Client suspended IT services
Posted by cantITright@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 489 comments
I managed a small business IT needs. The previous owners did not know how to use the PC at all.
I charged a monthly fee to maintain everything the business needed for IT domain, emails, licenses, backups, and mainly technical assistance. The value I brought to the business was more than anything being able to assist immediately to any minor issue they would have that prevented them from doing anything in quickbooks, online, email or what not.
The company owners changed. The new owner sent me an email to suspend all services, complained about my rate and threatened legal action? lol
I don't think the owner understands what that implies (loosing email access, loosing domain, and documents from the backups). This is the first client nasty interaction I've had with a client. Can anyone advice what would be the best move in this situation? Or what have you done in the past with similar experiences?
TheKuMan717@reddit
Losing, not loosing.
deny_by_default@reddit
Thank you!!!
ledow@reddit
"EDIT: No contract"
Just walk. You don't need or want "customers" like that.
cantITright@reddit (OP)
No intentions to keep working for this new individual. Licenses off, domain released, data erased. I'll def give an update back in a few weeks.
Jackod20@reddit
RemindMe! 15 days
ItJustBorks@reddit
!remindme 2 months
TinfoilCamera@reddit
No - you won't - because if you really did nuke everything you'll either be sitting in a jail cell somewhere trying to make bail, or, your attorney will tell you to power-delete this thread and to stop talking about it publicly.
chipredacted@reddit
Bro what? No fucking wonder they’re threatening legal action, you just torched a businesses access to their own shit.
There isn’t room to be petty with people who have lawyers. Unless you have better lawyers. Which due to the lack of contract I’m guessing you do not.
rileyg98@reddit
If it's on OPs servers without a contract it's his data anyway, so... Anyway they didn't want to pay for the hosting, so what did they expect? Why would OP continue to pay for data hosting
BemusedBengal@reddit
Do you think banks own the money customers deposit because it's in their vaults?
Banluil@reddit
Yeah, if you were paying for the licenses and the domain, then sure, turning them off is fine.
Erasing data?
Nah, you just got yourself into a world of hurt.
They can easily sue you for destruction of their business property, since the data belonged to them and not too you.
Especially if there is anything related to their IP in there.
Good luck man. There are so many better ways you could have went about this.
A lawyer is going to take one look at what you did and shake his head.
ajscott@reddit
It wasn't a service it was a pre-paid purchase. The lawyer is going to hold him liable for actively cancelling the domains instead of letting them expire on their own.
BemusedBengal@reddit
Especially because domains have a 30(?) day redemption period where it's disabled but recoverable with payment. OP subverted the built-in scream test, which is unambiguously malicious.
sffunfun@reddit
Dude. The feds / FBI can come after you for industrial sabotage, and they have in the past.
Balthxzar@reddit
OP are you 17-21 years old?
Data erased? Are you fucking kidding? Grow up.
hbdgas@reddit
Plot twist: there are no new owners. OP was phished into deleting a business.
cantITright@reddit (OP)
This got me laughing lmao
ClothesAway9142@reddit
we are laughing at you tho.
BlackV@reddit
This the camp I'm sitting in
dispatch00@reddit
Fuck you
BemusedBengal@reddit
I only would have done that as a 17 year old. At 18+ I'd be scared of the legal consequences and at 20+ I'd just know better.
TurtleStepper@reddit
Well, you chose an apt username. Hope you have a backup of that data. 😂 PLEASE keep us updated.
TheRealDaveLister@reddit
Remindme! 14 days
kaziuma@reddit
Data erased? Oh dear, what kind of data? Hosted where?
This goes beyond 'i don't want to work with you anymore' and steps into active destruction, especially without any kind of contract. I hope this doesn't come back to bite you, the owner seems very happy to threaten legal action.
timbotheny26@reddit
OP has said they didn't even have a contract for this whole arrangement.
They need a good lawyer ASAP, because right now it looks like they're screwed.
Frothyleet@reddit
Oh my goodness, I forgot about that guy!
What are the odds they learned a lesson and have pivoted despite the temporary (?) reprieve for Bytedance?
timbotheny26@reddit
Probably zero, I can't imagine someone who would do something like that would also be the type of person to learn from their mistakes.
dracotrapnet@reddit
What I smell is OP was proxy paying the bills for items and charging the customer for the SaaS services. If OP goes hands off, turns off the payment methods the data disappears in a puff of steam at the end of the billing cycle.
kaziuma@reddit
I am reading into the actual wording, for me, it implies direct action was taken to deliberately delete the data, not just allowing something such as onedrive to 'expire'.
I guess we'll see if OP ever posts an update, I won't hold my breath though :)
_My_Angry_Account_@reddit
Suspend all services would include cloud storage accounts. You have a limited window of time to get your data off before it is deleted if you tell them to cancel services.
Same with Azure. Would that be on OP or on Microsoft and the other cloud vendors?
OP did exactly what was ask of him. If you can get sued by your former client for doing what they asked, then what's the point of working?
RangerNS@reddit
Woah. Suspending services may give a 5, 15, 30 day window for someone else to delete data, but OP said they deleted it.
That is an overt act, different from simply stopping to pay the bill.
_My_Angry_Account_@reddit
That really depends on the service.
Not all services have grace periods like that. All the major providers do, but not all the small ones do.
Also, could have been a roll your own scenario where the guy was hosting cloud storage himself on a personally owned NAS. All bets are off with that one since there is no contract for the services he's been providing. Providing storage on your own NAS doesn't necessarily mean that the people paying for that service own the NAS itself or will be guaranteed access to it. Without a contract, how much time should a person in that scenario be required to maintain third party data? There are no laws specifying so there is no lower limit.
This is why I tell people to never threaten legal action against others just to get your way. I work in data recovery, you threaten me or my company with legal action and I can no longer assist you with recovery and can only refer you to speak with our legal department. You'll never get your data back after that and no one except legal is allowed to interact with you after that.
RangerNS@reddit
Fair enough, either way. OP did say "delete" not "disable", and I suppose I don't really GAF enough for them to clarify.
But if you are the refrigeration guy, and someone tells you to turn off the fridge, its obvious shit inside will go bad. Turning the fridge off and walking away is a different thing than taking everything out of the fridge, throwing it in a dumpster, turning the fridge off, and walking away.
agent-bagent@reddit
Jesus H Christ dude. This is why you get away from the keyboard when you're emotionally charged.
awetsasquatch@reddit
This is either a troll post or you're a top tier moron. Ethics aside, it puts you SQUARELY in line for litigation. Ethics in front, it's a shitty thing to do, and you should probably leave the industry.
danstermeister@reddit
"I'M not punching you im just swinging my arms and walking in your direction. "
That's what, "domain released, data erased" means, and it will work out like that.
The best is earlier in this same thread you said you don't think they understand.
So they don't understand but you're going to fuck them anyway because they weren't nice to you?
REALLY?
You better hope they dont understand lawsuits as well as you do.
coukou76@reddit
Don't do that, what the hell. Even if the new owner is the worst sob, you will end up in jail over a shit like this
dontquestionmyaction@reddit
Oh you're about to lose everything. Good that they canceled on you sooner rather than later.
KSauceDesk@reddit
Bruh if you hard deleted any of their data you'll be fucked if they go through with legal action. Domain as well unless it was released due to non-payment
ZAFJB@reddit
That is looking for trouble.
IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit
Now I'm thinking OP didn't get threatened with legal action for no reason. I wonder what other stupid shit they've pulled.
hosalabad@reddit
Man, I'd have parked that data for a bit. I feel like you may have introduced some liability here.
ChampOfTheUniverse@reddit
Are you smoking crack? You've just opened yourself up to real litigation. RIP.
BemusedBengal@reddit
Did they threaten legal action before or after you nuked the infrastructure?
IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit
I read this whole exchange as "they threatened legal for no reason... so I gave them a reason. Will update in a few weeks! ✌️😘"
Vast-Setting4400@reddit
RemindMe! 7 days
Computermaster@reddit
!remindme 2 months
Le_Vagabond@reddit
RemindMe! 15 days
:popcorn:
isbBBQ@reddit
What the fuck? Why did you erase the data?
Have fun with the legal issues after that one, why didnt you just hand it over?
Ummgh23@reddit
Oh boy looking forward to that update
Sufficient_Market226@reddit
Oh boy....
That doesn't seem like it's going to end well for you😳
I mean they threatened legal action just for the heck of it, and you just have them an actual valid reason to do it, what do you think is going to happen?
maytrix007@reddit
Please report back on what happens. I don’t see this going well for you. Knowingly destroying data that is not yours is likely going to get you into legal trouble.
killjoygrr@reddit
jfgechols@reddit
really looking forward to that update.
shwell44@reddit
Negotiate, just drop a little on the rate then up it when you can.
ratshack@reddit
“Data erased”?!
wtf?
I hope it is recoverable because that is a huge liability for you.
sof_1062@reddit
Yeah op do not delete anything. You will get prosecuted. Look up a Michael Tyler that works for a msp in Arizona who did that and went to prison for a year lost his msp and somehow another hired him.
ThatLocalPondGuy@reddit
Without a contract, OP could face criminal charges if they disrupt business or delete backup data.
dean771@reddit
Do what they ask, hand over credentials to their stuff
Should be taking on clients without an offboarding process
_My_Angry_Account_@reddit
They didn't ask for a hand over.
They asked for all the services to be stopped immediately. That would include stopping all cloud services for the company.
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
That's a disingenuous interpretation, and you know it. So does /u/cantITright .
Nobody buys a company and tells the IT guy "blow it up". The new owner almost certainly told him to stop billable services, and hand over the keys so the new owner can choose their own service provider, or self-manage.
OP's description sounds self-serving and self-important. They likely left out some important details from the new owner's perspective. IT for a 10 person company is not rocket science. If the new owner has any technical expertise, they can probably handle it without OP.
cantITright@reddit (OP)
Go touch some grass not everything is a grand master plan.
It's the new owner wanting to cut expenses. There are no keys to hand on. Just like an MSP the accounts don't live in an individual tenant but in a shared tenant for an easier administration.
If you're told you're not getting paid anymore and to stop all services what would you do? Go over every detail after a guy threatened legal action without specifying what for?
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
Do you really think that's how professionals do things? Just dump all their clients' property into shared accounts? Each customer's services should absolutely be their own tenants or management accounts.
You should absolutely have keys to hand over.
The client has a right to demand their property and access. If you have to disentangle this mess to make the client whole, I feel like that's on you for mismanaging it.
cantITright@reddit (OP)
I don't think you have any idea how freelancers work.
No one has demanded for anything where are you getting these ideas from? Did you even read the original post or you're just ranting because you can't handle the Internet?
agentredfishbluefish@reddit
I worked for an MSP for 11 years, and now I consult for them. If you walked in asking me for advice, I'd tell you to call a lawyer. You NEVER combine customer accounts into one tenant, and you NEVER delete their data.
maytrix007@reddit
I think we’re learning how unqualified freelancers work. You shouldn’t be freelancing. All customers should have their own tenants - end of story. If you were fully managing you should have billed them for the services/licenses and explained that the billing would need to be transitioned to them.
Their being a complete idiot and jerk doesn’t give you the rights to delete everything.
Please do follow up on this though. I am certain it’s not going to go well.
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
I am a freelancer. I have been in the situation where a new owner came in and asked me to stop work so they could take it over. Since I maintain separate tentants for all customers, it took 30 minutes to hand over the keys.
"Here's the password manager. Here's the documentation. It's been nice working here. My off-contract rate is $x. Please give me a call if you need anything more."
cantITright@reddit (OP)
"Stop all services. Any failure to do so will result in legal action taken against you. You will not receive compensation for the money that is owed to you"
flunky_the_magestic: "Yes sir, thank you. Here is the off boarding plan. I know you threatened legal action and have no interest on hearing anything from me anymore. Here is an explanation on everything that will do down on detail, let me aid you on preventing this"
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
Pretty much. If the customer says stop working, I stop working. I'm smart enough to know the new owner doesn't intend for the SYSTEMS to stop working.
If they owe me money, I'll have that as a separate discussion. Because I'm a professional and I don't hold customer systems hostage. I understand that my recourse is in small claims court, not on the customer's network.
adanufgail@reddit
So you got that reply and decided to lie about what OP actually did on your own post?
adanufgail@reddit
I'd love to see them try to explain that in court
llDemonll@reddit
Yea. There’s no contract, no paper trail of money owed. Client doesn’t owe them money.
adanufgail@reddit
If they paid the same amount every month (or had at some point), that amount can be assumed to be the agreed rate. There's no written contact, but there is a paper trail unless they paid in cash. But the new owner acknowledged they owed money, so good luck trying to pretend otherwise in court.
I suggest you don't run your own business
mnvoronin@reddit
But there is an email confirming that the client owes them money and refuses to pay them. In writing.
r6throwaway@reddit
A verbal agreement will still hold up in court. You have to be an idiot to think otherwise
OCAU07@reddit
Yes, that's how it should have been handled. You have then covered your ass if\when they business decides not to pay or says to shut it down.
*To Whom it may Concern,
Based on your request to terminate service I wish to raise your attention to the impact of the request.
Should I cease all services immediately it with impact access to and data for the below:
List services
At your request, in 10 business days these services will be terminated. Due to the short time frame, I am available to provide information to your preferred I.T support and my rate is $xxx per hour for assistance.
Thank you*
adanufgail@reddit
No, you didn't
r6throwaway@reddit
You're an absolute fucking moron and I hope this company sues your ass into the ground
unichode@reddit
Your post says "I don't think the owner understands what that implies (loosing email access, loosing domain, and documents from the backups)." That implies you know he wants to keep his services and data. It belongs to the business.
Cream_Of_Drake@reddit
NOTE: Felony charge was for computer misuse equivalent in the US, i.e. access to a computer system without authorisation. If there was a switch-off built into the code it wouldn't have ran afoul of this, and not massively relevant or close to OPs situation
Guy who deleted M365 data wanted to blackmail/hold his client by the balls so they couldn't migrate away, based on what I'm reading. But is very relevant to OPs situation as what OP is doing/planning on doing could run afoul of this.
goingslowfast@reddit
Have you ever worked at an MSP? MSPs specifically structure things to ensure a clean, easy separation when contracts end.
Anyone selling services / software to MSP know they need to offer multi-tenancy support.
El_Dud3r1n0@reddit
Holy shit guy. Lmao. I work for an MSP and I can't even begin to articulate just how fucking stupid this is. At least the username checks out.
HellDuke@reddit
That's contradictory with your original post.
So are there no keys or did the company have a domain, email and use licenses? All of those by definition are keys you have and must hand over if you are not supporting them. Failure to do so if you did not properly separate it out is on you and up to you to figure out how to do it.
If I am told I stop getting paid, I would immediately transfer any backups of their data, login credentials for their email, domain management and licensing services (or license keys). If the domain is mingled with other "clients" of yours (i.e. you can't just give login to the registrar account, because someone elses' domains are there too) then you should really ask what registrar to transfer to and initiate the transfer. Same for email service.
Failure to do any of that could very likely be seen as intentional destruction of property. Imagine I mow your grass every month and you decide to stop paying me and stop doing it, so in response I go in and destroy your lawnmower, your shed and kick down the fence for good measure. Would you really not have any claim against me? You told me to stop providing you the service, so I will destroy everything related to the service. Makes no logical sense.
_AngryBadger_@reddit
This is not how MSPs do things at all! I'm an MSP with 60 businesses I support. The ones who use 365 all have their own tenant that they pay for. I have global admin rights to them and bill them a fee tk manage and support them. Only fly by night operators will have one mingled tenant.
If I get a request from a client that the no longer want to use my company, I simple acknowledge it, thank them for their business, let them know I'd be happy to revisit it down the line and the action the transfer of their domains/data. You're willfully misinterpreting and using malicious compliance to try and punish them.
Advanced_Vehicle_636@reddit
Oh boy.
Flunky hit the nail on the head. But just for the record (as someone who works for an MSP/MSSP) and has a "side gig" (I don't get paid) helping small charities with M365/gSuite (for Non Profits)
You are 100% wrong here. MSPs, at least any MSP worth hiring, has "keys to hand on". We do. Our clients data stays their data including their SIEM data. They maintain full administrative rights (though we ask them not to utilize it unless we're parting ways.) They have breakglass accounts.
A properly managed environment is going to be using GDAP (M365) to bring in your access into their environment. That is literally why it exists.
If the new owner of the company has any sense, they're going to sue you into bankruptcy. And you deserve every moment of it for behaviour like this. Get the fuck out of our business, you have no reason to be in it.
Rudager6@reddit
Hope you got some money set aside for the lawyer fees because you are 100% wrong with every point you’ve made.
Natirs@reddit
Have fun in court. I'd get a lawyer if I were you. Serious ethical and lack of following any kind of industry standards.
mechiah@reddit
I feel for the pinch you're in but no - professional MSP or even small scale, one-man "IT consultant" operations will have every client sectioned off on their own accounts.
Old-Olive-4233@reddit
Right‽ Even my girlfriend who has domains with shared hosting on my account has a login that'll allow her to access her domains (and not mine) and be able to administrate her email and update her webpages and such for her domains without effecting mine (not a Microsoft system though)!
Every MSP I've ever worked with (which, to be fair is only two) had everything split into separate tenants for each client and it was a massive PITA to admin until I discovered Firefox Containers that'd separate cookies for each client and make things so much easier.
I can't imagine having all my clients on a single Microsoft tenant or whatnot, with them having zero access and thinking that that is a good fucking idea, especially without a contract explicitly stating this. OP feeling that they're doing this properly and that there are 'no keys to pass on' is absolutely insane. Thinking that "this is just how freelancers operate" is bonkers. No, this absolutely isn't!
I hope OP posts the FO portion of this when they get there because they're currently in the FA portion of Fuck Around and Find Out
InlineUser@reddit
Just setup an LLC for my IT business I’ll be pursuing. Pre-revenue and 0 customers. Already have a way to hand over all customer documentation / credentials, sectioned off in a secure system. Any M365 Tenant work built from scratch will be their own to hand over.
To wrap yourself up in difficult ways to sever ties and forced migrations to save some setup time makes no sense. Any customer you have you should be able to hand over the keys within a day and without it living in your own companies multiple environments. Assume a client will hire an IT team one day and say “Thanks we’ll take it from here”.
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
It's insane that OP thinks this is too high of a bar for a freelancer.
Balthxzar@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1hdopsf/salary_help/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Shared tennant.....
Side job, paid cash, no contract......
Sysadmin for the gov.......
This seems pretty suspicious ATP op
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
Holy crap. OP is even shadier and less competent than I realized.
boli99@reddit
you dont know where the 'stuff' is. it could all be on OPs hardware or in OPs cloud accounts, or on OPs server(s) in a datacenter somewhere.
and it could even be in accounts with more than one company/tenant.
It could be in cloud services with OPs credit card attached to.
Without knowing where the 'stuff' is and what 'services' OP was supplying - you can't just say 'hand over credentials' as its often not that easy.
ben_zachary@reddit
First what is the reason behind the legal threat? Just stop doing work, remove anything you're paying for and don't answer calls.
As soon as someone mentions a lawyer all communication stops. Any communication moving forward should be from their attorney and then you can decide if you need one.
I'm not sure what I'm missing I read OP twice I kept thinking there was more to it.
Curious-Money2515@reddit
Life is much easier when you simply do what people ask. Stop working for them and send a final bill. Don't respond to any further contact.
AnalCranialInversion@reddit
Remindme! [14 days]
AnalCranialInversion@reddit
Remindme! 2 weeks
Sasataf12@reddit
Considering you don't have a contract and were being paid in cash, that's a massive no no in business.
While I would've taken a softer approach, the right call is to suspend the relationship until a proper arrangement can be made, e.g. they hire you or they find an established IT service provider.
The fact that suspending services with you also means they'll lose email access, backups, etc, just shows why this sort of arrangement is frowned upon.
My suggestion is you let them know that you actually own the services, not the business, and suspension of services means they no longer have access to emails, etc.
Knyghtlorde@reddit
They suspended him, not the service
Zealousideal_Yard651@reddit
If he is providing licensing and hosting, they are also suspending licenses.
Knyghtlorde@reddit
He isn’t hosting.
He is managing the hosted services for them.
sudonem@reddit
The answer to this sort of question always lies in the contract you had approved and signed.
That contract should have explicitly laid out the terms of cancellation of service, including what amount of lead time was to be required, how it is to be formalized and what to expect from both parties.
You DID have a contract didn't you?
Life_Show8246@reddit
The virgin contract vs the Chad verbal agreement.
Bubba89@reddit
The Thad shadow IT
cantITright@reddit (OP)
No contract. Just a small side gig I got
Valkeyere@reddit
Condolences. No contract no work. And this is why.
Crinkez@reddit
Mindestiny@reddit
This is the answer. Any sort of "malicious compliance" can absolutely legally bite OP in the ass here. Give them the keys to the kingdom and document the whole process. Do not just say "okbye" and leave their business hanging.
The fact that they don't know better doesn't matter, what matters is you know better, and they could argue that you intentionally caused damage to their business in the way you complied with handing over access to things that are legally their assets. This is not worth the fight.
Happy_Maker@reddit
Plus, handing over graciously will make them want you back if it blows up in their face, then you raise your rate, as you had to find new work to cover the gap.
m0fugga@reddit
This is not a customer OP should want.
Letterhead_North@reddit
That depends on whether they are teachable.
Jumping in and immediately attacking argues for them being best ignored once gotten rid of. But there is a possibility that the company could learn or the attack dog who pulled this is working from bad information or will be terminated.
It is a slim possibility, but once OP gets a lawyer involved on his side he'll learn a lot more about how they operate and whether this will be a permanent end to working with them.
Happy_Maker@reddit
That's completely fair. So he charges triple for showing them the ropes and moves on?
m0fugga@reddit
No need to show them anything other than their admin creds. The rest is on them.
NoReallyLetsBeFriend@reddit
No need to hand over documentation, not in the contact. OP provided services, and those were handled by OP. Nothing about providing documentation. Hands clean. If anything, per the nasty communication, there were no specifics on how to hand it over. That handling now falls on client on how to deal with issues!
Mindestiny@reddit
Yeah, that sounds great on paper but isn't always how it's going to play out in a courtroom when they sue you for damages to your business. Malicious compliance is not typically looked upon favorably by a judge.
drunkcowofdeath@reddit
Personally, I would ask. I would hand over the keys and say "Before you stop paying the bill, would you like me to provide documentation on what I am cancelling, potentially issues you may face by ending services, etc" because documentation can be time consuming and I'm sure as hell not doing to for free.
CosmologicalBystanda@reddit
Surely you just have to hand over the credentials and let them know they have to transfer licensing to another provider. Failure to keep paying me, or transfer to another provider will result in your emails not working and any other software they use.
GhostDan@reddit
In this situation, he's already threatened to sue you. I guess you can continue working with someone threatening to sue you, who thinks you charge too much, and has sent you a formal request to stop.
mwenechanga@reddit
We’re talking about 1-2 hours documenting the various systems you support, and the relevant admin credentials. That’s what a professional MSP does when fired, so if OP wants to be considered a professional, it’s what they’ll do.
Now, if they decline to take over paying for for office 360 or their backup solution or whatever that’s their concern - but documentation for a handover is already implicitly paid for in the month-to-month payments.
sorean_4@reddit
In writing.
drunkcowofdeath@reddit
Oh 100%. All commutation with this person should be recorded (with informed consent) from now own.
GhostDan@reddit
It will absolutely play out like this
"You stopped support"
"Yes according to this email they requested all support to end on this date"
"Ok, sounds good. Have a nice day!"
Probably a much more prolonged version of that given legal crap, but pretty much he has a request to stop services. In fact he'd be in more shit if he continued services after that step.
Mindestiny@reddit
It sure wouldn't. Believe me, I've seen this play out with shitty MSPs being contentiously offboards before. I've sat in very long meetings with very expensive lawyers arguing about this stuff. Ceasing a contract (even a verbal one) is not justification to intentionally sandbag someone's business and refusing to hand over access to things like domain registration can be considered theft of intellectual property. OP was the custodian of these things, but not the owner.
OP is on the hook for a transfer of governance. It should be a ten minute exercise of "here's your admin passwords" and then OP is good to go. Malicious compliance is not worth the risk here, at all.
Degenerate76@reddit
No-one was talking about domain registrations or account credentials before you brought it up.
Mindestiny@reddit
OP is literally talking about straight walking away and leaving the company in the lurch because "stop all services"
NoReallyLetsBeFriend@reddit
Sure, they can get DA acct info, but I'm not building it a network diagram or creating anything additional that'd take time since I'm no longer paid to do so. They get the bare minimum.
In court, since everything was in good standing/good faith prior, you had no reason to believe the agreement would be ending so you had no reason to have any other documentation at the ready. If they'd like help with anything else at all, that would come at a cost. I'm sure before it would even go to court that would be explained to cya.
mwenechanga@reddit
Not having a mostly current network diagram is shoddy work, and would indicate they were right to switch MSPs.
NoReallyLetsBeFriend@reddit
For what sounds like a really small business, it shouldn't be too complicated for anyone to take over, if they're even going to replace OP.
meteda1080@reddit
As OP stated, no contract and this was a cash side gig. I suspect it was off the books and not taxed properly on the business side to explain why new management wants to cut ties. The comment you're responding to didn't say anything about going into the system and locking anyone out. The commenter was only saying that OP is not obligated by law or by contract to explain how any of the licenses work or how the domain is setup or provide documentation or to work with vendors to transfer over support ownership. None of that was outlined in a bill of work or in a contract. The business can collect receipts and invoices then go to vendors to get it sorted just like any other business would when they fire an employee.
Mindestiny@reddit
A written contract doesn't matter. A verbal agreement still holds legal weight.
And that last thing on the list is what's critical - OP isn't on the hook to do a skills transfer, but OP is on the hook to transfer ownership/governance.
If they just maliciously refuse to hand over admin accounts and governance of property, they will be in a world of legal hurt, especially if it causes tangible damage to the business or their brand. They were the custodian of supporting these things, they are not the owner of these things.
Geno0wl@reddit
that wholly depends on if the person "getting screwed" was properly informed of the consequences.
OP ghosting the new owner and not even providing account credentials to gain access to managed systems comes across totally differently than OP properly handing everything over and telling them "if you don't renew this license, your domain will stop functioning and office products will stop working". Judges I know would be more than happy to rip the new owners ass for wasting the courts time in the second scenario
Mindestiny@reddit
For sure, the first scenario is definitely what I would call "malicious compliance." This is what a lot of people here are advocating OP does because "well they said stop all services!!!"
The second is a correct transition of governance of these resources and puts the ball in the businesses court. Even if the business is a dick about it, you're obligated to hand their property over and not just let it fail.
themast@reddit
Exactly, no contract cuts both ways. That owner is an idiot.
GhostDan@reddit
Why would he spend extra time documenting everything for them without being able to charge?
There's no contract here. He's got a written email saying his services are no longer needed. Print the email out, save it someplace safe, and stop support. End of sentence.
Mindestiny@reddit
To protect himself from legal action.
That email is not authorization to cause financial damage to the business by intentionally letting services fail.
It sounds stupid, but it'll cost OP far more to try to defend himself in court than to just properly hand off access to the critical accounts.
Nobody's saying write detailed how tos on managing a domain or training someone on M365, were saying make sure you document handing off the admin password to the domain registrar and admin accounts. It's about a clear chain of transfer of governance, not a transfer of technical skills.
Once that's done then yes, legally the ball is in their court to manage their own tech correctly. But you have no grounds to lock them out of their own digital property because they're ceasing your service.
Dazzling_Ad_4942@reddit
But any work taken to comply with turning over the keys and prevent that disruption to the ex customer would be billable work?, would it not?
Mindestiny@reddit
That's an entirely separate issue from a legal obligation not to sabotage their business.
If there was a contract in place, yes, it would be billable. But OP would need to decide if fighting over 20 minutes of their billable time with a hostile client is worth it should they choose not to pay. And that wouldn't absolve them of liability should they refuse to hand over access to the companies intellectual property and infrastructure
RVega1994@reddit
Agreed.
Compared to, say, a warehousing service. If you send an email cancelling, they must allow for time to retrieve your stuff. Just destroying it or kicking out on the streets for people to steal, would impact your business directly and the warehousing service could be held liable because the action was not reasonable.
Plus there are pay cycles and you’re probably covered until the end of the latest paid cycle. I would agree on closing the business, explain where my coverage reaches and maybe give one or two extra days because I know the new business owner has no clue what he’s doing.
Set up a meeting with his new tech personnel, where I will explain everything I do and hand off credentials. You’re not paying me for knowledge transfer, so I will just recite from the back of my mind and you can hope your new tech guy understands all of it. Oh no new tech guy? Well you better pay attention because your business may depend on everything I’m going to inform you of.
By the end we may end up just renegotiating a new contract once the customer has a better informed perspective 🤷🏻♂️
1nc0mp3t3nc3@reddit
That doesn't necessarily mean the owners won't come after him once OP does as instructed. At the very least OP should be making an effort to protect his ass in the event the cessation of services and contracts backfire, as they have a tendency to do
Zestyclose-String304@reddit
This is a good point.
Long-Shine-3701@reddit
This right here.
Dzov@reddit
100%. Always be ethical within reason. You may even get them back as a client when they realize the benefits you bring.
Financial_Shame4902@reddit
I would hope Op never engages with them again after this disrespect.
dougmc@reddit
It depends on the specifics.
The OP wasn't really clear on what was said, and so "and threatened legal action" could just be "if you don't give us all the keys to our kingdom, we'll be forced to get a lawyer".
I mean, that would definitely strike me as premature and would be a red flag, but it wouldn't be enough for me to call my lawyer or stop talking to them. (Though both could certainly happen later, depending on how talks go.)
Michelanvalo@reddit
You're not wrong but OP should retain a business law lawyer to help him understand what his legal obligations are in this situation. None of us have any clue what his requirements are in this jurisdiction.
Valkeyere@reddit
Without question you're correct yeah. I figured that was a given :P
Michelanvalo@reddit
You'd think it was a given but the amount of bad, shitty advice OP is being given is off the charts. Once the legal action was threatened this became a legal matter and not an IT one and everyone here is giving him (terrible) IT style advice. As soon as legal action is threatened I'm looking for a lawyer for a consultation to find out what I should be doing. Especially in a non-contract cash only situation where god knows who or what software, services and hardware are purchased by and registered to who or what.
salpula@reddit
Honestly having dealt with a legal situation, admittedly completely different,p but also one that went from "why would I need a legal thing here?" To "oh fuck I'm about to be out a lot of money" I wish I had been advised to contact somebody for legal advice sooner. One can always start out by contacting a free legal service to get a basic opinion from a lawyer and move from there to determine whether they need to actually put at the money to retain a lawyer. I am now have to spend the time and money to seek compensation when it's possible that for a flat fee and a few letters from a lawyer I could have retained thousands of dollars that I'm now seeking to recoup. . . But it was easier to feel confused and do what felt like it made sense rather than what was legally in my best interest.
Letterhead_North@reddit
That Experience talking here, OP! Listen to it!
b-monster666@reddit
Agreed. OP should also get in writing that the new owner definitely wants all IT services stopped, and ensure that the client has a full understanding of what all that entails, in writing. Especially if there is no contract in order.
Perhaps something to the effect of, "Just so I am clear, you are requesting that all services such as: X, Y, and Z be stopped immediately pending litigation and review? Do you require any sort of administrator access to these services during this period as we will no longer be able to provide the services once our work has ceased with this. This will mean, you will lose access to these services unless you have someone with administrator priviledges, and we are in no way responsible for the functionality of these services after this specific date?"
Make it clear as fucking mud that he is the one requesting the stoppage of work, and that he is fully aware of any outages that may occur due to the work stoppage.
Granted, take my advice with a grain of salt...I'm not a business lawyer, and OP is really caught between a rock and a hard place. New client sounds like a royal cheese dick, and it probably would be best to cut ties because it will just get worse and worse from here on out.
ScrubscJourney@reddit
There are no legal ramifications here really. No contract, no obligation on OP's part. He was basically fired...So he owes them nothing. Only thing he has to do is turn over any administrative passwords, if they were paying for any SAAS services let them know that will be terminated and they can go pound sand.
Been in the msp game for 25 years. This situation is common enough. But always have a contract anyway. Customer wants to fire me? Then whatever was left due in the yearly contract fee wise are due within 2 weeks, if no payment is made see you in arbitration.
Automatic_Rock_2685@reddit
No legal ramifications but is REQUIRED BY LAW to turn over the administrative passwords.
So, there are legal ramifications.
r6throwaway@reddit
Fucking moron. No wonder you've been at an MSP for 25 years
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
OP holds the customers data. They absolutely have an obligation here.
JamesTiberiusCrunk@reddit
I'm not sure how you think you can make a blanket statement like "there are no legal ramifications here" without actually being a lawyer.
fahque@reddit
A consultation won't do anything except tell OP what they'll have to spend to get straight. For me it was $1500. It's hard to justify that for one side client.
j0mbie@reddit
It's a mistake they have to learn the hard way, or run the risk they'll have even more of things to to court.
It sucks but almost every MSP learns that the hard way eventually.
The_ritlar@reddit
Great advise.
badaz06@reddit
I agree on the lawyer. As far as handing everything over, that depends on whose name everything is in. If the PC's are mine and you're renting them, then they're mine. And everything on it is technically "mine". ("I provided you a device to do work, surf porn, whatever..now you dont want to use them, I want them back. Anything on them that you leave there is mine as well."
Seriously, you're going to need some legal help here and in the future to protect your butt and make sure the terms are clear and concise regarding what you provide and what they are responsible for or own.
Regarding email and such, if they are paying for the Tenant directly and you're just managing it, give it to them. If they are paying you to provide a service and no don;t wish to continue, I don't see where you owe them anything.
But, my thoughts mean nothing in a court of law.
Drumdevil86@reddit
In some countries (like mine), when doing work without contract, you're still considered to have an (employment) contract, even if it's not written down. Anything agreed upon via mail, text or verbally, as well as the specific activities / work that is carried out are seen as a part of that contract.
However, the amount of legal backing you have depends on whether or not you reported the income and paid taxes (if required).
techw1z@reddit
funfact: the same is true in the US. formless contracts and implicit contracts are everywhere in daily life.
Runthescript@reddit
A contract covers oral argeements as well. If there is record of you being paid in any way id talk to a lawyer not reddit. I wouldnt do shit until i get legal advice. Id lock them out for non payment but not return anything until the situations been mediated or you will take the L.
sudonem@reddit
Welp.
No contract means you have no recourse, but it also means you owe them nothing.
Perhaps in a few weeks or months they'll reach out requestint asisstance - at which point you'll have the opportunity to bill outrageous rates (get a signed contract, and a deposit) or tell them to kick rocks.
If the new owner wants you gone, it's unlikely you could have done anything to salvage the situation, so consider it a bridge burned.
And next time don't start working without a contract. It protects you AND the client by eliminating surprises (like this one).
Frothyleet@reddit
This is not necessarily true and it's the reason why OP should be talking to a lawyer rather than a subreddit.
Old-Olive-4233@reddit
I would assume they still owe them anything they've already paid for (domain name registration, any hosting that was pre-paid, software licenses, known passwords to accounts, etc...) and I'd include a backup of their current website and a link to their backups that they can download as well with dates that they'll no longer be accessible and the specific date(s) that $List-of-Services will stop working on.
If OP had a contract that said these items aren't owned by $ShittyCompany and are instead only leased through $OPs_Company, then that'd be one thing, but, OP doesn't have a contract one way or another and this company paid for licenses and domains and other items that they have a reasonable expectation that those things will stay with them even if they cancel OPs services.
skyxsteel@reddit
$600 an hour minimum 2 hours 🤑🤑 a minute after 2 hours is billed as another 2 hours.
(Basically a fuck you rate)
SecretSquirrelSauce@reddit
My old director got this rate, and the old company was so desperate that they had no choice but to pay him. It was glorious to watch.
accidental-poet@reddit
My very old neighbor was an engineer at a global engineering company. He's the kind of engineer that gets on his knees and sticks his head in the machine to see what the fuck is going on instead of standing there twisting his mustaches and pondering engineering principals. Ha.
At about 75, he decided it was way past time to retire, "This company has gone to shit, I'm outta here!". He retired. They begged him to come back. They were so desperate for his troubleshooting skills, they hired him as a contractor just so he could attend the "Oh, Shit" meetings, remotely, once a week.
Occasionally I'll hear the backup beeper next door as a huge truck backs up into his driveway and dumps a load of cash. Just so they can pick his oversized brain once in a while. lmao
Brilliant-Advisor958@reddit
Prepaid in advance!
rcade2@reddit
I've almost never seen a situation where a company is sold and anyone wants to honor any contracts. The outgoing owner says it's not his problem, and the new owner says the contract is with the old guy. Catch-22, you're still stuck.
cas13f@reddit
Contracts are (supposed to be, anyway) with the business entity, which is almost always transferred as part of a business purchase.
rcade2@reddit
Business sales can be structured all sorts of ways. Sometimes they just buy the clients, or some other asset, leaving the "business" to the owner.
Anyway, I am sure others have run into this. We just expect we won't be paid anymore, and are usually right.
sudonem@reddit
Definitely - and that’s addressed with language that specifies that this contract is between the vendor and the company, not an individual at the company. That’s pretty standard and means the new owner can’t really make that claim.
To be clear, I am not at all suggesting that the new owner cannot cancel a contract (because you’re right, it’s likely they’ll want to do things their own way) - but that the contract should specify exactly the details for how it can be cancelled and what is expected by both parties when cancellation happens.
Usually it’s along the lines of “this contract can be cancelled by either party at any time”, but it is not uncommon to include language that requires a minimum notice period (of say… 30/60 days) and then lays out exactly the things that the client and vendor are responsible for.
Such as how the handoff of documentation, or resources will happen, and specifically what is proprietary work product of the vendor that won’t be provided because it’s their own special sauce etc - and then the specific terms for how final payment must be made and within what timeframe.
If it’s a very small project then it’s easy, but if it’s an ongoing support contract where you’re in retainer, then a minimum notice, and a phased handover strategy is smart - for the client and the vendor.
The entire point is to protect both parties by setting clear expectations for what will happen at every step of the business relationship so there are no surprises or shady shit.
I am definitely not a lawyer but worked as a freelancer for a very long time, and this is all standard stuff that any lawyer that does business/contract law will be able to cook up pretty rapidly.
SpaceGuy1968@reddit
Yeh...no contract means you can stop at anytime
deadzol@reddit
Learn your lesson and have a MSA next time 😝
_DeathByMisadventure@reddit
As soon as someone threatens any legal action, the most important thing you can do is to respond with: "As you have mentioned legal action, all further communications must be through my lawyer, have a nice day."
ANY other response will basically open you up to getting more screwed.
420GB@reddit
Uhm, aren't you basically an unauthorized hacker digging into the clients systems and data if you have no contract?
Brother, people have gone to prison for CFAA violations and in this political situation you know what kind of prison that could be. You seriously putting your life on the line to play help desk for some mom&pop business?
My1xT@reddit
Depending on the jurisdiction there are places where you don't need an explicit written contract
Valdularo@reddit
That’s game over mate.
IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit
No such thing as a job too small for a contract, friend. And now you know =/
lowNegativeEmotion@reddit
Send him a disengagement letter with a list of services you provide and the last effective day you will provide those services. Require a signature to release liability and payment for any outstanding invoices. Afterwards you are willing to generate a runbook of credentials.
almathden@reddit
You are a business - time to start acting like one
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Not your monkey, not your circus.
Buy some popcorn and watch the fireworks.
OGKillertunes@reddit
TLDR use chatgpt to write contracts for your it business.
radraze2kx@reddit
If the old owners were paying you for all services and you were in charge of paying for any vendor-provided services, your invoices become your evidence of services rendered (you're a VAR). If the new owner told you to suspend all services in writing, suspend the services, as he's provided you proof of request to terminate.
When he's shocked at the chaos, you have a conversation with him about exactly what you do.
After that, if he asks you to spin everything back up, you charge him for the time to do so AND you get a contract. And if he refuses to pay, you suspend it again and let him figure it out for himself either by paying you or by paying someone else.
MalwareDork@reddit
Bro the moment the owner threatened legal action is the moment you cut off all contact and tell them that they can mediate with your legal counsel with attached contact info.
People who threaten to sue are some of the shittiest clowns to walk on this earth and you shouldn't feel bad about stonewalling them.
pppjurac@reddit
document everything, prepare package with keys, login and subscription information and hand it to new owners ; at handout get a witness (a lawyer if possible) and end the story; do not use "burning bridges" tactics, be polite and professional .
Chazus@reddit
The PROPER thing to do, is to hand over a whitesheet of passwords and any documentation.
I wouldn't be petty about it. Just do it. Chances are they will call you back. If not, it's their problem
da_chicken@reddit
You should have had a written contract. That is your big lesson. Even if it was just a list of the services provided, terms of payment, and terms of termination which includes a requirement for written notice. If you're going to do these kind of side gigs, it's worth the money to have a lawyer draw up a contract template you can use.
Personally, I would send an email and a registered letter stating that per the conversation on, the services will be terminated. Then I would enumerate all the services, and provide a contact number. That way he can't come after YOU for breach.
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
Not only did they not have a contract. They comingled the customers services with other customers. That's why they can't cleanly hand it over to the new owner. OP mismanaged this and deserves the fury they're getting from the new owner.
fried_green_baloney@reddit
Also depends on how the transfer of ownership of the client company took place.
If it's a new business entity it's possible the old contract doesn't apply to the new business.
If enough money is at stake to justify it, consider seeing a lawyer.
Another reason for legal advice is to help ensure the new owners can't cause trouble after they screw up trying to run things themselves.
It's amazing how a lawyer letter shuts big mouths up. Not always, but very often.
Different-Hyena-8724@reddit
I would ask, do you have errors and omissions insurance and then 2, refer it to your attorney. Or 3. Maybe they aren't even worth the time if they are going to bitch and moan about every little thing. Just get in writing when they call that due to the separation or breach of contract, and future work will be billed at XYZ*2 of current rate as there would be an implied expectation that your business drops everything and meets and unreasonable SLA of 2 hours or something like that.
CGS_Web_Designs@reddit
This is really the answer, if you have a contract it should all be there. If not, then you need to dig out all communication you had with the previous owners (emails, texts, etc…) where any commitments were made for services and pricing because if this goes the legal way, it’s all you have to cover your ass.
vdragonmpc@reddit
There must be something in the water lately. My friend has a company and he was in the middle of migrating a business to their new location. He was bending over backwards for them as they were trying to save money all over. He allowed them to buy their own cameras and equipment and was running the wiring and setting everything up.
He was setting up their systems and devices as he was 'their I.T. guy'. Gets an email that an MSP is taking over monday and he will just be doing 'certain things as needed'. He noped out. The contract was he was their I.T. guy. What it looks like is the office manager brought in the MSP who is mainly just going to do PC remote work. They failed previously to provide timely support and were replaced by my friend's company.
He terminated services after recieving the email that another company was coming in. They messed up as I dont think the email was supposed to go before the projects were completed. Was wild the MSP claimed there was no firewall when they bought a brand new one for the site. The MSP does not provide DVR, Alarm, Door or any kind of wiring services.
So far as predicted they have not paid the bills submitted. He is going to have to put a lien on them.
BobRepairSvc1945@reddit
Umm was your friend licensed? If he was not he may not get paid and could be in legal trouble. Access control, alarms, and cameras require a properly licensed installer in most jurisdictions.
vdragonmpc@reddit
Yes he is. Thats the funny part. He was doing the access doors when he got the email. This was after getting everything moved over.
It seems the office manager pulled this and made a major mistake. They have to do exactly what you are saying as no one will work on someone else's system. They get to begin again.
Dude is happy to be free of them as it kept going and going. He has other clients and they dragged the move over months with constant changes. He jumped in and was there each call. Then she sent that email which I read and was unprofessional as hell. Then she tried to backpedal saying "Oh we didnt think you were able to do Computer support that we need". He has been their provider for over a year.
BobRepairSvc1945@reddit
I don't know where you or he is but in Florida unlicensed contracting on Alarm systems and access control systems is a misdemeanor the first time and a felony thereafter.
vdragonmpc@reddit
Im not sure where licensing comes into an issue where a company is terminated by an email from an office manager while performing the job?
Thats what the company does. The new company that suddenly is coming in does not. And the business will have to pay another company to come in and start over and most will not allow cameras they do not sell/provide.
BobRepairSvc1945@reddit
I am simply saying he should be wary of fighting them for any payment because they could make his life hell since he was illegally doing work.
vdragonmpc@reddit
Are you ok? This is his actual business. He is in no way doing illegal work. Thats not his issue nor the point.
The companies they have brought in now are not willing to implement the cameras they do not sell nor will they work with the access system.
They have gone past 30 days on the bill and will be getting a lien.
BobRepairSvc1945@reddit
Does he have a security installer license? If he doesn't (and judging from the post this is most likely) then he is doing what is generally called illegal contracting.
PhishKnut@reddit
With no contract and no written way to prove that you were being paid to have access to those services (Cash transactions), new owners could claim you’ve illegally gained access to them and locked them out.
You effed yourself by pretending to be an MSP and not protecting yourself or your client with a contract expressly defining services and terms. You’re on incredibly shaky grounds legally and ethically. If this goes to court, even civilly, it will come out that you were being paid cash, presumably under the table, that you haven’t paid taxes on. The IRS and judges tend to take a dim view of that. If you start deleting emails, you’re in potential violation of the Stored Communications Act.
How many felonies are you willing to commit because you were an idiot and decided to live up to your Reddit handle?
Worth_Efficiency_380@reddit
Let them find out. I had a similar client , Yet I hosted their entire infrastructure. I was nice enough to print out all their data and ship it to them. hundreds of thousands of pages. cost them 5 figures for me to be nice.
BitOfDifference@reddit
Anything that is theirs on their property needs to be handed over. If you host any services, they will need to pay to transfer them to another company/service or they can continue to pay you to host them. Make sure they know the cost upfront for any additional money they need to put up. Everything should be explained to them in detail and in written form so there are no questions. They should also be given a timeframe to do what they want.
I assume this new owner already has their own IT, hence why they say its too expensive. You had a good gig, sucks to let it go, but time changes everything. Either find another party, give them a super deal they cant refuse or stop doing side work.
NomadicWorldCitizen@reddit
Send an email explaining that services are therefore terminated and that any subsequent emails or phone calls will be invoiced at your rate and minimum 30 min increments.
Odd-Sun7447@reddit
Make sure to send a summary email of the services they are asking to be terminated. Ask for explicit understanding of what the implications will be if you do that (like tell them in advance and make them agree to it first).
They don't have a contract, so make sure to do this within the same month that they sent you the initial cancellation request so nobody can piss and moan about additional fees for carrying over to another month of service.
Once you get that acknowledgement in writing, do as the client asks. They want you to stop their services, then you do it man. Just CYA first otherwise when you unplug them from their email, domain, and backups, they're going to freak out and threaten to sue you again.
tmstksbk@reddit
Write a legal letter outlining what will happen if you terminate services, the risk to the business, and why they should develop a transition plan and what that plan might look like. E-mail and then certified/return-receipt snail mail the letter to them.
If they say "screw you shut it down"...shut it down. But don't delete anything.
If they develop a transition plan, great, but get in writing that they will pay whatever fees you need to cover costs and effort to transition them.
If they let you shut it down but then freak out, get in writing that they will cover your costs and effort, charge them a reactivation fee, and turn it back on.
Negotiate with them on your costs / effort if you want.
Either way, lawyer up and get a contract.
Luckygecko1@reddit
threatened legal action? for what?
"Regarding your comments on my rates and the mention of legal action, I consider my services to have been provided in good faith. With the suspension of services initiated by you, I consider our previous informal arrangement concluded in full."
"Information regarding the IT infrastructure, including domain registration, email hosting, backup locations, and license details, can be compiled and provided. Given your stated intention to pursue legal action, this information package will be made available through an escrow service upon receipt of a fee of $[Your Proposed Fee] to cover the time and effort for compilation and handover. Otherwise, as per your instruction, I will no longer be accessing or managing any IT assets related to [Business Name], including but not limited to domain names, email services, backups, or software licenses. I will not be maintained any documentation related to your assets."
"Alternatively, you are free to conduct your own discovery of these assets via your own means. "
ninjaluvr@reddit
Most likely for not turning over the passwords to their accounts.
Luckygecko1@reddit
At my last workplace, we had a vault, and in that vault was a safe with all the passwords I used written in different envelopes with tamper seals on them. I checked them weekly for tampering and updated them as needed.
If I 'got hit by a bus' they would have had them.
Failing prior instructions or a work agreement, you would think the new owner could catch more flies with honey the path they have chosen. The owner should have done their due diligence with the prior owner. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ninjaluvr@reddit
Oh yeah, the new owners sound like assholes guy sure. But regardless, the accounts and passwords are those of the business and OP will be spending a lot of money on lawyers if they don't turn over those accounts and passwords.
Vogete@reddit
I had a similar story (my parents' company), where the MSP at first didn't want to hand over the admin password for Azure and the ESXi server to my parents (well, consequently to me) because as far as they were concerned nobody in the company should have access because nobody knows how to use it. It didn't escalate to court because nobody wanted that, but we had to come up with a good excuse to get it sorted as fast as possible. (Excuse was to comply with ISO 9001. Which is not even an excuse, it's a legit reason)
They complied, because they weren't assholes per se, they just really didn't want "someone's tech wiz kid" to just have access to everything without any actual knowledge. We agreed that they will retain an admin account but I get one as well, and the main one gets put in a safe for emergencies only.
But in this case we could reason with everyone. If any party was a major asshole, the other side would've had a bad time.
andrewsmd87@reddit
We're not an MSP but provide a lot of it services to our clients for a SaaS product and are specifically fighting this all the time. They want to do something and we are like, no this is a bad idea. We usually win that fight but not always.
I actually was troubleshooting something the other day and when I found the root cause the main guy goes we would never have told you to do it that way, so I looked at git history, found the ticket, and the part where we documented client (his name specifically) said to do this and we've explained why it's a bad idea but are doing it anyways, along with the email with his approval.
Sounds like they at least came up with a workable solution for you but I would have had the same reservations.
I've also worked at an MSP and for every one capable person like you, there are 10 more people full of themselves who think because they went to law school they can magically handle IT better than you, and then come screening emergency because they didn't understand changing their name servers to GoDaddy to save 10$ a month on hosting would bring down their email
CosmologicalBystanda@reddit
I've had clients/owners make these requests. Like, I want macros enabled on my network, or I want the admin credentials for x employee or z employee. I dont have a problem handing them over(owners have access to all passwords anyway, but usually don't use em). I just say sure, please sign this document detailing the risks associated with this and the additional costs for fixing what will inevitably occur from doing action X.
andrewsmd87@reddit
^ Smart person
dezmd@reddit
From a generic MSP pov, providing you with the admin login credentials to Azure and ESXi for you to implement changes on your own outside of a scoped and MSP vetted project likely breaks some terms of the the Master Service Agreement with the MSP, from terms of infrastructure management control and liability/quality of work guarantees/SLA/BDR/everything requirements.
You get a 'break glass' admin account to use if there is any organizational issues between corp and MSP, and then a temp admin account, with an MSA addendum signoff by the owners, for each project that needs it that provides no liability coverage and no SLA related coverage for any issues that may result.
punklinux@reddit
You'd be very surprised what some people do when they get in charge. One of the biggest illusions people have is that those who end up in leadership have any sort of plan or strategy. I mean, some do, don't get me wrong, but a lot of people end up incharge as a result of some random thing unrelated to whether they actually have a clue how to run what they are now supposedly in charge of.
I started to see this with conspiracy theorists, but then realized how widespread this kind of blind ignorance is. A lot of management is a confidence game, so "threatened legal action? For what?" applies to a rational reasoning... which may not always be the case.
One scenario is OP has a contract. New management sees money going towards something they don't understand. I see this happen all the time.
"Lennox server administration? We have building maintenance take care of HVAC. Fire that guy." This REALLY happened to a friend of mine. The new management didn't know what Linux was. The CTO was blindsided to lose his Linux guy, and he fought to get him back. Then the CTO was later fired for "being difficult" and that company's tech stack went into the shitter. People just kept speculating on manager's long term strategy, like "he had a savings with a contracted outsourcer" or "to remove and consolidate duplicate efforts," but after three years, the board of directors realized he was a complete idiot and fired him. But the damage this guy did was unimaginable. Websites stopped working, people weren't getting their mail, and so on.
Luckygecko1@reddit
"...applies to a rational reasoning... which may not always be the case...."
This hits very home with the United States' current situation.
Thanks for your reply. I enjoyed reading it.
IJustLoggedInToSay-@reddit
Especially the part about everyone speculating about what the actual plan is, while those of us who have experience with these sorts of folks are shouting "there is no plan, they're just idiots!"
ITaggie@reddit
See: Peter Principle
symcbean@reddit
Good reply - but I would be very careful about the use of "handover" here - you could end up giving free support to someone whom has no clue what they are doing. e.g.
Luckygecko1@reddit
That's why I suggested an escrow service. To give some finality to the transaction. Although, you make a good point.
OemNerd2K@reddit
...
CyberTech-Guy@reddit
PerRevolutions@reddit
I live in Columbus Ohio, and ever since 2008 The temp agencies have convinced all the big organizations here that their I.T. needs are temporary
So I feel your pain
SnooEpiphanies1008@reddit
As we navigate this transition period, I want to inform you of a pre-existing and unavoidable commitment. I will be in Santorini, Greece, from [Start Date] to [End Date] (inclusive), returning on [Return Date].
During this week, please be aware that internet connectivity can be unreliable in the region, and my access to email will consequently be limited. I will monitor for urgent matters when possible, but responses is not guaranteed.
To ensure clarity regarding my role during this transition, my engagement with [Old Company Name/Old Owner's Name] has been as an independent contractor, providing skilled IT services. The previous owner compensated for these specialized services, and all tools, processes, and intellectual property developed or utilized by me remain part of my independent service provision.
Before my departure on [Date before trip starts], I am committed to thoroughly documenting all relevant IT processes, systems I've managed, and the status of any ongoing tasks to facilitate a smooth handover or any interim arrangements you may have.
I trust this advance notice allows ample time for your internal planning and any contingency measures. I am, of course, available to discuss critical handover items before I leave.
ctsi6288@reddit
I've had this happen a few times. The incoming owner has his team of pros where you are on the underdog team. If you didn't have a contract then walk away, and feel lucky to be able to do so. It hurts, it sucks, but a lot of us IT guys are not slick car salesmen but instead a nuts and bolts thinker. It is rather difficult to express the value our services bring and thus the incoming owner, who does not have a rapport with you, is going to be suspect. I've learned to simply thank them for their consideration and walk away. I don't have a contract because I feel one should not need a contract to prove good work. Plus, I don't want to be stuck with an antagonistic client. There is plenty of work out there and I'll just go and find a more appreciative client.
So in short, suspend all services as the client directs, ask for payment for all past services provided up until the suspension date, then release all licenses and domains without delay after payment received. That info may be theirs but difficult to argue if they have not paid for services already rendered.
If they choose not to pay then suggest small claims where you will be happy to provide their licenses and domains once payment has been received in the form of a cashier's check which you will be happy to pick up in person and provide them the licenses and account credentials at the same time. For domains I'll have my registrar transfer their domain to an individual account and will hand them the login credentials once payment is in my hand. If client is hostile, as yours sounds to be, then I only accept cashier's check or cash as to avoid them revoking payment afterwards.
Don't be worried about their reasoning. Some clients just cannot see the forest through the trees and need to learn the hard way. Let your value speak for itself and those who are capable of finding the forest will flock to you.
No_Wear295@reddit
If you're feeling nice: Spell it out for them in plain language and ask them to confirm that they wish to suspend your services.
If you're not feeling nice: Send an email confirming that you will be suspending your services as outlined in your service agreement. When the fecal matter hits the fan, refer them back to the initial service agreement and offer to resume services at a new, increased rate of your choosing.
_AngryBadger_@reddit
Why me so malicious? It's obvious they simply don't want to work with OP anymore, not have all their stuff stop. This happens in business it's not personal, clients come and go. I'm an MSP with 60 clients. When I get a client wanting to cancel I don't assume they want all their stuff deleted and srbckes stopped, like OP and some people are doing here. I simple thank them for their business and start the transfer process. The problem is OP has all their clients on one tenant so he can't just start the transfer so easily. Most clients on 365 expect their tenant to stay unchanged even if the MSP changes.
I don't understand all this unethical malicious compliance.
tooongs@reddit
It's an insane way to take "suspend all services"
Organic_Road_248@reddit
Sit back and wait 🙃
danwang86@reddit
UpdateMe!
ceantuco@reddit
I hope you have an LLC and as others have suggested, contact a lawyer.
the_rezzzz@reddit
Lawyer up. No more communication with the client until you speak with a lawyer. Do it today.
Xidium426@reddit
Since you don't have a contract I'd have a lawyer write up a letter explaining what they will lose by this request. Have them get it signed and notarized and then proceed.
Lost_Amoeba_6368@reddit
im so sorry but it's losing* in this instance
RevolutionaryClue664@reddit
It's never loosing.
Lost_Amoeba_6368@reddit
originally i had it as lose* as in lose vs loose but changed it and forgot to delete the "in this instance"
edhands@reddit
OP, get off reddit and find a good lawyer to consult. Ask them also how to protect yourself moving forward.
SocraticCato77@reddit
Any news OP?
MossySendai@reddit
I would try to spell out exactly what it means to suspend IT services.
What domains, email server etc you pay for in their name. What accounts you need to handover to them. Any routine tasks they should probably takeover.
If they don't know a domain will go down due to cancelled services then you should tell them.
Eggtastico@reddit
Give them their passwords & any other information that really belongs to the company. wish them luck with their IT & finding an alterantive service provider.
Any future queries or questions will be treated as new business with a new rate.
sprtpilot2@reddit
Simple. They fired you.
mooseable@reddit
Part of business. Have contracts, don't get hung up on idiots.
In terms of handling the situation, be the good guy, give what they ask, advise what they "should" do if they stop services (go transfer the domain, pay for ms licensing, etc) but don't do the work FOR them.
If they're dumb enough to take you to court, you being reasonable and going beyond your requirements and them being unreasonable will speak volumes.
wyrdough@reddit
Send a friendly email outlining what needs to be transferred to their control, have them set up any relevant accounts/MFA if necessary, and transfer control of the resources to those new accounts.
Make it clear that you will charge your usual rate for the time it takes for you to do all that and to assist with their end of things if they need the help.
Explain what they will need to do, but do not explain how unless they agree to pay for it. Hell, maybe don't even offer to provide advice, just refer them to another MSP since they're being a dick about it. Their attitude may change when they get a quote from said MSP, but you should terminate the relationship regardless. There is no sense in dealing with people who try to bully you. Life's way too short to work for people who don't appreciate what you do.
Given that they threatened legal action for whatever dumb shit reason, I'd strongly consider looping in an attorney, but then I work for lawyers who would love to point and laugh with me and wouldn't bother charging me for sending a letter telling them to stop being a fucking idiot. If you don't have that kind of relationship, you may or may not want to do all that since retainers can be a pretty good chunk of cash even if the threats amount to nothing and you end up getting most of it back in the long run.
BlackV@reddit
OP already yolo'ed the shite out of there
Reverent@reddit
Oof. See them in Best of Legal Advice soon.
BlackV@reddit
Magic 8 says: All signs point to yes
ncc74656m@reddit
I mean if they threatened me like that I'd OFFER to help with the transfer at standard rate, that way when they consent you're charging for even writing that email, lol, but otherwise no free advice and I'd give them the rope to hang themselves with.
"Please note that since my services are charged at an hourly rate, I can only provide you with existing logins for free and when current payments expire. Please let me know how you wish to receive that information securely. Of course, should you wish to engage me, I'll gladly assist with that transfer work and provide you any additional services you require to make this a smooth transition for you."
wyrdough@reddit
Oh, under normal circumstances I'd also make that offer. Hell, I have made that offer when clients have been acquired and the acquirer has an IT department or an existing MSP relationship. Sometimes I've been asked to manage the now legacy systems for a substantial period of time while they transition to whatever the new parent uses and I'm happy to do that. TBH, I'm usually quite happy to have less work, so I have zero reason to be salty about a relationship ending.
As soon as they start talking about legal action for no apparent reason, I'm done. I have fired more than one client just for being unpleasant in general, so I sure as shit am not going to put up with threats. We don't have to be friends, but we should all at least be friendly about the whole thing.
ncc74656m@reddit
Yeah. I'm not offering any advice or information freely at that point. I'll only make sure I am not going to receive a bill for their stuff. I don't care if they can't get in, I don't care if they don't know how to set up MFA, nada. But if you're paying me, I'll take your money - up front though with that kind of attitude.
"You should have this information already. I was not contracted to build a run book for your environment. You believe you have all the knowledge and experience, then all you should need are logins."
BmanDucK@reddit
No, you can't just delete the data that the new owner purchased as a part of the business. You'll get put in a courtroom before you can say "lol".
You can give them everything you have and say good luck. Anything else is illegal and will get you into trouble. You can try to invoice for the work, but good luck getting payed without a contract.
patGmoney@reddit
Ideally, pull their plug on a weekend at the end of the month. F'em and move on.
downundarob@reddit
Respond via email acknowledging the cessation of services, then list the services that are about to cease
Make it professional and courteous, no need to burn any bridges here.
Provide them the list of usernames and passwords and provide them with a final invoice.
_AngryBadger_@reddit
He can't do any of that because all the people he supports are on a single tenant and now he has to try and untangle things. So instead he's going to just delete their data and move on.
downundarob@reddit
Well I guess some offboarding processes are now required.
Surreal7niner@reddit
Send an invoice for the transferring of services. Give them a deadline. Make the invoice payable by X date. Have all your ducks in a row, meaning documentation on the environment and what the new provider needs to do take over the environment (domain transfer, admin account, license payment, etc. ) This work is what you are invoicing for. State in the invoice that services will stop on X date of not transferred. Send them an email and have the same email sent via certified mail.
I'd give them 30 days. More if you'd like. They will Likely shop for someone else wand realize you are worth it, but you are not obligated to continue business with them.
Just make sure your covered if they do nothing and you stop services.
Hasuko@reddit
Dude has all his clients in a shared tenant. That's all you need to know.
ennova2005@reddit
Contracts not withstanding, it is extremely bad form to just destroy data held on behalf of someone else.
Imagine a bank destroying the contents of your locker because you terminated your rental without giving you a deadline to remove the contents before taking that drastic and irreversible step.
The damages could be litigated and a court may or may not rule in favor of OP.
OP seems to have acted out of spite and it is just as as well it was a side gig because if word got out that the data in OP's care was destroyed for any reason that would not bode well for his future business. Potential customers would only hear that OP destroyed data and that cloud would for ever hang over him - that he could act similarly with their data in case there is a dispute.
eoinedanto@reddit
What about getting them to sign a termination agreement that explains what you DID provide and NO LONGER do as of X date.
Don’t write them a full handbook that tells them HOW to do all this stuff; just list is as bullets ; eg “maintaining domain name registrations for sample.com and other.org”
Propose they extend current services for 60 days to allow them to use that list to get competing quotes, and reduce risk to business interruptions but don’t force it. Some customers are better left behind.
Get your contracts in place for ALL other customers pronto.
1nc0mp3t3nc3@reddit
Since no contract was offered/signed, I would give the new owners a written warning with details such as:
Services that will be suspended and what they do Whether the current subscriptions are in contract or month to month and their termination fees Any grace periods allowed for by the vendors The impact to day to day business operations sudden termination will be expected to have.
If they then also agree in writing they have read the risks and understand/accept, then do as they wish. It's not your fight to keep fighting at this point, they are clearly looking for an excuse to cut you off and hire some high school graduate to do your job at minimum wage or less if they get in on an internship.
No company that respects it's technology department would work this way and you should break your neck looking out for them as they won't look out for you
axoltlittle@reddit
A lot of these comments seem a little harsh to be honest. I get there was no contract and that you have no legal recourse. But this can be handled kindly. I get the new owners are being dicks, but no point fighting dick with dick.
I’ve been on the other side of this (without contract as well), albeit, I sent a request letter 2 months before termination of services for a company we had offloaded our networking control to. They were so bad, they couldn’t even setup a guest SSID on our network. I ended up sending them a simple request letter with something like “our needs have outgrown your teams capabilities (which they actually had) and that we are planning on having 100% control over our equipment thus requesting you to terminate your services starting Xx/yy/zzzz date. Blah blah blah”. He responded with “let me know how we can improve and continue the partnership all that” and also let me know what all services he had in his scope. I thanked him and let him know the issues we genuinely faced with them and thanked for service. And that was the end of it.
I’ve also been on your side of it, and have always maintained my cool which allows me to restart any contracts with clients.
IMO, you need to take this positively, write them a simple email thanking them for their support over the last however many months and a simple list of everything you have ownership of that they will now manage. Up until termination, you will hand over all ownership of whatever you manage and that after termination, a contract will have to be signed for any continuation of services which will require a new negotiation. Key here is to not upset them even if they’re being dicks - they should be aware of this well but clearly don’t care about it and are in over their own head. Basically, don’t ruin a relationship from your end if there’s any scope of restarting with them. Maybe soon they will realize your value, maybe they will actually be able to handle their work. But no point jeopardizing a business relationship. Contracts get canceled all the time. It’s not a big deal. What is a big deal is how you react.
_AngryBadger_@reddit
But he put all his clients on one tenant so it's now a mess. He shouldn't have done that. When clients in 365 want to change MSPs they expect their tenant to just move. But now they need a whole new tenant set up and then their domains transferred. OP has been mismanaging everything and now wants to be malicious.
EEU884@reddit
I dunno as soon as somebody makes threats, especially legal ones then it triggers the seek and destroy instinct.
Z3t4@reddit
They threatened legal action. Stop direct contact and lawyer up.
sirthunksalot@reddit
Exactly
_AngryBadger_@reddit
Lol he can't hand over properly because all his clients are on one tenant. So he has to explain to them why he can't simple release their tenant to a new MSP or to them first.
_AngryBadger_@reddit
I've read the OP, and then some of the OPs comments. This guy has no idea how to run am MSP. Multiple clients hosted on one tenant? Ridiculous practice and that's why he can't jand over data easily and cleanly. Deleting data because be was asked to stop services? What the client obviously wanted ks to stop his support and management and hand over their domains and data. That stuff belongs to the company not to OP. But because he's managed it like a fool he can't so easily do that.
I'm an MSP and I support around 60 clients. Each one that uses 365 has their own tenant. I recently took over a client from an MSP like OP and it was a nightmare. An entire news tenant has to be set up, their emails had major down time because the previous person wasn't paying their Microsoft accounts. No one has passwords for anything documented.
When a clients tells me they no longer want to use my services I simply thank them for their business, let them know I'll be happy to revisit then start the process to transfer domains, tenants, VoIP and other services to wherever they want. It's shocking how many people agree with OPs unethical behaviour.
klathium@reddit
Someone doesn’t know how to spell losing.
dhaurey@reddit
— I just wanted to chime in as the owner of a Managed IT Services company (MSP) for nearly three decades. I’ve seen this exact type of scenario play out many times, and first off, I want to say: I’m sorry you’re going through this. It sounds like you provided a lot of value — especially immediate, hands-on support that’s worth more than most people realize until it’s gone.
That said, it’s important to acknowledge that new ownership absolutely has the right to choose who manages their IT. But where things get confusing is the mention of legal action — especially in a situation where, by your account, there was no contract, and everything was paid in cash. That seems disproportionate unless there’s some misunderstanding on their end about access, control, or ownership of assets like the domain, backups, etc.
I’ve found that this kind of friction usually happens in one of two situations:
Even in situations where there is a formal contract, the language matters — some agreements allow for assignment or transfer of service under new ownership, others do not. But again, in your case, no contract means it’s all a bit fuzzy.
The truth is, it’s very common in our field for new management to “kick the IT guy to the curb,” only to realize shortly after that they’ve made a critical error — especially in non-tech-savvy businesses where no one knows what a registrar is, how DNS works, or why email suddenly breaks.
You’re not alone here. And while I can’t weigh in on the legal side, I’d encourage you to document your efforts, your communications, and — most importantly — take the high road. Don’t do anything that could be construed as withholding access out of spite, but also don’t hesitate to explain the implications of abruptly halting services. If you still have access to systems that could impact the business if shut off, communicate clearly and professionally, and offer to assist with a clean transition. It’s the right thing to do, and it protects you in case this does escalate for any reason.
Lastly — for your future gigs: have a basic contract. Nothing fancy, but something in writing that outlines scope, fees, access, data ownership, and offboarding processes. It’ll protect both sides.
And to the rest of the thread: If you have someone managing your IT (internally or externally), make sure you always maintain access to full documentation and credentials. It’s a nightmare for everyone when someone walks away and you’re left locked out of your own systems.
Happy to help if you ever want to bounce ideas or need tips — you clearly care about your clients and did right by them. Best of luck.
nsgiad@reddit
Let's see, key words in bold, two numbered items for seemingly no reason, emdashes all over the place. Thanks chatgpt!
dhaurey@reddit
Wow. That's harsh. This is a tough crowd. I can assure you that my response is as well-meaning as it is genuine.
Even_Application_567@reddit
Go dark, if they come back “sorry my rate has tripled, since it’s not a discounted program, I have to charge industry standards”. Specially if they had a contract and broke it…
aprudencio@reddit
You own a business but say “loosing” instead of losing? I wouldn’t want your services either.
noocasrene@reddit
Question? Why would they lose access to email and the domain or backups? Wouldn't they own all of those? You just do administration on it, the only thing you would need to do is hand over admin passwords and change main contact and cut ties.
The only thing I can think of is if they are renting services from you like azure/aws/google and all of it was under your managed company but that really depends on how it was worded when you created the email accounts and the domain etc. Which i really think is very stupid of the business to do.
Knyghtlorde@reddit
It’s not the owner that has misunderstood, it’s you that has misunderstood.
Stop doing any work and walk away is what they mean and you know it.
Anything else is you being malicious.
dhaurey@reddit
— I just wanted to chime in as the owner of a Managed IT Services company (MSP) for nearly three decades. I’ve seen this exact type of scenario play out many times, and first off, I want to say: I’m sorry you’re going through this. It sounds like you provided a lot of value — especially immediate, hands-on support that’s worth more than most people realize until it’s gone.
That said, it’s important to acknowledge that new ownership absolutely has the right to choose who manages their IT. But where things get confusing is the mention of legal action — especially in a situation where, by your account, there was no contract and everything was paid in cash. That seems disproportionate unless there’s some misunderstanding on their end about access, control, or ownership of assets like the domain, backups, etc.
I’ve found that this kind of friction usually happens in one of two situations:
Even in situations where there is a formal contract, the language matters — some agreements allow for assignment or transfer of service under new ownership, others do not. But again, in your case, no contract means it’s all a bit fuzzy.
The truth is, it’s very common in our field for new management to “kick the IT guy to the curb,” only to realize shortly after that they’ve made a critical error — especially in non-tech-savvy businesses where no one knows what a registrar is, how DNS works, or why email suddenly breaks.
You’re not alone here. And while I can’t weigh in on the legal side, I’d encourage you to document your efforts, your communications, and — most importantly — take the high road. Don’t do anything that could be construed as withholding access out of spite, but also don’t hesitate to explain the implications of abruptly halting services. If you still have access to systems that could impact the business if shut off, communicate clearly and professionally, and offer to assist with a clean transition. It’s the right thing to do, and it protects you in case this does escalate for any reason.
Lastly — for your future gigs: have a basic contract. Nothing fancy, but something in writing that outlines scope, fees, access, data ownership, and offboarding processes. It’ll protect both sides.
And to the rest of the thread: If you have someone managing your IT (internally or externally), make sure you always maintain access to full documentation and credentials. It’s a nightmare for everyone when someone walks away and you’re left locked out of your own systems.
Happy to help if you ever want to bounce ideas or need tips — you clearly care about your clients and did right by them. Best of luck.
dhaurey@reddit
u/cantITright
— I just wanted to chime in as the owner of a Managed IT Services company (MSP) for nearly three decades. I’ve seen this exact type of scenario play out many times, and first off, I want to say: I’m sorry you’re going through this. It sounds like you provided a lot of value — especially immediate, hands-on support that’s worth more than most people realize until it’s gone.
That said, it’s important to acknowledge that new ownership absolutely has the right to choose who manages their IT. But where things get confusing is the mention of legal action — especially in a situation where, by your account, there was no contract and everything was paid in cash. That seems disproportionate unless there’s some misunderstanding on their end about access, control, or ownership of assets like the domain, backups, etc.
I’ve found that this kind of friction usually happens in one of two situations:
Even in situations where there is a formal contract, the language matters — some agreements allow for assignment or transfer of service under new ownership, others do not. But again, in your case, no contract means it’s all a bit fuzzy.
The truth is, it’s very common in our field for new management to “kick the IT guy to the curb,” only to realize shortly after that they’ve made a critical error — especially in non-tech-savvy businesses where no one knows what a registrar is, how DNS works, or why email suddenly breaks.
You’re not alone here. And while I can’t weigh in on the legal side, I’d encourage you to document your efforts, your communications, and — most importantly — take the high road. Don’t do anything that could be construed as withholding access out of spite, but also don’t hesitate to explain the implications of abruptly halting services. If you still have access to systems that could impact the business if shut off, communicate clearly and professionally, and offer to assist with a clean transition. It’s the right thing to do, and it protects you in case this does escalate for any reason.
Lastly — for your future gigs: have a basic contract. Nothing fancy, but something in writing that outlines scope, fees, access, data ownership, and offboarding processes. It’ll protect both sides.
And to the rest of the thread: If you have someone managing your IT (internally or externally), make sure you always maintain access to full documentation and credentials. It’s a nightmare for everyone when someone walks away and you’re left locked out of your own systems.
Happy to help if you ever want to bounce ideas or need tips — you clearly care about your clients and did right by them. Best of luck.
OkGroup9170@reddit
There is no duty to warn on business operational risks when there is no contract. Do not do anymore work for free other than to hand over login info.
darthgeek@reddit
Before you do anything, talk to a lawyer. You can almost always get at least 30 minutes free. The lawyer can then give you an idea on level of effort, next steps, etc and what it might cost you.
selvarin@reddit
Smooth hand-off to avoid legal issues. All licenses, accounts, etc. Wish new owner well despite threatened legal action. (Yes, talk to a lawyer just to CYA.)
kev024@reddit
You should have a contract before you start your service to them. It serves as a mutual agreement between you and your client. Without that, you don't have any legal basis.
Simple_Dragonfruit73@reddit
FWIW, I am not a sysadm. But... absolutely pull everything out. And then wait for the phone call. Triple your rates.
cantITright@reddit (OP)
He did say to stop all services immediately
Simple_Dragonfruit73@reddit
Again. Not a sysadm, but I would bet a large sum of money you will receive a distress call from the new owner within the week, if not 3 days.
Michelanvalo@reddit
If he turns off email and the website he'll get a phone call in 20 minutes and it won't be pleasant.
RoaringRiley@reddit
Not if he turns off their phone lines while he's at it.
_My_Angry_Account_@reddit
Define pleasant...
I find great pleasure in dealing with irate idiots. Then again, most people don't seek out conflict for elation.
battmain@reddit
LMAO, I think we've been in this too long, because some people forget that they are calling to you for help. And! In all their adult years, they honestly believe that we will do our utmost to help, when they are talking to us like the dog that just pissed on the carpet. Hello are you still there? ;p
shitdamntittyfuck@reddit
Have fun being civilly liable for any and all business losses incurred as a result of your actions and being charged criminally as a felony under the extremely broad Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Look up any number of cases about this situation. Literally all of the precedent and case law is against you.
"I didn't like the tone of his email, your honor" doesn't work in federal court.
CGS_Web_Designs@reddit
GET THAT IN WRITING FIRST
llamakins2014@reddit
Absolutely, cover your butts as much as possible
wrosecrans@reddit
Send out a 24h warning email to everybody that includes the clear written instruction from the boss. Explain the systems will all go away, per the below instructions from the boss, and that everybody should back up any data they need.
That way when the boss screams that this is fraud and abuse that you are doing to him, everybody in the company has already seen that you had the instructions from him in writing. If this goes to court, you want any potential witness to have seen it.
llamakins2014@reddit
Yup, this. You could also email him directly first and make a list of everything that is going to be shut off as per his instruction. If you're feeling kind maybe throw in a final question of "can you confirm that this is what you want?". Although is his plan to on board another IT company to manage things? If so, work with them to transition everything over, of not then just shut down and giver!
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
This definitely means to stop your own billable work not to cancel services they rely on. Just hand over all passwords/access and move on. They threatened legal action, so there's zero benefit in doing anything else.
The old owners didn't know how to use a PC. Maybe the new owner does.
BlueHatBrit@reddit
I'd be very careful with this interpretation. When I read it, I understood they meant to stop your work, not to cancel accounts with things like Microsoft et al.
If they just meant they want you out and to transfer all of that over, you could be in a very sticky position for assuming otherwise.
RaNdomMSPPro@reddit
Outline all the things you’re managing, simple explanation on what it is, via email and get approval to turn off in writing.
Cherveny2@reddit
Get that in writing, in case he does do something stupid and tries pulling you into court.
skyxsteel@reddit
I have a suspicion that they won't eve pay you.
Send a pro rated final bill, then leave the keys with them.
cuco_@reddit
so do it, stop everything. they will call again lol
shitdamntittyfuck@reddit
Shut the absolute fuck up. You don't know what you're talking about. There is an overwhelming amount of precedent that what you're suggesting will not only make OP civilly liable for the business losses incurred as a result of their actions, but also criminally liable under the extremely broad Computer Fraud and Abuse Act at the very least.
Shut the fuck up and go away. Don't comment here again unless you fucking know something.
BassHeadGator@reddit
This is terrible advice.
Simple_Dragonfruit73@reddit
Is it? I mean outside of IT people getting trashed on the regular, the new owner was threatening legal action anyways. Not like they have any legs to stand on, but is that still not something you would want to separate yourself from? And besides, you can't just shake the foundation of a business that quickly without knocking a few things over. The new owner is going to realize what was and wasn't important, and IT services are very important. I don't even need to be a sysadm to know that much
picklestheyellowcat@reddit
They very much do have a leg to stand on.
The data, domain and all that other stuff doesn't belong to OP and if he deleted it and stops the services he can be sued.
He should hand over everything to the business owners and call it a day.
He shouldn't destroy the companies property.
He will lose real fast
_My_Angry_Account_@reddit
Owner put in writing that OP was to stop all services immediately or be faces with legal action.
OP stopped all services. That may have included cloud storage and cloud AD services along with email.
That is what the owner wanted.
How can the owner then sue OP for doing what they told them to do?
Not seeing a legal leg to stand on there.
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
OP has shown poor use of language, and an overly emotional way of handling client relations. OP has shown that they are wholly unprofessional from the beginning, making it difficult to disentangle the customers' data for handover.
I'm confident we're getting a distorted story. The court would get the actual communication.
picklestheyellowcat@reddit
The data and services still below to the company. They don't belong to OP.
The owner also meant stop OPs services, obviously not the companies
The legal leg is that OP was performing work for the company and that company owns their data and services.
OP can't delete it or stop it. OP can hand everything over to the company and walk away
_My_Angry_Account_@reddit
I doubt that'd go anywhere if pursued legally. Might have to defend in court but shouldn't lead to more than legal defense costs.
You threaten people with legal action if they don't do something immediately and you get results like this. That isn't the fault of the person being threatened.
If the email specifically stated that all services being provided by OP are to be suspended immediately and that is what OP did, then that action is on the company for not being more specific in their requests.
Suspending services without prior actions can lead to data loss. You can't just stop cloud storage services and expect them to retain your data indefinitely in the remote chance you want to resume their services in the future.
OP could have handed over everything to the owner, but that isn't what the owner demanded.
Also, without a contract there is nothing indicating that the third party services belong to the company and not OP. For all we know, OP is hosting all that stuff himself on his own hardware and just cut all that off immediately by turning off a server. The company paying for the service doesn't mean that the server it is being hosted on or the data on that server belongs to the company. Do companies own the Microsoft cloud servers they pay monthly to access? No, they don't. If they stop paying MS for that access, is MS required to continue giving them access because stopping it will hurt their business? No, they don't.
ArSo12@reddit
They meant stop all OPs services not company services. He should stop support and stop payments for the services but not disable them or delete any data. And really get all in waiting, including him asking who should he give the passwords to.
miniature_blue_devil@reddit
Find a new job, hopefully someone at the old one doesn't randomly call one day and say "I want Lynooks cause it's free "pronounced exactly that way) we can bring you back part time
1a2b3c4d_1a2b3c4d@reddit
Threatened legal action? Full Stop. Talk to a lawyer. Do nothing else at this point. Period. Follow the advice of the lawyer.
Do not hand anything over. Do not Pass Go. Do not engage them, talk to them, or answer any calls, emails or TXTs. Do what you lawyer says.
You have been terminated, and any implied contract has been canceled. Find a good but reasonable billing rate to hand over any documentation, passwords, or other information they may need or want.
Samatic@reddit
And thats why I no longer do an IT side business.
BobRepairSvc1945@reddit
Honestly this is why people shouldn't. Back in the day you could get away with it but not in 2025. No one would go to someone who practices dentistry or heart surgery on the side.
chipredacted@reddit
Hiring a side gig IT tech vs a side gig heart surgeon are not the same levels of risk / trust lol, not really comparable
If you have the time and energy, side gigs in IT are fine if they’re contracted and scoped correctly to protect yourself.
That said, you will always be less stressed if you have a team of people behind you to help if needed. So it is a give and take.
BobRepairSvc1945@reddit
With the way security and liability is though it really is getting more similar. If you are doing your "real" job and a breach or crash happens how quickly are you really going to be able to respond? Probably not quick enough.
If you wake up and the internet is out at the side gig do you call your boss and say "I'll be a few hours late because I have to go trouble shoot at my side gig because Comcrap says it not their equipment"?
I am not saying no one can do it but most won't do it right.
Sample-Efficient@reddit
I did a side gig as volunteer for a non profit association I am member of. Won't do it again. There were 2 computers in the office and half a dozen users who would work from home. I bought a Synology, published the services, set up a reasonable backup process and gava them an introduction. But ghey wouldn't use it. Dropbox was easier - well yes, but backups? Storage limitations? Next thing was they made a deal with an MSP who had installed some APs and video surveillance in the faclility to provide a server and some services. Well, said said and done, it didn't take long and things went arkward and then they came and asked me for help. "Did you sign a contract and an SLA?". No? Ok, then your fkd. I done with amatuers resistant to advice.
halford2069@reddit
\^ this
baw3000@reddit
thirded. I'm too old for this shit.
OCAU07@reddit
RemindMe! -7 day
ParaStudent@reddit
"Licenses off, domain released, data erased."
You're going to get sued into oblivion and you deserve it"
iceemaxx5@reddit
Paperwork talks and bull poop walks!!! Lol
Should've signed a contract no matter how small.
You're going to need an affidavit signed by the previous owner stating all the stuff you used to do and if the new ownership takes you to court, be hopeful that the old owner goes to testify on your behalf.
Sit down with the new people tell them what's what and have them sign a contract. If they pass so be it and write up a nice letter stating everything they're losing without a deal in place give at least 30 day notice and then so what needs to happen...
Take it as a life lesson perhaps but I'd they do take you to court, I hope that Hou paid your taxes on what you were paid. If not know the law regarding self employment in your state and hope to God uncle Sam doesn't come asking for his cut right away....
Good luck!
Forsaken-Discount154@reddit
Bruh, just give the client their data and walk away. Even if they do not want to retain you, destroying data that does not belong to you could lead you into a very rough spot. I think the cost of a couple terabyte EXT HD's would be worth it not to have to worry about paying a lawyer down the road.
dontdoitwich@reddit
My advice is to have them submit the request to you in writing. Provide them with a report of what you are handing them, package up all passwords and urls and hand them over. Agree on a separation date and be done with it.
thenerdy@reddit
This is some of the best advice here. Make sure there's a paper trail for everything. If they can't move services elsewhere immediately then ensure that you make them aware of any fees that might come with that if there are.
bws7037@reddit
I would discuss this situation with a lawyer, but after this, always get a contract, even if it's written on a bar napkin.
lrpage1066@reddit
You give them their domain name all the passwords and access to their backups. That is their data they own it. Then you walk away. None of their accounts should be in your name or paid for by you. If so you screwed up.
RangerNS@reddit
suspend all service
Why is this even a question? You have zero responsibility for their business beyond what you offer, they want it stopped and are presumably going to stop paying you. So stop doing your thing.
r6throwaway@reddit
You put it writing clearly what is going to be affected by the request before acting on it. They may be stupid, but blindly acting is equally stupid
r6throwaway@reddit
Doesn't matter how big or small of a company it is. A verbal agreement is still an agreement and will hold in a court if that business decides to pursue you. Just hand over their information and be glad you don't have to deal with them moving forward. You can also pursue the amount they owe you, but will probably spend more trying to recoup it than what they probably owe. Quit acting childish and throwing a fit over typical business practices.
Shesays7@reddit
Mmmm. Need to consult a lawyer around if consideration is in play, lack of contract and all.
headcrap@reddit
Glad I got out of MSP and all the like.
ihavewaytoomanyminis@reddit
Personally, I'd have reached out via phone call to the new business owner (or one of his minions) and double check what they meant by suspend all services - because there's the order to "suspend all your services" or whether they actually intended me to "suspend all services" i.e. shutdown everything service related.
As to the threatened legal action, you don't have a written contract and have a verbal contract with the previous owner.
roger_ramjett@reddit
Get the request in writing with signatures.
I was the mail server admin for an ISP back in the 00's. I had what sounded like a securtary call and request to cancel their services. They had a busy website and close to 100 active email address's.
I asked that she get a letter on company letterhead signed by a directory requesting cancelling their services.
When I got the letter I commented out their dns entries on our dns server.
Sure enough a couple of hours later I got a frantic call from someone at the company about why things were no longer working. I told them I had the signed request to cancel the services. In order to re-activate the services I would need a signed letter stating that they wanted to re-activate their services.
I also told them that I had deleted all their data so they would have to re-upload their website as well as re-create all their email addresses, etc.
However I could restore everything from a backup but it would take a day to do so. Of course everything was still there, I had only disabled their dns.
A day later I re-enabled their dns and everything started working.
I always wondered what happened in the company after something like this happened.
ProfessionalITShark@reddit
bruh wtf
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
Gross.
BlackV@reddit
you starting with
implies to me they're right to look at replacing you
why would they
questions would be
we're only getting half the story here, even with that I dont think this is all on them for a "nasty interaction"
cantITright@reddit (OP)
The transition between owners has not been smooth. The guy is firing employees who have worked in this company for three decades. The documentation is clear on what is provided to the previous owner, this guy wants to do the self hosting himself. As I mentioned he probably mentioned legal action to scare me, why? Who knows I simply provide services for their small office. I am asking redditors with similar experience as this what they've done.
This is no evil plan, one side story bs. And I do consider "nasty interaction" when someone mentions legal action. Take a walk and touch grass
BlackV@reddit
I didn't see an answer to this?
you say
then you say
so there is actually more to the story ?
like that bit
if that's what they want then you can move on, as long as you've been clear to them what they're losing and why
BlackV@reddit
These 2 statements are the polar opposites
And
tooongs@reddit
I guess username checks out???
BlackV@reddit
...omg, how did it take me that long to see that
Ha, that's great name
Michelanvalo@reddit
You need a lawyer that specializes in business law, my guy. Not reddit. Working a cash only deal for this company and having the keys to their IT is a messy situation. You may or may not have legal obligations to fulfill a transfer.
Rudager6@reddit
It sounds like you’ve done your own grave already by implementing things poorly.
Even though we only have your version of the story, you still sound like the villain to any decent sysadmin.
This is not a battle you’re going to “win” so why bother?
chanarde@reddit
RemindMe! 15 days
at-the-crook@reddit
People that have no value for IT services usually get bit in the butt. But they always blame the vendor , not themselves.
atomicadonis@reddit
Fuck em, let them fail and email you back
bradwbowman@reddit
You aren’t going to give the new owners their domain name? So they have to pay you forever or they lose their domain and email?
Gadgetman_1@reddit
Hand over any backups you have, and a handover document.
That document should list all admin accounts on their systems with their passwords. If you have any 'personal' accounts, those also needs to be listed, but without passwords. Explicitly write that they need to change the listed passwords, and disable your accounts.
List ALL regular tasks you did, and how to do them. In excruciating detail.
DO NOT list or explain any recurring user support tasks. As they're taking over or transferring management of the systems to someone else, you can assume that they have someone that's at least somewhat competent.
If you manage their online presence in any way, list that, and request that they get in contact for a proper transfer of ownership.
Be Professional in getting rid of this customer. A$$holes tends to talk shit about anyone they fire. We don't want to give them any ammunition...
Why list regular maintenance in detail?
Because odds are that the owner will look through it and thing 'this is easy, I can do it'... and try to do it...
Then it takes a little longer for the flaming turds to hit the rotary atmospheric agitator. Hopefully enough time that the employees can find other jobs first...
Cyberhwk@reddit
This seems too much. Documentation is very much something customers pay for. I'll facilitate the knowledge and property transfer, but you're not going to get free job training on how to do my job after you already fired me.
Gadgetman_1@reddit
No. This is CYA.
You want them to have as few opportunities to blame you as possible when the bovine byproduct number 2 hits the rotary...
Making certain they can keep the systems running for at least half a year, or more gets you time to find a job where they will appreciate you.
Also, that kind of documentation is something every professional IT person should be constantly writing and updating as part of their daily duties. If YOU get sick, or otherwise can't perform your regular duties, how is someone else supposed to handle them in your absense?
I've worked in IT in over 30 years. I have had to take over colleagues work on short notice while they've been indisposed. Sure I can learn any system I want.(really. I'm a Jack of all trades, a master of none) But having proper documentation...
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
I have always held IT pros to a high standard because we handle people's secrets and livelihoods in our care.
This topic has really shined a light on some of the worst ethics among sysadmins. It's pretty disheartening, tbh.
BlackV@reddit
It's been a train ride for sure
abqcheeks@reddit
I wondered what you meant and the. I read the comment from roger_ramjett. Yikes
marvistamsp@reddit
If this is accurate then you did a horrible job of setting up the client. "loosing email access, loosing domain".
If the domain is in your name or control then you set them up poorly and you need to fix it. Nothing is more aggravating than a I.T. shop setting up customer domains with their registrar. Its not your domain name, it is the customers.
DaddyWolf23@reddit
Easy answer. Stop by and have a conversation with them. They likely don’t realize everything you are doing/providing. This work is all about relationships.
abqcheeks@reddit
100% this. Go with the handover folder, give it to them, then outline the things they need to take care of and how soon. The may hand the folder back and ask you to stay. Up to you if that seems wise.
Normally I would say a customer not understanding IT and making a bad decision is no big deal if they change their mind. But if they hinted at legal action before even talking to you I’d be very cautious about continuing with that kind of person.
d0kt0rg0nz0@reddit
If ya had a contract, use it to navigate further with a lawyer. If you didn't have a contract, leave them right where they are and say, "Not my problem anymore."
Rawme9@reddit
No contract? Do what they say, suspend all services give them the keys and move along.
If they ask any further questions, they are no longer your client but you are happy to give them your rates (which have conveniently doubled)
shrekerecker97@reddit
Lesson learned. Always, always, always have a contract.
I learned that early on the hard way as well, but luckily it didn't cost me a ton of money.
Dereksversion@reddit
Coming from an Msp I would say burn no bridge.
But going straight to legal action seem suspicious Either you WERE charging more than is reasonable for the overall time spent. Or these people are batshit crazy. Or the old owners were using your invoices to cook the books in some way and they think you’re in on it
In all those situations just Send them your info handoff and offer no assistance to implement the changes without payment UP FRONT.
And pay the money to have a lawyer draft up a disengagement agreement they have to sign saying you’ve spun down and they don’t want your assistance
l0st1nP4r4d1ce@reddit
If there is no contract, consider it a dodged bullet. You don't need that kind of drama in your life.
And when they call you to solve the problems they have created, the rate increases dramatically.
ExceptionEX@reddit
My question is, why would they loose any thing until something went wrong, have you ethically set them up? I.E. their tenant should be in their name, they should have access to it, etc...
Also doing all of this without a contract seems foolish for both you and the other company, and if I purchased a company and found its IT services were dependent to this level on a single provider without even a basic contract in place I would likely cut it off myself.
Threatening legal action is always stupid though, do it or don't, but a threat from anyone but legal counsel is just bullshit.
flunky_the_majestic@reddit
OP has responded elsewhere effectively saying they comingled tenants for their customers' services, and they're shocked that any freelancer would have the discipline to keep their clients' accounts separate.
ExceptionEX@reddit
Thanks for the heads up, and oh wow man some people shouldn't be in this business.
unixux@reddit
It’s always both a legal matter and a business one. Ideally, if you have a lawyer who is also a friend you can get better advice then from a random lawyer who doesn’t know anything about technology, you or the client. If that’s not an option consider realistically how much of their revenue depends on your infrastructure. That number will heavily influence your options that may vary from full compliance with even unreasonable requests to a hardball “talk to my lawyer” approach in every scenario. You’ll need to walk a very , very fine line between disclaiming responsibility and committing extortion which is why it’s super important to have everything in writing, including notes on incoming calls and VMs.
BlazeReborn@reddit
New owner don't want to pay you, not your problem.
He regrets it, you come back charging double the rate. Problem solved.
mrrichiet@reddit
Crikey. I'm not surprised OP has gone quiet.
cantITright@reddit (OP)
270 comments. Can't read them all fast enough. I said I'd give an update on the original post too
mrrichiet@reddit
Nice one, I look forward to it. I hope the guy who talked about cloud storage being a service was on the money!
caa_admin@reddit
Move on.
Only you can decide if you want to do business with a myopic asshole.
thejohnmcduffie@reddit
Contract/agreement trumps new owners head in butt notions.
Lagkiller@reddit
There is no answer here that is correct. The answer you need is from a lawyer. If they're threatening legal action, then you need them for that. The rest of it is simply there to say what you should and shouldn't do because you have no contract in place.
Hire a lawyer.
chuckaholic@reddit
Obviously you should suspend all services. Document everything. Block their number.
disinaccurate@reddit
You make like Wesley and say, "as you wish."
saysjuan@reddit
It’s no longer your issue. Just move on and cut off all contact especially if they threatened legal action. If you had no signed contract then you’re not responsible for anything going further. Block their number and move on it’s someone else’s problem.
xftwitch@reddit
This is why you never set up anything in your name. It should all be on their payment (credit cards) and use their email addresses. Not yours.
If you didn't do that...
Any accounts in your name, should have the password changed to random characters, and be sent to the new owner. If your credit card is attached to ANY services it should be removed. Your email address should be removed from any of these accounts and changed to someone at the businesses address.
Once this is done, you should not reply to ANY communication with the new owner. He's already threatened litigation once, he'll do so again. Any conversation you have with them can and will be used as leverage.
Dave_A480@reddit
No contract?
A bit of a legal mess when it comes to things like who owns the backups, domain, software licenses, and so on...
ALWAYS have a contract for stuff like this. Even if it's just something from LegalZoom.
silentdon@reddit
I have questions. Did they mean they wanted to suspend your services or suspend the services that you managed? Because one means that you just walk away and let them manage it themselves, the other means you take action to suspend licenses, turn off services, etc.
If you did the former, you fucked up. If you did the latter, you still fucked up but probably not as much.
gurilagarden@reddit
I'd call him up and discuss it.
Fabulous-Farmer7474@reddit
Enter every work engagement knowing how you would leave that engagement.
The new guy sounds like the typical "I'm taking over and getting everything in to shape" kinda guy who has no idea what the consequences will be.
If they aren't paying you as of now, and your service was provide things like email services, then you could just let him learn the hard way by going "okay, services ended effective immediately"
For me I would document everything being provided and the consequence of terminating the service. You are well within your rights of "suspending" mail services especially if you are coming out of your own wallet.
Even the most clueless person would first figure out what it is a provider is doing for them before pulling the plug. Sounds like a class A jerk.
Bromeo1337@reddit
Do as they say and nicely bow your way out.... let their business implode and come crawling back to you and give you the respect and wage you deserve.
If you try and convince or plead with them, they'll think YOU need them
KickedAbyss@reddit
Give him a call and offer to take him out for lunch to discuss it with him.
As long as you weren't gouging on prices, bring example contracts of ones you've done or market rates for MSP work, explain that you're above board just trying to help a small business out, and if he truly doesn't need your services then have a price in mind for off boarding those services.
I'm curious how this goes, good luck to you.
P.s. Always, always have some sort of contract, scope of work, or work order for anything over a single person. Even a single person unless they're family or close friends I'd be wary not having something written up for CYA purposes.
Chatgpt can help make something good for you.
RCTID1975@reddit
Nah. This isn't a client you want anyway. Do a hand off and move on
RCTID1975@reddit
Yes. Do what they want. They're the client. It's not your job to argue with them or make decisions on what you feel is best.
Transfer everything out to them, give them the passwords, and move on with your life.
Hefty-Possibility625@reddit
Hire. A. Lawyer.
jooooooohn@reddit
List services and their effective end date, what will break if not replaced by an equivalent. Walk across the street and watch the fire. Don't forget your popcorn.
Humble-Plankton2217@reddit
*Losing
davew111@reddit
Give him the key details he needs to renew the domain, 365 licenses, backup and antivirus software etc. Keep copies of all correspondence. He sounds like the type who would threaten more lawsuits when he lets his domain name expire 6 months from now.
tekno45@reddit
get a lawyer. always have a contract.
HLKturbo@reddit
mom and pops service businesses thinking is cool to NOT have contracts at all until they get a$$ bitten and sued...
ScrubscJourney@reddit
Let them crash and burn and come crawling back. Or they'll go somewhere else and get charged more.
Kahless_2K@reddit
I am so looking forward to your followup posts on this bag of wet cats......
bamaknight@reddit
Just saying ok and when it blows up on them. Charge him double what you are charging and have a contract made up cause people like that will expect you to cover everything and want you to pay for it.
itmgr2024@reddit
As others have said. Get a lawyer ASAP. You should have had a services agreeemnt signed always, just for reasons like this. Be as professional as possible, let them know what they need to do to take it over/transfer it to someone else. You can’t stop someone from being an asshole. They may even realize their mistake and try to keep you (if you still would consider working with them.)
ohv_@reddit
A lot of my gigs are non contract. If they cancel they cancel. I still get paid for the work completed.
I had everything over and move on. No point.
If they ask questions or need help well that all depends on my day and rate.
a60v@reddit
I am not a lawyer, but OP probably should get one.
I would probably send a certified letter confirming that you will no longer be providing services, and request that the business provide the name of someone to whom you should transfer all passwords and account information within some reasonable time (60 days?). If they provide that, then you give that person the information requested and make him the registered contact person for any third-party services.
techw1z@reddit
malicious compliance
scoshi@reddit
Amendment, the client, implied potential legal action, your course was set: You need to find a lawyer to protect yourself as this new owner cannot be trusted.
jcaraveobjj@reddit
Do exactly what the new owner and let chaos ensue 🤷🏽♂️
tech2but1@reddit
Most/all replies seem to assume the new owners want or care about any of this. They may have just bought the company for the physical assets and nothing more. They may just be cancelling all services from any/every vendor and firing all the staff.
downundarob@reddit
That doesn't make any of the advice I've seen so far in this thread any less relevant.
tech2but1@reddit
It does though, in the context of this thread.
downundarob@reddit
OP should still act in a professional manner, and hand over the keys, what the new owner is planning to do with that information is irrelevant.
tech2but1@reddit
Yeah totes. Wasn't suggesting OP should act unprofessionally. Customer says shut it all down, OP should just shut it down. Simple.
ArdentChad@reddit
Previous owners didn't know how to use computers, the new owners apparently do.
linkdudesmash@reddit
I just suggest you list out the services you provide. And write it big letters you will Loss access to this… and if they say canceled. The hell with them.
mrmugabi@reddit
What legal action did he threaten exactly? If you have no contract, then you have not breached any agreement terms.
I would have over the keys to everything. Turn of the reminder for godaddy DNS renewal and call it a day.
mrmugabi@reddit
ok maybe the DNS renewal reminder was a bit 'EXTRA' and you should not follow that part of the advise LOL
FabulousFig1174@reddit
So you didn’t have a contract. Well, pull your services per written instructions from new management. They want you out of their environment so do as they demand. When they realize how screwed they are, be sure to get a signed contract with your higher current rates.
ProfessionalEven296@reddit
A few years ago, we had a long-term client get their heads turned by a "marketing expert" who was going to develop a superduper new website for them with great rankings (we already had them at number 1 for important short-tail keywords...)
We let them go, and made the transition easy for them - but also refused to work for them on the few occasions that they called us with questions.
A few weeks ago they called us. The CEO had been fired, few of their internal systems were working, and their new improved website... Had never been built.
Yes. We're helping them recover; with contracts, and at a much higher rate. New (old) company is out, and we're now flavor of the month again. No lawyers used or threatened at any point, though; for us that's a huge red flag, and we would have walked straight to our own attorney.
Cowboy_Corruption@reddit
Son, you done fucked up as my daddy used to say. No contract, no legally binding instrument? Yeah, you just need to kowtow to the new owners, hand over everything you have with as clear-as-glass instructions and descriptions as possible, then disappear into the general populace and pray they forget all about you.
Abydost@reddit
RemindMe! 10 days
QuimaxW@reddit
"Small side gig, paid cash." Hand over any keys and password they need and walk away.
A reply as simple as, "I'm grateful for the opportunities in the past to help out your company. See {wherever the document is} for all pertinent information about your infrastructure. Have a good day!"
When I had one of these side-gigs, I put all admin stuff and documentation in a printed folder on-site. If it changed, I'd print it out on one of their printers and they'd take it and stuff it into the folder. When the day came for us to part ways, they were able to give this folder to their new MSP and easily carry on.
bindermichi@reddit
Confirm their service termination in writing. List all suspended services and set a termination date.
Be polite.
nut-sack@reddit
This seems like the best idea. No need to go into details of all tasks performed, fuck all that. List the basic services you provided, and the date that things get shut down. Have them sign it and send it back.
When that day comes, dont delete anything, just turn it off and wait.
Debonaircow88@reddit
Someone else said it on reddit so I can't take credit but "the best way to combat a dumb rule is to follow it"
Do exactly what they ask for so when they lose everything it's sorry you asked for this.
k12pcb@reddit
If you have no contract just cease their services. They will soon understand
gadget850@reddit
No contract, and legal action threatened? This is not admin territory, you need r/legaladvice
randalzy@reddit
Once they use the "threatened legal action" card, the right move is to get legal advice, ideally from someone that knows a bit about IT or have the meanings to translate IT - Legalesse.
Specially because there are many countries, with many laws, and some countries have different laws in different administration levels, and 90% of people here is assuming "USA" but maybe you are of the rare "not-in-USA" species and their legal advice is pure shit on your country/continent/province/state/moon.
For the IT part, it would be fine to start looking at documentation, inventory, and what stuff is ok to give and what is not, or if you are paying something or have some access to payment/renwals/etc...
Also consider their point of view: "yeah we have one dude the old owners knew that manages computers and stuff and charges us xxx money and there is no contract or anything"
I'd prepare the "keys of the kingdom" email package
ARobertNotABob@reddit
Accept it, forget it and move on. Either they'll learn the hard way or they'll come scurring back or they won't, but it is their decision.
Open_Importance_3364@reddit
If there's no contract, there's no legal action either. Hold onto documented previous mail correspondence with previous owner/client for a while.
greenie4242@reddit
Disturbingly, nobody yet has suggested confirming the email was in fact legitimate.
Make sure the email did in fact come from somebody with authority at the company before doing anything. Was the company even sold to new owners, or is a potential competitor just trying to mess with them?
I've received calls and emails claiming to be from people at a company that turned out to have been spoofed by disgruntled ex-workers or competitors, or just random scam artists demanding I send a document containing all log-in passwords and granting full access and threatening legal action if I didn't comply. Basic social engineering, but sadly it appears many SysAdmins commenting here would fall for it.
Be sure to perform your own 2FA.
oki_toranga@reddit
Sounds like the perfect consensual "blackmail" scenario. Give em what they want, shut it off and be ready for a renegotiation call. Timing is crucial. Have a contract ready or at least some kind of service agreement of basic stuff. Stipulate that everything else is an emergency situation it's usually an agreed fee and hours paid even if you have to work em or not to fix the problem. This protects you from whatever nonsense they want you to do later. In my experience these users wake up everyday choosing violence, it is the only thing they understand, written agreements, contracts in black and white.
Ambitious-Yak1326@reddit
The new owners might not even care about the business. They could’ve bought it to eliminate a competitor, flip the place for the profit or something else. From the sounds of them not caring it feels like they’re going around eliminating costs
DrunkyMcStumbles@reddit
The second someone talks legal action, you find a lawyer. You aren't talking to someone who wants to deal in good faith.
Also, take the lesson and always have a contract.
Sn4what@reddit
I would email them that if you cancel this service, this is what you will lose (include every detail they will lose by not keeping you).
advice them that you are paid until (insert date). they can retain you for 7 more days as a transition period where you won’t charge them for handing over the “keys to the kingdom”.
Then ask at the end of the email for them to reply with their decisions. Do not take any actions without it in writing via email.
If you felt uneasy about that new owner then advise they can’t retain the same ‘grandfathered price’ for future services. So you can ask for more money if they want you back.
drjammus@reddit
No contracts? Do what the owner says. Make sure what he says is IN WRITING.
ophydian210@reddit
Hard to believe people like this exist. 10 yrs ago? Maybe. Today, no way.
ophydian210@reddit
What him crash and burn. He obviously knows more than you so let him prove it.
Ummgh23@reddit
Do it. It'll be fun to watch the guy scramble while everything burns. Then you can make him sign a new contract with even higher rates :)
JulesInvader@reddit
Since he's drawing the wrong conclusions out of ignorance, I'd say it's best to clarify this sort of thing face-to-face or at least over the phone. Politely inform him that he might not be clear about your services and that you want to ensure the company doesn't suffer any damage and that he makes the right decision. If he's not understanding or genuinely doesn't need it, at least you've tried.
Enough_Cauliflower69@reddit
Lol move away immediately, suspend everything and only communicate in writing from now on. Let them suffer and move on. What a dick move holy shit.
SikhGamer@reddit
Okay, OP. Nice try.
MandrakeCS@reddit
Give them full access to all the services they’re supposed to have with a proof of delivery (mail). Don’t bother giving them documentation they don’t already have, you’re not required to.
If you’re paying for any services out of your own pocket, send them a mail or email with a proof of delivery like:
“Payment for the following services will stop on xx/xx/xxxx: -list services. Please make sure to update the payment method for these with the access i gave you in the mail "Account access services" from the xx/xx/xxxx.”
And most importantly, don’t help them, you’re not required to do that either.
The only thing you can’t do is block their access or cut off services they already have. That'll be considered malicious intent and will get you into legal trouble.
Proof of delivery is key here, he’s already threatened legal action for nothing, so make sure you protect yourself as you walk away. Let them struggle, if they ever come back asking to work with you again, it’s entirely up to you. But imo if you do agree, make sure there’s a proper contract and that you charge a lot more. Personally, I can’t bear dealing with this kind of morons.
violet-lynx@reddit
Be careful with the domain. If it is registered to them (owner contact), you have to make sure to offer to transfer the domain and give them ample time for it.
If it is registered to you, offer the same. Most registries have strict rules for this to providers, and even if you are the Owner with the registry, you open yourself to a damage lawsuit if you cancel the domain and someone else takes it.
CraigAT@reddit
The new owners just want to take back control, which is their right. Accept that your side gig is over - if you haven't already, accepting this will make the rest a lot easier.
Open a dialogue with the new owners, and hand over the keys to their kingdom - any credentials you know of, product keys or licensing details. Before the meeting, document any processes or deadlines that they may need to know about - renewal dates for contracts, licenses, certificates; who to contact and how to go about updating them. Have a short-term list of things that need looking at in the next month or two, and a list of the longer term ones with approximate dates they need to looked at by (build in any ordering time).
If I was you, treat this as if the new owners are planning to come after you for causing harm to their business by not telling them everything. Hand over all the info you can buy email, so there is a digital record of what you sent, which if necessary you can hold up as proof - and even if you forget something, you can demonstrate how much you did put together and document for them.
If you think of anything later just forward it on asap. Do not think of screwing the new owners over, no matter how much you dislike them or their methods.
senolsun@reddit
If it was a cash only side gig, I hope you at least invoiced them properly. Otherwise they’ll probably tell IRA about this to get you audited for taxes; and they’ll probably claim even more shit
Playful_Tie_5323@reddit
!remindme 7 days
JustSomeGuyFromIT@reddit
I would send the "new owner" an e-mail detailing what you took care off and what his decision may result in. After that it's completely on him what happens next.
stromm@reddit
In the US at least, remember none of their physical media and digital data is yours. Even if they stop payment for service.
That means all their backups and tapes/disks/discs, all their license information, all their emails, all their offsite data, etc. Account/service IDs and passwords too.
God I hope you didn’t use YOUR name or email for anything too.
You don’t have to provide documentation on how to access or use it. But you do have to give it back.
FarToe1@reddit
Presumably the new owners have their own IT systems and support.
Whatever, it's clear that's not going to be your problem any more so comply and move on.
halford2069@reddit
sounds like the typical on the side or even just normal SMB type.
have experienced many of them!
my last client of this type -> all their backup devices (despite all advice just a pair of usb hard disks) have broken and they refuse to upgrade them.
once i'm rid of them thatll be the end of IT support for me :)
djgizmo@reddit
lulz. always get a contract.
MeatSuzuki@reddit
Hello x,
Thank you for you email/call earlier, as per your request I will pull all charged services at EOD \^date\^. Please note in doing so you may find access to xyz system/s will no longer be possible as they are part of your paid service.
Should you reconsider please don't hesitate to reach at to me at \^email\^ or \^phone\^.
Kind regards,
cantITright@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the template. I will use this for sure
ninjaluvr@reddit
I would be real careful before you do that. You're getting some really terrible advice there. Those are company assets. You'll need to turn over the passwords and accounts to the company or you're going to spend a lot of money on lawyers and a lot of time in court. There are tons of court cases regarding this. Be very careful. Your best bet is to turn over everything to them and walk away.
Michelanvalo@reddit
They might not be given how informal this whole thing is. What if the email, website, etc are all registered to OP? OP would have to elaborate here on who things are registered under but if he's working a cash only deal for someone who doesn't know computers I bet dollars to donuts that he registered everything for himself.
ninjaluvr@reddit
That doesn't matter. You think a judge is going to believe they were for his personal use and enjoyment? They're company domains, email accounts, and backups. OP will need to turn over the access and transition the accounts to the company.
Or OP is going to start spending a lot of time with lawyers.
kirashi3@reddit
Depends entirely on OPs jurisdiction. In many places, whomever "registered" a given digital asset is the legal owner until account information is formally updated, regardless of who is using it. This is how many a business have lost their domain name, and thus access to their entire email system, all because Johnny the business owner's nephew registered everything for some under the table cash.
Michelanvalo@reddit
I already recommended to OP they get a business law lawyer to tell him what his local regulations are.
However, I have seen instances where a 3rd party retained ownership over some system a business used and were shit out of luck when the 3rd party deleted/turn it off because they simply didn't own it, even if they were using it.
If OP owns the M365 tenant, for example, it doesn't matter who is using it, he owns it.
But again, this is why you consult a lawyer.
MeatSuzuki@reddit
No worries - I'd suggest adding more about how it's been a great working with them, and you wish them the best for the future. The basic premise here is to show that there are no hard feelings and you’re open to maintaining a professional relationship in the future. When/if they see the error of their ways, they should feel comfortable contacting you for help. To that end, do not give them free support. Advise your rates and services upfront and ALWAYS have it confirmed in writing. One thing I used to do poorly was expect them to “put it in writing” at the end of a voice comm, they rarely do. It’s in your interest to write an email to them with a summary of what was spoken about with any action items for both parties and always keep it professional. Remember: soft skills pay the bills.
Hoosier_Farmer_@reddit
get off-boarding contingency plan agreed, paid (escrow if considerable), and paid up front.
BigBobFro@reddit
Cue malicious compliance.
Full stop. Cut and sever. Dude will smoke himself hard.
When he does call, bump rates up by either 10% or whatever inflation since you started doing that work (10y–> 2%/y —-> 20% increase in rate). Which ever is higher.
If other employees reach out to you,.. make sure they know why you do what you do.
zer04ll@reddit
You go no contact and support nothing, if they reach out to you for help then the price is now double maybe triple with a lawyer involved making the contract. Done it a couple times when new owners buys a company that was profitable and working but wants to squeeze every penny.
I made a video once for a client showing then how to do something because they were so stupid and couldn't read and had to have videos. Well 2 years after that and after firing the client who got a new owner, he sent an email about how he is going to sue because he doesnt know the password and Im on video saying use the documented password and they cant log in. I replied with my lawyers email address. A couple months go by and my lawyer hits me up telling me they will pay x amount. I fired that client because the new owner was a POS so I told my lawyer to tell them its triple now. Well they agreed, then I made him pay before any work would be done since I was using a lawyer and didnt trust him, I told him that the payment would go through my lawyer. Easiest 6k I have ever made, took me 10 minutes to remedy and the look on his face when I left after 10 min and it cost him 6k was freaking priceless. He knew he had 0 chance going after a lawyer who sent them a bill they agreed to pay.
The only reason he had to go through me was they were a cheap ass company using legacy systems that new techs just didnt know or refused to work on.
Euphoric_Eye_2984@reddit
r/msp
HitAltF4@reddit
!remindme 7 days
ZestycloseStorage4@reddit
!remindme 7 days
pittyh@reddit
Who pays for the hosting, Where are the backups stored?
You say you maintain things, not actually host them.
Give them the passwords and move on imo.
bikerfriend@reddit
He has terminated services. Send him an email and a registered letter acknowledging receipt of his email. You are now in the clear be ready with a rate cod to work with his next tech team.
Brett707@reddit
I would simple hand over any documentation I had and passwords then log out of anything and No longer talk his calls.
JamesLeeNZ@reddit
I was gonna say you dont want a client like this, but you probably do since they are clearly stupid af and will need your help.
Rates just went up.
drnick5@reddit
As soon as I read "The company owners changed" I knew where this was going. Not much you can do, they just bought a business, and are likely looking to "trim fat" where they can to make the company as profitable as possible.
Unfortunately they may not realize what they are actually asking. Hell, it sounds like they don't even understand what your "high fees" are giving them. I'd have asked to set up a meeting with the new owners as soon as you found out the business was sold. But it sounds like you're well past that, so all you can do is take the high road.
I'd send an email confirming the decision to cancel all services with a very brief description of what that entails. Something like "This email is a confirmation that on X date, all services will be terminated, this includes, but is not limited to, disabling company email, removing access to Microsoft Office, dismantling system and data backups, insert whatever other services may be critical to them, etc. and any priority support and guaranteed response times. Your new IT provider should get these services restored as quickly as possible." This is important to cover your ass. If you just silently agree and turn it all off, they'll probably come screaming 5 minutes later that you purposely destroyed their business.
Along with the email, send an encrypted document containing any and all passwords to whatever accounts their company owns. Then wash your hands of it. In the future, if/when they come around asking questions, either tell them you're all set, or agree to help once they've signed your consulting agreement. (don't answer any questions until you actually get something signed, agreeing to your rate structure)
Take a retainer in advance for $X to cover Y hours. If they call, email, teams chat, text, etc. Track your time in 15 minute increments, and take it off the retainer. When it runs out, fi they need more help, let them know they need to reup the retainer. Rinse and repeat until they stop calling, or until they realized they screwed up and try to hire you back.
Tombo72@reddit
Just be the better person and give them what is theirs. It’s just not worth it in the end. I provide my clients with “the keys to the kingdom” quarterly because some day, I will be not there and I am not about to cripple a business and ruin the livelihood of the employees; it’s not their fault if the reason for the separation is not amicable. YMMV.
Nik_Tesla@reddit
So, are the services, like the domain registration, email hosting, backups, etc... under your name and your payment?
There's a difference between no longer supporting those services and letting them lapse because it's no longer your responsibility, and being the owner of it and turning it off.
If they were already threatening legal action over your rates, then you can bet your ass they'll sue you over "intentionally destroying the business" even when they were the ones who told you to do it.
You should at least offer to transfer services over to them, and keep a record of that.
ML00k3r@reddit
Like, this new owner and previous owner(s) would have gone over this when reviewing the business operation costs and expenses. If anything they should be going after the previous owner if they felt like OPs service was misrepresented.
Just give the keys to the kingdom to the new owner and walk away. If they reach out for support that's when you cash in with an legal contract.
mohammadmosaed@reddit
You don’t own him for what you have done and get paid, but even threatening him to make him lose his business information or emails would have legal consequences, due to obvious harm to business/personal property. Try to talk with him and explain why he pays and for what.
BeanBagKing@reddit
I would say that whatever you do, you still need to get a lawyer. Do your best to be helpful and keep services running, keep exact records of what has changed hands, when, and how much work you've done. Even if you hand over everything and they seem happen now though, something might crash in a month or a year and they come back around. A lawyer can help you with something like a contract stating that the relationship has ended, you have turned over absolutely everything you possibly can, and the customer is on their own. A clean and legal break. They might even be able to help you recover the cost of the changeover.
Ok_Conclusion5966@reddit
you get it in writing, get final payoff and do it
charge 5x as much to restore services, let them sweat
CaptainZhon@reddit
Guess when their email stops working they will be calling demanding you fix it for free
Financial_Shame4902@reddit
Been there, got the t-shirt. If ever there will be a call from this client after you've handed over all admin passwords, uninstalled agents and remote access, please do respond kindly and double your hourly rate.
They do not value you or your work product and do not discount your own value.
We all make mistakes and in IT we all do, but don't beat yourself up about it.
Bordone69@reddit
RemindMe! -7 Days
800oz_gorilla@reddit
Threatened legal action. That right there puts this request for advice in another place: your lawyer's office.
But if you hadn't said that...I'd say:
New owner? Past experience tells me that when someone buys a company, they have a plan to make more money than what the business is currently worth. They're either growing, clearing house and cutting costs, selling assets, or merging to take the best parts they want for the parent company.
If the new ownership is coming in swinging like this, walk away. If they want you back, the only condition I would accept is a contract with a retainer up front with the stated goal of providing support and documentation during your offboarding period of x days/weeks/months.
Keep everything in writing, including any accusations/threats/promises.
LeBalafre@reddit
Thanks for sharing and sorry you're going through this. Just out of curiosity (and also to understand), how exactly is the system set up?
What parts are under your control that would impact their domain, email, or backups if your services are stopped? For example, are the domain name and DNS records under your own registrar account? Are the emails hosted somewhere that you manage? And are the backups stored on systems you own or lease?
Like others said, it’s probably best to hand over all credentials, remove your access, wipe any business data from your personal devices, and move on. No contract means you’ve got limited recourse anyway, but it also means you shouldn't be liable once you clearly step out.
Would love to hear more about how their systems are wired, especially if you built them to be dependent on your stack.
Helpjuice@reddit
You are only responsible to provide them with their data, and access to all of their accounts. This should be for a reasonable amount of time and be self-managed for them to pull down. You should then confirm you no longer have access to their systems and services and have the client confirm so you can delete all of their data from your systems so you are not retaining data for non-active customers except their contact information, billing info and history.
In terms of legal action, legal action for what?
cantITright@reddit (OP)
Will probably do that and give them a two week period to transfer their domain to their new hosting provider. Not sure they will be able to do it, or set up everything else.
I have no idea, I think he added that to scare me off.
ncc74656m@reddit
Remember, don't offer free advice here either. Figure out how to securely provide logins, notify them that they need to transfer all billing prior to X date, and functionally write them off. You only help them do it if they're paying for that help, and don't remind them "You have to renew your domain every year" or anything. Let them live and learn.
Helpjuice@reddit
This is not a you problem anymore. They are in self-managed hosting mode now. You just provide the hardware and data until they are offloaded or reach the offload timeframe limit.
Make sure everything you do with them is in writing from now on, no phone calls or any other medium but email for legal reasons.
Far_Upstairs_5901@reddit
We are trying to make this easy for everyone to get a contract in place! counsel club
josephowens42@reddit
Do you have a contract? If so enforce it to the letter!
cantITright@reddit (OP)
No contract for this small gig, paid cash. I don't really intend to keep working for this individual
josephowens42@reddit
Ouch, I don’t blame you.
ITBurn-out@reddit
The company should own all the services. Offer them to transfer to direct for MS and call it a day. Get their response in writing.
RyanLewis2010@reddit
This is more of a /r/msp post but be careful depending on how your contract is worded they can own everything or COULD sue for everything if you withhold services or hold the domains etc hostage. Their lawyer bank will be much larger than yours.
Obviously NAL
r0ndr4s@reddit
No contract. So nothing happens here.
r0ndr4s@reddit
There is no contract so literally pull the plug. If they try to sue you, you literally have them saying to do it and threatening you with legal action otherwise.
So its a win-win scenario for you.
And dont do anything with companies without something signed and next time try to cover your baxk in situations like this in said contract.
Bourne069@reddit
And his is why you have them sign a contract no matter what size they are...
jordankothe9@reddit
Call, Email, certified mail that you are willing to hand over the "keys" and offer to spend whatever time it takes to setup billing so no vendor services are suspended due to none payment. Charge a fee or require your monthly fee to complete the handover.
If they do not respond or refuse to pay, stop paying for licenses etc, but do not actively disable accounts etc.
If they handle billing themselves with their own business card etc, offer to hand over the keys at no charge, but don't spend more time than it takes to put everything together.
You do not want to be on the hook for damages/lost time.
digitaltransmutation@reddit
what does your service agreement say you can do?
only do that