No evidence of genocide in Gaza, UK lawyers say in arms export case
Posted by Azurmuth@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 273 comments
Posted by Azurmuth@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 273 comments
PickleMortyCoDm@reddit
Does it have to be genocide for people to do something or can we collectively agree, whatever the label we want to put on Israel's actions, that they're really damn bad and something needs to be done?
og_toe@reddit
it should not be this controversial to say ”killing people is bad”. like, i don’t care if you think they’re the biggest terrorist jew haters in the world you still can’t kill people based on fear of them
apndrew@reddit
You can kill them if those "terrorist jew haters" massacered over 1200 of your citizens, kidnapped hundreds and then promised to do it "again and again and again." It's called starting a war and facing the consequences of your actions.
ShootmansNC@reddit
Brenton Tarrant, aren't you supposed to be in jail?
apndrew@reddit
Right, because being opposed to a genocidal massacre makes someone a serial killer.
ShootmansNC@reddit
You're defending a genocide of palestinians because you hate arabs.
You're spreading the same kind of hateful narrative that empowerers murderers like Brenton.
apndrew@reddit
WTF!!! Where did I say I hate Arabs? Project much?
ShootmansNC@reddit
Don't be disingenuous.
Your comment history is public and your beliefs are very clear.
apndrew@reddit
Yeah, and I have never said anything against Arabs. Just the ones that happily kill a minority group.
og_toe@reddit
nothing justifies a genocide ever. you can’t kill civilians just because your civilians were killed
apndrew@reddit
So Hamas should get a pass for their 10/7 genocide of Jews because they are poorly armed and lack resources? They shouldn't have attacked a nation with vastly more resources in the first place, or perhaps they should end the viokence by, gasp, releasing the hotsages and surrendering.....
As to exchange rate, no war in history has been balanced. Arab terrorists killed 2,996 people during 9/11, and in response America killed, by most estmates, at least 4.5 million people (including 1 million+ civillians). So by that measure, Israel's war is pretty tame.
og_toe@reddit
i think it’s also important to note than terrorism ≠ genocide. genocide is the extermination of, or forcible dislocation of an ethnic group. while israelis were victims of a terrorist act, it doesn’t fit the official definition of a genocide the way israel’s actions do since israel is essentially in control over the whole area, and where the amount of destruction and death inflicted upon the entirety of the population is slowly leading to their full demise.
of course hamas shouldn’t have attacked, that’s obvious, but also not a justification for this type of answer by israel. it’s one thing to take out hamas, and another when your politicians are starting to talk about wiping out the area and even claiming it’s defensible to kill children if they are seen as opposed to the state of israel. that’s straight up heinous and it shouldn’t be controversial to say that killing people is absolutely wrong no matter what - especially when those people do not fulfill the criteria for an armed combatant, making it a war crime.
i think the example of the american wars is a good one. the 2003 iraq war for example had the intent to topple the ba'athist regime and official death tolls are at around 30k american deaths and 40-60k iraqi deaths - which are combatants. the difference between such a war, where civilians might deaths might occur as a ”side effect”, and a genocide, is that a genocide is carried out without discrimination based on character of a person in order to get rid of a population through murder or dislocation. while the american wars were mainly focused on legitimate military targets (even though war crimes and human rights abuses happened), israel is seen creating a destruction of gaza that would be practically impossible for them to recover from, while at the same time withholding food and electricity, and murdering service personnel. further, israeli politicians have openly stated that they wish to see the gaza strip wiped out, that children are legitimate targets if they are thought to oppose israel, speaking of the expansion of israeli territory, and allowing settlers to move to areas that have been purposefully restricted from habitation previously, not to mention the settlers waiting to move into gaza. a war happens between two military powers, but gazan civilians aren’t military powers and starvation of a population is not a legitimate warfare tactic. gazan people cannot flee, unlike for example syrians or ukrainians, yet israel does not take this into account during their strikes.
apndrew@reddit
Hundreds of legal experts, jurists and heads of state disagree with you. According to them 10/7 was in fact a genocide:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-16/ty-article/hamas-deadly-rampage-constitutes-crime-of-genocide-hundreds-of-legal-experts-say/0000018b-37d1-d450-a3af-7fddda070000
As to the Iraq war, your numbers are also false. There were 209,000+ civillian deaths in that war, far outstripping the total civillian death count in Gaza, which no one actually knows (of the 50k dead) since Hamas intentionally includes fighters in their casualty number. But I guess that doesn't matter to you, since in other wars, civillian deaths are a "side effect" but for some reason, civiillian deaths in a war against Hamas are not a "side effect".
As to expanding into Gaza, what other choice does Israel have but to threaten to annex Gaza? Clearly Hamas cares so little for their own people that they refuse to surrender despite the war. How can they overthow the murderous maniacs who have sworn to commit the 10/7 genocide "again and again and again" according to their official spokesperson and hate Jews so much that they enshrined a wish for their death in their founding charter. Why should Israel be forced to live next to such a group?
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
In the context of the court action which was trying to prevent the UK government from exporting arms, it does matter actually. The UK doesn't have laws for arming countries that "are really damn bad," but legally they are required not to arm them if they're found by the UK courts to be engaging in genocide (and I believe other enumerated crimes against humanity).
sundaywellnessclub@reddit
The UK government’s position here is basically: “we’re not sure it’s genocide, and even if it is, it’s not our problem unless it happens on our soil.” That’s a jaw-dropping abdication of responsibility, especially when over 15,000 children are reported dead and nearly the entire population of Gaza has been displaced multiple times.
Saying there’s “no evidence” of targeting civilians, while citing selective intelligence and ignoring widespread, documented destruction of hospitals, homes, and refugee camps, feels like willful blindness at best.
The carve-out for the F-35 program tells you everything: strategic alliances and military contracts matter more than human lives. They’re prioritizing NATO optics over international law and moral accountability.
You can’t claim to champion human rights while selling components for fighter jets used in a warzone teetering on the edge of a genocide investigation. This isn’t just a legal question… it’s a moral one, and the UK is failing it spectacularly.
Monterenbas@reddit
Wich countries do you believe have passed the moral question test? Including regarding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?
Aenjeprekemaluci@reddit
No one..
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
There's not much point in having a test that no one is passing. That means the test is too close to your idea of perfection.
What countries are the closest to passing the test?
qutronix@reddit
Its unironicly Yemen. The situation is that dire. And they are mostly passing it for wrong reason. And maybe Vatican? But that doesnt really count as a country
ArCovino@reddit
The Houthi are literally starving the parts of the country they haven’t been able to capture militarily. Look at Taizz
ShootmansNC@reddit
And they're literaly the only country actively oposing israel's genocide in palestine.
ArCovino@reddit
They’re not opposing shit. It is all PR for daddy Iran.
ShootmansNC@reddit
Their blockade bankrupted Israel's only port in the red sea.
https://www.seatrade-maritime.com/ports-logistics/attacks-on-red-sea-shipping-bankrupt-israeli-port
They have ran the mighty US navy out of the red sea and almost shot down an F-35
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/24/red-sea-houthis-us-navy-prosperity-guardian-iran-gaza/
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/the-houthis-almost-shot-down-an-f-35-and-washington-is-panicked
What has your country done for palestine?
Aenjeprekemaluci@reddit
Wrong reason? Explain it. Vatican cant do anything anyways.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
This is what he's talking about. For me personally, their opposition to genocide makes up for the fact that their slogan isn't exactly woke.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
It’s also important to contextualize, even though people hate that when you talk about these groups because they think you’re saying it’s alright. If the Nazis while genociding had their supply lines disrupted by a violent armed group that had “curse be upon the Germans” and was racist against Germans, they’d still be on the right side of history. If your primary exposure to Judaism is through zionists who co opt that religion as a justification for their actions then I feel like it would be really hard not to see Zionist action as Jewish ones. It’s still wrong of course. But it’s an example of how Zionism makes the world more dangerous for Jews too.
Ropetrick6@reddit
It doesn't help that Israel dliberately conflates itself with the entirety of Judaism.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
Yeah all those people arguing that 'ohhh they're antisemitic, therefore their intervention is fundamentally evil' are motivated by trying to distract and derail from what the conversation SHOULD be: what is an acceptable responses to a state that is committing genocide.
And the Houthis have been clear that a ceasefire in Gaza is what it will take for them to stop their red sea blockade, and they've followed the ceasefires diligently(even though Israel never respected the ceasefire and continued to kill Palestinians).
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
It’s wild that a antisemitic resistance group in one of the poorest countries of the world is more morally righteous, effective and honest than any number of much more powerful countries.
ArCovino@reddit
Only if you ignore the horrible shit they do to other Yemenis.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Nobody is saying they are good people lol. They are in the midst of a civil war where the other side is the US, Saudi and the UAE.
ArCovino@reddit
Plenty of people here are saying they’re one of the few countries doing their duty lol
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
I mean they are, as far as doing what you can to stop genocide goes. And they aren't a country.
Appropriate-Draft-91@reddit
A other way to look at it, is to simply drop the double standards.
If using the word "Jews" instead of "Zionists" makes one irredeemably evil, that rule should apply to everyone. Which would make Israel and 99% of it's supporters, notably the entire Western press, irredeemably evil.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
The Houthis opposed the genocide meaning that they were great when it comes to Gaza, but their motto is literally death to Jews ... a curse upon the Jews, etc and they very heavily oppress their people domestically.
-I don't fully agree with his position I'm just explaining it.
Aenjeprekemaluci@reddit
Yemen. Iran folded a year ago when Pesezkhian came into power and the reformists got control. Since then it withdrew all pressure points on Israel they once had. Assad regime which fell for good, sadly only meant another puppet regime that is like the Gulf complices came into power.
Monterenbas@reddit
Yep
ShootmansNC@reddit
From a moral standpoint Ukraine wouldn't pass either, given they were active participants in an illegal invasion and ocupation of a sovereign country that led to the death and suffering of millions of innocents.
Kinperor@reddit
I think a case can be made for Yemen and Ansar Allah having passed.
I don't endorse nations taking an interventionist approach, purely because of the foreign policy catastrophe that the US have created... But every nation should be considering radical policies to Divest, Boycott, Sanction at a minimum.
JhonIWantADivorce@reddit
Considering how people talk about Jhon brown and Nat turner I can’t help but feel like history will idolize them in a similar way.
I don’t think they’re necessarily 1:1 or anything but I imagine most people will look past any less ethical choices on account of their resistance, especially considering their circumstances and size.
apistograma@reddit
Really, who the hell needs the far right when the "progressives" act like this. Starmer has been supporting the genocide in Gaza and spouting hate against immigrants. It's a disgrace Labor is allowing this, they organized a vicious campaign falsely smearing Corbyn to have a monster like Starmer in charge.
ThatOneShotBruh@reddit
You forgot the random anti-LGBTQ position they adopted recently.
Who needs conservatives when you have social democrats like Labour 😊
ShootmansNC@reddit
Something something scratch a liberal
PixelationIX@reddit
I believe Keir Starmer came out with straight up anti-immigration statement recently too. I think he said something in the lines of "We are becoming nation of strangers" or something like that.
No_Macaroon_9752@reddit
He said: “This strategy will finally take back control of our borders and close the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our economy, and our country.”
And: “Let me put it this way: Nations depend on rules – fair rules. Sometimes they’re written down, often they’re not, but either way, they give shape to our values. They guide us towards our rights, of course, but also our responsibilities, the obligations we owe to one another. Now, in a diverse nation like ours, and I celebrate that, these rules become even more important. Without them, we risk becoming an island of strangers, not a nation that walks forward together.”
Critics note the similarity to fascist Enoch Powell’s Rivers of Blood hate speech from 1968.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
It’s a fucking joke. Labour is center on some things, right to far right on others, and maybe center left on some positions. Austerity, anti immigrant and trans rhetoric, supporting a genocide and denying it is one at all - if you told me these were the tories I wouldn’t bat an eye. Neoliberals are literally destroying this planet and we just have to deal with it.
historicusXIII@reddit
Calling them center is even a stretch nowadays. Starmer is more conservative then David Cameron and more rightwing economically than Boris Johnson. Labour is now more rightwing than the Lib Dems on pretty every issue.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Sad times for the Brits…
photochadsupremacist@reddit
On the 4th of April, 58% of Brits polled supported an arms embargo, vs 18% who opposed it.
If we're just looking at Labour, 73% supported an arms embargo vs 10% who opposed it.
But they're still fucking going out of their way to sell arms to Israel, which is a very unpopular thing to do in the UK especially amongst Starmer's voting base, just to support a genocide.
It's insane.
apistograma@reddit
The Zionists saw the Nazi conspiracy of Jews controlling liberal democracies and took it as a blueprint. I mean, it would be unfair to say its “the Jews” as the entire ethnicity because it’s an elite group formed by both Jewish and Gentiles millionaires but it’s fucking ironic isn’t it.
NoVacancyHI@reddit
You're actually sick
You use Zionists as a 1:1 synonym. Lol
Ropetrick6@reddit
Quick question: does AIPAC exist?
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Rflol
Ancient-Watch-1191@reddit
Thank you!
2dudesinapod@reddit
It’s fascinating how every western country has a few select people who happen to be in power ignoring the will of the people on this obvious genocide.
ViolentBeetle@reddit
Oh, they messed it up. It's supposed to be.
"Human rights are important? No, genocide allowed!"
travistravis@reddit
Just goes to show he should never have been a human rights lawyer either, probably.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Him saying that Israel have the right to cut off all power, water and food to Gaza in October 2023 was a big hint tbh.
But yeah, it's fucking insane how far they're willing to go to support a genocide against the will of their own people.
In London, you'll see Palestinian flags literally everywhere. Protests have been going on with at least hundreds of thousands of people showing up every time, while counter protests had 100-200 people.
IAMADon@reddit
Democracy is when a left wing party comes close to beating the right wing party, so the right wing creates an enormous smear campaign in the left wing party and seizes control by lying about their intentions for the party then booting anyone left-wing, leaving the electorate to vote right-wing, right-wing, or right-wing. 💪
Ancient-Watch-1191@reddit
Thank you!
Tsofuable@reddit
Isn't that their plan? They want the far right vote.
travistravis@reddit
His approval rating is down from the Tories, and Reform as well -- there's literally no group that thinks he's doing better now than a month ago. (The smallest drop in approval was from Tory voters).
-SneakySnake-@reddit
I mean, this is just me, but if you try to do right by people who don't normally vote and treat them as people facing problems and not idiots who need to be placated or lied to, they might just vote for you.
Level_Hour6480@reddit
Ah, the Kamala Harris approach. That worked great.
You can't steal the right's base, but you will depress the turnout on the left by trying.
qutronix@reddit
I mean, kier starmer has 2% favorability among reform voters. If that a campaign to win the far right vote, its patently not working.
Drake_the_troll@reddit
Except the far right will say they're woke and vote reform anyway.
apistograma@reddit
If you think in purely electoral terms, it makes no sense how so many parties are fighting for the far right vote, because tbh it’s not like most British people are far right. There’s an important niche to carve but it’s not the best thing to do as a politician.
You know how some time ago there was several protests in London against the invasion of Gaza that were attended by more than one million people. By that same logic the far right could capitalize that, since there’s a point of connection between the left and the far right: leftists hate Israel because it’s an apartheid genocidal state and far righters dislike them because they’re Jewish. Not that I want the far right starting to pollute the anti Israel movement with antisemitism, but the reason this hasn’t happened, and is because the narrative is controlled by Zionism.
Level_Hour6480@reddit
The UK is a dying country.
Thevoidawaits_u@reddit
yeah, there is no evidence of targeting civilians. to show that you'll need to prove a negative. that civilians died and that they had intent to kill civilians.
it's not enough to show that the military was negligent or disproportionate, I'm sure there are cases of that, but "targeting" is a high bar for intent
Daryno90@reddit
Except we all know Israel is intentionally murdering civilians. You aren’t fooling anyone. We all see your government and military true colors now.
860v2@reddit
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
Yes, we know that you're argument. Not sure why you quoted it.
860v2@reddit
I see the pro-Palestine crowd has brought out their intellectual heavyweights.
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
The reply matched the original in intellectual depth.
860v2@reddit
Not true, I summarized their comment. You just posted “no u”.
Daryno90@reddit
They literally murdered 15 aid workers and try to hide it
Doctors who been there reported that the IdF was murdering Palestinians (children included daily), one even spoke in front of the UK parliament about how the IDF was using drones to kill civilians
IDF whistleblowers who been there reported that the IDF thugs were indiscriminately murdering civilians and calling them terrorists
They literally starving millions of people right now.
You aren’t going to pull the wool over anyone eyes. Those IDF bastards might as well be speaking German now. They will be view as the new Nazis in time
860v2@reddit
Everything you just described happens in every war. That’s not “intentionally murdering civilians”.
If you want to see what that actually looks like, go watch footage from October 7th.
Daryno90@reddit
No, it’s genocide, and your country is committing a genocide.
Love the mental gymnastics though. “When we commit acts of genocide, it’s actually war. When Hamas does it, it’s genocide.”
Really just show how full of crap you are.
860v2@reddit
No offense, but you can’t even define genocide in your own words. You are in no position to decide what is or isn’t genocide.
Also, I quoted you directly: “intentionally murdering civilians”. You’re the one that jumped to genocide.
Daryno90@reddit
Well I mean offense by this, you are full of shit and you know it.
Also I’m calling it a genocide because every major human rights groups, every doctor who been there, historians and professors who studied past genocide and even Holocaust survivors are calling it a genocide.
Meanwhile according to you, October 7th was genocide but not the intentional starving of millions of people or the mass slaughter of them, or the intentionally murdering of Palestinians according to American and British doctors who been there.
Sorry pal but you aren’t gaslighting anyone into believing your BS. We all see right through it
860v2@reddit
I think you have me confused for your diary. Absolutely nobody asked for you to type all of that.
You’re objectively wrong. Accept it and move on.
Daryno90@reddit
None of what I said is false. You just don’t like the fact that people are calling you out for the genocide your country is committing. History will not look kind on your country
860v2@reddit
False, everything was wrong. You are just blabbing.
Absolutely no one cares that you hate Israel, Israelis, Jews, etc. Your opinions on them has zero impact on their lives, safety, etc.
Daryno90@reddit
I don’t hate Jews and I don’t even have anything against the average Israeli. What I am against is your genocidal government and its military force.
You can put your head in the sand all you want, but what the Israeli government is doing is clearly genocide.
And you know this and all you can do is accuse people of being antisemitic because they are against genocide because you have nothing else to fall back on
photochadsupremacist@reddit
International doctors who were in Gaza reported many cases of children being shot in the head and in the chest.
Israel killed paramedics recently, as you'd know.
There were the WCK strikes.
There's the Hind Rajab killing where the massacred the whole family, and bombed the ambulance that went to save her (the ambulance was coordinating with the IDF btw).
The flour massacre where they massacred starving civilians who were getting aid.
But yeah, no proof.
jpatt@reddit
Money trumps morals nowadays.
sizz@reddit
Hamas stated they will be using innocent civilians as human shields to avoid air strikes or martyr propaganda. Civilians are not allowed to enter Hamas's tunnels and there are no bomb shelters. However Israel doesn't care, and wants to destroy Hamas.
Why would Israel use the F-35 for air strikes, when they can use much cheaper artillery and can be operated by conscripts if Israel wants to commit genocide. Accuracy doesn't matter, as long it's causing maximum casualties, right?. Like Russia shelling Ukraine or Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Anser Allah launching surface to surface missiles at Israel and funded by either stealing aid or narcos trade. Artillery is cheap and source from China, because Chinese companies are helping Israeli settlers build west bank settlements.
No_Motor_6941@reddit
There's no evidence a Hamas human shield policy is the cause of Israel's mass murder in a concentration camp produced by the lack of a state.
sizz@reddit
Poland with a population 35 million can take a Gaza worth of Ukrainian refugees. However 1.9 billion Muslims cannot take a Gaza worth of Palestinian refugees.
Why is that?
IdiAmini@reddit
Because Israel does not uphold "the right to return" meaning any country taking in Palestinian refugees and making it so there are no more Palestinians in Gaza, will be complicit to genocide by way of ethnic cleansing
Was that so difficult to understand?
SowingSalt@reddit
The India and Pakistan partition doesn't have a right or return.
Some 900,000 Jewish refugees were expelled from the MENA region. I don't think their descendants want to return. So the obvious solution is the Jews and Palestinians trade the rights.
IdiAmini@reddit
So, because Israeli refugees don't want to make use of a certain right they have, Palestinians who do want to use that right must forfeit their right?? Because....?
Guess you're one of those that think Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli lives
SowingSalt@reddit
There's no requirement to chose your country of residence, so i chose my favorite. Mods said choose a flair or don't participate.
While we're on the subject: nice username. Going to break into a hospital, murder a convalesing elderly hostage? Try to invade Kenya and Tanzania again?
You're the ones who say that refugee status is inherited for the Palestinians, unlike every other refugee in the world. Every other refugee has to go through the UNHCR, while the Palestinians have UNRWA.
KingOfSufferin@reddit
UNHCR refugees can also pass down refugee status to their descendants if a "durable solution" has not been found. And unlike with UNRWA where it only passes down paternally, UNHCR status can pass down both maternally and paternally.
UNRWA predates UNHCR, and when created by UNGA included both Palestinian and Jewish refugees of the 1948 war within Israel until 1951 when Israel took responsibility for that. UNRWA only operates in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, so Palestinians outside of those places would fall under UNHCR and not UNRWA.
No_Motor_6941@reddit
Zionist cope
sizz@reddit
في أمريكا الشمالية مع تأشيرة لاجئ، ووظيفة محترمة، وأسلوب حياة جيد، ودعم، يريدكم اليساريون الأمريكيون أن تموتوا من أجل حماس، دم مقابل الدم.
الأمريكيون من اليمين واليسار لا يعرفون كيف يعمل نظام اللجوء. الليبراليون في أمريكا لديهم بعض الفهم. يا فلسطينيين، يمكنكم النجاح في العالم الأنجلوساكسوني وترك كراهية العالم القديم خلفكم.
يا فلسطينيين، إذا أردتم فعلاً اللعب مع اليهود، اعتنقوا المسيحية الأمريكية، وستصبحون أنتم من يملكون ماكدونالدز، والقبة الحديدية، وطائرات F-35. لأن المسيحيين الإنجيليين من السهل جدًا التلاعب بهم ولديهم الكثير من النفوذ. إذا حصلتم على واعظ أمريكي صاخب ليُعمّد المسلمين جماعيًا للمسيحية، فعندها ستنتهي إسرائيل – بلا مزاح.
الأمة والشيوعيون قرروا أن يتركوكم، أنتم الفلسطينيين، لتموتوا على يد إسرائيل، حماس، حزب الله، ومنظمة التحرير الفلسطينية الفاسدة.
No_Motor_6941@reddit
Copium: The art form
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I don’t know why you think that Arab or Muslim states are obliged to help Israel ethnically cleanse Palestinians, but they’re not..
sizz@reddit
Accepting refugees is ethnic cleansing? What.
Women and children flee and the men stay and fight until Palestinians achieve Hamas's objectives, that is river to the sea Palestine will be free and the Jews kicked out — like every other middle eastern country kicking out their Jewish population.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
What you are proposing is that Israel ethnically cleanse Palestinians women and children and then mass murder all the men. It’s a really stupid and evil idea.
The Palestinians aren’t a militaristic or supremacist society like Israel. They don’t grow up dreaming of expanding across the middle east or driving all the lesser races or religions away. They’ve been ethnically cleansed multiple times. Leaving Gaza now will be a one way ticket, which is what Israelis and Zionists want.
sizz@reddit
You said you don't want women and children leaving a warzone into safety. You said Palestinians "militaristic or supremacist society". No agency, cannot succeed, yadda yadda, you're an orientialist.
So then, saying that, you agree Palestinians should not fight Hamas explicit military goals? You agree then Hamas should surrender to Israel, disarm and disband and return the hostages.
wearesoback786@reddit
Are you being dumb on purpose you australian colonizer.
JMoc1@reddit
Because you’re talking about a temporary event in Poland versus the permanent expulsion of a group of people from their homeland.
The former of which is a war crime perpetrated Israel in an attempt to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
sizz@reddit
So weapons that arm Hamas can get through into Gaza during peace time but civilians can't come back? Lol. When Palestinians leave, they are not coming back, why would they come back with Hamas in charge. The three Hamas leaders living in luxury in the billions of stolen aid in Qatar during the Oct 7 massacre, when that money should have gone to Palestinians like building bomb shelters.
JMoc1@reddit
We’re not talking about weapon shipments. We’re talking about the temporary refugee status of Ukrainians from a war zone versus the proposed permanent refugee status that removing Palestinians from their land would be.
Please attempt to stay on topic.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
None of this excuses Israel’s actions, as we are increasingly seeing from around the globe.
sigmaluckynine@reddit
I said this before when the UK, the US, and all of us in the Western bloc kept on going about "genocide" in Xinjiang, we're moving the Overton window and when Israel does something stupid again we're going to ve paying for it.
It's not even a moral one at this point, it's just plainly speaking, hypocrisy. How exactly are we going to convince other nations now about human rights issues if we can't even collectively follow our own words
Ancient-Watch-1191@reddit
Thank you!
travistravis@reddit
Even if there's not "official" genocide, surely there's some rules about selling more arms to a government that is actively committing multiple war crimes.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
What responsibility are they abdicating from?
sundaywellnessclub@reddit
They’re abdicating from the responsibility to prevent their weapons (or weapons components they supply) from being used to commit serious violations of international humanitarian law, including potential war crimes and even genocide. International law, especially the Genocide Convention and Arms Trade Treaty, obliges states not to assist or facilitate such crimes. By continuing to export F-35 parts despite credible evidence of widespread civilian harm in Gaza, the UK government is effectively saying, “It’s not our problem unless the atrocity is proven beyond doubt or happens on our soil.” That’s a dangerous loophole that lets them avoid taking preventive action to stop further suffering and that’s exactly the responsibility they’re shirking.
Monterenbas@reddit
But didn’t the whole world recently showed that they don’t care about international laws, nor consider them importants when not outright labeling them as a tool of western imperialism.
Why do you expect the UK to still cling onto those, when all others countries have ditched them long ago?
sundaywellnessclub@reddit
The UK’s whole brand, especially post-Brexit, is about being a champion of “rules-based order.” They invoke international law constantly: when it comes to condemning Russia, defending Ukraine, criticizing human rights abuses in China or Iran, and justifying foreign policy decisions. So when they turn around and say, “Well, actually, our legal obligations don’t apply here,” it reeks of double standards. It’s not just morally inconsistent, it undermines the very framework they claim to stand on.
If the UK wants to be taken seriously when it calls out others for breaking international law, it has to apply those standards consistently, even when it’s inconvenient. If they abandon that too, it’s not just hypocrisy, it’s one more brick out of a collapsing system we all still desperately need—flawed as it is.
Monterenbas@reddit
Well, there’s no point upholding international law, if nobody else is interested.
I agree, the UK should drop its pretention, just like everybody else and embrace the new reality.
sundaywellnessclub@reddit
Yeah, in many ways, the system has already collapsed. We’ve watched global powers flout international law with barely a slap on the wrist, and the institutions meant to uphold it often seem toothless or politically compromised. It’s demoralizing, and for people on the ground living through war or displacement, legal principles mean nothing if they’re not backed by action.
If everyone fully embraces that collapse, what’s left? A world where might makes right? Where atrocities go unchecked because no one even bothers pretending anymore? As fragile and hypocritical as the system is, the alternative is worse. International law may be broken, but completely abandoning it means giving up the only shared language we have to call out injustice, even if it’s inconsistently applied.
Still, your point stands: if the powerful won’t follow the rules, maybe the least hypocritical thing the UK could do is drop the sanctimony and admit it’s playing the same game as everyone else. At least then we’re not pretending it’s about values anymore.
Monterenbas@reddit
Yes, that’s what most people want apparently.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
That’s what the far right wants. That’s not what most people want.
Monterenbas@reddit
Then most people worldwide are far right, I guess.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
No. That is delusional.
Monterenbas@reddit
Everyone seems perfectly fine with might makes right, I don’t see many countries acting against Russia or Israel, do you?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Russia is powerful in its own right. Israel has lavish support from the west, keeping it effectively untouchable.
However, BDS terrifies Israeli leaders and the general population. That’s the way forward - nonviolent opposition to Israel in the west.
Monterenbas@reddit
So that’s exactly what is said, the strong do as they please and the weak suffer what they must.
sundaywellnessclub@reddit
Sad.
Monterenbas@reddit
It is.
sarges_12gauge@reddit
So for comments like this, genuine curiosity: are you feeding an LLM the comment history and post thread or just using it to word your response in different words?
Doktor_Vem@reddit
I was about to comment "What's the UK supposed to do? The horrible things are happening in another country that they don't have any sort of control over" but if they're actually exporting weapons and firearms to the assholes then I guess they're not exactly helping
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Solid. Thanks. ✨
860v2@reddit
You don’t take out 80% of Hamas leadership by randomly bombing Gaza.
There is no evidence of civilians being targeted.
punchfalaknuma@reddit
It’s an abdication of responsibility not just of moral questions now but one of colonialism too. Removing oneself from historical contexts is appalling.
Paradoxjjw@reddit
Or, you know, multiple Israeli government officials repeatedly saying genocide is the point.
Aenjeprekemaluci@reddit
Those things are why i believe that even pro Palestinian people that otherwise supporting those organizations like NATO, EU, or powers like US, Russia etc are complicit and useless in fighting the genocide. They want to preserve structures that are enabling this genocide. I might be too radical for some. But i believe that only a collapse of those powers and Arab regimes can stop it. Its not happening though. No one is stepping up to stop it. Iran, Turkey, Arabs, China, Russia, NATO etc all are watching doing nothing...
Mythosaurus@reddit
The European empire that colonized Palestine, started the mass migration of Jews to the region, and erected the original apartheid systems for the region…
Thinks anyone will believe this?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"European Empire." You really are one of my countrymen, since your knowledge of world history is so pathetic.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You... DO realize that The British Empire existed, right? You have read a history book, right?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Wait, so "Europe" is actually the British?
Ropetrick6@reddit
The British are in Europe...
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
So they are the rulers of Europe?
Ropetrick6@reddit
You're the one saying that, not anybody else.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Okay Mr. "European Empire."
Ropetrick6@reddit
Are you reading impaired? Genuine question, because the only alternative I can think of is you're both unaware that Brits are Europeans, and that the British Empire existed.
Or that you're engaging in bad faith, that's also an option.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Are you just a fucking idiot? Who was the ruler of your fictitious "European Empire?"
Mrshinyturtle2@reddit
Which are you suggesting, that the uk wasn't an empire, or that they're not European?
bureX@reddit
As someone from the Balkans, we have this conversation all the time and it's getting tiring.
The fact of the matter is, waiting for the word "genocide" to be officially applied to anything is absolutely unnecessary, if you want to label something as wrong. The treatment of the people in Gaza is absolutely nuts as is, and using Hamas as an excuse for anything and everything needs to stop.
It's a small strip of land where Israel has been trying to "destroy Hamas" for years, it's clear that it's not working.
EH1987@reddit
Sure is hard to see anything when you refuse to even look.
apistograma@reddit
They literally had an NHS surgeon who did humanitarian aid in Gaza speaking in the house about how Israel was targeting children with drones. The poor man was visibly traumatized when recalling how he treated kids who were shot in the legs by a drone, or finding dead children with two fatal wounds. How much of a monster you must be to shoot a kid not once, but also again after already blowing a deadly shot. They have lost any single trace of humanity they had.
protomenace@reddit
This kind of comment baffles me. How would a surgeon have any idea about whether children are being "targeted" with drones.
Also "shot in the legs by a drone" doesn't even make sense. Drones don't carry guns. They carry explosives.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Dude children’s legs don’t just get blown off. What the fuck kind of idiot peasant brained bullshit comment is this. There literally are sniper drones used by Israel, and there are drones with guns too. Double taps, targeting innocents, crippling them, etc are all part of Israel’s MO. What difference does it make if a child was targeted via drone or airstrike?
protomenace@reddit
How would a surgeon have any idea if someone was shot by a drone or by a person?
The testimony doesn't make any sense, and is therefore not credible.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
If you genuinely cared about this you’d find some references to the actual testimony instead of chirping about some minor detail. It looks like OP mixed up some facts from the testimony, which again, doesn’t change anything. Why pick on this detail unless you’re trying to deflect from the subjecr of the conversation?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-middle-east-minister-dismissed-gaza-genocide-concerns-obnoxious
protomenace@reddit
In other words there is nothing special about this testimony coming from a doctor, and it's hearsay.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Yeah sure, doctors on the ground in Gaza know less than genocide denying neoliberal lawyers. Who cares about human beings when you can watch the number go up huh? You’re pathetic.
protomenace@reddit
You didn't even address my argument. You just got emotional and insulted me.
Typical.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You're the one making up the lie that doctors on the grround know less tyhan you, oh great and enlightened one.
protomenace@reddit
All I said was they admitted they're just parroting what they heard from someone else, oh great and enlightened one.
Ropetrick6@reddit
So they're quoting first-hand witness accounts, compared to your... what exactly? Pro-Apartheid propagandists?
protomenace@reddit
You're clearly not interested in anything but grandstanding so I'll bow out of the discussion here. Have a good one.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Uh huh. Gonna be honest, I'll take first-hand accounts over what arms-dealing lawyers have to say.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Doctors saying people were shot by drones is actually 2nd or 3rd hand information. Do you really not get this?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Doctors DIRECTLY QUOTING first-hand accounts is, in fact, being provided with the first-hand accounts. That's what "directly quoting" means...
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Doctor asks how a kid got shot in an area where the idf arent operating. He is told the kid got shot by a drone. That is not firsthand information, that is second hand information.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Uh huh, sure. That's still more than your 3rd-hand at best Apartheid supporters...
tlvsfopvg@reddit
No. There is no evidence of Israeli sniper drones. Stop trying to change the subject.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Uh huh, and as we all know, Israel would never lie, right?
tlvsfopvg@reddit
You think the more likely story is that Israel is using sniper drones in Gaza, and it just happens to be the case that no video or photo evidence of this has ever emerged? You think that is more likely than Hamas lying?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Between the choice of believing the innocent civilian who are being murdered by Israel, or believing the state that is STILL actively lying about Hind Rajab's death, I'm going to believe the innocent civilians.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
That wasn’t the question.
We both agree that doctors are saying people are shot by drones. We also both agree that there is no evidence (photo, video, or physical) that prove these drones exist.
Do you think it is more likely that Gazans are forgetting to take pictures or videos of these drones that are apparently shooting people, or that Hamas is lying about drones shooting people?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Israel's admitted that it uses AI that deliberately targets civilians. Now, I don't know about you, but it'd be pretty difficult for me to release footage if I was, you know, MURDERED.
It's also not like Israel has made a point of targeting journalists and reporters, oh wait a minute...
Well, Israel would never lie to the public about its murder of civilians, right? Hind Rajab would like a word, except Israel murdered her.
Hmmmmm. Gotta say, Israel's track record is NOT doing it any favors in this conversation.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Answer my question dude.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Please explain to me how you're going to take a photo when you get a 5.56 lobotomy for even EXISTING in the line of sight of the IDF or its equipment. Please, describe in excruciating detail how you're goin to take a picture when you're riddled with 335 bullets from a singular Israeli firearm, with several others likely joining in the "fun" of murdering you and your family.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Nah answer my question first.
Ropetrick6@reddit
No no, I insist, please explain in excruciating detail how you're going to take a picture when you've been shot with 335 rounds. I am genuinely curious as to how you expect a 5 year old to do that.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Nah you first.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Uh huh, you're going to block somebody for having the gall to ask you how a dead civilian is meant to release photos?
For some reason, I don't think you're engaging in good faith here.
protomenace@reddit
The Israeli military is a first hand witness to the conflict as well. Something tells me you would discard their testimony.
partnerinthecrime@reddit
These doctors accuse Israel of using a weapon that doesn’t even exist, and doesn’t even make sense, to explain why children have gunshot wounds in areas where the IDF isn’t operating. There is a much simpler explanation…
Their credibility has been shot to shit.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Source?
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
It's a common hasbara tactic to make you think you cannot trust any info coming from Gazans regarding this occupation. They do it with the death tolls too. You can just google 'israel sniper drone' and there's many articles testifying to its existence. Idk what the OP is talking about. And the IDF has been all over every part of Gaza at some point since 10/7 (and before of course).
tlvsfopvg@reddit
So post one you fucking liar.
Zipz@reddit
Jesus Christ you are still arguing this
They aren’t CSI they aren’t investigators they aren’t trained in anyway to make the judgement they are making
So it’s wild you take a persons word for something he has no idea about
Publius82@reddit
If I had a soul, it'd be crushed
protomenace@reddit
https://www.snopes.com/news/2024/04/30/idf-sniper-drones-crying/
og_toe@reddit
he probably means their legs were blown off.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Despite rumors of “gun drones” being used by Israel for years, there has never been any evidence of a “gun drone” being used in Gaza. There has never been any photos or videos of active or destroyed “gun drones” in Gaza. Despite dozens of reports of people getting shot by these “gun drones” not a single shred of evidence has surfaced of them being used in Gaza.
Hamas spokespeople use “Israeli gun drones”as the exploration for how Gazans are getting shot in zones where the IDF is not operating.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Doctors from all over the world who went to Gaza all said the same thing. There's an alarming number of children with gunshot wounds.
Noneerror@reddit
If there's no evidence of women or children being targeted then the lawyers should be perfectly ok sending their own wives and children into Gaza.
Noneerror@reddit
If there's no evidence of women or children being targeted then the lawyers should be perfectly ok sending their own wives and children into Gaza.
no_soy_livb@reddit
I wonder if these westerners are the same people who said there was a genocide in Xinjiang 5 years ago and attacked China, and now they claim there is no genocide in Gaza because of technicisms and lack of "intent". So true bestie.
860v2@reddit
Define genocide in your own words.
triggered_rabbit@reddit
Under the UN Genocide Convention, genocide involves acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, including kiling members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, imposing measures to prevent births, and forcibly transferring children. Credible evidence of any one of these crimes to any Palestinian based on their nationality constitutes genocidal actions, independent of the number of Palestinians. Forcing children to flee northern gaza to rafah, then to flee rafah, in of itself qualifies.
Thousands of civilians, including women and children, have been killed in airstrikes. The scale, pattern, and non defensive nature of these attacks are more than collateral damage. Casualties of war crimes are not considered collateral.
Israel’s total blockade of Gaza, including water, food, fuel, and medical supplies, especially after October 2023, was described by UN officials as a form of collective punishment.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250416-israel-says-no-humanitarian-aid-will-enter-gaza
“I had the honor and privilege of meeting with senior Republican Party officials at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate,” Ben-Gvir wrote on X. “They expressed support for my very clear position on how to act in Gaza and that the food and aid depots should be bombed in order to create military and political pressure to bring our hostages home safely.” https://newrepublic.com/post/194311/israel-far-right-minister-ben-gvir-republican-meeting-mar-a-lago
Israeli Minister Smotrich vowed to block all aid into Gaza https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/smotrich-says-not-even-grain-wheat-will-enter-gaza
Systematic bombing of hospitals, schools, refugee camps, and homes. The UN and human rights groups have warned that this severely disrupts conditions necessary for life, such as access to water, healthcare, and shelter qualifying as "conditions of life calculated to destroy.
Since the collapse of the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in early March, Gaza has not received any deliveries of food, water, fuel or medical supplies as Israel has blocked all humanitarian aid that's left Gazans in dire straits.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/utter-desperation-in-gaza-after-collapse-of-ceasefire-and-israels-aid-blockade
Gaza's IVF embryos destroyed by Israeli strike https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/5000-lives-one-shell-gazas-ivf-embryos-destroyed-by-israeli-strike-2024-04-17/
Israel has ordered over a million Gazans to evacuate to the south with no guarantee of safety or return. Legal scholars see this as a tactic to depopulate the area, amounting to forcible transfer.
An easier way to think about this:
1) When you commit purposeful war crimes, "casualties" of war are no longer accidental. The war crimes are intentional, and hence genocidal. Attacks on institutions (schools, mosques, hospitals, water sanitation, etc) erode infrastructure, disrupt essential services, hinder future development, and destabilize political processes which are all hallmarks of genocide.
2) This didn't start in 2023. You've divided and blockaded a country of people over decades, maimed and killed its women and children, taken away its right to an army, navy, or air force, leaving it defenseless. You control the flow of ALL goods, essential and otherwise, into the country and govern the production of goods WITHIN that country. All without political authority or legal precedent, and solely through military dominance. Then you complained when they didnt roll over and lay out the red carpet for your invasion? When does a nation have a right to self defense? Hint, at any point in this timeline.
3) at best, arguments against labeling this a genocide are semantic ones. The term allows for war criminals to be procecuted in international courts of law where due process is followed. The term allows for human rights agencies to observe events firsthhand, relief organizations to provide aid, and fewer innocent victims to be wiped out.
For the genocide deniers, what are the pros of removing the label?? It can only lead to more harm and destruction. Why are you invested in removing the little protection these peiple have left?
When 0.0001% of Palestine is left, then can we call it genocide? Or do we have to wait until no one is left?
860v2@reddit
This is not your own words. Try again.
triggered_rabbit@reddit
Im pretty sure your own government leaders have made that very clear.
monocasa@reddit
Also, it's a pretty obvious ban evasion account, which would normally make it worth autobanning by the admins.
860v2@reddit
If this were true then your reports would have resulted in a ban already.
monocasa@reddit
Reddit doesn't accept ban evasion reports except from mods.
860v2@reddit
That’s for site-wide bans. I’m talking about this sub.
Report away.
monocasa@reddit
I don't know if your original account was banned on this sub.
860v2@reddit
From “it’s pretty obvious” to “I don’t know” in the span of two comments.
Nice try, buddy.
monocasa@reddit
Is this the level of reading comprehension you bring to all of your interactions?
860v2@reddit
That’s not an argument.
You claimed that I’m ban evading, now you’re resorting to insulting reading comprehension. Not a good look.
monocasa@reddit
Because I didn't say it was a ban evasion from this sub.
860v2@reddit
Nice backtrack. Don’t stop.
monocasa@reddit
There's no backtracking here. I stand by everything I've said.
860v2@reddit
Why even cry about it? Just report me.
860v2@reddit
If it was clear you would have proven it. The fact that you didn’t know that specific intent is required to prove genocide shows that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
It’s only weird to you because I’m disproving all your copy/pasted talking points.
og_toe@reddit
you’d think jewish people if anyone would be staunchly against violence based on ethnicity / nationality / religion / political beliefs.
860v2@reddit
I’m not Jewish or even Israeli. Not sure why you’re bringing race/religion into this.
Also, what you just described is not genocide.
og_toe@reddit
well most israelis are jewish and you have the israel flair lol. and i didn’t describe genocide, i described violence based on personal parameters.
860v2@reddit
Ok, so you assumed I was Jewish then described something that absolutely nobody asked about. Nice.
og_toe@reddit
yes, if someone has an ”israel” flare on a news/political subreddit i will assume they are israeli, and absolute majority of israelis are jewish.
and since the conversation is about violence, my comment about violence is clearly within the discussion
860v2@reddit
Nah, you just wanted to call me a Jew. Not a good look.
Your response was to my question asking someone to define genocide in their own words. It had nothing to do with the question.
og_toe@reddit
call you a jew lmao what 😭 i said jewish people should understand from history that targeted violence is not okay, please point out where i used ”jew”as a derogatory statement lmfaooo, have you never had a conversation with someone who makes a sidenote in your entire life
og_toe@reddit
it definitely is. one person is detained by police in china and happens to be uyghur: 100% genocide. we have never seen such cruelty ever in the whole history of humanity
but then thousands of arabs die daily it’s just… an unfortunate circumstance hihi <3
kirosayshowdy@reddit
something something rules based world order
loggy_sci@reddit
Follows international law, gets blamed anyway.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Last time I checked, an illegal occupation in direct violation of international law is, in fact, NOT following international law.
loggy_sci@reddit
Is the UK violating international law? Or obligated to comply with some kind of ban? The UK isn’t obligated to stop other nations.
Your feelings aren’t evidence.
Ropetrick6@reddit
They are directly supporting a state that is violating international law, giving them the means to violate international law, with the express intention of helping that state violate international law.
Last time I checked, conspiracy to commit a crime IS, in fact, a crime.
loggy_sci@reddit
DAE when international law is whatever I think it should be?
-you
Ropetrick6@reddit
Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder is perfectly fine and acceptable!
-You
BrownThunderMK@reddit
It was so funny to me how the ICC like.... REALLY didn't want to go after Netanyahu and Gallant, but what Israel was doing was so cartoonishly evil that they had to issue arrest warrants or else they'd lose all legitimacy.
King_Kvnt@reddit
"There is no genocide happening there. And even if there was a genocide happening there, it's not our business."
Yup. Sounds very much like that good old "rules for thee and not for me" based order, doesn't it?
IdiAmini@reddit
This is posted with an agenda in mind. The user porting this is not doing so out of genuine interest, hexis posting this to try and absolve Israeli actions, which are actually not absolvable
And to the article itself: everyone with even a slight amount of intelligence would see that this doesn't mean shit. Ofcourse lawyers would say this because if they didn't, they would be admitting that the UK government is complicit in a genocide and should be dragged in front of a court. Not a single lawyer would ever do that, no matter how much they actually think it is a genocide
So yeah, stupid article to try and disingenuous of the poster to post it here
860v2@reddit
This is cope. There is no evidence that civilians are being targeted or that a genocide is occurring.
IdiAmini@reddit
Sure.....and I'm the Pope in that fantasy of yours, right?
https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-why-we-call-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza-genocide
860v2@reddit
I’m not reading a random 10,000 word statement in a random website. Quote the relevant parts.
IdiAmini@reddit
Calling the Lemkin institute "a random website" says it all, now doesn't it....you lack knowledge
860v2@reddit
Notice how you did not quote the relevant parts or present your own argument.
I’ll give you one more chance.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
More fool them then. It’s pretty obvious to everyone except the die-hard Israel supporters that the UK government’s position is absurd.
Disaster1992@reddit
United Nations officials and experts: it’s a genocide Humans right watch: it’s a genocide Amnesty international: it’s a genocide
And they expect us to believe government lawyers and propaganda apologists.
860v2@reddit
None of this groups decide what is or isn’t genocide. That’s done by international courts.
orange_bananana@reddit
Yeah and the international courts have arrest warrants out for your leaders
860v2@reddit
Arrest warrants for what?
orange_bananana@reddit
Crimes against humanity. Also, the west is turning against israel lol
860v2@reddit
So not genocide?
orange_bananana@reddit
Guess what’s a crime against humanity 🧏♂️
860v2@reddit
Not genocide.
Zipz@reddit
HRW really ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
It’s funny you being up amnesty because you clearly never read what they published. Amenisty changed the definition of genocide and broadened it to make it fit in Gaza.
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
Are there any human rights organizations which defend Israel's current actions or are they all antisemitic?
Zipz@reddit
I love when people can’t debate what I said so they instantly change the subject
Are we just going to ignore the issues with HRW?
Or are we going to ignore that Amnesty changed their definition and broadened it to make the genocide claim.?
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
I love when people try to limit the acceptable bounds of discourse to a little corner where they think they can stand.
Yeah, probably. They aren't currently killing children in large numbers, so I'm not too concerned about it. Israel's commission of genocide is not contingent on HRW being a perfect org.
Are there any human rights orgs defending Israel's actions or not?
Zipz@reddit
Lol perfect
Thanks for confirming you don’t actually care about the issues I’ve brought up and will continue to ignore them
No point in continuing this convo
Have a good day
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
Correct, I do not actually care about the criticisms Israel and its defenders have about the orgs that call out their human rights abuses.
It's a poor attempt at distracting from the topic at hand, namely the genocide Israel is committing, and I'm going to push back. Whether you want to continue the conversation is immaterial to me.
Zipz@reddit
You were the one who brought up the groups.
I’m not distracting anything I’m literally addressing your argument
Funny how that works
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
Nope, check the usernames.
Zipz@reddit
Touché
photochadsupremacist@reddit
But if you ignore all genocide scholars, human rights organisations, international law experts, all reports from the ground about children being targeted, the overwhelming number of strikes in "safe zones", the insane number of children who have been killed or have had to have amputations (without anasthesia which is horrifying to say the least), is there any proof of genocide and that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians?
Oppopity@reddit
Yeah but have you considered the ones supplying weapons said it wasn't a genocide? That should be case closed right.
AccelRock@reddit
So we've devolved to a point where killing civilians is ok so long as it's not 'genocide' (or what we selectively decide is called genocide)... that's totally cool and normal. So it's completely fine to do whatever you want up until this arbitrary line is crossed?
lanzkron@reddit
No, we're saying that we shouldn't be calling something that isn't genocide "genocide".
Doing so desensitises the general public for real genocides.
You can be against something that isn't a genocide, no need to misrepresent something just because you want it to end.
AccelRock@reddit
The point is how high should the bar be set? If it's only 50%, 20%, 10% as bad you can't use that word? Alright. For arguments sake let's say that. Then what can we call something that isn't quite as bad as a genocide?
It seems ignorant to ignore what's going on if actions are even slightly approaching that level. Is 5% progress towards "genocide" (but not genocide) should still be extremely concerning because of what it may become if things got worse.
Anything even going in that direction in the slightest should be scrutinised and actions should be taken to stop letting it get worse.
If genocide is horrible then anything even remotely heading in that direction or that could lead to genocide should be condemned.
Putting that hypothetical aside... What else would even be a fair description of the actions happening to the 50,000 dead and millions displaced and dying and without proper access to food water and shelter? How much worse would it need to be before using the word genocide? At least it's not 100,000 or 500,000? Is that the defense for it being ok?
Zipz@reddit
You seem confused
A death toll doesn’t make something a genocide
A death actually has nothing to do with a genocide
So what you did was make up your own definition for the word and then tried to connect the two
Ropetrick6@reddit
The people arguing that it's not a genocide are also the ones arguing that they should continue giving weapons to Israel so they can glass Gaza...
og_toe@reddit
apparently if you say ”we have the right to defend ourselves” it means you are allowed to do anything to any other country in the world
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
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Prosthemadera@reddit
What's with that passive language, "are not assessed to be representative"?
Why are they not representative? People in government are openly talking about how no one in Gaza is innocent and that children need to be killed, too.
Well, last year Israel wasn't talking about forcefully removing everyone so that's outdated.
No_Macaroon_9752@reddit
Plus that’s not what the ICJ found, either. It’s almost the exact opposite. A provisional ruling is unable to make a declaration on whether genocide is occurring; it said there was enough evidence to be concerned, and reiterated that Israel is violating international law.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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poop-dollah@reddit
lol
Prosthemadera@reddit
Maybe not a genocide (yet) but the government of Israel has openly talked about moving everyone somewhere else, and Trump has recently suggested moving people to Libya - and forcefully moving a whole ethnic group of almost 2 million people is ethnic cleansing, there's no way around it.
The_Narwhal_Mage@reddit
Its also is definitely just a genocide already, but all the courts and governments are afraid of saying it because of the PR issues, which is frankly abhorrent.
N3m0_Ho3s@reddit
The UK and the USA have been saying this the whole time. The narrative that there is a genocide there is pure propaganda. People on reddit are dumb don't understand what urban warfare against an insurgency is. They think of every conflict as a genocide.
New_Carpenter5738@reddit
The UK investigated itself and found no wrongdoing in its part, lmao. Surely there's no reason not to believe them! Nevermind the fact that multiple israeli officials have said wiping Gaza clean is the point. We gotta keep making cash selling them the weapons to do it, so it HAS to not be a genocide!
You would have to be extraordinarilly naive to not see why the USA and the UK would be motivated to say Israel has done nothing wrong. They've been trade and military partners since Israel's birth, of course they'd say Israel did nothing wrong. They are the furthest thing from impartial judges.
New_Carpenter5738@reddit
The UK investigated itself and found no wrongdoing in its part, lmao. Surely there's no reason not to believe them! Nevermind the fact that multiple israeli officials have said wiping Gaza clean is the point. We gotta keep making cash selling them the weapons to do it, so it HAS to not be a genocide!
Staplersarefun@reddit
I truly believe the only way to break the Zionist hold over the West is to support China and the East in their rise. The West needs to realize their devotion to Zionism is holding them back and will be their downfall in the future.
og_toe@reddit
thousands of children are killed in gaza, there is countless footage of destroyed cities and israeli politicians are using nazi language: ”no proof of genocide :)”
a satellite picture of a big building with a fence in china: ”this is DEFINITELY proof of genocide guys”
Kiboune@reddit
Ahahaha bunch of two faced hypocrites. Israel will get away with anything, they can do anything and no other country reacts to this, because it's not beneficial to them to label Israel as terrorist country and put sanctions on Israel
RageAgainstAuthority@reddit
Literally every single country in the world: engages in nonstop fascism, just for a couple extra dollars in profit
Also every country in the world: "well damn, I just can't see a single reason not to keep engaging on fascism and trading with fascists!"
I'm so sick of everyone and everything
Edit: there, I went and "flaired" my comment so I can be allowed to freaking comment
SaulsAll@reddit
Ignoring everything else, this is self-defeating. If you have a duty to PREVENT, then you cant say that duty doesnt kick in until the thing HAPPENS. If the event happens, then you have FAILED to prevent it.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Uh huh. They investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing you say? Why, I'm sure there's absolutely no ulterior motives with the statements or conclusions they've made, and they are certainly not just lying to cover for themselves and the West's favorite ethnostate.
Potential-Main-8964@reddit
The grass isn’t green, said a UK lawyer
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