop, and I think the 2021 riots are evidence that mobilisation could cause some unrest and I'm sure that some leader could direct that against white people. But, "kill the boer" has yet to incite any violence yet thankfully.
The average South African quite honestly just wants to get along - be it white, black, coloured, brown. I definitely do think racism (both institutional and personal) still remains because its hard to get rid of ingrained mindsets from all parties, but there is no systemic attack on the white population
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Why is your comment so similar to the other guy's comment?
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/wv93VWA7AR
ShamScience@reddit
That is odd, but seems like they didn't quote me the right way.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
That person seems to have tried and failed to quote the comment here, judging by their later reply.
BluePillCypher@reddit
THANK YOU. I dont know why they're trying to divide us when we've been spending years getting to know each other more and relate.
IsadoraUmbra@reddit
Same, can confirm it's just the usual US modus operandi when they want to mess with a country - they just make shit up. We're totally fine over here guys, stop buying into scams :) You can literally watch loads of travel channels on YT to see what the real situation on the ground is if you want to.
Imaginary_Seesaw_979@reddit
"i speak for all whites when i say"
ShamScience@reddit
Don't be silly, of course not. But I do have a far more direct perspective than any non-South African talking crap online from thousands of kilometers away. I am here, I am in it, I can see perfectly well what's happening and not happening. There is no genocide.
Imaginary_Seesaw_979@reddit
you are like an israeli telling us that he lives there and there is no genocide in palestine, just stop
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Would be more like a Palestinian from Gaza saying it I guess. Except they wouldn't say that, because they'd be busy trying to survive in the rubble of their destroyed without any food because the entire place is under siege, something that isn't true for white South Africans.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
It's a fact that there is no Genocide, I don't get why people like you seem to insist on it.
South Africa just has a massive crime and poverty problem and yes, without a doubt a big hate crime problem probably linked to the fact their fourth largest party are far right radicals calling for violence(Which according to SA law is illegal so yeah it'd be wise to get on that before it gets even further out of hand.)
However these things are internal issue to SA and with how much of a mess the nation is one can expect what one sees in other countries with crime and corruption problems, inneffective non solutions or just a downright absense of intervention.
ManicParroT@reddit
There was a lawsuit. Highest court ruled it was not hate speech. Obviously not my ideal outcome and on that many South Africans disagree with but we're not overthrowing our constitutional order to please Trump.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Uhhhh glances at American Republican party
CRoss1999@reddit
The eff are not in government federally or in any province. Why should the government coalition crack down on Empty threats by the fringe
420Migo@reddit
Because they're radicalizing young men..
SA Law enforcement already said a lot of these crimes are from younger men 18-30 years old.. What are the chances these fringe ppl are like Andrew Tate and has influence to make them think bigoted?
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
So now you oppose free speech?
420Migo@reddit
This is a bit more extreme than just "free speech"... but I mean... I could ask you the same, you support free speech to the extreme now? Even genocidal rhetoric should be protected?
DeepState_Auditor@reddit
Genocidal rhetoric does not make a crime itself, but it adds to the body of evidence of intent, when you have real data backing like blocking aid, mass murder of civilians, destruction of infractracture made to support life,... etc
The crime is making the claim and following up on it.
marvin_bender@reddit
So, if in Portugal a political party would start to openly campaign for the killing of some minorities you would be ok with that and think it should be allowed?
DeepState_Auditor@reddit
I mean we do have a rising political party whose obsessed with blaming Romani and immigrant communities even out defending fatal police shootings and beatings without needing context.
So we are basicly half way there also, these dudes use code all the time you trying to spot them from using specific phrasing in public(very important) is not going to stop them or their supporters from acting on their desires.
Which would most definitely be still considered to be a crime. A sometimes wonder why ppl are more concerned about the thought crime then the tangible actions.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
While I agree there isn't a Genocide.
There are also limits to free speech, yes, even in the US, one of which is directly calling for violence/inciting violence on a certain group and I'd say a major political party leading a chant "Kill the boer" while a stadium of their radicalized supporters joins it falls under calling for violence and inciting violence.
And after a quick search South Africa also has these restrictiona on Free Speech, which begs the question as to why the courts don't enforce it.
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
Notice how the racist freak says "major political party" about a fringe group with no power polling below 10%.
Dude has to lie to exaggerate and fear monger.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
Eh, it is the fourth largest party with a little under 10% vote share translating to over 1.5 million total votes out of the 16.3 million that voted last elections.
So while they are certainly not in power I would classify them as a major political party.
Seems like we simply disagree on what constitutes a large political party. All things considered, I wouldn't like it if blatant Ethno Nationalists even got a single seat in parliament in my country, let alone 39. But hey I guess thats lying and fearmongering lol.
Eastern-Fish-7467@reddit
Is hate speech free speech? Is calls to violence free speech? This is the hill your dying on?
Responsible-Bunch316@reddit
Israel fucking doesn't. Why's Trump not showing them videos?
Bobert789@reddit
Right wingers will happily claim this as a genocide but calling what's happening in Gaza a genocide is laughable, makes no sense etc etc
I'm sure much more Palestinians have been killed since October 7th, especially compared to the amount of white South Africans killed for being white
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
I’m right wing, see and call the situation in Palestine as very obviously genocide in its most advanced stages.
Does it have to reach such an abominable point where people are massacred wholesale and starved to death intentionally before you will be willing to say it’s a bad situation?
Radomeculture531@reddit
I know some people are saying it isn't bad(mostly SA btw), I don't think most people don't think it's a nothing. It's definitely racist. But calling it a genocide seems over the top, ESPECIALLY when some of that same group won't use that label for Gaza. I would also say calling it a genocide should have to reach an extraordinary benchmark so that the word doesn't lose its meaning.
inap7@reddit
Your premise here is incorrect. You assume there is some persecution happening against white South Africans, but its not significant enough to be labelled as genocide. There cannot be levels to the significance of any white persecution because it simply does not exist.
There is no white persecution happening. End of story.
Radomeculture531@reddit
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
inap7@reddit
If you repeat a lie long enough, you eventually believe it. Thats whats been happening on the internet by racist white Afrikaners. There is no spectrum of validity to any of these claims
Radomeculture531@reddit
Here's the thing. What you are saying is there is ZERO persecution. Persecution meaning hostility or ill treatment based on certain factors, race being one of them. I believe there is not enough to call it anything more than average racism. But to say ZERO is not factual. The video played this weekend shows it's not zero. That's all I'm pointing out. Your argument is stronger if you don't deny it's happening at all.
inap7@reddit
Do you understand the context of the video? Not attacking you or anything, but a genuine question to whether you have an understanding of apartheid and the relevance and context of struggle songs. Not to mention how little support Julius Malema has, and how there has been no uptick in any white crime from the time he has been trying to sow division in SA.
I stand by the zero persecution, because there is no law, call-to-action, or any systemic policy which creates hostility or ill-treatment of the white population.
White South Africans, on average, experience less crime proportionally than other races in South Africa. You can make fair arguments that there might be anecodtal prejudice by certain individuals onto others, but thats always going to a personal, not systemic or institutional case.
There is no white genocide, or persecution of white South Africans. End of story.
Freethecrafts@reddit
That’s strong words Yoda. You coming out?
HomeworkOwn2146@reddit
0 persecution? So the race laws don't exist now do they?
inap7@reddit
Can you clarify which race laws? Are you talking about BBBEE?
HomeworkOwn2146@reddit
inap7@reddit
Do you understand the context of any of these laws? Or did you just chatGPT it?
You do realise that 62% of managerial positions are owned by white people, despite only being 7% of the population? Please tell me how they are being persecuted, considering apartheid ended 30 years ago.
Employment equity laws effectively state that if two candidates have exactly the same qualifications and experience, the person of colour will be preferred. If the white candidate is even slightly better, it falls away.
Preferential procurement has different mechanisms, depending on contract value with 90/10 or 80/20 depending. Smart pricing can effectively negate any preferential procurement and its a mechanism for black businesses to actually participate in the economy. You know, the one where they have historically been institutionalised against?
I can go through each of these laws and give you context, because you clearly don't understand the nuance behind any of them.
The only laws which are unfair from the ones listed are the higher education act and sports quotas. Some universities have bypassed the racial quotas for needs based, which works well with racial demographics for those who need. Sports quotas are quite ridiculous, because teams are not chosen on merit. This is hardly persecution of a race.
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
I would say anyone who calls SA a genocide but does not call Palestine a genocide is either profoundly ignorant, actively supportive of the genocide, or a political hack.
My question about this issue is why the opposition to allowing the White South Africans to leave? If the aim is to expropriate the land then why not allow them to claim refugee status in another country willing to take them? That is not the position of someone who I can trust when they say that chanting “kill all White people” is nothing serious
inap7@reddit
As per one of my other comments - there is no white persecution happening. End of story. There is no genocide, or elevated rate of white crime. It is solely a narrative pushed by a select group of white Afrikaners who feel they are victimised. But equality always feels like oppression when you're used to privilege.
The expropriation bill is often touted as some racist policy - but thats not what it says it all. In summary, the bill states that unproductive land in the country may be taken by the state for public purpose and interest. The key word used is unproductive - there is no legal basis to take productive farm land from any owner.
Re your comment regarding "Kill all white people" which actually refers to the song "Kill the Boer" is a symbolic struggle song from apartheid. Imagine a bunch of jews singing "Kill all nazis" during WWII. White people are less likely to be the victim of a violent crime in South Africa in comparison to any other demograpic. The song, whilst yes racist, and also horrible, has never mobilised or incited any violence in SA.
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
I think you are full of shit 😉
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SabziZindagi@reddit
Where is the "kill all white people chant"? And they aren't refugees, they are the wealthiest group.
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
Two seconds on any video website will produce one of many rally videos.
I do not think you are being serious for a moment
SabziZindagi@reddit
So you can't actually provide evidence of this chant.
Disastrous-Extent-30@reddit
Genocide has lost its meaning. Dismissing this is exactly why it is has. It's why people say that its not genocide in palestine even tho it very clearly is
KitchenDepartment@reddit
Do you have no other words to describe a bad situation other than "there is a ongoing genocide"?
aMutantChicken@reddit
he didnt prove there was a genocide, but he did prove 10% that the sentiment required to have one is there in african leaders. Change the red outfits in the video for pointy white hoods and bingo; a very familiar image.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Except it isn’t. Like at all.
ANC is firmly against racialism including against white people.
PiedBolvine@reddit
Cuba banned racism
Cuba has rampant racism
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
they do not seem to be taking any action against it.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Besides several times trying to put the EFF president in jail for racialism.
420Migo@reddit
Yea I dunno dude you cant have civilized countries having political parties spewing that kind of rhetoric.
flufflogic@reddit
But there's plenty that do. Just in the UK there's been several parties that have backed calls for the Navy to open fire on small boats crossing the Channel. I'm sure there's similar rhetoric throughout the Mediterranean.
catch22_SA@reddit
Ah but that doesn't count because those are white countries you see. When black countries spew that sort of rhetoric then they're barbarians, but if white countries do the same then they're just patriotic or whateverthefuck /s
lvl1squid@reddit
There is also a slight difference between saying "open fire on boats" presumably meaning illegal aliens and/or smugglers -- and saying "kill the boer" who are valuable citizens of our country.
Not that I'm for opening fire on anyone but I don't think these are really equivalent.
SabziZindagi@reddit
It happens often, you just choose to focus on one group for some weird reason.
Born-Procedure-5908@reddit
The claims of white genocides are overblown but the atmosphere relating to racial tensions over there is just a fuse waiting to light up. South Africa’s standards of living under the dominant ANC party has plummeted since they only seem content on milking Mandela’s legacy rather than enforcing effective policies, lots of their current issues will and already have been shifted onto wealthy landowners (mostly white) despite their lack of political representation
ShamScience@reddit
This was largely intentional. From around 2000, there was a big drive for privatisation, which took all sorts of government services and sold them on to for-profit companies. The stated intention was "increased efficiency".
My biggest concern at the moment is the South African education system. Since very recently, the government just isn't paying for enough teachers anymore, and the explicit goal is that private schools will absorb the qualified teachers and displaced students. Most parents can't afford that, but private owners will still profit more anyway.
It's just the same old privatisation scam as most places see.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
As you are South African, I wondered, if all these issues keep getting larger, seemingly as a result of corruption and incompetence, why do people still loyally vote for the same party? Wouldn't it be wise to try something else sometime, or is there just an absense of relevant/competent opposition?
lvl1squid@reddit
South african here. You pretty much answered your question already. Loyalty, corruption and no competent opposition.
Loyalty because the ANC are the ones who fought so hard against apartheid. A lot of the older generation are just loyal to the end for that.
Corruption is also a big issue. There are people who get into politics to get rich, not to make any change. What better way than to support a corrupt party? Get into a party rife with corruption. Embrace corruption. Profit.
The last point is a bit more debateable - there are no competent parties. The DA have a pretty good record but they do not appeal to the majority. They're seen as a party for white people and white interests. I've even spoken to people who were worried if the DA go back to apartheid. That's obviously not going to happen but on the more reasonable side of that, people are concerned that a DA government would not do enough to help black people and instead focus to keep their loyal white supporters happiest.
Things are changing though - DA and other parties did gain votes. ANC lost votes. We now have a coalition government. Hopefully in the next elections we will be able to take more steps in the right direction, be it voting for DA or another party that can prove itself.
As for the general situation. I'm white. I don't see a genocide here. I live in a city so I can't comment much on farmers but keep in mind that whites in south africa tend to be better off financially. Farmers are usually quite well off and they're in remote rural areas that police cannot respond to quickly. It makes sense that they would be targeted for crimes. I will also say there could be racially motivated crimes, some might be motivated by the idea of land grabs (as Zimbabwe experienced. I don't know of farms here being taken without consequence) but they're not statistically significant to call it a genocide imho.
On the other hand, I personally can't stand Julius JuJu Malema (the guy singing kill the boer) and I am extremely disappointed that our constitutional court allows it. There is context of it being a "struggle song" but personally I think that doesn't justify it. I'm not the con-court though so my opinion is just that. I don't think there is a white genocide but I do think that Juju is and his rhetoric is harmful to our peace and reconciliation and attempts to move forward from apartheid.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
Seems very odd that there is no competent opposition in a country that quite obviously could use it. Do you know what the reason for it is?
I get that for the older generation, but given SA has well over a third of it's registered voters being under 30 doesn't that also change voting behavior given these people were born post apartheid? Or do they juat not vote? Remain loyal to the ANC via parents? Can't find much on youth voting patterns in SA myself.
Yeah, but that sorta brings me to point one, it would seem to me like that naturally leads to a counter reaction with more idealistic people forming an alternative to the norm given SA is a democracy and all I would guess that the ruling party can't/doesn't suppress the opposition.
Have they made an effort to address that and become more of an all-encompasing party? Or do they simply try to retain their base at all costs?
It would probably help a lot if there was more plurality so coalitions have to be formed and a single party can't just effectively rule alone or with minimal support, but yeah, that would require competent opposition partiea.
Yeah, you don't have to convince me there, I am on the side of no genocide, can't really be on any other side there factually at least. Just lots of corruption, crime with a likely "healthy" sprinkle of hatecrime in the mix.
Oh the consitutional court allowed it? Damn that seems weird at best, I mean it is hard not to see it as an incitement or call to violence tbh.
lvl1squid@reddit
The youth tend to just not vote, vote ANC because of their parents, or they vote towards EFF (Malema's party) Malema is a populist and quite radical which is usually attractive to younger adults unfortunately.
With regards to the DA, they're not a party by whites for whites, it's obviously more nuanced than that and they do have non-white members and voters. They're quite popular with coloureds too (an ethnic group, not "PoC". Also excuse me if I use "whites" "blacks" etc to describe people. It's a bit more normal here to use those words. I know it might be seen as offensive by some especially internationally)
But in the end of the day their PR has not been great. They've had some racist members. Made dumb comments on Twitter. They lean very much towards the USA and western world. Lots of Jewish voters too so they also somewhat side with Israel in the current conflict. It's not a great look when the majority of the country are not white, not Jewish, have disdain for "the west" etc.
We have had a few other parties try to be leading opposition. Usually off-shoots of disgruntled ANC members. They usually get a few votes and maybe a seat in parliament at best then fizzle out before the next election cycle. EFF is probably the one doing the best and surviving the longest although we're honestly screwed if they ever won.
I have colleagues/friends that said they'd vote EFF. They like Julius as a "watchdog" but even they were saying he'd be a bad president. It's just good to keep him around to bark at the ANC according to them.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
Yeah radicalism tends to attract youths, however I do imagine there must be a lot more going on if they vote for someone like that, it would be the equivalent to the youth here voting for extreme ethno nationalist statists.
So they are a party more popular with minorities in general then? Does that include the sizeable Asian population?
That is more an American/Wider Anglosphere thing, I am Dutch and we tend to refer to groups when using racial terms as "Wit, Zwart, Getint, Gemixt" etc. Which translates to White, Black, Tanned, Mixed etc, so no worries there.
Is the disdain for the west a result of Apartheid? Or more of a result of a general African trend of anti Western views probably stemming from Colonialism?
It honestly seems weird that such a radical party manages to be a sustained opposition force when you would expect disgruntled ANC members already have the experience to form and manage a party.
Not sure how I'd respond to that if I was a non Black South African, it's like using a rabid Pitbull as a guard dog, just as kuch chance of it biting you in the face. I guesa it boils down to an absense of choice or just a hidden stream of radicalism dressed with an excuse.
lvl1squid@reddit
Keep in mind all my answers are really just my opinion as an average working class white dude here.. so it's tricky for me to speak on behalf on non-whites and I'm not a sociologist or professional in any of these matters. (Also I was born at the end of apartheid, so I never actually lived that experience myself)
Regarding the disdain for the west in general- I don't think the people who were oppressed by apartheid really draw a line. In a way it's all just colonialism. Whether it was the British or the Afrikaners. It's easy enough to say Afrikaners are European descent and just an extension of colonialism in a way.
Regarding ANC off-shoots: the party was never really truly united imho. There were always factions within the party, resulting in in-fighting and ultimately a schism. You can have a schism and still not have a good alternative. EFF and MK are both ANC off-shoots and both are radical and extremely corrupt lol. There was a party called COPE that seemed decent but I think they just fizzled out because they didn't have a big 'faction' behind them to pull support away from ANC.
(Think of people like Trump who have their own little cults. If Trump ran as a Democrat or an independent it probably wouldn't matter much. He's got his own loyal supporters who will follow wherever. It's the same kind of thing with Zuma and Julius imho)
ManicParroT@reddit
As a rule of thumb their supporters tend to be about 45% white, 20% black, 20% coloured and Indian (Asian) making up the balance. The DA also are a bit better at GOTV and white voters are more likely to be registered (and vote) than black voters, which gives them a bit of an edge.
ANC is mostly black, as are EFF and MK Party.
However, if you look at the overall demographics of the country, you simply can't win an election without breaking through into the black demographic in a big way. \~80% of South Africans are black, so even if every single minority person in the country voted for you, you'd still be far short of a national majority. This is rather like the UK - 80% of Brits are white, so imagine a party with few white voters winning a UK election. Not possible.
The DA consistently get around 20% of the vote, and their entry into the coalition government is more due to the ANC breaking up (first EFF splintered, then the MK party broke off and took a bunch of votes and supporters), rather than the DA actually making electoral gains.
The big question is whether their time in government helps them in the next election. I will say that they've done some clever messaging (talking about "DA Ministers" to highlight their successes, versus ANC failures), but we'll see if it sticks.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
For older folk, the ANC are still seen as the party that ended apartheid and nothing they do will ever lose them that bump - you see this in a lot of post-colonial countries. (For example, South Africa's neighbour, Namibia, has yet to have a party other than the independence-era SWAPO in charge.) That being said, the tide is slowly turning precisely because young people, who don't remember the victories these parties had 30 years ago, want something that actually works.
ShamScience@reddit
Ah, now you're onto the actual interesting topic of discussion, because it's definitely complicated and difficult to research. You're talking about millions of voters, over several decades and multiple generations (and their clear majority choice for most of those years), and a party that was long ago built as a broad tent for a lot of different factions, some of which have gone, and with some newer replacement factions added in. Anyone who tells you it comes down to just a single, simple factor is wrong, either ill-informed or intentionally misleading.
Very, very generally, some of the major factors have been persistent gratitude for the end of apartheid and the associated fear of regressing to a new apartheid, benefits (however small) that are still felt at some level or another, insufficient education about the full range of ideological and policy options people could have, as well as the education and governance experience to implement these. Even within the ruling party, there have always been a lot of very different ideas of what to do (the broad tent), but how and why some voices dominate on certain issues is another whole discussion.
It's also important to dig into the main 2nd-place party over most of the last few decades. I don't believe they have any real chance, in their current form, of actually taking a majority, and I don't foresee any substantial reform among them within this generation at least. So instead, they just drain a very large (but never winning) number of voters from all sorts of other parties that, with a boost, could potentially be real challengers. And here we do get into the race stuff for certain, because the majority of white voters have clung to this always-second party, quite often outside of their own or anyone's best interests. While the ruling party often panders to big business, the always-second party pretty much exclusively panders to big business. And while white owners remain disproportionately prominent among big business owners and investors, most white South Africans are not that wealthy, and don't really benefit from propping up our richer cousins. But there's still a weird bond of skin colour identity for many. So that complicates the picture for the entire rest of the electorate.
But those are just some very broad, basic, introductory thoughts on some (but not all) of the factors to consider.
I'd just add that the 2024 national election here did change a few old patterns quite a bit, and it'll be interesting to see how things continue to develop in 2029, etc.
ForumFluffy@reddit
I'm sure some vote ANC because they have always voted for them, others for fear of the unknown as when they got the right to vote ANC has been in power and the fear of losing that might outweigh the rest.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
For the older generations I'd say thats fair, but for the younger generations that were raised in post Apartheid SA that make up well over a third of the registered voters, I'd wonder whether that doesnt change their perspective.
Bjt then again I have np clue whether turnout amongst the youth is high or low in SA and what they vote for when they do.
inap7@reddit
South Africa has many problems. Two of our biggest problems are education and unemployment, where we are close to the bottom ranking of both in the world.
Political parties who campaign in rural areas often have the wildest promises (free tertiary education, massive amounts of jobs, etc) and a common tactic is to give attendees at these rallys, some KFC or similar food. A lot of votes are effectively bought this way, given ignorance and lack of education.
Voter apathy is also pretty insane. Less than 60% of registered voters voted last year. Thats excluding unregistered but eligible voters - which are by and large the youth.
IsadoraUmbra@reddit
I've voted for the ANC before because they have the best policy IMO and there is no opposition that is any less corrupt so I'd rather vote for a party I can at least try and hold to account based on their own policy.
Ok-Western-4176@reddit
Yeah another response said that there is pretty much no competent or uncorrupt opposition, so that makes it make more sense.
Still if that was the case in my country I'd rather take a chance on an opposition party then stick with guaranteed corruption and ineptitude.
IsadoraUmbra@reddit
Yeah it's a tricky one for sure - but for me personally I think policy is extremely important, I can't vote for a party with policy I fundamentally disagree with because I'm guaranteed to be unhappy with whatever they do and I'll have no recourse - the US is a really telling example of what happens when people don't bother to read actual policy.
That being said, I didn't actually vote for the ANC in the most recent election, but my primary reason was that I don't feel like I can vote for neoliberal capitalism anymore. The corruption is systemic (and global) IMO.
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
Yeah, I mean when I can see a major political party having “kill all these White farmers, shoot them all” rallies I don’t need to wait until all the White South Africans have already been murdered to see where this is going.
GothicGolem29@reddit
It sounds like that party is a minor party not major from what I’ve heard
SabziZindagi@reddit
This is completely made up.
Emotional_Artist4139@reddit
No it isn’t back up your exceptional claim with something I think we have all seen at least one eff rally video
bluecheese2040@reddit
South Africa is a heaven for all people with no problems at all.
Let's be honest if biden or Obama said this...the reaction would be totally different.
whakahere@reddit
And politicians are always told to bring up how minorities are being treated in a country. The media has to stop complaining about everything trump does. Every headline are charged words to set the mindset.
Really, can they just save it, and not cry wolf on everything.
AYE-BO@reddit
Social media has made politics absolutely unbearable. I feel for you guys in other countries that have to see our drama all the time. Doesnt matter which party is in charge over here, the media is constantly blasting out headlines that portray the current US president is hitler/stalin, but when you actually do some research, its blown out of proportion. Most of the time. Some of the stuff our presidents do is pretty wild.
BAKREPITO@reddit
Which nations's leader is going to visit the Oval now after Zelensky and now this? Trump is unhinged, no world leader is going to risk a visit to endure humiliation on foreign turf. Xi already had those qualms during the tariff saga, and now I bet the same is going to be the case with most major countries.
ACHEBOMB2002@reddit
White People in South Africa still live lives exponentially better than their black counterparts, they are crying about a song while tens of thousands of the suposed agresors die each year from the poverty induced petty crime, nothing is enough for this people even if everything is going for them they yell and sob about fantasies of being the real victims all along