AMD Ryzen AI Max+ PRO 395 Linux Benchmarks: Outright Incredible Performance
Posted by ConsistencyWelder@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 128 comments
Posted by ConsistencyWelder@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 128 comments
BigNet652@reddit
I found a website with many free AI models. You can apply for the API and use it for free.
https://cloud.siliconflow.cn/i/gJUvuAXT
auradragon1@reddit
Their review sample costs $8,250 MSRP on HP's website. It starts at $2599 for an AMD Ryzen AI MAX PRO 385 version with 32GB of RAM.
Keep in mind that the M4 Pro in a 14" MBP has a faster CPU, GPU, NPU, and significantly more efficient for $1,999 starting. Much better screen, build quality, speakers, trackpad, battery life, etc as well.
I don't know what HP is thinking.
WPerek@reddit
https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=A3ZH4ET&opt=ABU&sel=NTB#overview
I just bought a 128GB one for £2.6k, they've come down in price nicely.
I will be testing.
imdrzoidberg@reddit
Other companies are selling the same config for $2k. It's just HP being HP.
thaddeusk@reddit
Yeah, I just picked up a Max+ 395 mini-PC with 128GB/2TB for under $2,000. Even the ASUS tablet with 128GB is under $3k, so I'm not sure how HP could charge that much.
ilidanox@reddit
Which mini-PC did you pick?
thaddeusk@reddit
It's the GMKtec Evo X2. Mostly because it was the one I was able to get first :P. I think I'd prefer the Framework one, but I wouldn't have gotten one until Q3 or something.
cabbeer@reddit
It’s also Rdna 3.5 meaning it’s going to miss out on a ton of new features that are just around the corner.. I went from being incredibly excited, to cautiously optimistic, to realizing it’s not going to deliver on the promise at this price point.
ConsistencyWelder@reddit (OP)
AMD is backporting FSR 4 to RDNA 3.
cabbeer@reddit
source?
ConsistencyWelder@reddit (OP)
There's a few sources at AMD saying that, it's not close to being published yet, but they're getting there.
thaddeusk@reddit
I'd even be fine if Microsoft enabled their Auto Super Resolution feature in Windows 11 for it. Then the NPU could finally be useful for something :P.
thaddeusk@reddit
Seems a little excessive. I just picked up a Ryzen AI Max+ 395 mini-PC with 128GB of 8000 MT/s RAM and a 2TB SSD for $1800.
WJMazepas@reddit
HP is probably betting on the AI hype to sell this to enthusiasts who want to run LLMs locally, alongside the fact that this is the only "real laptop" on the market with this APU, the other being that tablet from ASUS which a lot of people wouldn't want it.
Until AMD starts to make more of this Ryzen PRO so other manufacturers can launch new products based on it, HP will continue charging those prices
colin_colout@reddit
Steam Deck 2 could be lit if they can get good pricing on this chip, even if they under-clock it to hell.
WJMazepas@reddit
This chip has a minimum TDP of 45W IIRC
They cant underclock to reach 15W, let alone to 10W
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
colin_colout@reddit
I level1tech released a video where he installs arch and managed to get total system the peak power draw barely under 20w by disabling cores and some other power management settings.
Not near steam deck level, but we're in a usable range. He got 3-4 hours of play time on his z13. I'm sure a tinkerer could get it down a bit more (and remember that's with a large 120hz screen).
Still seems petty far from steam deck power profiles, but maybe they'll release a lower power sku in the future (I can dream).
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Mac has better compatibility fir AI than this APU though.
Truth_Artillery@reddit
I had to choose between upgrading from Mac Studio M2 Ultra 64gb to 128GB and this machine
I chose the upgrade route
a5ehren@reddit
Yup. If you’re gonna give me the choice between ollama on a Mac or trying to get any of AMD’s stuff to work in Linux, I’m taking the Mac.
Ostromilski@reddit
I was actually waiting for people to get their hands on Strix Halo to review and I was fully willing to dish out Mac-level money for a Mini-PC with one, specifically for the purpose of running a local LLM in my homelab. Not anymore after seeing some reviews come out, and especially the pricing on the offerings, and the fact that the memory is soldered on. Half the reason I was looking at non-Apple solutions was so I could maybe have upgradable memory. I'd still rather go blind in one eye than give Apple any of my money, even if it's the best offering on the market, I'd rather just keeping paying the ChatGPT subscription and wait for a better alternative.
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Yeah but you have to buy Apple, so there is that I guess...
PuffyCake23@reddit
No point talking about prices ‘starting at’ with Apple, because those aren’t configurations that are typically useful. It’s also worth noting that the M4 Pro in the MBP you referenced is not faster than the Max+ 395, you gotta pull out an M4 Max for that.
But if we’re going to talk about the Studio let’s do a quick comparison. The Framework desktop has a 128GB Max+ 395 for £2000. Throw in addons and a 4TB 990 pro and you’re at £2,400. The base M4 Max studio comes with 32GB RAM and a 512GB SSD for £2100. I think we all know what happens to the price when you add storage or RAM to a Mac… but there’s the other hook. You CANT add more RAM to the studio without upgrading the CPU to the 16 core.
So apples to apples. 128GB studio with 4TB SSD is £4,800 compared to a £2,400 framework. For 35% more performance on a platform with a limited software ecosystem. Hard pass. And I say that as an M4 Mac mini owner.
auradragon1@reddit
Define "useful". Base Macbooks are insanely good and high value.
No, the M4 Pro is faster. Faster CPU, GPU, memory bandwidth, and NPU.
The rest of your post is irrelevant since the M4 Max is way faster than the 395.
Djarid997@reddit
>>> No, the M4 Pro is faster. Faster CPU, GPU, memory bandwidth, and NPU.
benchmarks ssay otherwise
auradragon1@reddit
Note that the M4 Pro NPU should also be much faster but AMD NPUs are not supported by Geekbench.
Benchmark source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-AI-Max-395-Analysis-Strix-Halo-to-rival-Apple-M4-Pro-Max-with-16-Zen-5-cores-and-iGPU-on-par-with-RTX-4070-Laptop.963274.0.html
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Anything Apple and the word "value" arent things most people would use in the same sentence.
auradragon1@reddit
Why not? Who provides what Apple can at the same price?
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Most alternative hardware vendors. I've never found apple to provide value. Premium product yes, but not value.
auradragon1@reddit
Define value. Show example.
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Lol, likewise...
auradragon1@reddit
Speed. Single thread. Transistor count. Resale value. Build quality. Quality of life.
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Lol, transistor count? Are you serious? Plenty of competitor systems match or exceed any apple device at a lower price point.
Personally I can't stand the apple closed ecosystem, so for me, quality of life is reduced.
Cool, yeah well, apple devices are pretty much designed for hipsters, so you got me there...
auradragon1@reddit
Yes. I’m serious. I’m paying for a 3nm chip. I don’t settle for a 5nm chip for same price.
What systems surpass Apple in speed and efficiency in consumer market?
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Lol, lithography means shit in reality, it's certainly not high on money peoples list when purchasing. Most marketing material wouldn't even mention this, so your point is extremely niche.
Lots of Intel or AMD based systems will beat apple across different benchmarks, it's all down to the cherry picking, no different to apple marketing.
All this talk and I haven't seen a single example from you where "insert any other brand other than apple" is lesser in value.
Regardless, I could pick just about ANY equivalent DELL, HP, ASUS, Lenovo, etc, 14" laptop (for example) compared to an apple MacBook pro M4, and easily spend $500-1000USD less, but still achieve the same outcome, have similar build quality, real world performance, battery life, etc. Sure, in some cases they will perform lower than the apple, but for a lot less money, that to me represents "value".
It's like saying, "oh my Bentley is great, it's so fast, has the latest tech, looks great, makes me feel important" but you've just spent over $300k and a $40k Toyota does the same thing.
auradragon1@reddit
Show me benchmarks, quietness test, battery life test, performance for these Dell, HP, Asus, Lenovo, etc laptops.
Otherwise, you're just full of crap.
Soggy-Camera1270@reddit
Likewise, show me benchmarks, etc, otherwise you are also full of crap, lol. Have fun stroking your apple.
auradragon1@reddit
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-16-M4-Max-review-The-M4-Max-is-one-of-the-fastest-mobile-processors.929593.0.html
PuffyCake23@reddit
Ok, I won’t even argue the point. Let’s assume the M4 Pro is faster. A 128GB 4TB SSD Mac mini M4 Pro is £3,400.
auradragon1@reddit
Why argue? Just use benchmarks.
Note that the benchmark numbers are from laptops.
Benchmark source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-AI-Max-395-Analysis-Strix-Halo-to-rival-Apple-M4-Pro-Max-with-16-Zen-5-cores-and-iGPU-on-par-with-RTX-4070-Laptop.963274.0.html
PuffyCake23@reddit
I’m pretty sure the mobile offerings are 95w parts. The framework is 120w boosting to 140w. But it’s not really worth talking about until benchmarks are released. I think we agree they are in the same ballpark.
But it’s objectively true that Apple isn’t providing a good value proposition here. For the same £2,400 you get half the RAM and a quarter of the storage of your pick up the Mac. For equal storage you pay a whopping £1,000 extra and there is no offering to match RAM unless you move into the Max 16 core arena.
auradragon1@reddit
Yes, maybe 140w 395+ can match the 48w M4 Pro. We don't know. I disagree that they're in the same ballpark. I think for productivity, the M4 Pro absolutely is faster than the 395+.
Also disagreed that Apple isn't providing a good value proposition.
Framework: $1,901.00
M4 Pro Mac Mini: $1,999
gm89uk@reddit
The GMKTec mini PC 128 was 2TB, 128GB RAM for $1799 running at 120w boosting to 140w. That's a far better value proposition than the M4 pro. Obviously a bit more of a risky purchase.
PuffyCake23@reddit
Comparing with a 500GB SSD and a full windows license price? Come on man, that’s a joke and/or intellectually dishonest. With the framework you’re not locked into their ecosystem so you can drop any SSD you want. I thought I was fair pricing one of the best PCIE 4.0 SSDs on the market. You can download and activate windows for free or buy a license for £12.
The point stands. I can have double the ram and x4 the storage of the Mac mini for the same price. In a mini PC who cares if it’s 120w-140w compared to 48w? It’s not on my lap.
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Framework are only charging $69 for the SSD ffs its not miles off the price of one you would buy yourself.
PuffyCake23@reddit
The point wasn’t what framework charges for 500GB. It was that he deliberately chose 500GB to avoid having to compare 4TB.
You can buy a brand new 4TB 990 pro for £250. Apple charges £1,200 for the same 4TB. That’s the joke.
Apple only provides value for money with configurations that are basically unusable. Like a 512GB drive on a £2,000 computer.
auradragon1@reddit
It's a Mac Mini. Just buy an external drive if you need more storage. You can't buy the efficiency, speed, performance of an M4 Pro in a Framework, period.
PuffyCake23@reddit
It’s a £2,000 computer that relies on the jank, and cost, of external storage whilst serving up half the RAM. Real performant man.
auradragon1@reddit
Why would you ever pay £2,000 for a Framework AMD computer that has way worse performance and efficiency than Apple? Makes no sense.
PuffyCake23@reddit
Because it has x2 RAM, x4 storage, will probably beat the M4 pro in MT workloads at framework power levels, can be used as a server, a workstation, a little gaming rig, and run LLMs.
You’d sacrifice all of that for better single threaded performance and efficiency?
auradragon1@reddit
And run them all worse. Terrible value. Stop paying well over £2,000 for TSMC N4 and N6 node chips. Rip off.
PuffyCake23@reddit
That’s less than twice what you pay for a 4TB SSD. It’s a better server, probably equivalent workstation, better gaming rig, and ever so slightly worse at running LLMs. Far more versatile, far greater value for money.
auradragon1@reddit
I love to see r/pcmasterrace posters come here and have nothing else to say except "but but you get more RAM and storage and Windows!". Not so master race anymore huh? Not when you are generations behind in performance and efficiency.
Lazy_Somewhere1774@reddit
I have an M3 16" maxed out laptop and an M4 13" nearly maxed out. I have a framework desktop coming maxed out. Why? Because it runs non mlx optimized models at equal performance for half the price (linux, not windows). You're spouting off a lot of garbo.
auradragon1@reddit
Why would it run non mlx models at the same performance? An M3 or M4 Max literally has doubled the GPU and memory bandwidth.
toofine@reddit
Raking the braindead over storage/memory scam prices still a damn good business it seems. They just never get it.
auradragon1@reddit
Those are either stolen, illegal OEM or volume license.
I'm showing show you what Framework actually sells on their website. $69 for a 500GB SSD is pretty fair.
Your points have been proving wrong this whole time. And no, you can't double the RAM and 4x the storage for the same price. That's just wrong. Power still matters because the Mac Mini is virtually silent at all times.
loczek531@reddit
I mean this guy suggests getting EDU discount on Mac while not being a student, whats the difference.
auradragon1@reddit
EDU can mean anything to Apple. It's a legitimate way.
Buying stolen Windows license keys is just pure illegal.
PuffyCake23@reddit
Who cares what framework sells on their site when it’s an open eco system and you can use any SSD you want? You just DESPERATELY don’t want to compare price with anything other than the smallest SSD imaginable because you know it absolutely destroys the value proposition of a Mac. And you’re a sucker if you’re spending $2k on a computer with a 512GB SSD that can’t be replaced or upgraded at any time.
AnuroopRohini@reddit
he is either idiot or iSheep
auradragon1@reddit
It's a Mac Mini. Plug an external drive into it if you need storage. Who the hell cares.
You're getting more value from a Mac Mini than a Framework. That's the point.
PuffyCake23@reddit
And yes, I can have a framework Pc on my desk with 128GB of RAM and a 4TB Samsung 990pro SSD for £2,400. The same £2,400 gets me a 64GB Mac mini with a 1 TB SSD.
1 = 1/4 of 4 64 = 1/2 of 128
auradragon1@reddit
And I can have a Mac Mini M4 Pro 64/512 that is faster than your Framework PC in CPU, GPU, better build quality, quieter, more memory bandwidth for LLMs. All for $62 cheaper.
PuffyCake23@reddit
So half the RAM and 1/8 of the SSD. Cool. And I get in return, checks notes, 10% more memory bandwidth an unknown performance gain, probably nothing.
auradragon1@reddit
What?
Framework: $1,901.00 (configured with minimal to work)
M4 Pro Mac Mini: $1,999 ($1,839.00 EDU, Apple does not verify if you have EDU. Honor system.)
PuffyCake23@reddit
I already told you I can get a framework on my desk with 4TB SSD and 128GB of RAM for £2,400. You said you can get a 64/512 Mac mini for $62 cheaper. Doesn’t seem like a good deal to me.
auradragon1@reddit
So if you need 4TB and 128GB of RAM, the Framework can offer more value. I disagree because the CPU, GPU, NPU are slower and the build quality is worse.
If you need 64/512, the Mac Mini M4 Pro offers more value. Not even close.
PuffyCake23@reddit
Basically if you need anything more than 512GB the framework offers more value. Which is basically everyone at the £2,000 price point. 512GB is an embarrassment.
You also don’t know that the CPU and GPU in the framework are slower. It does have 10% less memory bandwidth though.
auradragon1@reddit
Nah. Just get an external SSD. Who cares. It's not sitting on my lap. It's a desktop.
Macs offer much better value than Framework for 90% of people.
It's definitely slower. Come on. Lol. You serious? Just look at the ST difference. You should know how snappy an M4 ST is. You claim to own an M4 Mini (which I doubt).
PuffyCake23@reddit
I have a PC running sunshine and I use an M4 Mac mini to stream games with moonlight. I also own a MBP, although that one is an intel model. I’m happy and comfortable with both. I also see the strengths and weaknesses of both.
The framework has loads more storage, loads more RAM, and I’d be willing to bet comparable CPU and GPU performance. Plus it’s an open ecosystem.
I’d like to grab one to replace my 7950 server. Can’t do that with a Mac mini. At least not well. I would also like to run 70B Q5 models. I think the Mac mini could do it, but damn would you be cutting it close and the you’re stuck, no more ram.
I also have a dock for the Mac mini with an embedded NVME. Let’s not pretend external storage is convenient or reliable. That’s not a solution, that’s jank.
auradragon1@reddit
This tells me you don't know what you're talking about.
Do you realize how slow 212GB/s would run a 70B Q5 model? That's why 128GB on Strix Halo for local LLMs is pointless because the bandwidth is too slow.
PuffyCake23@reddit
It’s 256GB/s. And it wouldn’t be unusable. Probably about 2-3 tokens/s.
auradragon1@reddit
2-3 tokens is watching paint dry.
PuffyCake23@reddit
The alternative is 3 3090s, 3 4090s, maybe 2 5090s, a £4,800 studio, or an epyc dual socket system. I’d rather watch paint dry with a cool quiet 4.5L mini PC. That’s the whole point. These models are now accessible for 1/2 the cost of a studio for 1/2 the performance. Previously there simply wasn’t anything filling this space.
auradragon1@reddit
$2,301 for 395 128GB Framework.
$3,149.00 for 128Gb M4 Max Studio.
Stop making stuff up.
That's why the M4 Pro 64GB is a way better value than Framework 64GB. At such low bandwidth, you don't want to run 70b models so the 128GB of RAM is pointless for local LLMs.
PuffyCake23@reddit
With 4TB SSD the studio is £4,800 and the framework is £2,400.
Plus I also said I’d like to use it as a replacement to my server. That 128GB RAM would be handy.
I think Apple fan boys have forgotten the utility of RAM and storage because they can’t afford either.
cangaroo_hamam@reddit
Base Macbooks are the exact opposite of "insanely good value". They are meant as pricing hooks, to define a low starting point so they can claim "starts at only $999" (* for a facebook browsing machine with 8GB of RAM). You climb up in multiples of +$200 steps to reach to a configuration suitable for serious work.
auradragon1@reddit
Base Macbooks offer the best value.
For example, you can get an M4 Mini with 16GB of VRAM for $500 EDU discount. Amazon has the M4 Air for $850 on sale.
These are top notch quality computers for an affordable price.
New_Enthusiasm9053@reddit
It's got worse software compatibility than Linux. Their hardware is insanely good and the price is good but it's a shame their OS is utter shite.
auradragon1@reddit
That's weird to say. macOS has better software compatibility than even Windows for me. For example, Zed is my favorite code editor and it's available for macOS and Linux but not Windows. https://zed.dev
Sketch is my favorite UI tool and it's only available for macOS. https://www.sketch.com/
I've seen countless examples where an app is best in class on macOS and second class on Windows and Linux.
New_Enthusiasm9053@reddit
You could argue that but you'd be wrong. Outside of creative industries everything is windows or Linux first. Linux through wine then also gets a lot of windows tools running. MacOS can't run games basically at all. It's got no chance on industrial tools.
You brought up a text editor which is the kind of thing you could make yourself in a couple of weekends and a UI tool which is a creative arts thing.
Docker is Linux first, Kubernetes is Linux first, Games and industrial tooling and office software are windows first. MacOS has Adobe and that's about it.
Their hardware is essentially junk to me.
Props to their hardware folks, it's a shame they get sandbagged so hard by their software and marketing people.
auradragon1@reddit
Honestly, as a software engineer, it's laughable what you just wrote.
Given that you frequently post on video game subreddits, I'm guessing you're a gamer? Gamers on r/hardware are blissfully unaware of just how much macOS dominates in software engineering and productivity.
macOS is first class citizen for all software engineering tools. Period. End of story.
Kubernetes is not Linux first anymore than it's macOS first. Guess what computers people use to develop Kubernetes on? Macs.
New_Enthusiasm9053@reddit
Honestly as a software engineer it's pretty laughable what you wrote. No one uses MacOS other than frontend and they could work on a Chromebook. Half our tools wouldn't even run on MacOS because no one even compiles for it.
Seriously Zed, a code editor no one uses was your defense.
auradragon1@reddit
Hilarious. I've worked in FANGG, MAG7 companies, and various startups in Silicon Valley. 95% of software engineers in Silicon Valley use a Mac. Backend. Frontend. Midend. Leftend. Rightend. Doesn't matter. All Macs.
I've also visited the Reddit office and yep, all software engineers there use Macs too. So you're using a platform written on Macs right now.
PS. The 4% use a PC with Linux installed and the 1% use Windows for testing their apps on Windows.
New_Enthusiasm9053@reddit
Cool, nothing important is built with MacOS my dude. No respirator on the planet was built using a Mac. No ABS system, no flight control system. So yeah frontend devs and silicon valley are the only ones using macs. They're a waste of money with poorer software compatibility than Windows or Linux.
vlakreeh@reddit
Brother, even the Linux kernel has had code submitted that has been written on a Mac. Glibc? Mac contributors. Llvm? Tons of Mac contributors. V8? Mac contributors. Even Nasa let's their engineers use Macs to write code.
a5ehren@reddit
I mean yeah, MacOS is really good at running vscode and the Remote-SSH extension.
New_Enthusiasm9053@reddit
Was it a bit hyperbolic sure, reality is it's still the worst supported OS for any software outside creative arts. Windows obviously dominates overall there and Linux wins on server side tech and through wine also has better support for a lot of windows tools that macOS cannot run.
Was it light trolling too sure but it's also just tedious when people pretend Macs don't have downsides. The hardware is good, the software is terrible for the amount of money they spend on it.
There's a reason they manage a measly 15% market share on desktop and it's not pricing(which is actually good for base spec macs nowadays) and it's largely because Apple has to be special about everything so the software support is bad.
E.g Lots of games run on Vulkan, which Apple is on the committees for so they made Metal which no one supports just to be different.
It's not like Apple is required to have poor market share on desktop, they absolutely could rival windows if they stopped smelling their own farts constantly.
auradragon1@reddit
That's how I know you're either a troll or you're truly ignorant.
AnuroopRohini@reddit
he is right apart from Software Engineering, nobody uses Mac, every scientific discovery happens in Linux/Windows system, most of the 2d/3d Creation work happens in Linux/Windows, Most of the Engineering done on Linux/Windows, Most of the Defense Related software are developed in Linux/Windows systems, People in those industries only use Mac for presentation
Only in Coding, Software and Music industry uses Mac, people using Mac in IT industry doesn't mean every Industry uses Mac 😂😂🤡🤡
auradragon1@reddit
Founder of Linux uses an M2 Air: https://www.reddit.com/r/gadgets/comments/we5sx8/linus_torvalds_uses_m2_macbook_air_to_release/
AnuroopRohini@reddit
"Linus Torvalds currently uses an Apple MacBook Air with an M2 processor when he's on the road. He runs Fedora Workstation 36 on it, although he notes that it's not yet recommended for general use, as he had to port Fedora himself. He also uses an AMD Ryzen Threadripper workstation as his main system. "
lol his main work system is a AMD Ryzen system 😂😂😂
New_Enthusiasm9053@reddit
On which he runs Fedora lol. Mac hardware is excellent it's just objectively the worst supported OS and it's not even close.
auradragon1@reddit
You'd have to be an idiot to believe that.
vlakreeh@reddit
Distributed systems engineer here at a large public cloud, I (alongside the majority of my coworkers) use MacBooks.
What kind of weird ass tools are you using as a software engineer where there isn't a Mac build? Other than things that are very Linux specific, like Docker without a whole ass virtual machine, I haven't run into any issues since I got a Mac for software development 3 years ago.
cangaroo_hamam@reddit
The "M4 Mini" is not a macbook.
The M4 Air starts at about 1200 euros in Europe. Now that it comes with 16GB minimum RAM, it's not a horrible deal as it definitely used to be. But for the same money, you get Windows laptops with at least double or 4x the storage space, and a much better screen (OLED), possibly with touch support, and maybe a pen thrown in (as was the case with my laptop).
vlakreeh@reddit
A windows machine with inferior build quality and either a much slower processor (lunar lake) or a much less efficient processor. The issue with windows laptops right now is that you have to compromise somewhere, typically efficiency unless you're fine with a slower CPU like lunar lake.
256gb is storage definitely isn't good, but I think it's also not a big deal for most Mac users. The operating system is a lot smaller than Windows and huge applications (like games) aren't nearly as common. My macbook pro that I do software development on has a 1tb SSD and after having it for a year and a half I'm at 187GB used with 0 manual intervention of me going to free up space.
This is incorrect, MacBook Airs support two external monitors plus the built in display.
cangaroo_hamam@reddit
You are describing problems that I am not experiencing with my windows laptop. Built like a tank. The M socs are state of the art indeed, but that does not make the x86s slow.
The performance of laptops is a solved issue. Current gen CPUs are way way faster than most users needs (I develop software on a low power mobile 8core Ryzen CPU, three generations old, and it flies). Also the M4 on the Air is mostly a bragging point. In reality, its passive cooling means it will be heavily throttled. And still most will not notice because performance is not a bottleneck anymore for the average user.
The storage limit in Macs is mostly Mac users being made fun of by Apple by asking $200 for an extra 256GB of storage. You cannot not laugh at that. And no, storage is not more efficient in Macs, it's just that you don't need much of it. Others beg to differ.
The 2 external monitor issue with the Airs was solved only recently.... again... after being made a laughing stock for a few years.
And let's have a reality check inwhat value really means... You can buy a solid windows laptop for office, media and internet use for as low as 400 euros nowadays. And there will be zero performance complains.
vlakreeh@reddit
Durability is not build quality. You can have a very sturdy laptop that'll take a beating that's made out of plastic and feels like shit, or a laptop that's made of metal and flexes like hell if you hold it from a corner but won't scratch if you leave it in a bag with your keys.
Plenty of x86 CPUs are fast, even faster than M4 when it comes to multicore loads, but there's not a single CPU that's both faster and as efficient. That's my point.
Definitely not a solved issue, but yes we're at the point where current CPUs are faster than what a user "needs". That doesn't mean there's no benefit from having a faster CPU, especially if you are interested in doing anything remotely intensive.
In long sustained loads yeah, but the advantage in being faster and more efficient is you can typically do most of the work before the laptop is heat soaked. I used to do software development on an M1 macbook air and could manage a 2 minute rust compile before the laptop slowed from throttling.
I think it's hypocritical to say that users don't need more CPU but do need more storage when the biggest complaint about windows laptops (other than battery life) are that they're slower than the M series. Yes more storage would be nice, but I think if the argument is what a user "needs" then 256gb is plenty but then all a user really needs is a 256gb ssd, 8gb of ram, and a quad core than can run an internet browser.
And every windows laptop has been getting laughed at for battery life, a problem much more important than the number of external displays, since Apple Silicon launched and it's still not on par with Apple's offerings.
I think you're trying to determine value by the cheapest possible device that can offer an acceptable experience vs what I and the other commenter are talking about which is the amount of money for a good experience. You can buy a cheap laptop with a 1200p screen and a mushy keyboard and get no complaints from someone that does excel 8 hours day but I think anyone would agree that's not a laptop you want to be using for 8 hours a day. The bar for what a user will use and what a user likes are two separate things, which is evident by the sales difference in the >$1000 price category with consumers.
cangaroo_hamam@reddit
you keep repeating stuff that is not true.
There are windows laptops that are very well made. And I mean build quality. Metal, sturdy, military grade... There are many which are not very well made, true, but a lot are. You CAN find a very well made windows laptop.
I stand by my statement: performance on laptops is a solved issue for the average users. I have deployed \~€400 Lenovo Ideapads (with lowly Ryzen 3s) for office & media use, and they are absolutely great for what they do. Zero complaints. They come with super nice IPS screens also. And these are laptops I would gladly be using for 8 hours a day, they are that good.
(You should take a breath outside your apple ecosystem and your favorite reviewers more often.)
"...the biggest complaint about windows laptops ... are that they're slower than the M series."
No, most people do not care! Only power users, reviewers, and some users who just like to compare stuff or must have absolutely the best and the fastest at any cost.
Again: The performance of modern x86 laptops is already overkill for most users.
You are absolutely correct that Apple builds some of the best hardware, and is top in performance, battery life and portability. I will not deny facts.
However the consumer must pay for that in double or triple the price to have these accolades in your resume.
Your 1TB storage alone probably cost you around $600 in Apple tax. That's a €70 for 1TB for windows users (fast PCIe 4 nvme). Are you really having a +$600 better experience out of your 1TB? Or did someone convince you of that. Same goes for the other stuff you overpaid.
auradragon1@reddit
If you only count TB as "value", sure.
Do you count fanless, quiet, cool, fastest SoC in class, longest battery life in class, ultra thin, metal enclosure, speakers, trackpads, high resolution screen as value?
Klutzy-Residen@reddit
Macbooks starts at 16 GB RAM now which has completely changed the value proposition.
ContactNo6625@reddit
This is a new product line for AMD. The price is normal for a low volume product. As soon as they make enough of the APU's prices will half.
kdejaeger_nl@reddit
More like, if they'd release it in a normal laptop, the other laptops wouldn't sell.
gamebrigada@reddit
All HP/Dell/Lenovo laptops sell at an elevated price right after release, and are dropped as demand starts to be below supply. Right now these things are selling like hot cakes because people are willing to pay 8k$ for these things. I can get a decent discount because I have a high volume account with HP but its still nowhere near standard discounts on HP workstations a few months after release.
agressiv@reddit
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1884051-REG/hp_bf6u5ut_aba_14_zbook_ultra_g1a.html?msockid=04c1549b9e5c68ef272f41779f7069aa
HP/Lenovo/Dell MSRP prices are a joke, and should never be taken seriously, even on an otherwise common laptop.
Apple MSRP's are essentially a real world price. You can still get discounts on them, but not 70%.
That being said, these devices are aimed at corporates, not consumers. These "TopSeller" / "SmartBuy" sku's are pre-discounted, but the discount is good for a small business. There are other SKU's that can be discounted further, or you do a CTO (custom SKU) to get a much better discount depending on purchase volume.
If you are a Fortune 500 company that wants this laptop in some fashion, it will be considerably less than the $3900 price I have listed above.
Kryohi@reddit
The M4 Pro is slower than Halo in everything except CPU single core.
Agreed on the price of the HP being too high though.
auradragon1@reddit
Note that the M4 Pro NPU should also be much faster but AMD NPUs are not supported by Geekbench.
Benchmark source: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-AI-Max-395-Analysis-Strix-Halo-to-rival-Apple-M4-Pro-Max-with-16-Zen-5-cores-and-iGPU-on-par-with-RTX-4070-Laptop.963274.0.html
RandomCollection@reddit
Usually HP sells a lot of laptops to corporate customers who get steep discounts. The same about companies like Lenovo and Dell.
So they are not paying for the same prices as listed on the website. Apple's bulk discounts are far less generous.
Truth be told, even individuals get discounts. When I bought my Lenovo workstation, it was 60% off on Black Friday (although in practice it is often 45% off on their website, so the real discount is smaller)
Swaggerlilyjohnson@reddit
I agree and for me this biggest problem is not even the competing laptops.
The M3 Ultra with 512gb is 15% more money but absolutely destroys this for llms and the framework desktop is 2k for 128gb I get laptop vs desktop and the framework needs an ssd monitor etc, but I just don't see the purpose of spending so much on something like this for a business or professional purpose.
I assumed the purpose of strix halo was for hobbyists or researchers on a budget because even a 128gb model is kind of contrained in the grand scheme of things. Having a local model that is competing with free chat gpt is not a good spot to be in.
The Local models are very all or nothing imo i think amd is angling to offload some stuff that doesn't make much sense in the AI craze. If these laptops were 512gb I would have a very different opinion though. It just seems like they are trying to sell hobbyist stuff for pro prices here.
auradragon1@reddit
The purpose was that when AMD first saw the M1 Pro/Max, they thought on shit and needed something to compete. The local LLM scene is still a small niche (but growing). It just so happens that Strix Halo is not bad for small local LLM models. No, these small local models can't compete against ChatGPT, even the free version of ChatGPT.
512GB would be useless because the effective bandwidth on these things is ~212GB/s. It doesn't even reach the advertised 256GB/s. This is slower than even the M4 Pro's 273GB/s, let alone the M4 Max's 546GB/s or the M3 Ultra's 819GB/s. LLMs are bandwidth starved as much as they are capacity starved.
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Without AI why on earth would anyone even think of buying Strix Halo for these prices?
isugimpy@reddit
I bought one for gaming on. Finding an all AMD laptop is hard. Finding a tablet form factor to game on is hard. Strix Halo satisfied my needs nicely. Obviously, given that I went for a tablet, I didn't buy the HP. That thing's obscenely overpriced. But the Asus Z13 is the same chip and delightful, and far less expensive.
auradragon1@reddit
Even with AI, it makes no sense.
bnolsen@reddit
Will these ever have upgradeable memory? The tax on the store in RAM looks to be very apple like and there should be no need for it.
carl2187@reddit
The powerful igpu demands fast ram. Right now soldering is the only way to get the 8000mhz ram that makes this thing worthwhile. But personally I agree, id rather have 6000mhz but upgradable ram to run giant models.
totalreclipse@reddit
Would this also work for ai image generation? Or only LLMs?
uBlockFrontier@reddit
Both
monkkbfr@reddit
GMKtec EVO-X2 AI Mini PC
$1999
https://www.gmktec.com/products/amd-ryzen%E2%84%A2-ai-max-395-evo-x2-ai-mini-pc
CPU AMD Ryzen™ AI Max+ 395 • 16 cores / 32 threads • TSMC 4nm FinFET process • Up to 5.1 GHz (MAX) • 16 MB L2 Cache / 64 MB L3 Cache • TDP: runs steadily at 120W (peak up to 140W)
GPU Radeon 8060S Graphics
• 40-core RDNA 3.5 architecture AI NPU Based on XDNA 2 architecture • 50 TOPS • Overall processor performance up to 126 TOPS
• LM Studio: AI performance 2.2× higher than NVIDIA RTX 4090 with lower power consumption
Memory (RAM) Onboard LPDDR5X (non-upgradeable) • Options: 64GB ($1499) or 128GB ($1999) • Speed: 8000MHz
Primary Storage (ROM) PCIe 4.0 M.2 2280 SSD • Capacities: 2TB or 4TB • Supports PCIe 3.0/4.0 (SATA drives are not supported) Internal Storage Expansion Dual M.2 2280 slots • Maximum total storage: 16TB (each slot supports up to 8TB via PCIe GEN4 x4)
Video Output Available via HDMI, DisplayPort, and USB4 • Maximum supported resolution: 7680×4320 @ 60Hz Network (WiFi & LAN) WiFi: • Wifi7: RZ717(MT7925)
Ethernet: • 1 × RJ45 Gigabit LAN (2.5G, 8125BG)
Bluetooth Bluetooth 5.4
Power – Charger DC 19.5V, 11.8A (~230.1W)
• AC Input: 100–240V, 50/60Hz, 4.0A Front Panel I/O • 2 × USB-A 3.2 Gen2 • 1 × Audio Combo (3.5mm jack) • 1 × USB Type-C (USB4.0) • 1 × SD Card Reader (SD4.0, supports SDXC) • Buttons: Power, System Fan Lighting Control, Performance Mode Switch
Rear Panel I/O • 1 × DisplayPort 1.4 HBR3 (8.1 Gbps) • 1 × HDMI 2.1 (FRL at 8 Gbps) • 1 × USB-A 3.2 Gen2 • 2 × USB-A 2.0 • 1 × USB Type-C (USB4.0) • 1 × Audio (3.5mm CTIA) • 1 × DC IN (5525 interface) • 1 × RJ45 Gigabit LAN (2.5G, 8125BG)
YOU • Window 11 Pro
Chassis / Form Factor • Dimensions: 193 mm x 185.8 mm x 77 mm
• Chassis finish: B/C-grade metal with CNC sandblasted oxidized finish; A-shell plastic spray coating
LLM support • 64GB+1TB：DeepSeek-Rl: 32B • 128GB+2TB：DeepSeek-Rl: 32B, DeepSeek-R1: 70B, Lama 4: 109B
TheAppropriateBoop@reddit
This looks like a beast of a processor
Dependent_Big_3793@reddit
beast on mobile device
zopiac@reddit
Incredible performance, especially compared to the 370 while only having 33% more cores. I wonder how much of it comes down to power budgets between the systems though, as my HX 370 miniPC can easily draw 100W (although it beats my 5800X3D for many, perhaps most workloads).
dogsryummy1@reddit
The 370 has 4x Zen 5 and 8x Zen 5C cores, this has 16 full fat Zen 5 cores.
zopiac@reddit
Thanks for the info. I was honestly too lazy earlier to check.
And certainly that does demand far more power, as the 370 handily beats it in efficiency stats -- I just wasn't sure how much could be simply attributed to power budgets as those can be all over the place between laptop models.
lwurl2@reddit
I got the PRO 385 in an HP Zbook from work, and I’m actually throughly impressed. First time my work laptop hasn’t been slow, I’m never waiting on it.
ollie432@reddit
Me hoping this is just early adopter tax and these will come down in price sharply