Ex-chief rabbi: If Haredi draft dodgers arrested, ultra-Orthodox will leave Israel
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 263 comments
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
Oh no! whatever will we do without them? Who will take our tax money? WHAT DO WE DO WITH ALL THE TAX MONEY?
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
All Israelis i have seen are cheering for this lmao, I don't blame them. They sound like Jewish salafists.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
The problem is that their ridiculous lifestyle is subsidized by the government and they refuse to serve or contribute to society in any ways besides reading Torah and fucking
knakworst36@reddit
Not occupying a foreign land and committing genocide is something commendable. I understand the frustration with other matters. You can’t expect to be exempt from tax and labour just because of your religion.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
If by “occupying”, you mean living in Israel, I have bad news for you, they live in Israel too
knakworst36@reddit
No I meant by occupying serving in the IDF on the West Bank. The IDF occupied the West Bank.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Not every IDF soldier serves in the West Bank… and 30% of settlers are Haredim
knakworst36@reddit
Thanks for sharing. I didn’t knew 30% lives in settlements. That’s wrong, I still respect not serving in the IDF.
LawsonTse@reddit
They don't serve in the IDF but gladly vote to use it. Why respect people not even willing to die for the jingoism they support?
knakworst36@reddit
You’re right actually.
valentc@reddit
You shouldn't. They're still pretty fucking awful. They fully support the genocide and don't care how many Palestinians get killed. They may not directly kill them, but they aren't against it.
knakworst36@reddit
Oof, I’ll take it back then.
marenicolor@reddit
Please look up how they treat the women in their community. No need to offer respect.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
They don’t serve not for concerns for Palestinians but because they don’t have to for religious reasons
One_Literature9916@reddit
Non native american settlers pushing out native Palestinians https://www.businessinsider.com/60000-american-jews-live-in-west-bank-settlements & https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/jvmYHP043S.
WarmRestart157@reddit
At least they don't partake in genocide and ethnic cleansing like rest of Israelis who all did a stint at IDF.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
anime_titties-ModTeam@reddit
Your submission/comment has been removed as it violates:
Make sure to check our sidebar from time to time as it provides detailed submission guidelines and may change.
Please feel free to send us a modmail if you have any questions or concerns.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
No, they overwhelmingly vote for right wing kahanist parties that actually want that to happen though
BrutalistLandscapes@reddit
The Russian is trying to call you an enabler of genocide.
jaywalkingandfired@reddit
As if one enabler of genocide can't call out another.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Yeah I could tell
WarmRestart157@reddit
Well, you can't have it both ways. I thought Israel is a country for Jews - those who practice Judaism. If it isn't, then what's your excuse for settler colonialism?
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
nobody in the history of judaism practiced judaism like the israeli haredi do. jews had to provide for themselves. the govt sustaining you and your family so you can sit in a room 12 hrs a day and read 800 year old arguments about 1500 year old religious texts is a scenario that has never existed in the history of judaism.
Liberating_theology@reddit
lol gatekeeping Judaism.
You might not like what they do or believe, but that doesn't make them not real Jews. From one fluke of history or another, they're here.
SirStupidity@reddit
It's not gatekeeping Judaism it's gatekeeping being a member of society. Everyone, who can, works and funds himself and his family. In your free time you can practice Judaism as you wish...
georgeb1904@reddit
He’s trying to catch you the in the dumbest gotcha of all time
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
i never said they're not real jews, what are you on about?
Liberating_theology@reddit
You're finding reasons to exclude them, or except them, or at least set them apart, from the broader Jewish community, regardless.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
there is no "broader jewish community". there are many strains of jewry, and this particular one where 40% of men do nothing but study the Torah full time has developed in the terrarium of israel, and is not sustainable in the wild.
if they were living in the US, they wouldn't have the demographic veto they enjoy in israel to force benefits out of the state, and would be forced to assimilate more productive employment into their lifestyle. if they want some of their community to study Torah full time, they would need to sustainably support that internally instead of the govt funding it.
instead of 1 in 3 men studying full time - govt funded and open ended - American orthodox jewry has less than 1 in 7 which are privately funded and temporary.
now what part of this assessment is calling them "not real jews" ?
Liberating_theology@reddit
See, that's a more interesting post than a comment that blatantly tries to set them apart from the rest of Jews to dismiss them wholesale. It also gets to the point of the issue, rather than trying to except them from "Israel is a country for Jews."
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
You're going to have to show me where i did the stuff you're describing there.
Liberating_theology@reddit
https://old.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1krrwil/exchief_rabbi_if_haredi_draft_dodgers_arrested/mtg4gpb/
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
What's your contention with this statement? It's correct.
Govt funding large scale willful unemployment for the purpose of religious studies is simply not a thing that existed.
The relationship between israeli ultra orthodox and the israeli state and the outlook on religious study that evolved from it is unprecedented.
Liberating_theology@reddit
The parent comment to yours,
And your response was basically, "b-b-but they're not like the other Jews!"'
BendicantMias@reddit
I like that metaphor lol! 😅
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
I’d be fine with them if they payed full taxes and actually served.
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
But isn't that important for the demographics?
BendicantMias@reddit
Not if they're a drain on the economy, which they are. It also has a political effect, as their voting bloc increases while more secular blocs decreases.
bureX@reddit
Judging by their beliefs, they’re like a pacifist Taliban.
tkhrnn@reddit
They aren't pacifists.
kepler69@reddit
Exactly, they are very violent in the neighborhoods, don't you dare make a wrong turn with your car there on Saturday...
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Which neighborhood? Hebron? Jerusalem? Most Haredim live in Jewish only areas. The ones in Hebron are not real Haredim, they are religious Zionists
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
What do they do for money. Like how do they have an income if they won’t work like 98% of jobs.
BendicantMias@reddit
Different groups. The settlers are zionists, which is the Jewish version of a nationalist. Haredim stick to their own small communities generally not in the settlements, and some even disavow the state of Israel itself as the messiah hasn't come to establish it yet. All they do is pray all day.
zZCycoZz@reddit
Why are you spreading misinformation?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/black-is-the-new-orange-30-of-settlers-are-now-haredim/
BendicantMias@reddit
Hmm. I had heard that they were a minority. Tho that's a higher percentage than I recall hearing. Okay, I stand corrected. Cheers!
tkhrnn@reddit
Yes. They don't want the brainwashing to get undone, exposure to outsiders is a danger to the brain washing. They actually getting dumbfounded seeing someone drive on Saturday and not being strucked by god.
zZCycoZz@reddit
Not pacifists just cowards
tkhrnn@reddit
They are more like zombies. Getting brainwashed so to be easily controlled by the Rabbis. If the Rabbi order them to murder they will murder.
zZCycoZz@reddit
That makes sense. I assumed them being cowards was the only way to explain them attacking people in the west bank while refusing to serve in the army. I think youre absolutely right though.
georgeb1904@reddit
You are thinking of two different groups of people
zZCycoZz@reddit
https://www.timesofisrael.com/black-is-the-new-orange-30-of-settlers-are-now-haredim/
No im not.
georgeb1904@reddit
They aren’t the ones harassing people in the West Bank, those are different people
BendicantMias@reddit
They mostly aren't in the west bank to begin with. Those are zionists, not the same.
zZCycoZz@reddit
The stats show different.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/black-is-the-new-orange-30-of-settlers-are-now-haredim/
BendicantMias@reddit
Hmm. I had heard that they were a minority. Tho that's a higher percentage than I recall hearing. Ok, I stand corrected. Cheers!
zZCycoZz@reddit
All good my friend, have a nice day
AniTaneen@reddit
It’s worth mentioning that for the Hasidic subsection of the Haredi movement, their rabbis are all part of dynastic monarchies. They aren’t like other Jewish groups where the rabbi is anyone who has received the proper education. Hasidic rabbis often will attend and pass the exams of the chief rabbinate in Israel, but for their community to view someone as a leader, it’s because they are either the son or son in law of the leaders.
The rest of the haredi world won’t admit it, but they are all slowly turning into monarchies too. Thanks to the nepotism of chief rabbinate.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
And they have way bigger birthrates than them, it's normal to see a woman with over 10+ children in ultra-orthodox neighborhood.
BendicantMias@reddit
That does actually tell you something, even if unpleasant, about birth rates. Economic incentives for plummeting birth rates around the world have been an abject failure. But guess who DOES keep their birth rates high, even when they're not poor? Ultra orthodox families. Not just Jewish, but of other faiths too. There's insight there, although many will not like what it signals.
2Rich4Youu@reddit
Absolutely true. I know a lot of people will say it's due to people not having enough money but people pumped out kids like no tomorrow when nearly everyone was dirt poor.
The main reason is just straight up that women now have other options instead of getting married of to some man with barely any rights. Nowadays they can actually have careers same as men so their priorities are different.
Does that mean we should roll back womens rights and education to increase the birth rate? Hell no, we just have to find a way to deal with the inevitable lowering of the birth rates because we cant fix it
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
It’s not even that.
Plummeting birth rates is the result of shifting from more collective societies to more individual focused societies.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Yeah because you can’t have individualism and high birth rates.
Having a kid is the opposite of individualism, since you are literally creating a new person and focusing everything on that new human.
You are doing stuff for them, not yourself.
So if your entire belief system, and your entire worldview is to focus on yourself; you aren’t going to have children.
LtOin@reddit
That logic.
phantapuss@reddit
Apologies I'm not sure what you're implying it signals? Obviously if you treat woman like slaves and give them no rights you can make them have as my children as you want.
BendicantMias@reddit
There's a middle ground to be had, we don't need families having 10 kids anyway. And calling anything less than the current state in the west slavery would be a gross exaggeration. It also sees the term itself lose all meaning.
The point is that the propensity to keep trying the incentive approach for the umpteenth time and hoping for a different result is the definition of insanity. We have to accept that this is just NOT primarily an economic issue.
The other popular excuse is the cost of housing. Japan has a DEFLATIONARY housing market. Hasn't helped them. Again, it's just not an economic issue.
jaywalkingandfired@reddit
No, there's no middle ground there.
BendicantMias@reddit
I don't really care either way tbh. If birth rates plummet, so be it. Society will adjust one way or the other. I'm just tired of the left having a hammer and thus treating everything they see as a nail. All I want is for people to ditch this failed idea that it's a problem that can be solved with a bit more money and face up to, to use Al Gore's phrase for the climate crisis, an Inconvenient Truth. That's all. What they do after that I don't care. Just stop trying to deny what is increasingly becoming evident. Then argue it amongst yourselves. Honestly, with no illusions.
phantapuss@reddit
So you don't think that couples in 2025 are slightly limited on having children because they can't afford their own house, are struggling with bills, and have poor work life balance? And you think the solution is to adopt Orthodox religions treatment of woman ? These are genuine questions, I'm trying to accurately understand your points, not put words in your mouth.
Anecdotally I can confirm that in the UK a few of my friends are being held back from having children by the economics of their situation . Also plenty of my friends have had children without enslaving their partners. If women with equal rights want to have less children than ones in borderline slavery who gives a shit? Society will readjust. And to be honest there's too many people on this planet as is. Half the world wide current population would be infinitely more sustainable.
BendicantMias@reddit
Japan. Housing market is deflationary. There are even some homes available for next to nothing. Additionally house prices in other parts of the world are lower if you go away from the major urban centers. Also the poor have far worse issues with housing too.
Pretty much every state with childcare benefits. The Nordics are especially generous. Hungary is practically driving itself into bankruptcy to get people to have more kids.
The Nordics strike again lol. They're not the only ones, but they are well known for it. Very generous maternity and paternity leaves too.
None of this has made much difference. Meanwhile people who don't enjoy any of it still have more kids. People whose life is FAR more of a struggle than your average westerner still have more kids. And people with roughly the same standard of living as you, but who're orthodox religious, still have more kids.
The main effect of any incentive scheme that's ever been tried has been to get a few people who were putting off kids (like your friends) to have them a bit sooner. But that's as far as it goes, their overall effect is limited. People who weren't going to have kids, don't decide to do so. And people don't tend to have more kids either.
An interesting point to ponder might be to ask some of your friends who say they'd like to have children just how many kids they'd like to have. This is just the subset of people who want kids, so it's already skewed. Still, you'll mostly hear 1, 2 or in a few cases 3 kids (unless they're highly religious or something). Now ask your great grandparents how large families used to be in the old days. You'll hear numbers like 5 - 12 or even more. Mine had 10 siblings! Yet almost no one wants such large families anymore even if money was not a factor. And keep in mind that the replacement level birth rate is 2.1, so fewer people choosing to have 1-2 kids is already below replacement. And you can see this in the rich - money isn't a problem there, but they still usually have only small families. And keep in mind the limitation of this survey - it's not counting the childless, so you need to make up for em'.
You're quite optimistic, cos our economy isn't built for it. It can't work with an inverted population pyramid. Why do you think so many policymakers are concerned about it in the first place? You're gonna have to come with some creative ideas on how to rejig society to make this work, not to mention that it would have significant sociological effects too.
And the sustainability argument isn't quite true - while yes our current consumption is unsustainable, that's almost entirely a consumption issue, NOT a population issue. And consumption continues to increase. Most of the population increase we're slated to still have over the course of this century will be of poor people with FAR less of an impact on our sustainability. We'll still be unsustainable, not cos of them but cos of the consumption of the better off. There's a reason sustainability orgs aren't exactly celebrating this shift. The problem has always been the level of consumption, not the number of people. If the economy is actually shifted to be more sustainable, that won't matter at all.
blues_snoo@reddit
These economic incentives you speak of, are they keeping up with or beating inflation thus making it affordable to have children? In my opinion, the want to NOT have kids is because I don't want to put more cogs into the machine, ensuring that my children have a worse or more difficult life than I did. It's already incredibly difficult to take care of my one child and life gets more expensive as time goes on.
Freud-Network@reddit
Rabbits in captivity do that because they are insulated from predation.
LtOin@reddit
So their stance is "We don't mind Palestinians being genocided, we just don't want to do it ourselves"?
zevonyumaxray@reddit
Pacifist in that they won't sign up for the Israeli Army. Otherwise, they are the ones stirring up s**t in the West Bank even when things were somewhat peaceful. They want others to do the fighting for them.
TheJewPear@reddit
Not the same crazies. The ultra orthodox largely stick to their own neighborhoods in cities, there are very few of them, if at all, in the West Bank. They refuse military service, brainwash their kids from a young age, focus on studying the Bible, their women are basically slaves, and family violence and rape stay inside the community. So pretty much the standard religious nut job cult. Some of them even oppose the idea of the state of Israel, because in their mind it’s a man-made state instead of god-given, and the legitimate Israel will only be when the messiah returns. For that reason a lot of them live outside of Israel - NY, London, Antwerp I think are popular places where you’ll find their communities.
The ones in the West Bank are different, they’re Israeli nationalists first and religious nuts second, they do join the military and are generally much more violent group of people.
berbal2@reddit
Modi'in Illit is literally one of the biggest settlements in the West Bank (46,000 people in 2009, classified as a city) and is an ultra orthodox community.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ultra-orthodox-settlements-in-the-west-bank
zevonyumaxray@reddit
Thanks for the info.
Catholic-Kevin@reddit
*Chickenhawk Taliban
Paradoxjjw@reddit
They are pacifist insofar as they won't risk their own hides in a war. They will gladly vote in droves for jingoistic parties.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
I'm not cheering for them to leave so much as mocking the empty threat. No govt in the world will enable the israeli haredi lifestyle.
No_Locksmith_8105@reddit
NY state is enabling it
lightmaker918@reddit
They work and don't get pensions there. If the US had a war time draft they'd also get drafted I assume.
BendicantMias@reddit
Conscientious Objectors are a thing. They can claim that.
lightmaker918@reddit
Try being a conscientious objector when you're country is scraping the barrel in man power and under an existential threat.
BendicantMias@reddit
You said "If the US had a war time draft" - the US has no shortage of manpower.
lightmaker918@reddit
Yes I meant things got worse then it ever got for the US since 1900.
No_Locksmith_8105@reddit
I don’t know if and how they will dodge the draft (never heard of a hasidic Vietnam vet but maybe I am wrong), but for sure they are making good use of the NY welfare, I don’t blame them - if someone gives me free gifts why not take it? They do work more than they do in Israel since NY might be very liberal in welfare but not as liberal as Israel.
gaymerWizard@reddit
Do they? I was to understand they dont get a cent from the government to study the Torah ?
sulaymanf@reddit
They don’t pay taxes as the man of the house is classifed as clergy.
gaymerWizard@reddit
Isnt that boon is only Rabbis ? like priest and shikh? and if he dont pay taxes doenst that mean he still works.
that is not the same thing happens here. where they dont work and live on government small salary
sulaymanf@reddit
In New York, every male head of household in that community declares themselves a rabbi and thus are exempt from taxes.
gaymerWizard@reddit
I find it very unlikely. I tried to ask CHATGPT and it didnt get me exact number but it did say :"In summary, just declaring oneself a rabbi or religious leader does not automatically grant tax exemptions. The key factors are being part of an organized, recognized religious institution and fulfilling the duties of a religious leader."
valentc@reddit
You tried to ask AI? Jfc, just do your own research. Thats a such a simple thing just just look on an Israel government site. Yet you decided "AI is better than my own brain, I better shut that off, and when AI cant give me the answer, well, I ran out of options.
Chat GPT isn't just automatic google, and isnt a replacement for your own brain and research.
Good god, the world is so fucked the way kids use AI these days.
gaymerWizard@reddit
I did tried to ask google first but didn't got a clear answer about numbers so I went to Chat GPT.
CHAT GPT is awesome I don't know what you are on about.
sulaymanf@reddit
If you think chatGPT (a language engine to mimic conversations) is knowledgeable on this topic then G-d help you.
Derfel1995@reddit
And this is not the first time they said this
BrutalistLandscapes@reddit
Do you condemn Hamas?
Kahzootoh@reddit
Without them, Israel loses what little demographic security it has. We’re talking about a country that is obsessed with maintaining a Jewish majority.
The Haredi are more than 13% of Israel’s population, which is a big deal when Israel is so concerned about Jewish voters making up an absolute majority of Israel at all levels.
Without the Haredi, the non-Jewish share of the vote increases to approximately 25% of Israel’s electorate; and Israel’s political tradition of not including Arab parties in the government coalition government means that the remaining 75% of Jewish political parties would have to form even more broad coalitions- which leads to political dysfunction in Israel because parties have to make concessions to find partners.
When Jewish communists and Jewish businessmen and Jewish atheists and Jewish fanatics all have to share power in a governing coalition, nobody is going to be happy and nothing is going to get done.
If this isn’t already obvious to every single Israeli, it’ll be a miracle if last another decade without destroying themselves by forgetting to breathe at the rate they’re getting stupider.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
arab parties were in the coalition govt in 2021. tradition my ass.
even if you could find a state that would accept 1.3 million of them, no state in the world will enable their lifestyle in the way that israel has been force to, and they know it. Haredim aren't going anywhere, you can relax.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
I don't think you'll have an easy time defending Israel's current government as an example of parliamentary democracy.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
it's a very good example of what happens when one side ideologically collapses and the other has no opposition.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
Pretty much, the conservatives compromised with outright Nazis and gave them unlimited power (rather than forms a coalition with liberals).
montanunion@reddit
I love all the people in this thread who obviously don’t know anything about Israeli politics going all like “but but but Israel is obsessed with Jewish majority!!! [that’s why you see so many people with Israel flairs bring this up /s] Otherwise they will need COALITIONS, a truly unprecedented thing in Israeli politics that nobody can even dream of.”
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
I think you'll have a difficult time defending the current Israeli coalition government, tho.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Dude, what do they do for money. Like where do they work?
Are they like the Amish where they just farm and build houses like it’s 1840?
Heebmeister@reddit
They live off the government completely, they don't work. All they do is study the torah and pump out kids. They are not like the Amish at all, who are very independent and hardworking.
montanunion@reddit
> We’re talking about a country that is obsessed with maintaining a Jewish majority.
I love how everyone here who makes this argument claims that Israel is obsessed with this, meanwhile all the Jewish/Israeli users don’t have this problem. You don’t need to strawman this.
> and Israel’s political tradition of not including Arab parties in the government coalition government
Arab Israeli parties have already been in the coalition. Country is still standing.
> When Jewish communists and Jewish businessmen and Jewish atheists and Jewish fanatics all have to share power in a governing coalition, nobody is going to be happy and nothing is going to get done.
Again, this is already happening. Israel is a tiny country with deep divisions, in the current government you have Bibi - a completely secular man of Ashkenazi descent - leading a coalition that includes, among others, Shas, an ultra orthodox Sephardic party
But I love all this condescension when you obviously have no idea what is going on in Israel politically.
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
I see your US flair. I kindly ask you to move to MENA, Russia or China.
Thank you,
Concerned Citizen
jaywalkingandfired@reddit
What do you mean? They're hard at work, busy remaking US in the Russian image currently. No need to move.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Parties in Israel, like in most democraties, already have to make alliance and concessions, including with Arab parties
It s not a two-parties-that-are-actually-the-same country like the US, or in a lesser extent, the UK
TurkicWarrior@reddit
It will actually be bad for Israel because Haredi population in Israel are significant, there is 1.4 million in Israel. Without Haredi, the Jewish population in Israel would be 60-65%. Plus Jerusalem would as a whole would be Arab majority. Without Haredi population, the fertility rate would be much lower than the Arabs. So since Zionism is obsessed and idologue on keeping the jewish majority, then your Haredi population is your lifeline.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
out of curiosity, where do you see them going?
TurkicWarrior@reddit
I’m going to guess America, UK, Canada, Argentina or Belgium.
Derfel1995@reddit
Were they won't get generous subsidies for just studying the Torah, won't get subsidized housing etc
Warm-Interaction2534@reddit
haha all that industry in Kiryas Joel, NY.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Buddy I hate to tell you, but we give massive handouts to ultra-orthodox freeloaders here too.
EvidenceBasedSwamp@reddit
they get plenty of subsidies in new york...
Level_Hour6480@reddit
Yeah, the Orthodox here basically have the state and city government by the balls.
Freud-Network@reddit
US would take them and probably give automatic citizenship. AIPAC would just have to call a few people on Epstein's little blackmail book.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
Pretending they could do thay for a second, Why would they?
Freud-Network@reddit
The same reason they're doing it for white South Africans.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
Come now don't be a wuss, walk me through it.
What is american's jewry's motivation that they would force the US to absorb 1.4 million jews that will be a burden on their own jewish communities?
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Problem is that haredi are a dead weight for the country. Like they produces nothing, no soldiers, no workers, no teachers, nothing
Israel would see a boost to its economy and services if they left
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Taking out a large number of consumers doesn't tend to improve an economy.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
It does when those fuckers are direcly funded by your wallet
Like, yes, they consume, but all that money is originaly from normal israeli people. So if haradi left, this money would be spent by the other Israeli people.
I.e other Israeli would just consum more since they would have more money
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Direct movement of tax money back into the economy from the bottom up, how could that ever be good, right?
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I dont think anything can be worse for an economy than a litteral money sink , especially in a global economy where you can export your surplus
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Yep, economists are all wrong. You're totally correct.
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
Having a large unproductive parasitic underclass is actually good for a national economy? Then why don't every country strive to have the same?
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
You mean how nobody strives for 0% employment because that's actually bad for economies?
Molested-Cholo-5305@reddit
I know education in Australia can be lacking, but come on mate
anime_titties-ModTeam@reddit
Your submission/comment has been removed as it violates:
Make sure to check our sidebar from time to time as it provides detailed submission guidelines and may change.
Please feel free to send us a modmail if you have any questions or concerns.
jaywalkingandfired@reddit
Okay, matey. You had your fun with hypotheticals, now let's return to the matter at hand. Please show me an economist arguing that 14,5 % permanent unemployment is great, actually (assuming total Israel pop is 9,7 mil and haredis are 1,4 mil). Or 14% of the whole population being unproductive for their whole life.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Again, point to me where I said anything was great.
My initial point still stands.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
You strive for the closest to 0% you can get without risking lack of workers
Or else why dont country strive for 70% unemployment
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Hyperbole doesn't prove your point. At no point have I said anywhere near the majority is ideal.
This is getting hilarious.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
It s getting hilarous cause you got zero arguments or sources yet still think you are right
If unemployment is at zero, it means workers are missing. But the more unemployed you have the more it a strain on the state
But most unemployed are looking for work or getting new skills to change job. With haredi it s not the case.
You are missing a fundamental point
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
If you are right, it would mean no matter the number of 0 production citizen, the country can fonction in the long run, right ?
Just give me an economist that supports this idea lol
Just give me a source, but I dont think you ll find any
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Yeah I definitely said that. That's 100% exactly what I said, you nailed it directly and didn't make up shit I didn't say at all.
iwantsomeofthis@reddit
you are very stupid, fyi.
at no point have you made a single salient point. stop typing.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Well then give a source or argument for what you think you said
Shouldnt be difficult right ?
ByGollie@reddit
and Americans
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Ironically, those loving in America have to work jobs
ByGollie@reddit
If you count the actual inhabitants of all the land that Israel claims and occupies - then the culturally Jewish population is just under 50% - the rest are Muslim, Christian and Druze.
So in Israel, Jews are likely plurality, but not a majority (although they're very close to being so and likely will be soon if the death toll continues to rise in Gaza)
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
Honestly, they won't ALL leave. And the haredi are the most radical on excluding the Arabs and Muslims.
Also, don't worry for Jerusalem. If the haredi leave, the settlers in Cisjordania can be repatriated to Israel proper. Why would they need to exile themselves and take over other people home when there are empty houses all over Israel.
The haredi are able to have so many kids because they are heavily subsidized by the government. They are basically paid to breed. No military service, tax breaks, fiscal gifts, etc... If that money is redistributed to the broader population, they will be able to have more kids.
Plus, imagine all the family houses and spots in kindergarten newly available. Three of the main reasons why people don't have kids would be solved (not enough money to raise them, not enough room, all the schools and kindergarten nearby are overcrowded)
BendicantMias@reddit
I highly doubt this. Economic incentives have been used to raise the birth rate all over the world, and have been an abject failure. I don't think the Haredi have large families cos they're subsidized, rather it's cos they're ultra orthodox itself. Ultra orthodox families all over the world, of pretty much any faith, tend to have more children - whether they're coddled like the Haredi or not.
Why? Well the other group that has more kids are people in poor countries. There's at least one common factor between ultra orthodox families of most religions, even when not poor, and poor communities - the status of women...
Freud-Network@reddit
That's a lot of dead weight, draining resources, and producing nothing. I can't imagine the rest of the country is averse to the idea of them leaving.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
I never understood what they do for money. Like they don’t use the internet or anything secular so they can’t work most jobs.
djabor@reddit
exactly, these people are part of the reason israeli politics have gotten entrenched.
SpinningHead@reddit
I imagine that, without them, you will continue your gleeful genocide.
fcukou@reddit
YOUR tax money? 🧐
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
Damn straight.
fcukou@reddit
You aren't owed American tax money.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
that's great but nobody asked
fcukou@reddit
You ask, every year.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
if i ask then obviously i'm not owed, as i wouldn't be asking. making your original comment twice as stupid.
fcukou@reddit
You all certainly act like you are owed it, given how much you interfere in our politics.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
yup. i'm interfering in your politics right now and loving it!
(you can't see it but this message contains subliminally implanted instructions. you'll know what for when it's already too late)
LovesFrenchLove_More@reddit
Where would they leave to though I wonder?
smegabass@reddit
That sounds like a win for Israel, win for Palestinians, win for the region, win for the world.
This guy might have solved the middle eastern issue. He is a walking talking living peace plan.
If he goes through with it, he should get the noble prize for this.
TurkicWarrior@reddit
It will actually be bad for Israel because Haredi population in Israel are significant, there is 1.4 million in Israel. Without Haredi, the Jewish population in Israel would be 60-65%. Plus Jerusalem would as a whole would be Arab majority. Without Haredi population, the fertility rate would be much lower than the Arabs. So since Zionism is obsessed and idologue on keeping the jewish majority, then your Haredi population is your lifeline.
lightmaker918@reddit
Fertility rate of non orthodox Jews is the same as Israeli Arabs nowdays. Israel has established borders unless the crazies start annexing, so I doubt it would be a problem.
cesaroncalves@reddit
But the crazies ARE annexing, Israel never stop stealing land, it's pretty much the entire history of the state, that and the war crimes.
lightmaker918@reddit
They "annexed" empty land in area C, they didn't annex any zone containing major Palestinian populations. If they do that's a different conversation and is probably Apartheid without equal rights.
cesaroncalves@reddit
That's is false, https://www.972mag.com/palestinian-village-destroyed-by-noon/ .
lightmaker918@reddit
Masafer Yatta in general is part of the aforementioned zone C. Espcially those settlements were built without approval, are not connected to any infrastructure, and have a demolition order against them for 2 decades.
Whatever you feel about it, it's not related to my above claim. As far as I know no part of the WB has been officially annexed to date.
cesaroncalves@reddit
You can paint it pink all you want, bloods stains are hard to wash out.
lightmaker918@reddit
Blood? No one was killed. Anyone can build a settlement with putting a few caravans and water resovoirs in any open plot of land in your country?
cesaroncalves@reddit
This time, and we don't know if there were injured.
So is it your country or not? You said a couple of comments back it was not anexed.
It's their land, they decide, you're the invaders. Are you so deep in being an horrible human being that you don't see the suffering you're causing Palestinians?
And you even used the Hasbara talking point "built without approval", as if Israel would ever approve anything from the Palestinians in the land they want to take, we know you only approve the illegal settlements.
lightmaker918@reddit
Firstly it was no annexed, do you know what the word annexation means? Secondly, I said zone A and B population centers areas aren't settled, and this area is in area C.
cesaroncalves@reddit
Not according to the Oslo accords, you broke those multiple times over many years, only kept the parts that interested you.
And you claim you offered a state? An inviable state of various land lock Palestinian villages like a land archipelago. Your PM not writing anything so you could break it latter. You even mentioned the Oslo accords, Palestinians kept their end, you didn't. You also tried for new borders that did not respect international law. What a fucking joke, you actually think I'm not informed about your fake attempts at saving face?
Your mask is off Zionist. You can stop pretending now, I wont respond anymore to you, you're an horrible human being and I want nothing more to do with you.
lightmaker918@reddit
The peace plan offered this - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/final-status-map-presented-by-israel-at-taba-january-2001
If you need help reading maps, both orange and light orange would be Palestinian.
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
The orthodox Jews are basically exempted from any obligations toward the state (tax breaks, fiscal gifts, free childcare, no military service) and are basically paid to have kids. They don't participate much to the nation's interest, outside of voting for far-right strongmen and sending other people kids to die in their ideological wars.
If they leave, spread the money around to people who need it. A lot of couples who want to have kids wait for years "until the situation is right" and have only one or two (or sometimes none) because kids can be a big money investment.
But if they know that they can get help, like a shared 1000 days paid maternity/paternity leave, advantageous or free healthcare for the mother and the child,a gift basket for first-time parents with 6 months of childcare products, I can assure you most people will start having kids, and the fertility will get raised for the country as a whole
BendicantMias@reddit
That hasn't worked even in the Nordic nations. Hungary has even bankrupted itself trying it. Economic incentives have been an abject failure. You're gonna need some new ideas instead of living out the classic definition of insanity. Throwing more money at the problem isn't gonna fix anyone's birth rate woes.
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Israeli culture is very different to Nordic. People in Israel still want kids.
Israel's economy is a million times better than hungarys
BendicantMias@reddit
You...literally just admitted this is a cultural issue, not an economic one. And yet you insist on the same old economic solution that's failed everywhere? Israels' birth rate is also falling btw, especially among secular Jews. They're just better than most at present, and the average is boosted by the ultra orthodox. But guess what? This isn't just an Israeli phenomenon, or a Jewish one - you'll see the same pattern among ultra orthodox families all over the world, of virtually every faith, even without generous state handouts.
And, of course, in the poor. There's at least one thing the highly religious (of most faiths) and the poor tend to have in common, and it certainly isn't an easy life. Take a guess what that is...
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Mistreatment of women? A ton of time on their hands? Lack of sexual education? A culture of mysoginy?
BendicantMias@reddit
Scratch that second one. The poor don't have tons of time, they have to make ends meet. As for the rest, well there's an insight, even if your way of describing it makes your distaste clear. Meshes with history too.
What to do with that insight? That's up to you. But at least stop endlessly pretending this is an economic issue. It isn't, and never was. It won't be solved with money. Even the other popular explanation - housing costs - doesn't work. Japan has a DEFLATIONARY housing market. Hasn't helped them. Meanwhile the lowest birth rate in the world is in SK, which has the sharpest and most hostile gender divide in the world as well.
As Al Gore put it for the climate crisis, we have to face an Inconvenient Truth.
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Not in Europe or Israel. Many poor people live off of benefits and don't work full time.
It can't, not in Europe. In Israel it definitely would help.
I'm not left
TurkicWarrior@reddit
I’m not convinced. The fertility rate of Arabs within Israel is lower but is close enough with Jews TFR even taking account with Haredi.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Non Haredi Jewish women and Arab women have about the same birth rates. Plus, I know people who would move to Jerusalem in a heartbeat with all those extra empty houses available to purchase. You don’t know what you are talking about
Even with Haredim out of Jerusalem, Jews would have a slight majority over Arabs
MightObvious@reddit
Imho birthrate are more tied to societal norms and pressures, too much work and not enough money leads to no space or free time = less babies.
What's with the discussion of birth rates of different cultures here? is there some sort of history of infertility or something? Cause it seems to me like a very weird point to try to raise.
VladimirBarakriss@reddit
In the case of Israel, the government has always tried to boost birth rates among Jews, because if they don't the Arabs will eventually be the majority because they have higher base birth rates.
To be clear I think this whole topic is kinda icky, I'm just trying to explain the reasoning
troodon5@reddit
In a settler-colonial state, keeping the settlers in control is intrinsically linked to demographics and fertility rate. If you listen to interviews from Afrikaners or white Rhodesians, they say the same thing.
I can’t link the documentary bc my link goes to twitter but if you look up “Concerning Violence” and go to the 11th minute mark, you can see an interview with a Rhodesian and he parrots similar talking parts.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
I mean you can see this and I literally don’t mind if every Haredi jew went to New York
troodon5@reddit
I mean, Netanyahu is in a coalition government with their 2 main political parties. You may not care, but their population numbers mean that they can’t be ignored in the Israeli political system.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Yes, and without the Haredim, right wing Religious Zionist parties wouldn’t have nearly the same amount of power they do now
BatHickey@reddit
Omg please no, they need a state somewhere in the middle of the USA away from people.
ATNinja@reddit
Societal norms and cultures... sounds connected.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
The comment you submitted includes a link to a social media platform run by fascist/authoritarian oligarchs and has been removed. Consider re-commenting with a link using alternative privacy-friendly frontends: https://hackmd.io/MCpUlTbLThyF6cw_fywT_g?view
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Haredim don’t have to work usually, so they just have babies. That’s why it’s brought up
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
They are also less likely to have dual citizenship. So they won’t move to France or US or whatever.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Problem is that haredi are a dead weight for the country. Like they produces nothing, no soldiers, no workers, no teachers, nothing
Israel would see a boost to its economy and services if they left
ribald_jester@reddit
I just can't imagine where they think they'd go? It's got to be an empty threat right? I mean they are literally a millstone around the neck of any community they join. Virulently tribal, closed off, abusive, and they contribute nothing to society except more illiterate thugs. It's a self perpetuating crime syndicate. In the US for example, they constantly try to game the system, they abuse the democratic process (taking over local government, school boards) in order to redirect property taxes to pay for their stupid schools (where, they only teach in Hebrew of course). They vote for whoever their rabbi tells them - so much so that the Gov of NY typically has to kowtow to their voting bloc..its revolting..
wq1119@reddit
Realistically speaking, they'd likely just go to New York where Ultra-Orthodox communities are already prevalent and well-established, although a Haredi Exodus to Germany would also be a very interesting scenario.
smegabass@reddit
Florida.
amendment64@reddit
Uh, Florida is pretty racist to not only people of a different skin color, but also to jews, muslims, and anyone not Christian. These folks would def not be safe in Florida.
Tsofuable@reddit
Germany? They are ferociously pro-Israel.
ijzerwater@reddit
if you want antisemitism to rise, import a million Jews who cannot or will not work.
They have no relevant education or work experience to contribute, so will end up with low level jobs nobody wants to do.
I don't see them adapting to their new country ways of living either.
Warm-Interaction2534@reddit
>so will end up with low level jobs nobody wants to do.
This is not going to happen lol
qjxj@reddit
Orthodox Jews are the single fastest growing group in Israel.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Oh no! I’m so worried for the idiots that think reading Torah will protect our country
Oh well, more money for people that need it.
For reals, maybe the religious extremiststhat have 8 kids and don’t contribute anything to our nation will leave?
Stubbs94@reddit
Are you worried for the idiots who think mass murdering children will protect your country?
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Do you think I like Netanyahu lol?
knakworst36@reddit
Which political party do you support that actually raises there voice for the wellbeing of Palestinians?
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
I used to like Hadash when I was 14 and a socialist
I voted for Meretz in 2022.
Now the best option is probably The Democrats
But no man, I’m a card caring Otzma Yehudit voter, without a doubt
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
You just named five more Israeli parties than the average Israel-discusser can
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Almost like I’m Israeli 🤯
knakworst36@reddit
What have the democrats done to stop the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? I’m genuinely curious, I actually don’t know much about Israeli domestic politics.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
The right has all the power, I don’t know what you want The Democrats to do. Coup the government?
knakworst36@reddit
Making there voice heard internationally. Acknowledging the genocide, and apartheid. I understand that they don’t have the electoral power to influence policy.
FudgeAtron@reddit
Lol it's so obvious you know nothing about Israeli politics. The head of the Democrats was literally talking about how the government has enabled the IDF to kill babies as a hobby.
Fyi Yair Golan is Major-General in the reserves and was military governor of the West Bank in the early '00s. That's the guy that said that yesterday.
MiningSpartan@reddit
This subreddit loves shitting in Israel while barely knowing what goes on inside lol
The Ultra Orthodox leaving would be one of the greatest things to happen for the future of Israel and so many people don’t understand why.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
So you want them to acknowledge a genocide and you expect them to be in power afterwards?
Let me give you a bad comparison. If a Turkish party recognized the Armenian genocide, how well do you think they will do in the next elections?
knakworst36@reddit
What does that say about your country? That it commits a genocide but recognizing it as such ruins your electoral odds.
In the Netherlands most political parties are openly acknowledging our countries role in the Holocaust, and its aftermath. Imagine if a German political party would deny the Holocaust, its politicians might actually end up in prison.
I apreciate your honesty, that acknowledging genocide in Israel is political suicide. Therefore, I am in favor of sanctions against Israel. Eventhough it unfortunately hurts people like you who try to work for peace.
What would you suggest as an Israeli can be done to end the occupation and genocide?
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
For solutions, you guys can try violence or boycott(not that will work) you can try protesting, although that will probably turn diasporic Jews towards the Zionist side
The only people that can do anything are Israelis and palestinians(both continently protesting en masse to end the war)
LeveCadeirada@reddit
I think that person was implying that more tax money is going to fund a war, not exactly going to "people that need it". The finance minister is openly genocidal.
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
And without the Haredim parties, Bezalel Smotrich would not be the finance minister
sheepyowl@reddit
This would be great for our country tbh
lightmaker918@reddit
Most Israel doesn't support Ben Gvir's ideas, nor is Israel engaged with murdering civilians as policy.
jaywalkingandfired@reddit
A policy doesn't have to be put on one convenient and concise paper to be a policy.
lightmaker918@reddit
Please. This policy is in place and we aren't seeing hundreds of thousands of dead? And fighting aged men are over represented in the casualty figures? Sure it's policy if you disregard reality.
zanotam@reddit
"fighting aged men" are overrepresented in the fucking populace of Palestine because you keep killing them before they get old lmao
lightmaker918@reddit
No they're not, they're under 30% in the populace of Gaza.
Decent_Cheesecake_29@reddit
lol, lmao even
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
The comment you submitted includes a link to a social media platform run by fascist/authoritarian oligarchs and has been removed. Consider re-commenting with a link using alternative privacy-friendly frontends: https://hackmd.io/MCpUlTbLThyF6cw_fywT_g?view
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
jaywalkingandfired@reddit
Since when it doesn't? How are those reparations from the Brits for the genocide by starvation are doing, by the way?
invinci@reddit
Also go where?
SongFeisty8759@reddit
...but where would they go? There are countries that already have diaspora of these folks and they do not make a good impression where ever they go.. it would really be stretching it to claim political refugee status.
MiningSpartan@reddit
Holy shit I wish these fucking rats are a plague to Israel and its image on society (BB still worse)
They leech money from a law that was poorly implemented with no thought when the country was first founded. It’s not sustainable anymore.
Will never happen but if they leave the country will do much better
runsongas@reddit
don't threaten us with a good time. but the real question i think is where will they go if no other country wants to take them in? are they all dual citizens somehow?
VladimirBarakriss@reddit
No they're not, I don't get what this guy's plan is
DaerBear69@reddit
To where?
bureX@reddit
I’m pretty sure there’s not a nation on this earth which wants to become a home for any of these individuals.
So, errr, good luck with that.
fartingbeagle@reddit
Unfortunately, both Germany and Spain have the 'right to return ' for Jews. Once they're in the EU, they choose any European country to live in.
someonefighter@reddit
Not really. It's only for German and Spanish Jews respectively.
someonefighter@reddit
Is it just me or did he just say it's unfortunate that people can go back to where they lived and were cleansed from?
ijzerwater@reddit
but if they get here, they have to work for their money, which will probably the lowest jobs available since they got no skills and no education and don't speak the language
discographyA@reddit
Correct. Orthodox are as bat shit crazy as any Islamic jihadist.
Fluffy-Hovercraft-53@reddit
Not exactly comparable.
Judaism does not proselytize - Haredim do not force their madness on anyone else.
takecare60@reddit
That's because they think they and only them are God's chosen people. It's the ultimate form of nationalism
Fluffy-Hovercraft-53@reddit
Chosen for extra chores, not for extra ice-cream!
discographyA@reddit
Let me know when you’re a woman and just want to take your seat on a plane in peace.
fornefariouspurposes@reddit
Not quite true. In the neighborhoods where they are the majority here in the NY/NJ area, they try to force other people to go along with their religious-inspired sexist nonsense.
lightmaker918@reddit
They're not violent, just a cult.
ScrofessorLongHair@reddit
That's bullshit
They're violent in the US too
It's pretty easy to find videos of people being attacked by ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel.
Fluffy-Hovercraft-53@reddit
Reminds me of the Palestinians.
Ancher123@reddit
Reminds me of 109 countries
HandicapperGeneral@reddit
You mean there will no longer be areas of the country I can't enter without being assaulted by filthy, uneducated, welfare-abusing, radical fundamentalists? Oh no! Whatever will I do without being harassed on the street because my friend's skirt was too short?
LeveCadeirada@reddit
Am I crazy or did this man threatened to stop sending "thoughts and prayers"?
adminofreditt@reddit
That's what they do. One of their most commonly made arguments is that they help by praying, so they actually serve in their own way
LeveCadeirada@reddit
Would you happen to know if they tried to come up with an excuse for the October 2024 attack happening anyway?
PestilentOnion2@reddit
What’s the IDF’s excuse?
adminofreditt@reddit
I'm not sure, but now I know what to ask next time
DonutUpset5717@reddit
It would have been worse would be their answer
Derfel1995@reddit
Yup
gaymerWizard@reddit
Dont threat me with good times
The_Jenini@reddit
Isn’t this the same rabbi that called black people “monkeys”?Source
Imaginary-Chain5714@reddit
Yeah he also said goys should serve Jews, not a nice guy
AutoModerator@reddit
The link you have provided contains keywords for topics associated with an active conflict, and has automatically been flaired accordingly. If the flair was not updated, the link submitter MUST do so. Due to submissions regarding active conflicts generating more contrasting discussion, comments will only be available to users who have set a subreddit user flair, and must strictly comply with subreddit rules. Posters who change the assigned post flair without permission will be temporarily banned. Commenters who violate Reddiquette and civility rules will be summarily banned.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.