Too much time for entry level jobs, not enough experience for anything else

[-]

I actually was offered a PIC job there but the non commutable nature and seasonal base changing is incompatible with my life at 43. I would have jumped on that in my 20s, it sounds like a lot of fun and challenging flying.

[-]

BLUEANGEL36869@reddit

I trained a gentleman who was in law school and decided he really wanted to be a pilot. He was a low time PPL. I two years he got the ratings and flight time to hire Cape Air as S/O. Upgraded to Capt. Moved on to Jet Blue , moved on to Major.

I was 38 with lots of Corporate Jet time and hired at UAL. First year my salary dropped from 100K to 28K. But I knew what the future would bring. A lot of sacrifices have to be made for such a competitive job. It really boils down to how much you want to fly professionally regardless of the pay, equipment, location. It’s the burning desire they talk about. With the competition your age is a drawback. But if you want a career change it is possible.

[-]

f1racer328@reddit

How much time do you have within the past 6 months? Are you flying a lot?

Have you applied to any regionals? 2000 hours should be good to go at a regional, but their hiring has slowed down a ton.

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

52 hours. I applied to every regional 14 months ago (and I figured having ATP done would save them on paying for the CTP class). Only two bothered to reply. Got a CJO at OO a year ago that they ghosted me on ever giving a class date, and an interview at Envoy but not a job offer. The 22 year old kid in the interview room with me at Envoy who didn't even have 1200 hours and no more experience than teaching in 172s mostly in good weather got an offer. I had all my time in high performance experimental airplanes, almost all of it cross country, dealing with weather, lots of actual time in the IFR system. I thought my time was just as good as 1200 hours flying the traffic pattern but I guess they didn't see it that way. The interviews were very different. Sky West was virtual, and very conversational. The old captain who conducted it said he would love to fly with me and thought my varied experience would be an asset. The envoy one was in person and was more like a "name this obscure symbol on this airport diagram" series of questions, many of which I probably got wrong. I later showed a few of them to my friends who work at legacy carriers or captain heavy biz jets and they didn't know them either so I didn't feel as bad.

[-]

Mavtroll1@reddit

If you got to the interview stage, hours wasn’t the issue. You failed the interview panel. You should have asked for feedback at the time to figure out why instead of blaming the system for choosing somebody else.

I would suggest the attitude of “I’m too good for entry level jobs, and my 2000hrs over 15 years is actually better experience than somebody flying 500+hrs a year as a CFI” had something to do with it.

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

I actually did ask for feedback, but they said they aren't allowed to provide it. Which is not helpful at all. I'm used to hearing that kind of feedback to improve. And I never said I was too good for entry level jobs, I'm literally only looking for that. I totally gave up on 121 at this point. But I can't even get a call back for an interview to fly light twins on pipeline patrol, which I think fits my piston flying experience just fine. And to compare the two 122 interviews I did manage to get, I thought one was easy and got an offer, the other one I thought was hard and didn't. I'm not blaming anyone except me however I did notice a huge difference between the two (one being a hour+ hangar flying session with a 40 year veteran pilot, and the other being what was the HR equivalent of an arcane FAA written test given in 15 minutes) and how different the outcomes were with the same knowledge in my head.

[-]

primalbluewolf@reddit

But I can't even get a call back for an interview to fly light twins on pipeline patrol

Is that an entry level job where you are?

Do they hire from overseas?

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

Generally yes pipeline patrol is a starter flying job. Getting right to work in the USA for non citizens is very difficult I hear (often requires company sponsorship and a special visa) so I doubt they would sponsor someone for that when there is a glut of domestic stock to pick from.

[-]

primalbluewolf@reddit

The special visa is trivial for me (E-3 Visa), but your entry level jobs are in twins?

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

There are, yes. Flying light piston twins like Piper Azteks... Not talking about turbine equipment here.

[-]

f1racer328@reddit

Did you ever do interview prep?

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

For both, yes. Apparently not enough for envoy although skywest he said I aced it. Guess they were looking for different stuff. Skywest was a lot about aircraft systems, generic flying and ADM questions, and what you would bring to the company through your life experiences. Chatty. Envoy was just the memory recall items. I geek out over systems (I designed and built the entire avionics panel in my plane) but the recall wasn't my strong point. There was so much in there to potentially know and be asked.

[-]

0621Hertz@reddit

The fact you’re deflecting that someone who has less hours than you got a job but you didn’t says a lot about your whole attitude of the situation. Who cares who got the job, he got it because his interview skills trumps your experience.

2,000 hours isn’t exactly a lot of time, I promise you Envoy didn’t give you a TBNT because you have too much time. You failed the interview and you need to own up to it.

Also you shouldn’t be calling 22 year olds “kids.”

[-]

best-quality-catfood@reddit

I had all my time in high performance experimental airplanes, almost all of it cross country, dealing with weather, lots of actual time in the IFR system.

If 91K/135 is interesting have you tried Plane Sense? That kind of background might float their boat.

[-]

SSMDive@reddit

In a good easy hiring market, meeting the minimums is all that matters. This is not an easy job market. Your lack of professional flying experience is looked at as not as good as someone with professional flying experience... 2K TT but a few hours as a freelance CFI is not an aviation job and the kid with 1500 that has been working as a CFI for 1200 hours will beat you every time in this market.

But, you had two interviews. You claim you got a CJO from one and a TBNT from the other. Two chances in this market is actually really good. And that interview you didn't do well on... That kid likely did his homework and knew what that obscure chart symbol was - There is a reason a gouge exists for interviews.

As for your claim that you "have too much time"... I doubt that is a thing. But if you feel that is true, omit a bunch of hours from your resume and see what happens. I'll bet you get fewer interviews and not more.

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

I requested the ERJ only and held off on the 5 year contract (they added it a few weeks before I interviewed now it's mandatory to even land an interview) so maybe that's what did me in not ever getting a class, but moved on from regional 121, that ship has sailed.

I was offered a PIC job at Cape Air and while I would have taken that in my 20s, the non commutable/moving bases for the season thing is incompatible with 43 year old me. Dragging the fam between San Juan and rural Montana twice a year isn't happening.

But when I did manage to talk to some of these super entry level flying jobs, they expressed concern that since I had enough time to quickly move on to something else that I would and that were hesitant to hire and train someone in that situation vs someone a few hundred hours under ATP mins.

[-]

SSMDive@reddit

Well you are in a rough spot.

That five year contract is not great, but you would be a year into it already if you had taken it. Not signing it and only the ERJ is very likely why they skipped you.

And yeah, if you applied to the place I work for with 2k hours and an ATP… I doubt we would take you. We have had people say they want to work for us and will stay at least a year then show up for training and get 50-100 hours multi turbine in training and leave before ever flying a revenue flight. Wastes our time and wears out our training pilots. As it stands now we were only keeping pilots for about a year and it is tough to get people and train them.

But you having hours does not seem to be why that regional skipped you. They wanted you for five years and you said no. And the other one, they asked you silly questions that you didn’t know because you didn’t study the gouge.

You could call that regional back up and offer to sign and take whatever airframe they want to give you… I doubt it would help, but you passed the interview and have the ATP already so you would still be a good candidate.

Good luck, this current market is not helping you.

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

I totally get it, I spent 20 years at a 4 man company and understand the difficulty and expense in hiring and training people, and that's not even a fraction of the expense of training an airline pilot. I would have no problem with committing for a year, even two, but five is really excessive especially if I decide it's not for me. The contract I was shown didn't even have an exception for losing your medical. The way it was written, you lose medical at 4 years and 11 months, you pay them 80 grand. (They later added an exception) I think a better way to go about retaining pilots at regionals is to incentivize them to stay, and money is a huge incentive for most people, although there are other incentives like scheduling and work life balance. Especially a regional that has is on par with "majors" in operation and revenue.

[-]

South-Coconut-4673@reddit

Best bet is to go to career fairs like WAI PAPA RTAG or OBAP and get some face time with a recruiter

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

Been to FAPA a few times. Gave out lots of resumes. Lot just said "hiring is extremely competitive". And the smaller 135 companies that are more likely to hire low time pilots need 500 hours multi time due to insurance requirements, which I'm nowhere near. So only it's regional airlines or netjets etc that can hire without all that twin time

[-]

_Cat1@reddit

Go to Europe. Many airlines will hire as low as 200 hours and you will fly a nice shiny jet. Wont get paid nearly as good as the us counter parts.

[-]

I_am_Mun_C@reddit

EASA cert conversion, medical, and obtaining the right to work, followed by receiving a job offer is going to be 10x more of a hassle than simply finding a flying job in the US.

[-]

_Cat1@reddit

Well if some people still dont have a job after 2000 hours, maybe the hassle isnt so big

[-]

redditburner_5000@reddit

Ameriflight? Alpine?

[-]

shadownights_7@reddit

Not hiring. Tried. I'd do almost anything for one of those positions.

[-]

LikenSlayer@reddit

Curious what's not in the "Almost anything" category.

[-]

Jzerious@reddit

“Just about nothing”

[-]

pscan40@reddit

I was on my 5th job by the time I reached 2,000 hours lol

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

And how did you get the first one? That seems to be my biggest problem. Can't even get the interview, let alone a job.

[-]

Downtown_Database402@reddit

It’s 90% who you know. You have to get out and network. My first two jobs flying jets came purely from knowing the right person and being able to drop everything and say “yes” when they asked if I could be at the airport in the morning to keep the the right seat warm on a trip. If they like you they’ll keep calling you for more trips. After a year or so of that I had enough time to be competitive at the regionals and then went from there. This was many years ago but I don’t think much has changed judging from the responses on this thread.

[-]

Dependent-Place-4795@reddit

Lack of aviation job experience is a bigger problem than 2000 TT. I wouldn’t call that a bunch of time.

[-]

GlasairIII@reddit (OP)

And therein lies the rub.. how does one get the experience needed to get the entry level jobs?

[-]

clearingmyprop@reddit

Purely luck. I’ve started to believe everything in this industry is luck related haha

[-]

ATACB@reddit

This is and networking

[-]

FlowerGeneral2576@reddit

Connections

[-]

NevadaCFI@reddit

I am in the same position but not actively looking. 2,000 hours, half of it in my own plane all over the country. It is really about connections and who you know.

[-]

ABlix@reddit

Yes. 1800TT with mostly Mooney time and about 50 multi, no CFI. 135 job SIC in a jet - just took a lot of networking. Try to get introduced to the DOO at various 135s, especially if you live in an area that has a lot of them (if not, consider moving to NYC, SoCal or Southern Florida). When you meet them, bring them a folder with your pilot license copies, passport, medical, and resume. Ask if you can keep in touch and keep bugging them every month to see the status of their needs. Be persistent, personable, not annoying, and keep in touch and you might just land something.

[-]

twistenstein@reddit

I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

Hiring is tough across the board. I have coworkers who fly as a 2nd job or retirement gig, as well as time builders.

If you don't have an internal reccommendation, you aren't getting interviewed.

[-]

rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I'm wondering if anyone has gotten into flying professionally after flying "for fun" for ~2000 hours over many years? I got all my ratings primarily just for the challenge of learning new things, up through ATP multi and CFI. I've wanted to give the professional pilot life a try for a while now and I've applied to all the typical entry level jobs doing pipeline or survey work or SIC for the questionable "part 134.5" operators and all of them passed on giving me a shot. I've had recruiters tell me straight up they are looking for lower time pilots, presumably because they will stick around. Others said my lack of formal (aviation) employment history is a problem. I do contract work as a type specialist CFI but that's the limit of my professional pilot resume. And of course I don't qualify for any of the more competitive next level jobs. Seems almost like I would have better luck with less time coming off a full time CFI job. I'm kind of stuck in this weird position where I have a bunch of time but no marketable experience and that time seems to be holding me back from getting the entry level jobs I need to start at. Pretty much gave up looking/trying at this point.

Please downvote this comment until it collapses.

Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.