Sad incident to my plane to be
Posted by Vaypal@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 84 comments
So here is a story. One of the good guys that knew i was buying this plane , saw it getting damaged by hail as it was happening. I put a small deposit on this plane and went into a contract to buy given that it is in the same condition i saw it in and stated condition and current defects if any and that was before the hail. The owner is a great guy and im sure we'll work something out and hes probably as sad as I'm. The questions i have to people with planes that have hail damage, how big of a loss in value is it vs the original price i was going to pay for it. Also does it really affect the plane performance? . Does insurance get tricky with those planes, does doing an annual become more difficult? Im just trying to consider everything before i make a decision on whats next.
I couldn't add more photos but wings have similar damage
Thank you.
anon0111239756@reddit
I wonder if Grummans are more susceptible to hail damage with their bonded skin. I would be concerned if the hail caused some delimitation to occur.
jarcaf@reddit
Absolutely. If I wanted to knock loose a glue joint I'd consider using a ball peen hammer in this fashion.
It needs a thorough inspection by either FletchAir in Texas, or Excel Air in Indiana. They are the remaining Grumman Guru shops. Also get on GrummanGang or AYA if you haven't already.
tikkamasalachicken@reddit
Don’t forget the Grumman guy at hogan field in Ohio
jarcaf@reddit
Roscoe is an awesome part of the community, but I can only recommend Excel or FletchAir these days. Especially for this issue.
tikkamasalachicken@reddit
That’s too bad. I think shop monkey is a great dude for helping after Roscoe’s accident
jarcaf@reddit
No doubt. There are many things I'd be happy to work with Roscoe and Shop Monkey on. Performance, interior, standard maintenance.... but from what I know right now, I would not be seeking their input on challenging judgment calls regarding safety and risk. Just my two cents.
davihar@reddit
You should ask for your deposit back and find another airplane. I used to fly an AA5 Traveler and liked it. Unfortunately it’s construction is unique and repairing that damage is not financially viable. Most people are unfamiliar with an AA5 so fewer buyers, combine that with buyers willing to accept hail damage, and there are probably only 3 people on the planet willing to buy that airplane so how would you resale it if you had to? Best to move on.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
If i get it half off, i will definitely find someone to buy it at half off. I flew a traveler that i didn't know quite often. If i buy it? I wont be repairing it, it will be my beater plane that i fly the shit out of it
davihar@reddit
Go get a beater Cessna 172 and you’ll always be able to sell it at more than you paid.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
I did all my training on a cessna, after i flew a traveler i never will go back lol if you haven't yet? You gotta try it
davihar@reddit
Since you like unconventional aircraft, you should try flying a 1979 or newer Bellanca Super Viking with Continental engine.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Its fabric and wood correct?
davihar@reddit
https://images.app.goo.gl/1mPm8oPrKaA53LiS7
davihar@reddit
https://images.app.goo.gl/sGYKtcYKP9xVxWna7
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Do you own one?
davihar@reddit
Yes, for about a decade.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Well now it is my plan B! Thanks to you, alot of plane for the money for sure!!
davihar@reddit
If you are anywhere close, worth taking a look:
https://www.bellanca-championclub.com/events/west-coast-fly-in
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
You really talked me into this plane because i know for a fact that after few months with the traveler I'll want something faster and didnt know it could be affordable still
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Ahout 4 hours north of me driving
davihar@reddit
That trip is what airplanes are for.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
When i get one lol
davihar@reddit
https://youtu.be/1ThlxyYfoYo?si=6hhUb_yj43f4nuET
davihar@reddit
Read http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/03/bellanca-17-30a-super-viking-n96jg.html?m=1
davihar@reddit
Plus some steel, aluminum, and plexiglass. A true composite airplane.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Yeah the price for what you are getting is solid value that is why i was wondering about it. Could be just as good as full aluminum but i never looked into them
TerribleBuilder5831@reddit
I would walk away unless the price was adjusted and even then I would probably still walk away. Tons of planes for sale, don’t settle
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Have you seen the prices? My original deal was at 57k so it was a solid deal to begin with
TerribleBuilder5831@reddit
If it’s a good deal then take it. I just don’t want you to start out with a project. I understand that some of this is cosmetic but you’ll want to get it fixed
tikkamasalachicken@reddit
Poor Grumman
prettylilprincess08@reddit
i think yoda wrote this
Purgent@reddit
It’s cosmetic. Take some money off the price and buy it if you love the rest of it.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
I do love the rest of it, ive been waiting for months to have time to go pick it up that is the main reason im sad this happened. Tomorrow im speaking to the owner and see what happens
Purgent@reddit
I really would not worry about it too much, except from a monetary / negotiating perspective. I’ve seen worse and know people with worse. Even mine has some hail damage and performance is not affected.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this, funny enough the guy that saw it happening and sent me the pictures said his has hail damage and was previously totaled by insurance and he bought it after that. He said its just ugly thats all. On a white plane it cant be too ugly if the discount is significant, less money on the price of the plane more money on new radios maybe
Purgent@reddit
Exactly. I got about 20% off the asking price and likely could’ve eeked more out in my negotiation. Mine had a new panel with most avionics I wanted anyway, engine and other stcs that are highly desirable, so I decided to live with the hail (white paint, hard to see it from most angles).
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Once the dust settles and they inspect the damage, we can probably assess. Naturally, whatever insurance pays him would probably be the discount, repairing this will be expensive but doesnt mean i will repair it lol as long as it flies straight im good
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
You might want to see what or if it could be repaired, how much that would be. Then, negotiate off that number.
PTR4me@reddit
It's like a golf ball, it will fly faster now.
It's more valuable than it was before.
KeepItPositiveBrah@reddit
Yea but only if its rotating end of end. At that point I think I'd rather go slower?
martasfly@reddit
I believe thats called spin. Yes, in that case you would go slower 😀
Aggressive-Ad6077@reddit
Came here to say this lol.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
I saw your same comment on another hail damage post lol
CheesecakeBulky7393@reddit
golf ball mythbusters episode
Fit-Structure3171@reddit
Why not file an insurance claim and fix it? I assume he/she has if insured
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
yeah he is, I said if they get a payout to fix it, I'll take it as it is with that same amount as a discount....end of say same plane same flying characteristics but half off!
jaded-human1982@reddit
Huge cost.
Needs reskinning on upper surfaces. Fuselage will be the same. Engine upper cowl.
Owners insurance or discount
Get a quote on repair and that will give you an indication
redditburner_5000@reddit
There is a loss in value. That, in my opinion, is quite a lot of hail damage and is very noticable.
I owned a plane with extremely light hail, so light that I didn't even notice it until a year or two after buying it. You needed juuuuust the right light and angle to detect it. The potential buyer I had for it used it as a haggling point.
You need to price the plane considerably lower. I would bet that the owner is getting a check from the insurance company anyway.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Yeah probably, this just literally happened a few hours ago, my main purpose buying it is to fly i haven't flown in a bit and i really want a plane to fly a lot more than now, so im not worried about resale if i get a big discount in it. Performance wise, annual, insurance? Do you have any idea?
redditburner_5000@reddit
Performance changes would be negligible, imo. Flight test it to make sure it makes book speeds and climb rates (more or less, that is).
I would not expect any serious maintenance problems unless the hail dented the ribs. Have an IA pour over it.
Insurance could actually be cheaper if you're willing to insure it at a lower hull value.
Bunslow@reddit
*pore over it
*yes i am a nerd
redditburner_5000@reddit
Well, I looked it up. You're right. TIL.
Bunslow@reddit
i wouldnt be surprised if in 50 years the verb "pore" is lost entirely, and the spelling retains only the noun meaning
pilotallen@reddit
The have an IA pour over it is the critical thing. If certain structural areas have been damaged this is worse than you realize. Also, most buyers will walk away when they see something like this, so resale will be difficult. Personally, I’d pass unless it is being given to me.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
If i get a deal on it i totally would
OldOrchard150@reddit
Performance? Golf balls have dimples. Those are just speed dimples for your airplane.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
If i dont buy this 9ne im going to start looking into those for sure
CaptMcMooney@reddit
looks cosmetic, have an IA or two check it out as part of your prebuy/annual. take her up for a flight, darn thing may fly faster.
if you want to move forward negotiate as best you can, i'm guessing the owner will probably file a claim anyway. $$$$
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
yeah i just talked to the owner, they will file a claim and once they do and insurance tells them the amount I might just take it discounted :)
Legitimate-Watch-670@reddit
+1 for those saying to have a mechanic scrutinize it. Poorly placed dents seem like they could be structural issues, based on my understanding of aircraft construction.
majoranne@reddit
I can't beleive the pilots who are telling you that damage is only cosmetic -- it is on the control surfaces! Yes, that will affect how the aircraft controls. I presume it is on the flaps? That will affect stall speeds and performance and invalidate the charts in your manual. Do you have your test pilot training up to date?
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
from a scientific stand point , definitely aerodynamics have changed, but its not an f16 doing Mach speeds, so to your average pilot probably won't feel a difference, lose 1 or 2 knots? .... if the discount is worth it and plane is still airworthy I'm seriously considering it
applestem@reddit
Golf balls have better aerodynamics with dimples! /jk.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
The guy that saw it happen and sent me the pictures actually owns a Tiger with 500 hours put on it with hail damage with similar and even more damage, he bought it like that for a huge discount. He said performance wise not a difference, it handles and flies including all speeds according to the manual, he said it is just ugly so you got to make sure you are willing to live with that.
suggestedmeerkat@reddit
Speed holes!
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
Only thing id be concerned with is since its an AA5, what did that hail do to the adhesive keeping the tail together.
Iirc 75 was the year they were using Purple Glue and thats been having bonding issues reported in the past decade or so.
Other than that, aside from just a regular inspection i wouldn't say hail is the doom and gloom some of you think it is.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
This is a 74
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
In that case id have someone who knows Grummans look at the elevator just to verify
gimp2x@reddit
Since nobody else will say this- don’t buy a plane with damage history, there’s no way to put a dollar amount on the decrease in value, during your ownership, or when it comes time to sell- just keep looking for one without it
thingswentsideways@reddit
You have to be a little bit careful with “NDH” planes. There are horror stories about damage and repairs that didn’t make it into the logbook for planes that were sold with “NDH.” Many prospective buyers would prefer damage they can see - and use the sale price discount to make repairs the way they believe they should be made. An airplane flown regularly since 1974 is going to have something that warrants further discussion, but if any damage has been fixed properly then it’s no worse (and maybe better) than a 1974 plane with squeaky clean logs.
gimp2x@reddit
And then you get to have fun as the new owner of a plane with damage trying to get the insurance company to agree to an acceptable replacement hull value, a lot of these concerns don’t apply fully to single piston planes, but the concept carries throughout the whole industry, my comments are centered around turbine aircraft
maverickps1@reddit
I bought my 182 with hail damage, the guy before me bought it that way as well. Not thrilled with it, but the only people to ever notice have had it pointed out to them.
Can't see it when your in the pilots seat. I picked a new engine and current avionics over great paint and no hail.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
I agree with you on this one, will wait for them to inspect it and see how much the discount is worth. Im sooo ocd about this stuff so the money has to exceed my ocd lolll
mirassou3416@reddit
In 2000 we had a hail storm at HEF in northern VA. My 1980 R182 had damage that was barely noticeable. I got in line for repairs at a shop at HGR. They were about a year out. When then called me to say a that they were ready, I checked out TAP and found a 1981 TR182 for 147K with more bells and whistles. Insurance gave me three options; 13K cash, 62K for repairs (I wanted skins replaced) or 139K to total the aircraft (that was my insured hull value). I took the 139K. Insurance put the R182 out for bids as salvage. I bid on it a few times but I was a few thousand too low. That aircraft as I’m sure yours was totally airworthy so it’s up to you what you want to do. If you have higher hull coverage than its worth, or have another AC in mind, then go for totaling the AC if insurance will offer this. Otherwise, get quotes on fixing it. In the meantime, get an IA to sign off on airworthiness and go fly.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Thank you this is very thorough
YamComprehensive7186@reddit
Just by what I see that elevator will need to be replaced. The entire aircraft needs to be inspected and yes the annual could become a big issue.
live_drifter@reddit
Definitely do not buy that airplane unless the damage is repaired, that’s going to be a huge insurance claim and a good chance the airplane is totaled.
If you buy it - regardless of what the owner may say you will not be able to file a claim for the damage as it was already there and you’ll be out of pocket to repair.
The performance will definitely be negatively affected.
Break the contract and walk away it’s only an airplane and there are many more comparable options out there without this massive headache.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
I will definitely not buy it like that unless the damage is truely cosmetic, and he deducts what insurance pays him, which I'm suspecting 50% at least. The point of this purchase is a good flying plane. If it is not going to be airworthy, im not going to sign up for repairing it
iwonder___@reddit
AP IA here. This is NOT cosmetic damage. If the entire plane has hail damage, it is a write off and totalled.
Anyone telling you its okay is giving you TERRIBLE advice. The plane is not legally airworthy, will not pass an inspection, and is worth only a very very very small fraction of its pre-damage value.
Walk away.
SaratogaFlyer@reddit
What kind of plane is it? Honestly unless it’s particularly rare or a good deal, I’d walk. Whatever you’ll “save“ now will cost you on the back end when you sell it, and in the meantime you’ll have to look at the damage. To correctly repair hail damage requires reskinning and paint; that’s a six figure repair minimum.
To answer your question though. that damage is cosmetic and you can fly it just fi…
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
Its a traveler, not rare per say but it might become a good deal
MagicOverlord@reddit
Since he is selling it, little loss for him to file it as a claim for damage on his insurance. He can then reduce the price by the claim and you can get it fixed or not.
Vaypal@reddit (OP)
If its only cosmetic and i can still do annual easily and insure it, i dont need if fixed, id tather spend the money on flying and overhaul eventually, it has 1300 on the engine smoh
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
So here is a story. One of the good guys that knew i was buying this plane , saw it getting damaged by hail as it was happening. I put a small deposit on this plane and went into a contract to buy given that it is in the same condition i saw it in and stated condition and current defects if any and that was before the hail. The owner is a great guy and im sure we'll work something out and hes probably as sad as I'm. The questions i have to people with planes that have hail damage, how big of a loss in value is it vs the original price i was going to pay for it. Also does it really affect the plane performance? . Does insurance get tricky with those planes, does doing an annual become more difficult? Im just trying to consider everything before i make a decision on whats next.
I couldn't add more photos but wings have similar damage
Thank you.
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