The only reason the court ruled the murder was not self defense is because she wasn’t supposed to have the knife, and I’m not following the logic. If someone tries to kill you and you shoot them with an illegal firearm, is that not simply an illegal firearms charge but still self defense?
Hell, even when someone tries to kill you you have to stop immediately once they run away/are nolonger a threat to you, if you continue to attacm youll be charged too
As reductive and morally wrong that is, legally speaking killing someone with a weapon and the premeditated intent to atleast grievously injure the attacker is an escalation of violence
It wouldve been something different if she in the heat of the moment grabbed something lying around and killing him with that - that would be manslaughter
But her carrying the knife all night long is what makes this difficult in court
She would only have managed to escape her attacker through use of a weapon which is why she possessed and used one. I’m not sure how carrying a weapon with which to defend yourself can be considered premeditated murder when someone tries to rape and possibly murder you, and you use it to escape.
The fact that her grabbing a weapon and killing him in her act of defense would be charged as manslaughter is equally ridiculous. The court has to be clearly biased against the defender considering that the alternative option for her would have been to be overpowered by a much stronger figure and raped/killed.
The fact that they were considering 25 years of imprisonment for this woman is absolutely insane considering her rapist would have probably gotten out 10 years earlier had he succeeded. The fact that the justice system failed this woman once before when she was 14, by not prosecuting her first rapist is a clear sign that the system is against this woman.
Carrying an illegal weapon for self-defense means you’ve already decided to break the law in anticipation of a potential threat. That’s not just preparedness—it’s a preemptive willingness to commit a crime and potentially escalate to another. Even if your intent is protection, you’ve planned to act unlawfully should a certain situation arise. That crosses the line from passive preparedness into premeditation.
Preparedness wouldve been something legal. Which... Yeah is kinda hard cause most stuff is classified as an offensive weapon which means they are i l l e g a l to own carry or use
Again, if she just picked something random up from the street in a panic it wouldve been different, but she knowingly carried an illegal weapon and killed someone with it.
What gives you the authority to say she couldve/did only escape cause of the weapon.
She has 2 working hands, feet, vocal cords and teeth.
All of those can do damage.
Again, the court might be biased, it might not. Per uk law she carried an illegal weapon with the intent to use it in the situation that happened and killed someone with it. That is what happened and what is relevant for the court. The sexual assault that did happen does not nullify the charges against her.
Is it morally speaking wrong? Yea. Can the judge do something against it? Unlikely. I dont know enough about UK law to say for certain that the judge could just overrule it and set a precedent for future similar cases.
I gotta drop the politeness for a sec, you claiming that her getting a manslaughter charge would still be overkill is just downright fucking dumb. Manslaughter is accidental killing. She did intent to hurt him. She did have the LAWFUL OBLIGATION to stop when he stopped attacking her.
"Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as "unlawful act" manslaughter.[9] It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughter."
OR
"Voluntary manslaughter is the killing of a human in which the offender acted in the heat of passion, a state that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed to the point that they cannot reasonably control their emotions. Voluntary manslaughter is one of two main types of manslaughter, the other being involuntary manslaughter."
Both these charges have the "imperfect defense" subcategory - basically excessive force. Which stabbing is.
Just cause a crime does happen to you doesnt mean youre free of all consequences until the crime is over.
I believe in this case it was because she showed him the knife or something before she stabbed him. Like she showed it to him, walked off and then came back and stabbed him like she changed her mind or something.
Really? The biggest rate of immigration in the UK comes during the government of the conservatives, a party which have more male voters compared to female voters. What evidence do you have that “women voted for this”?
The British "tories" are totally spineless, that make even the most flaccid republican looks like they have more firm principles. The UK conservative politicians are largely a group of out of touch rich people who don't have to live nesr the average joe.
They cede the ground to the Labour party on almost every issue that isn't beneficial to the super rich.
That doesn’t change what I said though, the comment and reply that I disagree with is the fact that they think “women voted for it” when it comes to SA. Especially young women who wouldn’t touch the Tories with a 10 foot pole.
With that being said, I find this part of what you said amusing
The UK conservative politicians are largely a group of out of touch rich people who don't have to live nesr the average joe.
If you think this doesn’t apply to you in the US, then I get a seafront property in Arizona to sell you.
When it comes to the policies that actually affect 90%+ of the population, such as the economic policies. The Tories have been gutting the NHS, kept the minimum wage low, and further strip the power of the unions. Don’t think that’s any different than the republican platform in the US. The only difference is that US republicans are either actually religious or keep up the facade of being religious. Hence why they pass conservative social policies, but those policies are just a front to siphon money to the super rich.
What party is most responsible for the fact that you can't even carry pepper spray for self defense in the UK because it's considered an "offensive weapon"?
Are elections referendums on single issues or are they complex decisions between parties with many policies where you have to weigh the pros and cons of each?
Leftists voting for open border policies have fallen prey to dangerous neo-marxist ideologies.
The West has learned its lesson on authoritarian extreme right politics. Perhaps it can learn the next chapter now: "The Extreme Left and the dangers of Suicidal Empathy".
Labour has curbed immigration compared to the Tories - the right leaning party had way higher immigration than the "lefties". Your talking points are bullshit.
Not a single far right political party has been adopted in the western world. Even the most right-wing political parties would've appeared liberal 10-20 years ago. Stop fear mongering over nothing.
>Trump
Trump is deporting the same number of people each month as Biden was.
>Le pen, Afd & fpö
None of them are elected lmfao, they're all just moderately rightwing and appealing to common gripes people have about mass immigration. They won't do shit anyways since they prioritize corporate interest.
>durch & swedes iirc elected right wingers
Italy has also elected a "far-right" politician and exactly jack shit has happened.
Redditors are so fucking terrified of none-existent white supremacist death squads that you'll overlook how the rich use mass immigration to supress wages and increase living expenses. Or how illegal immigration from north Africa and the middle east is part of a huge human trafficking operation. But hey, diversity is a strength right?
Pathetic.
There is not a single party in western Europe that is socially conservative. They're all different flavours of liberal that are either more or less fiscally conservative. Even parties that appear 'far-right' on the topic of immigration like AFD will spread their asshole open to corporate interests, which means immigration will increase anyways. Europoors can only lose lmfao.
These people watch neoliberal parties around the world enacting draconian laws,but irrelevant far right parties with no representation in parliament are to blame for the state of the country.
"left wing" and "right wing" are such useless fucking terms because nobody knows what they mean. An actual leftist party in Europe would clamp down hard on mass immigration because its benefits corporate/private interests the most at the expense of a countries native workers.
Britoids be quick to yell about how we are constantly getting shot here in America but, you know what? I think I prefer that increased background risk to living somewhere where the state can let this happen.
State didn’t fail that girl they intentionally sacrificed her for the Bank of England the people who rule you bong landers.
Seriously every time I look into life in the EU I see the chains of slavery being tightly wound around your wrists.
Here people may live poor and destitute and without recourse needing to rely on the state, but at least here you can kill a man who rapes your sister in cold blood or breaks into your house.
Seriously that’s the last vestige of freedom the ability to defend oneself from violent law breakers without that your liberal society has failed entirely.
Are you just ignoring the rest of the context of that incident? It's the fact that she not only shot him twice in the head, proving it's not self defense, but burned his house down, took selfies with his corpse and then stole his BMW.
If he was in the act of actually attacking her when she shot him, she might have a self-defense claim. The context of this instance suggests that she waited for the incident to be over and then shot him after the fact which is illegal. Her actions after that were also illegal. It's a very unfortunate incident and I have a ton of empathy for this woman, but she did herself no favors after the death.
"nooooo you can't shoot the guy who just raped you while he's in the middle of dressing up to leave! He's not actively harming you anymore so you're completely in the wrong for doing that!"
"Noooo you can't tackle the robber who just ransacked your home and turned his back against you as he leaves! He's no longer a threat and you're now being the aggressor! That'll be 5 years in jail for you 😤"
The incidents might as well not even be related. If this woman killed a rapist, she likely wouldn't be in prison. It's the fact that she burned the guy's house down, took selfies with his corpse and then stole his car. That is pretty fucking massive context dude
I’ll take over for them. For your third source: “The detective further asserted that Brown told the neighbor that the killing was a "fat lick" (robbery) and that she had been ‘waiting on a lick like that all week.’” She shot the man, stole $176 from his wallet, two firearms, and his truck and then left without ever going to the police. Had she stolen his wallet and went straight to the police with it to report him it would be a different story.
She would later go on to have her sentence commuted not because there was any argument that she didn’t do what she was convicted of, but because the governor who did said it was a “complex case” and that her sentence was too harsh for a minor.
So, again, picking a person who shot and killed someone to rob them and tried to use the context of being solicited (devils advocate: some women knowingly go into prostitution and there’s no way to state with certainty that she did not consent to sex as far as the murder victim was concerned) as justification for why she should be found innocent. Clearly the jury thought she murdered and then robbed him.
Your own mind would prefer to kill someone than use proportional force, don't pass the blame onto someone else "oh well they said I should just shoot them".
You're going to go through far more of a process if you kill someone in self-defence than if you'd just physically restrained them and called the police. Obviously if they have lethal force it's a different matter but that's not the majority of cases.
If you're able to kill them then you're in the position of power already, hence why the argument generally goes that you should have used that opportunity to do something that isn't taking a life.
A gun doesn't have a stun setting bro. If you pull a gun and they continue aggression or if that's the only tool you have on you and you're already being assaulted then they're getting shot and they might die and that's not on you at that point
Unless your gun is illegal in which case you'll face charges for that.
Your own mind would prefer to kill someone than use proportional force
Killing is proportional force to rape.
You're going to go through far more of a process if you kill someone in self-defence than if you'd just physically restrained them and called the police.
You can break out of restraints. You can't break out of being dead.
The courts generally seem to disagree. If you're in a position to kill someone you're in a position to either incaoacitiate them non-lethally, get them away from you or to run/hide away.
You can break out of restraints. You can't break out of being dead.
If you're in a position to kill someone you're in a position to either incaoacitiate them non-lethally, get them away from you or to run/hide away.
Retreat isn't a requirement where I live. Nor should it be. It's not a requirement in most of the US, really, and threat of serious harm is justification for lethal force everywhere.
Hence why it's treated a lot more severely.
Restraining somebody is more dangerous than just shooting them, and we are not obligated to expose ourselves to increased risk for the benefit of our attackers here. Here that's the legal rule. The moral rule is universal, but not always respected.
You keep saying "not here" like I can't find examples of them disagreeing with you "here".
And then we go in circles where you pretend that it happens less as if there's stats on that sort of thing and as if it's meant to minimise the fact that it can happen in the US.
threat of serious harm is justification for lethal force everywhere.
Eh, no. Threat of lethal force is justification for lethal force everywhere. Anything less and you need to try a bit harder to excuse it.
You keep saying "not here" like I can't find examples of them disagreeing with you "here". And then we go in circles where you pretend that it happens less as if there's stats on that sort of thing and as if it's meant to minimise the fact that it can happen in the US.
Sure. Courts get it wrong sometimes.
Eh, no. Threat of lethal force is justification for lethal force everywhere. Anything less and you need to try a bit harder to excuse it.
No. The common law test (codified in all states by statute) permit lethal force for some variation of nonlethal threat. In California, for example, they permit it for great bodily injury. In Pennsylvania, conversely, they permit it for substantial bodily injury, kidnapping, abd forcible sexual intercourse. Same legal test, same quantum of proof.
More complex fact patterns of any kind are harder to litigate, sure, but I don't think that's the argument you are making here.
This lady stabbed someone actively trying to rape her.
Chrystul Kizer, left the home of her sex trafficker, got a gun, retuned to his home shot him twice, set his corpse on fire, stole his car and only claimed self defense/reported the shooting to police after
found her in the stolen car.
First one she “That night, Gonzales-McLinn drugged Sasko’s drink, bound his wrists and ankles, and killed him by cutting his neck with a hunting knife.
She wrote the word “freedom” in his blood on a wall before driving away.
She was captured in Florida. She did not disclose the nature of her relationship with Sasko to authorities then.”
Second one “Brooks raped her again, she said in her plea, and when he fell asleep, she found a knife on his nightstand and stabbed him until he was dead.”
Stabbing someone when they are asleep/drugged is not self defense. It just isn’t and again not comparable to stabbing someone mid rape.
Maybe they both deserve lessened sentences, and it sounds like the first might get clemency. But they both engaged in vigilantism/revenge not self defense.
But they both engaged in vigilantism/revenge not self defense
Alright then, she (the girl in the OP) engaged in pre-meditated assault when she brought a knife with her to the scene of the attempted rape. Which means none of you should have an issue with this verdict seeing as you're excusing every other time it happens based on the fact that they hadn't literally picked up a weapon and killed their attacker mid-assault.
The point is that if you have the option to leave the dangerous situation it's not self defense. The woman in OP stabbed her assailant in order to escape, your examples are of women stabbing their assailant instead of escaping.
For the love of God if you ever go to court get a lawyer because things like semantics and context actually do matter in courts.
Now this is a greentext post of a picture of a news article so I can't say I'm not making a bunch of assumptions including that it happened at all because Brit domestic news is heavily biased depending on the source but honestly that's irrelevant to the conversation being had.
To wit, that your examples are clearly not of self defense and that using an illegal weapon in self defense doesn't clear you of the charge of having an illegal weapon because I just remembered Britain has knife laws and if OP girl stabbed the dude with an illegal knife she could still go to jail for that.
Second one sounds like self defence to me. Raped multiple times, used a knife as a means to escape. If she had tried to leave and he woke up, she would have been beaten, killed, or raped again. She made to right choice.
No, it speaks to a different set of values. I would rather live somewhere where the law governing self defense is not punitive when it is actually needed.
The topic at hand at its core is how safe the us is vs the uk. The us loses by every metric. I can keep asking questions.
It's quite clearly a conversation on comparable self defense laws. My comment explicitly concedes that there's a greater risk of being the victim of gun violence in the US.
There’s a greater risk of being the victim of any kind of violence in the us, is my point.
That point isn't in contention.
You cannot discuss self defence laws without discussing violence
That point isn't in contention.
Are YOU okay, for not seeing the clear connections between my points and yours?
You've yet to make an argument that we are at odds with, dude. I'm baffled by your defensiveness. You led off by impugning my intelligence based on points not raised, and I'm missing the connections here? Do you just need to rant a bit about how bad America is? Is that it?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
Hey man, if you want to feel safer in a country, that by all metrics is a worse place to be than the country you’re ragging on, you’re fully entitled to feel safe due to your self defence laws.
I just think that that stance is entirely deluded. Which you are clearly having trouble wrapping your head around.
Hey man, if you want to feel safer in a country, that by all metrics is a worse place to be than the country you’re ragging on, you’re fully entitled to feel safe due to your self defence laws.
I certainly prefer it here to my time over there.
I just think that that stance is entirely deluded. Which you are clearly having trouble wrapping your head around with all those questions
No, I understand your position. The idea that I might value what is valued in the US over what is valued in the UK clearly confuses and possibly even threatens you. I just dont think it's remotely relevant to the statements I'm making. A difference in values isn't a question of intelligence.
Especially when you assert that a persons values don’t tie into their intelligence. Just more delusions lmao
Buddy, two equally intelligent people can look at the same set of facts and arrive at very different conclusions about what matters most, not because one of them failed to understand, but because they weigh priorities differently. People arent dumber than you for preferring something different.
You know of any redkneck Mensa carrying democrat voters?
The redneck mensa guys i knew voted republican. Three were Louisiana chemical engineers working in oil refining and one is a South Carolina based patent lawyer. Can't say as I met a Democrat mensa holder before, though I've little doubt they exist.
And that proves a persons values doesn’t tie into their intelligence how exactly? Oh wait, it doesn’t. I never said it was the be all end all buddy, but it certainly ties into it and is one of many factors, if that helps your brain parse what I’m saying :)
No, I laid out why your statements didn’t prove anything, and I’ll do it again.
Because you were arguing as if I’d said a persons intelligence is integral to their personal values and not what I’d actually said, that it ties into them.
That’s a longer explanation of what I wrote above but if you read all that and your brain boiled it down to “Nuh uh” that is on nothing but your own delusions my guy
Glad we agree that lethal force is a very appropriate response to an attack.
The tradeoff is that someone road raging at you can just get their glock and turn you into Swiss cheese, but I guess it's worth it
Your risk of being the victim of a crime is low but never zero, correct. This has no bearing on the appropriateness of applying bullets to an attacker.
lethal force is a very appropriate response to an attack
Depends on the attack? Not everyone is cowboy enough to kill someone because they touched their breasts, but you do you (and I'm glad you don't write laws)
The issue the court has here is the possession of the knife. That's what disrupts the self-defence claim, in the same way someone in the US with something like an unregistered firearm, or someone who lacked a CCW permit in states where you require one would have their case of self-defence approached differently. The courts would ask "why did you leave the house with the gun if you knew it was illegal?" - that was my point.
Knives are illegal to carry (outside of a professional or technical capacity i.e. builders or campers) because every criminal claimed self defence. I disagree with that, but its what has been taken to issue here. She chose to leave the house with something every one knows is illegal, got into a physical altercation, and then used it. That's why the ruling happened the way it did.
I heavily, heavily dislike current knife and gun laws in the UK. I'm an avid shooter and am deeply pro-2A for the US, but the undeniable truth where I live (Scotland) is that our current laws have led to drastic drops in violent crime. That said, it hasn't worked particularly in English cities and they definitely need some rework because as always criminals will be criminals and normal citizens need to be able to defend themselves without legal repercussion, which is clearly the failing of this incident.
You can here, too, but I know that responsibility for my personal safety begins and ends with me during those extremely unlikely events. Better to be safe than sorry.
Prosecutor Andrew Jackson told jurors the pair had met three days earlier and Mr Jaskiewicz "hoped a relationship would develop".
After a night out at Solstice nightclub in the town, Ogonowska, Mr Jaskiewicz and two friends stopped at about 04:00 BST on 21 October in Oakdale Avenue, where an argument broke out the speed at which he had been driving.
Poland-born Ogonowska, of Peterborough, told the court she "got nervous, left the car and slammed the door".
But Mr Jaskiewicz followed her and grabbed her neck, forcing her to her knees, actions which Judge David Farrell QC described as an "assault".
The mother-of-one had said in evidence the pair returned to the car, where he "started to be aggressive towards me again" and tried to touch her breasts.
Judge Farrell said Ogonowska "became annoyed - you wanted attention and showed him the knife" she had been carrying over the course of the evening.
"You then, in anger, deliberately stabbed him intending to cause him at the very least really serious bodily harm," he told her. [End quote]
That article from the Guardian, by giving basically no information, is practically begging the reader to imagine a scenario in which she was randomly attacked by a stranger while alone in a carpark and stabbed him in self defence. I (and basically everybody, I assume) would agree that putting her in prison for 17 years for that would be insane, but that isn't what happened.
Yeah the judge agreed that it looked like self defense, the only reason it didn't qualify is because she brought a knife out with her - so it probably fell into premeditated
The judge expects people to conjure weapons out of thin air as needed? Or just say "freeze" to the attacker and run to the nearest kitchen and grab a knife? Does UK allow one to carry any sort of weapon for self defense, or do you have to rely on your fists alone? (If it's the latter, how are British women okay with this?)
I mean wouldn't this just be further in the progressive femenist field. As these women's rights activists consistently point out, going on date or having a pre-existing relationship with a man does not make rape any more consentual. He refused to stop and she defended herself.
So.... he assaulted and groped her? You're literally proving their points lol. This provides nothing to the contrary except maybe that it wasn't a random encounter.
Proving whose points? I'm not disputing the details of the case, in fact I'm the one giving the details of the case. My entire point is that the headline is vague and misleading.
In my country, unless someone intends to kill you, if you killed them in ''self defense'', you get the death punishment. Happened to a man whose family's house got broken into. He killed the thief. Police showed up and investigated, court ruled that he went overboard. The thief didn't even have a knife on him.
My main point is, yes sexual assault is bad, on anyone. But agree with the court on this one. You don't kill someone unless they threatened to kill you first. You can inflict non-fatal injuries but this girl went too far.
"You then, in anger, deliberately stabbed him intending to cause him at the very least really serious bodily harm," he told her."
Putting something in qoutes don't make it a fact, someone said that in court, they weren't there to determine if she killed him in rage or self defense.
Just pointing at a couple headlines is the most pointless shit ever. Woah, the daily mail had this headline that's shocking and bad. Like no shit man, there's always going to be some fucked up stories in any country.
The UK has a fraction of the number of homicides as the us, more freedom in bodily autonomy, more freedom in how to travel, etc...
Yeah the country has issues, but just pointing at random headlines like a soyjack doesn't help.
I looked up the first case. The issue is that the headline is inaccurate - it wasn't an act of self defence, which means it becomes homicide.
They were having a verbal argument, and she stabbed him. She then lied to detectives about what happened.
So the headline, 'as he was sexually assaulting her', is straight up fiction. Even if he had raped her some years ago, that doesn't mean she can kill him.
Rape is awful. But stabbing someone over an argument... Is not good.
Mr Jaskiewicz had “undoubtedly touched you sexually and was violent towards you” - but said there was “no reasonable self defence when you used a knife you brought to the scene”.
From the mouth of the judge, "you were getting violently sexually assaulted but you shouldn't have stabbed him or been carrying a knife in the first place". You're deliberately misrepresenting the case.
From the mouth of the judge, "you were getting violently sexually assaulted but you shouldn't have stabbed him or been carrying a knife in the first place".
The judge seems to be okay with the stabbing, just not that the stabbing was done with a knife she brought with her. You see, it's only self defense if you happen to find a random knife at the exact moment you get attacked. Preparedness negates self defense over there, I guess.
I mean if I bring a gun with me, start an argument with someone, then shoot them when they get violent - you can see how this doesn't fall into self defense.
Should this have been applied here? Maybe not. But you'll always get a few cases that slip through the cracks. How many innocent people have been executed by the us court system?
There are brandishing laws in the US. So you can't go around using your weapon to intimidate people. And you are still allowed to have arguments while armed. But if someone gets violent with you, then you are within your rights to defend yourself.
They care more about their narrative then they care about rape victims.
Her own testimony and two other witnesses showing it was clearly self defence yet she’ll spend over 3x the amount of time he’d have done if he’d raped her.
She met this guy 2 days earlier. They were going out with friends to some clubs. In a car with four people total, they started to argue. They had a long argument about some young people nonsense for a while. At some point, he put his hand on her leg, she pushed it away. He also allegedly put his hand on her breast, she pushed it away. He got out his phone and began texting someone. While he was texting, she stabbed him in the heart. She fled the scene. The touching may have been sexual assault, but this was not an attempted rape, and he wasn't touching her when she stabbed him.
The first rape case was also statutory rape. It was a consensual sexual relationship (minus the law not recognizing it as consensual, of course).
She murdered a guy because she was pissed. Not in self defense.
Yeah... if you kill a rapist in America, you definitely ain't going to jail for it. Lol. We have self-defense laws here. But apparently the UK doesn't. Good to know.
The girl stabbed the man over a verbal argument. The man did SA her by touching her breast, but the woman stabbed the man with the intent to kill and not self defense.
In order to kill in self defense, you would have to be threatened to be killed. That did not happen. The woman could have stabbed him once and ran, or inflict a non-fatal injury. But she stabbed him to death, and lied to investigators.
He physically and sexually assaulted her. At what point between being choked and groped should she have thought he wasn't trying to kill her? She was absolutely acting in self defense.
The reason is that she brought a knife with her, started an argument, then killed them when they got violent - you may disagree, but this slips out of self defense.
She didn't start the argument, or escelate to violence though. Like, no one disagrees on those points. She carried a weapon for self defense, and used it after he started hitting, choking, and groping her.
She stabbed him after they had an argument and after he tried to touch her breast. Not great behaviour, obviously, but far away from "you get 17 years for defending yourself while getting violently raped."
Before that had hit her, choked her and forced her to her knees before she left him at which point he followed after her in his car. When she got back in he “tried to touch her breast” at which point she stabbed him.
Judge: Mr Jaskiewicz had “undoubtedly touched you sexually and was violent towards you” - but said there was “no reasonable self defence when you used a knife you brought to the scene”.
I mean it's kinda fucked, but at the same time - if you bring a knife to someone's house, start an argument, then stab them when they become violent - you can see the argument for it not being self defence here.
Yeah maybe in this case you'd say self defence should apply, but having strict controls on weapons means we have a fraction of the homicide rate as you do in America. Personally I wouldn't want to be able to carry a gun around if it means I'm 10 times more likely to die.
They refer to the UK as “bongland” because of an old greentext joking about an American visiting the UK and the people referring to the time there as “x bongs” by the amount of chimes Big Ben makes, which sounds like a dong but is deeper in pitch so is a bit heavier sounding. For example, 10 bongs at 10am, 12 bongs at midday, etc.
The UK also accepts a lot of refugees, and has a large amount of immigration from many of its former colonies, now part of the commonwealth. India/bangladesh/pakistan are common immigrants. Bongladesh is an amalgamation of Bongland and Bangladesh, which appears to attempt to imply that the rapes are being caused by south Asian immigrants, though the article states the man accused of rape was polish born, of which there are also many immigrants in the UK.
She stabbed the man AFTER they had sex. Not during the the moment or even before it. When the deed was done, and they were just talking, she decided to stab him. Whether it was rape or not, this wasn't self defense.
By the way, David Farrell QC is the same coward who gave two men who pleaded guilty to raping an 11 year old a near minimum sentence of 3 years back in 2012. Someone should actually, unironically, beat this man to death.
Fuzzy_Engineering873@reddit
The only reason the court ruled the murder was not self defense is because she wasn’t supposed to have the knife, and I’m not following the logic. If someone tries to kill you and you shoot them with an illegal firearm, is that not simply an illegal firearms charge but still self defense?
DomSchraa@reddit
In a purely legal way
Killing # sexual assault
Hell, even when someone tries to kill you you have to stop immediately once they run away/are nolonger a threat to you, if you continue to attacm youll be charged too
As reductive and morally wrong that is, legally speaking killing someone with a weapon and the premeditated intent to atleast grievously injure the attacker is an escalation of violence
It wouldve been something different if she in the heat of the moment grabbed something lying around and killing him with that - that would be manslaughter
But her carrying the knife all night long is what makes this difficult in court
Fuzzy_Engineering873@reddit
She would only have managed to escape her attacker through use of a weapon which is why she possessed and used one. I’m not sure how carrying a weapon with which to defend yourself can be considered premeditated murder when someone tries to rape and possibly murder you, and you use it to escape.
The fact that her grabbing a weapon and killing him in her act of defense would be charged as manslaughter is equally ridiculous. The court has to be clearly biased against the defender considering that the alternative option for her would have been to be overpowered by a much stronger figure and raped/killed.
The fact that they were considering 25 years of imprisonment for this woman is absolutely insane considering her rapist would have probably gotten out 10 years earlier had he succeeded. The fact that the justice system failed this woman once before when she was 14, by not prosecuting her first rapist is a clear sign that the system is against this woman.
Nice_Category@reddit
Because they are mixing up preparedness and premeditated.
They don't seem to understand that you can carry a weapon for safety and have no plans to use it.
PlasmaHouses@reddit
Carrying an illegal weapon for self-defense means you’ve already decided to break the law in anticipation of a potential threat. That’s not just preparedness—it’s a preemptive willingness to commit a crime and potentially escalate to another. Even if your intent is protection, you’ve planned to act unlawfully should a certain situation arise. That crosses the line from passive preparedness into premeditation.
Nice_Category@reddit
I don't know how it is over in Londonstan. But that's certainly not the logic the US legal system uses.
DomSchraa@reddit
Using us law logic for a European country is peak brain
SikeSky@reddit
The Yuropeen law in this case is completely insane, so you might have to excuse us across the pond for assuming otherwise.
SikeSky@reddit
This leaves zero room for actual preparedness and effectively makes it illegal to take responsibility for preserving your own life.
DomSchraa@reddit
Preparedness wouldve been something legal. Which... Yeah is kinda hard cause most stuff is classified as an offensive weapon which means they are i l l e g a l to own carry or use
Again, if she just picked something random up from the street in a panic it wouldve been different, but she knowingly carried an illegal weapon and killed someone with it.
DomSchraa@reddit
What gives you the authority to say she couldve/did only escape cause of the weapon.
She has 2 working hands, feet, vocal cords and teeth.
All of those can do damage.
Again, the court might be biased, it might not. Per uk law she carried an illegal weapon with the intent to use it in the situation that happened and killed someone with it. That is what happened and what is relevant for the court. The sexual assault that did happen does not nullify the charges against her.
Is it morally speaking wrong? Yea. Can the judge do something against it? Unlikely. I dont know enough about UK law to say for certain that the judge could just overrule it and set a precedent for future similar cases.
I gotta drop the politeness for a sec, you claiming that her getting a manslaughter charge would still be overkill is just downright fucking dumb. Manslaughter is accidental killing. She did intent to hurt him. She did have the LAWFUL OBLIGATION to stop when he stopped attacking her.
"Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as "unlawful act" manslaughter.[9] It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughter."
OR
"Voluntary manslaughter is the killing of a human in which the offender acted in the heat of passion, a state that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed to the point that they cannot reasonably control their emotions. Voluntary manslaughter is one of two main types of manslaughter, the other being involuntary manslaughter."
Both these charges have the "imperfect defense" subcategory - basically excessive force. Which stabbing is.
Just cause a crime does happen to you doesnt mean youre free of all consequences until the crime is over.
HazelCheese@reddit
I believe in this case it was because she showed him the knife or something before she stabbed him. Like she showed it to him, walked off and then came back and stabbed him like she changed her mind or something.
JanetMock@reddit
Women voted for this.
Deldris@reddit
Women : We want to feel safe
Also women : Please ban any weapons that allow us to defend ourselves from a stronger attacker
Phenzo2198@reddit
also: Please import people from countries where women aren't allowed to show skin, because the men can't control themselves.
Peppin19@reddit
and that 99% of these refugees are men, not children, not old people, not women, only men of military age.
MikeGianella@reddit
"Population of military age" can be anywhere from 18 to 50. You are not being invaded, shithead.
SikeSky@reddit
You’re right, they’re being raped.
scoots-mcgoot@reddit
The rapist and victim in the top article’s case are both Polish. Can’t find info on the bottom article.
edgy_zero@reddit
oh look, an exception… so what
scoots-mcgoot@reddit
It means you’re stupid
DomSchraa@reddit
But muh racism!
Despite being on reddit this sub still has a population of shitheads.
Marik-X-Bakura@reddit
Idk it’s a pretty great thing we give people who have to deal with those laws a chance at a better life.
Prestigious-Fig1172@reddit
Also import more criminals from the 3rd world!
JanetMock@reddit
Also let in rapists who pose a danger to us because it pisses off white men.
zrezzif@reddit
Really? The biggest rate of immigration in the UK comes during the government of the conservatives, a party which have more male voters compared to female voters. What evidence do you have that “women voted for this”?
shangumdee@reddit
The British "tories" are totally spineless, that make even the most flaccid republican looks like they have more firm principles. The UK conservative politicians are largely a group of out of touch rich people who don't have to live nesr the average joe.
They cede the ground to the Labour party on almost every issue that isn't beneficial to the super rich.
zrezzif@reddit
That doesn’t change what I said though, the comment and reply that I disagree with is the fact that they think “women voted for it” when it comes to SA. Especially young women who wouldn’t touch the Tories with a 10 foot pole.
With that being said, I find this part of what you said amusing
If you think this doesn’t apply to you in the US, then I get a seafront property in Arizona to sell you.
When it comes to the policies that actually affect 90%+ of the population, such as the economic policies. The Tories have been gutting the NHS, kept the minimum wage low, and further strip the power of the unions. Don’t think that’s any different than the republican platform in the US. The only difference is that US republicans are either actually religious or keep up the facade of being religious. Hence why they pass conservative social policies, but those policies are just a front to siphon money to the super rich.
EveningDefinition631@reddit
What party is most responsible for the fact that you can't even carry pepper spray for self defense in the UK because it's considered an "offensive weapon"?
zrezzif@reddit
Conservatives again. This is a petition to allow pepper sprays to be carried legally, the conservative government at the time turned it down saying that “Government had no plans to make such sprays legal.”
So again, women overwhelmingly did not vote for this
Nice_Category@reddit
Memes are considered an offensive weapon over there.
_Tal@reddit
Are elections referendums on single issues or are they complex decisions between parties with many policies where you have to weigh the pros and cons of each?
Dd_8630@reddit
What women voted for this?
Bith individuals are Polish immigrants. He raped her at age 14. Then, at age 18, they had an argument and she stabbed him to death.
Do you think that should be legal?
_Tal@reddit
Where are you getting that it was just an “argument” the second time? The article from the post says she stabbed him as he tried to SA her again
Secure-Stick-4679@reddit
this is how supervillains are made
MikoMiky@reddit
Leftists voting for open border policies have fallen prey to dangerous neo-marxist ideologies.
The West has learned its lesson on authoritarian extreme right politics. Perhaps it can learn the next chapter now: "The Extreme Left and the dangers of Suicidal Empathy".
RomaAeternus@reddit
West didn't learn its lesson on neo-facist or neo-marxist ideology or politics and you are living proof, it seems dutch education system failed you.
StaryWolf@reddit
I'm sorry why are you under that impression when far right political parties and ideologies are being adopted across much of the western world?
Also what country do you think is currently on the "extreme Left"?
MikoMiky@reddit
Keep equating opposition to mass migration to extremism. That's been working out great for the political left.
Arguments like yours are why more and more people are more and more wary and aware of the dangers of extreme left neo-Marxism.
BadgerMolester@reddit
Labour has curbed immigration compared to the Tories - the right leaning party had way higher immigration than the "lefties". Your talking points are bullshit.
OldManChino@reddit
kek, meds time buddy
Maanifest@reddit
"Extreme Left Neo-Marxism" LOL
Last_Gift3597@reddit
Not a single far right political party has been adopted in the western world. Even the most right-wing political parties would've appeared liberal 10-20 years ago. Stop fear mongering over nothing.
DomSchraa@reddit
Trump
Le pen almost won
Afd & fpö are rising in germany & austria
The durch & swedes iirc elected right wingers
Fucking delusional.
Last_Gift3597@reddit
>Trump
Trump is deporting the same number of people each month as Biden was.
>Le pen, Afd & fpö
None of them are elected lmfao, they're all just moderately rightwing and appealing to common gripes people have about mass immigration. They won't do shit anyways since they prioritize corporate interest.
>durch & swedes iirc elected right wingers
Italy has also elected a "far-right" politician and exactly jack shit has happened.
Redditors are so fucking terrified of none-existent white supremacist death squads that you'll overlook how the rich use mass immigration to supress wages and increase living expenses. Or how illegal immigration from north Africa and the middle east is part of a huge human trafficking operation. But hey, diversity is a strength right?
Pathetic.
DomSchraa@reddit
Yeah just completely misrepresent what i said, goddamn when did the circus get here
I hope for your sake youre just trolling
StaryWolf@reddit
lol. Lmao even.
pingpongpiggie@reddit
Funny that immigration was higher under the Tory right wing government and only increased.
AyeItsEazy@reddit
It fucking sucks that both sides are trying to use smelly Indians for votes
Last_Gift3597@reddit
There is not a single party in western Europe that is socially conservative. They're all different flavours of liberal that are either more or less fiscally conservative. Even parties that appear 'far-right' on the topic of immigration like AFD will spread their asshole open to corporate interests, which means immigration will increase anyways. Europoors can only lose lmfao.
Viral_Fr0sty@reddit
These people watch neoliberal parties around the world enacting draconian laws,but irrelevant far right parties with no representation in parliament are to blame for the state of the country.
Mental_Jeweler_3191@reddit
Amen
I hate living in Sweden. There aren't any social conservatives to speak of here.
Just anomie and decadence.
MikoMiky@reddit
Almost like people have been decrying a globalist uni party that cares not for its constituents for decades.
scoots-mcgoot@reddit
4chan users and Redditors aren’t people
DomSchraa@reddit
When did you eecape the looney bin
"Neo Marxist ideologies" laughing my fucking ass of, any more buzz words you wanna throw in here?
Marik-X-Bakura@reddit
The vast majority of immigrants aren’t going around raping people, actually
Last_Gift3597@reddit
"left wing" and "right wing" are such useless fucking terms because nobody knows what they mean. An actual leftist party in Europe would clamp down hard on mass immigration because its benefits corporate/private interests the most at the expense of a countries native workers.
MikoMiky@reddit
Sad but true
scoots-mcgoot@reddit
Oh great a schizo found this thread
OceLawless@reddit
My man, please, touch some grass.
MikoMiky@reddit
Please open a book and educate yourself 🙏
OceLawless@reddit
A book on how dumb your ideas are? I promise, I've read it, mate.
You losers are all the same, lul. It's the only response you have. Like an npc.
Even worse, you all think your intellectual titans when you're just just a chronically online dildo with the reading comprehension of a brick.
I beg you. Touch grass kid.
roborbiettino@reddit
Me when I use big words that mean absolutely nothing
MikoMiky@reddit
Lmao pot calling the kettle black after neo-marxist forced their boring neologisms on the Western world for the last decade.
WintersbaneGDX@reddit
Peak reddit moment
MikoMiky@reddit
Yes, it's truly a Reddit since most of the victims are Redditors 😢
RevolutionaryEmu589@reddit
Billions must get raped
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Britoids be quick to yell about how we are constantly getting shot here in America but, you know what? I think I prefer that increased background risk to living somewhere where the state can let this happen.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
You think this doesn't happen in America?
Personal-Barber1607@reddit
State didn’t fail that girl they intentionally sacrificed her for the Bank of England the people who rule you bong landers.
Seriously every time I look into life in the EU I see the chains of slavery being tightly wound around your wrists.
Here people may live poor and destitute and without recourse needing to rely on the state, but at least here you can kill a man who rapes your sister in cold blood or breaks into your house.
Seriously that’s the last vestige of freedom the ability to defend oneself from violent law breakers without that your liberal society has failed entirely.
Egg_Yolkeo55@reddit
Are you just ignoring the rest of the context of that incident? It's the fact that she not only shot him twice in the head, proving it's not self defense, but burned his house down, took selfies with his corpse and then stole his BMW.
If he was in the act of actually attacking her when she shot him, she might have a self-defense claim. The context of this instance suggests that she waited for the incident to be over and then shot him after the fact which is illegal. Her actions after that were also illegal. It's a very unfortunate incident and I have a ton of empathy for this woman, but she did herself no favors after the death.
mootxico@reddit
"nooooo you can't shoot the guy who just raped you while he's in the middle of dressing up to leave! He's not actively harming you anymore so you're completely in the wrong for doing that!"
"Noooo you can't tackle the robber who just ransacked your home and turned his back against you as he leaves! He's no longer a threat and you're now being the aggressor! That'll be 5 years in jail for you 😤"
WojtekMroczek2137@reddit
Yes? State is solely responsible for justice
mootxico@reddit
This sort of mentality is why American stores keep getting boldly shoplifted
WojtekMroczek2137@reddit
America, country famous for people not self-defending and soft on crime policies
sixseven89@reddit
He deserved it tho
A jury of peers in the American south would let her off
only_for_browsing@reddit
Naw they'd recommend both be sent to Guatemala because they are foreigners
Razor265@reddit
Brother, you're not supposed to look into the truth, just read the article headlines and be outraged.
TargetDecent9694@reddit
I mean if the system failed you the first time, would you really go for round 2? I can’t say I blame her.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Nope, if you read a bit better you can quite clearly see where I acknowledged it as different.
But now try these two:
This one.
Or this one.
Egg_Yolkeo55@reddit
"a bit wrong"
The incidents might as well not even be related. If this woman killed a rapist, she likely wouldn't be in prison. It's the fact that she burned the guy's house down, took selfies with his corpse and then stole his car. That is pretty fucking massive context dude
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Ha, and now you're just going to keep going down this line instead of responding to the other examples because it's what you can argue.
Got a 3rd one for you too.
afbmonk@reddit
I’ll take over for them. For your third source: “The detective further asserted that Brown told the neighbor that the killing was a "fat lick" (robbery) and that she had been ‘waiting on a lick like that all week.’” She shot the man, stole $176 from his wallet, two firearms, and his truck and then left without ever going to the police. Had she stolen his wallet and went straight to the police with it to report him it would be a different story.
She would later go on to have her sentence commuted not because there was any argument that she didn’t do what she was convicted of, but because the governor who did said it was a “complex case” and that her sentence was too harsh for a minor.
So, again, picking a person who shot and killed someone to rob them and tried to use the context of being solicited (devils advocate: some women knowingly go into prostitution and there’s no way to state with certainty that she did not consent to sex as far as the murder victim was concerned) as justification for why she should be found innocent. Clearly the jury thought she murdered and then robbed him.
Karpsten@reddit
Well, but you see, she is black. That would never happen to white women in the US, you know?
Invulnerablility@reddit
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Sure it can happen but the US is way more gung ho about lethal force than the UK. I'll take my chances here.
lord_foob@reddit
I would rather not have to just let someone rape me than you. If you dont like pick pockets, dont go to Paris if you dont like creeps, Avoid britian
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Your chances being "taken" are literally worse than they are in the UK lol.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
My local law enforcement would prefer I shoot my attackers than not, saves them paperwork. Nah.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Your own mind would prefer to kill someone than use proportional force, don't pass the blame onto someone else "oh well they said I should just shoot them".
You're going to go through far more of a process if you kill someone in self-defence than if you'd just physically restrained them and called the police. Obviously if they have lethal force it's a different matter but that's not the majority of cases.
forgettfulthinker@reddit
"Physically restrained them" hard to do when they are already strong enough to rape you dumbass
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
If you're able to kill them then you're in the position of power already, hence why the argument generally goes that you should have used that opportunity to do something that isn't taking a life.
Wantitneeditgetit@reddit
A gun doesn't have a stun setting bro. If you pull a gun and they continue aggression or if that's the only tool you have on you and you're already being assaulted then they're getting shot and they might die and that's not on you at that point
Unless your gun is illegal in which case you'll face charges for that.
forgettfulthinker@reddit
Holy shit you are a dumbass do you know how much harder it is to restrain someone physically than it is to shoot them
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Killing is proportional force to rape.
You can break out of restraints. You can't break out of being dead.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
The courts generally seem to disagree. If you're in a position to kill someone you're in a position to either incaoacitiate them non-lethally, get them away from you or to run/hide away.
Hence why it's treated a lot more severely.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Not here.
Retreat isn't a requirement where I live. Nor should it be. It's not a requirement in most of the US, really, and threat of serious harm is justification for lethal force everywhere.
Restraining somebody is more dangerous than just shooting them, and we are not obligated to expose ourselves to increased risk for the benefit of our attackers here. Here that's the legal rule. The moral rule is universal, but not always respected.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
You keep saying "not here" like I can't find examples of them disagreeing with you "here".
And then we go in circles where you pretend that it happens less as if there's stats on that sort of thing and as if it's meant to minimise the fact that it can happen in the US.
Eh, no. Threat of lethal force is justification for lethal force everywhere. Anything less and you need to try a bit harder to excuse it.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Sure. Courts get it wrong sometimes.
No. The common law test (codified in all states by statute) permit lethal force for some variation of nonlethal threat. In California, for example, they permit it for great bodily injury. In Pennsylvania, conversely, they permit it for substantial bodily injury, kidnapping, abd forcible sexual intercourse. Same legal test, same quantum of proof.
More complex fact patterns of any kind are harder to litigate, sure, but I don't think that's the argument you are making here.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Which means you're better off in the UK where the same thing can happen but you're less likely to be killed.
Or did you forget your argument was "I'd rather be in the US and risk dying than be in the UK and get failed by the state"?
Goddamnpassword@reddit
This lady stabbed someone actively trying to rape her.
Chrystul Kizer, left the home of her sex trafficker, got a gun, retuned to his home shot him twice, set his corpse on fire, stole his car and only claimed self defense/reported the shooting to police after found her in the stolen car.
One is self defense one is vigilantism at best.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Okay? Then try this one.
Or this one.
Goddamnpassword@reddit
First one she “That night, Gonzales-McLinn drugged Sasko’s drink, bound his wrists and ankles, and killed him by cutting his neck with a hunting knife.
She wrote the word “freedom” in his blood on a wall before driving away.
She was captured in Florida. She did not disclose the nature of her relationship with Sasko to authorities then.”
Second one “Brooks raped her again, she said in her plea, and when he fell asleep, she found a knife on his nightstand and stabbed him until he was dead.”
Stabbing someone when they are asleep/drugged is not self defense. It just isn’t and again not comparable to stabbing someone mid rape.
Maybe they both deserve lessened sentences, and it sounds like the first might get clemency. But they both engaged in vigilantism/revenge not self defense.
5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi@reddit
Alright then, she (the girl in the OP) engaged in pre-meditated assault when she brought a knife with her to the scene of the attempted rape. Which means none of you should have an issue with this verdict seeing as you're excusing every other time it happens based on the fact that they hadn't literally picked up a weapon and killed their attacker mid-assault.
Crunkario@reddit
“Pre-meditated assault when she brought a knife with her”
I mean this in the nicest way, are you trolling? Thats the only explanation I have for this take.
Wantitneeditgetit@reddit
The point is that if you have the option to leave the dangerous situation it's not self defense. The woman in OP stabbed her assailant in order to escape, your examples are of women stabbing their assailant instead of escaping.
For the love of God if you ever go to court get a lawyer because things like semantics and context actually do matter in courts.
Now this is a greentext post of a picture of a news article so I can't say I'm not making a bunch of assumptions including that it happened at all because Brit domestic news is heavily biased depending on the source but honestly that's irrelevant to the conversation being had.
To wit, that your examples are clearly not of self defense and that using an illegal weapon in self defense doesn't clear you of the charge of having an illegal weapon because I just remembered Britain has knife laws and if OP girl stabbed the dude with an illegal knife she could still go to jail for that.
MrBones-Necromancer@reddit
Second one sounds like self defence to me. Raped multiple times, used a knife as a means to escape. If she had tried to leave and he woke up, she would have been beaten, killed, or raped again. She made to right choice.
maggiemayfish@reddit
No she didn't. She stabbed somebody after he tried to touch her breast. (Her words)
soobnar@reddit
Hot take: unchecked state power bad wherever
Lannes51st@reddit
This and worse happens in the states. With the added danger of guns.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
The legal test for self defense in every state is more permissive than the UK.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Holy shit 🤦♂️
Your comment is a testament to your country’s failed education system
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
I dunno, man, I have a terminal degree, seems to be working fine.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Your comment above speaks to the contrary
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
No, it speaks to a different set of values. I would rather live somewhere where the law governing self defense is not punitive when it is actually needed.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
You are deluded if you think your state doesn’t do just this and worse to your citizens.
Why is it you have the most incarcerated people in the whole world? Oh yes, your freedoms lmao.
You were fed a shit sandwich and told it was ham and you believed it.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
I'm familiar with the case law on self defense here, and can tell it's significantly easier to argue.
Literally not an argument I raised.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
No because it’s an argument I’m raising lmao
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Well if you want to knock down strawman arguments irrelevant to my comment, be my guest. It sounds like you need the easy W, so go right ahead.
If you want to engage in the topic actually raised, please feel free.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Your answer to why you have the most incarcerated people in the world is because… that’s a strawman
Lmao
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
It's quite clearly a conversation on comparable self defense laws. My comment explicitly concedes that there's a greater risk of being the victim of gun violence in the US.
Are you feeling alright?
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
There’s a greater risk of being the victim of any kind of violence in the us, is my point.
You cannot discuss self defence laws without discussing violence.
Are YOU okay, for not seeing the clear connections between my points and yours?
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
That point isn't in contention.
That point isn't in contention.
You've yet to make an argument that we are at odds with, dude. I'm baffled by your defensiveness. You led off by impugning my intelligence based on points not raised, and I'm missing the connections here? Do you just need to rant a bit about how bad America is? Is that it?
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
Hey man, if you want to feel safer in a country, that by all metrics is a worse place to be than the country you’re ragging on, you’re fully entitled to feel safe due to your self defence laws.
I just think that that stance is entirely deluded. Which you are clearly having trouble wrapping your head around.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
I certainly prefer it here to my time over there.
No, I understand your position. The idea that I might value what is valued in the US over what is valued in the UK clearly confuses and possibly even threatens you. I just dont think it's remotely relevant to the statements I'm making. A difference in values isn't a question of intelligence.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
I am not confused or threatened lmao, I’ve quite clearly stated I think you are deluded.
Especially when you assert that a persons values don’t tie into their intelligence. Just more delusions lmao
You know of any redkneck Mensa carrying democrat voters? 🤣
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Buddy, two equally intelligent people can look at the same set of facts and arrive at very different conclusions about what matters most, not because one of them failed to understand, but because they weigh priorities differently. People arent dumber than you for preferring something different.
The redneck mensa guys i knew voted republican. Three were Louisiana chemical engineers working in oil refining and one is a South Carolina based patent lawyer. Can't say as I met a Democrat mensa holder before, though I've little doubt they exist.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
And that proves a persons values doesn’t tie into their intelligence how exactly? Oh wait, it doesn’t. I never said it was the be all end all buddy, but it certainly ties into it and is one of many factors, if that helps your brain parse what I’m saying :)
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Bro took what I wrote and just said "nuh uh" like it's an argument lol
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
No, I laid out why your statements didn’t prove anything, and I’ll do it again.
Because you were arguing as if I’d said a persons intelligence is integral to their personal values and not what I’d actually said, that it ties into them.
That’s a longer explanation of what I wrote above but if you read all that and your brain boiled it down to “Nuh uh” that is on nothing but your own delusions my guy
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Buddy, see Id.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
I’d? What?
🤷🏻♂️
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Yeah my education system failed me. Lmao.
Smelldicks@reddit
I don’t disagree with you but the way you talk is skin crawling. It’s like a 14 year old who just saw their first Michael Moore documentary.
SirGaylordSteambath@reddit
Oookay buddy
Dyn-Jarren@reddit
Delusional comment.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
U got a loicense to post that, m8??!
Vivid-Smell-6375@reddit
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 HOLY KEKARINO 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
unknown_pigeon@reddit
Judiciary system is faulty
This guy, somehow: "God I'm so lucky that I can just shoot people, God bless America 🇺🇸🦅"
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Shooting your attacker is a moral good, friendo.
joevarny@reddit
Said every school shooter..
unknown_pigeon@reddit
Yeah, as long as the attack effectively happened
The tradeoff is that someone road raging at you can just get their glock and turn you into Swiss cheese, but I guess it's worth it
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Glad we agree that lethal force is a very appropriate response to an attack.
Your risk of being the victim of a crime is low but never zero, correct. This has no bearing on the appropriateness of applying bullets to an attacker.
unknown_pigeon@reddit
Depends on the attack? Not everyone is cowboy enough to kill someone because they touched their breasts, but you do you (and I'm glad you don't write laws)
Dd_8630@reddit
Rape and knife crimes are just as common in the US as the UK.
The US just has gun violence on top of the standard background of knife and sexual violence.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Self defense is a lot easier a claim here. Believe it or not, i'm not taking a position based on gun law, but self defense law in general
ElChunko998@reddit
If you kill someone with an illegal firearm in the US, even in self defence, you’re still going to get tried for using the illegal firearm.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
What do you think constitutes an illegal firearm here?
My argument is agnostic to weapon type.
Very few firearms would be "illegal" here if the defender wasn't a convicted felon regardless.
ElChunko998@reddit
The issue the court has here is the possession of the knife. That's what disrupts the self-defence claim, in the same way someone in the US with something like an unregistered firearm, or someone who lacked a CCW permit in states where you require one would have their case of self-defence approached differently. The courts would ask "why did you leave the house with the gun if you knew it was illegal?" - that was my point.
Knives are illegal to carry (outside of a professional or technical capacity i.e. builders or campers) because every criminal claimed self defence. I disagree with that, but its what has been taken to issue here. She chose to leave the house with something every one knows is illegal, got into a physical altercation, and then used it. That's why the ruling happened the way it did.
I heavily, heavily dislike current knife and gun laws in the UK. I'm an avid shooter and am deeply pro-2A for the US, but the undeniable truth where I live (Scotland) is that our current laws have led to drastic drops in violent crime. That said, it hasn't worked particularly in English cities and they definitely need some rework because as always criminals will be criminals and normal citizens need to be able to defend themselves without legal repercussion, which is clearly the failing of this incident.
Steve_3vets@reddit
i love living in a non shithole country where i can walk unarmed and not get shot, stabbed or raped
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
You can here, too, but I know that responsibility for my personal safety begins and ends with me during those extremely unlikely events. Better to be safe than sorry.
WietGetal@reddit
Idk of you are currently roasting USA or the UK lol
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Rape happens in the US just as frequently. Are you sure that tradeoff is worth it?
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Way easier to argue self defense in this country.
GuaranteeAfter@reddit
Unless you're a child in school.....
MisterGoo@reddit
Right, because your state not giving you universal healthcare is not failing you every second…
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
My healthcare is squared away for life for free, I don't need to worry about it.
LoweJ@reddit
In the US the shooters just get put on paid leave and then cleared of wrong doing and allowed to patrol again
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
The state sanctioned ones, yes, but I wasnt talking about pigs.
Massive-Anoose@reddit
Glad you’re alright with kids getting shot to death in school, unbelievable ahahahah
Arstanishe@reddit
you man moving to bongladesh?
kartocount@reddit
The rapist had a license?
maggiemayfish@reddit
There is so much context missing from that headline and article that it's actually kind of insane
JustaguynamedTheo@reddit
Give more context then.
maggiemayfish@reddit
From a BBC article:
Prosecutor Andrew Jackson told jurors the pair had met three days earlier and Mr Jaskiewicz "hoped a relationship would develop".
After a night out at Solstice nightclub in the town, Ogonowska, Mr Jaskiewicz and two friends stopped at about 04:00 BST on 21 October in Oakdale Avenue, where an argument broke out the speed at which he had been driving.
Poland-born Ogonowska, of Peterborough, told the court she "got nervous, left the car and slammed the door".
But Mr Jaskiewicz followed her and grabbed her neck, forcing her to her knees, actions which Judge David Farrell QC described as an "assault".
The mother-of-one had said in evidence the pair returned to the car, where he "started to be aggressive towards me again" and tried to touch her breasts.
Judge Farrell said Ogonowska "became annoyed - you wanted attention and showed him the knife" she had been carrying over the course of the evening.
"You then, in anger, deliberately stabbed him intending to cause him at the very least really serious bodily harm," he told her. [End quote]
That article from the Guardian, by giving basically no information, is practically begging the reader to imagine a scenario in which she was randomly attacked by a stranger while alone in a carpark and stabbed him in self defence. I (and basically everybody, I assume) would agree that putting her in prison for 17 years for that would be insane, but that isn't what happened.
Incredibly shoddy work from the Guardian, imo
MrBones-Necromancer@reddit
Sounds like she did, in fact, stab someone who was sexually assaulting her. Headline checks out to me.
BadgerMolester@reddit
Yeah the judge agreed that it looked like self defense, the only reason it didn't qualify is because she brought a knife out with her - so it probably fell into premeditated
edgy_zero@reddit
guess she should go and buy the knife after she assaulted her… the logic there is crazy
thoughtlow@reddit
Premeditated selfdefense 😡
Lienutus@reddit
Judge’s thoughts unironically
mysixthredditaccount@reddit
The judge expects people to conjure weapons out of thin air as needed? Or just say "freeze" to the attacker and run to the nearest kitchen and grab a knife? Does UK allow one to carry any sort of weapon for self defense, or do you have to rely on your fists alone? (If it's the latter, how are British women okay with this?)
maggiemayfish@reddit
Yes. Technically, the headline is not an outright lie. Good for them.
shangumdee@reddit
I mean wouldn't this just be further in the progressive femenist field. As these women's rights activists consistently point out, going on date or having a pre-existing relationship with a man does not make rape any more consentual. He refused to stop and she defended herself.
WebSufficient8660@reddit
So.... he assaulted and groped her? You're literally proving their points lol. This provides nothing to the contrary except maybe that it wasn't a random encounter.
maggiemayfish@reddit
Proving whose points? I'm not disputing the details of the case, in fact I'm the one giving the details of the case. My entire point is that the headline is vague and misleading.
JelliF1sh@reddit
No, I’d say the headline just about got it right.
maggiemayfish@reddit
I mean, if you want to be pedantic, the headline should be "...stabbed after trying to sexually assault her". So no, not really
BigHatPat@reddit
as an American, this makes the story kinda funny
TomatoSpecialist6879@reddit
KazakiriKaoru@reddit
In my country, unless someone intends to kill you, if you killed them in ''self defense'', you get the death punishment. Happened to a man whose family's house got broken into. He killed the thief. Police showed up and investigated, court ruled that he went overboard. The thief didn't even have a knife on him.
My main point is, yes sexual assault is bad, on anyone. But agree with the court on this one. You don't kill someone unless they threatened to kill you first. You can inflict non-fatal injuries but this girl went too far.
AlestaersMidlife@reddit
Cuck
Shumwayh@reddit
Are you qouting cross examination dog?
"You then, in anger, deliberately stabbed him intending to cause him at the very least really serious bodily harm," he told her." Putting something in qoutes don't make it a fact, someone said that in court, they weren't there to determine if she killed him in rage or self defense.
maggiemayfish@reddit
No
Alarakion@reddit
Yeah but people won’t really go past their pre-conceived notions
StaryWolf@reddit
I suspect that is intentional.
Matty221998@reddit
Because stabbing her assaulter is Islamophobic
RedRevanchist@reddit
he was Polish
SnooRadishes6032@reddit
They need more culture and diversity. Not enough murdering heckin wholesome migranterinos :)
yolo_king_1@reddit
Meanwhile in America:
BadgerMolester@reddit
Just pointing at a couple headlines is the most pointless shit ever. Woah, the daily mail had this headline that's shocking and bad. Like no shit man, there's always going to be some fucked up stories in any country.
The UK has a fraction of the number of homicides as the us, more freedom in bodily autonomy, more freedom in how to travel, etc...
Yeah the country has issues, but just pointing at random headlines like a soyjack doesn't help.
Alex_Red455@reddit
Bot
Dd_8630@reddit
I looked up the first case. The issue is that the headline is inaccurate - it wasn't an act of self defence, which means it becomes homicide.
They were having a verbal argument, and she stabbed him. She then lied to detectives about what happened.
So the headline, 'as he was sexually assaulting her', is straight up fiction. Even if he had raped her some years ago, that doesn't mean she can kill him.
Rape is awful. But stabbing someone over an argument... Is not good.
why43curls@reddit
From the mouth of the judge, "you were getting violently sexually assaulted but you shouldn't have stabbed him or been carrying a knife in the first place". You're deliberately misrepresenting the case.
Nice_Category@reddit
The judge seems to be okay with the stabbing, just not that the stabbing was done with a knife she brought with her. You see, it's only self defense if you happen to find a random knife at the exact moment you get attacked. Preparedness negates self defense over there, I guess.
BadgerMolester@reddit
I mean if I bring a gun with me, start an argument with someone, then shoot them when they get violent - you can see how this doesn't fall into self defense.
Should this have been applied here? Maybe not. But you'll always get a few cases that slip through the cracks. How many innocent people have been executed by the us court system?
Nice_Category@reddit
There are brandishing laws in the US. So you can't go around using your weapon to intimidate people. And you are still allowed to have arguments while armed. But if someone gets violent with you, then you are within your rights to defend yourself.
Augustus_Chevismo@reddit
They care more about their narrative then they care about rape victims.
Her own testimony and two other witnesses showing it was clearly self defence yet she’ll spend over 3x the amount of time he’d have done if he’d raped her.
Freedom-Unhappy@reddit
The ragebait titles around this case are insane.
She met this guy 2 days earlier. They were going out with friends to some clubs. In a car with four people total, they started to argue. They had a long argument about some young people nonsense for a while. At some point, he put his hand on her leg, she pushed it away. He also allegedly put his hand on her breast, she pushed it away. He got out his phone and began texting someone. While he was texting, she stabbed him in the heart. She fled the scene. The touching may have been sexual assault, but this was not an attempted rape, and he wasn't touching her when she stabbed him.
The first rape case was also statutory rape. It was a consensual sexual relationship (minus the law not recognizing it as consensual, of course).
She murdered a guy because she was pissed. Not in self defense.
LoneRedditor123@reddit
Yeah... if you kill a rapist in America, you definitely ain't going to jail for it. Lol. We have self-defense laws here. But apparently the UK doesn't. Good to know.
KazakiriKaoru@reddit
Headline is deceiving.
The girl stabbed the man over a verbal argument. The man did SA her by touching her breast, but the woman stabbed the man with the intent to kill and not self defense.
In order to kill in self defense, you would have to be threatened to be killed. That did not happen. The woman could have stabbed him once and ran, or inflict a non-fatal injury. But she stabbed him to death, and lied to investigators.
MrBones-Necromancer@reddit
He physically and sexually assaulted her. At what point between being choked and groped should she have thought he wasn't trying to kill her? She was absolutely acting in self defense.
BadgerMolester@reddit
The reason is that she brought a knife with her, started an argument, then killed them when they got violent - you may disagree, but this slips out of self defense.
MrBones-Necromancer@reddit
She didn't start the argument, or escelate to violence though. Like, no one disagrees on those points. She carried a weapon for self defense, and used it after he started hitting, choking, and groping her.
Ds3-is-shit@reddit
TND will fix that
Vivid-Smell-6375@reddit
😍
Stlr_Mn@reddit
Britain where you get 17 years for defending yourself while getting violently raped. What a fucking joke.
“Fucking take your rape with a smile on your face” joke of a country
maggiemayfish@reddit
She stabbed him after they had an argument and after he tried to touch her breast. Not great behaviour, obviously, but far away from "you get 17 years for defending yourself while getting violently raped."
Stlr_Mn@reddit
Before that had hit her, choked her and forced her to her knees before she left him at which point he followed after her in his car. When she got back in he “tried to touch her breast” at which point she stabbed him.
Judge: Mr Jaskiewicz had “undoubtedly touched you sexually and was violent towards you” - but said there was “no reasonable self defence when you used a knife you brought to the scene”.
It’s a joke legal system in a joke society
BadgerMolester@reddit
I mean it's kinda fucked, but at the same time - if you bring a knife to someone's house, start an argument, then stab them when they become violent - you can see the argument for it not being self defence here.
Yeah maybe in this case you'd say self defence should apply, but having strict controls on weapons means we have a fraction of the homicide rate as you do in America. Personally I wouldn't want to be able to carry a gun around if it means I'm 10 times more likely to die.
morbnowhere@reddit
Wait, she got in his car?
Mental_Jeweler_3191@reddit
"Stare up into the ceiling and think of England."
FMC_Speed@reddit
This is really depressing
the_bush_doctor@reddit
You know it’s bad when you have 4chan taking a feminist stand.
MrBones-Necromancer@reddit
Despite contrary belief, you can be an asshole and still be against rape.
We may be the lowest of men, but we're not goddamn animals.
Alexware3@reddit
Everyone love liberal policies
DJIsSuperCool@reddit
Liberal =\= restrictions on weapons
Alexware3@reddit
Justin Trudeau disagrees with you lmao
DJIsSuperCool@reddit
Have you considered that parties don't only pass legislature that 100% matches their name?
Alexware3@reddit
Find me one liberal party currently that isnt full on gun control.
BigHatPat@reddit
the Democratic party (US)
DJIsSuperCool@reddit
What defines "full on" gun control?
BigHatPat@reddit
the Conservative party had majority control for 14 years my guy
Asylumset@reddit
what does bangladesh mean
FallenSegull@reddit
They refer to the UK as “bongland” because of an old greentext joking about an American visiting the UK and the people referring to the time there as “x bongs” by the amount of chimes Big Ben makes, which sounds like a dong but is deeper in pitch so is a bit heavier sounding. For example, 10 bongs at 10am, 12 bongs at midday, etc.
The UK also accepts a lot of refugees, and has a large amount of immigration from many of its former colonies, now part of the commonwealth. India/bangladesh/pakistan are common immigrants. Bongladesh is an amalgamation of Bongland and Bangladesh, which appears to attempt to imply that the rapes are being caused by south Asian immigrants, though the article states the man accused of rape was polish born, of which there are also many immigrants in the UK.
Asylumset@reddit
thank you for the thorough description
neoqueto@reddit
Had to do a double take
foxbat-31@reddit
Bangladesh W for once
AyeItsEazy@reddit
The entire raj is an area of only Ls
🤮
AyeItsEazy@reddit
I mean the ENTIRE British raj is creepy perverts incels and losers. I’d rather be a a Ugandan then a rajer
bisky12@reddit
they went so far right they went left
Routine-Professor586@reddit
She stabbed the man AFTER they had sex. Not during the the moment or even before it. When the deed was done, and they were just talking, she decided to stab him. Whether it was rape or not, this wasn't self defense.
OrdinaryPenquin@reddit
By the way, David Farrell QC is the same coward who gave two men who pleaded guilty to raping an 11 year old a near minimum sentence of 3 years back in 2012. Someone should actually, unironically, beat this man to death.
DomSchraa@reddit
The charge probably is for the killing by stabbing part when she (N O T MY WORDS) couldve just used pepperspray or let it happen
Courts are about justice, and that doesnt always overlap with being just, sadly
Consistent_Ant_8903@reddit
Disgraceful, knoifin eachother is part of our great culcha
inconspicuous_browsr@reddit
Now av yo self some delicious baked beans
Dd_8630@reddit
Can someone translate this? I thought I was down with the kids but this is straight up foreign language
slowlikemusic@reddit
This isn't just a UK problem, its a worldwide issue. Women aren't believed, or rapists simply get off easy.
Phenzo2198@reddit
Oi! That tommy robinson is a right menace he is! He's inciting hate against those groomin gangs n such!
JustaguynamedTheo@reddit
What a fucking joke.
StaryWolf@reddit
Who is this?
bmcgowan89@reddit
That's pretty good 😂