Hamas proposes releasing some hostages in fresh talks after new Israel offensive
Posted by Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 198 comments
ExoticCard@reddit
For all their cutting edge technology and AI, the IDF is still unable to get rid of Hamas. The US estimates about there are about 30,000 Hamas members. How many do you think are dead?
They've resorted to just starving absolutely everyone. All that advanced weaponry US citizens soent their tax dollars on, useless.
Look at Yemen. A bunch of poor people living in the mountains were able to inflict some real damage. All those fancy bombers and weapons barely phased them.
We could have had universal healthcare.
Shellz2bellz@reddit
Annihilating their strike zones isn’t really “barely phasing them” though… that’s just anti-western cope
Mr-Anderson123@reddit
You’ve been annihilating the entire damn region without regard for civilians
EternalMayhem01@reddit
Hamas is choosing to fight a war without regard to those civilians.
UndocumentedMartian@reddit
Under international law people under occupation have the right to resist violently. It's on the occupier to gtfo.
EternalMayhem01@reddit
So what you are saying is that it is alright for Hamas to disregard the safety of its civilians because it is resisting according to you?
UndocumentedMartian@reddit
That's like saying it's on the enemy forces that you're committing war crimes.
EternalMayhem01@reddit
So it's alright for Hamas to commit war crimes because it is resisting?
Logements@reddit
Unironically, yes. It is on the occupier (Israel in this case) to ensure the safety of ALL residents, including those who aren't sympathetic to Israel. If Israel had offered citizenship and equal rights to Gazans then they wouldn't be under occupation, hence Hamas wouldn't have any lawful right to resist. Additionally, if Israel worked with the P.A. while ensuring a guaranteed path to statehood, it could've easily deprive Hamas of its popular support (as the only military resistance movement left at this point) and ensure that justice is served for any harm that comes to the innocent.
International law was designed around disincentivizing the occupation of peoples, you don't have a right to occupy people and then massacre them when they fight back. You have three choices more or less:
Continue occupying them (and under intl. law, they can fight back however they wish and aren't guilty of any crimes committed against enemy SOLDIERS.)
Offer citizenship and equal rights/integration to the people and annex them into your country so that they're no longer a stateless people.
Withdraw (after which point it's no longer your problem - see for instance Spains withdrawal from the West Sahara giving rise to a land dispute which no longer involves Spain in any way, shape or form)
Israel so far, remains on option #1, and I don't care how many hasbara bots talk about the 2005 ""withdrawal"", Israel was found by the UN to remain an occupying power due to the medieval siege they've imposed on Gaza. Gazans don't have the right to freely import, as everything they import from Egypt has to be inspected by Israeli customs as per the treaty/security pact between Israel and Egypt regarding the handover of the Sinai, this is how Israel refuses the importation of concrete and other essential goods into Gaza. They control the birth registry, telecoms, water desalination and other key aspects of what makes a sovereign state... sovereign. You don't NEED settlements to be an occupying power.
UndocumentedMartian@reddit
Man what a psychopath.
EternalMayhem01@reddit
No. Is it alright for Hamas to commit genocide in its wish to drive the Israelis into the Red Sea, from river to sea? Does Hamas' resistance give it the right to commit genocide? Commit genocide in self-defense?
UndocumentedMartian@reddit
Who has the nukes?
EternalMayhem01@reddit
What does nukes matter? You keep ducking the question on whether Hamas resistance gives it the right to commit war crimes and genocide. If you aren't going to answer I don't need to entertain your avoidance.
FabulousOcelot7406@reddit
They do have a right to resist. But, according to international law, it still has to conform to international law standards. So, stuff like hostage taking or targeting civilians like Hamas is doing are war crimes.
Mr-Anderson123@reddit
Same as Israel
EternalMayhem01@reddit
You already said though.
marvin_bender@reddit
"Barely phased" is relative. If that level of carnage were inflicted on us in the west we would commemorate it for 100 years. For those people it's just Tuesday.
Kharenis@reddit
It "helps" that they believe in a religion that tells them dying for the cause is a ticket straight to eternal paradise.
ShmoodyNo@reddit
This is just disgusting backwards orientalism.
marvin_bender@reddit
I don't see it, maybe you got me wrong. What I am saying is there is a very big difference to tolerating casualties. Today there are elections in Romania and both candidates had to promise to not send any troops in Ukraine, even for peacekeeping, because this is what the public wants.
I am not saying the lives of some are worth less in absolute terms.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war
Just look at all the leadership killed in Hamas, they need to x another sinwar.
Israel is certainly effective in destroying Hamas. Whether you like how they're going about it is a different discussion.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
Without an actual plan to remove Hamas from power and implement an alternative government Israel's offensive is pointless.
FabulousOcelot7406@reddit
It's not "pointless". Taking out experienced and capable leaders absolutely changes things. Revolutionary France without Napoleon is very different. Rome without Julius Caesar is very different. Many wars and trajectories in history change because of leadership.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
The removal of napoleon was not coupled with the removal of the French people from France.
FabulousOcelot7406@reddit
Neither is the removal of Hamas. Hamas is not Palestine.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
Israel’s leadership is openly planning the depopulation of Gaza.
FabulousOcelot7406@reddit
Yes, it seems like it. This is why they should have surrendered and renounced violence a long time ago. Long before October 7th.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
You believe Israel can ethnically cleanse its way to peace?
FabulousOcelot7406@reddit
I hope not. Ethnic cleansing is wrong and I am against it.
However, historically speaking, that is often how "peace" was made sadly. The weaker side just gets wiped out and the conflict goes away because of that.
iLegionLord@reddit
Not really, the offensive degrades Hamas’ offensive capabilities
Windreon@reddit
Pretty much everyone knows it's gonna be a forever war as long as Israel(Jews) hold Jerusalem.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
It’s been so effective that there are just as many Hamas members now as before the war. 2 more years of this and maybe Hamas membership will double.
Netanyahu deserves kudos for keeping Hamas well-armed and rolling in cash, I’m sure you’ll agree. Bennet and Lapid too.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
Quantity =/= quality
Unless of course you think Sinwar = 16 year old given a shitty rifle?
LiquorMaster@reddit
In 1939, Germany had 1.8 million soldiers. In January of 1945, Germany had nearly 3.6 million soldiers.
Without equipment, without training, without weapons, it doesn't matter about the size of the opposing force.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
How'd that work out for them? Because by the end of the war, the germans were using children as their soldiers cause all of their adult men were casualties
LiquorMaster@reddit
You're on the money and Hamas was already recruiting children pre-war.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
I'm aware, then they'd cry about Israel attacking children.
LiquorMaster@reddit
the children in question
And, honestly, the above just makes me sad.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
The whole situation is fucked. You have a repressive ideology by Hamas and the settlers. Then you have Israeli government wanting to appease them for votes so Netanyahu doesn't go to prison.
Then a whole bunch of people living in fear on both ends, fed reasons to hate, and all we see is bodies dropping. It does feel gross even discussing the subject so Laissez-faire as people pick sides, as id it's a sports team.
Just thinking of the brutality going on especially towards kids if not physically, than emotionally is sad.
LiquorMaster@reddit
Netanyahu needs to go to jail. Israel needs to be the one to rebuild Gaza. If nothing else, just to separate the children from the adults, for the majority of their formative years.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
They definitely need to have a hand in rebuilding, but probably need Arab peacekeepers, if they can find a trust worthy partner.
Also do whatever the allies did you Japan and Germany (2nd go around) to get that place right.
Stubbs94@reddit
You think these people who have been starved, raped and brutalised by the Israelis every day for nearly 20 months won't continue resisting the genocidal monsters that occupy them?
DrJamestclackers@reddit
They can continue all they want, it will be a losing battle. But keep pretending you want what's best for the Palestinians while cheering them on to martyr themselves for a bunch of islamists
valentc@reddit
So what's the solution? Keep killing Palestinians until they leave? You have no sympathy for these people, and love Israel, but want to act like Israel murdering them is the best possible option.
The best option imo is for Israel to stop, rebuild Gaza, and then annex it and allow anyone living there to be an Israeli citizen. But then Israel doesn't get it ethnostate, and the rapture cant happen. 😥
ADP_God@reddit
The solution was always for the Arabs to accept that they aren’t the only people who get to self determine in the Middle East and share.
UndocumentedMartian@reddit
The US can have an advanced military and universal healthcare but the billionaires don't want it to be the case. Universal healthcare would cost the government less than what healthcare costs now.
Hatch778@reddit
I mean they did kill a lot of Hezbollah leadership thereby weakening them and Iran. You think Iran isn't arming and supplying militias in the middle east? They talk shit about us interfering everywhere, but they certainly are not opposed to doing the same thing.
Stubbs94@reddit
Like, the US is arming militants in the middle east too.
Hatch778@reddit
Of course we do we arm the people we want to win and Russia and Iran and others arm the people they want to win. I mean if we don't we would basically be allowing them to install proxies unopposed. The question is who would you rather have as the leading powers Russia, China, and Iran or the US, Europe and the west.
cytokine7@reddit
I’m with you but you’re barking up the wring tree here. This subreddit is about as anti-west as it gets. Maybe ask if they would prefer chinese Hegemony or global Sharia law and you’ll get a more interesting debate.
valentc@reddit
I mean, the West is supporting one of the worst genocides since the Holocaust, and destroyed entire regions for a few dollars. Africa, the Middle East, and China are the way it is because of Western colonialism.
We don't know how bad China would be, but they cant be that much worse than America right?
Zipz@reddit
Jesus Christ
Let’s break this down
China is commiting a genocide against its own citizens but let’s ignore that right ??
valentc@reddit
The cultural genocide of the Ughyr? That's pretty awful, and not ok, but its an odd standard to have when arguing about ethics. The West is facilitating the genocide of Palestinians and did for many others they saw as lesser.
It's not like America has ever forced a group of people to lose their identities and conform to the state after killing their population.
Oh wait...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools?wprov=sfla1
Zipz@reddit
Weird how half your argument if from 100s of years ago when we are talking about true present
One more time
Currently China is directly doing a genocide against its own people. It’s really weird how you want to ignore that and pretend like it’s no biggie
It goes to show you have zero morals
valentc@reddit
Yeah, I didn't say it was ok. Maybe read the first sentence if you can.
I can't make you read, so if you want to keep misrepresenting what I said because it don't suck off the West, go ahead.
Zipz@reddit
One more time
China currently is doing a genocide against its own civillians
America is not
Weird how you want to ignore that important distinction and bitch about 200 years ago
valentc@reddit
Genocide is genocide, it doesn't matter if its their own citizens. By this logic the Native Americans genocide wasn't that bad because they weren't American citizens.
America is supporting the genocide in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing in West Bank. They're re currently supporting a genocide too.
N0riega_@reddit
Me when my tax dollars go to isreal so they can mass murder Palestinian with enough money evidence of genocide to bury a mountain 😴
Me when little to no evidence of uyghur “genocide” by big bad CCP 😡
Zipz@reddit
Jesus Christ look at you denying a genocide
N0riega_@reddit
Mf we’re both paying with OUR tax dollars the Isreali genocide of the Palestinians. We aren’t just denying genocide we’re actively supporting it.
Zipz@reddit
One more time
China is directly committing genocide against its own population.
N0riega_@reddit
Yeah I think you’re far too gone in the CIA blackhole. Good luck getting out.
Zipz@reddit
Thank you for showing you don’t care
N0riega_@reddit
I care of credible evidence that isn’t CIA backed. Didn’t know that was asking too much.
Zipz@reddit
Damn I wonder how much the CCP gives you to defend them.
Do they still give money or is it all social credit score points ?
N0riega_@reddit
I don’t need money to spread the truth. I also once believed China was or has committed a genocide against its Muslim population in the west but after even slightly digging into it. The picture of the reality became much clearer. At this point those who believe CIA propaganda are simply willfully ignorant.
Zipz@reddit
Perfect thank you for being a genocide denier
N0riega_@reddit
You sound just like a flatearther .
Hatch778@reddit
Uh yes things can get worse. You could have the dominant power actually want to take over countries and rule them look at Russia and Ukraine or the USSR. The Nazis wanted to do it, The Japanese wanted to do it, the USSR wanted to do it. You really think China isn't capable of doing worse due to what? Their sincere care for ethics?
N0riega_@reddit
This is the same type of liberal brainrot that upholds American hegemony. “America HAS to be number one because cHinA wOrSe”. China hasn’t done 1/10th of the worlds destruction as America has yet mf’s are still afraid.
Hatch778@reddit
They are just rising they haven't had as much of a chance. I can tell you it seems like they have less civil rights and ability to choose to their leader. Xi is not really accountable to his people he won't leave unless he gets forced out, But this country that doesn't even maintain basic rights for his citizens will somehow be more ethical than the US once they get in power surely.
N0riega_@reddit
Stop operating on the basis that any country gives a crap about ethics 🤦♂️
Hatch778@reddit
Well you see ethics plays a part. When you live in a democracy unlike China or Russia if you do something unethical the people might not like that and vote you out. So ethics might actually play a part if in your a country where you actually choose your leader.
N0riega_@reddit
You don’t live in a democracy mate. None of us do.
Hatch778@reddit
Uh plenty of nations vote in their leaders and they stay in only for set terms actually. You can argue nations like the US values some votes more then others and therefore its unfair, but it is way better then having a dictator for life.
N0riega_@reddit
That’s not what I mean. Im talking about bombing and destabilizing nations that voted a certain kind of way that isn’t in line with the west is Anti-democracy by nature.
Hatch778@reddit
That is not unique to the west. Russia just invaded Ukraine and China doesn't care how taiwan votes it is going to take it. I mean the west makes up the majority of countries that even care about democracy. I mean Russia and China obviously doesn't care about being anti-democratic considering they are not even democracies. Seems a bit hypocritical for dictators or kings to talk castigate the west for being anti-democratic
N0riega_@reddit
I don’t even know how to respond to this delusion. I never claimed the east is beacon of democracy. You’re basically saying “we have to destroy other nations because if we don’t others will do it instead.” That’s a very isreali mindset you have there friend.
Hatch778@reddit
I mean others are doing it right now as we speak regardless of what we do. We don't have to destroy nations, but if Iran is funneling weapons and training to one militia it would be immoral for us to support an opposing militia? What if the opposing militia would be better for their country should we still not interfere? Countries are fucking around with other countries all over the world.
valentc@reddit
We have no idea how bad China might be, but we know how bad the United States ethics are.
America genocided Native Americans before we ever became an international power. We had brutal slavery until 1865 and then still treated anyone brown like shit. We support the Saudi Arabian and Qatari dictatorship that allows slavery.
America's hegemony is built on the exploitation of people we view as lesser.
Hatch778@reddit
Like Iran and north Korea is any better. If we are gonna go back 100s of years you can find shit on every country it is really not relevant today. Here is the thing you can't vote out xi. You don't have the same rights as you would in America. You think they are gonna treat foreigners better then their own citizens? I mean I get it your comfortable and America is powerful and they did these terrible things. You can call them out on it. Try that in Russia and China. You think anyone is gonna scream about your rights or due process?
valentc@reddit
I didn't say they were. It is relevant. Native Americans are absolutely still feeling the effects of America's imperialism. They still need to fight back when companies and the government push harmful practices in their land.
You cant vote out Trump.
America doesn't treat foreigners like their own citizens. Have you been keeping up with the news? Its not 2021 anymore. We're literally deporting people to a torture prison for not being citizens.
You can do that in China, mass protests arent allowed, but you can disagree with the government. I dont agree with all of Chinas policies towards protesting, but many students have been deported for protesting America and Israel.
Idk why you're using Russia, Iran, or North Korea like it's relevant. Why not use Cuba too? You just named random adversaries. Lol
Hatch778@reddit
You brought up US support for the Saudis and Qatar as a negative of the US. If Trump actually becomes a dictator I will cede the point as of now we are still a democracy. Yes and deporting people to a torture is wrong and there is an outcry and news about it unlike Russia and China where you wouldn't hear a word and if someone did see something you really think the newspaper is going to print it? Deporting protestors is outrageous to us meanwhile China or Russia can beat and Imprison them or outright kill them. Remember the tank. Oh you don't like Xi well too bad unless the military stages a coup he is in there as long as he wants. It makes the country more dangerous because the people in charge are less accountable to anyone else. If the US does something bad the president might be voted out. China or Russia? give me a break.
Hatch778@reddit
I like how no one actually says they would prefer China, Iran, or Russia. Of course they wouldn't as bad as everyone says the US everyone knows the others are worse lol.
Stubbs94@reddit
Given the harm the US has done to every single continent on earth.... Why would anyone want you as the leading powers?
Hatch778@reddit
Because we are better then the alternatives? If you can somehow get Sweden or something in charge that would be great, but the real choices are the US, China, or Russia. Which do you think is better? You wanna tell me Chinese hedgemony would be the moral choice?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The whole premise of this is stupid. The world would be better off if the US, China and Russia were all weaker. Not having a single dominant power would be better.
Stubbs94@reddit
China doesn't overthrow democratically elected governments and replace them with fascist death squads...
Hatch778@reddit
Of course they don't since they consider the self determination of people so important, unless it's Hong Kong or Taiwain, or Tibet. They don't even respect the rights of their of own citizens, but your sure they would be better huh? You think China hasn't supported some dictators or countries with terrible human right violations? Is overthrowing a government a terrible thing while supporting dictators who abuse their citizens is fine?
Stubbs94@reddit
You think the US cares about "self determination"?
Hatch778@reddit
Probably not with other countries no unless it benefits them. The thing is the US at least tries to appear decent so citizens back home dont yell at them while China and Russia really don't give a fuck. Lets say a war happened and your country got conquered. Would you rather live under US occupation or Chinese occupation. I know which one I would choose.
Stubbs94@reddit
Mate, what the actual fuck are you on about. Are you that clueless about the history of your own country?
Hatch778@reddit
What part of history? Are you talking about self determination and the civil war bit. Not quite the same considering Taiwan has been independent quite a while. After the south seceded it was immediate war. Now tell me more about how terrible the US is and how much better off the world would be under such noble and free societies such as China and Russia.
Stubbs94@reddit
The US has denied so many countries their right to self determination if they dare to nationalise any part of their economy.
Hatch778@reddit
Our main rival the USSR was doing the same thing. The difference is if the US sat by itself and the USSR won you would be arrested for posting against the government. That's what I mean when I say the US was the best option. You think the USSR absent the US would stop from taking europe? Do you think they cared about self determination? I mean it is nice being protected by US military, because you don't have to actually pay for your own security and you can be blame free under our protection.
Stubbs94@reddit
You've really bought into American exceptionalism haven't you? An imperialist regime like America should not be unrivalled or unchecked, it literally only operates in the interests of capital.
Hatch778@reddit
I mean we are not unrivalled or unchecked. We compete against China and Russia they are just worse then we are. Saying America is the best current option is not really exceptionalism when the alternatives are so bad. Make a global power that is more free and fair then the US and I would be fine with it. I would be more than happy to be able to have US step back.
valentc@reddit
Are they? America is currently throwing people into an international prison for disagreeing with the president and we aren't allowing due process for them.
The US had destabilized entire regions to keep the petrodollar and its hegemony alive. We've destroyed countries for saying they don't want to be under the US heel anymore.
I would have agreed with this like 5-10 years ago, but America just elected a man who's very open about his hatred for the constitution and the people living here.
Hatch778@reddit
Yeah but unlike Russia and China he is going to be out in a few years. I am not saying we haven't done bad things, I am just saying we are the best available option. You can criticize trump here and not have to worry about getting arrested. It is wrong to be denied due process but the fact we are outraged about it instead of just accepting it as a fact of life like we would in Russia or China is telling
valentc@reddit
Will he? You're more hopeful than me. He's also done so much damage that it will take decades to rebuild if it's even possible. The soft power America has built up since WW2 ins completely gone.
That's changing.
What are you talking about? We're protesting the same way as always. Peacefully. That allows the government to ig roe us.
Have any of these protests worked yet? Has Abrego Garcia been released yet because of the protests? Has the US stopped sending weapons to Israel yet?
Our protests are being ignored because theyre told us for years that being quiet and peaceful is the best way to go. That MLK just stood on the side of the road until the civil right axt was passed.
Americans aren't angry yet.
Hatch778@reddit
I mean you didn't get rounded up and arrested and sent to prison. I think you have a rosy view of what life is like in these other countries. Forget about your protest being heard you can get beaten and thrown in prison elsewhere.
Walking_0n_eggshells@reddit
Well I’m currently not allowed to enter the US because I’m trans…
Zipz@reddit
No they just commiting a genocide against their own citizens.
Shellz2bellz@reddit
We got a live one…
reddit4ne@reddit
It appears the world is siding with China. Even Canada wants out . He'll even ISRAEL is cozying up to China, which is delicious betrayal, U.S blew its power supporting Israel only to have Israel sell them out to China hahahahahahaha. As for Russia and Iran, they are really not that important. China is the new superpower. Iran is nothing really and Russia can barely match Turkey in terms wealth and projection of power anymore. Russia is a decent cog in the move away from the U.S. dollar as a trade and foreign reserve currency, but it's not really essential and is not even as influential as Saudi Arabia economically.
Iran is also a decent cog or ally in the move against the U..S and it's currency but again it's not a leaders. The leaders are China first a foremost, then the Gulf countries and some.of the emerging economies in S. America and Afr8ca, then Russia and Iran mostly just for weapons trading and gold for some reason. Turkey is floating around there somewhere playing everybody as it never let's go of the the dream of building yet another large empire.
West Europe is looking for a soft landing but it's economies are mostly in trouble longterm and East Europe is, as always, just trying to keep their head above water.
This is just typical American not understanding the world is already passing them by.
The world is resoundingly sid8ng with the China Russia Iran axis. Financially politically everything.
China is a lot less overbearing and domineering than the U.S. As the world moves away from the dollar, U.S. is becoming irrelevant and fast.
Doesn't help when the U.S. pisses odd it'd own trade partners and allies like they just did with the tariff idiocy. Like the kid uninviting people to hisnparty that nobody wants to come to anymore anyways lmao, that's the U.S. right now, and some of it is because it blew its treasure and wealth fight8ng in the Middle East for Israel's sake.
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
The tariffs are several thousand times more important in geopolitical terms than anything the US has done in the middle east
didthathurtalot@reddit
That's far too reasonable. They don't really arm people they want to win, it's mostly about destabilising the region. No one wants anyone to win because that would mean a loss of dependence on weapon dealers.
Hatch778@reddit
I mean arms sales to these militants probably isn't a large enough amount of money to justify purposefully keeping these wars going. It is not like we are giving them Jets or Tanks. Hard to see how destablising the region would be more beneficial then having your guy in control.
didthathurtalot@reddit
Because you want the dictator to keep buying your guns, the rebels don't matter.
cytokine7@reddit
Literally what they just said
Killeroftanks@reddit
They say they did, Hezbollah says otherwise and Israel isn't known for telling the truth. It's likely they killed a dozen or so members for the hundreds hurt and killed.
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
Hezbollah got wrecked
They made a separate peace after pledging not to, they evacuated Lebanon south of the Litani, they lost much of their domestic political power in Lebanon and they couldn't save Assad from destruction.
Hezbollah was supposed to be one of the strongest armed forces in the middle east. They were supposed to deter Israel with their giant arsenal of missiles- missiles which were supposed to wreck all the infrastructure in Israel if war came. But war came and all they did was shell border villages while they were shredded by Israeli airstrikes. You can't recover from that- not for a decade at least. The fear is gone.
dummypod@reddit
The only way to destroy Hamas for sure is to kill or remove every Palestinian in the Gaza Strip. Which leads to where we are now.
jj2jj2aa@reddit
Yep hamas will dig in and hide among the population, so evacuate them to lybia
paddyo@reddit
Or maybe don’t conduct ethnic cleansing of an entire population, I am shocked I have to say in the 21st century
ADP_God@reddit
What do you do when Hamas is committed to ethnically cleansing Israelis? Are they just mandated to accept the forever war?
Stubbs94@reddit
Everyone in Gaza? At least you don't hide your support for full ethnic cleansing.
NeonArlecchino@reddit
That's not true. He also wants to stay out of jail.
ADP_God@reddit
If you think this is the reason you don’t have universal healthcare in America I have a bridge to sell you…
jj2jj2aa@reddit
I'd say things are coming along nicely, they're an insurgency that uses humans shields and hides among civilians so what do you expect?
Taxpayer money very well spent, and getting rid of hamas is doing gazans a favor just like getting rid of nazis was for germans
valentc@reddit
Lol, most people don't like theyre taxes being spent on wars that don't involve them.
Why? How does the genocide of Gaza help the West? Israel doesn't help us, and hinders speech in the US.
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
They didn't plan for it and a plan matters more than all of the weapons combined. They did plan for Hezbollah and the plan worked.
We already spend much more on government healthcare than we do on the military budget (and the military budget includes healthcare for a few million people anyway, so...).
This is a talking point that was true at one time but hasn't been true since about 1993
frizzykid@reddit
It doesn't really matter if there were believed to be about 30,000 members of hamas or Al qasam brigades or 2,000,000 when every day children in Gaza wake up without family food or anyone there to protect them besides the survivors around them.
Israel literally took out the entire command structure of hamas in the first few months of the war and has spent the last year essentially hunting down the remnants. There is no largely organized structure of hamas left if there ever was one.
When it comes to identifying them as hamas or not, everyone is hamas because of what is stated above. It's like the US in Afghanistan with the taliban, eventually everyone who lived in the mountains we bombed became the taliban. Same with the Soviets with the mujihadeen. It's why they made little mines that looked like toys, so children would become disabled and rather than fight for the mujihadeen they take care of their kids and it forced the families into the cities the Soviets occupied.
ScootieJr@reddit
Just want to fix one thing you said. “All that advanced weaponry the US Government spent their citizen’s tax dollars on.” Majority of us US citizens are tired of them sending weapons and spending money on Israel. Citizens aren’t the ones spending our taxes, Congress and Trump are.
Sillyoldman88@reddit
Funny you should say that
https://www.ynetnews.com/business/article/sjnrvpe11le
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Or pay for it's unlawful occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. U.N and humanitarian actors have(for very good reasons mind you) subsidized the cost of healthcare, civil administration, and education among many other services that they would be obligated to provide if nothing else to prevent a unprecedented uprising and unrest would have utterly destroyed the state budget of Israel as it exists today, and it's without a doubt why despite the formal banning of UNRWA there's no large scale enforcement in shutting down their schools in the West Bank because the Israeli security apparatus like Shin Bet realize it'd be a massive recruitment boom for the various armed groups that exists in the area today and could significantly increase the likelihood of a massive uprising in the West Bank that's been described as a literal pressure cooker for at absolute minimum half a decade by those with a hand on the pulse of Palestinian civil society.
lan60000@reddit
This is what sieging looks like, and why Switzerland is considered extremely difficult to conquer even today. Modern technology translates mostly to more efficient destruction with better accuracy on top of that. this isn't the movies.
Caffeywasright@reddit
What damage do you think “the people in Yemen” did?
Derfel1995@reddit
Please, tell me more about free health care in the US prior to 1973
zjaffee@reddit
Universal healthcare in the US would cost 1000x the money that the US spends on anything relating to Israel. This is the single most annoying point people keep repeating. Medicare for all would cost 38 trillion over 10 years, Israel gets 38 billion over 10 years.
Zipz@reddit
Actually if anything plenty of studies have shown the US would save money switch
zjaffee@reddit
It will save money over the long term, short term would cost the same if not more due to difficulties switching over. Regardless that has nothing to do with existing government spending.
wonwonwo@reddit
Propaganda works. Broaden your horizons when it comes to the information you consume.
juandebuttafuca@reddit
If we had universal healthcare, we could give even more money to Israel.
AintNoGrave2020@reddit
All this bombing and ongoing siege is not going to wipe Hamas. It’s going to strengthen them. You go to someone’s home and starve them, beat them, block off their water and food, bomb them and get surprised if there’s retaliation? With all offense intended: Piss off.
And it’s obvious Israel isn’t interested in finishing Hamas off they need a reason to continue carpet bombing Gaza.
FabulousOcelot7406@reddit
The point is not to wipe out Hamas. The point is to weaken them and make them toothless.
As an analogy, the Mafia still exists in the USA. However, they are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be and are, effectively, defeated.
Hatch778@reddit
How exactly is Hamas stronger after getting bombed to hell and losing leadership? Their main ally Hezbollah also got blown the hell up. I mean killing and kidnapping 100s of Israeli civilians is what led to this. Much like not all Gazans are responsible for Hamas actions not all Israelis are responsible for Israel's so Hamas widespread terrorist attacks on civilians is not retaliation. Why would Palestinians rush to join Hamas when they have been in power for 20 years while peoples lives in Gaza has only got worse.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
What led to this is decades of occupation, blockades, abuses, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, infanticide, apartheid, rape, torture and starvation by Israel.
History didn’t start on October 7.
Hatch778@reddit
Come on man it is not like Palestinians were sitting there peacefully the whole the time. They have both been killing each other for decades. Your making it sound like Israel is some incredibly evil nation who enjoys murdering babies when in reality this has been ongoing conflict over land. Of course history didn't start on October 7, but Israel wouldn't currently be invading Gaza and bombing Hamas if it didn't happen. They would be far more able to play up noble resistance bit if they were not murdering and kidnapping civilians while celebrating on tape.
deucedeucerims@reddit
Over Palestinian land that Israelis have stolen
Do you think the native Americans weren’t right to fight about against settler colonialism
HuDragon@reddit
When did it start then? I hope you aren’t going to tell me 1948 and pretend that everyone was living peacefully before 1948, implying that the state of Israel’s existence is the problem.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Especially since Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan the West Bank until 1967. Funny how you don't hear about the aspirations of a Palestinian state during THAT time.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Israel has made sure that Hamas has the literal textbook ideal situation to take advantage of by counter-terrorism experts around the world.
1) a massive population of traumatized, angry young men(Over 50 procent of the entire population of Gaza is under 18 years old)
2) No reasonable future prospects of a meaningfully better life
3) None to very little social safety net since virtually the entire civil society including for many extended family connections have ceased to exist as daily life turned into a struggle of pure survival
4) No remaining educational systems whatsoever
5) Virtually everyone with a legitimate grevience towards a perceived enemy(Having friends and families you know blown up on a near daily basis).
Blinken also announced just before he left the State Department that Hamas had recruited almost as many fighters as they had lost throughout the war, and that's when the conditions and deprivation where many Gazans are struggling to survive on a daily basis so yeah, Hamas and other armed extremists groups have excellent prospects of thriving in the conditions that Israel has put in place.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
This time is different. There will be no external support.
Even food aid will have to go through Israel's strict watch.
Surrounded by settlers and Israeli, who have definitely not forgotten the October 7th attack and are armed to the teeth.
Some settlers/Israeli even cross border just to harass local Palestinians.
They may revolt, but there's nothing left this time. It has truly become an open-air prison wherein they can't even rebuild without being watched by IDF.
Before, Gaza at least had some self-governing capabilities and international support.
valentc@reddit
It already does. Aid hasn't been allowed into Haza for over 3 months now.
The settlers are Israeli, but they're over in West Bank killing Palestinians for their homes. Not sitting at the border fence.
Not into Gaza, its been cut off since 2006. West Bank is constantly harried by settlers. They've taken more almd and killed more people in the past 2 years than ever before.
Its been that way since 2006. Israel has decided who is allowed in and out, who's allowed to work, who's allowed to live, and what food they're allowed to eat.
No... no it didn't. Its relied on international aid since 2006. They also have more support than ever from non-profits and sympathizers. The issue is that Israel isnt allowing into the region.
You seriously don't understand the situation in the region, and think Israel is just now wanting to erase Palestinians because of Oct 7th, and not for being Muslims who live where Israel doesn't want them.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
I mean what else would you call "Muslims who live where Israel doesn't want them"
Hatch778@reddit
Is this sudden influx of angry untrained men actually going to make a difference though? I mean sure it gives them bodies to throw at Israeli's, but we both know they can't actually win a war against them. I would hardly call Hamas situation ideal considering their city is a pile of rubble and the bright spot is you have plenty of traumatized civilians with nothing to live for joining.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
Everyone knows your military gets stronger when you're logistics are cut off......
So how are they going to re-arm to the extent before?
How are they going to finance it?
So the new leaders are going to have the same connections as the old leadership?
BlackJesus1001@reddit
The closest thing Hamas has to heavy weapons is made from unexploded Israeli bombs/shells.
Gazan children have been getting shot for throwing rocks for decades.
What the fuck does it matter if they run out of weapons? They die the same way that they were dying yesterday, last year and the last 20 years before that.
They can't realistically leave unless they want to die separated from everyone they've known and they don't know any other life.
Stubbs94@reddit
You're not understanding how resistance to occupations work.
fartymcgeezax@reddit
You guys have this romantic notion that the underdog is gonna come back swinging and it’s just stupid. I find it shocking how eager the Irish are to draw parallels between yourselves and an internationally recognized terrorist org.
ADP_God@reddit
The Irish refused to take up army against the Germans in WWII. It’s all pretty consistent.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
How heroic of you to want the palestinians to fight to the last man!
juandebuttafuca@reddit
If they surrender, that would just allow the zionists alone to pick the time and place of their extermination.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
So Israel was extermination Palestinians before 10/7?
juandebuttafuca@reddit
Not as quickly, but yes they absolutely were. And if they weren't then, they surely are now and my point remains.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
It doesn't because the population growth was faster than anywhere else in the world pre-war and has grown 6% despite the conflict.
Any civilian deaths are tragic and I'm not trying to dismiss. But the number of deaths vs fire power at Israel's disposal indicates the opposite.
valentc@reddit
That doesn't mean anything. Apartheid states don't require decimation until they get too uppity. Then you kill a few to let them know whose boss.
Oh, you think Israel was a kind occupier? Thats adorable ignorant.
Except you are by excusing the horrific conditions Palestinians in Gaza were/are in. You think "well theyre having sex, so clearly they're fine" and disregard the situation in the region to suck off Israel.
You're also completely at odds with scholars and humanitarians, but hey, maybe Israel will finally recognize your efforts.
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
The Irish should understand how important it is for an insurgency to be able to access weapons and other supplies
cytokine7@reddit
You’re the one who doesn’t understand. Weapons, supplies, and experience matters much more than pure numbers of willing fighters. You think a bunch of teenagers could have pulled off October 7th by themselves?
ImAjustin@reddit
It’s wild to read on social media how ppl think this is a movie. You’ll see! Hamas will continue on forever and ever! They’ll bounce back stronger and win!
Proper-Community-465@reddit
Given the sheer amount of indoctrination and poor education in Gaza they were already super extreme on there hatred of Israel. If anything the fear might hold some of them back.
Stubbs94@reddit
The Palestinians in Gaza are actually highly educated. They literally have some of the highest literacy rates in the region.
Proper-Community-465@reddit
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282293791_Norms_for_the_Standard_Progressive_Matrices_in_the_Gaza_Strip
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/pisa-2022-results-volume-i-and-ii-country-notes_ed6fbcc5-en/palestinian-authority_78667ea0-en.html
The average Gazan child is mentally retarded. All of the test scores across the board are far below average. If you use western standards of functional illiteracy only around 23% qualify. This was all tested before the war.
valentc@reddit
IQ isnt literacy, and if you read the study instead of just linking it, you would see that there are many factors as to why Gazans arent as smart as British children.
Your second no isn't even about Gaza, and those scores aren't as bad as you think they are. Again, if you read the article, it goes into it. Its also specifically about 15 year olds.
Neither of these are about literacy, but you didn't read either link, so how would you know?
The 20-year blockade has had a way bigger impact than Hamas did.
Proper-Community-465@reddit
The second study was for all of Palestine under UNWRA testing with only 23% of them having a level 2 reading which would constitute functional literacy. The 99% literacy rate comes from the Palestinian Central Bureau with no testing to back it up. I've read the study many of the causes are theorized to be linked to poor life quality. Still falls back on Hamas since the blockade and military incursions were a direct response to them repeatedly attacking Israel. Just like how the current war is a direct response to Oct 7th. There are similar studies showing the constant rocket alarms from Gaza shooting at Israel is giving Israeli kids PTSD.
valentc@reddit
've read the study many of the causes are theorized to be linked to poor life quality. Still falls back on Hamas since the blockade and military incursions were a direct response to them repeatedly attacking Israel
Good god, the ignorance. Israel has allowed Hamas to prosper and helped them win in 2006. Its 100,000,000% on israel to end the blockade and stop murdering Palestinians.
Wow. This really shows where your sympathy lies. You want to bring up PTSD for Israeli children while Gazan children starve and lose their families? Even if they survive, they'll ever live normal lives. They dont even get an alarm besides a giant explosion.
But you're over here worried about Israeli kids being scared of an alarm.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Proper-Community-465@reddit
How exactly did Israel help Hamas win? The blockade and sanctions we're at least initially offered to be lifted if Hamas would be peaceful. When your government's entire platform is destroying their stronger neighbor who they keep attacking they're going to be consequences.
valentc@reddit
Gaza has some of the most educated people on the planet. They had a 99% literacy rate before Oct 7th.
Idk why you think they're any more "indoctrinated" than an Israeli who thinks Palestinians are dirty animals.
Proper-Community-465@reddit
I'll repost this from my earlier comment
The 99% literacy rate stat is self reported from Palestine and about as reliable as North Korea and China being the happiest places on earth. Actual testing shows a very different story.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282293791_Norms_for_the_Standard_Progressive_Matrices_in_the_Gaza_Strip
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/pisa-2022-results-volume-i-and-ii-country-notes_ed6fbcc5-en/palestinian-authority_78667ea0-en.html
The average Gazan child is mentally retarded. All of the test scores across the board are far below average. If you use western standards of functional literacy only around 23% qualify. This was all tested before the war. Hamas running Gaza was a disaster for education.
Waffles86@reddit
Tbh there’s a fair amount of indoctrination in Israel too against Arabs
imunfair@reddit
That logic worked so well for us in the middle east. Israel is going to learn the same lesson, since their answer for any aggression is to try to attack harder. Eventually you run out of strength or run into a bigger bully, like when they tried it with Iran recently and Iran broke their air defenses and outright told them to sit down and shut up.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
You understand the difference between bringing freedom to a different continent and making sure your next neighbor can't launch attacks on you anymore?
Let me ask you would it be easier for the US to fight a war next door than across the globe? Would we have a better understanding of the cultures?
imunfair@reddit
When you're a tiny nation in the middle of the ottoman empire there really is no difference, both scenarios are fucking around in a place you shouldn't, trying to defeat an idea with military force and finding out you just generate more hate and opposition.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
Look how powerful Nazi Germany, ww2 Japan, ISIS, and Al Quada currently are.
You may not be able to erase an idea, but you certainly can decimate it to the point of it being a minor inconvenience
imunfair@reddit
Two of those are nations, and two we gave up fighting because we couldn't beat them. Although I will give you that ISIS isn't on the streak they were when they had the meteoric rise a while back. Russia will take a lot of the credit for that though if you ask them, so the actual force behind that decline is up for debate depending on your geopolitical perspective. Same with WW2 actually.
So from a western lens yeah they "don't exist" any longer because we're no longer involved with them, but they're still there thriving in the same bubbles they were before we interfered. It's more of a media trick than an actual win though, we fled and stopped publicizing their presence and hope that everyone forgets we didn't win since they never really mattered to our security being on the other side of the world and all, we were just annoyed we couldn't project power into their space.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
What are you talking about? Also Quada was basically destroyed, your probably thinking of the Taliban, who protected Al Quada after 9/11.
Who takes credit isn't fhe point. The point is if you decimate a group enough they will no longer have power.
Thriving seems to be used very loosely here. Existing and thriving are very different things..
This is just absurd babbling trying to justify why you don't think Israel should continue to fuck up Hamas.
ISIS is primarily relegated to fringe areas and camps. Al Quada isn't nearly as strong or imposing since there leaders were all killed. Before 9/11 there were countless fears of OBL and his terrorist network
You do understand destroying doesn't mean making the entire concept wiped from the face of the earth right? That's an absurd impossibility.
imunfair@reddit
For two decades, $4-6 trillion dollars and the best military and intelligence capabilities in the world we couldn't do better than somewhat degrading them. So yes I think that's a good indication Israel is on the path to FAFO, given they're a smaller nation with a lot more angry neighbors to recruit from not including several million very angry people left in Gaza.
And just to put that dollar amount in perspective for you - that's enough money we literally could have build high speed rail from NY to Chicago to LA and also down to Texas. It's an absolutely absurd amount of money that most people can't even wrap their heads around, and it wasn't enough to outspend some determined terrorists. If you want you can probably find some of the old discussions from a decade or two ago on the various mega-projects we could have accomplished rather than dropping bombs on the other side of the world for two decades, some of them are pretty interesting.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
Somewhat degrading who? Hamas? Maybe Israel didn't care too much about Hamas until 10/7. Hamas launched rockets for years at Israel too. Hamas went to far and truly FAFO'd
Those people can be angry all they want, they throw rocks, and then get popped as a response. But at least they'll have western libs cheering them on!
No one is arguing money can be used to help people as opposed to blowing them up. It's too bad Hamas started 10/7 otherwise maybe the leadership would still be living that billionare life, instead of 6 ft under, and israel could have built there high speed rail from NY to LA....
Thanks for pointing out money can be used for a lot of things.
imunfair@reddit
wtf are you talking about. Clearly I was referring to the war on terror - we were literally just talking about ISIS and Al Qaeda in the part I quoted, I can't imagine how you misinterpreted all those statistics as somehow being relevant to Hamas unless you aren't actually from the United States.
DrJamestclackers@reddit
I just didn't think anybody would be dumb. Enough to say that al qaeda is are just somewhat degraded, they're fucking destroyed, not somewhat degraded.
Here we go, where am I from..? Israel, is that where this is going?
Hatch778@reddit
You were impressed by Iran's response lately? I mean the US killed their top general and they accidently shot down their own plane then performed a minor attack on a base. Israel blew up all of hezbollah and even assisinated people in Iran and again Iran performed a largely performative attack. Lets be real Iran is trying to buy time till they can get a nuke. They occasionally have to make a strike that doesn't actually do anything to show their support for their proxy after Hezbollahs leader got blown up.
imunfair@reddit
They did that, then Israel slapped them back, then Iran busted Israel's air defense as I already mentioned, and then Israel sat there doing nothing until the US installed a THAAD system a couple weeks later so they could feel more secure, and then Israel did a performative attack on Iran because they had to have the last word.
The fact that Israel sat there doing nothing until we sent US soldiers to physically defend their airspace tells you yes, it worked. And it was a small fraction of Iran's missile stockpile, just enough to prove a point, if they had wanted to hit more than the military site they could have since at that point the AD was saturated and anything else over the limit was getting through.
That's why Iran told Israel that next time they would hit infrastructure across Israel if they didn't stop, and it wasn't just a threat, they had just proven they had the capability. Israel's strategy of always needing to have the last word is foolish, I guarantee that won't be the last time it bites them in the ass.
Hatch778@reddit
I mean firing basically a warning shot after their consulate and nasrallah got blown up is just not very scary. Kind of like when Trump blew up their top general then they accidentally shot down their own plane and again performed a small attack on a US base. I think they really don't want to do anything that might cause a war before they finish their nukes and I think Israel really wants to get the US to go to war with them before they finish it.
imunfair@reddit
Why are you repeating that, I already acknowledged that as part of the whole series of events above. Yeah it wasn't meant to be scary, it was meant to de-escalate the situation and save face domestically in Iran.
Iran gave us several days warning so that we could shoot down the cruise missiles before they even got to Israel, it was a win for both sides, and then Israel went and did the stupid thing and tried to have the last word, so Iran laid a real smackdown on them and told them to sit down and shut up.
You just keep repeating the same couple incidents and ignoring the rest of the sequence of events surrounding them. Although I will agree with you that Israel is trying to get the US to fight Iran for them, because they know they can't do it themselves and they love to use us as their bully/shield, like they did when we sent carrier groups to ward off their neighbors while they kicked the shit out of Gaza. Blinken was running around the middle east for weeks warning countries not to intervene.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Iran hit an Air Force base with at least 20 missiles and were supposedly aiming for Mossad and Unit 8200 HQs. I’m sure that Israel would admit if the damage was significant, although it is odd that Israel banned all reporting of the strikes…
Hatch778@reddit
Considering that was a response to blowing up an Iranian consulate killing multiple commanders and blowing up nasrallah yeah that is kind of light. Iran is going to lay low till they get a nuke.
Augustus_Chevismo@reddit
Gaza being bombed into oblivion and it’s population being mass starved somehow isn’t going to not only not weaken Hamas but somehow make them stronger?
AintNoGrave2020@reddit
I believe you misunderstood me. My point being was that if they continue their siege Palestinians will side more with Hamas because if they finish Hamas a new group will emerge. Hamas maybe terrorists for the west but they are actually fighting back for the land that was taken away from them. They are fighting for against the barbaric israeli government trying to finish off everyone in the Gaza strip
Augustus_Chevismo@reddit
I can see why you’d assume that but you’re completely wrong.
Gazans are now openly protesting against Hamas to end the war despite violent consequences.
This wasn’t something occurring before the war as Hamas had support and it was dangerous to go against the regime.
tkhrnn@reddit
Ending a war before absolute victory is what will allow Hamas to remaim. The Japanese weren't fans of the US after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Palestinians aren't going to like Israel any time soon. Doesn't mean they will maintain the conflict.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Yeah, look at Vietnam. Total victory…
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
To be fair, the government the US supported in Vietnam, just like Afghanistan, was highly incompetent.
So, add US violations and brutality + supporting incompetent and corrupt government = disaster in the making.
Israel isn't incompetent. They're pretty good at this. Even the Syrian Druze does not complain much about Israel presence, be it fear, indifference, or support.
AintNoGrave2020@reddit
Japan and USA is a totally different story. This conflict dates back to 1948 from the Nakba where the atrocities began.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Any news that involves a release of hostages and any length of ceasefire and aid distribution is good news.
That being said, Israel likely will reject this. This proposal is timed to try to prevent the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation from taking over aid in Gaza which is the plan where Palestinians have to all huddle near 4 distribution centers to get aid. We know this is the intent because Hamas could easily have made this proposal last month.
My guess is that Hamas plans to release hostages for a temporary ceasefire every time aid runs out and the GHF tries to take over aid distribution, which could prolong this situation for at least until the end of this year.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
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We've found 356 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
Associated Press News (Leans Left): "Israel launches a new military operation in Gaza to pressure Hamas to release hostages"
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The Straits Times (Leans Right): "Rescuers say 100 dead as Israel launches ‘extensive strikes’ in fresh Gaza offensive"
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