Why is Germany not super popular with expats?
Posted by Minute-Pea783@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 393 comments
I know, there is plenty of expats/immigrants in Germany. But I feel like there's a LOT more Western (Europeans, Americans, Aussies...) people that move to countries like Spain and Portugal, than to Germany. Can anyone explain why? Any reasons minus the weather and Germans having the reputation of being 'cold'?
I currently live in Spain and while I love it, I recently visited Germany for a couple of weeks and absolutely loved it. The weather was actually much better than in Spain, where it has rained a ton in the past couple of months. I German towns and cities are just so beautiful, and so green. I noticed so much more greenery, parks, walks, etc. in Germany than in Spain. Public transport is good, love the beer gardens, the many bakeries and cafes. Groceries are cheaper in Germany, and salaries are higher. It's so beautiful and walkable everywhere, all the swimming lakes and rivers were amazing, I went on some great hikes in the leafy forests, and I did not think Germans were rude or cold.
What's your opinion on Germany? Why is it not more popular?
alloutofbees@reddit
I like a lot of things about Germany, but I'll be honest—although I get along really well in some very similar cultures, I do not click with German culture at all. I've worked and travelled there and have even lived with Germans in the past, and it's the one country in Europe that is a hard no for me. (I'm actively looking at places to move to next so I've given it a lot of thought.) Too many encounters with people who aren't just rude or cold but are actively mean. Rather than being direct like the stereotype, I've had people just straight up lie to my face in order to get out of doing things or even as some kind of revenge for a perceived slight, which is absolutely infuriating. I've had people loudly insult me while they were on the clock at their jobs. Combined with the inflexibility about doing everything by the book even when it actively makes things worse for everyone involved, it's just an incredibly frustrating combination of traits. I've also met plenty of lovely Germans obviously, but it only takes one person to make your day a lot shittier and it just happens to me in Germany way more than any of the other 39 countries I've been to.
And I really feel at home in the Nordics where people are also pretty cold and in Japan where people are also extremely rule-oriented. None of these things are deal breakers by any means. Germany just hits different.
BirdyHowdy@reddit
I once worked with a German woman but I could not deal with her know-it-best attitude. I told her that I can't stomach it.
She begged me not to quit but work for her with her Indian husband instead. And do you know what? Her husband from Indian was a delight to work with. We got along great. I just wonder how he was getting along with her, haha!
BerryOk1477@reddit
A lot depends, where in Germany you live. People in Bavaria are a bit more easy going.
The school system in Germany is very selective and not supportive. When you learn to adapt, you will get along. It's trained from the beginning.
What I observed many times during the decades of work, is that many good people got destroyed because they where excellent, and where replaced with mediocrity at the workplace. It's a very hierarchical system.
Try to work for an international company, with a more team based management style and workers from other continents.
The retirement system is based on continually working in Germany, not so much the amount you pay in alone. Working abroad, getting international experience on your own,, destroys it. Its timewise heavily based on the last years/decade of work. There is massive age discrimination hiring older workers, with negative impact on their retirement system.
Young Germans have to travel more outside Europe, to experience other cultures, and see how rapidly developing other continents are, essentially in Asia. I rarely see Young Germans travel in Asia off the beaten path, like in the decades before. More young people from Spain.
BirdyHowdy@reddit
Bavarians are THE WORST!!!!!
Athingwithfeathers2@reddit
I read an article a few years ago on WaPo about upper class twits in government and industry getting caught lying about academic credentials and achievements. It's been awhile, the memory's fuzzy, but one minister was found to not have a degree from a uni he didn't attend. I've also found Germans, like too many others, very class oriented. When I was a teen, wealthier German men acted like they had a right to hit on me. Ecchhh! I even had couples on vacation solicit sex when I was in college. Only 2 of those creeps weren't German.
Apotropaic-Pineapple@reddit
Yeah. I constantly see people cutting in line at the supermarket. You don't see that in Netherlands. The general rudeness in Germany is noticeable.
BirdyHowdy@reddit
Horrible. Just wait until they invade again.
AllPintsNorth@reddit
Not defending the Germans… but I’m sorry… I have a terrible opinion of the Dutch based on how they behave on the Pisten in the Alps…
Anarchy.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
I remember seeing an article/video of that cathedral in Santiago de Compostela where the pilgrims get a blessing after they have walked the camino for \~30 days. It is typical for the tired pilgrims carrying those huge backpacks to leave their backpacks on a seat when they arrive there, while they have a look at the church and the come back.
Well, this Dutch couple of NON pilgrims got there, and just decided to take two of those backpacks and put them on the floor so they could sit there themselves and refused to let the pilgrims who had 'reserved' the seats sit there. And that's how they made it to the camino news.
AllPintsNorth@reddit
Doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.
But I’m assuming it’s a similar dynamic as the Germans. Work hard, and play harder. Meaning they are following all the little rules while at home, but rules be damned anywhere else. If they aren’t at home, it doesn’t count as real life.
LoyalteeMeOblige@reddit
Yes, there is a lot of that in the Northern countries, they behave well inside for the system is ruthless if you are found at fault, but the second they crossed the borders is WILD ON.
LoyalteeMeOblige@reddit
It depends on the Dutch, I live in Utrecht for almost 3 years now, and I have 2 main complaints about them: they LOVE to dish about everyone and everything, but woe betide you if you pay them in kind.
And my second is the perception of personal space, if you are at supermarket or any place, and you are in their way they would shove you if needed, and also act annoyed for YOU touched them. I’m sorry, I was picking my bananas back off! Same applies to bikes on places they shouldn’t be, this country is a huge bike lane in itself, there are little sidewalks so whenever they are trying to cycle on one I do not move on purpose, one of twice I even screamed at them because of it. My husband says it is like my personal war with them and he is… well, right.
Apart from these two silly things, I love being here.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
The Dutch are horrible generally speaking. I remember seeing Dutch people on bikes go out of their way and PURPOSEFULLY get in the way of tourists walking in Vondelpark in zones meant for pedestrians. The poor tourists would apologize not knowing they were being bullied essentially.
LoyalteeMeOblige@reddit
They played the same sh... here in Utrecht, and don't get me started on the bloody flatbikes, I think I speak for everyone when we say we want to throw them in the canals, and with everyone on board in them so they would learn their lessons.
Amsterdam is savage, there are no sidewalks, and the little there are have 2-4 bikes parked in the middle of the way, in the historical areas you can't literally not be in someone's way. Add to this the tourists not knowing, or caring, they are walking by on bikelanes and it is a mess. Then the Dutch has a tendency to pedal faster when they see someone's crossing, sometimes I wonder what would happen if I just chose to stay there. It is such a crap attitude, they take their bikes even for their own supermarket shopping, 4 blocks away, I mean, walk. I swear I saw someone, not someone, several times, several people, biking with a bike at each side to save time, I'm sure they were taking it somewhere else, or holding tables, chairs, suitcases, you don't know whether to congratulate them for managing or to tell them they need help.
But yes, you have a point about their rudeness, the service here on most restaurants and cafés is appealing, no napkins unless YOU MADE YOUR CASE FOR MORE THAN ONE, having to wave HEY I WANT TO ORDER, and no, I'M NOT LEAVING THE SECOND I'M FINISHED. Amsterdam is the worst in that regard. To be honest, I hate that city and avoid it like pest in between spring-summer. From autumn forward it can be managed since there are fewer tourists strolling around, thank God.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
LOL cutting in line is like the national pastime of the Netherlands! One of the MAIN reasons I'm glad I left and will never live there again. It was so bad, it was everywhere....it was especially frustrating when you had been on vacation and are lining up at the airport to go back to NL...and Dutch would try to cut in front of you....
I remember calling out a couple on it at Paris airport...they were super offended and said 'It's just one meter!!!'...yeah it's just one meter, why the need to cut in front of me then?!?! Like someone said here, it seems to be about dominance, it's really strange, you have to call them out on it. And usually that was their reaction, like: oh it's just 1 spot, just 1 meter, yeah, but you are SOOOO special and superior that that 'just 1 spot' is too much for you!
Ok-Owl3957@reddit
Dutch people love cutting lines, I don’t know where you’re living 😅
Source: I am Dutch, living in the Netherlands (again).
John_weak_the_third@reddit
Maybe you live in the premium version of Netherlands, Dutch people do this all the time where I am
PreparationShort9387@reddit
That must be a big city thing.
bigopossums@reddit
All of this plus the obsession with telling people they are doing something wrong
AllPintsNorth@reddit
Even when you’re not doing anything wrong. They make up their own rule on the spot and yell at you for that.
Especially women over 60. I don’t know what happens to the women over here after menopause, but fuck… they are all so miserable and viscous.
SnorkBorkGnork@reddit
I am still traumatized from my last trip to Germany where my wife and I went to a yarn shop and got a button out of a drawer we wanted to buy. When I tried to pay (I also had multiple skeins of very expensive yarn) she took everything from me and put it behind the counter and explained in the most pedantic and condescending way how it was not allowed for us to open the drawer (there was no notification that it wasn't allowed and the drawer was in the middle of the store and not locked) and gave some passive agressive remarks about my English ("did you notice you are here in Germany and not in England") and my choice of yarn (I like to knit lace, she thought I wouldn't have the skills or know what to do with it).
If I lived there and this was the only yarn shop I would search for a new hobby.
BirdyHowdy@reddit
I once took a subway in Munich, Germany, and the exit was closed. I asked the German woman next to me for the reason.
She said that the exit is closed because the Queen of England is visiting Munich and is shown the subway "so that she can learn from us".
So loftily.
Civil-Nose-9405@reddit
Yep, typical German behavior.
Omeluum@reddit
I feel like all the niche hobby shops in Germany are run by the Reddit comment section if the average age was 50+. Many non-profits too, like animal rescues. Just full of people who don't have much of a life outside of their hobby, derive their entire self-worth from being "experts" on it, think they know better than everyone else, and will be super condescending and rude. And half the time they're not even right.
Affectionate_Law7117@reddit
Bro this 100%. They take their hobbies in Germany wayy too seriously and ontop of that gatekeep the heck out of them!
SnorkBorkGnork@reddit
Yeah I like to support local shops but not if there is some jerk behind the counter.
missesthecrux@reddit
I walked up to the counter of a completely empty train station ticket hall where the two unoccupied attendants told me I needed to go back to the entrance, take a number and wait to be called. Which they watched me do, then called my number. A lot of stuff like that happened in Germany.
SpeedySparkRuby@reddit
Reminds me of my experience in Florence with a nutty shop owner of a work clothes store. I had to get chef whites for a cooking class I was doing at my university, owner yelled at me for not reading the sign when I made the mistake of trying to enter her shop on her lunch break. Ended up going to Bolonga to a similar store and the man who owned was very sweet and helpful with what I needed.
dnn278@reddit
When they themselves follow absolutely ZERO rules when they come to Spain. As someone who works in Tourism... the idea that Germans are rules-followers seems foreign to me.
acappella-pasta@reddit
God, yes, this. The hypocrisy is flabbergasting!
amagiciannamed_gob@reddit
I sat next to a German couple on the Shinkansen in Japan who watched videos out loud on their computer and spoke to each other so loudly they were borderline yelling. The rest of the train car was dead silent, and after a couple of minutes a lot of the other Japanese passengers turned to look at them like “wtf”. A different tourist sitting near them told them to be quiet.
It was actually so insane to me. If someone had been flagrantly breaking rules and being a nuisance in public in Germany they would’ve gotten scolded or yelled at, but when they’re abroad they act like they own the place and can do whatever they want.
ElPato2424@reddit
I'm in Mexico, and every time we hear about a tourist breaking the rules and climbing on the ancient pyramids or doing other prohibited things, the tourist is almost always German.
amagiciannamed_gob@reddit
Some guy was on the news recently for bringing a huge speaker onto a subway train in Tokyo and blasting music out of it. This would be a no-no on any subway system in the world I am pretty sure, but it’s “put it on the news” tier unheard of behavior in Japan. Sure enough, the low life scum that did it was German.
Necessary_Bad4037@reddit
Playing loud music where you shouldn’t makes someone a low life scum? Wow, so dramatic
SeanBourne@reddit
Found the German
Necessary_Bad4037@reddit
Lmao definitely not
Athingwithfeathers2@reddit
I'm surprised it wasn't one our idiot "influencers" from the US.
anarmyofJuan305@reddit
Loud music in the Bogotá equivalent of the subway is quite common and often they put on pretty cool spontaneous shows. NY I think has that too
amagiciannamed_gob@reddit
As a New Yorker people do it here but only tourists find it enjoyable.
anarmyofJuan305@reddit
Latinos on average tend to have a higher tolerance for loud public stunts
afurtherdoggo@reddit
Germans are typically super modal people, meaning they hard switch between modes of behaviour, and this sort of thing is likely "vacation mode" german. It's the hard switch between no-fun-work-time and "now we make party" insane cocaine and ecstacy until 9am.
_pvilla@reddit
This. I live in a very touristy Spanish city and while I get annoyed at loud Italians/Brazilians and unaware Chinese/Americans, the worst are always from the UK or Germany.
EquivalentTea60@reddit
As a British person I can only apologise. Unfortunately there is a certain class of people from the UK that religiously head to Spain every year. They take over these small touristy towns and act like they own them. Most of them are absolute knob heads while they are in the UK as well. We can only thank you for taking them off our hands for a few weeks.
SkepticAnarchist@reddit
As an immigrant in Xixona Spain, I can confirm the rudest ones are UK expats or German tourists. They deliberately get over the top; touch historical features or berates the locals. I’m ashamed as an American, and am shocked it’s not my American counterparts being this way. But most Americans coming over right now feels so ashamed, embarrassed and disgraced.
Personal_Benefit_402@reddit
Any time I run into a German in the outdoors, I tend to go the other way, as they always seem hell bent on doing something crazy or unadvisable, risking getting themselves or others lost, injured, or killed.
stupicklles@reddit
Tbh I feel like Germans view vacation as a time to “not follow any rules” and they take that shit to the extreme
tacotrapqueen@reddit
Truly, I'm an American who lived in Prague. Entire bus loads of Germans would come in daily and I've never encountered ruder, more poorly behaved tourists/people in my life! They made Americans seem like saints.
Team503@reddit
Funny, the worst ones here are always the Brits.
delicious_fanta@reddit
Maybe that’s why they have to keep reminding each other to behave back in Germany XD
Grand-Goose-1948@reddit
Love your user name delicious_fanta. Fun fact, Fanta was invented in Germany. I wouldn’t move there either, no matter how delicious their soda is.
TabithaC20@reddit
LOL
ADeuxMains@reddit
Ack yes. I had the misfortune of dealing with some in Malaga.
Sour-Scribe@reddit
Some years ago I was visiting the Anza Borrego area
Felonious_Minx@reddit
Beautiful area! Glad you made it :)
Daidrion@reddit
That's not about following the rules but about dominance and superiority through pointing out any slight things that other do "incorrectly".
Synechocystis@reddit
Ah yes, the finger-wagging. Infuriating.
berryplum@reddit
Oh god. This!
B3stThereEverWas@reddit
I couldn’t upvote this fast enough
To be clear the pickiest people I’ve ever met weren’t even Germans (a lot eastern europeans were pretty bad) but the Germans were by far the most notoriously bad for it.
Honestly some of them were just fucking insufferable. Sorry to insult any Germans but I’ve met enough of you to draw a pretty reasonable stereotype.
It explains the country, it’s culture and why it’s in the state its in now. Industrial excellence but in old world industries that seem allergic to change and trying new things. It makes sense Germanys arrogance and stubbornness would be it’s undoing in the 21st century.
Public-Guidance-9560@reddit
yeah, they're great at good old mechanical engineering...analogue bits and pieces, perfectly machined. But absolutely woeful at the digital stuff and software. I have to use a lot of German automotive stuff in my job and the software side in particular is just headaches. It's like programming evolved in a vacuum there.
B3stThereEverWas@reddit
Perfect example of this; Volkswagens failure in EV’s.
Today’s EVs are less about the electric motor and more about the software. The tech stack and everything from the operating system to the car’s brain defines how modern EVs drive, charge, and connect.
VW set up a subsidiary called CARIAD to try and compete with Tesla, Rivian, BYD etc. and it was typically German; bloated, hierarchical and massively overcomplicated. They sunk $8 billion into CARIAD and after years of constant delays all they got out of it was a slow, buggy piece of dog shit tech that was well behind everyone else. They’ve now ended up scuttling the whole thing and have to spend another $5B partnering with Rivian so they can use their tech stack instead.
reddit33764@reddit
Lol. Imagine being an hvac contractor in Florida and having a bunch of older German pilots as customers. They were very nice, great with payments, and sent more people my way, but huge PITA. One of them called me several times because of a drop of condensation on his emergency pan in the attic. I had to tell him to call another company, and if they said anything was wrong, I'd pay the service call and whatever repair they made , no questions asked. I only heard back from him the following year when he asked for regular maintenance.
expanding_man@reddit
Ha. I was in Scotland for a couple months by myself for work and decided to take a weekend bus tour to the Isle of Skye. I ended up sitting next to some German guy on the bus who wanted to debate US foreign policy for hours. I’m like I just want to stare out the window at the beautiful countryside and this guy would rather use that time to tell me how disappointed he was with Obama.
B3stThereEverWas@reddit
Perfect example of this; Volkswagens failure in EV’s.
Today’s EVs are less about the electric motor and more about the software. The tech stack and everything from the operating system to the car’s brain defines how modern EVs drive, charge, and connect.
VW set up a subsidiary called CARIAD to try and compete with Tesla, Rivian, BYD etc. and it was typically German; bloated, hierarchical and massively overcomplicated. They sunk $8 billion into CARIAD and after years of constant delays all they got out of it was a slow, buggy piece of dog shit tech that was well behind everyone else. They’ve now ended up scuttling the whole thing and have to spend another $5B partnering with Rivian so they can use their tech stack instead.
Techters@reddit
Your post is not in the correct bin and it's ruining the neighborhood.
HuntsWithRocks@reddit
My view on that is it’s part of their culture. Almost like a civic duty or something. Funnily, I don’t think Germans perceive it as rude when someone points their own mistakes out, in general. So, they dish it out but can also take it. It’s still off putting, but not founded in the jerky motivations it comes across as. It’s still annoying lol.
I find that Germans, while seeming cold and standoffish, are actually very hospitable. I’ve found, being able to butcher enough German to find my way, order food & tell jokes with bad grammar has me at a level where I can kindly approach a German and ask for help and they are very helpful.
If I trap them in a conversation, they won’t bail and often actually open up. I dunno, there are jerks everywhere and cultural behaviors can be off putting, but if there doesn’t feel like malice is in it, I kinda hang on and enjoy the ride.
Sagybagy@reddit
Married to a half German. German mother and father was stationed there. MIL is very much German. Got stationed there myself for awhile and loved it but not as a forever home. Just always felt off. Great place to visit though.
SpeedySparkRuby@reddit
Like the neighbor who'll go through the bins and then complain to you about putting stuff in the wrong bin. Even though that looks insane to most normal people but not Germans.
Modullah@reddit
TIL my 7 yr old is German…
IAmAGoodFella@reddit
Worked with a German expat for a little while and HOLY SHIT can confirm
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Me too. However he did not last long, he was always taking sick leaves and days off constantly, getting off 30-20m earlier almost every day. And it's honestly what I've seen other Germans do as well.
Artemystica@reddit
Given your review here, I'm shocked that Japan feels better.
I'm living in Japan currently, and I've been had eye rolls and insults, lying about things (like there is no room in the restaurant kind of thing), and of course, the inflexibility by governments, medical institutions, and private companies is wild.
Given that your review of Germany matches my personal experience living in Japan, I'm curious to hear what you think makes one an okay choice for you, while the other is a poor choice.
alloutofbees@reddit
The problems I have had in Japan are largely institutional and not personal whereas the ones in Germany have been personal more than institutional. I lived in Japan for a year and just got back from my fifteenth visit, and I feel like you actually get some decent upsides from the rule-following that balance out the downsides. I have social anxiety and Japan is very comfortable for me because expectations around behaviour in public are so predictable. The downsides as a foreigner I've found can mostly be anticipated and worked around to some extent. This has not been the case in Germany, where I've had way more negative experiences in a small fraction of the amount of time spent in the country. In Japan people love to do things by the book and that can be very annoying when the book makes no sense, but there's rarely the sense of one-upmanship and weaponized conformity that I've experienced in Germany. In Germany there are a lot of people who are not interested in following the rules but are extremely interested in policing others relentlessly and aggressively. There seems to be no interest whatsoever in saving face, not causing a scene, smoothing things over, etc. and that's something that I find makes an enormous difference. The average types of rudeness are just on two totally different levels for me. I also have a lot more fun and friendly interactions when I'm out and about in Japan than I do in Germany, so that helps too.
acappella-pasta@reddit
Sense of one-upmanship and weaponized conformity --- my god, couldn't have put it better myself. Yes to all this!!!
Weebgaze@reddit
Hey, interesting point about your social anxiety there. I can relate to this between the US and Sweden (I grew up a dual citizen).
Sweden is hell for me on the exact same point. I just do not know what to expect in encounters and it freaks me out. Do you acknowledge someone or not; when do you do it? All this is random with the exception of like inner city Stockholm and busy main streets. And people will snoop all up in your business and the conformity culture is huge.
In Sweden I can decide that okay, I'm just gonna be in my own world and without even making eye contact people will say hello in passing or when I'm entering a shop or w/e. Or I can decide that okay, I'll do like when I'm in the US and greet people if we make eye contact - I can then get completely stone walled instead like I'm a fucking weirdo.
In the US I know what to expect almost anywhere, which is manageable even if I don't like the very outgoing cultural expectations. But I can at least just do the bare minimum and then let the other party take the reins any time.
No_Shame318@reddit
Well said, this is a perfect analysis. As someone who has spent time in both countries, I totally agree with all of the above.
amagiciannamed_gob@reddit
I think a lot of these people just can’t understand Japanese so they wouldn’t know if they were being insulted, and Japanese are more non-confrontational. Whereas Germans overall have good English and will tell you to your face that you are breaking some rule or other
acappella-pasta@reddit
I couldn't have put it better myself. I've lived in 5 different countries across Europe and Asia and visited 30+countries, and Germany was also a hard no for me. Like you said, people being incredibly mean for no reason, and being super inflexible too in general whilst being insufferable about it. When I tried to get people to do their jobs that they were being paid for it felt like I was asking them for favours. They were so abrasive - you hit the nail on the head when you said it only takes one arsehole to ruin your day and it happens in Germany at a far higher frequency than any other country.
I got out and moved to the UK earlier this year and am SO much happier. I hope you get out soon too!
RedFox_SF@reddit
I also find, from experience, that Germans will do everything to not do the things they need to do at work. They will do everything in order for others to do their jobs. They are also rude like I’ve never seen before and will do everything to save every penny they can. Freebie? There’s a German there for sure. Germany for me is also a hard no!
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Yup, I will NEVER work with Germans again....have had several tortuous experiences with them. Everything is just so much more painful than it needs to be.
RedFox_SF@reddit
It begs the question of who is actually responsible for delivering German quality when it comes to engineering - and I guess we all know the answer: all the foreigners that are on the background!
Educational_Word_633@reddit
lol
Bodoblock@reddit
I was with a friend in Berlin. She accidentally bumped into a young German woman in her 20s. My friend immediately apologized and said, "Oh excuse me, I'm so sorry". The German woman responded "Fuck you, you stupid bitch" and stormed off in a hurry. Bizarre interaction that really soured us on Germany for the day.
RedFox_SF@reddit
Well, I would say Berlin is a world of its own. Some of the weirdest people I’ve seen in my life was in Berlin 😅 but yeah, I’ve heard some pretty racist and condescending stuff from Germans. Generally speaking, they don’t come across as very trustworthy…
reverevee@reddit
Very much so. My sister was in Germany for a layover. She hated it so much during those few hours she considered changing her return flight.
Languagepro99@reddit
Would rather live in Germany than the US. I’m trying to leave the US after college. I’d gladly have those issues over living in the US .
bluecoast_sail@reddit
This sounds surprisingly similar to my experience with French people, particularly admins
Master_Pattern_138@reddit
I wish I could say something better, since I'm half-German (farther back than my immigrant Polish holocaust survivor father, however), but I'm an American expat in New Zealand, PR, and bought a sailboat from a German here a couple of years ago. First, I am no novice (sailing over 30 years, owned 6 sailboats before) but engines and particularly this type aren't my forte, and the seller is a marine diesel mechanic in the harbour where I bought my boat. Yes, got a survey (it was his buddy, ended up he wasn't an actual surveyor), also, the seller lied up and down, engine was toast, took him to court here, lied some more, court referee was a good ol' boy, and despite my copious documentation, let him off. 100% wanker. Shit talking this guy all over New Zealand every chance I get, cost me a fortune, and over a year not sailing.
spicytomatilloo@reddit
Just to add on, if you are POC, living in German is ROUGH. Expect to experience anything from microaggressions to being verbally assaulted on the streets.
amircruz@reddit
x2 OP
snbdmliss@reddit
Currently dealing with an employer that lied to me about benefits and pay here, not once but a few times from different people, and now here and the bait and switch is hardcore. Debating leaving already
WestDeparture7282@reddit
I see the Netherlands and Germany overlap a bit
tvpsbooze@reddit
I am PoC living in Germany and the part about 'actively mean' is so true. They literally hiss when walking around.
Techters@reddit
Yeah Germans don't have sarcasm they just lie to you then make fun of you for believing them.
Andybrs@reddit
"Too many encounters with people who aren't just rude or cold but are actively mean."
100%!!! You will always find some at work or neighborhood. They don't like to help or hate when you ask for help.
They will know how you could solve a problem but will never tell you. They would rather see you struggling and suffering.
Relative_External788@reddit
All of this
Big_Job9386@reddit
There are also the brits who have this mean, dry wit engrained in their culture (just watch Downtown Abbey), they can also appear pretty cold and reserved but I still struggle to understand why interacting with them doesn't make me depressed but i rather enjoy it
amagiciannamed_gob@reddit
Brits enjoy banter, “taking the piss” and roasting people. It’s generally light hearted, a way to break the ice with strangers and build trust. It’s hardly ever done with actual rude intent. Germans are just flat out rude without being jokey about it.
austin06@reddit
My well traveled Aunt who spent time in some rough locations including Columbia in the 70s was screamed at by a German bus driver in such a shocking way to her that she would never go back again.
Adorable_Chapter_138@reddit
I'm German and I feel this so much 🥲 it's high time I find me a new home abroad...
chiree@reddit
Germans living outside of Germany very much exercise their new social freedom.
ChetoChompipe@reddit
Been living in Germany 15 years. Weather sucks here. People are always in a bad mood. And people are not nice. The only reason for me being here is a well paying job.
BirdyHowdy@reddit
This is also my experience. In the back of my mind, I always see myself packing my bags in Germant again and looking for some friendly warm country instead.
bostonkarl@reddit
Have you ever thought of moving to Austria? The second happiest German-speaking people on earth.
ChetoChompipe@reddit
Haha I’ve thought about it. I have experience with Austrians. They are just as rude as Germans. I was interested in Vienna and saw some videos on YouTube from foreigners. They all said that even after 10 years of living in Vienna they didn’t have a single Austrian friend 😂. That’s is simply …. no social skills in German speaking countries. I am already looking where to move abroad. But definitely not a German speaking country.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
May I ask, when you started feeling the bad mood of the people? I got the sense after about 6 years, firts year was wonderful, second year was shock (I got more skills, carrer growth and enemies), after Corona was ok.
ChetoChompipe@reddit
I come from Latin America so they always have been quite rude, but after about 5 years is where I really realized it’s very German to be rude. And I know many people will say it’s another way of doing things. I can tell you no. I have met many very nice and polite Germans. But sadly the majority are very rude.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
5 years seems to be a standart time for expats to understand what they like or not in a country :)
nachtzeit@reddit
3 in Paris XD
AllPintsNorth@reddit
Same… the sheen started to wear off after year 5…
AlwaysBagHolding@reddit
Man, seems easier to just move to Ohio.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
You would have to pay me 500k per year to convince me to live in Germany. I'll take 60k a year in fucking Florida or 30k a year in Italy than anything less than 500k a year in Germany 😂
wheel_wheel_blue@reddit
If I can ask. In what industry are you?
ChetoChompipe@reddit
Engineering
BirdyHowdy@reddit
German mentality is not very friendly, particularly to foreigners.
BagofGawea@reddit
I saw someone else on Reddit say this, that in Germany it’s not that everyone is a raging ahole, it’s just more acceptable to be a raging ahole. And not to pile onto the German hate here, but yes. The unfortunate part is that these are the people you have to deal with to open a bank account, register your address, get a driving license, get a visa, at work, order food at a restaurant, etc. You never know when you go somewhere if you’re getting one of the lovely Germans that’s friendly and charming or their all-too-common counterpart, the raging butthole. And don’t let them fool you with that “we’re just direct” nonsense, people are straight up mean here.
tripletruble@reddit
I wonder if I wrote that or if someone had the exact same observation as me. It's like 10 to 20% of the population behaves in ways that are shockingly insufferable - behaviors that would result in shock and ostracization elsewhere. In Germany, for whatever reason, these behaviors are tolerated and it enables the worst people to spread their misery upon everyone they encounter
acappella-pasta@reddit
I wouldn't just say 10-20 percent, as a visible minority that ratio shot up to more like 70-80 percent.
BagofGawea@reddit
You’re spot on, it’s about 10-20% depending on the day and the weather. I’ve had the same thought, why aren’t more of the bullies confronted for their behavior? People tend to just stare instead of actually say anything
Adventurous_Lab914@reddit
I don't live in Germany but in Austria, which is close to the same. And the culture is unbearable. They are elitist, I felt a little bit of racism, if you don't speak German, you're doomed. There is no social life, no good restaurants (compared to Portugal), and the food is awful (only dairy, processed meat, no fresh fish, etc). There are taxes for everything. When I receive a letter in the mailbox or by email, my legs shake, thinking that it might be a bill falling out of nowhere.
I'm always afraid of being yelled at for doing anything wrong without noticing it. Apart from that, I must recognize that it is a country with a good economic system (and so on..) for its citizens. Austria and, I guess, Germany too, are built for Austrians/Germans. So, as an expat, I have concluded that this is not the right country for me, and I'm moving next year.
Glad-Pea9524@reddit
That is exactly me in germany
proof_required@reddit
Yeah even after living here for almost 10 years this is what makes me most anxious. It has already happened few times that they screw up something in billing and you get a Mahnung out of nowhere. I try to pay bills as much as possible upfront but still you never know.
Adventurous_Lab914@reddit
Just got the electricity bill (the yearly one, where they do all that math to see if you have to receive or pay) and I have to pay 🤣
yegegebzia@reddit
This specific thing is quite an unnerving lottery. I never understood why not just send monthly bills based on the electricity consumption, so that you could understand in advance that you spend too much electricity.
Adventurous_Lab914@reddit
True! In Portugal, we pay for what we consume. We can even provide the electricity consumption numbers to make the value more accurate. But nowadays, the electricity meters (I don't know how to say in English, the machines that measure the electricity) automatically send the consumption to the electricity company. There are no surprises at the end of the year…
Affectionate_Law7117@reddit
Briefkastenschmerz we call it about the letters in the mailbox
Adventurous_Lab914@reddit
I love that there is a word for everything 🤣
Affectionate_Law7117@reddit
Haha yes. But sadly its a true one! Since moving back to the USA, I only have to check my mailbox once a week. No court - Tax notices or any other unexpected bills. So much more peaceful
TurkMcGill@reddit
My wife and I (Americans) lived in Paris for two years, and then Berlin for five years. We LOVED living in Paris... we *liked* living in Berlin.
Here are a few random thoughts:
- Paris feels like a different world, Berlin feels like a cosmopolitan US city where there are a lot of accents
- We needed to learn some French to get by in Paris, almost everyone in Berlin speaks decent English
- The food in Berlin was great, but it's very very limited. Paris gave us the best meals of our lives (multiple times)
- The people in Paris were actually nicer and less judgmental than the people in Berlin (counter to expectations)
Just one more note about German culture... I worked indirectly with a woman for three years and we even had lunch a few times. One day I wanted to get her advice about something and I said, "We're friends, right? Could I ask you a question?"
She replied, "No, we're not friends. We're work acquaintances." She said it nicely but she saw the shocked look on my face. She said, "Sorry, this has come up before with another American I worked with... In Germany a 'friend' is someone you have known all your life. I don't have any friends at this office... just work acquaintances."
I found that interesting. Germans also tend to be very private, whereas us Americans blab about every damn thing on our minds. ;-)
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
I find that definition of friendship really small-minded and imo outdated in the contemporary world. 'People you've known all your life'....this can only come from the mind of someone who grew up their whole life/formative years in the same place.
In America, I had lived in 4 different states by age 17....not to mention living in different cities in some of those states.
It's such a self-limiting belief, that somehow your person and life experience are sealed off by age X to new friendships and close personal connections. Depressing (and 'stale mentality') to me honestly.
Rusiano@reddit
That is so true. Also these days it's almost a necessity sometimes to move for university/work, so that outdated logic of friendship doesn't work anymore
WestDeparture7282@reddit
I can't even fathom what it would be like to have the same friends from kindergarten, in my 30s. I feel like we are supposed to grow and discover new things and if an entire country is really full of people who stayed friends with the same group since childhood I would see it as stubborn and anxious behavior. Afraid of change and trying new things.
_predator_@reddit
As a German the comments in this thread make me super sad. But I get most of them.
Educational_Word_633@reddit
Happy people dont go online and write about how awful their life in country x is.
Just keep that in mind.
acthrowawayab@reddit
Literally just a hate thread. If it was about any other country chances are you'd get called ignorant and racist.
Educational_Word_633@reddit
feel u
tripletruble@reddit
As a former resident, I do think they are exaggerated even if there is some truth to them
No-Discussion-25@reddit
As an American, don’t be sad lol. I’d gladly switch places with you.
R0GERTHEALIEN@reddit
As an expat living in Germany - it's the people. In general, they are cold and mean. The laws are repressive, healthcare is a joke (unless you have private insurance), the train stations are covered in drugs, homeless, and piss, there is almost no childcare available, the trains are the laughing stock of europe, the pension system is crumbling as the population ages while no one has kids cas of all of the above. O and yeah the people are just mean.
There are some good things about it tho, but it can be a tough place to feel welcome and live your own life.
PreparationShort9387@reddit
As a German, I don't perceive Germans as mean and cold. I think people just interact with the population of the big cities.
MeggatronNB1@reddit
Why not test that out. Tomorrow go and try meet new people/strangers, tell them you have just moved to Germany from USA. See how many receive you with kindness.
No-Discussion-25@reddit
That actually sounds like a fascinating social experiment! Do we have any lovely Germans who feel inspired to volunteer to do this for like a day?! Report back your findings please lol I’m so serious! I‘ll be back in Germany later this summer, I’d happily buy a couple lagers for any German brave enough to do a crazy social experiment like this.
Educational_Word_633@reddit
Before reading it in this thread I (German) have never heard of this before, ever.
PreparationShort9387@reddit
That experiment is nonsense because Germans quickly detect the German accent and will treat you like a creep. Rightfully.
MeggatronNB1@reddit
I didn't know that. Ok, so can you suggest a good experiment that a German can do to see if Germans are friendly on the whole or if it is more rare to find a friendly German?
c0mbucha@reddit
Lol you should def not make life choices based on some random people here where likely they just love to vent and might in part be the actual problem themselves
also in every large german city theres a lot of subscenes and completely different types of people and if you join some clubs or activities or art projects you meet way different people
meloriot@reddit
i just want to say- the people that are likely to comment on here are not likely to have had great experiences. of course it's all valid still but don't let a comment section keep you from exploring places you enjoyed.
DaveR_77@reddit
I think they are fine once you know them or if you meet them abroad. But it's the random store and service workers that are the issue.
Born_Emu7782@reddit
Because German people are nototisouly extremely cold and unfriendly and that isn't insignifiant
Material conditions only take you so far
Apotropaic-Pineapple@reddit
The material conditions aren't that great. No AC in 40'c heat.
Educational_Word_633@reddit
Extreme outliers are what you are building your point on? Okay I guess lol.
Born_Emu7782@reddit
40C it's a few days a year at most idk what you are babbling about
Healthcare walkable cities bike lane and clean air are more important
tripletruble@reddit
Germany has terrible air lmao
Born_Emu7782@reddit
Not at all. It's green on IQ air
tripletruble@reddit
You cannot just take a single snap shot in time to assess average air quality. Today is great conditions: Some wind and plenty of sun so coal demand is minimal. But during cold dark winter days Germany and especially Poland burn a significant amount of coal. Also, Germany is still a pretty industrial country with lots of manufacturing related emissions. It's densely populated, surrounded by other densely populated countries, and it is not on the ocean.
See here for annual average AQI scores
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-geographical-distribution-of-air-quality-in-Europe-Note-The-color-scale-is-set-such_fig1_381312470
Born_Emu7782@reddit
They dont take just snapshot they have historical ranking as well
Anyway quality of life is quite good in Germany on average never heard any body saying otherwise
Especially compared to the US so I won't argue with petty redditors
Attention_WhoreH3@reddit
The bike lanes are crap in Germany compared to The Netherlands.
The air sucks too! I visit Aachen and Cologne every 4-6 weeks. Lots of cars in the centres, choking everyone.
Born_Emu7782@reddit
Every country has crap bike lanes compared to Netherlands but its still pretty good compared to the rest of the world , so it's not a valid argument
That's what you say but on average again Germany ranks pretty well on air quality with most cities being green barring a few industrial areas
Attention_WhoreH3@reddit
“ not a valid argument ”
It’s a very valid argument. Germany’s transport infrastructure is stuck in the 1990s-2000s.
Many German cities are really grotty. Bonn, Bamberg and Koblenz are nice. Aachen, Ulm and others are okay. Hamburg and Cologne have serious issues with homelessness, dirt, trash and so on. My first visit to Cologne, within 5 minutes of leaving the train station, I saw a homeless guy “satisfying himself” in public
Born_Emu7782@reddit
Moving goalpost You talked about bike lanes and. Iw whine about public transport
German public transport was fine and better than most countries for me
Idk where you come from but homeless guys is common in a lot of western capitals so again not particularly shocking to me
pizzamann2472@reddit
Not even, the majority of German cities has never reached 40 °C since the beginning of measurements in the 1800s. And for those regions that did experience this, it was mostly a once-in-decades heatwave. The average daytime maximum is usually around 25 °C during summer with depending on exact location, maybe 2 weeks exceeding 30 °C, 35 °C is in many places and years not even reached once. Which is precisely the reason AC is not very widely spread.
Might get worse in coming years due to global warming but I guess AC will then also become more popular.
tripletruble@reddit
I agree it does not get to 40 but there are still thousands of deaths attributable to heat every year. Without AC in stone homes, it gets plenty hot indoors to do people in https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9639227/
toothless_budgie@reddit
The exact unnecessary rudeness being discussed elsewhere in this thread. How ironic.
Born_Emu7782@reddit
I didn't say that it was bad I'm just saying this why expats might be unhappy although I think its more the coldness than the rudeness
Spanish are rude yet warm
Still I prefer this than American ass kissing
MonkeyNewss@reddit
Plenty of countries have that without the rude people and outdated systems
Big-Conversation6393@reddit
I think Germany used to be popular immigration destination until 10 years ago. After covid, inflation, housing crisis I dont think its that popular anymore. There is still a believe in South Europe that Germany is the holy gral for quality life. Im from there and I never wanted to move there expect for Berlin (which is not Germany at all).
JoshWestNOLA@reddit
I've watched some videos about people from other countries who have moved to Germany. They usually start out by saying that even though Germany is definitely not for everyone, there are some things they like about it. I think most people are looking for more than just "can be okay if you ignore all the bad things."
Legitimate-Action245@reddit
I worked for several multinational companies representing Germany.
While Germany is the economic heart of Europe, the work culture feels restrictive to most people outside of Germany. Work quality is still above average (conditionally of course) compared to places like Spain and Italy, however, there is not a big small talk culture or enough emphasis on social activities. Spanish and Italian co-workers got really pissed at us being uptight about deadlines. Frech are also more chill. Everyone respects Germans for their achievements, but they'd prefer not to live like a German.
Brilliant-Salt-5829@reddit
I spent around 9 months in Germany, loved it. Compared to Sweden people are friendly and the culture can be lively in parts (think beer gardens). I love the lush green nature and fairytale towns.
I think different places suit a different mentality and Germany is not for everyone like Spain is not for everyone.
I also have lived in Spain and really enjoyed it too but in a different way- obviously I loved the weather and med culture. I honestly found Spaniards quite argumentative though which kind of drained me but not to the extent that it got in the way of my enjoyment of the culture.
InterstellarJester@reddit
My impression is that it's easier to get visas in some of those countries. For non-EU expats, it can sometimes be tough to get a visa in Germany.
proof_required@reddit
Not really! If you find a job in Germany, visa isn't the difficult part. Although these days finding a job from outside of Germany without almost native level German proficiency is almost impossible.
It just doesn't have a good reputation for being great at "integrating" immigrants combined with high taxes, not great weather and tough language.
Particular-System324@reddit
Fellow Indian in DE. What took you from the NL to DE, if I may ask? I thought NL was much friendlier with easier integration. Are you planning to get out once you get citizenship?
proof_required@reddit
I was fired and unemployed. Couldn't find a job in NL since I was very early in my career. I already have German citizenship but not really have any future plan to move somewhere else.
Particular-System324@reddit
Ah I see. Can I ask what you've found here that keeps you attached to living in Germany despite having citizenship already? You did mention ""integrating" immigrants combined with high taxes, not great weather and tough language." and these are some of the issues I am struggling with.
Or is it more of a "I don't like it here but moving somewhere else is too much effort and I have to start from scratch"?
proof_required@reddit
Yeah pretty much this. Just unsure how the career prospects would look like in other parts of Europe. I do speak better Spanish than German but job market isn't great there. I would be actually more open to move to UK because of lack of language barrier, but it's not so easy these days.
Particular-System324@reddit
How about Switzerland? No visa required (but hard to get a job I guess).
Switzerland and UK / Ireland are prominent among my exit options.
InterstellarJester@reddit
Right. Getting a job is a part of getting a visa (if you're going for that type of visa).
proof_required@reddit
Well you have even Chancenkarte these days which is basically a job seeking visa.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
I'm not sure how many others actually cared about this, but the main reason why I didn't move to Germany was that it seemed impossible to make friends with locals even if one learned the native language. I would feel very defeated, as if I wasted a lot of time and "emotional" investment, if that were to be my situation after living in some place for five years learning the native language.
Particular-System324@reddit
Have you learned Polish in the meantime? Do you feel Poland is better to befriend the locals as a visible foreigner?
alinarulesx@reddit
Because it’s a bad country to live in- I would literally choose any other country in the EU over it.
Snoo-71717@reddit
Just a quick question but, even the Balkans? I feel nobody talks as much about the Balkans because not as many people try to move there, people go to Germany or even France because their economies are at least on paper top notch. This applies to third world and first world people.
Then again, you could have a car and drive around, also having a German in your house growing up will help as well, or a Bavarian Jewish person, I know from experience, but I agree with a lot of people in this sub, the problem is that you can get such negative experiences in the Balkans as well, but nobody really talks as much about it because you have a nice online presence of people either hating on their country and it being in the Balkans, and doing so in their language mostly,
And then the people who check the statistics for the world's biggest economies and try their luck there instead of staying in their countries, again, this is a theory of mine based on a throughout observation especially on reddit throughout time.
Overall I still think the US, as it was before MAGA, was the best place to move to if you were accustomed to English, big chances are a lot of people already were because of Hollywood especially, then there is the openness or at least the surface level of openness and the fact that a lot of people are more likely to be of mixed ancestry/mixed race, remember that places like Korea and Japan also exist and they too have a lot in common with European countries give or take, varies by country but you get the idea.
If you like a quiet life in a mid sized city, you learn what me and my wife call "worker's German" so straight to the point, no nonsense gender system and no complications and sophistications in linguistic skills, just the classy, I understand you and I can respond to you clearly and simple, straight to the point, then you're all good.
Also some people from the Balkans may not hate on Germany as much because some already got prepared to environment like Berlin while growing up in places like Bucharest, maybe even Sofia or insert similar city.
- From a mixed trans woman with a mixed background that includes Hebrew and German heritage who grew up in Bucharest \^\^
prodsec@reddit
Culture, red tape, difficult language, weather, history, racism towards non-white people, etc.
MarcusBrody96@reddit
Foreigners in general. If your German is accented, you're gonna have a bad time.
But I have no doubt that non-white people would get it worse.
Particular-System324@reddit
Accented German? Check. Non-white? Check. Biding my time till I get the passport, then I can start looking for exit options.
TunisianVibesOnly@reddit
they are racist
gemmadlou@reddit
For me - the weather. Coming from the UK, I prefer somewhere more warm throughout the year. And I've never known Germany for its good weather. But it appears, based on what you're saying, I'm wrong. And the Spanish rain caught me off-guard this year too.
However, as groceries, I've found Spain really cheap. But I was in a smaller city, so maybe that's why.
Funny_Stock5886@reddit
This is the thing, these people are probably remote workers, or expatriates. Immigrants usually mean they there to settle down and are usually 3rd world people. And Germany is not good for either, because people already told many reasons I agree to.
I'm an Indian guy, I had a young dorm mate, he was from Spain. He didn't like how dull and boring Germany was. He liked Spain better, he said everyone was friendly there. This is Northern Germany, which is even more depressing than other parts.
I had American roommates, 3 in total, 2 men closer to my age, and they didn't seem all that keen to stay back, they were just happy to have finished their Master degree and leave back to USA. 1 girl, I didn't talk much, she was much younger, think young adult, she was experiencing life for the first time outside home. I don't know how she felt.
I have lived in eastern Germany in a small time city which was former DDR 10 years ago, it was super depressing, super hostile to people like me(brown), imagine how it is now. I actually dropped out of that program. It was super hard. I know many people who graduated and moved to some other place. They seem happy either going back to their home countries or changing cities.
Brown people like me from 3rd world seem decently grateful to be here. They seem to be wanting to make a life here, despite the difficulty, but if things are not really bad back home, people don't mind if there is 1st world standards. People from other not so well off European countries do make Germany their home because they are not that successful back home or the salary is decent in here.
I don't think you will get full answers here, it is to be experienced, Germany is not for all, due to various reasons, but Germany is very much a white version of Japan. They want to keep it that way. Homogenous and they really don't like the outsiders even if they speak the language, especially if they look different. And even outsiders who look like Germans don't find it easy.
I will not accuse Germans to be racist. I have accepted that racism is human nature to seeing the other and it won't go away. Call it Stockholm syndrome. I don't see a point fighting it. It is just stupid, but it is what it is.
Gerrard59@reddit
Apt!
I live in Japan and from the responses here, it looks like Germany is truly the white version of Japan. Also, apart from Hokkaido in Northern Japan, it looks like the cold is horrible in Germany.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Very insightful post. I think each day Indians are becoming less impressed with some European countries (and also have read about many Indians leaving the US and preferring to go back and settle in India).
When I was in NL I was desperate to get my permanent residence and remember I had this lovely Indian colleague and he never applied for the residence permit, always stayed on visa, had no intention of staying in NL, it wasn't worth it for him. He moved back to India shortly after.
mmechap@reddit
I've never been a happier traveler than the day I crossed the border leaving Germany into France. So incredibly inhospitable. I felt like I was an annoyance to the entire country.
Athingwithfeathers2@reddit
I temped at a German owned factory in the US. Although I worked directly with American workers, the tradition of demeaning lower ranking workers was apparent. I refused to work there after I found they were being sued for racist practices and screwing over injured workers by our state Attorney General. They had a wopping settlement to payout. The only Germans I ever met & liked were the ones that survived the camps. Growing up around people with numbers tattooed on their forearms traumatized me forever. Watching the xtofascists here in the states is reactivating a lot of childhood nightmares.
ShineStriking3364@reddit
Speaking about living in Berlin. The coldness and unfriendliness of people, shit weather, dirty city, bureacracy, high tax/social contributions, inefficient systems, general rudeness and selfishness of people who think they are superior, are some reasons to name a few
Aggie_Hawk@reddit
Because Germany despite the marketing does not want to be attractive to expats. They have made new efforts to attract high skilled labor but only on paper. Most jobs will only hire German speakers, the main cities are very expensive, and Germans aren’t known for their inclusiveness for foreigners. Not to mention took the language is very difficult. It is sad because it is a wonderful place with much to offer but it’s not an easy place to break into. Before moving to the Netherlands, I spent quite a bit of time researching Germany, applying to jobs, and trying to learn German. Months of effort and I work in a high demand area. Meanwhile I got a job offer in the Netherlands after 1 application and a few weeks.
Adorable_Chapter_138@reddit
Honestly, I don't think it has much to do with foreigners as such. Most of the Germans want order and obedience. And they will defend those concepts by all means. Anything that is out of the ordinary – i.e. threatens their order – is not welcome.
Take me for example. I'm German, but I like to do things differently. I like to try new stuff. I think for myself and I question the status quo. These traits are not welcome here. I can't tell you how often I've heard that I'm not really German. And after many years, I've come to wear the "not German enough" slur with a sense of pride.
Now imagine a foreigner who comes to Germany and has the audacity to not only refuse to leave behind their whole identity, but who dares to take a leap of faith and bring with them new customs, new food and new views on the world. And they don't even speak a native level of German when they arrive here, that would have been the very least thing to do!!
If I were healthy enough, I would leave this country. But, for the time being, I'm stuck here.
Yes, my description was probably overly dramatic. I'm sure there are many successful immigration stories. But it reflects my frustration. I honestly think that the only worthwhile aspect of life here is the social security.
Jescophoto89@reddit
Do you mind if I ask some questions on this? My husband studied abroad there several times (high school and college) and the school system seems like it teaches critical thinking, and is just overall ‘better’ than ours. Here in the US we’re not taught like that, so it makes sense that our population as a whole is lagging in education and ability to think critically, but how does a country with that kind of school system have such stiff thinking/preferences?
Adorable_Chapter_138@reddit
"Seems like" is just the term I would use. The German school system encourages academic success based on (social) classes. If you don't fit the criteria right from the start, you'll be kept at the gates.
The current 3-path system was originally set up before WW1 in the 1870s, if I'm not mistaken, maybe also during the Weimar Republic between 1918 and 1933. Anyway, it's really old and hasn't changed much since.
All children attend the first 4 grades (Grundschule ≈ elementary school) together. By the end of grade 4, all children are evaluated by the likelihood of academic success.
If you've got good grades and comply with the social rules, you'll be sent to Gymnasium until grade 12 or 13. It prepares you for higher education at a university.
If your grades are in the middle range, you get sent to Realschule until grade 10. This will usually prepare you for a vocational training which is comparable to something like trade school.
If your grades are bad because you lack intellect or have either (mental) health or social issues that keep you from performing, you get sent to Hauptschule until grade 9. This degree will usually only give you access to the lowest-income vocational trainings and jobs.
I've come to know a lot of bright minds who were sent to Hauptschule as children because they didn't fit the standard. Because they were creative instead of listening and repeating, were more sensitive instead of suppressing their emotions, and needed stimulation instead of dry lectures. Some of them had abusive or financially unstable families that needed help but weren't provided any. In the end, just a few of them were able to fight their way through an unforgiving system and attend university after all. But even so, they would usually enter the job market much later then their peers.
In general, children with a migration background and/or from low-income families are much more likely to end up in Hauptschule, even if they are smart enough to understand the curriculum of Realschule or Gymnasium.
And that's just the beginning.
Germany doesn't have a nation-wide education system. Every Bundesland (federate state) has its own education laws. I was brought up in Baden-Württemberg and attended Gymnasium there. The overall education and final diploma exams (Abitur) in Baden-Württemberg are the hardest in Germany, so naturally they're the most prestigious. Abitur diplomas from other Bundesländer are "worth less" which reflects in some universities' admission policies.
And really, most of the education in Germany is just front-of-class "listen and repeat". Be compliant. Get moulded into a cog wheel and function for society.
Germany desperately needs to modernise its education system, possible even build a new one from scratch. Scandinavian countries are pioneers in this domain and supposedly have more success in supporting their children during their educational years. Though I would need to see several well-conducted studies about that first.
Jescophoto89@reddit
I hugely appreciate you taking the time of write all this out. My husband is/was very privileged, so I imagine he attended the level of schooling that gave us a pretty surface level, rose tinted version of the system. We considered immigrating to Germany, but ultimately landed on Australia instead. Seeing so many first hand accounts of growing up there I think we’ve made the right call. I hope you can make all the changes in your life you want to.
rr90013@reddit
Is it better in Berlin which is known for being a bit wild (and probably has more expats than elsewhere)?
Adorable_Chapter_138@reddit
Let me try and answer this, but please take this with a grain of salt as I'm neither an expat nor do I live in Berlin.
Yes, Berlin has a lot of expats and immigrants, so if you decide to move there, you'll probably able to build yourself a great international circle of friends. However, I'm not so sure if you'll be able to make a lot of meaningful connections with Germans.
In areas that are highly saturated with migrants, the native population tends to worry more about a perceived culture loss (not always the case, but I think for Berlin this is true). So naturally, natives will likely not be willing to put much effort into accommodating foreigners or even befriend them.
On top of that, the Berlin housing market is atrocious. Rents have spiked, so it's nearly impossible to find decent housing (or so I've heard from friends and colleagues living there). Probably a safer bet would be Southern Germany (Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria). Most of Germany's economy happens down there, it's the richest part of the country, and also the sunniest part.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
I was working from the start with very rude people, but then their ceo leave the company, I've got some carreer boost, up to chief of department, for more than 7 years, passing 3 or 4 new bosses, can you imagine the surprise and "friendship" of the newcomers, till someday I just received the stigma of "pokerface" and being too calm, cold bloded spy, never alowing germans to read my thoughts :).
Adorable_Chapter_138@reddit
"The immigrants are stealing our good paying jobs and we're left with the trash jobs!!"
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
Lösung? Bürgergeld😄
chelco95@reddit
Yup, get the whole " oooh, he is a non German German" all the fucking time.
Was for three years in a communicative fun country. Then back to Germany. Especially in groups and work , people tried soooo hard to get me back in line, stop me from thinking out of the box
Adorable_Chapter_138@reddit
That's why I usually hang out with people of different cultural backgrounds.
The most iconic event I went to was an Iranian private birthday party. A mixture of Iranian and German friends and neighbours was invited. After just one hour the Germans (except me) had successfully isolated themselves to their own corner of the living room, eyeing the rest of the group who were teaching me Middle Eastern dance moves to Middle Eastern music. We had so much fun. :)
Big_Job9386@reddit
You're not being dramatic, you're absolutely right. You don't even need to come to Germany to prove it. Just post smth in English in a German speaking sub. No need to question anything in Germany or vent about the culture. Just post in English. You'll be shocked how many will take it as a personal offense because "Wir reden da Deutsch !!!1!"
Hi-kun@reddit
German here. Just wanted you to know that you missed the punctuation mark after your last sentence.
RedditorsGetChills@reddit
That's interesting, because I spent years trying to get a job in the Netherlands as a designer in tech, with quite a few finals rounds, but no offer. Then I tried here in the US and landed at FAANG twice... At above beginner roles despite being new at that time.
I just for back from a couple of weeks in Amsterdam (with some other cities and Germany thrown in) and it made me want to try again. It's been a few years and I have some big projects done under my belt now. Hopefully it goes better this time, as I would rather be there with a third of the income than here (as long as I can find a place to live).
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Curious, were you living in Europe already when you were applying to NL jobs? I mention this because in my experience some companies will only take you seriously if you are already living in Europe. That's what changed it for me, like you could go do a 1-years master's in Europe/NL...and might have better luck then.
Also, you can live/work in NL with a DAFT visa working as an independent contractor...need to have a business plan and show funds for the business like 5k euro last time I checked, surely more now.
RedditorsGetChills@reddit
I appreciate you digging in more to it!
I was definitely in the US but these are companies that knew that as I was crystal clear in my application cover letter and on my CV that I was US based. I got to the final round 4 times (like 4-5 months for each) and they knew this from before step 1.
I learned about DAFT years ago, and started up a business to make my way there, but while it was just growing, I landed another tech role and haven't touched it since. I think I need to get back to it and find out how much I can make normally, to support myself. It was 4.5k euro last I checked, with word that the 30% ruling was going away the last few years, but it seems to still be there.
While a company would be the safest bet to get in, I feel DAFT would be the safest to stay long term, which is my goal, bar the country completely surprising me and disappointing me in some unexpected way. I've spent most of my adult life abroad, and think I'm used to all that comes with that.
berryplum@reddit
True
Europeaninoz@reddit
I've been downvoted here for saying this before, but here it goes: I really don't think it's wrong to expect someone to speak the language of the country they live in. I've taught languages in several English-speaking countries, and I've lost count of how many teenagers complain about having to learn another language because "everyone speaks English." Years later, those same teenagers move to Germany and complain that it's unwelcoming because no one wants to speak English with them. 😂
jazzyjeffla@reddit
This too! I’ve done the same research and I found even foreign(EU) graduates have a hard time finding work without English.
reverevee@reddit
You know good and well Spain is not normally this rainy, lol
Historical-View647@reddit
I wouldn't say it's not popular, many British expats live there and also not a few Americans. Maybe not as popular as Spain, Portugal or France but it's more popular than Central and Eastern European countries like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Croatia to name a few. And I'd pick either of those over Germany as they offer more in terms of food, many of them are a tad friendlier and some even have better climates to boot.
As to the drawbacks - the main ones are Germany has mostly a bad climate, mostly unfriendly locals, too many rules, too few freedoms, the culture is a bit boring, and to top it all it has a very difficult language and a nation too proud to speak English. Most of its main cities are in boring, flat as a pancake areas. If Danish pronunciation is ignored German is probably the hardest Germanic language of all. The grammar alone is nuts and then you get a mile long compound nouns when a sentence could've done better. It sucks for dyslexic people as many of us can't parse long compound nouns easily.
Nature is beautiful but mostly in the places that border France, Switzerland, the Czech Republic, Austria or the sea/Denmark anyway so if you're going to spend years learning German why not go to Austria or Switzerland instead? Switzerland salaries are higher with lower tax. Austria has a small job market but most cities are cleaner. The nature in both is even more beautiful and more easily accessible even from the big cities. Munich isn't that close to the Alps, compared to Austrian and Swiss cities. Berlin is in the boring Northern European plane, just some lakes around, so why not go to the similarly flat but surrounded by the sea Denmark instead where you're never far away from beautiful beaches?
I would like to add that many towns and cities in Germany aren't exactly beautiful. Ulm and Regensburg sure are very beautiful, but those are sleepy towns with few jobs, even fewer for expats. Augsburg was beautiful but looked a bit dirty for a city of that size in a developed Northern European country. I bet its Polish and Austrian equivalents are spotless in comparison. Dresden is beautiful but too sleepy for a city of that size, feels like a nursing home on weekends compared to Bratislava. Heck, the smaller Salzburg felt livelier than Dresden.
Berlin, Frankfurt, and even Hamburg and Munich aren't exactly cities I'd call beautiful. Their French, Austrian, Swiss, Czech, Danish, Dutch etc. equivalents for sure have more interesting architecture and beauty. It's a culture that has contributed a lot to literature, art, they've made some very nice cars and came up with one of the best dog breeds - GSD. <3 But as an actual place for living it feels too boring, cold and more like being in a work camp than a place where you can enjoy life. A work camp that isn't very clean ironically. I was shocked at the lack of cleanness of their train stations and DB delays when I'm used to Dutch trains. The Netherlands, Denmark and Austria make Germany look like their poor cousins. And even Slovak and Hungarian trains are more punctual. Seeing a Western country with Balkan-like train punctuality was shocking!
Civil-Nose-9405@reddit
There arent many people that evoke in me a feeling of disgust and utter contempt like germans do. they arent cold, i can deal with cold people, i can be a bit cold and detached myself, but they literally derive joy in seeing you suffer. some of them will go out of their way to spread they misery. theyre rude, racist and think theyre superior then other "lesser" people/races, it would be kind of tolerable if they ware right about it but theyre clearly not superior, quite the contrary, i find them to be incredibly ignorant and insular. i really cant stand them.
Tricky-Hat-139@reddit
Ah my favourite topic.
Live in France now but used to live in Germany for two years. Besides the whole scolding and staring culture, customer service is awful.
At first, you think it's not that big of a deal to have that now and then at a restaurant or a store. But here's the thing, customer service is your internet provider, landlord, and visa/immigration officer. The people you need who are just assholes through and through is not a great way to live.
The French/France have their issues but my god does the wine and food make up for it.
Daidrion@reddit
I thought France is similarly bad when it comes to service?
Tricky-Hat-139@reddit
Yes and no. I think the big cities like Paris, absolutely. But I have lived in small towns and most people are pretty understanding. We have also made mistakes and most people have given us benefit of the doubt.
Also, there are more digital platforms and stuff you can do online so it is easier for an expat.
Whereas on Germany, any mistake on a form...forget it. You gotta do that shit again. Rigidity does not make for fun paperwork.
hungry-axolotl@reddit
I can't really comment on Germany and I'm mainly here to see how everyone else feels. But my impression of Germans is that they are a bit stoic (quiet?) and tend to be sticklers for the rules, but overall alright. Once they open up a bit they have a decent sense of humour. Of Germany itself? I like their beer and cider, would love to go skiing/hiking there too. I thought about maybe finding work in Germany as I heard their chemical industry is big there, but after dealing with dealing with VISAs and finally getting my UK passport, I'm more interested in the UK atm and learning German seems more complicated than let's say learning Danish
simocosmo@reddit
1.Relative lack of openness towards third nationals 2.Red tape is very demanding 3.Rules rules rules
SDgurl1980@reddit
I remember what they did to the Jews
Large-Beginning-9388@reddit
I have lived here for 15 years. Had only one German friend in college which had polish parents . now only one German friend, which has an Irish father. Had a ton of German colleagues at work. 0.001 percent see you equally capable. I am being fired from several jobs because they can’t see a foreigner working better than them. Your unqualified boss hates you because he is appointed to the position because of race not because of qualification and he can’t see you being better than him. The superiority complex will lead them into big economic trouble. Because any good working expat who find jobs in another county leaves. the economy needs workers but they simply make you hate your decision working here. I had good experiences in times too, and was from encounters from those that have been around the world to understand no country on earth is not special after all.
Electronic_Froyo_444@reddit
Haven’t been to Germany yet, but your post makes it sound amazing. I’ve always heard the bureaucracy and language can be a hurdle, but honestly, everything you described sounds super appealing. Might need to bump it up on my list!
Sayahhearwha@reddit
I’ve seen Germans visit Spain and are totally rude to the locals and think they own the place. Very disrespectful.
bprofaneV@reddit
I worked with German software engineer for a year and dreaded the code review moments. Those people seem miserable.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Never lived in Germany but worked with Germans....actively avoid them. In fact, I recently had to decide between two companies for a remote job...the German company was so 'German' even at this pre-job stage that I decided to drop my application. Incredibly rude and entitled even before I accepted the offer.
I remember another situation years ago where I applied to a job with a German company and the people asked me to send them so many of my degree documents etc, not typical in my profession because it's one where you can easily verify status online. I went through the trouble of getting all the documents for this one little 'speshul' company and sent it to them to NEVER hear from them again, ever, not even to acknowledge receipt/thank me for sending all the damn documents.
Anything/anyone German for me now is avoid avoid avoid. Meetings with German clients or colleagues have been so torturous in the past, so in my last job I would have any cases involving germans reassigned to other colleagues.
bprofaneV@reddit
Yeah, I’m in the Netherlands and laugh at all the German jokes. Because they are true.
CharacterValue@reddit
It's the same in Sweden. German's are a joke. They bring this weird culture of hierarchy that just do not exist in Sweden anymore. Like using titles and expecting you to respect the the title as if they are better than you lol. Sweden is super flat and casual in school and at the work place. You just call every, even the boss, by first name or nickname and chime in with input or call out when you feel like it's needed. Not just yes-manning because you got to respect the hierarchy.
moresushiplease@reddit
Because rigid bureaucracy is German for "an enjoyable everyday life"
Tricky-Hat-139@reddit
Oh and food blows.
ReceptionInitial9087@reddit
I've lived in Germany for 3 years and idk what can I say, just like other places in the world it has advantages and disadvantages.
What makes it unpopular is the culture mostly I guess. People are unwelcoming and dismissive towards anyone who is "not from around here". (Some) rude people. Very hard local culture to integrate into. People are all about minding their own business, but it always feels like people are watching you and tell you immediately if you're not following the rules which makes it stressfull. Difficult language. Digitalization is seriously lagging behind, and it's overall quite conservative and oldfashioned. Cold, gray weather 9 months per year. High taxes. Big cities are expensive.
Overall you can live a good life here, but there are just more pleasant places to live
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Nothing of what you listed even remotely hints to "good life" tbh.
ReceptionInitial9087@reddit
Haha, I was specifically listing the negative things because OP asked my Germany isn't popular.
But it also has positive things: It's safe, it's stable (if you have a decent job that is), great public transport system, healthcare has been good, housing is mostly affordable if you don't live in the city center of a huge city, lots of nature, good work/life balance!
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Idk, my friend got robbed twice in Frankfurt, in front of dozens of people who did not give a fuck. Every time I travelled to and within Germany by bus or train they were always hours late. More than a couple of times the delays were over 5 hours. I have honestly never experienced a worse rail system than the German one, even US trains are way more reliable and better maintained, German trains are full of garbage even in first class. I can agree on the nature but it is area dependent as you specified.
ReceptionInitial9087@reddit
Classic frankfurt hauptbahnhof experience
Sadistmonkey@reddit
For me personally it is the way their school system works. I don't like it at all and hate how it ruins some kids. Other than that I like the country and would not mind living there if I end up not having kids.
stockholmwife@reddit
Cost of living in Germany is low, which is nice, but salaries are also low. Germans are also very mean. Why would anyone leave their country for that?
Affectionate_Law7117@reddit
My life hack in Germany was to act like I dont speak German and that I was a tourist ( I was a Permanent Resident with fluent German skills) . But for some reason they treated me better haha. As soon as they ifnd out you speak German fluently, they treat you like their own miserable population.
Jamaal_Lannister@reddit
Food is bad, people are weird
jasmine_tea_@reddit
For me personally it was just the fact that there wasn't an easy way to get a visa, and the fact that homeschooling is completely illegal. Too strict.
Spain on the surface seems more laidback but the bureaucracy is also stuck in the past.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Indeed, Spain is nicer in many ways but the bureaucracy and taxes are a no go, I'm leaving soon. Also, homeschooling is also illegal (although I think I may have heard about some changes recently??not sure)...
The thing is, there was this really sad story about a 14/15 year old girl who was being bullied at school....her parents BEGGED the school/municipality to allow them to homeschool, because the municipality was REFUSING to let her change schools to escape her bullies! The poor girl ended up committing suicide...and what followed was a super toxic situation where some teachers and even some classmates and their parents were DEFENDING the school and the bullies!
Spain is fantastic in many ways but there can also be toxic layers in specific situations because of the 'tribe'/herd mentality....there is a very good (and tragic) example of this in one of the episodes of a true crime series called crims (iirc)...a young, disturbed guy murdered a teenage gil in a small town....the one investigator that tried to catch the guy was betrayed by the his own police coworkers...they would alert the family of the criminal as to when their phones were being tapped etc. I was so sad for the family, they would talk about going to the town bar and the murderer just hanging there in plain sight like nothing had happened...
jasmine_tea_@reddit
None of this is surprising!
I ended up in France instead.. no serious complaints about my stay here.
DigitalInvestments2@reddit
If we wanted to visit the middle east, we would fly there
vee_sparkles@reddit
one word: weather
AlbaMcAlba@reddit
Having spent a bit of time in Germany working. There are beautiful places in the country and cities but yeah it’s full of Germans.
Spain and Portugal are more laid back and open.
Valuable_Calendar_79@reddit
As a fellow northern European, I am wondering what all those reactions about Spain and Portugal mean. With that, there they are more "open". The weather is much better, people smile more, food better, more relaxed, OK, we all get that. But do Southern Europeans really allow you into their private life, more than Northern ones? Like when you become real friends, are you invited to their weddings, funerals, etc.?
ultimomono@reddit
You make a good point. I would say it's not that different in Spain in that respect. What is different, though, is that it's easy for people who never really integrate on a deep level to be adjacent to Spanish people doing their thing a lot more, because there's a big culture of life in the streets, bars, meetups, etc. I think many people who might consider themselves as "expats" overestimate how deeply they have assimilated because of that
But really making it into the inner sanctum requires a deep commitment to fitting in, getting educated here, integrating into Spanish families, etc.
AlbaMcAlba@reddit
Subjectively age is a key factor. It can take months to years to gain friendship and depends on your personality.
Valuable_Calendar_79@reddit
But question is, in which culture is that easier? That is in the end what matters most when you decide to immigrate (stop calling yourselves expats)
AlbaMcAlba@reddit
Personally but not Europe it was India and Mexico for me especially Mexico.
I can’t comment on all Europe because I’ve not worked lived anywhere except Germany, Belgium, Italy for a very short time, Slovakia, Netherlands.
I found the Dutch very friendly and also Slovaks but language barrier.
StillHereBrosky@reddit
You don't say!
spammmmmmmmmy@reddit
School system is too rigid
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
Can you explain why?
MarcusBrody96@reddit
I understand that they separate out "not university material" children quite early and once that happens there is no path to getting back in.
napalmtree13@reddit
That's not true. There are paths to still go to university even if you initially don't go to a Gymnasium. Also, aside from one state, schools don't get to make the decision as to where a child goes. They make a suggestion, but its still the choice of the parents.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
Wow, that is precious information, any way to avoid this? How to push your child above?
Tall-Newt-407@reddit
I can tell you my experience so far. I’m a black U.S citizen living in Germany for almost 8 yrs with my German wife. First of all, the weather. I guess it depends on where you come from. I came from Illinois and actually the weather here is quite similar with Germany weather being much better. I love the sense of security here. Back home, I definitely had to lock my doors and have eyes in the back of my head when going out but here, I don’t have that feeling. I was surprised, on day one, how everyone was greeting me. I always get a good morning or hello. Personally it’s seldom that I encounter any „rude“ Germans. I’ll admit that some love to give orders but I really don’t take that personally. I can’t really comment on the friends part. I’m the type that rather just be with my wife and kids. I actually had the next door neighbor invite me for a laser tag type of outing but I turned it down. Racism…I never experienced here personally. However what I do experience is something different. More of the feeling that some just don’t know any better and don’t have any intention to hurt you but are naive. The language is hard but I got to a point that I’m decent at it. Also nobody ever gave me a hard time about it. Most would agree that it’s hard and are surprised with how much I know it. Overall I really like it here and don’t see myself going back to the U.S. Definitely not with Trump in office.
machine-conservator@reddit
Can't emphasize enough how nice this part is. It is shockingly evident when back visiting how much more on guard everyone is, even if there's a friendly front on it. I love how safe it is in Germany, and how much more relaxed that lets people be on the street.
This has been my experience too. I've only had a couple times people gave me crap about it, the vast majority are happy to see the effort and quite patient (or just switch to English because it's faster and there's a line building up, which I understand).
Tall-Newt-407@reddit
Actually same here. 2-3 people gave me a hard time about the language but after I explained how extra hard it is with the dialect and slang, they changed their tune and agreed with me.
machine-conservator@reddit
Spoken German is so hard! I feel pretty at ease with written German now but even after a couple years here often just feel like a dumb baby when I have to talk to people.
Tall-Newt-407@reddit
It is! Listening, for me, is getting easier but, yeah, talking is quite hard. I think I just concentrate to much on the grammar and which article I need to use. At least most people understand me when I talk, so that’s good.
Solopreneur40s@reddit
Just try spending a couple of months over winter there and your view will be completely different. Always grey, always raining, people badly humored.. The reason you loved it is because (i) weather was nice (which is rare) and (ii) people were nice (because the weather was nice, and that’s rare)
ORFOperon@reddit
Taxes are way too high.
raiksaa@reddit
Weather is shit.
theQmech@reddit
I moved to Netherlands after studying two years in German Schweiz.
From experience, the Dutch tend to be more pragmatic and open minded. If they see a foreigner doing things differently, they will ask and try to understand why. If they don't agree, they'll be blunt about it but tolerate you either way.
Open minded germans also exist. But are harder to find :)
Snoo-94703@reddit
Weather, language, food.
I had the choice of transferring to Germany, France or Spain with my job. Italian husband and I ended up choosing Spain. We also knew we’d receive more visitors in Spain / maintain friendships/familial connections more and be generally happier. Husband is in sales and we knew he’d have a much easier time becoming fluent in Spanish vs German.
Professionally, I jive with Germans more, I ‘get’ what they are about and they are predictable which is calming to me. More of my professional contacts are based out of Germany and I’d earn more there. So I haven’t written off the country completely, but I’ve lived in cold weather climates my whole life and being around the sun all of the time makes a huge difference in your attitude and the attitude of everyone else who lives here.
lamppb13@reddit
I'd move to Germany if I could. I love football and don't mind people being rude to me just because I'm not from there. But not everyone is like me, so I understand why people wouldn't like it there.
Adventurous_Lab914@reddit
Why would you give people the right to be rude to you in the first place?
lamppb13@reddit
I'm not sure I understand your question. People will be rude regardless of if I "give them the right" to be. I don't control other's actions. All I can control is myself.
Adventurous_Lab914@reddit
Oh, I understand your point now. Thank you!
Odd_Dot3896@reddit
It’s objectively a shit place to live.
helge-a@reddit
Sorry for shitty mobile formatting.
Remember: people are always more motivated to write reviews when they had a really negative experience.
Disclaimers: I am working as an Au Pair and will find a job in the medical sector soon. I speak B2 German with zero accent. I am white.
I (23, American) am extremely happy here. I have made a handful of friends, mostly Germans, my circle continues to grow. I can travel anywhere I want with a train, don’t need a car (though transit here is notoriously unpunctual and broken). The grocery prices are dirt cheap. Bike friendly. Germans will meet you where you’re at. Often if I am the one to begin with a smile, a wave, a “schönen Tag noch!”, it is reciprocated. They can be shy but are excited to chat once I get the ball rolling. I don’t have to worry about the cost of an ambulance ride (I paid off a $2000 bill when I got COVID in the US and needed an ambulance).
While I do miss the consideration of Americans (as Germans are rarely known to help carry things, assist someone in need, etc), I don’t miss the cheery, exhausting niceties. Call me the grinch, it just triggered my social anxiety like you wouldn’t believe to play social charades when I don’t really want to. All the people in my age group here 20-30 have been super fucking cool.
kitanokikori@reddit
I really have to point out though, if you're a pretty white woman, you get treated a lot different than everyone else (this is coming from someone who still gets some of this effect too)
Pretty privilege is way more of a factor in this country I feel - it immediately gets you past the German "be shitty by default" behavior. If I was a brown dude, people would absolutely not be treating me the way they do day-to-day.
helge-a@reddit
Yep. As I noted, I’m white and also have no accent. If I was Turkish or Arab, it’d be different.
supernormie@reddit
Housing market & language requirements
Argentina4Ever@reddit
I have a pretty negative opinion of the country, my wife is German and I tried living there for a while and it was a pretty bad experience.
Weather is horrendous, you burn to a crisp during summer with not a single AC in sight and the rest of the year is raining and cold and towns are usually really ugly during winter. The culture is very anti-social, people are closed and rude, you don't really get to interact with much people.
The language is very difficult to learn, I'm fluent in 3 languages but always struggled to pick up on German and as I felt more and more displeased with the country the less of an incentive was there to learn it.
Germany is incredibly bureaucratic and has excessive red tape everywhere, services are honestly awful, there is a strong anti-immigration sense in the country fueled by their poorly managed refugee/asylum practices. Jobs are honestly nothing impressive, salaries are okayish but taxation is very high. Cost of living is also very high.
Public transport was overpriced until they brought the DE ticket, getting a drivers license is ultra expensive (had to because Germany is one of the 3 only EU countries that doesn't automatically exchange with my home country license).
Simply because there's better places to go, if you're high skilled immigrant you definitely have a lot of options and Germany simply fails to seem attractive, you have to put a ton of effort into it for a relatively low return. Most people I know who lived there long term ditched out the moment they finally got their German passport.
My wife and I for instance we eventually left it for Spain and it was definitely worthwhile, I like Spain's weather, culture, way of life so much better and I'm a lot happier here.
Wise_Pr4ctice@reddit
"Most people I know who lived there long term ditched out the moment they finally got their German passport." and that's why Germany should make it more difficult to get hands on German passports.
cocada_@reddit
This is a typical German behavior. They won’t lose anything with immigrants getting a passport. In fact they gain a lot of taxes throughout the years. People already wait a looooong time for citizenship. But they don’t want them to have it.
Wise_Pr4ctice@reddit
and, now? No other country gives passports away that easy & fast. Not a fan of it.
skyreckoning@reddit
Spain gives Filipinos and Latin Americans passports in 2+ years.
Big_Job9386@reddit
Suffering must be rewarded
Fletch_The_Enfield@reddit
In a way yeah, the logic often is that you had to pay a ton of taxes for a welfare you never had access to so at least getting a passport makes up for that.
Plus, if the person gains citizenship and leaves right the next day to live in another EU country with their newly found freedom of movement, what does it really matter to the average German? The person isn't costing you anything or making life worse in Germany, hells the person is not even in Germany any more so why would it matter?
Daidrion@reddit
Their pride hurts.
Big_Job9386@reddit
You're appealing to logic, but it fails when faces German national elitarism😂
Daidrion@reddit
You're not worth, it kartoffel.
hater4life22@reddit
As opposed to making the country more livable for people to stay?
Minute-Pea783@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the detailed answer! Where in Spain are you?
Argentina4Ever@reddit
Today we're living in Alicante, I do need to say that I have a remote job with an US firm so I'm not affected by the usual complaint about Spain's weaker job market.
Apotropaic-Pineapple@reddit
Yup. If you got skills or capital, you get a better deal elsewhere.
wheel_wheel_blue@reddit
Because it’s cold, technologically a bit behind, expensive, and to make friends or even acquaintances take time…
Daidrion@reddit
You're being generous.
LoyalteeMeOblige@reddit
I just want to state that until 5 years ago a lot of places required you to FAX information. FAX. In 2018!!!
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Insane lol.
LoyalteeMeOblige@reddit
And yet very German, I work in Procurement, I'm based in the NL, and I could manage a B2 German but not enough to conduct a whole business conversation with them, by email is easier thanks to online translators, and my ability to detect weird things but if you pick up the phone, nobody speaks English, or they don't care for speaking it with you. They have this very old mindset, that does not reflect the current today, they are the powerhouse of the EU, do you want to do business with us? Then in German, obviously.
My husband had this weird notion a lot of them were bilingual and no, it is not the case, he was saved by me since I could muster the whole exchange of asking price, ordering, etc both in Köln, Aachen, and other places we visited but no, it is not the same as here in the NL where everyone speaks English, even old people in the middle of nowhere at a village, no German would manage it in Germany, and that creates issues especially since the German transport system is a mess, some places requires cash, and the trains are always delayed.
wheel_wheel_blue@reddit
I know
Odd-Bobcat7918@reddit
I mean yes, the DB is far from being good but the delays are currently due to a large modernization of infrastructure and the resulting construction sites. So it‘s gonna be better in a few years.
Plus, technologically behind compared to what country exactly? Switzerland? Maybe. Estonia? Maybe. But there are tons of countries (e.g. Spain or Italy) that lack technology much more and yet have probably more expats.
Daidrion@reddit
Found the German. It's always the same type of a response.
But which countries are ahead in terms of tech in Europe? Well, I dunno, how about: Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Switzerland, Poland, Czechia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, the Netherlands, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, the UK. There might be others, but I'm just not sure about it.
The word you're looking for is "bad" or "terrible".
It has been due for at least a decade, and now they're starting with some modernizations, which who knows much they will take. Not to mention the Deutschlandtakt was pushed to 2070.
Odd-Bobcat7918@reddit
In what technology are the listed countries ahead? Being able to pay with card at a bakery or being able to fill out forms online is super nice to have, definitely. And a better working public transport - hell yeah. But just looking from a technology standpoint, Germany has been at the forefront of the world since the 60s and 70s and they still are.
According to the Global Innovation Index only the Netherlands, Sweden and Finland are ahead of us in the EU. The GDP is on top. We were leaders in solar panels for years till we sadly sold all our knowledge in that field to China.
I mean, I‘m a hater of Germany (you can ask everyone around me) but saying Germany lacks technology is just not true.
But yes, DB should be better but there are a lot of places where it‘s even worse than here. Where you cannot go to each little village by train. I personally would go for Switzerland the first chance I get because for me, it‘s the better Germany. But well.
People here tend to hate everything German and nationalism is hated here too. So it‘s relatively easy to hate on Germany. But spreading lies like you do? Nah man.
TomBerlin100@reddit
Upvoting this from a train that is 120 minutes late right now.
RedditorsGetChills@reddit
Flashbacks to last week for me...
I took a day trip to Dusseldorf from Amsterdam (had to read this post because Dusseldorf, the people there, and the Germans I met in Amsterdam were all awesome...) and got there exactly when I should have, but getting back I was 2.5 hours late, completely fucking up that day's plans.
It was also hovering around 29 degrees and we had to wait outside for a spontaneous transfer. At least the Germans near me informed me of the train we were on suddenly stopping and needing a switch.
Singularity-42@reddit
Need to bring Hitler back to make the trains run on time! /s
guymarcus_@reddit
Lateness has been so normalized. By lateness I mean sometimes 40-60 mins late.
basecamp_sherpa@reddit
Language, language, language
napalmtree13@reddit
I really like Germany and I'm happy to live here. I think people have valid complaints, but it also depends on where you move. I rarely if ever experience the level of rudeness people talk about here, and that may be because of where I live. We vacuum on Sundays and have never had an issue. I've accidentally recycled glass on the wrong day or time countless times, never had anyone say anything. No one has ever commented on how we throw away our trash and even my German husband likely gets it wrong sometimes, despite our best efforts.
The work and friend-making thing is very real, though. It's true that they want native speakers who happen to also be (their idea of) fluent in English. It's also very hard to make friends here; people tend to stick to the same people they've known since school, even if they no longer have much in common.
Hiking is not a good indicator of how friendly people are. It's standard to greet people you pass on a hike.
You're also here when the weather is at its best. I love Germany from about mid-April through the end of October. Even November and December are tolerable once the Christmas Markets start and my vitamin D isn't completely depleted yet. But January through March feels like a prison sentence.
brass427427@reddit
Guess I'm alone. I like the Germans and get along well with them. To be honest, I find Americans more irritating.
wanderingdev@reddit
How many years have you been living in Spain? The tons of rain in the last few months is an anomaly, not the norm. I have spent the last few winters in spain and can count on one hand the number of rainy days i encountered. Usually germany in winter is cold and dark and grey. It's generally much more wet vs spain - which has been drought ridden for years - which is why it's more green. There are green areas of spain in the more rainy areas.
All that said, I do like Germany and there are some things that appeal to me more than Spain. But I think it gets a bad rep along with many northern european countries as being cold and difficult to integrate. Being friendly with random people while on holiday is not the same as trying to integrate into a relatively closed society.
Fungled@reddit
Germany had a boom in the 2010s and it seemed like it had loads of potential. This didn’t pan out very near to those expectations in reality though
tvpsbooze@reddit
I was one of the suckers who came here exactly during those times.
Fungled@reddit
Haha so was I! I’m not saying it was SO terrible, it certainly had its ups and downs. But SO MANY MISTAKES were made in that period that are only just becoming apparent now (cough Merkel cough)
AllPintsNorth@reddit
And the country is collectively deluding itself in to thinking it’s still their heyday.
Daidrion@reddit
That's one of the most annoying aspects for me. I moved from Russia in 2019 for political reasons, and it felt like stepping back 10 years in the past even back then, and I'm not even from Moscow.
They just don't comprehend how far behind they're failing. "Tja, but have you seen how bad things are in the country X" is their typical response. There's no strive to improve whatsoever, which is especially jarring when you know that things can be done much better.
CasaSatoshi@reddit
The problem with Germany is that it's full of Germans 😝
PolyPill@reddit
Because the immigration office is a nightmare and they actively try to stop anyone from immigrating.
helge-a@reddit
Is there really any immigration office that people enjoy? I mean that earnestly. Immigration sucks ass.
PolyPill@reddit
Yes there are. Germany is particularly bad. If they just followed the laws as written it would be a huge improvement.
tripletruble@reddit
Moved from Germany to France and as much as I can relate, the French immigration authorities still manage to be much worse
PolyPill@reddit
Germany‘s problem is that everything is 100% up to the immigration worker handling your case. They can follow the laws then things are relatively problem free just very slow or they can decide they don’t like you and start adding on obscene requirements. Your only choice is to spend a bunch of money on a lawyer or move and start the process over.
Rocketronic0@reddit
Besides waiting times, Norwegian immigration has been a very positive experience for me.
helge-a@reddit
Good to know. I’ve gotten too used to Germany perhaps haha
StillHereBrosky@reddit
Germany is known for being a bit cold and overly strict. Most Westerners want to switch it up to a more laid back place, hence Spain or Portugal (or Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil)
LowerBed5334@reddit
Been living here in Upper Franconia for 30 years and I can't see myself living anywhere else in the world.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Sounds intriguing, can you briefly describe what life is like there?
Flat_Ad1094@reddit
Suppose it depends on what people are looking for. Germans can be pretty dry. Their culture can be unyielding and not very friendly.
Minimum_Rice555@reddit
In May, it's easy to feel that way but come November, the "tides are turned", and Germany becomes cold and wet. In Germany you need a winter coat for November but for the most part you can still walk in a t-shirt on the beach (if not swim, still) in the south of Spain. There is a good reason why many Germans choose to retire in Spain. If money or work is no object, Spain offers a better quality of life. I think Germans work so hard they leave the fun for later but that "later" never comes. Most Germans are perpetually grumpy.
bigopossums@reddit
Not even that it’s just cold and wet, but it’s dark. I’ve lived in the rural Midwest and Boston, super snowy, wintery places. But there’s still sunlight. I was amazed when I visited my family in Ohio for Christmas and I needed my sunglasses like everyday. Once it hits fall in Germany, it’s super dark out by 4:00 PM. It’s incredibly draining.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Can't stand darkness...I wish I could, on paper it sounds great to me...dark, cold days for staying in reading with a candle and some hot tea/chocolate....but when I experienced it (in NL) it was super depressing.
I also find that the shopping hours/Sunday closing thing makes it worse than it needs to be....if stores would longer hours/ open on Sundays I think at least the streets would be livelier.
Kurt805@reddit
Yeah I always thought that seasonal depression was bullshit but then May rolls around and I notice I don't hate my life and myself anymore. It's really tough here.
PreparationShort9387@reddit
There are countless German songs about may, because that is the best month of the year. Like "Der Mai, der Mai, der lustige Mai". OP has already seen the best version of Germany.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
Agree, there are 3 summer months, with 3 super hot 36+ weeks, after that, plenty of diziness, clouds, and humid, 9 months of uncertainity. Why? Because you freeze more when outside are +1°C than when for example Eastern Europe, with dry cold, -10 °C. And this is depressive, unless you like this, or trying to avoid this practicing sport (winter ski, bike, indoor games, klettern or wandern). I find Germany ok if you are young, here is a place to make money, if you are good at job and taxes calculation. Not Germans are cold, the weather and stigmas about this country make all the people think bad about it. I have met plenty of lovely people in Germany, which tried to integrate me, help with language, job and freetime. I've met the same mean and jealous people in every country I visited.
nthlmkmnrg@reddit
Given the option, old people will choose warm weather.
Malakaman8@reddit
Nice country but as compared to most of Europe- rude people, colder weather , fixed Mindset, doesn’t feel like a happy place.
Wheedles@reddit
Not as many German speakers in those places you mentioned. Just the USA for example has over 144 million people who either come from Spanish speaking families or learned it in school. German fluency in the USA is rare in comparison
Life-Unit-4118@reddit
Cold people. Unwelcoming. As a gay Jew visiting Berlin, it felt like an iceberg.
DependentAnimator742@reddit
I actually love Germany. A few years ago I spent four months there not intending to, it was happenstance, but I stayed with a few families and the people were great. I'm retired and teaching myself German now. My partner and I are US citizens but we've lived elsewhere in the world. Now we are back in the USA, and all we want to do is leave. We keep looking at where to go in the world... And I would jump at going to Germany; however the tax rate there is really high, especially for retirees who won't be using any of the services like schools. Remember, we ex-pat retirees will have to be paying for our health care. Yes, Portugal and Spain also have high taxes, but the cost of living is so much lower. France is now welcoming retiring expats, and they aren't charging us tax on any of our pension income. As long as we pay for health insurance, they welcome us with open arms.
We are willing to pay 15% on income up to $100k, like Lithuania, USA, etc but Germany is a killer on tax.
lefix@reddit
German here, I left because I hated the weather. But I also found the culture a bit, idk, people can be so cold and negative, I felt like I didn’t click with my fellow Germans anymore
Moved to south east Asia and had the best years of my life, met my wife, started a family etc. and eventually moved back to Germany. Can’t beat free healthcare, free childcare/education, vast public transport etc. My wife loves Germany, she’s a hard working woman and she loves that people here are professional and also treat her with respect as a woman. She loves the social benefits people have here and many other things. Obviously she has an easier time since she has a German husband who can manage the typical hurdles like the huge loads of paperwork, which typically has to be done in German and on paper. Digitalization/internet is still foreign to German bureaucracy, probably one of the main reasons Germany is not and attractive destination for expats. But she does hate the food here, which I often disagree with. Not because I think German food is good, but because Germans eat pretty much every cuisine in the world. No other country in the world have I seen such a wide range of restaurants, such diverse supermarket shelves. She’s Vietnamese and we have like a dozen Vietnamese restaurants in walking distance, and 2 Vietnamese supermarkets around the corner.
Additional-Ebb-2050@reddit
Life is too short to learn German.
pre_industrial@reddit
Because of Germans
strahlend_frau@reddit
Idk because Germany is my dream home...but I'm stuck in Amerika
Ashamed_Fig4922@reddit
1) German is difficult and in other European countries is not normally taught in school. So in order to emigrate to Germany, you have to learn a new language on purpose.
2) There are also sadly a lot of negative stereotypes about Germans, aimed at depicting them as cold as unfriendly, even if it's not true, especially in my experience.
MeggatronNB1@reddit
"There are also sadly a lot of negative stereotypes about Germans, aimed at depicting them as cold as unfriendly, even if it's not true, especially in my experience."
Ok,
Why not test that out. Tomorrow go and try meet new people/strangers, tell them you have just moved to Germany from USA. See how many receive you with kindness.
CiXeL@reddit
The only person I knew (an aeronautical engineer) who ever tried to fully immerse and integrate into German society said, it's impossible. They'll never let you. He said even if you master the language, you're always a foreigner.
aSliceOfHam2@reddit
I beg to differ (said the Turk)
williamgman@reddit
Cost of living.
ChollyWheels@reddit
I would be curious about how Berlin features into this narrative.
I have very limited experience with Germany (or Europe) and I've never been to Berlin... but (in fantasy) it is a bit like New York City being "an island off of the United States" -- always a bit more vegetarian, Cabaret, liberal, artistic, rebellious -- unlike (say) Munich. Or like the way New York City's "East Village" (and now Bushwich) are ot the rest of New York City (younger, more late night, artistically open, and more fun).
Singularity-42@reddit
- Expensive
- Bad weather
- People
- Boring geography (lack of big mountains or great warm beaches)
ubfeo@reddit
Have you seen Germany lately ?...
Captlard@reddit
Which part of Spain are you in? The North Atlantic coast is very green.
I would imagine better weather overall and the allure of the Med lifestyle, whatever that is.
Minute-Pea783@reddit (OP)
I'm in Barcelona. Love the city, but it's definitely not very green. and it's crowded. There are beautiful hikes within an hour or so, but most of the towns also aren't very green.
Captlard@reddit
Even if you went up to Girona, it changes completely in my mind. I loved La Garrotxa, Puigcerdá, and northern Costa Brava.
I lived in Sitges and worked somewhat in Barcelona / Rubi areas.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
Can you tell me if aproaching Barcelona is easy, especially when are traffic jams and high tourist season? Been there as a tourist, seemed to me pretty decent to drive, very fluent.
Captlard@reddit
It’s straightforward to drive and park in the centre in my experience. It’s a working city, so avoid 7am to 9am and 5pm to 7pm. Plus Sunday evenings are bad as everyone gets back from outside the city.
Candid-Plant5745@reddit
my best guess would be rigidity
Main_Cardiologist759@reddit
Germany is not really in any of the slow travel YouTube videos I watch. I just imagined it it too expensive?
No-Professional-7518@reddit
language!
UOLZEPHYR@reddit
Im trying !
HaleyN1@reddit
I really like Germans actually, but it's cold, expensive and taxy (new word I invented).
NotUglyJustBroc@reddit
It's an emotionally and mentally draining place unless you're build German kind of structure .
cookiedoughcookies@reddit
Just booked a trip to Germany last week. You guys are scaring me.
black-kramer@reddit
I hung around berlin for a few days and it was fine. just be polite.
JolyonWagg99@reddit
I loved living in Germany and got along with most folks just fine. Granted this was in the late ‘80s, not now, and I lived in West Berlin but in my travels I found people in most parts of the country to be generally okay. My last visit was in 2022 and perhaps it has changed a little bit for the worse. Certainly not the warmest people on earth but I didn’t have any real problems.
Honestly, I run into way more assholes here in Sacramento in one day than in two weeks in Germany lol
KingOfConstipation@reddit
It's funny because I originally wanted to go to Germany for my masters degree (can't beat free university!). But I find myself leaning away from Germany and toward France or the Netherlands.
I have heard about how cold and stuff Germans can be. But I've never heard of them being mean in the way you described it.
Various_Ad6034@reddit
Why would an expat go to a country with high taxes?
Missmoneysterling@reddit
The only time I've ever been harassed and bullied by customs was when passing through Munich airport after having the most beautiful vacation in France. There were three German officers and they were mocking, insulting, etc. until I just sat there and stared at them coldly. Apparently that was enough for them to hand me my passport.
I had been in such a great mood from my vacation and they destroyed it so quickly. I had many unpleasant thoughts about whether some Germans wished the H-nightmare had won and these guys would have been his followers. I don't know. They were just so obviously trying to ruin our day. So opposite of authority figures I've encountered in France, who have always been so happy and helpful.
We have often joke that we should start a comic strip about French police because they're so nice and friendly but the Germans are the opposite from my experience.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
I forgot the completely malfunctional healthcare system. That reffers to normal people with regular diseases, not on deathbed. Long waiting till you become an appointment "Termin", rudimentar treatment, Ibuprofen for all, and fastlane check. Pediatrics little bit bettee, but with lightspeed bodycheck and standard diagnosis with the same standard Ibuprofen for all symptoms. The doctors are ok and involved, but the high pressure from insurance companyes and lack of secondary personel (Krankenschwester) make the human approach almost impossible.
PresentationPlus@reddit
Friend, have you been to Germany? I lived there for two years, and while it has MANY good points, the culture can be very rigid. The people are very critical of others, and the bureaucracy is insane.
Kingston31470@reddit
French guy here. Beyond the cultural or weather reasons already in the top comments I would add this:
Germany can sometimes feel "boring". Which can be part of the appeal for people looking for a quiet, suburban family life with competitive salaries it may tick the boxes. But others may find the country dull and not motivated to live there.
The lack of top jobs in some sectors. Also due to Germany being decentralised, you will not have a single city attracting top jobs like London, Amsterdam or even Brussels. Of course there are large multinationals from Germany or plenty of finance jobs in Frankfurt for instance but it is not much more competitive than other places in Europe.
These are the main ones for me personally, as a reason why I never really considered living there despite having learnt the language at school.
Europeaninoz@reddit
I've been downvoted here for saying this before, but here it goes: I really don't think it's wrong to expect someone to speak the language of the country they live in. I've taught languages in several English-speaking countries, and I've lost count of how many teenagers complain about having to learn another language because "everyone speaks English." Years later, those same teenagers move to Germany and complain that it's unwelcoming because no one wants to speak English with them.
gdj11@reddit
Man. I’m in a similar situation but live in Southeast Asia and am looking to relocate the family to another country. Spain is actually one of the top possibilities at the time. Why are you moving from Spain?
LlamasunLlimited@reddit
So you are moving to Spain then?
hudibrastic@reddit
C’mon it is not that hard
19Sebastian82@reddit
germans arent really a welcoming bunch
limpleaf@reddit
In Germany (outside of Berlin and Munich) they would have to learn the language to some extent in order to lead normal lives. I assume the digital nomad kind doesn't really want to put up with that sort of thing since here doctors are allowed to refuse to deal with you if there's a substantial language barrier. Plus the town halls where you do registration and the foreigners offices where you deal with your immigrant affairs do not speak English so you need to be coming with some degree of German skills already.
Factor into the equation that we have the highest fiscal burden in the entire world and the negatives start outweighing the positives if you don't really want to be here for a longer period of time.
AllPintsNorth@reddit
Not even. They’ve dropped the charade lately.
4-5 years ago, they were accepting B1-2 at a lot of place.
2-3 years ago, that slowly started creeping up in the C1-2
The last two years, it’s been straight fluency.
And in the last couple months, I’ve been seeing more and more “Native” language requirements. They aren’t even hiding it anymore.
abiteofcrime@reddit
Don’t trust em.
miwe77@reddit
bureaucracy, taxes and last but not least: germans and their rapidly fading reputation for quality work into oblivion.
Apotropaic-Pineapple@reddit
Despite efforts otherwise, Germany is an ethnic state in practice. The locals tolerate other Europeans, but most of the population wants to live in a German culture with everyone speaking German. You will frequently hear stories about immigrants berated for not speaking sufficient German, especially if they're not white.
Cosmopolitan Germany does exist, but it is the minority. Most locals don't have much to do with it.
As a foreigner, what's the plus side? High cost of living and taxes, uncomfortable weather, and an economy with few positive prospects. You can make a life for yourself, but there are probably better options.
henare@reddit
which country doesn't want this?
wheel_wheel_blue@reddit
Better options? Can you mention some?
Apotropaic-Pineapple@reddit
Depends what you want. Apparently Denmark ain't bad if you want to live in a northern climate.
Personally I'd like to leave Europe in the next year or two. Singapore is where I'm looking.
limpleaf@reddit
The economic prospects being less positive is totally self inflicted. Germany is one of the few countries living well below its means. They have a very low debt to gdp and refused to leverage their economy when interest rates were 0%. They can afford a lot of debt and that can really change things. Besides the common German doesn't really invest their money beyond saving it. There's a lot of potential for becoming an economic powerhouse and getting back to growth but a few things need to change.
Apotropaic-Pineapple@reddit
Germany also ditched nuclear while relying on Russian gas. The cost of energy is absurd. This makes industrial expenses that much higher. Why manufacture in Germany when it would be far cheaper elsewhere?
I don't see much changing in DE. The entitlements are so heavy, but voters won't support reducing them.
limpleaf@reddit
I also think several systems need deep reforms or a complete rehaul. The health system here is quite broken right now. You have both the public health insurance and private insurance and this creates a 2 tier system where health care is a little bit more out of reach for some. Even though I pay over 850€/month in public health insurance (my contribution + employer) I don't have any coverage for dentistry or support for glasses. It just doesn't work. In most countries everyone has to pay something into the system but not here and that is just making things worse.
I have hope with the new public spending things will change but we'll see. At least infrastructure is top notch here and I'm grateful for that.
jagchi95@reddit
I couldn’t agree more, you nailed it
MonkeyNewss@reddit
Everything is old and outdated. Full of old people with old ways. Who wants that?
syf81@reddit
Plenty of Western Europeans do move to Germany, but they’re not posting here because they don’t need to figure out visas/logistics of moving there so you find them posting about it here.
But let’s say you’re in the Netherlands or Belgium, you can already easily drive or take a train to Germany anytime you want, there’s no need to move there unless you love it.
Unusual_Cockroach988@reddit
They are not writing because of minijob or Überstunden ))), they are trying to work hard.
throwaway3433432@reddit
I think it has something to do with it being boring. There is more to life than having a bit more money than in other countries. Never been in Germany though, so idk. But it always seemed like its culture offers nothing to foreigners.
Deathscua@reddit
I have been studying German since 2020 (I had some free time hehe), I DO like the weather, I love German bread, I really enjoy Berlin (as someone who doesn't eat meat) but I find that I would be very sad with the differences in personality and/or have to mostly befriend other expats.
As much as I try to assimilate, there is something that I adore so much, and that is a random hello/good morning while I walk around the city (or hell, a smile). I missed it SO MUCH in Norway and at least in Norway, I came already knowing many Norwegians - so I cannot imagine how it would be if I didn't have them.
NordicJesus@reddit
I think it depends who you ask. Southern Europe has lower cost of living and better weather. Someone with a remote job or living off savings/pension doesn’t care if the local salaries in Munich are higher than in Santander, but they will care about cost of living, weather, culture.
For people looking for a local job, I don’t think the choice is usually between Germany and Spain. It would be something like Germany vs. the Netherlands or Denmark. And then very often the other country wins because the job market is more international/expat-friendly/you can get by with English.
So I don’t think people typically explicitly decide against Germany - it’s more that they choose something else over Germany. At least that’s my impression - I could be wrong.
Additional_Praline_8@reddit
I was looking into Germany or Austria for immigrating into. Im looking at getting a visa for an in demand job position. Germany requires me to have about 12k in a locked German Bank account before I can get a Visa to prove I can care for myself and not need the Government help. Austria, does not. So Im trying to go to Austria.
jazzyjeffla@reddit
I think it’s cause the weather and the COL. Let’s be fair the culture is more open in the south than in the north. Food is better, access to the beach(if you’re on the coast), life style is chill. Spain and Portugal are like California but without the economic boom. lol. Ask Californians why do they choose to live there even those the Col is so high. Most would say because of the life style, weather, and nature.
Hot-Problem2436@reddit
I received interviews from many companies in the EU, but despite applying to German companies more than any others, I received zero communications from any of them. My hit rate was something like 15-20% with countries like Ireland, Belgium, Spain, and Poland. Germany was 0%. If you're not C2 level in German or already living there with contacts at German companies, you're not getting a visa to Germany.
Cinderpath@reddit
Weather! 😂 I mean Spain, Italy…😂