[Hardware Unboxed] Nvidia Accused of Manipulating Gamers Nexus - Our Thoughts
Posted by imaginary_num6er@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 205 comments
Posted by imaginary_num6er@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 205 comments
hackenclaw@reddit
the general public will keep buying Geforce anyway...so Nvidia dont care.
Sh1rvallah@reddit
If they didn't care they wouldn't have done this in the first place. They're sending the very loud and strong message that they do care what these YouTube channels have to say.
Zarmazarma@reddit
A lot of people on the internet believe reputation is all or nothing. Either you sell 1 billion cards of sell 0. The idea that a bad reputation might make you sell 7% less cards and that that itself is important to companies is waaaaaay too grey a concept to even register.
noiserr@reddit
I think Nvidia saw the huge 9070xt launch with huge Microcenter lines. Youtube reviewers do have a lot of influence and Nvidia is trying to strong arm them.
MaitieS@reddit
Aren't youtubers literally the final step before customer makes a purchase? Like I really can't imagine a world where I would instantly buy a GPU without watching benchmarks.
Strazdas1@reddit
No. For the vast majority of customers there is no first step. They go to the store and buy whatever "feels right", which is usually subconsciously remembering advertisements.
noiserr@reddit
I think they are for a lot of the customers. I mean some of these channels have like over millions of views. Like LTT's 3060 review has 4.2 million views.
ElectricalBeing@reddit
How does that number compare to the number of sold GPUs + prebuilts?
noiserr@reddit
From memory I think there are 9.5 million GPUs sold each year based on some stuff I've seen. When you consider that's just one channel too.. I'd say that's pretty damn high.
And they you also have people who purchase GPUs on 2nd hand recommendation from all those who watch those reviews. In places like r/buildapc or word of mouth.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
unless amd or intel go hard in that area
INITMalcanis@reddit
Intel might because they're desperate for any kind of marketshare win, the question is whether they have the resources... and the investor patience.
AMD have made it more than clear that they won't, because they really, really want to be what Nvidia is: an "AI" focused company, with gaming GPUs far down the priority list. Arguably even further than they are for Nvidia.
noiserr@reddit
That's a bad take. Gaming is important to AMD. How else you explain FSR4 and SteamDeck?
Nvidia has a huge economies of scale which is what's making it hard for both AMD and Intel to compete. This is why both companies can't produce large die GPUs to compete at the top. This market is small.
Also on the consumer CPU side x3d is a purely gaming tech. If AMD didn't care about gaming we wouldn't have x3d consumer chips.
Snobby_Grifter@reddit
Gaming isn't important. Revenue streams are important. Until someone scuttles Radeon, they're forced to innovate because of the knock on effect it has, however minimal, on their market share and competitors perceived value.
Nvidia and Amd are the same company, just on different rungs of the same ladder. Intel is the most 'honest' of the three because of the pure humbling experience of having their ass kicked in.
None of these companies give a shit about you.
rilgebat@reddit
I assume you must be some sort of bear, and were hibernating throughout 2024 and Intel's oxidation issue.
Strazdas1@reddit
It is the same year where AMD drivers got you banned and Nvidia decided to produce no stock for 3 months just because. Intel is in good company.
rilgebat@reddit
No. The point was not that these companies make mistakes, but that the supposedly now "honest" Intel tried desperately to sweep the oxidation issue under the rug at the expense of customers.
No company is perfect, and no company is in this for reasons of altruism. But pretending like AMD is anywhere close to the level of scumbaggery that Intel and nVidia have exhibited during their respective histories is simply not in line with reality.
Strazdas1@reddit
oxidation was a tiny issue compared to the voltage issue. The idiots insisting it was oxidation defect and not firmware voltage problem has undoubtedly pissed intel off.
rilgebat@reddit
Again, the issue itself isn't what is important here, but how they responded to it.
noiserr@reddit
how long have you followed this space?
Intel too has a very shady past. Intel actually had to pay huge fines for anti competitive practices. Of the 3 companies AMD is the only one without a shady past.
fanchiuho@reddit
/tinfoilhaton
I too, find it plausible to divert my company resources to write AI bots to astroturf a subreddit, because I have a long history of astroturfing with real people to train my world class models on.
Actually no, I'd save that buck too because these clowns are happy to whiteknight my company for just chicken feed. They feel good about themselves, I feel better because I can buy another yacht, who cares?
/tinfoilhatoff
INITMalcanis@reddit
I'm not saying "AMD is just as bad as Nvidia". Nvidia is clearly acting worse than AMD right now because they can.
NB the Steam Deck does not use a discrete GPU.
Strazdas1@reddit
Nvidia is acting worse right now, AMD Has acted worse in the past. They keep trying to one-up eachother on whose the worst.
INITMalcanis@reddit
Indeed. The way to limit worstness is for neither to feel secure in market dominance.
Ideally we would bias our purchasing decisions in favour of whichever of Nvidia/Intel/AMD did the poorest on the previous generation. Ideally, it wouldn't ven be "bias" because that company would be the one trying hardest to make back the ground they lost.
Sadly, modern shareholder capitalism (lets call it what it is: rent-seeking technofeudalism) is deeply and aggressively hostile to such ideals.
Strazdas1@reddit
Ideally we would be omniscient and buy objectively best product regardless of who produced it. And best here includes the surrounding things like features, software support and how company behaves towards customers.
P.S. Ill take modern shareholder capitalism any day over the communism i saw growing up.
INITMalcanis@reddit
They are not the only possible alternatives.
(And wait until you see how technofeudalism looks like in it's fully expressed form before you make a final decision.)
Strazdas1@reddit
I agree, but that discussion is best moved to private messages as its offtopic here.
Strazdas1@reddit
x3D memory was invented for datacenters and it was only by luck (engineer had an extra sample he wanted to try on consumer CPU) they discovered it works for gaming.
Zoratsu@reddit
No? X3D is server tech that a random guy decides to play around for gaming and found that it worked.
But that is the magic of Rizen chiplets, anything that is not server grade can be sold to prosumer, consumers and hobbies over being thrown to be recycled.
noiserr@reddit
Server is obviously very important and it's what generating most of R&D funds. DIY market is tiny in comparison. But the fact AMD actually went through the hustle to implement it in DIY parts is what's commendable. They even did it for am4 as a final farewell to that platform. That's not a kind of move Nvidia (or Intel for that matter) have ever done.
AMD quite clearly cares about gamers or they wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
goldcakes@reddit
Yep. Just like NVIDIA, they price gamed CPUs for margins, instead of seriously competing.
If they sold the 9070 XT at $499 they would end the year with 3-4x their marketshare of today.
cuttino_mowgli@reddit
AMD tried that but you know the result? Nvidia's midrange card still outsells the entire Radeon line up. I already reading some that they still want Nvidia because of raytracing, DLSS and whatnot.
darthkers@reddit
AMD tried when? Polaris? Even then AMD couldn't string 2 good product launches. Mindshare takes a couple a of gens to change. You can't make a decent product one gen, shit the bed next gen and be surprised if the consumer is wary of the gen after that.
All the naysaysers like you who say AMD undercutting nVidia on price won't work have really forgotten how AMD sold Ryzen.
cuttino_mowgli@reddit
Zen is a slamdunk because the generation uplift from Bulldozer is significant pair that with their chiplet design that makes Ryzen cheaper to make. That's how AMD defeat intel.
Sorry but as of right now, there's a lot of people buying 5070s than what Radeon has to offer.
Strazdas1@reddit
No, they didnt try that. You need to do that for multiple generations in a row if you want to affect market share.
sh1boleth@reddit
Even if they sold the 9070XT for $300 they won’t get the market share just because they don’t pump out as many GPU’s as Nvidia, tsmc gives Nvidia a lot more capacity than AMD probably because Nvidia can pay them more and give better margins.
Strazdas1@reddit
there is no shortage of TSMC capacity. The issue is AMD does not buy a lot of wafer production ahead of time because its an expensive investment.
Lisaismyfav@reddit
Why should AMD price a similarly performing product at half the price of what Nvidia is charging? That will only tarnish their brand and cement the notion that they are a cheap for nothing underdog.
INITMalcanis@reddit
We could say the same about the 6800/6800XT. And the 7800XT. The mid/ethusiast market has been there for the taking if AMD wanted it, but they clearly prefer having 10% marketshare with moderate margins to a 30-40% marketshare with low margins.
As I alluded to above - they don't really want to be a successful consumer GPU company, at least not enough to genuinely compete with Nvidia on the top end which is the only place there are better margins to be had.
They want to be a successful AI hardware company, making AI hardware money.
The_Countess@reddit
You're assuming nvidia wouldn't react to a move like that from AMD.
nvidia would react, and AMD knows that.
So they can either start a price war, order loads more GPU from TSMC 18 months in advance to gain marketshare, have nvidia react and now be stuck with a boatload of GPU's it's not selling nearly as quickly representing a huge financial risk for AMD, while not actually gaining marketshare in the end.
Or they can order a amount they know they can sell and get more margin thanks to nvidia's high prices.
If consumers were more likely to switch things might be different but they have proven to be very reluctant.
Popingheads@reddit
They don't have enough silicon to do that anyway
anival024@reddit
Intel is more likely to go out of business (or sell off major portions of itself) than it is to meaningfully continue with discrete GPUs.
Vb_33@reddit
Did you not see their computex announcement? They are doubling down and are even targeting Nvidias traditional markers like workstation discrete GPUs and automotive.
This is basically the "Intel will kill their dGPU division right after alchemist" take.
Strazdas1@reddit
the dGPU division is fine and the core team is working on Druid now which would indicate Celestial is soon i guess. According to one guy who worked on Celestial that i met recently the division is doing fine for now.
INITMalcanis@reddit
Sadly, I agree. best case (I mean best for individuals who like having PCs) is that the GPU business unit gets hived off to an interested buyer. IDK, maybe Qualcomm might be interested, but anyway it's not high up on the "likely outcomes" list IMO.
I think we carry on with what I term "the reluctant duopoly" of AMD and Nvidia, neither being all that excited about discrete consumer GPUs but also neither willing to walk away from the market, until the final resolution of APUs being good enough arrives. So both of them kinda phoning it in just well enough to maintain the status quo for whatever margins they can milk from it.
Shamsonz@reddit
At this moment they could bring double performance card with half power consumption and half the price of nvidia counterparts and people would still buy greedvidia.
I mean, even in times when amd cards were vastly superior to nvidia (9700 and HD 5000 era) they couldn't exceed 50% of market share.
emeraldamomo@reddit
I am getting tired of Reddit portraying every Nvidia buyer as some cult member. Where is the Intel/AMD card that matches a 5080?
0pyrophosphate0@reddit
It's not about "every" Nvidia buyer. It's that most people buying hardware know dick-all about it and don't actually follow the industry. They usually buy Nvidia just because that's what they've heard of.
Strazdas1@reddit
Nvidia has been a stable "will just work" option for over two decades. Most people wont experiment unless they get personally burn with a brand.
Lt_Duckweed@reddit
80 and 90 class gpus make up a small fraction of the overall userbase. Most gpu volume is 60 class in prebuilts, and people blindly buying whatever is green and under 600.
darthkers@reddit
Although the top GPU does not make the most sales. It does a lot for mindshare. The Halo product. User thinks, oh nVidia has the fastest GPU, so let me buy the nVidia gpu in my price range
Cheeze_It@reddit
Well, I mean, that's kind of a you problem. Not an AMD or Nvidia problem.
It has been shown repeatedly that Nvidia has mindshare and that most humans are culty in their behavior because of psychological inertia. So you may not like being lumped in there, and I don't like it either. But I understand why it's like that. So I moved on and just bought whomever had as good or better price/performance/watt. Which currently happens to be AMD.
Strazdas1@reddit
And it would still lack core features that is the reason i chose to buy Nvidia. CUDA, RT and DLSS is why i bought my current card, not raster performance, power consumption or price advantages. AMD fans need to get this through their heads - features sell.
Clear_Efficiency5765@reddit
They may win our love in short run everyone knows that real profit comes from ai/enterprise gpus. Who would not go hard at a monopoly market?
conanap@reddit
But that’s mostly because of how far ahead NVidia is with performance, notably with DLSS. DLSS 3 and 4 pump out renders that are miles better than what FSR 3 can put out, so unless DLSS becomes open to other GPUs (it won’t), that alone is a massive advantage.
I heard XeSS is better, but since I’ve not used it, I can’t say what it’s like. For their GPUs, it’s just not priced for the performance, and performance is inconsistent between backends (eg, DirectX 11 vs 12). If intel fixed the inconsistent performance and lowered prices slightly, I bet we’ll see a much bigger market share than what they have now (note: 50% increase on 2% market share is only 3% market share).
_zenith@reddit
XeSS is decent, about where DLSS 2.2 was, but with frame gen included. FSR 4 far outstrips it now, however, with it being only slightly inferior to DLSS 4 Transformer (even exceeding its image quality in some particular contexts - although DLSS is still better on average)
conanap@reddit
Lowkey didn’t even know FSR4 came out, I’ll take a look at that. Many thanks :)
Strazdas1@reddit
FSR4 is good. First upscaler from AMD that i dont think looks awful. Most reviewers place it somewhere between DLSS 3 and DLSS 4.
shugthedug3@reddit
sub has just become /r/gamersnexus at this point
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
I got downvoted about 1000 times for being critical of him on here lol.
NoStructure5034@reddit
This isn't criticism, it's just a rant. Lmao.
aksine12@reddit
i've criticized GN plenty of times and i have been upvoted lol..
they say plenty of stupid shit sometimes
innerfrei@reddit
This is no real criticism, it looks more like low effort venting. Not what the sub aims for.
DotA627b@reddit
Look at the guy's post history when it comes to GN. I've seen them comment on a GN post 6 times at one point within the first hour (I believe yesterday's?), and that's just ONE GN post.
It's not about HubX or GN at this point, it's about the guy you're replying to specifically considering how their irrationality regarding the subject matter implies there's something going about them and GN.
Flaimbot@reddit
wouldn't be surprised if it's either an astroturf account or the guy having nvidia shares
dern_the_hermit@reddit
"Hardware channel gets linked on hardware forum, why is this?!?"
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
This video has nothing to do with the actual hardware. It’s a reaction to a video about their own professional relationship with the company
dern_the_hermit@reddit
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
Not hardware news, not hardware review, not hardware discussion. It’s a video about their jobs as YouTubers and their professional relationship with Nvidia
6198573@reddit
Hardware YouTubers and their professional relationship with Nvidia a hardware company
So its hardware news
_reverse_noraa_@reddit
To be fair, it is _gaming_ hardware news. This sub is in fact a gamer sub and the surrounding gossip. That's why I can understand people being uninterested.
dern_the_hermit@reddit
Oh, you don't know what at least three of those words mean lol
thoughtcriminaaaal@reddit
Are you just negative karma farming? You've left an uncountable number of comments defending this shit practice. It's blatantly obvious how Nvidia's actions here will hurt the broader ecosystem around consumers and hardware discussion and reviews.
If Nvidia gets its way the only pre-release idea about how one of their cards will perform will exclusively be ridiculous misrepresentations with bar graphs that will show 8x MFG DLSS performance compared to no DLSS and no MFG, and not a single competing option allowed to be mentioned. Arguably worse than even marketing slides directly from Nvidia.
These fake previews are going to leave a mark on SEO which can drown out honest reviews. Honest reviewers can only get started on their reviews on release day, not before, since they won't have access to drivers because they didn't play nice and misrepresent their products. It's an awful precedent to normalize this.
Joezev98@reddit
It absolutely does. It is important to know how tainted the reviews of Nvidia hardware are.
LordAlfredo@reddit
We'll get the 5060 reviews and Computex flood over the next few days, until it starts this and the "5060 preview" controversy are the only notable stories happening at the moment.
Strazdas1@reddit
and after 3 days everyone will forget about 5060 and c hase another news story.
theholylancer@reddit
if only LTT dont do sponsored content and fight for the consumer eh
like those really shitty Snapdragon arm on windows stuff that had really bad battery testing suite in the reviews after their paid promo videos that didnt hit all the low points with emulated (battery) performance and only showed it being very good under some of the best circumstances for the thing
very few are being attack dogs for the consumer, and GN and others like it are being in the spotlight for a good reason.
DubiousLLM@reddit
How easily you all forgetting they brought of the issue directly last time Nvidia went after Hardware Unboxed, Linus called them out and in return they got "banned" by Nvidia.
theholylancer@reddit
yep, LTT does some of this stuff, but the fact they did the whole 8K sponsored video, the snap X ones, the...
like if all they did was for those robo pool vacs or MAYBE some of the TV or display stuff that they don't do in depth review on, I'd be more onboard
I esp call out LTT because they have a huge diversified income stream and can 100% just tell all brands, not just nvidia or w.e to pound sand for that kind of coverage, unlike a smaller outfit.
and I have a feeling that LTT is the reason why nvidia tired to have "sponsored" RT/DLSS videos with HUB because they thought all tech media is like LTT. but I have no proof of that at all, so hey.
itsjust_khris@reddit
Usually with LTT sponsored videos it's obvious it's sponsored though.
The X Elite video wasn't that bad, not highlighting worse case scenario battery life doesn't make it a bad review since for many, unless you have an emulated app you won't hit that. These days it's actually surprising how many things don't need emulation anymore, especially if you can do it in a browser.
theholylancer@reddit
sure, but the issue is how can I trust any reviews of it when there is sponsored content for it on the same channel
sure you can say its not the same, its clearly labeled but at the end of the day, there is always are you biting the hand that feed right?
no matter how small or how insignificant it is, we are taught its called conflict of interest.
ryanvsrobots@reddit
Have you ever worked in media?
theholylancer@reddit
nope, i never have why
and reviewers should be a trusted neutral third party no? not a media PR type of deal on the side of the seller as much as they can be.
BighatNucase@reddit
I don't know why you would even watch someone if you think a sponsored video is enough to make them lie about their beliefs in a review. Like if GN were to do a sponsored video for Nvidia, do you think he would suddenly stop being as credible in reviews?
theholylancer@reddit
a sponsored video during the launch period or the pre launch hype period?
yes
random times when its not new and shiny and trying to get people to buy? less so and it can be cool, esp if its exclusive access bts stuff like touring their fabs or design hq
BighatNucase@reddit
Again the fact that you can only look at the sponsorship itself to identify credibility is incredibly naive. You're not actually analyzing anything, you're using heuristics to avoid having a real conversation.
theholylancer@reddit
look up definitions of conflict of interest, even if it was clean, the fact that it casts doubt should be enough of a red flag for someone who is caring about that at all at the c level of things
BighatNucase@reddit
Again, just labelling things like this is not how it even works in the real world. You can operate with a potential conflict of interest so long as precautions are taken. More importantly when you're looking at it from the audience point of view it's not enough to say "there is a conflict of interest so credibility is dead". You're mixing up why a media person would care about a conflict and why the audience would care.
When you're the media your tolerance is different and for different reasons; you might axe something not because there is an actual conflict but because the appearance of a potential conflict is enough to not justify it. When you're the audience you care about a conflict because it gives you a reason to look a bit deeper and think "has this negatively affected the accuracy of their reporting". You just want to go "look there's a conflict, end of discussion" when that's not something any smart person would do.
theholylancer@reddit
for media maybe
but this is what i was taught in school and i took with me
https://www.nspe.org/career-growth/ethics/board-ethical-review-cases/conflict-interest-reviewing-approving-engineer
and hell how many subs do ltt have vs others? so yeah you can look at it that way and say ethics is overrated, but to me, if im paying cash? nope not ltt
BighatNucase@reddit
literally like the 2nd paragraph of the discussion
Later on also
so thank you for proving my point
theholylancer@reddit
which i did too right
i do not mind LTT or other similar channels doing a robot vac thing or as I said for LTT specifically to do TV/mmonitor sponsored content
they disclose that, and it is wholly not part of their main line up of competencies
but GPUs? laptops? that is something they present themselves as authority on and have many technical pieces on and is supposed a trusted place for it
but having sponsored content there is wholly IMO breach of that
BighatNucase@reddit
It's not wholly a breach of that so long as there's the proper disclosure and no sign of it actually affecting those pieces. As your link points out, you need to actually have a more sophisticated dialogue in cases of conflict of interest where the conflict is anything more complicated than "I own the Nvidia company, I will now review Nvidia, AMD and Intel GPUs". You're avoiding that conversation because it doesn't lead down the route you want or because you're incapable of it.
theholylancer@reddit
again, i pointed out the lack of in depth battery testing on emulated snap x being an issue
then the whole 8k 3090 thing, esp now they themselves released a video years later on the 5090 on 8k and how even now it is still a pipe dream and poking fun of their own older videos on it
how many more do you want examples of this kind of problem? you are wholly dismissing those issues completely when I and you CANNOT be fully sure that they were not influenced at all in their review of said products, that is what conflict on interest, even if there was no actual breech and influence, the appearance of being partial to a company because of these kinds of relationships is an issue in itself.
BighatNucase@reddit
I mean if your best example includes "they made a fun video on 8k gaming in which they point out that it's not really that viable" then yeah I'm questioning if you even believe you have a point.
In regards to your complaint about battery tests, you don't really explain what you mean - I think this explains a possible answer that is reasonable in my view?
theholylancer@reddit
no...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDUnSsx62j8 that was released on Sept 22, 2020, the 8k fun video
then Sept 24, 2020, just 2 days later the 3090 review went out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjcxrfEVhc8
that kind of timing and release window is absolutely a conflict of interest, yes, the sponsored video is clearly marked
is the "super impressive" DLSS 2.0 comment that was super early on the 3090 review legit or one due to being influenced by the performance of it for 8k making it even runnable? Linus opened with that line, and with what we know about nvidia pushing for DLSS and RT for talking points, is that because LTT was really impressed or was it because nvidia wanted it in as a head line?
not to mention if you looked at it, the 3090 was really not that much better than the 3080, and sure, LTT arrived at that by the end and it certainly wasn't as positive all things considered. but the openers and all the positivity at the start can now feels wrong no?
BighatNucase@reddit
Yes and as we've discussed, you can't just point to a conflict of interest and use that as the entire argument; at most it gets your foot in the door to making the actual argument.
Are you denying that DLSS 2.0 was impressive? Even at the time I remember seeing videos of it in action and knowing it would be the future of rendering. If this is your argument I again feel much more confident you have nothing. Watching the video now and they actually start off with a bunch of negatives? They point out that it's a big GPU that needs a lot of power and a good cpu just in order to be useable. Even your argument about it starting positive is bullshit.
I don't believe you actually believe in this "well they say it's bad from a price-to-performance point of view but because they are positive on DLSS this is proof of the conflict affecting accuracy" argument. All you've done to me is prove that LTT don't let conflicts affect their accuracy.
theholylancer@reddit
and if you watched wan show at all, Linus is adamant that he himself can spot issues with DLSS rendering vs native any time and any day.
if that is true, then shouldnt his reviews reflect that? that DLSS while is good in some cases are not perfect at all, esp if you live tech and have cards that are capable of not using it?
DLSS is impressive, but it is an imperfect compromise that IMO is best for stretching out your GPU's life for longer so that you don't need to upgrade as frequently
for NEW cards, you should never need to turn it on, but hey UE5 games says what is fuck is optimization so you have to for modern titles, and it shouldn't be the case honestly, but that isn't solely on nvidia (their gutting of how much you get at each price point can be blamed).
and again, do you NOT understand what conflict of interest is?
it doesn't matter if there was an issue or not, the fact that the potential is there should have been a red flag for LTT to not take the sponsorship, but they did right.
while GN has no such sponsored content, as do many other channels, esp right during the launch window of something they portray themselves to be experts on and is a trusted neutral third party to be.
BighatNucase@reddit
I can spot issues with MSAA, that doesn't mean I would ever not turn it on or that a GPU having MSAA support isn't a positive. You're stretching hard here if you think this is an actual argument about how the reviews were being affected (note that Linus doesn't even write all the reviews so this 'contradiction' doesn't even really work).
You absolutely should turn on some kind of DLSS in modern games because the alternatives are all worse - being either worse forms of TAA or no AA at all beyond some basic shit that doesn't do anything.
This is pathetic - you're again just proving my point if this is the best you have. We literally both read an actual set of guidelines you claim to abide by which says "hey a conflict of interest doesn't mean you can't act; it just means you have to be a bit more careful". I understand why you're avoiding your own guidelines though - it makes it harder to be so aggressive. All you've done is prove to me that even if LTT placed themselves in a position where they need to be more cautious, that they've treaded with the utmost caution and have done nothing wrong. Your best example for "they harmed their accuracy" is "well they were maybe a bit more positive on DLSS than I prefer" which is just such a laughable dispute.
theholylancer@reddit
Again, I think you are misunderstanding something here
CoI is not the same as fraud or other such things where LTT or anyone actually turned a CoI into something far more serious by taking under the table deals.
CoI is simply the appearance of impartiality being impacted by actions, while fraud is if they willingly misrepresented things by accepting money in a way to sell things on behalf of someone.
If you personally thinks that because they have not defrauded anyone, that the CoI issues are not big enough of an issue to you that you believe you can base your purchase decision on their words. Then that is on you.
BighatNucase@reddit
I don't know what you don't understand. CoI isn't always something that suggests impropriety nor does the presence of a CoI mean you can never act. Even in super strict professions with harsher regulations than the one you linked, you can still act in certain situations where a CoI is present. I have to look at this from a results point of view because when we're talking about these lighter cases of CoI the only real way to say that something wrong has happened is if the CoI manifests in some kind of real change in the content. LTT has always been honest and up front about sponsorships which is what guidelines generally require; the only way to show that they have failed to act honestly with the presence of a CoI is if you can actually show it manifesting in some less accurate reporting (which you can't, at most you can say "well they were a bit more positive than I would have liked").
You can't point to a weaker form of CoI and pretend that it has the same standards as a stronger form of CoI. Again, referring back to the guidelines you swore by :
I believe that where a Conflict of Interest is weak, the onus is on you to prove some form of dishonesty in order for this to be considered a real issue. This is not just my belief, this is the belief of probably any professional body you could consult on this issue.
theholylancer@reddit
And lets look at their competitors in this front right, HuB, GN and I am sure others are not taking sponsorships and don't have that CoI that I trust more.
Yes, it doesn't always lead to fraud, CoI when disclosed and all that can be fine, but when your competitors explicitly don't take sponsorships from the places they are reviewing from then what.
Again, to you, it seems that you want concrete proof that LTT is defrauding you to be an issue. I don't, because there are other sources of information readily available that don't have this issue.
BighatNucase@reddit
Nothing? That's not how it works? You can't say "well these other people aren't taking sponsorships, so clearly LTT are being impacted by CoI"????
You do have no argument, I'm happy we could walk it down this far. You couldn't argue on the meaning of CoI because you don't understand how CoI works. You couldn't argue on actual impacts caused by CoI because there aren't any in this case. So now you've resorted to this bizarre "well these other channels don't act like that" argument as if it means anything. Regulations around CoI don't care if the majority choose not to tread the grey line, they still need to exist for people who are forced to do so from time to time. I could make the argument that all those channels are even more suspect if the reason they refuse to take sponsors is that they genuinely think it would affect their ability to be unbiased; LTT are well run enough that they don't let sponsorships affect their reporting.
theholylancer@reddit
Again, what? You think that because they self report that they are unbiased, and that taking sponsorships means that they wont be impacted by bias and is all fine that is is good? And that others by not taking sponsorships are worse because they can be biased so to not take it?
What kind of take is this?!
So police should investigate its own wrong doing? The military should have no civilian oversight? The insurance company denies your care because of internal guidelines that says you don't need it?
BighatNucase@reddit
Thank you for again proving you don't know your own ethical guidelines. Yes; when the CoI is weaker (e.g. simply taking sponsor money in a different video) the expectation is just "be open and honest about your sponsorship, and don't let it affect your work so that you are being dishonest as a result". I'm sorry that you think the standard is "If there is any possible CoI, you can not act at all because it's impossible for you to be honest with a CoI" but there's no profession that acts like this.
theholylancer@reddit
Ok here are some examples right
https://www.cobrief.app/resources/legal-glossary/disqualification-due-to-conflicting-interests-overview-definition-and-example/
Imagine a nonprofit organization is selecting a new board member. One of the candidates is an executive at a corporation that has a partnership with the nonprofit. To ensure that the selection process is fair and not influenced by the candidate’s professional ties, the candidate is disqualified from the board selection committee due to a potential conflict of interest.
By simply appearing to be a possible issue, the person was DQed from the running.
https://www.hinshawlaw.com/newsroom-updates-california-district-court-applies-california-s-new-rule-of-professional-conduct-to-disqualify-firm-from-representation.html
Same thing here, an actual example where one lawyer moving to another firm cause that firm to be disqualified to represent the party sued because that one lawyer can possibly have insider info (note possibly, not actually we are not sure on that).
BighatNucase@reddit
Do you understand why this is materially different than getting a sponsorship?
The law example is also again materially different - it would be closer to if a video review was sponsored by that company. This might surprise you, but lawyers can still work for a client even if there is a potential conflict of interest - there are just stricter rules around it.
theholylancer@reddit
Of course, youtuber credibility is nowhere nearly as important as any of that, so if you wanted to claim that, sure go nuts. it is very much materially different than a sponsorship.
But I'd rather not waste my own money because of any of that, and its not like I am saying boycott LTT because of this, as LTT's entertainment value is one of the highest in the tech space. Again the example of Secret shopper vs GN's prebuild evaluations, unless you are seriously considering buying a prebuild, the LTT video (series) is far more attractive as a casual watch with its skits and set up.
The law example shows that yes, CoI can be disqualifying in the real world, not just like you said that it can be simply do away with entirely as an issue with disclosure and then its fine.
And yeah, in your link, even at the end it says that hey, it may be the case that you need a whole separate team to represent the policyholder, and not have the same team represent the insurance company and the policyholder.
CoI can be worked around, but without third party oversight or at least something like a Bar association, its just their word on it right.
BighatNucase@reddit
I literally never said otherwise but you need this to be the case because it's impossible for you to square away the argument otherwise. My point has always been "sponsorships are a weak case of CoI, you would need to show actual results in order to assert impropriety". You threw a fit because you're incapable of doing this or understanding that not all CoI is disqualifying. All of this bluster, just because you're incapable of understanding a pretty simple concept.
In that link it also says "an attorney who believes themselves subject to a potential conflict of interest has a duty to notify their potential client or current client of that conflict. An attorney can only proceed with representing that client if they obtain written, informed consent from all clients affected by the conflict. ". A lot of this is also self-policed - it's only on reddit and non-professional spaces where the idea of self-policing is laughed at. I wouldn't be surprised if most bar association complaints are filed by firm compliance officers. Just stop talking on this topic you're woefully out of your depth on.
theholylancer@reddit
Prove nothing? Again, who is the decider of if LTT is truthworthy or not?
To me? To you? I am simply stating my views and you are acting as if you are the rightmost authority on it, and as if you can decide for everyone if they are good or not. I am not going to convince you to change your stance on this, and nor you me.
I am stating my opinion on this, and you are stating yours, and I find your opinion laughable.
" An attorney can only proceed with representing that client if they obtain written, informed consent from all clients affected by the conflict. " right, so that is self policed? The policy holder has to say yes to being represented by the council for the insurance holders, and that is self policing to you?
Let me ask if a cancer patient who had gotten denied treatment if they would like to have the insurance company's lawyer represent them, in writing.
BighatNucase@reddit
Nothing? That's not how it works? You can't say "well these other people aren't taking sponsorships, so clearly LTT are being impacted by CoI"????
You do have no argument, I'm happy we could walk it down this far. You couldn't argue on the meaning of CoI because you don't understand how CoI works. You couldn't argue on actual impacts caused by CoI because there aren't any in this case. So now you've resorted to this bizarre "well these other channels don't act like that" argument as if it means anything. Regulations around CoI don't care if the majority choose not to tread the grey line, they still need to exist for people who are forced to do so from time to time.
ExtremeFreedom@reddit
GN's partnered videos with nvidia where they went over the engineering is about the same leverage as LTT's sponsored videos with nvidia IMO. And clearly nvidia viewed that content the same way as that is what they were using to blackmail steve into doing what they wanted him to. Everyone works with brands from time to time, as long as that is separate that's fine.
theholylancer@reddit
I mean that is the thing right, no money was exchanged, and when nvidia tried to do something, it was called out.
whereas linus took the money and ran with it, and we have no idea what would have happened had LTT didn't do that, and did what HUB did and dismiss DLSS and RT as a thing during the 2020s when that all went down right.
its not as clear cut with media as it is in other places, but that is the difference to me in terms of trustworthiness of the two, esp given that the achievement of that 2 slot cooler is something that naturally interested steve and co with their cooling background with cases.
itsjust_khris@reddit
That's why LTT does their revenue breakdowns, right now sponsors aren't the majority of their revenue. They can afford to drop any and many of their sponsors and not take a hit to their existence.for this reason I would trust they don't need to author content in favor of a sponsor > reasonably factual information since they will survive if they deny the sponsorship.
theholylancer@reddit
but despite it being small, they keep doing them no?
and that line of thinking got us billionaires in government, they got money so they wont be tempted by more of it right?
DubiousLLM@reddit
Fair, I get that point.
Intelligent_Top_328@reddit
Ltt isn't a media company. It's an ad company.
Zenith251@reddit
SMH. Jesus dude, it's in the name. Media Company. How do media companies make money? One or both of two ways: Direct sales (DVD/VHS/LASERDISC/MINIDISC/VCD/Theater Ticket/FLIPBOOK) sales or rentals, or sell advertising space.
That's literally what a Media company does. Sell media or sell ad space for media distribution.
theholylancer@reddit
then they shouldn't be portrayed as a review company as a neutral third party where you can get trusted information right?
it is so strange seeing people defend LTT's trustworthiness when LTT's primary value is their entertainment and shenanigans with a side of each different nice hosts on the show
Zenith251@reddit
"review company." SMH again. You're just creating reasons to dislike them.
Every youtuber, including the much respected GN, runs ads. And every youtuber, including LTT/Linus says or has said to check multiple reviews to get a more complete picture of a product.
Marksta@reddit
You sound like the kind of guy who'd get pissed off at a professor or a doctor telling a joke. How is their work to be trusted if they try to make things fun?!
-Purrfection-@reddit
There's no such thing as a review company. Every YouTube channel is a media company, they sell advertising space in their videos. Now to who they sell it to is a different story. But there's no way to keep up a company of multiple employees (GN, LTT, HUB, DF) without selling adspace. AdSense from a single channel can't pay more than a couple of people's salaries.
theholylancer@reddit
yeah, and hey, thats why there is GN mugs or dice or modmats, or HuB patreon and all that right.
you are right in that every company is a media company, but the degree they sold out is very much different between each entity. And as a result, you have to have a personal bar for these things and hey, I 100% understand if LTT is it for you, because in the grand scheme of things they aint one of the people who will take the 5060 deal or anything like that.
and to me, that is why it is especially bad for LTT, they can 100% say no and have minimal impact on their day to day.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
we live in a society
Thingreenveil313@reddit
I thought it was very interesting that in HUB's other Nvidia video on this subject, they named Digital Foundry with no qualms, yet when they got to the "3090 8K gaming" fiasco, they didn't want to name names anymore.
I don't really blame them. Name dropping LTT in a negative light won't be a net positive for the community, but it's sad we're at this point.
theholylancer@reddit
i mean it shows right...
the LTT vs GN beef is absolute shitshow and it very much divided the tech community, where I think Linus said in wan show that he wanted to have high tide life all boats instead of predatory stuff that happened in the makeup / fashion youtube world that was apparently unfriendly competition that made people leave the scene
I love both of them for different reasons, if I am putting my wallet on the line, GN is one of my most trusted sources
if I want a relaxing and fun tech related video, no one else does it like LTT, they remind me of Top Gear for better and worse.
like hell, even the prebuild reviews of steve vs LTT shows it, one is a in dept dive into the prebuilds and the other is a sherlock holmes homage meme filled series that is lighter on details but of the two I watched way more of secret shopper because I build my shit so I don't really care about prebuilds and their quality
wusurspaghettipolicy@reddit
Look here you mutant, this is a sub for discussion about hardware and its effect on the community it caters to. Coming here to complain is like screaming into your own head.
It really doesn't justify this level of outrage you are claiming
Its not outrage, its your lack of awareness of the current state of affordable hardware that is geared towards the specific market it panders to which the silicon provider who controls the drivers and the market. If you do not have a grasp about why people are upset, go to another sub reddit. If you are okay with sub standard hardware at a premium pricing point, I suggest you direct your time to something that is more meaningful - such as gardening. That way you can find a nice pile of dirt to plant your head into and never come back up for air.
DNosnibor@reddit
They've been putting out a ton of content the past few days
DotA627b@reddit
It's Computex week, they literally do this every year.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
I didn’t realize I was on their channel’s page
Cheeze_It@reddit
Is that bad?
professional_oxy@reddit
Yeah I wish to get info about new hardware features through detailed articles (like cheeseandbits) / benchmarks, instead of seeing only youtube videos targeting gamers stuff on this sub. Gamers Nexus is not even that bad tho, some of the info he gives are not just "game" oriented, but still not as in depth as i would like to see
Yebi@reddit
Have you tried posting them?
professional_oxy@reddit
well, the description of the sub is:
I still have to see these quality computer hardware news/review. I can start posting them but the problem is not just me, but the quality of the posts on the sub
Yebi@reddit
Who do think has the responsibility to post things that pleases you, oh mighty lord?
professional_oxy@reddit
it's not just the users fault for the quality of a sub, but also the moderation team that gives a sub a certain shape. Im sorry if i offended your favorite gamer
Yebi@reddit
Strawmanning pretty hard there
professional_oxy@reddit
i gave you my answer without strawman, to which you havent answered.
HuntKey2603@reddit
It's been for ages.
tarellamorris@reddit
The "YouTuber" faces in this thumbnail are too much.
INITMalcanis@reddit
Look up "Clickbait Remover for Youtube" browser extension. It's almost eerie how it makes youtube feel like it's 2004 again.
GunmetalOrange@reddit
Thank you!
powerfamiliar@reddit
Great extension but the assault of clickbait when you use mobile YouTube is so weird after you get used of a clickbait-less site.
Strazdas1@reddit
my workaround for mobile is use browser instead of app, then you can use all the addons you want.
ExCharny@reddit
I didn't know how much I needed this, thx
INITMalcanis@reddit
Right? It makes the whole thing way less annoying
Jumba2009sa@reddit
It’s 2025 and people still don’t understand how YouTube work. Come on man, these videos are meant to reach the biggest audience possible, this is how it’s done to please the algorithms.
Strazdas1@reddit
its 2025 and clickbait is still not banned. Hopefully that will change by 2026.
Alternative-Farmer98@reddit
Everybody knows that's why they do it. That doesn't mean we should just tolerate it. The whole point of consumer feedback is to provide negative backlash for these kind of stupid decisions. That way or creators are at least aware of the fact that there will be backlash from some of their hardcore fans and they have to balance that versus whatever algorithmic boost.
Idea that we should never publicly criticize these thumbnails is ridiculous. The New York times just put nothing but a bunch of ads on the front page would you criticize it? Video game start adding advertisements in a million new places and microtransactions should we mention it?
Yes even though we all understand the financial incentive for those decisions.
All of that said, I do think some of this is NVIDIA fans just trying to distract from the fact that Nvidia is engaging in all sorts of crazy chicanery so they are choosing now to take their stand on these thumbnails.
But the fact is as consumers we should have constant feedback against these s* thumbnails because they made the platform worse in a million ways. The more they do it the more it becomes trendy and the algorithm boosts it even further.
If MKBHD and LTT and 10 of the biggest tech creators all got together and collectively decided to stop doing these stupid thumbnails it would go a long way.
And plenty have. Mr mobile doesn't do it. Rossmann doesn't do it. In fact he doesn't even sell ads at all or any sponsorships. Any affiliate links.
tarellamorris@reddit
I know why they do it - doesn’t make it any less cringy.
MrMoussab@reddit
Linus from Linus tech tips talked about faces in thumbnails before. He said that they experimented with different types of thumbnails but for some reason people click more when there are faces.
DasWorbs@reddit
OK? I don't care, the faces are stupid and I will keep calling them stupid until the stupidity stops.
Apollo779@reddit
I would say people always making the same comment under every video just so they can circlejerk and get upvotes is more annoying.
Yes the faces are dumb, yes they do it because it literally makes them more money, get over it, there is no need to derail a post every time so you can feel better about yourself
Strazdas1@reddit
It does not matter in the slightest if it makes them money or not. Its a bad thing regardless.
skycake10@reddit
You can call them stupid until you're blue in the face, but the thumbnails work and getting views is how they make money, so it's not going to stop.
Strazdas1@reddit
They make money via patreon/sponsors. views->ads are really low amount of income on youtube nowadays.
None of this is a valid excuse for clickbait though.
ssjaken@reddit
I make the conscious decision to not click on thumbnails that are like that. Anecdote.
Strazdas1@reddit
I do the same, and if thats all the youtuber does i usually block the channel.
Background-Rise-8668@reddit
They should just have a hot chick in a bikini holding a GPU, if your dying to use data to backup cringe facial expressions.
Strazdas1@reddit
There was a TV station that tried to do news segment but all reporters are hot chicks in bikini. The ratings skyrocketed, then the goverment forced them to stop it due to decency laws.
sicklyslick@reddit
Veritasium did a similar video featuring Mr beast about thumbnail arts. Pretty much same thing, they work.
https://youtu.be/S2xHZPH5Sng?si=ixqO6wtVrMOCoI6z
Strazdas1@reddit
Yep. Advertisement figured this long ago. Put smiling people next to the product advertised and youll be a lot more successful. Human brains are stupid.
Alternative-Farmer98@reddit
Yes but he was being a little silly in that because first of all he acted like using those thumbnails was a choice between growing and not growing. Was his literal argument
Fan said he should have more aesthetically pleasing informative thumbnails that don't use clickbait and are actually informative. And he responded and said hey what are you talking about we're still a growing company and we need to grow so we can't stop making these stupid thumbnails because they're more popular.
But it wasn't the difference between survival or not. It was like 15% more clicks. And they don't have to completely cut to boring thumbnails there's a happy med. They could still have the stupid faces but actually put the product name in the review instead of something like "I've never seen this before."
The idea that a growing company couldn't choose to manage its growth by slightly decreasing it because they want to hold on to some kind of aesthetic and information value is kind of silly.
And that was all the way back in 2018. 7 years later his company is perfectly viable and healthy. The idea that they can't survive without treating YouTube like it's a tabloid is just exaggerating.
For years people act like because he mentioned it one time in 2018 that it's not a debate that anyone can ever have ever again.
Vb_33@reddit
Because people are humans and react to see|ing other humans expressing emotion.
sjsbfbfkke@reddit
I honestly dont get ir, not because of authism or anything like that. I just cringe watching the exaggerated expresions. Maybe i'm more logical than the target audience
Unlikely-Today-3501@reddit
And? Maybe more people would click if they shit there..
hardware-ModTeam@reddit
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, your submission has been removed for the following reason:
wankthisway@reddit
Brother what are you even saying. And the click increase was like 30%, it's massive.
Flibs-@reddit
There's a reason so many people use the same template for almost all of their videos. Makes sense.
Techhead7890@reddit
Get DeArrow and replace the default thumbnails! But yeah HUB has had a lot of those lately
Alternative-Farmer98@reddit
I mean it helps a little but it's not a perfect solution. A better solution would be some of these huge or creators to take a stand and the very least and the trend of not even putting the product name in the thumbnail.
"Apple's going to be scared about this...." Is not a thumbnail that a serious company should put when they're talking about some other companies earbuds or something. At the very least: soundcore Liberty 5: Apple's going to be upset about this.
But 90% of the time they don't even do that. I recognize there's a temptation to go with the ridiculous thumbnails and take it to the highest possible level just like there's a temptation for video game developers to insert on microtransaction at every single possible spot.
But the better video game developers refuse to do it or at least minimize it and some of these big YouTube channels should take a page. And I know he's a hot rod but LTT would be a good place to start since he's so influential and his justification for these thumbnails has now trickled down. I'm not saying he's wrong like no one's disputing that the stupid thumbnails increase click through I think linus said by 15%. But as soon as the big channel stop engaging in that the algorithm will tweak to reflect that.
But eventually we need to scrutinize the biggest channels the most for things like conflicts of interest, poor thumbnails, just obsessively chasing every last dollar over just basic integrity and aesthetic value.
When Linus made his video about the stupid thumbnails that was like 7 years ago. His company has probably tripled in value and since then. The idea that those thumbnails are absolutely instrumental to the survival of his company is just not true
doomed151@reddit
That's on us, the viewers.
tarellamorris@reddit
Speak for yourself.
scheppend@reddit
Seems their target is little kids
Jofzar_@reddit
Their target is making a living, and YouTuber faces makes people click the video.
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
and having positive reviews makes people buy more video cards
scheppend@reddit
Their most popular videos don't have those faces (1.5M)
And videos like this still get 5.5M views:
This
sascharobi@reddit
Correct 🤮
UnknownBreadd@reddit
Bro they kill me everytime lol. Steve’s (HU) faces in their thumbnails are always so goofy and uncanny😭 they look so photoshopped for some reason
b34k@reddit
That reason is probably to get clicks
thunk_stuff@reddit
Youtubers are taught to make emotive faces to feed the algorithm. HUB is doing malicious compliance.
-WingsForLife-@reddit
That's because they are shopped, and there's nothing really wrong with that.
Mo-Monies@reddit
Yeah as shitty as Nvidia is acting I don’t think we need multiple videos on this. I wish the mods would have a heavier hand and keep this sub more on topic.
DIYEconomy@reddit
"Posts should be about hardware news, reviews, and technical discussion," I'm unclear how discussing nVidia's blatant attempts at media manipulation don't fall under the category of hardware news when they design said hardware, though.
DubiousLLM@reddit
They ever blockedlisted few years ago so they know the pain, and in turn when Linus called them out they were blockedlisted as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/xg8ief/apparently_linustechtips_was_blocklisted_by/
https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/xg8hoo/ltt_blocklisted_from_nvidia_partners_screengrab/
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Blacklisting some of the biggest reviewers on the planet for calling you out is dumb behaviour.
But Nvidia know they have a monopoly so don't care
KekeBl@reddit
GN Steve's video about Nvidia is this week's most upvoted post on the Nvidia sub, so I'm not sure what you mean.
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Can you find any of the HW unboxed videos on the topic there?
I've had them instantly removed when I've posted
ryanvsrobots@reddit
There are two on the front page, one is yours.
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Mine was removed by the Mods, I posted it this morning.
It has now been approved I guess. The OP of another thread posted it to the Nvidia sub before me and had his removed and not approved.
At the time of Writing (8+ hours ago) I was correct. I have no issue editing my previous comments to reflect the fact it has now been approved.
There are however others who tried to post the same video I did before me. GN videos were up immediately too, so why the wait for Hub.
ryanvsrobots@reddit
I saw it this morning
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
The post engagement metrics state it had 2 views until it had been up for 5 hours (I'm guessing myself and a mod). So unless your comment is reflecting a difference between our time zones, you can't have seen it this morning. First comment on it is 4 hours ago too. That's still multiple hours after I posted it. It only started getting views after hour 6.
What's your argument for those who posted it before me? See theirs yesterday somehow?
ryanvsrobots@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1kq1wyy/dont_buy_the_rtx_5060/ yeah
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
A post from a day ago with not a single upvote or downvote?
Seems unlikely considering the topic. More likely it was sat in the removed pile for that time
ryanvsrobots@reddit
Obviously it's because yours gained the traction.
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
His was posted long before mine though?
It makes zero sense
ryanvsrobots@reddit
Who posted it before you?
Rendition1370@reddit
HUB previous video on 5060 hasn't been allowed so this won't either. They're only allowing GN Steve's video
Any-Ingenuity2770@reddit
Do they still sort comments as new on any even slightly critical video or news post?
TheShitmaker@reddit
Its currently the most upvoted submission on the front page.
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Got a link?
TheShitmaker@reddit
Oh my bad. Thumbnail inception confused me.
Hen-stepper@reddit
I understand why it’s a problem. But this has little impact on real life people. The GPU market is already incredibly shady and easy for a consumer to fuck up their purchase. If people don’t do research that’s on them.
GN provides good data and it’s likely people will trust them and wait for a review rather than absurdly waiting on launch day to blindly purchasing a 5060.
Aggravating_Ring_714@reddit
Just curious: Is NVIDIA in any way obligated to give free shit or anything to tech reviewers (like access to their own experts etc)?
MrMuggs@reddit
Did you watch the video at all? They went through this in detail in the video.
DeskFuture5682@reddit
All these YouTube preview thumbnails are soooo fucking cringe I can't stand it
wusurspaghettipolicy@reddit
Once Jacob left EVGA for NVIDIA as an evangelist, it was writing on the wall that it was going to be NVIDIA vs all of their AIBs and buyers. The 2020 COVID was just a test run for what they could get away with. Unfortunately, pulling video cards out of the oven during a very dire time turns out it was a big fucking slap in the consumers face and only the gamers paid in the end (and still do). They are doing it again and NVIDIA planned this overall from the 10 series with the FE because how well it was received, nothing since has been received by gamers well. They do not need AIB or anyone reviewing the GPU segment for their sales in a market they do not care about - it's what Apple has done for decades and it works. Just not for you.