is it true that the British class system is more of an unofficial caste system?
Posted by LegitimateFoot3666@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 218 comments
I've heard it said that no matter how much money you possess or what achievements/failures you accumulate, you belong to your class for life and will be treated as such be it overt or covert, even by otherwise educated or forward-thinking folk. And that groups like the Travelers are effectively the equivalents of the Dalits and related groups like the later Romani or "Gypsies" who don't fit into the system at all, but have a long adversarial relationship with it regardless.
Supposedly, relative newcomers to all this like the Polish, Caribbeans, Desis, Africans, and Albanians sit in an ambiguous outside status much like the Mleccha tribes of Ancient India. Not despised by default like the true Outcasts, but not at home at any tier of the caste hierarchy.
Moreover, is it true that the highest classes generally derive their ancestry from newer conquerors like the Normans and Danes while the lower classes generally have more ancestry from the older Anglo-Saxon-Jute, Insular Celtic, and Neolithic farming tribes?
t_beermonster@reddit
It's quite hard for an individual to drop to a lower class than they were born to. Certainly without serious issues like violent crime, homelessness, and the less socially acceptable substance abuses.
Moving up can be done within an individual's lifetime, becoming a high court judge, senior flag officer, permanent secretary of a civil service department, ambassador, master of an oxbridge college, that sort of thing. More common is for the Parents to achieve the nouveau riche financial status and the children or grandchildren to gain the social class through education and networking.
A person who moves up a class in their lifetime is always in danger of falling or being knocked back to the class they were born to.
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
I certainly agree with you. Hence why new money pay for their children to go too Public School, in the hope their grandchildren will be accepted by that class.
TJ_Rowe@reddit
Independent Schools do the same job for going from working class to middle class.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
And grammar schools?
TJ_Rowe@reddit
Only exist in Kent (and maybe a couple of other counties) and are irrelevant to most of the country.
Wd91@reddit
Grammar schools are everywhere and its very very normal for middle and lower class children to get into them.
I've worked in 2 grammar schools and i don't think any of the children at all were "upper" class.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Historically that was not the case though, they were open to anyone who could pass the 11+ and were fantastic promoters of social mobility.
CMDRZapedzki@reddit
They really weren't. Anyone from an actual working class background got bullied to fuck by the posher kids.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Are you speaking from personal experience?
CMDRZapedzki@reddit
No, I never went to a grammar school, but several friends from my estate did, and one of them actually had to move schools to a comp because it was so bad.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Can I ask what part of the country?
richmeister6666@reddit
There’s only 3 ways to separate children, ability, wealth and postcode. Unfortunately we’ve gone with the “postcode” option, which is essentially choosing wealth via the back door.
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
Or military schools. My best friend went to navel school in London & read PPE at UCL. His father worked for a Spanish product company & lived in Barking.
The company was very progressive & they bought a house in East Peckham, Kent in the mid 70s. So you could say his son became middle class. I very much doubt this could be achieved today from such humble beginnings. Unless you’re super bright & can get a scholarship.
But the important thing for him was confidence. His years intake at UCL was 90% independent/public school in 1981. If you don’t have that confidence & cannot debate, I highly doubt you will ever gain a degree from the top ten.
As stated Grammar schools would also provide this level of education & personnel growth. But it depends what county you are in. I grew up in East Sussex near Lewes. I was never given the option of going to Lewes Grammar school. Even though I have a BA from a top twenty university.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Yes it's all about confidence and being articulate. Whatever gives you that is the key to future success.
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
Good point about articulation. He found that vital skill vital during my degree.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
That's why public schools focus a lot on public speaking, debating, mooting etc.
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
Exactly. Obviously it’s more important with a arts degree. But even for the sciences, you need to be able to communicate effectively. I’m sure both grammar & military schools also focus on these skills too.
Timmytanks40@reddit
Do you guys really care about this in your day to day lives? I really hope there are benefits to this.
Are you more likely to be denied business loans or something tangible or is this the same crowd watching Love Island on the edge of their seats?
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
It affects every facet of British society on a daily basis. Whether the individual is aware of this or not. Yes people do care. Because you can be super bright & never get the opportunities, because you are not from the right background. Even if you have a great degree & speak another language; they will always pick their own.
Wd91@reddit
Absolute nonsense. There might be a very very small minority of businesses in a very very small minority of industries where class matters. Everywhere else degree and experience takes precedence.
Wd91@reddit
No. No one except for a very very small handful of people in the "upper classes" or working surrounded by the "upper classes" give a single solitary fuck. It has very little impact on basically anyones life whatsoever and is almost entirely meaningless in todays world.
Rich people send their kids to public schools for the measurably better learning outcomes, access to better universities as such, and therefore inevitably better lifetime earnings. Its nothing to do with class.
IAmLaureline@reddit
No, don't give a monkeys. Aristocracy is totally irrelevant to my daily life.
t_beermonster@reddit
Some people care, some don't, some say they don't but really do. Stereotypically class is a preoccupation of the middle class, unimportant save for marriages to the upper class, and largely ignored by the working class. Stereotypes are not reliable guides to individuals.
Less so today but doors can be opened, financial opportunities made available etc. based on class. Not always on a higher class gets the opportunity basis.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
For rich people it is about status and business contacts.
And yes people care about status
SnooRegrets8068@reddit
Not even slightly.
ans-myonul@reddit
I'm one of these people you mentioned in the first paragraph and I would say it's a lot more common than you think, especially for members of the LGBT+ community. I grew up middle class but I'm now underclass.
What often happens in these situations is that a person comes out as gay/bi/trans etc, and their parents either kick them out or make them feel so unsafe that they have to move out and cut all contact. They are now so traumatised from all of this that they are unfit to work because of their mental health so have to go on benefits.
I do also feel conflicted about using the label 'underclass' for myself because I have a middle-class background and I think my neighbours on the council estate can tell I'm different from them. So as other people have said, moving between classes can be quite complicated
t_beermonster@reddit
Being disowned in and of itself is the sort of thing that can but doesn't automatically start a generational class reduction, but doesn't change the individuals class.
Mental Health issues can cause individuals of middle or working class to fall in class status. For the upper class of course we have a somewhat indulgent attitude considering them eccentric rather than mental.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
You see yourself as part of the under class. But as someone from a very poor working class background, I would not have seen you as part of the underclass, but as posh but poor. This is why your neighbours can tell you are different to them.
I am part of the LGBT community and in my sixties so do understand. But try and get back into work. You do not want to be stuck in your current life for ever. It gets much harder the older you get.
Southernbeekeeper@reddit
The thing is though it you're a crown court judge and your dad is a fork lift truck driver and your mum is a TA, you wouldn't be seen as anything else than working class. You'd just be a working class crown court judge. You children might be seen as upper middle class thought.
t_beermonster@reddit
I don't think anyone would consider a high court judge to be working class, except maybe the judge their self.
Curryflurryhurry@reddit
I disagree. You’d have a working class background but it would be daft to pretend a crown court judge wasn’t middle class
I think it’s a myth that moving between classes is impossible or takes generations. What’s impossible or takes generations is becoming properly upper class (whatever that may mean). Working to middle and back is easy.
It’s not about money though, that’s true.
HungryFinding7089@reddit
Wes Streeting case in point
The_Nunnster@reddit
My family has moved down a social class, on both sides.
On my father’s side, my grandmother was the daughter of an army officer - he even had his own office in the horse barracks. She became a dentist and married my grandfather, born to a poor slum household and struggled to hold a job in the 80s economy. Despite being a dentist, with 5 kids, they were cash strapped. 3 of the children went into traditionally middle class lives - teachers, managers, married to an air traffic controller, etc. My dad and my uncle entered a trade, not bad money, but they both see themselves as working class.
On my mother’s side, she was the adoptive daughter of a teacher and a policeman. She had a more enjoyable childhood with more luxuries than my dad. She married him when she was working at BHS, trained to be a childminder, made good money doing it at home, then started working at a nursery, which is unreliable in paying her and what she does get is barely above minimum wage. She’s probably a grade lower than my dad, unskilled working class as opposed to skilled in a trade.
I’m at university now so we’ll have to see what the future has in store for me, lol.
kestrelita@reddit
You can move up through marriage too - my working class mum married into a middle class family, and I grew up middle class.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
Most people move up classes through marriage. Far more than do so through work.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
Most people move up classes through marriage. Far more than do so through work.
rising_then_falling@reddit
Some of my cousins shifted about two social classes in a generation - teen pregnancy, extended unemployment, partners in prison, falling out with family etc.
The gentry /aristocracy is still defined by title so you essentially have to marry in to it. But by being friends with that set and having sufficient money you can adopt their lifestyle of horses, dogs, hunting, worrying about a big house, etc.
Outside of the aristocracy class is behaviour based, not wealth based. In theory just behaving like a social class will make you part of it. In reality the behaviours are very subtle and it's not that easy to fake it. Additionally, most people like the social class they grew up in - moving class changes how people see you but doesn't really have that much direct impact on jobs or wealth these days. No hotel is going to claim they are full because of how you are dressed. No restaurant will give you wrise service for holding your fork the "wrong" way.
I've been in pubs where I was definitely the wrong social class and they tried their best to serve me as slowly as possible, but that's a rarity.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
Money is part of it, but only part of it. You have to be able to buy clothes for example to fit in to the middle class.
RobertvsRex@reddit
It barely exists at all. The line between working class and middle class is so blurred it basically doesn't exist any more, and being "upper class" means nothing as hereditary peerages can't sit in the lords any more and anyone with enough money can buy a country estate and hob nob with old money whenever they want
Physical-Money-9225@reddit
Stop watching Peaky Blinders
pleiadeslion@reddit
There's a good book called Watching the English by Kate Fox that explains class really well. It has very little or anything to do with how much money you have.
The_Dark_Vampire@reddit
A absolutely broke person living in a run down flat but born into a family that has a title (Lord,Honorable) will be thought of as higher than a working class person that won the lotto and is living in a mansion.
Look at Princess Kate she was considered common even though she's probably posher than 98% of other people, but because she didn't have a title, she was genuinely thought of as nothing more than a commoner
thymeisfleeting@reddit
It was only the tabloids that banged on about Kate being a commoner. She went to Marlborough college so had you met her as a young woman you’d have gone “oh yeah she’s posh”. They liked to call her middle class but really she was always upper middle.
You can be posh without having a title.
HungryFinding7089@reddit
Her family earned money not inherited, so "Waity Katy" as she was known as, was at the top of the middle class.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
There are lots of rumours that the family did not earn money in the respectable way they claimed. Similar businesses make enough money for a nice but ordinary middle class life, not the kind of life they were leading.
YchYFi@reddit
What are the rumours?
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
That the party company was a money laundering company for Uncle Garys drugs money.
HungryFinding7089@reddit
I heard this too
thymeisfleeting@reddit
Yes, I know. But upper middle class people who go to public schools like Marlborough would still be considered posh by the vast majority of the country.
I live in a part of the country full of “posh twats” as my northern husband would put it. They’re not all landed gentry! That would be absurd. But if you live in a rectory with an orangery, sent your kids to Winchester College and drive a beaten up handover full of spaniels then you’re posh despite not having a title!
GlitteringBryony@reddit
Having gone to a school that had a real mix of different kinds of posh people - The ones who had titles or who were from titled families, were a different set entirely to the ones who were "just" from rich families, who were in turn a totally different set again from the ones who were the first- or second- generation of their families to grow up rich after one of their parents had opened a successful business.
The phrase "Oh, her family only bought (Local Stately Home) in the 40s, it isn't really THEIRS" is going to stick in my head for a long time.
Hyperion2023@reddit
The caste system is utterly rigid. You never lose your surname, and other identifiers, so migration isn’t really possible, and despite all the anti-casteist laws in India, serious discrimination persists.
The British class system is ingrained but less formal. It is possible to move class, over multiple generations. What a lot of responses here suggest is that as an individual, you can’t hide your class origins and be considered suddenly fitting a different class because your circumstances have changed. But it’s clear from history (see programmes like ‘Who do you think you are’ ) that inter generational mobility is possible. What ‘signs’ of working class background (accent, consumer choices, schooling) can change over a generation or two and contrary to some of the posts here, the younger family members, brought up without direct experience of working class life, are fully accepted as being of their ‘acquired’ class.
TJ_Rowe@reddit
This is what parents are trying to do when they send their kids to private school.
thymeisfleeting@reddit
Case in point: all the aristocratic families who had to marry industrialists or Americans for their money to help prop up their ailing estates. Princess Diana’s great grandmother was the daughter of an American stockbroker, Churchill’s mother was American. Lady Astor too. The Viceroy of India was married to another American. Consuela Vanderbilt was famously unhappily married to the Duke of Marlborough.
Delicious-Cut-7911@reddit
Catherine Middleton's maternal side were commoners and mine workers. Her father's side were posh. All the men died in WW1 so the sister inherited all the money and Catherine is her descendent. Go further back you will find Middleton in Leeds belonged to one of her ancesters and even further back the middletons were aristocrats.
Nosferatatron@reddit
If your mansion has jet skis parked outside and giant murals of Tommy Shelby on the wall then it's immediately clear you're common
Often_Tilly@reddit
I believe that anyone without a title is a "commoner" in a slightly more technical sense than calling someone "common" (as in "common as muck"). Hence the name of the house of commons - it's the place the commoners (ie those without a title) meet.
Katharinemaddison@reddit
Yup. Additionally the sons of peers could sit there till they inherited their title. Really it just meant ‘people currently ineligible for a seat in the House of Lords.
(One notorious example is Tony Benn who campaigned for the right to renounce his peerage so he could go back into the Commons).
HungryFinding7089@reddit
Anthony Wedgwood Benn, the socialist's Tory.
MixGroundbreaking622@reddit
The tabloids just wanted to run with a "the prince married one of us!!!!" Type story. Even though Kate comes from a family worth several million.
Alundra828@reddit
Lots of specifically Victorian British literature paints a picture of this reality really well. The aristocracy was always the top dog, and then suddenly industrialists came along and with their new fangled factories could generates vast amounts of wealth, enough to elevate them to the sort of prices points reserved for the aristocracy. And when the industrialists made efforts to integrate into the British upper class... well, let's just say it didn't go very well. Despite being unfathomably wealthy, and wielding a lot of power, the aristocracy made it clear "wealth isn't the point" lol.
I wouldn't say the aristocracy is a "caste system" though per se. You can after all, marry into it. So that alone disqualifies it as a caste system. It is a very restrictive social strata.
Maxxibonn@reddit
That’s why a French-style revolution is still badly needed.
YchYFi@reddit
It didn't get rid of the aristocracy at all. In fact they were restored somewhat a century later.
AmazingPangolin9315@reddit
Contrary to popular belief, the French Revolution didn't cause the French aristocracy to go away as a social class. The Revolution removed the aristocracy from power, and stripped them of certain legal privileges, but if you go into present day France you still find them quite present as a social class. Many of them still live in their castles or mansions. They have even created a mutual society to help impoverished nobility, with 2300 member families.
erinoco@reddit
Yes. In many countries where nobility has been formally abolished - France, Germany, Japan - the old nobility still form an exclusive club, with their own meeting places, or social rituals such as balls - and they still use their lost status and connections, and what wealth they have left, for leverage of various kinds.
Certain-Associate970@reddit
That's how you end up with a Napoleon-style dictator in charge of the country.
ItsaGEO1994@reddit
No.
LegitimateFoot3666@reddit (OP)
Huh
Is that why so many stories back then had plots about broke nobles being forced to "degrade" themselves by marrying their children to industrialists and bankers who wanted titles for their descendants?
fourlegsfaster@reddit
And American heiresses
Hellolaoshi@reddit
Even Lord Randolph Churchill was married to an American heiress.
__The_Kraken__@reddit
And the Duke of Marlborough married a Vanderbilt girl!
HungryFinding7089@reddit
Downton Abbey
fourlegsfaster@reddit
Also in fiction Henry James, Edith Wharton and P.G. Wodehouse, in fact, Winston Churchill's family several times and Lady Astor amongst others.
MirrorObjective9135@reddit
Same happened in France as well, even to this day, which I never understood after the revolution; those uber rich specifically wanting to marry in poor aristocracy are mostly seen as weirdo by the most of us though, although they probably don’t give a shit what the peasants thinks, oh well if they want to volunteer their neck for the next revolution it’s on them.
erinoco@reddit
However, there was an established method of social mobility, which most industrialists did follow, as did nabobs, bankers, slavers, and wealthy merchants before them. When you had done all you could via trade, you would sell out of the business and buy land, preferably securing somewhere you could make a contiguous estate. You would then officially have recognised status in County society - you would then be appointed to the Commission of the Peace, join in the County social round, and so on.
The next stage would be rising in status. You (or, probably, your son or grandson) would then seek to build political influence. You would try and secure control in a parliamentary borough, or, at least, a solid interest which others would have to woo to secure the seat. If that got you into Parliament, you would then seek to transfer to the County seat in Parliament; that would secure your place in the pecking order, and allow you to use your borough interest as patronage. If you managed this, then you would probably gain a baronetcy before long.
The final stage would be to gain enough wealth and influence to secure a noble title, to maintain and enhance your position via marriage and political graft (such as land grants or lucrative offices), and, ultimately, to become a family of landed magnates, like the great Whig dynasties, with estates and political influence across the country, as well as influence at Court. While very few families went the whole way, the Osbornes in the Tudor and Stuart period are a classic example. In 150 years, the heads of the family went from a Kentish apprentice clothworker in London to the Dukedom of Leeds, steadily advancing generation by generation.
What I think led to the tension in the late Victorian period is that land became considerably less attractive financially than it had been in the past, and more liable to taxation. In addition, for the first time, it was possible to hand down multi-generational wealth easily if it weren't held in land, and families with investments were able to outpace the asset-rich and cash-poor.
stueynz@reddit
An illustrious military career gets you into the lower levels of the peerage. Viscount Lord Nelson; and winning the whole war gets you from minor Irish aristocracy to a Dukedom. Wellington
rcgl2@reddit
This is a really good analysis.
As you say, there are ways into the upper classes. If you have enough wealth and influence from industry/mercantile activity/finance, you could obtain a peerage for yourself which then passed down to your children, whom you would have educated alongside the children of the existing notability and whose social circles they would move in. After a couple of generations, your family will be indistinguishable from the older aristocracy for many purposes (other than maybe snobbery).
itsnobigthing@reddit
Like the objections to Elizabeth Bennet’s aunt and uncle in Pride and Prejudice - because they are “in trade” (despite the Bingley’s fortune also coming from industry too)
Hyperion2023@reddit
Good point. The new industrialists had to be content with being at the top of the middle class, and perhaps it was at this point that the 3 tier middle class came about (lower-middle, middle-middle and upper middle).
No_Sport_7668@reddit
Interesting reference.
My dad was raised very working class but ended up very successful and well off. He still identifies as working class and has struggled to feel that he ‘fits in’ with the better off middle classes.
Another example, a kid I remember teaching who prodigal from a very humble background, outstanding intelligence, left school at 16 to work in the sock factory with his dad.
There seem to be strong cultures and states of mind associated with the social groupings that are hard to shake. For example many working class people I’ve known are often proud grafters and see anything but hard working martyrdom as an affront. Middle classes might be more inclined to push academic success.
So it’s necessarily a hierarchy, although there is a clear imbalance of ‘power’, working classes graft, middle classes study, (I’m too prejudice to offer insight into upper class but from my perspective, biases admitted, the upperclasses play golf and cream off everyone else).
BulkyScientist4044@reddit
The big example being almost noone in the UK (except those rather over immersed in US cultural exports) would consider Donald Trump Upper Class, whereas he is in the US because money.
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
But still not OLD money - summering in the Hamptons Gilded Era families!
golflimadata@reddit
Excellent book recommendation on this topic. I've not read it for a while and am going to pull it off my bookshelf and have another read!
cookiesandginge@reddit
Thank you for this. I’m writing a novel about class in the UK and wanted to research it.
TrueCrimeFanToCop@reddit
This book is sooooo good!
HungryFinding7089@reddit
Kate Fox is an excellent anthropologist.
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
Just whom you are born too🤔
AdPale1469@reddit
yes it is absolutely true
MovingTarget2112@reddit
My parents got through the Depression. Mum was Lower Working Class - unskilled labour. Dad learned a trade and became Upper Working Class.
Grammar School in the seventies was the social ladder that got Upper Working Class kids like me into university and management, therefore Lower Middle Class.
Studying Law or Medicine and making a career of it could get my contemporaries into the Upper Middle Class, like Sir Keir Starmer.
Upper Class is the social glass ceiling. You have to be born into it. Old money, public school, networking, all that.
toroferney@reddit
I’ve never heard of lower and upper working class (and I spend a lot of time on mumsnet who love a class debate). upper middle class?
Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit
Mumsnet do love a class debate but all the discussion is about strata within the middle class.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
Because they are middle class and understand that class but know fuck all about the working class.
Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit
Precisely.
MixGroundbreaking622@reddit
Upper middle class would be your new money types. Celebrities, wealthy CEOs, high ranking public servants, senior military officers etc.
Lower middle class would be management types, doctors, lawyers etc
MassiveMoron69@reddit
Management, lawyers and doctors are more like middle middle. I'm lower middle and a lot of people similar are like teachers or clerks, like mid to low rank office types.
Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit
I agree with you. Upper middle means private school without budgeting too hard, impressive network; middle middle is the kind of professional who can sign your passport application; lower middle works at a computer in an air conditioned office or in a slightly suboptimal WFH set-up.
MassiveMoron69@reddit
Exactly, my neighbors are a mix of both and the middle middles have nicer cars and marginally more interesting holidays.
cpwken@reddit
When I was studying British Social Studies in the 80s the classifications were
Broadly speaking they corresponded pretty well to modern SEG classifications so I've added the corresponding classifications in brackets in case that helps.
Upper working is skilled trades, vs lower working which is unskilled (more accurately unqualified, lots of these jobs do require skills). Electrician or plumber vs fast food worker.
The fun starts when the successful plumber starts his (or hers!) own business and starts employing people and becomes a company director. In SEG terms he'll jump to B or A (depending on how successful he is) but may well continue to regard himself as Upper Working.
Alternatively, he's a social climber and desperately wants to be seen as Upper Middle, which if he tries too hard may mean the existing Upper Middle will reject him.
My favourite example of that dynamic was the furore John Prescott caused when he called himself middle class. He was Deputy Prime Minister at the time, undisputably Upper Middle in status.
Nevertheless was accused of denying has working class background by his dad, and at the same time ridiculed by middle class commentators.
The whole thing was ridiculous but I think that his crime was that whilst he'd undoubtedly progressed into upper middle in job status and, at least partially, lifestyle, he'd not modified his speech and mannerism sufficiently to disguise his background.
MovingTarget2112@reddit
The E and D categories on the old ABC1C2DE socioeconomic scale.
The difference between an unskilled labourer and a plumber or electrician.
Lazy_Age_9466@reddit
Thank you so much for recognising the differences in the working class. Most middle class people seem to not see these graduations. And yes it is the upper working class kids that got into grammar school, and could afford to take up their place.
Salty-Selection-4351@reddit
Exactly this. Everyone seem to accept and perpetuate the situation. Even the uderclass
Fluid_Succotash4032@reddit
It is an interesting story to tell about our country, but truthfully I think it is exaggerated. I have lived in Spain and France, and was surprised to learn that the class system to be extremely similar, even down to mannerisms and behaviours of respective classes.
The Dalit comparison is ridiculous. A local working class man would not be barred from the same country pub frequented by an aristocrat; coming from a rural place I can tell you this is not the case.
Two things that maybe are distinctive to the UK: 1. Accents form a massive part of your personal identity and how others perceive you. It is not uncommon at all for people to affect a higher or lower class accent depending on their environment. There is mockery towards all accents. 2. I noticed when I lived abroad that when two British people for the first time, there is a funny preliminary moment where they try to gauge each other’s social class. It is not as simple as accents or regions these days, so they might ask questions or make comments that seem strange to outsiders, such as remarks about what food you like to eat (something my Spanish friends found bizarre). I wouldn’t say it’s sinister, but it is fair to say there is a massive INTEREST in class.
Akadormouse@reddit
We all want to 'place' new acquaintances and working shortcuts help.
Sepa-Kingdom@reddit
I can comment a little on the statement about migrants.
Coming from Australia, my accent removes me from the class system, allowing people to take me at face value. If I am with middle class people, they assume I’m middle class (correctly, as I’m educated and this country has been good to me career-wise). However I can also be taken for working class, and my language (eg using the word serviette instead of napkin) can sometimes be an indicator of working class background.
Whoever said that accent is a huge part of assessing class is correct. It’s not just an Australian accent, but another lady on here said her French accent does the same, and interestingly, it does the same for my Scottish partner.
It is also noticeable that a university education significantly reduces or even results in the loss of people’s native accent. It can be quite startling to be around someone in a stressful professional moment and the regional accent emerges!
Some locations even have class associated accents - the typical Liverpudlian accent is a working class one, I once had a Liverpudlian boyfriend with a completely different accent that he said was middle class!
I can’t comment on other’s migrant experience, nor can I comment in the experience of second generation migrants. Hopefully other people will jump in to add their mite to this fascinating conversation!
PlatformNo8576@reddit
Police protect the Upper Classes from everyone else, because they saw what happened on Bastille day.
genjin@reddit
Not a single word of that is true. There is no class system.
Flat_Fault_7802@reddit
White Protestants at the top.
BestEver2003@reddit
I’m French and I find it much easier to fit into the UKs class system than my BF who is English lower middle class. I’m just accepted by way of my accent and he isn’t cos he gets asked about his school (one way the upper classes distinguish is by which public school you went to). At Cambridge he had a much harder time having come from a big standard comprehensive school than I did coming from a normal French school.
Sepa-Kingdom@reddit
I am the same, but in my case, the accent is Australian. Interestingly, my partner is Scottish and feels the same - his accent also puts him outside the English class system. I have no idea is there’s a Scottish class siren that he would have been subject to off he hasn’t moved south, though.
IndelibleIguana@reddit
Travelers are nothing like the Dalits. Travelers choose to be exactly the way they are. They are marginalised because of the way they behave.
Mediocre_Sandwich458@reddit
Utter nonsense.
paddydog48@reddit
I saw someone who is the their mid 40’s state that they had never eaten McDonald’s, this person was born into vast wealth and went to a private school and grew up on an estate so I’m guessing it may be that their wasn’t a McDonald’s nearby or his parents wouldn’t ever dream of visiting a McDonald’s, got me thinking that most of us have experienced McDonald’s at least once in our existence, I suppose it is a very working class endeavour.
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
Nobody mentioning Danny Dyer ?
Rich actor from working class London routes but definitely not become middle class is actually descended from actual royalty.
A direct descendant of King Edward III, he also has connections to other prominent figures, including French King Louis IX and to Rollo the Viking, the ancestor of William the Conqueror.
paddydog48@reddit
Of course, our unwritten and unspoken system is called social engineering where children are sent to private schools to mix with other children from wealthy family’s, one day mixing in those circles may help you get a job.
Does a doctor or solicitor marry a cleaner? No, those people don’t mix in the same circles by design.
Why couldn’t Prince William end up with a till worker in Tesco? because it is made sure that he attends a certain standard of university where he will mix with others who have a certain level of wealth and social standing.
So whilst we deride the Indian caste system we must understand that we have an unofficial one in the UK that has been present for many, many years, it’s just one that isn’t ever acknowledged.
AwaWhiYourPish@reddit
To some extent, but generally there is room to move up/down and it is based largely on behaviour, education and attitude rather than birth status.
Literally no one can know that. Generally speaking rich lords pass their wealth and privilidge down to their kids and like looks after like etc but its FAR from something simple and exact. People could earn their fortrune in various ways and if their children are raised alongside those of other lords etc they'd gradually be able to rise through the various social ranks etc.
ImpressNice299@reddit
I think the class system is enormously exaggerated in this country.
I’ve lived in the worst town in the country and worked nights in a warehouse, and I’ve sponsored charity dinners and been the only one at the table without a knighthood. I’ve never once felt out of place by virtue of belonging to the wrong class. It just isn’t how anybody thinks.
jajay119@reddit
I think ‘class’ is very much defined by economics. Given more and more people are struggling with money even if they’re ’upper middle or middle class’ now there’s less of a traditional class based system and more of a ‘the richest and the poorest’ attitude.
notThaTblondie@reddit
Yep. That all seems pretty accurate. Class is much less defined these days but "new money" was definitely something that was looked down on, they just didn't have the breeding, darling" Universal education has evened the playing field a lot between working to upper middle class but cultural differences are still there.
BusyBeeBridgette@reddit
You can move between the lower classes to upper middle classes. Typically just having a degree will automatically make you middle class. Upper Class, however, you have to typically be born into or marry into.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
Exactly this - but it is weird how many people will insist that they're still working class
It isn't that middle class people from working class backgrounds aren't accepted - it's that middle class people from working class backgrounds won't accept that they are now middle class
There was a survey done a couple of years ago which showed that about 20% of people who called themselves working class not only were in middle class jobs - but so were their parents and 3 out of 4 of their grandparents
ProfPathCambridge@reddit
It is because class is more complicated than that. Class is both current lifestyle and deep-grained ethos. My dad was a truck driver and I grew up working class - being working class in deeply engrained in who I am as a person. I’m now a senior Oxbridge professor, so my life is certainly white collar professional / middle class. My son is growing up as upper middle class in Cambridge, so he’ll have that as part of his upbringing, even if he ends up driving trucks like his granddad.
When I say I am working class, I am not delusional about my income. I know it is well above average. I am making a statement about my values and where my origin is grounded. It is the same as calling myself Australian, even though I’ve lived most of my adult life outside Australia. It is not denying that I have British citizenship and live in the U.K., it is a statement that my outlook on life is still heavily shaped by growing up in Australia.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
You basically just reduce class to being - what I feel like I am
Which you can do - but it makes any study on the effect of class effectively meaningless because it stops it being measurable
ProfPathCambridge@reddit
Of course it is still measurable, and in fact plenty of people do study and measure class by parental income (which is what I said - I feel class is more influenced by income growing up than by current income).
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
It is worth reiterating the study showing a significant number of people who called themselves working class were in middle class jobs - and so were both of their parents.
But drawing it back to the original question - it does show how far away from a rigid caste system it is that you can use different definitions if you want to and many people just decide whether they're working or middle class.
In general I think the effect of class in the UK is wildly overstated.
A few percentage have the money and network that gives them and their descendants a distinct advantage. A few percentage of trades people have family that are so rigidly embedded in their trade that they have a massive advantage in that field - but can't escape it
But for over 90% of the population - your class just doesn't affect your life.
Your family income will, your accent might - but your class doesn't.
ProfPathCambridge@reddit
No, it shows there is a discrepancy between what middle class “is” vs the government definition.
Do you have a good explanation for why a lawyer on £80k is middle class but a plumber on the same is working class? A profession-based definition is just admitting that there is something beyond salary.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
Maybe it shows the discrepancy between what class actually "is" vs your personal belief in what it is?
ProfPathCambridge@reddit
You were the one saying it is weird “how many people” did not agree with the class definition placed upon them, so it isn’t my personal definition that is unusual
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
It's weird because there are accountants whose parents are lawyers and teachers calling themselves working class
And like I said, it's fine to decide that class comes down to feelings and vibes - but analysis and strategy needs concrete definitions.
nonsequitur__@reddit
I agree completely
justeUnMec@reddit
"Just having a degree" will not shed class these days. A degree from the right university where you lived in halls/college alongside people from different classes and are exposed to new habits and ways of living away from your roots, perhaps. If you live at home while going to an inner city former poly with mostly other working class kids from the same area, you'll not lose the class signifiers to the same extent.
MixGroundbreaking622@reddit
Also worth noting that the "upper class" is shrinking rapidly as their money dries up. Soon we're going to be left with just the royals and their extended family.
StillJustJones@reddit
There’s a small element of truth in your post but also a lot of ‘tish and piffle’ (if you’re upper class) or ‘uttter bollocks’ if you’re working class.
If feels like you’re saying that ‘class’ and ‘success’ are the same thing? They’re not. For example Alan Sugar is from a working class background, has made a fortune and has had influence and roles within the ‘establishment’ for decades. His class has not stopped him being socially mobile - however…. I’d put money on him self identifying as working class.
Also your comments about recent immigrants to the U.K. and their position in society (you said ‘not being at home at any tier of the caste society) show a massive misunderstanding about Great Britain.
look at the tv show ‘Man like Mobeen’. It’s a superb snapshot of working class life in the West Midlands. The last Conservative prime minister (little Rishi Sunak) a born in the U.K. to Indian immigrant parents. People from ethnic minorities have as much chance to be socially mobile as a barrow boy cockney oik like Alan Sugar.
Class is a thing but it does not matter an iota in daily life.
It may be a problem if you’re trying to break a ceiling somewhere within some kind of established order if things (such as within higher echelons of the city of London freemasonry or some other bollocks no one cares about)….. but in general, class doesn’t matter that much.
overcoil@reddit
I think you raise a good point where for most people you mostly only encounter the class barrier if you try and cross it. I would add if you give away your upbringing through a behavior/ purchase/ opinion.
So if you're a real diligent student at school and university but don't have the accent you may find some of your peers being promoted ahead of you despite you being objectively better on paper because the cut of their jib is just better.
Chris Eubank and a lot of footballers (and Americans from a British POV) betray their working class roots with their financial choices. David Beckham may have an OBE and hang out with the Crown Prince of Bahrain for a photoshoot, but I expect I'll be long dead before I see a Fleet Admiral or a minor royal with those kind of tattoos.
RickStarkey@reddit
Alan Sugar is from an ethnic minority - he's Jewish.
StillJustJones@reddit
What’s your point? Jewish people can still be working class.
Surely adding a further characteristic that’s different from the upperclass default/norm of the ‘establishment’ and Alan Sugar still being able to be socially mobile, becoming a Lord (and a financial success) just accentuates my point.
Manfred-Disco@reddit
It was certainly more fluid pre-victorian times. The Aristos had no issues with the nouveau riche joining their ranks. The only noise would be jealousy coming from the rest of the aspirational Middle classes who hadnt been accepted.
Buy an estate, marry into the blue, send sons to Eton and youre all good.
Budget_Newspaper_514@reddit
In the uk as long as you are rich you are considered upper class if you are born in to a particular family it doesn’t matter because if your family loses all the money/goes bankrupt you are considered a nobody
CaterpillarLoud8071@reddit
The lines are more blurred now as mixing between classes is common. A person will have aspects of working and lower middle, lower middle and upper middle or upper middle and upper, and be able to code switch. But a person's position is pretty fixed, yes, because it's cultural and you can hear it in their accent, etc
liztwicks@reddit
Class in Britain got a lot more rigid after the French Revolution. The nobs were terrified of revolution happening here (possible, but unlikely). So they put up the barricades.
50 years before a poor boy who joined the Royal Navy as a cabin boy could rise, pass some naval exams, and become an Admiral. During Nelson’s lifetime that changed - you had to ‘pass for a gentlemen’ before you could ‘pass for an officer.’
Since WWII the barriers have definitely softened. the aristocracy (upper class) is still the hardest to break into, but then, they are largely irrelevant in modern life3.
Defiant_Practice5260@reddit
No. I've heard terrible stories of mistreatment of people of the "wrong" caste. People killed for wearing the wrong shoes, so many different stories https://www.nationalgeographic.com/pages/article/indias-untouchables-face-violence-discrimination
Britain is nothing like this, like not even close.
Yes, Britain does have class issues, but outside of a very small area in London, you wouldn't know it. Dalits know it because it follows them everywhere.
snow880@reddit
Yeah I live in the countryside and no one seems to care much. The millionaires and the unskilled workers sit in the same pub chatting together with their dogs.
splat_1234@reddit
The upper class (historical landowners) and the upper middles historically have always mingled with the working class (labourers) especially in the pub. It’s only the uppity lower middles that wouldn’t do so as they worry they might be seen to be working class (credit to watching the English)
MassiveMoron69@reddit
The countryside is a bit different from my short time in sussex, people have a shared kind of rural pride that transends class boundaries a bit.
apexfOOl@reddit
Britain has not had a bloody revolution, foreign occupation or open civil war since the 1640s. By contrast, nearly every European nation has experienced at least one of these in the past 200 years, and continues to be psychologically scarred by it on a collective level. This is just one reason as to why the British and their semi-feudal society are seemingly so placid compared to Europeans. You can argue about social equality and distribution of wealth, and some British people may even listen to you; but, by and large, a majority will walk away and scoff at your impracticality and naivety.
Look at it from an electoral perspective as well. Since Benjamin Disraeli enfranchised the male working class in 1868, the Tories have been the most successful party, with some major exceptions such as the overturn after WW2 with Clement Atlee and Tony Blair's astonishing success in 1997.
chukkysh@reddit
Tl;tr: basically, yes, there's a kind of caste system, and it's hard to escape where you come from. Mobility has replaced nobility to an extent, but people are generally happy with, and proud of, being working class, and there's a bond between working class people that's stronger than geographic bonds. If anything, people are often guilty of their privilege, and try to play it down.
I'd say the comments about the Travelling community ring true. They are vilified in the press, and communities will rise up in opposition if a Travellers' site is proposed nearby. But they also have their own traditions and ways of life, and don't particularly envy the house-dwellers. You do hear stories of Travellers "settling down" and just hating it.
The upper classes (aristocracy) are largely the subject of ridicule among the vast majority of Brits. The world has moved on without them, and the things that once made them rich (basically owning land and its people) no longer apply. Most of those that survive are either poor or have sold their property to the National Trust. There are exceptions (e.g. the Duke of Westminster) but they're rare. The billionaire class in the UK is mainly new money now - people like Dyson, Ratcliffe and Branson.
In between, you've got the middle and working class. "Middle class" doesn't mean the same as it does in the USA. It's working people, but they're in the "respectable" trades - law, medicine, finance, local and national government etc. They might use state education rather than private, but their wealth allows them to move into the catchment areas of the best schools (it's a factor in house prices) and/or have their kids privately tutored to ease them into grammar schools with entrance exams.
The working classes are traditionally manual labourers and those in the service industries. They will almost invariably have a state education, with a choice of schools that's largely restricted by their location, which will tend to be in the "poorer" parts of town.
But there is definitely something else, which is hard to put your finger on. The young middle class have opportunities that working classes don't, through education, contacts and ability to take financial risks. Working class kids who become rich adults are more likely to have done it through hard work and talent than just taking a load of risk-free punts and investments. It can take several generations for the accents to disappear though. People who know know - and it can be both negative and positive, in both directions.
There's a weird phenomenon in Britain where middle class people downplay their comfortable upbringings, and pretend to be working class. You'll see dozens of examples in any university bar. There's a kind of "purity test", especially in the music industry, where working class artists are taken more seriously, and it's quite embarrassing when it turns out that the latest indie hopeful has a trust fund or a private education. A lot of journalists, especially those representing the Left, also like to be seen as lower in class than they actually are.
I suppose this all adds up to a caste system of sorts, but it's soft-edged, and the people within the "castes" generally don't particularly want to move out of it. Everyone would like more money, but it won't change your class. However, it's far, far away from the places where actual caste systems pertain.
Fuck me, that went on a bit.
nonsequitur__@reddit
I agree with pretty much all of what you’ve said. Being ‘middle class’ is generally not something that most outside of the middle class aspire to. One thing I don’t fully align with you on though are the trades. I work for an organisation that is essentially two of those you listed as middle class, but went to a school that was shut down for basically being dreadful. The majority of the lawyers in the organisation are very much working class and proud of it, although the barristers tend to come from more affluent backgrounds.
I agree there are those who have a financial cushion and greater opportunities because of where they live etc which allow them to take more risks. I’ve noticed that these are usually desirable but not prolific jobs, and often creative - TV, publishing, the arts etc, because they can afford to work for little or no pay to get the contacts and experience they need.
chukkysh@reddit
Yeah, a lot of my working-class peers have careers in law, medicine and academia. I guess there was always a small proportion that did, even though things have improved a lot. In the past, they'd have had to un-learn their Liverpool/Manchester accent if they wanted to be taken seriously, but that's not the case any more (up to a point).
I have a couple of friends who worked at the BBC when it was on Oxford Road, and they basically said that middle management (i.e. the gatekeepers to upper management) were basically all privately educated. That was about 15 years ago though. Not sure if it's still the same.
I just meant that middle-class people were never the "idle rich" in the UK. They definitely worked, but still would not be considered working class. And it would be considered beneath them to work outside of those types of professions.
Realistic-River-1941@reddit
The issue with journalists is that getting into the sector can - in practice if not theory - require unpaid internships, which need the bank of mum and dad to be viable.
Halo_Orbit@reddit
100% spot on 👍🏻
OrnamentalHerman@reddit
No, that's not strictly true.
putlersux@reddit
I am a relative newcomer sitting outside of the class system. I work in a professional job, educated to a degree level, my hobbies include visiting cathedrals, and volunteering in a museum. I guess this sounds like somewhat middle class?
tb5841@reddit
You do not belong to your class for life.
If you get a degree and/or a typical middle class job, and speak in a middle class way, nobody cares about who you were born to or where.
snow880@reddit
Apparently who you are friends with and your hobbies also makes a difference according to a test I did once lol. My husband and I got different answers because I’ve been to the opera and have a friend who’s a solicitor.
nonsequitur__@reddit
lol wtf
smileystarfish@reddit
No, we do not have any "Dalit" equivalent.
Whilst class progression in the UK is somewhat limited, in that you can't really become upper class, there is no hard barrier such as the Dalit face in India. There are no jobs "below" working class level.
Even historically, jobs like the rag & bone men, nightsoil collectors etc were still working class jobs.
the_speeding_train@reddit
The only class divide I see is between workers and owners. And that divide is enforced very strictly by keeping the workers infantalised and powerless.
AtrapaElPezDorado@reddit
Yes this is correct. Arguably allies and commonwealth rank ahead of other “newcomers”
Otherwise_Craft9003@reddit
Yes and no, take Boris Johnson, his great grandad is Ali Kemal, he changed his name get the kids through the private school system and there we go.
If you speak posh, anglicised name etc you will get treated differently.
nonsequitur__@reddit
I think the accent is still the key part nowadays tbh.
Realistic-River-1941@reddit
The key thing that confuses outsiders is that it is not about money. A plumber might have more money than the vicar. A footballer could have more cash than a duke. A successful lawyer might see themselves as working class because their grandad once spoke to a coal miner and they watch Association Football.
nonsequitur__@reddit
To be fair, most of the lawyers at my place of work are solidly working class. The barristers tend to be from more affluent backgrounds. Agree with your assessment that it’s not about money.
Worldly-Till4308@reddit
A lot of what you’re saying is true. Most of the peerage in the uk can trace their ancestry back to the Norman’s as they pretty much carved up the UK (even scotland, Robert the bruce being an example of a Norman descendant) and shared it between themselves. There have been studies finding people with Norman derived surnames are still wealthier than the average person 1000 years later than the conquest. The anglo saxons were defeated so it makes sense that it isn’t the same in their case.
malcolmmonkey@reddit
“Lamb, beef and pork because they eat it. Sheep, cow and pig because we clean up its shit. The Norman names for them, the Saxon for us”
HungryFinding7089@reddit
The Anglo Saxons may have lost in 1066, but their culture never left. Magna Carta was a curtailing of the king's power, a reminder that the Norman kings may rule but there was a middle class even then. Peasants' revolt, too, though that was more because of the lack of people to do the land jobs like farming, to feed the aristocracy.
It's why the Tudors, with the remnants of Welsh (ap Tudur, whose line can be traced back to Hywel Dda's time) could sneak through and claim the crown (though Henry VII spent all his reign watching his back), and that the Anglo Saxon line continued through Edmund/Malcolm Canmore.
PurplePlodder1945@reddit
A friend of mine once told me that my daughter should aim for Oxford because it opens a lot of doors. It’s the old boys club. He’s self made, worked his way up, has his own company. But he can only go so far because he didn’t go to Oxford, he sees doors shut and can’t take advantage of opportunities and connections that they would have.
Really did make me think. We’re working class
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
I find it very hard to believe that not going to Oxford (do you mean Oxbridge?) is as limiting as that. What industry is your friend in?
PurplePlodder1945@reddit
Could be oxbridge. I don’t know the difference. He’s something to do with cars and has done well for himself. He could definitely see it, he has no connections, we’re from a small village in south wales.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Oxbridge means Oxford and Cambridge. They are ranked equally. You can get "connections" from your school and plenty of other universities, I don't believe you need to go to Oxford for this.
BaconLara@reddit
Ish. Bit more complicated and depends on other factors too
elementarydrw@reddit
Answer to every question ever:
lad_astro@reddit
Especially anything pertaining to British history!
LupercalLupercal@reddit
There are some landed gentry with no money whatsoever, but they will still be considered upper-class
Calm-Glove3141@reddit
Classism in the uk is upgraded and practiced the most by educated “ forward thinking folk “
Look at the stewert lee sub Reddit to get a glimpse of the hateful elite ism , or check the comments on a guardian article .
Heisperus@reddit
As someone who has worked in academia and research, that's not my experience at all. I have a fairly humble background and one of my best friends in the field comes from a family of farmers. Neither of us have experienced any issues whatsoever, instead you're judged on the quality of your ideas and your academic reputation.
One of the biggest issues I've seen is instead the reverse classism from the lower classes, which is something both me and my friend have faced. Lower class folk look down on people they see as getting "above their station" and if you improve your lot in life, you can expect to be ostracised by people you formerly called friends. Worse are the parents that actively reinforce in their kids that they're not going to achieve anything in life because of their background, and will oppose any sort of attempt to further their children's education, seeing it as pointless.
They also idolise being disadvantaged and martyr themselves upon its altar. Unless you're struggling, and work a blue collar job, you're incapable of having an valid opinion on anything.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Totally agree with this
Calm-Glove3141@reddit
Very true low class people can hold their own children back and can often tear down others. That didn’t stop the insufferable elitist views alit of middle and upper v Class people hold . Often times they will play lip service to “ the less fortunate “ but on the same hand cdd as lk them ignorant and surest they shouldn’t have a right to vote .
Aedamer@reddit
It's true that class in Britain carries more cultural expectations than simply material wealth, but I'm not sure this qualifies as a caste system.
As for the Norman/Dane stuff, this is nonsense. Titled aristocrat types probably have descent from Normans, but they're not a separate ethnicity.
SnooMarzipans2285@reddit
In my view, any explanation of the class ‘system’ falls apart on any close examination. There aren’t solid boundaries except maybe for the titled aristocracy or royals. Sure you can point to someone who’s solidly lower, middle or upper class, but there are no definable boundaries. There are also no places where one would be excluded because of belonging to a particular class as such - I could send my kids to Eton if I could afford it and they could establish themselves as upper middle class, could get themselves into politics for example and get a peerage and have proper posh children and the rise continues, meanwhile their cousins could be in and out of prison and live in poverty. So OPs opening statement is absolutely wrong. Also, if a traveller bought a home and got a middle management job, no one would bat an eyelid except to marvel at the tale of how they grew up in a completely different lifestyle. That being said, people tend to stick with what is familiar so that doesn’t happen that much 🤷🏻♂️
cookiesandginge@reddit
I used to work as an insurance underwriter. There was a document circulated which dealt with this issue (weirdly). I don’t remmeber much, but I remmeber it said that said class is a circular continuum. The upper classes start to have more in common with the underclass (note not working or middle class)
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
No, it isn't true
One of the key features of the British class system is how fluid it is, and how fluid it has always been.
In medieval times there are a significant number of examples of farmers being able to build up enough money to buy neighbouring strips of land and make themselves middle class through land ownership and employing others to do the work.
In the 18th and 19th century there are multiple examples of industrial workers going from working for a living to owning factories - also going from working to middle class
But there are also examples from then of factory owners expanding and being so successful that they get ennobled - going from middle class to upper class
In the late 20th and 21st century there are millions (upon millions) of examples of people growing up in working class households, going to university, and settling down into being middle class adults with middle class jobs.
The only things remotely similar to what you suggest is that since the aristocracy became irrelevant in the 20th century nothing happens with the upper class - and once you have been ennobled you are upper class for life - so that is actually unchanging no matter your circumstances
And there are a weirdly high number of people whose family move from being working class to being middle class - but they just refuse to think of themselves as anything other than working class. Other people will say - you're an accountant, obvious you're middle class but they'll say, no my grandad worked in the mines I'm definitely working class (for example)
This fluidity between class is sometimes credited with being the reason why the UK avoided any of the revolutions that swept through Europe and deposed most of the European monarchies
---Cloudberry---@reddit
Well class is also cultural. I am technically middle class now, but I didn’t grow up with this so don’t “feel” it.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
Yes, that would be an example of middle class people not being comfortable with calling themselves middle class
ProfPathCambridge@reddit
I think that is a simplification. It is not entirely internal, it is also external - not being accepted by others in that class as belonging in that class. There is something deeper, which reflects your origins, rather than simply being current income. Someone who went to a posh school and had violin and tennis lessons has had an entirely different life than someone who was moved through the foster care system their whole life, even if both people currently have the same income.
Savings_Giraffe_2843@reddit
This is actually a really good point. My grandfather was brought up in a large country house with a governess and everything (hunting, skiing, polo etc), and even though [events] meant that later on he had to take some fairly menial jobs to make ends meet, my father was brought up with a very distinctive outlook on life. He was able to send me to boarding school then LSE (alas no skiing or polo) and now I’m doing my best so that my children can go to a public school (not just random private) so they can build the ‘right’ social connections.
It’s a very specific mindset and a lot of people don’t really understand it (don’t blame them at all, more of an observation).
Routine-Cicada-4949@reddit
I was born in the late 60s in London & grew up very aware that I was working class.
Back then there seemed to be (in my way of thinking) THREE main classes with three sub classes.
Royal
Upper Class
Lower Upper Class
--------------------------------------
Upper Middle Class
Middle Class
Lower Middle Class
-------------------------------------
Upper Lower Class
Lower Class
Completely Fucked.
I'd say over the course of my childhood we went from Lower Class to Lower Middle Class, partly because in the 80's we were able to buy our council house, then we moved out of London to a town that boomed so my parents went from renting from the government to having equity (if that's the right word) in the space of a decade.
Me & my siblings all left school at 16. My sister went to secretarial school while my brother got a job as an apprentice mechanic.
Some of my friends from then are proud of being working class & do not want to change. Anyone who does is seen as "getting ideas above your station".
A lot of my mates parents were from either the Caribbean, Africa or the Indian subcontinent & I considered most of them to be a better class than my family although my Jamaican mates seemed to most closely resemble my Irish London clan.
I left the UK in 1997 so I'm guessing things are VERY different now.
Heisperus@reddit
This is something I've also witnessed and I find it so frustrating. It's fine to love what you do and be happy with where you are, but to gatekeep others who are trying to get an education or a better paid job is another thing. Sometimes I think the biggest propagators of the class system are the lower class, which seem to police themselves in many cases. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I know of cases where it's stopped a kid with endless promise from getting a good education.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
It's jealousy, and horrible.
MungoShoddy@reddit
It's nothing like as extreme as the class/race divide in the US. Isabel Wilkerson's Caste is worth reading on that.
Ranoni18@reddit
Yes it's true that the aristocracy derive more of their ancestry from the Normans. When William the Bastard invaded in 1066 and took over he placed his family, friends and supporters in all the positions of power and brutally cut down any and all rebellions. They built castles around the country to keep the Anglo-Celtic population in check. The descendants of these Norman families still consolidate a lot of the power and move in insular elite circles.
erinoco@reddit
I disagree. Most of those families, by their own geaneological standards, ceased to exist. A lot of the current nobility actually achieved wealth more recently, but laundered their origins whenever they could. Take the Percy family, Dukes of Northumberland: the original Percies actually died out in the seventeenth century, and the family is descended from merchants turned Yorkshire baronets called Smithson, who married a Seymour heiress who was the daughter of the last Percy. (The Smithson who became Duke of Northumberland also had an illegitimate son, who resented the British class structure; he became a wealthy man in his own right, and left his money to the more egalitarian US to found the Smithsonian.)
Heavy_Practice_6597@reddit
No, that isn't true.
VioletDaeva@reddit
The simple way I understood it works is like this.
If your family have titles and land, you are upper class. If you work for a living, you are working class. This should be fairly obvious. You are middle class if you own the businesses that the workers,work at.
There are however a few exceptions. Doctors, and Lawyers have always been middle class historically due to the respect for those professions, for example.
There are some comments on here talking about Norman families being richer. Mine is one, but we're obviously black sheep. We have some very distant relatives who are Lords though. I'm still very much working class.
BiscuitBoy77@reddit
No. It is possible to change class, up or down, and has been for centuries.
JaBe68@reddit
A bit out of date now, but Jilly Cooper wrote a good book about it - Class
Halo_Orbit@reddit
From a poor working class background, but did all the ‘right things’ - went to university (first in family), moved to London for the big money jobs, etc, etc.
But throughout my life from university to late 50’s, it’s been painfully clear that while you can go from blue collar to white collar professional, adopt middle class pursuits, outlooks and lifestyle, you’ll always be different from those born into the middle class. You’ll always feel an outside.
AllHailTheHypnoTurd@reddit
Its probably true, I don’t know, I’m working class and I don’t know any upper class posh types and I doubt I ever will
MixtureFragrant8789@reddit
It’s an interesting topic - top tier private schools and universities in both Scotland and England create graduates with an easily identifiable “received pronunciation” (Queens English) - which no doubt opens doors in employment / business and access to circles where commoners (like me) are excluded…… kind of like a class system. I’m from Scotland, and now live in Australia- where billionaires and low paid service workers all have the same accent and are similar culturally. In Australia, wealth is a measure of where you live.
thecityofgold88@reddit
No.
Effective-Ad-6460@reddit
Not even remotely
MixGroundbreaking622@reddit
There isn't really an upper class anymore. Many of those families relied on wealth generated during feudalism, and that wealth is now depleting. Most of them sold or gifted their family homes to the national trust post WW2.
YourLittleRuth@reddit
The class system is a lot subtler than you seem to think, and it is certainly more malleable.
My father’s parents were a bus conductor and a cleaner. He became an army officer, and thus moved into the middle class.
As for Kate Middleton being a ‘commoner’, yes, she was. Most people are. The House of Commons is full of commoners, even though many of them are upper class. They just aren’t nobility.
BlackberryNice1270@reddit
No. I mean, the aristocracy is pretty much a closed shop unless you marry into it. Even though a working class person could be rich and given a knight or dame title, they're still not aristocracy. Aristocracy has little to do with money (although most of them have it) and everything to do with name and family history. A working class person could make their grandchildren upper middle class though, make sure their children go to uni and do a 'traditional' degree like medicine or law, and if those children get good paying jobs and send their kids to private school they're working their way up quite quickly. I think the line between working class and lower middle class is getting quite blurred, though the middle class will ALWAYS be the middle class.
Agitated_One845@reddit
No. WTF?
Plot_3@reddit
There are plenty of social climbers who do manage to scramble up through the class system. They do have to work at it though and a few questions about their parents or where they went to school would soon find them out.
factualreality@reddit
Not really. Class is 'sticky' as it relates to much more than money so an individual is unlikely to personally change their class completely, but their children brought up in a different environment could easily be a different class, whereas a caste system is more longterm fixed.
People can also act outside their class which doesnt apply so much in a caste system . E.g. a working class person may become a rich lawyer for example, and would then have a middle class job and likely friends but might still identify with their working class background. If they send their kids to private school, their kids would be middle class.
Travellers are largely ostracised for their behaviour. It isn't an inherent characteristic like race or caste. If a traveller stopped travelling (I.e. moving round, living on other people's land without permission with no visible means of support beyond benefits) and got a job and a house, they would be no different from anyone else (albeit likely lower class in practice due to lack of educational opportunities previously received)
The upper class is aristocracy, which was largely derived from the Normans, so there is an element of truth re different ancestry. People can marry in though and their children would obviously have a different genetic background, so it's likely now more a higher percentage possibility in practice than any real distinction.
smudgethomas@reddit
Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion/ The musical version My Fair Lady remains pretty accurate.
If you want to change class you have to WORK at it. It's not about money. It's about manners, accent, behaviour, friendships, social groups, even ethics in some ways. Most people who fail to "pass" do so because of attitudes/thinking themselves superior in their new position. Whereas there's a real humility in old aristocracy, it's not about looking down, it's a form of service you were born into and are obligated by.
It can be done. It is, though, a huge commitment. Most people even if they have the money to enable it, don't want to. It does remove you from your family/old friends. Nonetheless, if you can go up or down to where you feel comfortable...it has much to recommend it. Expensive too but nothing worth having is free.
Which is very different to Caste, which is inescapable and is a more primitive system. It's worth noting the British in India were appalled by it during the days of the Empire.
4me2knowit@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
Is well worth a read
Hyperion2023@reddit
The caste system is utterly rigid. You never lose your surname, and other identifiers, so migration isn’t really possible, and despite all the anti-casteist laws in India, serious discrimination persists.
The British class system is ingrained but less formal. It is possible to move class, over multiple generations. What a lot of responses here suggest is that as an individual, you can’t hide your class origins and be considered suddenly fitting a different class because your circumstances have changed. But it’s clear from history (see programmes like ‘Who do you think you are’ ) that inter generational mobility is possible. What ‘signs’ of working class background (accent, consumer choices, schooling) can change over a generation or two and contrary to some of the posts here, the younger family members, brought up without direct experience of working class life, are fully accepted as being of their ‘acquired’ class.
Annual-Cookie1866@reddit
No it is not true.
Adventurous-Rub7636@reddit
Not really unofficial at all
Stunning-Bumblebee45@reddit
Yep
Maxxibonn@reddit
In an island country that was last invaded in 1066 and that has been quite stable throughout its history compared to its neighbours, it’s normal to have behaviours from the past still present.
spiderglide@reddit
This is the attitude among the aristocratic/"ruling" class.
The rest of us are humans.
Yes I do see what I just did there
Wraithei@reddit
Tbh the poles, Indians, Muslims etc all have a great sense of community that us Brits have mostly lost outside of smaller rural communities.
I kinda envy that, I live in a medium sized town and the closest thing we have to a community is people bitching on a Facebook page 😂😂
CuriousNowDead@reddit
I dunno how true that last bit is these days.
It’s not quite the same, but there’s some truth to it. As for belonging to your class for life - different social classes have different ways of looking at the world, regardless of how much money they have.
yermawsgotbawz@reddit
Last part is nonsense but there’s some truth to the unspoken rules of who is someone you aspire to be around and the unwanted.
Johnny_Vernacular@reddit
Yeah, kinda, although it's more complicated than that. But I'd take that last paragraph (the stuff about neolithic farming tribes) with a huge pinch of salt.
CafeFlaneur@reddit
True it is the unofficial caste system.
qualityvote2@reddit
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