Question about logging cross country time

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Odd_Entertainment471@reddit

And unless you’re getting instruction from one of those passengers you are “solo”. And PiC. And XC.

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dmspilot00@reddit

You didn't tell us where you're starting from. It matters.

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tomdarch@reddit

Given the plain reading of the reg and the subsequent LOIs from the FAA lawyers, why do you think the starting point matters?

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yellowstone10@reddit

Suppose I take off from KABC and fly 40 nautical miles west to KDEF and land - then I fly 80 nautical miles east to KGHI and land - then I fly 40 more nautical miles west back to KABC and tie up.

I cannot log KABC > KDEF > KGHI > KABC as cross-country, because at no point was I more than 50 NM from KABC, my original point of departure. However, I can log KABC > KDEF as one non-XC flight, then KDEF > KGHI > KABC as a second, XC flight.

And if I had started my triangle from KDEF and flown KDEF > KGHI > KABC > KDEF, then because KGHI is more than 50 NM from KDEF, the entire route is cross-country. So the order of the legs can, in some cases, determine whether the flight is cross-country.

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tomdarch@reddit

The Van Zanen LOI confirms what you describe for the DEF > GHI > ABC as ok to log

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dmspilot00@reddit

Because it does. You have to land at least 50nm from the original point of departure. Having one 50nm leg is not sufficient, nor is it even required, as you can land and take off every miles for 50 miles. Some of the other answers are wrong.

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tomdarch@reddit

From the Van Zanen LOI where the scenario is A to B less than 50nm, B to C more than 50nm, C to A less than 50nm:

Section 61.1 (b )(3)(ii) requires that a flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure. As you correctly state in your letter, the definition does not require that any one leg of the flight be 50 nm but only that "at least one leg of the cross-country flight, however long by itself, must include a point of landing that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure" of the flight. Legal Interpretation to E. Thomas Sisk (Mar. 18, 2008); see also Legal Interpretation to Alfred Tenuta, Jr. (Apr. 17, 1998). These interpretations allow a pilot to string together multiple legs to log a single cross-country flight. However, there is nothing in§ 6I.l(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA 2 interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that flight time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Accordingly, the pilot may log the flight from Airport A to Airport B as one flight (not logging cross-country time) and the flight from Airport B to Airport C to Airport A as a separate flight (logging cross-country time).

(Emphasis mine)

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dmspilot00@reddit

What point are you trying to make? Yes, you can choose to "start" the XC portion of the flight from a different location, but then the flight prior is not XC time.

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unbelver@reddit

Cross-country is any flight where you land at a different airport you took off from (61.1.c)

Cross-country for logging time for training is landing at an airport more than 50 NM away. (61.1.c.d.ii) There is one aiport in your loop that is 50 NM straight-line away from your origination airport. You can log the whole flight if you include an aiport 50 NM away.

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tomdarch@reddit

(Asterisk: for ATP XC hours requirements you don’t need to land. Which is weird but whatever.)

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yellowstone10@reddit

It's to accommodate military pilots who want to use their time to qualify for an ATP certificate once they leave the service. If a B-2 pilot, for example, flew from Missouri out to Baghdad and back on a 40-hour round trip, but didn't land in Iraq for fairly obvious reasons, the FAA figured that should still count.

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ljthefa@reddit

This was helpful for me when I worked aerial survey. I commonly took off, got on site and worked until my tanks needed to be refilled. Went back to the original airport and filled up because it was the only airport around.

If the atp cross country rule didn't exist I might still be putzing around for hours.

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unbelver@reddit

I used to joke about that for the Rutan and Yaeger Voyager flight. "Good thing they already had their commercial certs!"

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JSTootell@reddit

Traffic passing me is just life in a 150 😭

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Bunslow@reddit

has to be 50 NM from the point of departure, which is DIFFERENT from "so long as any leg is 50 NM". i lost an hour of XC by failing to note the difference between these two things.

it's from the point of departure. so long as any one stop is 50 NM from the point of departure, the whole log entry counts as XC.

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MikeOfAllPeople@reddit

This is so easy to fix though.

Let's say you take off and go west for 10 miles, then take off again and go East for 50, then go home. You're right, the whole flight can no longer count. But what you could do is log the first 10 mile leg as one flight, then log the second two legs as a separate flight that will then be XC.

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Bunslow@reddit

in my situation, it was a combo of 1) being a student solo 2) being denied by the planned-and-endorsed airport at 55NM distance (i coulda argued but teh last thing i wanted to do as a student was argue, even if i was technically right) 3) i was close to sunset anyways just wanted to get home and worry about XC time some other day, i didn't need it for anything at the time

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MikeOfAllPeople@reddit

Ah good points. If you didn't actually land it's hard to justify splitting the flight into two.

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

Thank you very much!

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Rightrudderbandit@reddit

FAR 61.1. Just needs to be >50nm from your point of departure

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_toodamnparanoid_@reddit

Also it can be logged as just one flight on one line. There was a letter of interpretation a while back that said a "flight" for logging could span the change of a day (I think it was about a long XC with multiple stops/approaches).

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iwantmoregaming@reddit

As a tip for you down the road: make a note of any flights you take that go over 50 NM from your departure airport, even if you don’t land because that time can be used to satisfy XC requirements for your ATP.

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butterpig@reddit

Only counts if you grab bbq from hard 8 at KSEP

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

Ok so about this topic lol, if I full stop at KSEP (bottom airport/first destination) for about an hour then pick up the rest of the flight, can I still log this time as XC time??

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butterpig@reddit

https://www.faa.gov/media/14751

Yessir, it is pilots discretion what counts as a flight. If you say the whole route was one flight then it was.

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

Thank you very much, sir! You’ve been a big help!

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

That’s exactly what I’m doing 😂 read my mind

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TxAggieMike@reddit

And get extra for us starving CFI’s. And don’t forget the cobbler!

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BrtFrkwr@reddit

The answer is yes.

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

Ok so another question, if I full stop at KSEP (bottom airport/first destination) for about an hour then pick up the rest of the flight, can I still log this time as XC time??

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EXCELLENT_GAMES@reddit

Go look up far, aim 61.1, and look for cross country.

The regs say in section ii part B, "That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure... "

So im assuming you could log the whole flight as XC, but ifr rules are different. 61.65 section d part ii "Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility... "

So for vfr, yes, im sure you're fine to log XC.

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natbornk@reddit

That’s a completely different thing. What you’re referring to is the “250”, which specifically must be dual received, not just a fun flight. Has to be IFR, 3 different approaches, 3 airports… all sorts of stuff. But for building that PIC XC, this route is totally fine

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EXCELLENT_GAMES@reddit

Ah, thanks, mb.

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

😂thank yall for the help. I was just wondering if doing full stop landings after that first leg would mess it up. Yall are the best!

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baritone_mike@reddit

As long as one of the points you land at is 50 miles straight line distance from where you started you can log the whole thing as XC.

If you start in Possum Kingdom none of this flight is XC as the most you get is only 48 miles from there. Starting at any of the other airports will work though.

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Hot-Carob-8062@reddit (OP)

I’m departing from KLUD (top right)

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__joel_t@reddit

Go read the Van Zanen LOI.

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tomdarch@reddit

It’s nice that the LOI aligns with good sense and that they clarified the point, but you’d be nuts to do otherwise.

The word “original” in the reg wasn’t a great choice.

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kdbleeep@reddit

See Sisk (2008)

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index/faa_legal_interpretations

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LegalRecord3431@reddit

Log 👏🏼that 👏🏼 shit 👏🏼

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Rockw3ll@reddit

I believe it is, only one has to be 50nm away and then all time after that counts.

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Yossarian147@reddit

The whole thing.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I just got rated as a private pilot and had a question about a flight I was thinking about taking. I am carrying passengers, so I’m not solo here. The only leg of this that is greater than 50NM is the one outlined in purple. How much of this could I log as cross country flight time if it’s going towards say an instrument rating?

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