It's a bit incredible that people can be shipped like products into literal war zones. Libya is in a civil war, there is nothing for them when they get there. Israel and Trump must be stopped and businesses supporting them.
It doesn't matter where they are being moved, its ethnic cleansing regardless. This isn't being done for the safety of Palestinians, its being done so that ghoulish capitalists can set up a sea side resort town where Gaza used to be.
It doesn't matter where they are being moved, its ethnic cleansing regardless
So the hundreds of thousands of Jewish people who were moved out of Arab nations over the last 70 years were all victims of Ethnic cleansing.... Yet I don't see you spending your entire life attacking them
1. I don't think ethnic cleansing of Jewish Arabs was correct either, #2. fucking Zionists were responsible in part for those ethnic cleansings as well, including terror bombings of Jewish communities by Zionists connected to Israel in both Egypt and Iraq. #3. Those Arab Jews are not currently being subjected to genocide.
Ah yes, it's always the Jews fault. Of course it is.
No, it is partly (love how you leave the "in part" out to misrepresent what I said, classic hasbara) the Zionists fault, conflating all Jews with Zionism is in itself anti-Semitic, so you have fun with that.
Because they have a state that actually protects them.
Nice of the British and Americans to provide that for them, while depriving it of Palestinians with the help of Israel itself.
It is much appreciated that you repeat the most obvious propagandized line to have come out of Israel. You make it as easy as possible for everyone involved.
Oh, I didn't understand what specifically you meant by "this". Hamas is responsible for their own attacks, not the genocidal campaign perpetrated by Israel.
However that's not an equivalent situation to the ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews. It is not victim blaming to hold Israel and Zionists partly responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews, Israel was providing monetary incentives and were trying to get those Jews to emigrate voluntarily, and in some places where that didn't work Israel supported Zionist terrorists who participated in attacks on Jewish communities to make them leave.
The victims here are those Jewish Arab communities, the perpetrators included Zionists (again in part, there were obviously also local/national Arab parties involved to varying degrees in each case). Jewish Arabs and Zionists are not equivalent, though I'm sure there was some overlap.
I don't think ethnic cleansing of Jewish Arabs was correct either
Please don't call us "Jewish Arabs", my father has never considered himself Arab despite being born in Morocco. We were Sephardic Jews, or Moroccan Jews if you must.
fucking Zionists were responsible in part for those ethnic cleansings as well, including terror bombings of Jewish communities by Zionists connected to Israel in both Egypt and Iraq
Even Ilan Pappe, who's the historian who uncovered the Iraq bombing, doesn't agree with you. Here were three bombings in Iraq, two by Muslims, one by mossad. The majority of Jews already signed on to leave Iraq before the third bombing.
But just like Palestinians, those Jews should have the right to return to their communities and get their possessions back if they had to leave them if they want to return.
We don't want to return, thank you. And we didn't have any possessions there because we weren't allowed to own property in most Arab countries.
No that was shitty as well. But at least those people were given the option to move to a state they could call their own. Palestinians can either stay in a giant open air ghetto, consisting of mostly rubble, or to a country which has a civil war going on.
You know what else is in living memory? Your effective mass relocation of European Jews to a more palatable place far away, but under your control, starting all this mess to begin with. And the horrible lines in the sand you drew there that messed things up even more just as you left.
This is hella ironic coming from a Brit, considering that you guys started this whole mess to begin with. The population of Palestine changed from less than a tenth Jews to over a third under your watch, which led to massive civil strife that continues to this day. Indeed the number of conflicts all around the world (most recent being the latest Indo-Pak flareup) that can be traced to your empire and its dumb lines in the sand is downright embarrassing. And yet loads of Brits continue thinking they made the world a better place lol.
And arabs nation dealing with the trump administration see them as humans as well? Those same nations that havenât acted after all this time? I donât think itâs just the west
Again, where are the hundreds of thousands of murdered children by arabs, a whole lot of whataboutism and deflection, but no real substance.
Painting arabs with one huge brush us what ignorant people do, levant arabs, gcc arabs, north africans are all different people with different cultures.
Letâs hit the brakes there âbroâ and focus on the actual genocide thatâs happening without resorting to racism borne of ignorance.
And what you're doing is what manipulators and people moralizing over points do, Sudan has had more deaths. Yemen, as well. One is a genocide, the other a civil war, but if preventing death of children is your stated goal. Sudan(RSF), and Yemen(Houthis), would be the best start in the world today. Maybe that crazy shit in CAR were apparently 10m are missing, or their census was just completely wrong
You hate the West, that's fine. Stop using children as a cudgel for why.
When did I mention otherwise? Other than virtue signaling i have no idea what point you're trying to make. The best part about Sudan neither group is ethnically Arab, just CuLtUrAlLy.
I've literally listed multiple ways they are different. In the post you responded to points out one way. You anti-west, reactionaries and/or contrarians are the worst. Fucking christ.
You need me to be that, works out better for you. Meanwhile, they are merely innocent videos, without any fucking agency anywhere. They are only reacting, yet im the racist. Bigotry of low expectations is real and on display.
Considering there's been multiple actual pan-Arabian unions. That's more than any other part of the world save Europe has managed. And ironically those unions were often the brainchild of the former leader of the country in question here - Libya. Who the west toppled from power, unsurprisingly, and which has been embroiled in a civil war ever since - also unsurprisingly.
Yeah let's just ignore multiple massive Arab empires as well as modern pan-Arabian unions (ironically often pushed by the former leader of the country in question here, until he was deposed by the west). Even if you just consider the modern unions, short-lived as they were it was still more than any other region of the world, save Europe, has managed.
The Middle East with a single prominent counterexample are the most bigoted hateful cultures on the planet which the most regressive, primitive and broken laws.
The entire reason there is a Palestine conflict is because you lot think that Jewish people should be exterminated.
Fella, I was just reading post-9/11 media again and it's really depressing that Bibi gets to live the wildest power fantasies anyone back then thought that Bush could never have, home or abroad
Also, it's true that Libya is currently going through civil war, but it's a very large country, and most of the civil war going on is in the western coastal regions. They are plenty of safe regions in Libya, especially in eastern regions.
The country is literally split in two. There's militias and warlords and open air slave markets. This seems about as ill informed as the Britain-Rwanda deal (which was very, very ill informed. )
That's the General Haftar side right? Ie. The side sponsored by the UAE, who also gave thermobaric weapons, MANPADS, and other weapons to the RSF in exchange for their gold, and facilitated the genocide of Masalit communities in the Darfur? Ah fuck.
One (LNA) is a pro-Arab-style military dictatorship who wants to impose authoritarian Gaddafi-like rule supported by France, UK, US , Russia, Saudi, Egypt, Iran, and UAE. They aren't secular but they are way less Islamic extreme than the other sides.
One (GNA) is an Islamist government with a strong connection to the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian islamist terrorist group known for bombing churches, night clubs and bars, they almost a statted a civil war in egypt and assained a secular egypitian leader for signing a peace treaty eith Israel, nothe Hamas is off shoot of Muslim broother, GNA is funded by Turkey, UN and Qatar
The last side are local militias that gain small control of some southern libya, where they practice slavery and human trafficking.
Good clarification, forgot some of those details. In summary, the situations fucked, and further intervention will only make it more fucked. And they want to relocate a million Gazans, there absolutely deplorable.
If the Gazans end up there, a significant portion will end up trying to flee to Europe in boats and die along the way. The thing is though, Gazans don't want to leave Gaza, they're being forced out. So this potentially new refugee crisis in Europe will have been directly caused by the US. I hope people realize this and blame the US admin instead of blaming Gazans.
EU refugee policy so far has been "let someone else figure this shit out." It's so close minded, and you just end up with humanitarian crises when the totalitarian state you negotiated with decides it doesn't want to play ball.
Palestinians, especially Gazans are pro-GNA since Palestinians are brainwashed by Al Jazeera's islamist propaganda, i don't think Haftar would want to accept 1 million people who hate him.
I don't wanna say WAGNER BELT, but this is kinda in line with how Trump has made choices in line with Wagner-influenced African military regimes... The Wagner Belt grows.
One (LNA) is a pro-Arab style military dictatorship who wants to impose authoritarian Gaddafi-like rule supported by France, UK, US , Russia, Saudi, Egypt, Iran, and UAE.
Look at this group, making friends out of enemies lol.
They didn't hate Gaddafi personally, just the fact his country had no debt, nationalized oil and had zero reliance on them while also funding pan-African projects like RASCOM (a satellite project that reduced Africa's reliance on European/American Intelsat systems which they charged $500 million a year cumulatively to Africans)
Gaddafi personally contributed $400 million to the project, meaning Africa would have (to this day) very cheap telecom costs. He also contributed heavily to national resistance movements like the IRA and was one of the founders of the African Union in general with the Sirte Declaration.
Fact is, they support Khalifa Haftar because he'll be like Gaddafi to his own people, but he'll buy weapons from Europe, he'll sell out their oil on the cheap to privatized interests and ensure that Libya never acts as a bastion of anti-neocolonialism in Africa or the third world ever again.
In Libya they subject migrants to slavery, rape, and other exploitation. The rival governments force labor and inhumane conditions on it's people. This is despicable, and of course Israel declined to comment. But that's not shocking considering the current genocide and ethnic cleansing...
They aren't seen as people, just product producing entities. So ship them to Libya, give $400 (which they'll never actually see), and have them make shoes or something.
Of course Israel wants them moved out so they can take Gaza without Palestinians living in Israel.
They didn't demolish every single building so they could keep living there. It's clear that they are preparing to take the land and finish once for all this dispute. They let the invasion happen to have a casus belli.
Gaza has been rendered uninhabitable, but while its population has been locked into a killing field, where it is being starved as a matter of policy by Israel, nonetheless the Palestinian people of Gaza, and the West Bank, survive as a people. Genocide is an evil dream, but it is hard to finish the job. And if the Palestinian people survive, Israel will never know peace â unless the people of Israel reject domination and accept restorative justice as the path to mutual peace.
What that means right now is to give up fantasies of slaughter or diaspora as if that were the choices for the Palestinians, and offer a path of hope informed by a vision of justice.
Rebuilding Gaza will require finding temporary accommodations for most of the current generation of survivors.
That relocation should be to places of refuge that the Palestinian people would freely choose. Temporary relocation must be accompanied by the right of return to a rebuilt Gaza.
But that return should not be limited to Gaza.
All people need to be in communities that are viable economically and politically. They need to have the power to guarantee those conditions for themselves. That is why they must be able to participate in the governance of their communities.
What we do now from the point of view of the just future we need for peace to be established?
After World War II Displaced Persons camps existed all over Europe to house refugees until they could be re-integrated into rebuilt societies as citizens. We need a new generation of such facilities.
And some of these centers should be in the land of Israel.
The struggle for justice starts here. A new generation of Israelis must come to understand that for most Palestinians, integration of two peoples in a common homeland is the only way to have a chance for survival for either of them.
So funny that Biden, building a dock, dropping aid, pressuring Netanyahu and sanctioning settlers, got the nickname genocidal, yet Trump didnât. I wonder what the reason is behind that.
Biden did nothing other than provide billions more for weapons.
The "aid pier" was PR and achieved nothing. It operated for 20 days, cost $230 million, injured dozens of people, and brought equivalent to a single day of aid deliveries before the war began.
As was recently reported, Biden's team did nothing to reign in Netanyahu.
I really wanna understand the people being in denial about Trump being actually condoning genocide unlike Biden ever did. They really wanna stay in their 2023 narrative or sometime.
Yeah so no one cares that Trump is enabling a genocide, and that is super weird, if you ask me, regarding him to be outspokenly genocidal, and overseeing the current starvation campagn that was unthinkable under Biden.
Why does no one seem to care that Trump is worse than Biden?
Why does no one seem to care that Trump is worse than Biden?
You keep asking the same question and so you'll get the same answer.
By the metric of how many people have died, many more people died when Biden was facilitating the genocide. Trump has been more appalling in his rhetoric and many innocent people continue to die.
You seem to be under the impression that Biden was better somehow - just because he pretended to care. He wasn't and is equally complicit in a genocide on his watch.
Do you also think that Mao Zedong was worse than Hitler, because he is supposed to be responsible for more deaths, when completely disregarding the amount of time in power?
Yeah the point is that you're doing that with Trump. He is condoning an active starvation campagn, and you're like: "It's because he inherented it from Biden, under whom more people got killed!" instead going like: "yeah that is indeed a new level of barbaric".
You're boiling everything down to numbers while ignoring that the current trajectory is even more extreme. There's a difference between negligent complicity and openly backing a starvation campaign while pushing for forced population transfers.
You're willing to completely ignore this escelation because more died under Biden.
Do you see that Trump has escelated with saying the Gaza strip should be cleaned, the people should be moved to Lybia and it's ok to starve them meanwhile? Yes or no?
Pressuring Netanyahu on aid would've meant not going as far as bypassing Congress to break US law and send more weapons after ignoring reports from US agencies saying Israel was blocking aid.
Call him genocide Trump if you want, but people don't generally inherit nicknames because their predecessor did nothing to prevent genocide.
Oh damn. If you put it like that. I read that Trump wants to deport a million Gazans, and is also actively starving the Gazan population. But like you put it: he inherented this genocide so it is not really his fault! /s
Biden didn't pressure Netanyahu what so ever and the dock was nothing more than a PR stunt. He got the nickade because he was president while the US supplied a genocide in progress that he was ideologically in favor of.
Next you will tell me that Biden was bad for Ukraine because he allowed so many deaths to happen and Trump hasn't let as many deaths happen. You don't think the time of when the conflict started might matter?
Yeah people don't even understand what's going on. They just rapid post there gut feelings.
Biden tried to build a dock to prevent Israel from doing this. Or at least to mitigate Israel's previous excuse of, "trucks can't get past the border "
The dock thing is crazy because it kind of shows how much Biden bought into the straight Israeli version of events. (Which was not neccecarly incorrect, but they were also largely responsible for the supply backlog themselves through other factors)
Oh, so if you need to vet all the goods and can't get them through the normal border because of backlog. We'll build a giant dock and send large amounts of pre vetted good directly, herp derp.
If the seas wernt so garbage it really could of helped. Of course people on this board complained that it was the beginning of a Israeli port.
Didnât they deliver a couple ships of aid, the Israelis used it to stage a raid, then they let the pier break apart? That really looks like Biden built them a pier for an op and the rest was cover.
No that isn't what happened. The seas were too rough and the pier couldn't really hold together. Plus its just impossible to deliver goods into a warzone. Which I'm sure Israel bombed some delivery at some point, but that was likely more of an Israel, if Hamas agent or their family OR there freinds is in your contacts list, special secret targeting metric.
tbf itâs very clear the Israelis misjudged Trump and didnât realise that the most easily bribed man in American politics was susceptible to being bribed by the Qatariâs
By the extremist, schizophrenic logic you have, that means we have to ignore everything Putin and Russia do, and find a convoluted rationalization for why Putin is secretly an enabler of the Israeli gov in Gaza even more so than Biden was
Again I appreciate you bringing up that goofy example though, it helps demonstrate my point
Israel was excited because they thought Trump meant unlimited baby murder instead of throttling the amount of baby murder. Turns out American foreign policy is consistent in the amount of baby murder they allow Israel to partake in.
The difference would be that Trump does not care what landfill he dumps the Palestinians in. If Trump and Israel could put them in ovens and/or gas them en masse, they would.
Yeah I disagree with you there bud, I canât stand Trump, but at least heâs upfront about his intentions. Biden and Harris, on the other hand, pretend to care while quietly enabling a genocide and letting Netanyahu do whatever he wants.
Sometimes having someone as blatantly cruel as Trump actually sparks more public outrage and resistance, because there's no mask, just raw visible support for Zionist violence.
Evidence that history would have been different does not exist and is silly to ask for. Like evidence the Battle of Waterloo wouldn't have happened if Napoleon would have died in 1793.
It is obvious the battle of Waterloo would not have happened. It's entirely credible. But how do you expect anyone can prove such a thing?
Good that you get my point, then. It is indeed silly to say the Democrats would have done any differently. Weird that you go on in the end to say they would, though, but that is your opinion that you are entitled to same as I am to mine.
The ethical barriers Trump broke in the US are very real, but on the Gazan genocide specifically? Yeah whatever they say or don't say is not as important as their actions, and both of them provide a faucet of aid and weapon sales, so.. The difference between the Gazans being gassed and Trump saying that is good, or them being gassed and the Democrats wagging a finger at it while materially providing the same support does not look that huge to me.
No, I didnât "get your point"... I pointed out that itâs absurd to treat historical counterfactuals like court cases. Saying âwe canât know for sure so letâs pretend everyoneâs the sameâ is just lazy thinking.
Youâre pretending material support is the only metric that matters. That lets you ignore context, rhetoric, diplomacy: all of which shape outcomes.
So no. It's not silly to say the Democrats wouldâve acted differently. It's simply comparing their track record, and noticing differences. Dismissing that because you cannot prove alternative history, so everyone is the same, does not make any sense.
Then we are at an impasse. I do agree that rhetoric and diplomacy are important, but in an event like this one? They are down the list of relevant metrics compared to material support. Material support directly causes more death and destruction. Material support is what enables this to go on.
It really is not silly to say the Democrats would have acted differently. As I said, they may very likely have wagged a finger (or stayed silent or expressed concern more often). However, I say that I do not think they would have acted differently in the areas that matter the most, and that assumption is also based on their track record and speeches. Ultimately, though, I really cannot disprove your opinion on how it would shape out either because that is not how it shaped out. All we got to go on is what we have seen till now. Have a good day.
That's not really what was reported. It was more that they didn't enforce any red lines in a "war" against Hamas. Despite saying that there were lines.
They absolutely tried to facilitate ceasefires.
Just what Hamas wanted in a Ceasefire (to still exist) and what Israel wanted (complete demilititarization) was basically incompatible.
Of and I guess way too many people in both government (but more relavently Israel) who were adamantly against a two state solution.
I think its disqualifying for any Israeli or Palestinian government to not support a 2 state solution. I don't care about the bad blood. It will lead to genocide. With Israel being the much stronger state Palestine is the likely loser here.
An overthrown Lebanon, strong Asad Syria and fully successful Houthi Yemen could have reversed this scenario. The theoretical is why so many Israelis are so unhinged about this.
1 death is 1 to many imo. The whole thing feels really hopeless. Especially since Palestinians basically have no agency in this geo political content between Iran and Israel.
Biden floated around the same plan, just secretly. At the end of the day biden holocausted Palestine and happily handed the baton to trump.
The math of shipping a million people out of the land they cherish into a slavery filled hell hole isnât very good, thereâs a near zero percent chance of this. Unfortunately the Palestinians just being mass murdered is more likely.
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How disgusting that we live in a world where the US and Israel openly carry out ethnic cleansing and the so-called "leader of the free world" fully facilitates one of the largest atrocities of the 21st century. Biden and Trump have overseen this genocide. Pure evil, the lot of them.
I don't support Hamas - don't put words in my mouth.
I do support the right of the Palestinians to exist. All I'm defending is their basic human rights. Hard for you to see Palestinians as human beings, I realise.
'Never again' wasn't just meant for Jewish people - or maybe in your view it was.
A state which openly invaded a sovereign state and targeted women and children, raped tortured and murdered people in their hundreds.
First of all, Israel has attacked four sovereign states recently - so get off your high horse.
Secondly, the verified deaths in Gaza are 70% women and children - killed by Israel - so get off your high horse.
Thirdly, Israel has raped, tortured and murdered in their thousands. Israel has killed 600 times the number of children - so get off your high horse.
Claiming "If you support Palestine, you support Hamas" is lazy, dishonest rhetoric. It's like saying anyone who supports Americans during war supports the KKK because both happen to live in the same country. Itâs intellectually bankrupt.
"Israel attacked four sovereign states"
"AFTER being attacked."
Thatâs just not true. Israel has bombed Syria dozens of times in the past year, many without any direct provocation. The UN and multiple international watchdogs have repeatedly condemned these as violations of international law. Lebanon, Iraq, and even parts of Iran have been hit as well, often under the pretense of âpreemptive defense,â which is code for âwe felt like it.â This is completely in line with their long history of being a belligerent state.
"Verified deaths"
"Verified by HAMAS"
Wrong again. Death tolls reported by Gaza's Health Ministry are reviewed and cross-checked by groups like the UN, WHO, and Amnesty International. Even the U.S. State Department has admitted their numbers are generally reliable. If you're going to toss out any casualty number as âHamas propaganda,â youâre basically saying no Palestinian death matters unless Israel personally confirms it, which is dehumanizing and absurd.
You're not making arguments here, you're just doing the typical zionist exercise of accusing everyone who disagrees with you a terrorist while refusing to engage with anything that conflicts with your worldview. Grow a spine.
"You should stop forcing me to commit war crimes unlike anything else we have seen this century, I had no choice but to drop the equivalent of a handful of nukes on an area the size of Philly"
Brother you are an embarrassment to the UK, this is beyond disgusting
Their fertility rate is not the point you daft racist - the point is the population is made up of many children.
How Orwellian to punish people in advance for future crimes but that's an insight into the insane Zionist mindset - like a bad Black Mirror episode.
You support the starvation and killing of children. Any normal person might pause, take a step back and consider whether this a moral choice. Not you though.
You're a hypocrite to think it's bad to persecute one group but ok to persecute another.
But this is at the core of the Zionist mindset.
If you think Israel is not the aggressor, you are erasing the last 80 years of history.
It doesn't surprise me that you are so uninformed about the 800 years of colonial occupation in Ireland. From a British Zionist, I'd expect such blinkered, selective ignorance.
Ever heard of Nakba or Plan Dalet? Honestly, you're spewing such nonsense, while trying to use history to your advantage that It's hard for me to even argue with you because there's no basis for a discussion. You don't know anything about the history of this conflict, you just pretend that you, offering fake narrative and banal solutions.
Remember when people were horrified over the mass exodus of refugees from Syria in 2016 that was all thanks to the dictator Assad? Now we get to see it happen with Palestine except instead of Assad itâs Trump and Netanyahu.
I get that everyone is real mad but....what's a better solution?
Leave em there? We'll do this again and again forever.
"Stop Israel"? They have a nuclear triad and are also at the crossroads of one of the most important regions on earth. Like it or not, if this was all going down in Kryzgstan, we wouldn't care.
Hell, there probably IS. What do you know about Turkmenistan? Me either.
2 state solution? Yeah sure.
Alternatively, find some place where they can live, maybe have something, and move them over there. If they're smart, they'll just fade into the local population. More than likely they'll start their own quasi Zionist movement, but it'll be a couple hundred years before they can possibly develop them numbers or money to really do anything about it, and then its somebody else's problem
Call it whatever you want. The war stops, the dying stops. It stops the way these things always do. When one side is gone. Uniquely, we might be able to do "gone" and not "dead"
If something has been happening for the past 60 years unchecked, and theres no signs of any checks coming, arguing for checks seems pretty silly.
What's a realistic solution that minimizes death?
There are about 2 good sized cities worth of Palestinians. Thats not a particularly difficult logistical problem. Just take em and put em somewhere else. With their own people
To answer your question, yes sanctions on Israel would work as it did on south africa, since they are dependant on the western economy unlike those you mentioned.
To large extent sanctioned worked on iran/syria/hezbollah too.
Iran has expanded its power significantly since the start of sanctions, admittedly aided by our fumbling in Iraq.
Israel is more likely to have learned from what happened to South Africa than anything else.
And even if so...when are these sanctions going to happen? The only sanctions we've seen so far are US states passing laws to forbid divesting from Israel.
"If everything changes radically we can try something that might eventually work" is not a solution
Yeah, zionists like them just don't understand that. They don't even see that they can be wrong by committing genocide. Such a delulu "God's chosen" people they are, ngl
The US demanding they pull out would do it, enough protests at home will do it, especially since he's going to need all his reservists for this and his greater israel fantasies in syria and trying to get the religious right's exemption from IDF service remoced is not making him popular wiht his base.
Also should Hamas or the Us get the last of the hostages out the Israeli general view is going to go very sour very fast on occupying Gaza since his bipartisan support is absed on fuckign Hamas, not resettling Gaza.
I highly doubt the US pressuring Israel with stern words, or even a cut in aid, would cause Israel to actually retreat. The end game is basically right around the corner in the Israeli government's eyes and at this point any excuse they can make up will be used to continue the war. They want Palestine plain and simple.
Even with protests i can't see this being something that causes the government to pull a 180°. Netanyahu's government would sooner collapse than back down without him getting whatever it is he wants.
Without US involvement there's no end game that doesn't involve Israel having to actually wipe out two million palestinians to take Gaza.
The end game was to destroy Hamas, maybe put back the settlements they removed under the first Hamas peace deal but mass deportations is a Trump offer Netanyahu could only have dreamed off and never, ever pull off without direct and total US support.
How many Palestinians in Gaza would voluntarily leave to live in Libya is an open question. One idea administration officials have discussed is to provide Palestinians with financial incentives such as free housing and even a stipend, the former U.S. official said.
This is a really stupid discussion. If two groups gang up on a third one and ethnically cleanse it then split their land among themselves, the resulting population will be more diverse but ethnic cleansing has still taken place.
It's only ethnic cleansing if all three were already there as diversity was reduced.
Otherwise, no. This is a very intentional legal meaning. What do you are describing might violate other international laws, but it does not conform with the EU definition of ethnic cleansing.
If the Nazis conquered an area with no German population, took all the Jews and sent them to Madagascar (which was one of their initial plans before they did the Holocaust), that would be ethnic cleansing and it would be genocide. Not as extreme as the mass killing of innocents yes, but still genocide. You're trying to rules lawyer something that isn't even considered a separate crime under international law. It's all under the spectrum of genocide.
Jews lived in the west bank before Israel/Palestine were created, the creation of those states and subsequent population transfers and ethnic cleansing has made them less diverse.
However we're taling about Gaza which is entirely palestinian being ethnic cleansed and replaced by Israelis.
Jews lived in the west bank before Israel/Palestine were created, the creation of those states and subsequent population transfers and ethnic cleansing has made them less diverse.
Correct - and then settlements made them more diverse again.
However we're taling about Gaza which is entirely palestinian being ethnic cleansed and replaced by Israelis.
Again, unless it gets fully ethnically cleansed, it would end up more diverse if Israelis settled there. (e.g. 2004 Gaza is more diverse than now).
Diminishing returns and more cost to move more. I highly doubt this will happen and even if it does, I highly doubt they'll get another million to emigrate.
They've been bombing the fuck out of them (they barely specifically did it from north to south in order to draw the population to Egypt's borders) and now they're going to ask them to "voluntarily" leave, as if there wasn't a gun pointed at them. There's nothing voluntary about that, it is indeed using force and intimidation to force them to leave.
And yes, the goal is to annex Gaza, make it Israeli. Both Israeli politicians and Trump have already been talking about it, discussing how it's prime real estate. They want to get rid of the population so they can later send settlers in.
This makes the Rwanda Plan look good. Even if nothing comes of it I can't believe that this has even been given more than one seconds consideration before thinking what an evil thing to do.
If they move to Libya, they will move to Europe as that's the main jump off point for the boats.
It's a real shame but the moment they leave gaza I expect a massive humanitarian movement...they aren't going to stay in Libya....why would they? Haa no one seen the ongoing fighting there....likewise...I'd be amazed if the Libyans accept them tbh. Libya has a small population...taking 1m refugees in...
Another 'its easy' idea from trump who thinks everything is a business deal...
Err, which leadership? Libya doesn't have one leadership. It doesn't even have one government. All this would do, if such a hare-brained idea could even be carried out, is exacerbate even more war somewhere else.
Also ironically, this hare-brained idea would've been easier to carry out had the west not toppled Gaddafi in the first place. That was another such Big Brain move, and now they want to compound it.
Civil War? I don't know, i have his vague memory about some foreign powers that helped to destabilize that country, something about protecting civilians, but they mess the whole thing, anyway my memory is foggy maybe I dream the foreign intervention part...
Details are murky and no final agreement has been reached, but the plan is under serious enough consideration that the administration has discussed it with Libyan leadership.
Funny, I remember being assured by liberals that it would never come to this.
Well that is one option, debatable if it's viable, but I feel like the gaza conflict is a deadlock with two parts that see each other as mortal enemies / or mortal threats.
The Trump administration is working on a plan to permanently relocate up to 1 million Palestinians from the Gaza Strip to Libya, five people with knowledge of the effort told NBC News.
The plan is under serious enough consideration that the administration has discussed it with Libyaâs leadership, two people with direct knowledge of the plans and a former U.S. official said.
In exchange for the resettling of Palestinians, the administration would potentially release to Libya billions of dollars of funds that the U.S. froze more than a decade ago, those three people said.
No final agreement has been reached, and Israel has been kept informed of the administrationâs discussions, the same three sources said.
The State Department and the National Security Council did not respond to multiple requests for comment before this article was published. After publication, a spokesperson told NBC News, âthese reports are untrue.â
âThe situation on the ground is untenable for such a plan. Such a plan was not discussed and makes no sense,â the spokesperson said.
Basem Naim, a senior Hamas official, said that Hamas, the U.S.-designated terrorist group that has run Gaza, was not aware of any discussions about moving Palestinians to Libya.
âPalestinians are very rooted in their homeland, very strongly committed to the homeland and they are ready to fight up to the end and to sacrifice anything to defend their land, their homeland, their families, and the future of their children,â Naim said in response to questions from NBC News. â[Palestinians] are exclusively the only party who have the right to decide for the Palestinians, including Gaza and Gazans, what to do and what not to do.â
Representatives of the Israeli government declined to comment.
Libya has been plagued by instability and warring political factions throughout the nearly 14 years since a civil war broke out in the country and its longtime dictator, Moammar Gadhafi, was toppled. Libya is struggling to care for its current population as two rival governments, one in the west led by Abdul Hamid Dbeibah and one in the east led by Khalifa Haftar, are actively and violently fighting for control. The State Department currently advises Americans not to travel to Libya âdue to crime, terrorism, unexploded landmines, civil unrest, kidnapping, and armed conflict.â
Dbeibahâs government could not be reached for comment. Haftarâs Libyan National Army did not respond to a request for comment.
How many Palestinians in Gaza would voluntarily leave to live in Libya is an open question. One idea administration officials have discussed is to provide Palestinians with financial incentives such as free housing and even a stipend, the former U.S. official said.
The details of when or how any plan to relocate Palestinians to Libya could be implemented are murky, and an effort to resettle up to 1 million people there would likely face significant obstacles.
Such an effort would likely be extremely expensive, and itâs not clear how the Trump administration would seek to pay for it. In the past, the administration has said Arab nations would help with rebuilding Gaza after the war there ends, but they have been critical of Trumpâs idea of permanently relocating Palestinians.
In recent weeks, the Trump administration has also looked at Libya as a place where it could send some immigrants it wants to deport from the U.S.However, plans to send one group of immigrants to Libya were stalled by a federal judge this month.
Moving up to 1 million Palestinians to Libya could put far more of a strain on the fragile country.
The CIAâs most recent publicly available estimate of Libyaâs current population is about 7.36 million. In terms of population, Libya absorbing 1 million more people would be equivalent to the U.S. taking in about 46 million.
Precisely where Palestinians would be resettled in Libya has not been determined, according to the former U.S. official. Administration officials are looking at options for housing them and every potential method for transporting them from Gaza to Libya â by air, land and sea âis being considered, according to one of the people with direct knowledge of the effort.
Any of those methods would likely prove cumbersome and time-consuming, as well as costly.
It would take around 1,173 flights on the worldâs largest passenger airplane, the Airbus A380, at its maximum passenger capacity to transport 1 million people, for instance. With no airport in Gaza, moving anyone from there on flights would first require transporting them to an airport in the region. If Israel does not want to allow Palestinians to come through its territory, the closest airport would be in Cairo, about 200 miles away.
Transportation by land from Gaza through Egypt to Benghazi, Libyaâs second-largest city, which is farther east than the capital, Tripoli, would require driving about 1,300 miles. Automobiles typically hold fewer passengers than other modes of transportation. About 55 people can fit in an intercity passenger bus.
Up to 2,000 people can fit on the top-end versions of some of the ferries the U.S. used to transport civilians along the Mediterranean Sea to escape Libyaâs civil war in 2011. If those vessels were to be used â and assuming that they didnât need to refuel and weather conditions were good â it would take hundreds of trips lasting more than a day each way for up to 1 million people to travel from Gaza to Benghazi.
The plan under discussion is part of President Donald Trumpâs vision for a postwar Gaza, which he said in February the U.S. would seek to âownâ and rebuild as what he called âthe Riviera of the Middle East,â two current U.S. officials, the former U.S. official and the two people with direct knowledge of the effort said.
âWeâre going to take over that piece, develop it and create thousands and thousands of jobs, and it will be something the entire Middle East can be proud of,â Trump said at the time.
To achieve his goal for the reconstruction of Gaza, Trump has said Palestinians there would have to be permanently resettled elsewhere.
âYou canât live in Gaza right now, and I think we need another location. I think it should be a location thatâs going to make people happy,â Trump said in February during a White House meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Trump outlined a goal of finding âa beautiful area to resettle people permanently in nice homes, and where they can be happy and not be shot, not be killed, not be knifed to death like whatâs happening in Gaza.â
âI donât think people should be going back to Gaza,â he said.
âWeâll see what the Arab world says but, you know, thatâd be problematic at many, many levels,â Trump ally Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said at the time.
The administrationâs work on a Libya plan comes as Trumpâs relationship with Netanyahu has become strained, in part because of Israelâs decision to launch a new military offensive in Gaza.
The Trump administration has considered multiple locations for resettling Palestinians living in Gaza, according to a senior administration official, a former U.S. official familiar with the discussions and one of the people with direct knowledge of the effort.
Syria, with its new leadership following the ouster of Bashar al Assad in December, also is under discussion as a possible location for resettling Palestinians currently in Gaza, according to one of the people with direct knowledge of the effort and a former U.S. official familiar with the discussions.
The Trump administration has taken steps toward restoring diplomatic relations with Syria. Trump announced on Tuesday that the U.S. would lift sanctions on Syria and met briefly with the countryâs new leader, Ahmad al-Sharaa, on Wednesday.
We've found 15 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
Anadolu Ajansı (Right): "Libya denies reports claiming willingness to accept Palestinian refugees from Gaza"
Jerusalem Post (Center): "US developing plan to move 1 million Palestinians to Libya"
Haaretz (Leans Left): "NBC: Trump administration working on plan to relocate one million Palestinians to Libya"
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 40% are left-leaning, 40% are right-leaning, and 20% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 15+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
Iâm a bot. Read here to learn how it works or message us with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you.
EndofGods@reddit
It's a bit incredible that people can be shipped like products into literal war zones. Libya is in a civil war, there is nothing for them when they get there. Israel and Trump must be stopped and businesses supporting them.
beefprime@reddit
It doesn't matter where they are being moved, its ethnic cleansing regardless. This isn't being done for the safety of Palestinians, its being done so that ghoulish capitalists can set up a sea side resort town where Gaza used to be.
Entfly@reddit
So the hundreds of thousands of Jewish people who were moved out of Arab nations over the last 70 years were all victims of Ethnic cleansing.... Yet I don't see you spending your entire life attacking them
I wonder why đ€
beefprime@reddit
1. I don't think ethnic cleansing of Jewish Arabs was correct either, #2. fucking Zionists were responsible in part for those ethnic cleansings as well, including terror bombings of Jewish communities by Zionists connected to Israel in both Egypt and Iraq. #3. Those Arab Jews are not currently being subjected to genocide.
Entfly@reddit
Sure you don't
Ah yes, it's always the Jews fault. Of course it is.
Because they have a state that actually protects them.
beefprime@reddit
lol, very convincing, amazing argumentation.
No, it is partly (love how you leave the "in part" out to misrepresent what I said, classic hasbara) the Zionists fault, conflating all Jews with Zionism is in itself anti-Semitic, so you have fun with that.
Nice of the British and Americans to provide that for them, while depriving it of Palestinians with the help of Israel itself.
Entfly@reddit
I didn't do that.
Anti Zionism is just a dogwhistle for Nazis as per usual though.
Montana_Gamer@reddit
It is much appreciated that you repeat the most obvious propagandized line to have come out of Israel. You make it as easy as possible for everyone involved.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Try something else mate, this isnât worldnews.
Ala117@reddit
By bombing them while being hostages?
Love_JWZ@reddit
Holding Zionists responsible for that, is like holding Hamas responsible for this.
beefprime@reddit
Yes. Would you be willing to not be a psychopath?
Love_JWZ@reddit
No because that is textbook victim blaming.
Hamas is responsible for oct 7.
Israel is responsible for this starvation campaign.
To turn that the other way around, is taking blame way from the perpetrator and putting it with the victim.
rasdo357@reddit
What starvation campaign?
Love_JWZ@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_blockade_of_aid_delivery_to_the_Gaza_Strip
beefprime@reddit
Oh, I didn't understand what specifically you meant by "this". Hamas is responsible for their own attacks, not the genocidal campaign perpetrated by Israel.
However that's not an equivalent situation to the ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews. It is not victim blaming to hold Israel and Zionists partly responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Arab Jews, Israel was providing monetary incentives and were trying to get those Jews to emigrate voluntarily, and in some places where that didn't work Israel supported Zionist terrorists who participated in attacks on Jewish communities to make them leave.
The victims here are those Jewish Arab communities, the perpetrators included Zionists (again in part, there were obviously also local/national Arab parties involved to varying degrees in each case). Jewish Arabs and Zionists are not equivalent, though I'm sure there was some overlap.
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Don't ever call us "Jewish Arabs"!
Lonely-Internet-7565@reddit
It would still be different as Zionists murdered Jews whereas Hamas also murdered Jews
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Please don't call us "Jewish Arabs", my father has never considered himself Arab despite being born in Morocco. We were Sephardic Jews, or Moroccan Jews if you must.
Even Ilan Pappe, who's the historian who uncovered the Iraq bombing, doesn't agree with you. Here were three bombings in Iraq, two by Muslims, one by mossad. The majority of Jews already signed on to leave Iraq before the third bombing.
We don't want to return, thank you. And we didn't have any possessions there because we weren't allowed to own property in most Arab countries.
azure_beauty@reddit
It happened. It was bad.
Does not mean we shouldn't prevent future crimes.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
No that was shitty as well. But at least those people were given the option to move to a state they could call their own. Palestinians can either stay in a giant open air ghetto, consisting of mostly rubble, or to a country which has a civil war going on.
Entfly@reddit
đ That was shitty but let me just justify it real quick
Palestinians are the aggressors in a war. They are not civilians of Israel. They are a foreign enemy military force.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
So how long do people have to live somewhere to not be âforeignâ anymore?
Entfly@reddit
They're a foreign military force because they aren't Israeli and invaded another country.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
They lived there long before the state of Israel even existed. Gaza also isnât part of Israel.
Entfly@reddit
No shit, that's why it's a FOREIGN MILITARY POWER and not a DOMESTIC MILITARY POWER
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
So them living there before Israel existed is irrelevant?
ijzerwater@reddit
for the same reason I don't attack slave makers and slave owners of the 17th century.
Entfly@reddit
The 17th century was 400 years ago.
The Arab genocide of the Jewish people is still in living memory.
How many genocides do the Jewish people need to suffer before you'll care about them instead of supporting their exterminators.
BendicantMias@reddit
You know what else is in living memory? Your effective mass relocation of European Jews to a more palatable place far away, but under your control, starting all this mess to begin with. And the horrible lines in the sand you drew there that messed things up even more just as you left.
BendicantMias@reddit
This is hella ironic coming from a Brit, considering that you guys started this whole mess to begin with. The population of Palestine changed from less than a tenth Jews to over a third under your watch, which led to massive civil strife that continues to this day. Indeed the number of conflicts all around the world (most recent being the latest Indo-Pak flareup) that can be traced to your empire and its dumb lines in the sand is downright embarrassing. And yet loads of Brits continue thinking they made the world a better place lol.
Monterenbas@reddit
Cause happened 70 years ago, while whatâs currently happening to the Palestinian is being livestream?
Entfly@reddit
So your argument is that Israel should wipe every last Palestinian off the map in Gaza.
Because then it's done, and it's not important any more?
Monterenbas@reddit
Yes, that is totally my argument, youâre a very smart person.
Entfly@reddit
That's your exact argument.
You said that the Arab genocides don't matter because they've been completed to the last man woman and child.
Catholic-Kevin@reddit
Thank you for making the most retarded statement of the week
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
The West doesn't see Arabs as human beings, so i am not surprised to see this happening.
Gyuttin@reddit
And arabs nation dealing with the trump administration see them as humans as well? Those same nations that havenât acted after all this time? I donât think itâs just the west
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
How would those arab nations need to act according to you? Should they just help Israel with itâs ethnic cleansing?
Windreon@reddit
Plenty of Arab nations have or are currently engaging in ethnic cleansing themselves (Saudis, UAE etc) . No idea why people expect them to act.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
I mean, thatâs simply not true.
Always amazing seeing people who have never set foot in any of these countries acting like they know whatâs up.
What arab country is murdering hundreds of thousands of children almost every day?
Saudis and the UAE are sponsoring their own wars but nobody is doing what Israelâs been doing for decades now.
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
What? Lol. Syria, UAE, KSA, Iran, Lebanon, Qatar all have tried, some have succeeded. Actively right now, RSF and Houthis come immediately to mind.
destroyerx12772@reddit
Iran isn't Arab
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
I know?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Again, where are the hundreds of thousands of murdered children by arabs, a whole lot of whataboutism and deflection, but no real substance.
Painting arabs with one huge brush us what ignorant people do, levant arabs, gcc arabs, north africans are all different people with different cultures.
Letâs hit the brakes there âbroâ and focus on the actual genocide thatâs happening without resorting to racism borne of ignorance.
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
And what you're doing is what manipulators and people moralizing over points do, Sudan has had more deaths. Yemen, as well. One is a genocide, the other a civil war, but if preventing death of children is your stated goal. Sudan(RSF), and Yemen(Houthis), would be the best start in the world today. Maybe that crazy shit in CAR were apparently 10m are missing, or their census was just completely wrong
You hate the West, that's fine. Stop using children as a cudgel for why.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Nope, just trying to point out the ignorance and racism that surrounds arabs in general.
Nice try though đđ»
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
When did I mention otherwise? Other than virtue signaling i have no idea what point you're trying to make. The best part about Sudan neither group is ethnically Arab, just CuLtUrAlLy.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Virtue signalling? For saying generalizing arabs into one big monolith and making baseless accusations is not a valid thing to do?
Get off your high horse man, the orientalism is leaking from every part of you.
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
I've literally listed multiple ways they are different. In the post you responded to points out one way. You anti-west, reactionaries and/or contrarians are the worst. Fucking christ.
You need me to be that, works out better for you. Meanwhile, they are merely innocent videos, without any fucking agency anywhere. They are only reacting, yet im the racist. Bigotry of low expectations is real and on display.
Windreon@reddit
Exactly what I mean, Arabs don't see it as a big deal when they do it , heck they do it with support from the US too.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Again, not even relevant to whatâs happening in gaza. No way to whatabout any of this.
Israel shouldnât bomb palestinian kids, if we were on a thread about Saudi bombing kids, weâs say the same.
gs87@reddit
they don't even care about their citizens lol
Finetales@reddit
Yeah Trump doesn't even see Americans as human beings, unless they are rich white men like him.
Reagalan@reddit
No single American has killed more Americans thank Donald Trump.
One million from COVID alone.
flaamed@reddit
If Covid counts, Biden âkilledâ more
National-Heron-7162@reddit
Arabs don't see Arabs as human beings.
slothcat@reddit
Are you an Arab?
Zipz@reddit
Is he wrong ?
The only thing they get along about is their hate for Israel.
BendicantMias@reddit
Considering there's been multiple actual pan-Arabian unions. That's more than any other part of the world save Europe has managed. And ironically those unions were often the brainchild of the former leader of the country in question here - Libya. Who the west toppled from power, unsurprisingly, and which has been embroiled in a civil war ever since - also unsurprisingly.
Zipz@reddit
Wow theyâve had an alliance before ? No way?
I guess if you want to ignore the last few hundred years you would have a point
ShikaStyleR@reddit
Assad was also a pan arabist, and he killed half a million Arabs
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Oh look, itâs the racist little ragebaiter making racist comments again.
slothcat@reddit
Yeah heâs wrong.
BendicantMias@reddit
Yeah let's just ignore multiple massive Arab empires as well as modern pan-Arabian unions (ironically often pushed by the former leader of the country in question here, until he was deposed by the west). Even if you just consider the modern unions, short-lived as they were it was still more than any other region of the world, save Europe, has managed.
russiankek@reddit
Yeah, unlike the enlightened Arabs, who definitely treat each other with respect and dignity, unlike the decadent corrupt West.
vuddehh@reddit
So now its fine to generalize?
UrDadMyDaddy@reddit
As opposed to the Arab world ofcourse which is known for viewing non Arabs and non muslims as human beings. /s.
Monterenbas@reddit
Do Arabs see Arabs as human being? What are they doing any differently from the West?
Entfly@reddit
That's fucking rich.
The Middle East with a single prominent counterexample are the most bigoted hateful cultures on the planet which the most regressive, primitive and broken laws.
The entire reason there is a Palestine conflict is because you lot think that Jewish people should be exterminated.
notarobat@reddit
Yes the do. The media might try make you think otherwise but they do
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
The irony of Trump gaining supporteers because it's the democrats who are enabling genocide is palpable.
Bibi's wildest dreams couldn't have included outright American support for hat has to be the literal dictionary definition of ethnic cleansing.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
Fella, I was just reading post-9/11 media again and it's really depressing that Bibi gets to live the wildest power fantasies anyone back then thought that Bush could never have, home or abroad
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
Putin and Bibi are lookingat what Trump has given them thinking every Christmas and Hannukah has come at once.
Bibi's literally getting to do stuff even Hamas has never accused them of doing because no one thought even Netanyahu would try.
jj2jj2aa@reddit
Nope its refugees from hamas being evacuated, such a great thing!
TacoHunter206@reddit
Pretty sure that ended in like 2020âŠ
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Also, it's true that Libya is currently going through civil war, but it's a very large country, and most of the civil war going on is in the western coastal regions. They are plenty of safe regions in Libya, especially in eastern regions.
PerspectiveNormal378@reddit
The country is literally split in two. There's militias and warlords and open air slave markets. This seems about as ill informed as the Britain-Rwanda deal (which was very, very ill informed. )
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Actually, it's split into 3 sides, but so far, one side is winning.
PerspectiveNormal378@reddit
That's the General Haftar side right? Ie. The side sponsored by the UAE, who also gave thermobaric weapons, MANPADS, and other weapons to the RSF in exchange for their gold, and facilitated the genocide of Masalit communities in the Darfur? Ah fuck.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
All 3 sides are bad
One (LNA) is a pro-Arab-style military dictatorship who wants to impose authoritarian Gaddafi-like rule supported by France, UK, US , Russia, Saudi, Egypt, Iran, and UAE. They aren't secular but they are way less Islamic extreme than the other sides.
One (GNA) is an Islamist government with a strong connection to the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian islamist terrorist group known for bombing churches, night clubs and bars, they almost a statted a civil war in egypt and assained a secular egypitian leader for signing a peace treaty eith Israel, nothe Hamas is off shoot of Muslim broother, GNA is funded by Turkey, UN and Qatar
The last side are local militias that gain small control of some southern libya, where they practice slavery and human trafficking.
PerspectiveNormal378@reddit
Good clarification, forgot some of those details. In summary, the situations fucked, and further intervention will only make it more fucked. And they want to relocate a million Gazans, there absolutely deplorable.
Kriztauf@reddit
If the Gazans end up there, a significant portion will end up trying to flee to Europe in boats and die along the way. The thing is though, Gazans don't want to leave Gaza, they're being forced out. So this potentially new refugee crisis in Europe will have been directly caused by the US. I hope people realize this and blame the US admin instead of blaming Gazans.
PerspectiveNormal378@reddit
EU refugee policy so far has been "let someone else figure this shit out." It's so close minded, and you just end up with humanitarian crises when the totalitarian state you negotiated with decides it doesn't want to play ball.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
May well be relocated into forced labor camps that makes money for his shell companies
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Palestinians, especially Gazans are pro-GNA since Palestinians are brainwashed by Al Jazeera's islamist propaganda, i don't think Haftar would want to accept 1 million people who hate him.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
I don't wanna say WAGNER BELT, but this is kinda in line with how Trump has made choices in line with Wagner-influenced African military regimes... The Wagner Belt grows.
krombough@reddit
Look at this group, making friends out of enemies lol.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
I fidn it more ironic that France, UK, and US help overthrew Gaddafi, yet they support Gaddafi 2.0
Logements@reddit
They didn't hate Gaddafi personally, just the fact his country had no debt, nationalized oil and had zero reliance on them while also funding pan-African projects like RASCOM (a satellite project that reduced Africa's reliance on European/American Intelsat systems which they charged $500 million a year cumulatively to Africans)
Gaddafi personally contributed $400 million to the project, meaning Africa would have (to this day) very cheap telecom costs. He also contributed heavily to national resistance movements like the IRA and was one of the founders of the African Union in general with the Sirte Declaration.
Fact is, they support Khalifa Haftar because he'll be like Gaddafi to his own people, but he'll buy weapons from Europe, he'll sell out their oil on the cheap to privatized interests and ensure that Libya never acts as a bastion of anti-neocolonialism in Africa or the third world ever again.
waiver@reddit
More like split in three, some tribes are doing their own thing in the South
Freud-Network@reddit
Nobody is going to stop them. Europe is complicit.
Ali_Cat222@reddit
In Libya they subject migrants to slavery, rape, and other exploitation. The rival governments force labor and inhumane conditions on it's people. This is despicable, and of course Israel declined to comment. But that's not shocking considering the current genocide and ethnic cleansing...
Ok_Ask_2624@reddit
They aren't seen as people, just product producing entities. So ship them to Libya, give $400 (which they'll never actually see), and have them make shoes or something.
Designer_Holiday3284@reddit
Of course Israel wants them moved out so they can take Gaza without Palestinians living in Israel.
They didn't demolish every single building so they could keep living there. It's clear that they are preparing to take the land and finish once for all this dispute. They let the invasion happen to have a casus belli.
coolbern@reddit
Gaza has been rendered uninhabitable, but while its population has been locked into a killing field, where it is being starved as a matter of policy by Israel, nonetheless the Palestinian people of Gaza, and the West Bank, survive as a people. Genocide is an evil dream, but it is hard to finish the job. And if the Palestinian people survive, Israel will never know peace â unless the people of Israel reject domination and accept restorative justice as the path to mutual peace.
What that means right now is to give up fantasies of slaughter or diaspora as if that were the choices for the Palestinians, and offer a path of hope informed by a vision of justice.
Rebuilding Gaza will require finding temporary accommodations for most of the current generation of survivors.
That relocation should be to places of refuge that the Palestinian people would freely choose. Temporary relocation must be accompanied by the right of return to a rebuilt Gaza.
But that return should not be limited to Gaza.
All people need to be in communities that are viable economically and politically. They need to have the power to guarantee those conditions for themselves. That is why they must be able to participate in the governance of their communities.
What we do now from the point of view of the just future we need for peace to be established?
After World War II Displaced Persons camps existed all over Europe to house refugees until they could be re-integrated into rebuilt societies as citizens. We need a new generation of such facilities.
And some of these centers should be in the land of Israel.
The struggle for justice starts here. A new generation of Israelis must come to understand that for most Palestinians, integration of two peoples in a common homeland is the only way to have a chance for survival for either of them.
horiami@reddit
Israel won't change in the near future, they know that they've done too much to these people and there's no way to make up for it
they see it like the paradox of tolerance
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
Say what you want about genocidal Joe and Harris. They were genocidal maniacs but nowhere bad as Trump. Trump wants to remove Palestine from history.
Love_JWZ@reddit
So funny that Biden, building a dock, dropping aid, pressuring Netanyahu and sanctioning settlers, got the nickname genocidal, yet Trump didnât. I wonder what the reason is behind that.
redelastic@reddit
Biden did nothing other than provide billions more for weapons.
The "aid pier" was PR and achieved nothing. It operated for 20 days, cost $230 million, injured dozens of people, and brought equivalent to a single day of aid deliveries before the war began.
As was recently reported, Biden's team did nothing to reign in Netanyahu.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Yeah, even if... Still less genocidall than actively starving and deporting people. Yet why do you think Trump doesn't get called genocidal?
redelastic@reddit
I think Trump is a dangerous lunatic. Perhaps because more genocide happened under Biden so far?
If Trump continues with any plan like this, he will be criticised too.
Trump does ten crazy things every week, so there's less focus on his Gaza stance.
Love_JWZ@reddit
I really wanna understand the people being in denial about Trump being actually condoning genocide unlike Biden ever did. They really wanna stay in their 2023 narrative or sometime.
redelastic@reddit
The people who voted for Trump don't care that he is enabling a genocide.
Some people who voted for Biden do care that he enabled a genocide.
This probably also accounts for people calling Biden out, plus he oversaw a genocide for an entire year.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Yeah so no one cares that Trump is enabling a genocide, and that is super weird, if you ask me, regarding him to be outspokenly genocidal, and overseeing the current starvation campagn that was unthinkable under Biden.
Why does no one seem to care that Trump is worse than Biden?
redelastic@reddit
This is not true though. Israel withheld aid under Biden and Blinken suppressed reports by US agencies saying this.
You keep asking the same question and so you'll get the same answer.
By the metric of how many people have died, many more people died when Biden was facilitating the genocide. Trump has been more appalling in his rhetoric and many innocent people continue to die.
You seem to be under the impression that Biden was better somehow - just because he pretended to care. He wasn't and is equally complicit in a genocide on his watch.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Can you comprehand that blocking some aid, is not the same as blocking all aid for almost 3 months?
It just seems like that all aid has been blocked for 3 months straight, does not really matter to you.
redelastic@reddit
Maybe you can't count but many, many people died on Biden's watch.
You seem determined to absolve Biden of his war crimes. This doesn't seem to register with you.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Do you also think that Mao Zedong was worse than Hitler, because he is supposed to be responsible for more deaths, when completely disregarding the amount of time in power?
redelastic@reddit
Let's stick to the topic. Stop minimising Biden's role in this genocide.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Yeah the point is that you're doing that with Trump. He is condoning an active starvation campagn, and you're like: "It's because he inherented it from Biden, under whom more people got killed!" instead going like: "yeah that is indeed a new level of barbaric".
redelastic@reddit
It's a plain fact many more people died on Biden's watch.
If you want to deny a proven fact, go for it.
Love_JWZ@reddit
You're boiling everything down to numbers while ignoring that the current trajectory is even more extreme. There's a difference between negligent complicity and openly backing a starvation campaign while pushing for forced population transfers.
You're willing to completely ignore this escelation because more died under Biden.
redelastic@reddit
They are HUMAN LIVES.
Biden actively facilitated a genocide for a year. This is a fact.
Feel free to live in denial, which you are clearly doing.
What Trump is enabling is terrible too.
More than one thing can be terrible.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Do you see that Trump has escelated with saying the Gaza strip should be cleaned, the people should be moved to Lybia and it's ok to starve them meanwhile? Yes or no?
IAMADon@reddit
FTFY.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Biden didn't pressure Netanyahu on a ceasefire isn't tthe same as Biden didn't pressure Netanyahu to let aid enter the gaza strip.
IAMADon@reddit
Pressuring Netanyahu on aid would've meant not going as far as bypassing Congress to break US law and send more weapons after ignoring reports from US agencies saying Israel was blocking aid.
Call him genocide Trump if you want, but people don't generally inherit nicknames because their predecessor did nothing to prevent genocide.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Oh damn. If you put it like that. I read that Trump wants to deport a million Gazans, and is also actively starving the Gazan population. But like you put it: he inherented this genocide so it is not really his fault! /s
like wtf
EH1987@reddit
Biden didn't pressure Netanyahu what so ever and the dock was nothing more than a PR stunt. He got the nickade because he was president while the US supplied a genocide in progress that he was ideologically in favor of.
Love_JWZ@reddit
And Trump did not get the nickname, because?
teslawhaleshark@reddit
Bannon, Hinckle and friends funded the protests, short answer
Love_JWZ@reddit
I seem unable to find a source on this.
EH1987@reddit
Because he merely inherited the genocide from Biden, it's not complicated.
Love_JWZ@reddit
With that same logic, Trump can go build gas chambers to murder two million, and you'd be like: "Biden started this"
EH1987@reddit
We're talking about a nickname, not guilt. Trump is equally as guilty for carrying on what Biden started, but Biden did start it.
Love_JWZ@reddit
You don't think that Trump, with is calls to "clean" Gaza, deport millions and support the active starvation of civilians, is worse?
EH1987@reddit
Once again, we're talking about a nickname.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Regardless of the nickname, youâre saying heâs equally guilty.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
Theyâre both genocidal pieces of shit. The only difference is for one of them people liked the pretend they werenât
whyvernhoard@reddit
I don't remember Biden wanting to own the Gaza strip.
EH1987@reddit
Because he believes it belongs to Israel and that they should take it.
Catholic-Kevin@reddit
Where'd he say that? I don't remember him advocating anything besides a two-state solution.
EH1987@reddit
He is an ideological zionist and an enthusiastic supporter of Israel's crimes, he always has been.
Catholic-Kevin@reddit
So true!
whyvernhoard@reddit
Progressives like the college protesters hate liberals to the point where they'll actively support a more evil person as long as they're not liberal.
Shadow_Gabriel@reddit
Propaganda.
Old_Wallaby_7461@reddit
People here yesterday swore up and down that Biden was worse
jj2jj2aa@reddit
Yep not to mention the ICC already rejected the genocide charge against bibi. But they kept screaming instead of blaming hamas, so here we are.
Something_231@reddit
Oh look who's back, the Israeli shill is unbanned LoL
jj2jj2aa@reddit
Aww my little stalker missed me? A few hundred more hamas dead today, congrats!
Something_231@reddit
damn you still getting paid to defend terrorists? Wow ok
BoniceMarquiFace@reddit
Uhh Bidens team actively went to Egypt to pressure them to re settle Palestinians
The only difference in the two admins is trumps is pressuring Israel to engage in talks, while Bidens avoided pressuring them at all
ExoticCard@reddit
Objectively speaking, Trump has been better for Palestine so far
Withermaster4@reddit
Next you will tell me that Biden was bad for Ukraine because he allowed so many deaths to happen and Trump hasn't let as many deaths happen. You don't think the time of when the conflict started might matter?
okabe700@reddit
Hasn't he allowed Israel to starve Gaza for months now?
ExoticCard@reddit
The entire world has allowed Israel to starve Gaza. It is not America starving Gaza.
Most of Gaza was destroyed under Biden. Most deaths were under Biden. These are simple facts.
okabe700@reddit
Gaza did not starve under Biden, the starvation began in march 2025
And if Trump hinted at disapproval it will end tomorrow
It isn't really a competition but in no way is Trump better
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Palestine is gonna starve no matter what, whoever was gonna be president then didn't matter.
ExoticCard@reddit
What news are you reading? They absolutely did starve under Biden
UN experts declare famine has spread throughout Gaza strip July 9, 2024
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-declare-famine-has-spread-throughout-gaza-strip
giboauja@reddit
Yeah people don't even understand what's going on. They just rapid post there gut feelings.
Biden tried to build a dock to prevent Israel from doing this. Or at least to mitigate Israel's previous excuse of, "trucks can't get past the border "
The dock thing is crazy because it kind of shows how much Biden bought into the straight Israeli version of events. (Which was not neccecarly incorrect, but they were also largely responsible for the supply backlog themselves through other factors)
Oh, so if you need to vet all the goods and can't get them through the normal border because of backlog. We'll build a giant dock and send large amounts of pre vetted good directly, herp derp.
If the seas wernt so garbage it really could of helped. Of course people on this board complained that it was the beginning of a Israeli port.
KaiBahamut@reddit
Didnât they deliver a couple ships of aid, the Israelis used it to stage a raid, then they let the pier break apart? That really looks like Biden built them a pier for an op and the rest was cover.
giboauja@reddit
No that isn't what happened. The seas were too rough and the pier couldn't really hold together. Plus its just impossible to deliver goods into a warzone. Which I'm sure Israel bombed some delivery at some point, but that was likely more of an Israel, if Hamas agent or their family OR there freinds is in your contacts list, special secret targeting metric.
KaiBahamut@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuseirat_rescue_and_massacre
Did you forget about this incident?
binneysaurass@reddit
This isn't objective at all.
Trump's second teem as president isn't even 4 months old.
Biden had a year ffs.
ExoticCard@reddit
Did you see the part where I said so far?
binneysaurass@reddit
Did you see the part where Biden had 16 months and Trump 4?
That isn't a valid comparison at all and certainly not an objective one.
actsqueeze@reddit
*Subject to change*
Debando@reddit
Totally explains why Israel was incredibly excited when Trump won over Harris.
harknation@reddit
tbf itâs very clear the Israelis misjudged Trump and didnât realise that the most easily bribed man in American politics was susceptible to being bribed by the Qatariâs
teslawhaleshark@reddit
What goes on within Trump's head can never be explained by anything written in any holy book
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
A children's book about bribing with food or toy is enough.
BoniceMarquiFace@reddit
I love when radicalized extremists demonstrate their lack of knowledge on an issue and push a disprovable correlation
Things that are popular in israel do not translate to allies with the government
Bibi once campaigned with pictures of himself shaking hands with Putin, and Putin himself was popular in israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-another-league-netanyahu-touts-friendship-with-putin-in-new-billboard/
By the extremist, schizophrenic logic you have, that means we have to ignore everything Putin and Russia do, and find a convoluted rationalization for why Putin is secretly an enabler of the Israeli gov in Gaza even more so than Biden was
Again I appreciate you bringing up that goofy example though, it helps demonstrate my point
Naurgul@reddit
Is this sarcasm?
Paquetty@reddit
Israel was excited because they thought Trump meant unlimited baby murder instead of throttling the amount of baby murder. Turns out American foreign policy is consistent in the amount of baby murder they allow Israel to partake in.
dummypod@reddit
Because they think Trump would bring them more gifts while Biden would be happy just to keep the status quo.
Freud-Network@reddit
The difference would be that Trump does not care what landfill he dumps the Palestinians in. If Trump and Israel could put them in ovens and/or gas them en masse, they would.
WafflesTrufflez@reddit
Yeah I disagree with you there bud, I canât stand Trump, but at least heâs upfront about his intentions. Biden and Harris, on the other hand, pretend to care while quietly enabling a genocide and letting Netanyahu do whatever he wants.
Sometimes having someone as blatantly cruel as Trump actually sparks more public outrage and resistance, because there's no mask, just raw visible support for Zionist violence.
mostard_seed@reddit
Can't really see anything showing this would have been different had the Democrats been in that seat instead.
Love_JWZ@reddit
Evidence that history would have been different does not exist and is silly to ask for. Like evidence the Battle of Waterloo wouldn't have happened if Napoleon would have died in 1793.
It is obvious the battle of Waterloo would not have happened. It's entirely credible. But how do you expect anyone can prove such a thing?
mostard_seed@reddit
Good that you get my point, then. It is indeed silly to say the Democrats would have done any differently. Weird that you go on in the end to say they would, though, but that is your opinion that you are entitled to same as I am to mine.
The ethical barriers Trump broke in the US are very real, but on the Gazan genocide specifically? Yeah whatever they say or don't say is not as important as their actions, and both of them provide a faucet of aid and weapon sales, so.. The difference between the Gazans being gassed and Trump saying that is good, or them being gassed and the Democrats wagging a finger at it while materially providing the same support does not look that huge to me.
Love_JWZ@reddit
No, I didnât "get your point"... I pointed out that itâs absurd to treat historical counterfactuals like court cases. Saying âwe canât know for sure so letâs pretend everyoneâs the sameâ is just lazy thinking.
Youâre pretending material support is the only metric that matters. That lets you ignore context, rhetoric, diplomacy: all of which shape outcomes.
So no. It's not silly to say the Democrats wouldâve acted differently. It's simply comparing their track record, and noticing differences. Dismissing that because you cannot prove alternative history, so everyone is the same, does not make any sense.
mostard_seed@reddit
Then we are at an impasse. I do agree that rhetoric and diplomacy are important, but in an event like this one? They are down the list of relevant metrics compared to material support. Material support directly causes more death and destruction. Material support is what enables this to go on.
It really is not silly to say the Democrats would have acted differently. As I said, they may very likely have wagged a finger (or stayed silent or expressed concern more often). However, I say that I do not think they would have acted differently in the areas that matter the most, and that assumption is also based on their track record and speeches. Ultimately, though, I really cannot disprove your opinion on how it would shape out either because that is not how it shaped out. All we got to go on is what we have seen till now. Have a good day.
Potential-Main-8964@reddit
Do you really have to compare two pieces of shit?
Love_JWZ@reddit
This comment has that "Churchill was a POS just like Hitler" energy
redelastic@reddit
They were both facilitating a genocide.
Biden allowed things to get to this point by doing nothing for a year so is equally culpable.
dummypod@reddit
I don't see a difference, now that we know that the Biden admin has never pressured the Israelis for a ceasefire.
giboauja@reddit
That's not really what was reported. It was more that they didn't enforce any red lines in a "war" against Hamas. Despite saying that there were lines.
They absolutely tried to facilitate ceasefires.
Just what Hamas wanted in a Ceasefire (to still exist) and what Israel wanted (complete demilititarization) was basically incompatible.
Of and I guess way too many people in both government (but more relavently Israel) who were adamantly against a two state solution.
I think its disqualifying for any Israeli or Palestinian government to not support a 2 state solution. I don't care about the bad blood. It will lead to genocide. With Israel being the much stronger state Palestine is the likely loser here.
An overthrown Lebanon, strong Asad Syria and fully successful Houthi Yemen could have reversed this scenario. The theoretical is why so many Israelis are so unhinged about this.
1 death is 1 to many imo. The whole thing feels really hopeless. Especially since Palestinians basically have no agency in this geo political content between Iran and Israel.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
Biden floated around the same plan, just secretly. At the end of the day biden holocausted Palestine and happily handed the baton to trump.
The math of shipping a million people out of the land they cherish into a slavery filled hell hole isnât very good, thereâs a near zero percent chance of this. Unfortunately the Palestinians just being mass murdered is more likely.
https://reason.com/2025/01/27/trump-revives-bidens-failed-proposal-to-remove-palestinians-from-gaza/
https:// x. com/assalrad/status/1921236320883552432?s=46
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redelastic@reddit
How disgusting that we live in a world where the US and Israel openly carry out ethnic cleansing and the so-called "leader of the free world" fully facilitates one of the largest atrocities of the 21st century. Biden and Trump have overseen this genocide. Pure evil, the lot of them.
Entfly@reddit
The Jewish people have been subject to ethnic cleansing en masse for 70 years and you've never once said a word in protest.
No, what's pure evil are people who began this conflict. Who prolong it. And the people who support the aggressors in this conflict.
redelastic@reddit
The world doesn't revolve around Jewish people.
Zionists.
Stop supporting the mass murder of children and babies.
Entfly@reddit
Says the person who is supporting the people who openly state that their goal is the extermination of the Jewish people.
A state which openly invaded a sovereign state and targeted women and children, raped tortured and murdered people in their hundreds.
That's who you're defending.
redelastic@reddit
I don't support Hamas - don't put words in my mouth.
I do support the right of the Palestinians to exist. All I'm defending is their basic human rights. Hard for you to see Palestinians as human beings, I realise.
'Never again' wasn't just meant for Jewish people - or maybe in your view it was.
First of all, Israel has attacked four sovereign states recently - so get off your high horse.
Secondly, the verified deaths in Gaza are 70% women and children - killed by Israel - so get off your high horse.
Thirdly, Israel has raped, tortured and murdered in their thousands. Israel has killed 600 times the number of children - so get off your high horse.
That's who you're defending.
Entfly@reddit
If you support Palestine, you support Hamas.
AFTER being attacked.
Verified by HAMAS
The organisation you supposedly don't support, yet have no problems throwing around their figures and propaganda.
BigOleSmack@reddit
Claiming "If you support Palestine, you support Hamas" is lazy, dishonest rhetoric. It's like saying anyone who supports Americans during war supports the KKK because both happen to live in the same country. Itâs intellectually bankrupt.
Thatâs just not true. Israel has bombed Syria dozens of times in the past year, many without any direct provocation. The UN and multiple international watchdogs have repeatedly condemned these as violations of international law. Lebanon, Iraq, and even parts of Iran have been hit as well, often under the pretense of âpreemptive defense,â which is code for âwe felt like it.â This is completely in line with their long history of being a belligerent state.
Wrong again. Death tolls reported by Gaza's Health Ministry are reviewed and cross-checked by groups like the UN, WHO, and Amnesty International. Even the U.S. State Department has admitted their numbers are generally reliable. If you're going to toss out any casualty number as âHamas propaganda,â youâre basically saying no Palestinian death matters unless Israel personally confirms it, which is dehumanizing and absurd.
You're not making arguments here, you're just doing the typical zionist exercise of accusing everyone who disagrees with you a terrorist while refusing to engage with anything that conflicts with your worldview. Grow a spine.
BigOleSmack@reddit
Note how you do not even attempt to deny that you support the mass murder of children
Love_JWZ@reddit
You don't think it is evil to starve civilians?
Entfly@reddit
I think Palestine should surrender if it wants to be treated fairly.
Every single Palestinian death, is on the Palestinian people for not stopping Hamas themselves.
Legal_Lettuce6233@reddit
Yeah, a 3rd party is causing problems so they should let themselves be ethnically cleansed. 300 IQ move there champ
Entfly@reddit
It's not a 3rd party, it's the government of the fucking country.
Maybe they should try and stand up against Hamas instead of supporting them.
BigOleSmack@reddit
"You should stop forcing me to commit war crimes unlike anything else we have seen this century, I had no choice but to drop the equivalent of a handful of nukes on an area the size of Philly"
Brother you are an embarrassment to the UK, this is beyond disgusting
redelastic@reddit
50% of Gaza are children. They weren't even born when Hamas were elected.
You support killing them.
Entfly@reddit
Because their fertility rate is insane.
And they still support them en masse.
All it takes is a phonecall to go, Hamas soldiers are hiding in that school to help wipe them out.
redelastic@reddit
Their fertility rate is not the point you daft racist - the point is the population is made up of many children.
How Orwellian to punish people in advance for future crimes but that's an insight into the insane Zionist mindset - like a bad Black Mirror episode.
You support the starvation and killing of children. Any normal person might pause, take a step back and consider whether this a moral choice. Not you though.
redelastic@reddit
Every single Israeli death, is on the Israeli people for not stopping Netanyahu themselves.
I presume you are fine with the situation being reversed?
Or - let me guess - you have double standards.
Entfly@reddit
Israel are not the aggressors in this situation
redelastic@reddit
Israel are the aggressor as they have been illegally occupying and subjugating Palestine for decades.
"They started it" is not a valid excuse for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Especially not from a supposed democracy,
I don't support Hamas.
Entfly@reddit
Lie.
Lie.
Neither is happening. So lie.
Hahahahahahhaha.
Definite lie.
WarmRestart157@reddit
Gosh, you are so full of shit
rasdo357@reddit
Who conquered the place in 1948?
Love_JWZ@reddit
Wait. Did you read my question? Because you did not answer it.
You don't think it is evil to starve civilians?
Yes or no?
Entfly@reddit
I think that Palestine can very easily stop this war, and have had the power to die the entire last 18 months.
They're the ones choosing to prolong this conflict and have their children starve instead of giving up Hamas and returning the hostages.
redelastic@reddit
And yet if we were to dehumanise Israelis in the vile way you do, you'd be crying "antisemitism" from the rooftops.
But your brand of deranged hatred is fine for some reason.
Entfly@reddit
Because. Israel. Are. Not. The. Aggressors.
Because. Palestine. Are. The. Aggressors.
Don't invade another country and then start crying because you get slapped.
redelastic@reddit
You're a hypocrite to think it's bad to persecute one group but ok to persecute another.
But this is at the core of the Zionist mindset.
If you think Israel is not the aggressor, you are erasing the last 80 years of history.
It doesn't surprise me that you are so uninformed about the 800 years of colonial occupation in Ireland. From a British Zionist, I'd expect such blinkered, selective ignorance.
SweetLoLa@reddit
Hi, well done. People like that are subhuman. I am glad people like you exist to counter them. Keep up the good fight!
Love_JWZ@reddit
So you don't think it is evil to starve civilians? Correct?
Entfly@reddit
I think a state has ever right to defend itself in any way it deems necessary from terrorist attacks like Palestine have committed.
rasdo357@reddit
You realise that sentiment you're expressing is a genocidal one, no? Collective guilt and punishment?
Love_JWZ@reddit
But why are you to judge who is bad, if you yourself condone the active starving of civilians? How would you address the obvious irony in that?
MuteTitan77@reddit
Interesting how you dodged the question there.
sieurblabla@reddit
The west bank that completely surrendered is pretty fairly treated indeed. We can fully trust the zionists.
/s
SabziZindagi@reddit
Weird how Palestine is suddenly a thing when it's convenient to you.
redelastic@reddit
He doesn't think it's evil to starve or kill Palestinian civilians.
He does think it's evil to starve or kill Israeli civilians.
Such is the moral consistency of his worldview.
JCVad3r@reddit
Ever heard of Nakba or Plan Dalet? Honestly, you're spewing such nonsense, while trying to use history to your advantage that It's hard for me to even argue with you because there's no basis for a discussion. You don't know anything about the history of this conflict, you just pretend that you, offering fake narrative and banal solutions.
zuppa_de_tortellini@reddit
Remember when people were horrified over the mass exodus of refugees from Syria in 2016 that was all thanks to the dictator Assad? Now we get to see it happen with Palestine except instead of Assad itâs Trump and Netanyahu.
BeardySam@reddit
Exodus is the right word to use
PipingTheTobak@reddit
I get that everyone is real mad but....what's a better solution?
Leave em there? We'll do this again and again forever.
"Stop Israel"? They have a nuclear triad and are also at the crossroads of one of the most important regions on earth. Like it or not, if this was all going down in Kryzgstan, we wouldn't care.
Hell, there probably IS. What do you know about Turkmenistan? Me either.
2 state solution? Yeah sure.
Alternatively, find some place where they can live, maybe have something, and move them over there. If they're smart, they'll just fade into the local population. More than likely they'll start their own quasi Zionist movement, but it'll be a couple hundred years before they can possibly develop them numbers or money to really do anything about it, and then its somebody else's problem
redelastic@reddit
Yeah, there's never an alternative to ethnic cleansing.
PipingTheTobak@reddit
We've had 50 years of alternatives.
Call it whatever you want. The war stops, the dying stops. It stops the way these things always do. When one side is gone. Uniquely, we might be able to do "gone" and not "dead"
BallisticFiber@reddit
Try to apply this logic to Ukraine, they would love to hear that they need to be gone, lmao
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Ukraine is almost certainly going to have to end up codeine the occupied territory to Russia, yes. That's what happens when you lose a war
wq1119@reddit
So, when countries lose wars their civilian population can just get fucked?, might makes right?
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Yeah? That's why losing wars is a big deal.
redelastic@reddit
Wow. Psychopath.
PipingTheTobak@reddit
What's your realistic solution?
Not "suddenly the entire population of the US changes its mind on israel."
Realistic solutions for the next two years
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
Yes.
Israel pulls out, lets aid in and voila, problem solved.
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Neat. And you plan on making them do that....how?
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Sanctions on Israel leaders. Anyone connected to the settlement movement.
lol. âWeâve tried nothing so what else can we do but mass ethnic cleansinf?â
PipingTheTobak@reddit
We've been trying to solve this since it started. People got Nobel prizes for getting these people to shake hands.
How have sanctions worked out...anywhere else? Russia, Cuba, North Korea, Syria and so on.
Yes, ethnic cleansing. Not murder, not genocide. Taking the small, weak, population and moving it somewhere else.
Why them? Because you can't move the strong population.
Do you want to stop the war or do you want to posture about rights and justice?
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Israel has literally been expanding settlements for 57 years straight, with no consequences,
Wr could try something brand new: consequences for Israel
PipingTheTobak@reddit
If something has been happening for the past 60 years unchecked, and theres no signs of any checks coming, arguing for checks seems pretty silly.
What's a realistic solution that minimizes death?
There are about 2 good sized cities worth of Palestinians. Thats not a particularly difficult logistical problem. Just take em and put em somewhere else. With their own people
RealisticTrain4299@reddit
To answer your question, yes sanctions on Israel would work as it did on south africa, since they are dependant on the western economy unlike those you mentioned.
To large extent sanctioned worked on iran/syria/hezbollah too.
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Iran has expanded its power significantly since the start of sanctions, admittedly aided by our fumbling in Iraq.
Israel is more likely to have learned from what happened to South Africa than anything else.
And even if so...when are these sanctions going to happen? The only sanctions we've seen so far are US states passing laws to forbid divesting from Israel.
"If everything changes radically we can try something that might eventually work" is not a solution
ijzerwater@reddit
we have tried everything, except pushing back on Israel.
BallisticFiber@reddit
Yeah, zionists like them just don't understand that. They don't even see that they can be wrong by committing genocide. Such a delulu "God's chosen" people they are, ngl
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Im not a zionist, and im certainly not a jew.
This is basic realpolitik. The Palestinians can't win, won't surrender. The Israelis won't stop and all your protests are going nowhere.
So, just like we did with Germans in wwii. We move people around to settle the issue. Worked great then.
Love_JWZ@reddit
The counterargument to that is that it brings us back to oct 7th.
sistersara96@reddit
Nothing short of direct force will have Israel pull out, and nobody understandably has the stomach for that.
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
The US demanding they pull out would do it, enough protests at home will do it, especially since he's going to need all his reservists for this and his greater israel fantasies in syria and trying to get the religious right's exemption from IDF service remoced is not making him popular wiht his base.
Also should Hamas or the Us get the last of the hostages out the Israeli general view is going to go very sour very fast on occupying Gaza since his bipartisan support is absed on fuckign Hamas, not resettling Gaza.
sistersara96@reddit
I highly doubt the US pressuring Israel with stern words, or even a cut in aid, would cause Israel to actually retreat. The end game is basically right around the corner in the Israeli government's eyes and at this point any excuse they can make up will be used to continue the war. They want Palestine plain and simple.
Even with protests i can't see this being something that causes the government to pull a 180°. Netanyahu's government would sooner collapse than back down without him getting whatever it is he wants.
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
Without US involvement there's no end game that doesn't involve Israel having to actually wipe out two million palestinians to take Gaza.
The end game was to destroy Hamas, maybe put back the settlements they removed under the first Hamas peace deal but mass deportations is a Trump offer Netanyahu could only have dreamed off and never, ever pull off without direct and total US support.
meister2983@reddit
On hdi, slightly above the West Bank. So technically an upgrade.
Though I have no idea how the society can absorb so many immigrants so fast. Would be a challenge even if they obviously have plenty of land
Elman89@reddit
This is ethnic cleansing.
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Ok? The bad part about ethnic cleansing is the mass slaughter. Not the moving people part. Heck, the US did that after WWII
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)
wq1119@reddit
reddit.jpg
Ala117@reddit
Another mask off ethnic cleansing apologia.
PipingTheTobak@reddit
So you think that moving germanic peoples around Europe to end the ethnic conflicts was wrong?
meister2983@reddit
Not getting that vibe
redthrowaway1976@reddit
lol. Somehow 19 months of a brutal onslaught is not intimidation or force?
They are making it so thereâs less Palestinians in the area Israel controls.
meister2983@reddit
Sure, but the demographic distribution didn't change
redthrowaway1976@reddit
I they kick out 1m Palestinians, then yes - it does change In the area Israel controls.
meister2983@reddit
Oh you mean overall mandatory Palestine? Yeah I guess it might be a bit less diverse
KaiBahamut@reddit
Gaza will be more homogeneous with Israelis, my guy.
meister2983@reddit
Unless the Palestinians are all gone, the opposite - more diverse
KaiBahamut@reddit
No? Thatâs still more homogeneous.
Elman89@reddit
This is a really stupid discussion. If two groups gang up on a third one and ethnically cleanse it then split their land among themselves, the resulting population will be more diverse but ethnic cleansing has still taken place.
meister2983@reddit
It's only ethnic cleansing if all three were already there as diversity was reduced.
Otherwise, no. This is a very intentional legal meaning. What do you are describing might violate other international laws, but it does not conform with the EU definition of ethnic cleansing.
Elman89@reddit
It's still genocide you dumb fuck.
If the Nazis conquered an area with no German population, took all the Jews and sent them to Madagascar (which was one of their initial plans before they did the Holocaust), that would be ethnic cleansing and it would be genocide. Not as extreme as the mass killing of innocents yes, but still genocide. You're trying to rules lawyer something that isn't even considered a separate crime under international law. It's all under the spectrum of genocide.
You're doing genocide apologia.
meister2983@reddit
That's not a genocide.
KaiBahamut@reddit
But thatâs not whatâs happening here.
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
That will be when the inevitable settlements come in
meister2983@reddit
That actually makes the area more diverse
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
Ethnic cleanisng palestinians and replacing them with Israelis makes it more diverse?
Not sure you understand what diverse means if you think that creating an ethnostate is increasing diversity.
meister2983@reddit
No if it's all Jews, that's not diverse.
But yes, the West Bank strictly speaking is more diverse now with Jewish settlements than it was before hand
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
Jews lived in the west bank before Israel/Palestine were created, the creation of those states and subsequent population transfers and ethnic cleansing has made them less diverse.
However we're taling about Gaza which is entirely palestinian being ethnic cleansed and replaced by Israelis.
meister2983@reddit
Correct - and then settlements made them more diverse again.
Again, unless it gets fully ethnically cleansed, it would end up more diverse if Israelis settled there. (e.g. 2004 Gaza is more diverse than now).
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
This is a post on removing 1 million gazans.
You don't think that if that works they won't just remove the other million?
meister2983@reddit
Diminishing returns and more cost to move more. I highly doubt this will happen and even if it does, I highly doubt they'll get another million to emigrate.
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
Then Gaza will stay palestinian, which I'm sure you'll find unsatisafactorily undiverse
meister2983@reddit
I'm not making a normative claim here at all.
Elman89@reddit
They've been bombing the fuck out of them (they barely specifically did it from north to south in order to draw the population to Egypt's borders) and now they're going to ask them to "voluntarily" leave, as if there wasn't a gun pointed at them. There's nothing voluntary about that, it is indeed using force and intimidation to force them to leave.
And yes, the goal is to annex Gaza, make it Israeli. Both Israeli politicians and Trump have already been talking about it, discussing how it's prime real estate. They want to get rid of the population so they can later send settlers in.
men_with-ven@reddit
This makes the Rwanda Plan look good. Even if nothing comes of it I can't believe that this has even been given more than one seconds consideration before thinking what an evil thing to do.
bluecheese2040@reddit
If they move to Libya, they will move to Europe as that's the main jump off point for the boats.
It's a real shame but the moment they leave gaza I expect a massive humanitarian movement...they aren't going to stay in Libya....why would they? Haa no one seen the ongoing fighting there....likewise...I'd be amazed if the Libyans accept them tbh. Libya has a small population...taking 1m refugees in...
Another 'its easy' idea from trump who thinks everything is a business deal...
gnomo_anonimo@reddit
This will happen without any commotion from Europe but the next day European leaders will be whining over Russia moving 200 people from some village
Western hipocrisy at its finest
BendicantMias@reddit
Err, which leadership? Libya doesn't have one leadership. It doesn't even have one government. All this would do, if such a hare-brained idea could even be carried out, is exacerbate even more war somewhere else.
Also ironically, this hare-brained idea would've been easier to carry out had the west not toppled Gaddafi in the first place. That was another such Big Brain move, and now they want to compound it.
Additional_Ad_3530@reddit
Civil War? I don't know, i have his vague memory about some foreign powers that helped to destabilize that country, something about protecting civilians, but they mess the whole thing, anyway my memory is foggy maybe I dream the foreign intervention part...
PipingTheTobak@reddit
Gotta say, nice to see Qaddaffi still has supporters out here
EH1987@reddit
Say what you will about him, Libya was objectively better off before he was killed and the country was turned into a failed state.
qjxj@reddit
Funny, I remember being assured by liberals that it would never come to this.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
I think itâs those same liberals who said it was anti-Semitic to claim this was Bibiâs goal.
Itâll be interesting to see how PEPs rationalize this. Because rationalize this they will.
vaksninus@reddit
Well that is one option, debatable if it's viable, but I feel like the gaza conflict is a deadlock with two parts that see each other as mortal enemies / or mortal threats.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
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coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found 15 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
Anadolu Ajansı (Right): "Libya denies reports claiming willingness to accept Palestinian refugees from Gaza"
Jerusalem Post (Center): "US developing plan to move 1 million Palestinians to Libya"
Haaretz (Leans Left): "NBC: Trump administration working on plan to relocate one million Palestinians to Libya"
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 40% are left-leaning, 40% are right-leaning, and 20% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 15+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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