How many security people does it really take...

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MeucciLawless@reddit

You'd be better off getting together with neighbors or most of the people living in your town etc.. roaming bandits could be a lot of people and it would take a large organized militia to secure a big area , it would take a lot of food with rationing etc.

Read One second after series by William R. Forstchen for some ideas of what it could look like in a SHTF situation

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SEClaw-4007@reddit

One Second After is a great prepper series.

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ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

My take on our rural site security is to automate as much as possible; remote intrusion sensors, security cameras, drones (including UAV/RPV w/ night vision/thermal), etc...and utilize bullet resistant stealthy 'hides' with high power optics, Thermal, I², etc with suppressed DMR, .50 BMG, belt-feds, etc to establish a stand-off distance combined with natural & man-made barriers (including razor wire, etc) ..along with a 24/7 QRF if ever needed.

So minimal actual 24/7 security personnel, but can project overwhelming force if ever needed...with minimal exposure of site personnel to lethal force if a predatory incursion were to occur...day or night. In essence the ability to assess a likely threat well before it can assess us...and respond accordingly.

Of course; if faced with armor, air support, crew served weapons, artillery, etc... that totally changes the paradigm.

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Alone_Reaction_9443@reddit

You couldn’t pay me to put most modern security cameras on my property. You have no idea who exactly has access to them even if you read all the fine print. I genuinely think anything with a camera or microphone that can connect to the internet is more of a liability than anything.

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ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

If you want to go down that rabbit hole; a modern smartphone is even worse. Unless you are a hermit living off the grid in the deep forest, the Surveillance Society is a fact of life.

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Alone_Reaction_9443@reddit

I absolutely agree. But it’s easier to stash your smartphone somewhere as needed than it is to disable all your security cameras often. Specifically talking about the Ring type home security stuff.

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barascr@reddit

😐😐😐😐

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elitodd@reddit

If the United States has collapsed to this extent, the bad news is that there won’t be enough consistent grip power/diesel/dedicated employees to maintain every single one of our nuclear reactors. They are all melting down; and you are probably done for.

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thundersnow211@reddit (OP)

Yeah, but I'm not very close to a reactor and I'd have to be pretty unlucky for the wind to blow fallout to me.

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MeanBart@reddit

I've contemplated this many times....for me...biggest threat is enemy coming at us from big cities say 50 ar a time. Would have to have a huge support/surveillance network and protect about 20 miles around. Protecting farms that have food and create food. Overwatches to give warnings 24/7, the same plan for other towns near and have a mutual aid plan as well. Gas would be limited to those on patrol and when called for backup to thwart gangs....can't just do it yourself...perhaps in mountains with only 1 way in..but...that would be rough....

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DynamoDynamite@reddit

You can't stay somewhere you need to defend with patrols. Period.

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Responsible-Annual21@reddit

There’s a book by Fernando Aguirre about living through the Argentine economic collapse. I read it a long time ago.. I should probably read it again..

At any rate, you’re going to want to look into something called the three rings concept of security. Essentially, you have 3 layers of security with each layer becoming more secure. For a rural farm this is a fence around the house (one ring), the house itself (second ring), and finally, a room within the house (third ring).

You should also look into security through environmental design. There’s ways we can position things and use the environment for security.

Once you’ve analyzed these things then you’ll have an idea of how many people you need to secure it.

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AffectionateRadio356@reddit

My big disagreement here is how you've established rings. You do not want to presupposes fighting inside or even from your home.

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Responsible-Annual21@reddit

True, but not everyone has the space or money to build layers and layers of fencing or other security means. most people can build a fence, harden their home, and find a secure place within the home to defend from if they need to.

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AffectionateRadio356@reddit

Agreed. However, I'm not giving advice like "build more fences" im saying "don't plan to fight from your home or inside it unless forced to do so."

If someone owns a small farm and it's the end of days, they likely have a shovel. Imo you'd be better served digging. Dug in fighting positions can be made by anybody, are harder to observe from the outside, and provide good cover and concealment. Plus, they're free, outside of some sweat.

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personman_76@reddit

But then if you have to fall back, those dug in positions are now positions for those assaulting you are they not?

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Gustav55@reddit

Not if they're constructed properly, you make the back lower than the front and make sure they are visible from the position to the rear and they won't be very useful.

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Kiss_and_Wesson@reddit

Unless the water table is high. Fighting front a hole full of muddy water and clay soup is a non-starter.

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AffectionateRadio356@reddit

Sure but then fill sand bags or pile up mud and make a little brick-ish wall. Do something instead of fighting from your home.

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bendallf@reddit

Would all that extra fencing just make you a bigger target? Would it be better to build an underground shelter without anything on the surface so no one knows you are even there? Thanks.

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Responsible-Annual21@reddit

I think most people don’t need layers of fencing, but I do think everyone needs at least one fence. You need to have a visible, physical barrier, at a minimum. It’s practical and it’s a deterrent.

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bendallf@reddit

Interesting. When the police are no longer able to respond to calls for help because they are protecting their own family, what is supposed to stop someone from cutting or pushing down that fence to steal what is inside the house? Thanks.

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Responsible-Annual21@reddit

You. You are that something that stops people from pushing down the fence and coming into your house. You are your own first responder.

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bendallf@reddit

Exactly. I want to say that but I am scared that Reddit will block me again. All it takes is a mod disagree with you and you are blocked with any recourse whatsoever. Thanks.

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HazMatsMan@reddit

Our information shows you have had no moderator actions against you in this subreddit. If you're being sanctioned by Reddit, the moderators have no control over that.

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bendallf@reddit

I used to love reddit a lot. Long story short. I am Jewish. So I follow Israel sub until a reddit mod there said that I was a bot and ask for verification from me. I asked what type of verification they needed to help make sure that I was a person and not a bot. I talk a little bit about myself. I was blocked and told not to contact them again. I am blocked from the Israel sub. I was also banned from reddit entirely for three days. I filled a formal complaint for religious discrimination to reddit online. Reddit never got back to me. What a mess. Sadly, there is no current alternative to reddit. Thoughts? Thanks for your help. Take care.

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MoooooveOva@reddit

Gosh the comment i would naturally make here would likely get me banned too

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bendallf@reddit

Thats the thing. I don't know what I said that made that mod so angry at me because the mod just said I was a bot, did not allow me to explain who I was and then blocked me. Not a way to run a social media website at all.

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hidden_name_2259@reddit

The fence is more of an ethical concern at that point. If the outsider is polite, they will not cross the fence. If the outsider crosses the fence, you no longer have an obligation to be polite either... and you have home field advantage.

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bendallf@reddit

Good point. I did not understand that fact at first. Thanks.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

It's a truism that, unless a physical barrier is actually defended, there's not much to keep it from being removed by someone.

Alarms, cameras, etc are simple and inexpensive nowadays (and primitive solutions that don't need electricity also can work) and make this vastly easier.

This is part of why this kind of SHTF-security strongly favors groups that are not tiny.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

Practical, comfortable underground shelters are tricky business. And unless your life -- both in prepping and everyday life is somehow made to revolve completely around being hidden there will always be something on the surface.

That doesn't mean you can't conceal stuff or keep a place from looking valuable. But I don't think this is realistic.

It's normal for places to have fences. I don't think that fences would be terribly remarkable unless rather extravagant.

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South_Fork@reddit

I have a 4ft fence (no climb) installed around my property and a gate at the entrance. It’s really just there to keep my dogs safe so they don’t run out on the highway. It’s amazing though how much a gate and fence stops people. With the gate, someone would have to get out, thus exposing them. Yes they could drive through it, but as we are not in a SHTF scenario it stops most people. It makes them think. Am I on camera? Is the gate locked? Are there other options to get through. With 4ft no climb it will get wrapped around a vehicle. Get the woven not welded. It’s strong. It’s a deterrent. People drop stuff off for us and just leave it by the gate, instead of opening it up and coming in. It’s easy to open. But people just don’t do it. So physiological thing I think. You typically don’t open someone’s door on there house and walk in. A gate basically does the same thing.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

If you presuppose a farm, you have a lot of space outside the house that you should 1. use and 2. prevent an assailant from using.

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Outside_Rooster1583@reddit

exactly ! you want those rings pushed out . if you are fighting from inside your house , you are nearly finished . have a green zone /safe zone that includes your home or base . have circles far out enough that your home is safe from accurate small arms fire . for me , in a semi rural area , some neighbors homes will need to be used . other homes or barns may need to be removed. you have to shape "your world " for best defense . block paths and roadways , create funnels and killzones .

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Trevdogg187@reddit

I was actually just thinking about this very topic. I live about an hour outside of a major city but my neighborhood has farms and each house is on around an acre of land. There’s only one road into the neighborhood and is heavily forested. Neighbor is a lumberjack and has power equipment we could use to put up a roadblock (FOB), just replaced and upgraded the fence around my property (8’ tall and 4x6 posts) and just got razor wire from preppersales. Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a spot inside my house with walls that would stop rifle rounds. So is my last circle getting the family in a bathtub and being up on the roof in a sniper blind? I have sandbags and my M1A is setup to reach out and touch someone and also have a drone…

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personman_76@reddit

After stuff had started, you could just take some logs and pile them around your house. Drive a few into the ground to act as stakes on either side and stack them four or five high depending on the diameter. A log might not stop the highest energy rounds, but those wet logs Will stop a 5.56 from penetrating the bottom floor of your house. If you have the help or the time, dirt helps a lot too. History is littered with log walls and dirt filled gabion, they've always worked

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Trevdogg187@reddit

Great point, thanks!

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hope-luminescence@reddit

for me , in a semi rural area , some neighbors homes will need to be used . other homes or barns may need to be removed. you have to shape "your world " for best defense . block paths and roadways , create funnels and killzones .

This seems a bit extravagant, and you probably don't want to be messing with other people's stuff without their permission, even if you think they have well and truly skipped town.

I think that "funnels and killzones" seems more relevant to military defense against a large force, or ambush tactics, than what I would consider meaningful to self-defense as a civilian even in a world where law enforcement is only a memory and roving gangs are a threat.

Ideally, you would be able to coordinate with neighbors and have defense in depth.

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nordic86@reddit

Especially when 2 of the rings are flammable.

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GoBucks513@reddit

This is akin to the military concept of defense in depth. Basically, instead of just having one line of defense for the enemy to overcome, you have concentric rings that collapse into each other as positions become untenable. The outer rings can just be mobile surveillance units, while the final is hardened bunkers for a last stand scenario. The idea is to bleed the enemy, making them fight constantly for evert step forward, while providing defenders quick paths to collapse inward. This causes the opposing force to expend much more energy and munitions than they would if you just had the one ring of hardened defensive points. The key is to make it easier for defenders to collapse inward than it is for the enemy to follow. In a military setting, this is accomplished through things such as claymores, boobytraps, blowing retreat avenues once they have been used, and more.

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Local_Error_404@reddit

You also have to take the people securing it into account. How trustworthy are they? How desperate are THEY for food or other supplies? How much are you paying them?

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boytoy421@reddit

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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Bobby_Marks3@reddit

"We guard what you lick"

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Mercuryshottoo@reddit

Food and women?

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boytoy421@reddit

... that's not an entirely accurate translation

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Bobby_Marks3@reddit

Jake Peralta: Your motto is surprisingly, we exist.

Jack Danger: Incorrect. Our motto is "nos custodimus quod lingus". We guard what you lick.

Jake: That's worse!

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RealTeaToe@reddit

Custodes?

r/Suddenly40k

At that rate. You only need 1 to secure anything.

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Successful-Clock-224@reddit

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt

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NightOperator@reddit

What if i burn those rings

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Responsible-Annual21@reddit

What a dumb response. “WhAt iF i BuRn ThOsE RiNgS?”

Sure bro. Burn the metal T-posts and 4 strand barb wire fence. Have at it. Good luck.

I never said you would have an impenetrable fortress. The point is that you have increasing levels of security which allow you time to recognize there’s a threat and respond..

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hope-luminescence@reddit

For a rural farm this is a fence around the house (one ring), the house itself (second ring), and finally, a room within the house (third ring).

For a farm where it may be 50 or even hundreds of meters between the house and the property line or outermost fence, this seems too closed-in, or like you want four rings.

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Large-Click1477@reddit

CPTED, specifically op. Security throughout environmental design is critical to setting up a bolstered defense posture. Critical materials should be defended and hidden from outside eyes through deceptive designs. Goodluck

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NewEnglandPrepper3@reddit

Thanks for sharing that neat concept.

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Responsible-Annual21@reddit

You’re welcome. I hope you find it helpful.

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wtfredditacct@reddit

That's a very good place to start. From a military standpoint, you'll typically see something like a patrol base, Combat Out Post (COP), Forward Operating Base (FOB), and then a main base/post. That represents the rings you're talking about a little better as it relates OPs question. Really though, we don't have enough information to answer that question.

What terrain are we talking about? Mountains? Woods? Plains? Are there natural hides (caves, trenches, etc.)? Are there already sturdy fences in place? Is this hypothetical 1sq mile a square, rectangle, or some other crazy shape?

Are there good natural observation points like cliffs/plateaus? Are surveillance assets like small drones an option? What about trail cams?

What's OPs logistics situation? Horses? 4 wheelers? Special Forces style electric dritbikes? Pre-positioned resupply caches?

What type of incursion are you expecting? A few stragglers who happened upon your homestead or a military/paramilitary force who's well trained and has time to prepare?

The answer really goes from a few guys on horses to large-scale force on force. The best answer I have would be to say that as many as your land/supply chain can support. It doesn't matter how many defenders you have if they don't have food, water, shelter... and ammunition.

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Playful-Rooster-9287@reddit

Say you have a small Farmstead with one road in and out. Even square mile. You're obviously going to want people set up at the road with blocking positions and barriers. Give that 4-6 people. The average person on a clear day can see about 3 miles, so one guard post in each corner can cover the entire perimeter, but that's bare minimum and you never want to do that. So let's say one in each corner and one halfway between each corner for a total of 8 with 2 people per. That would cover your static positions. For roving patrols do 2 buddy pairs patrolling the perimeter, and if they need a break just have them swap with the guys in the towers. That gives you 26 guys for a pretty tight security situation, but you would have to at least double, preferablytriple this number, so people can sleep you can still have 24hr security. This number can be adjusted based off of how difficult the terrain is, if you have surveillance equipment like security cameras/drones, or obstacles like barbed wire, fences, or trenches. Could you get away with less than that? Probably. But that's just my two cents.

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MagnificentMystery@reddit

There’s no need to secure 25 square miles, and even an organized military couldn’t at any sort of efficiency.

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Alamohermit@reddit

You people seriously watch too many goddamn movies and think it's reality.

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Far-Respond-9283@reddit

Fr, but people here like this fantasies too because they are giving unrealistic ideas of how to do it.

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Alamohermit@reddit

It's childish, pathetic, and idiotic. Fantasies for immature morons who secretly wish they could kill people with no legal repercussions.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

I also don't think that's what's going on here.

As silly as some commentary (100 guards! No, a thousand!) is, "How would I protect my home if quick-responding law enforcement isn't coming" is a very real and serious problem, and I don't see much for violent fantasy here (there is some).

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Alamohermit@reddit

Yeah, it's called shut the fuck up, board up your shit, and be really really fucking quiet. Not "oH gEe HoW mAnY RaMbOs Du i NeeD tO hAvE a TaKtiKooL SeCuRiTY PeTRoL."

Jesus. I've been through actual local grid collapses. Reality isn't Mad Max or video games. Anyone who comes to you looking for help is probably going to be unarmed, scared shitless, and desperate. Not raiders with hockey masks and guns.

Grow the fuck up.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

Presumably the threats aren't "people looking for help"?

Also, are you talking about living through situations where the grid was down for months in a whole country, where the operation of basic government fell through, where people faced actual starvation due to failure of the industrial production and supply chain? That would seem to be a decidedly distinguished resume.

What do you do when you have to go out for water, supplies, for farm labor even?

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Alamohermit@reddit

"Presumably", you think other people are going to be wild hordes of Mad Max bandits trying to steal/rape/kill/plunder.

In my experience, and the experiences of other people who've gone through a grid collapse, most people are going to be unprepared, desperate, and begging for help.

And the best thing you can do is not treat them as "zombies" or "enemies." The best thing you can do is what you can to give them water, food, medicine, and safety. Build a community in your local space. Share.

If you DO go this stupid, childish route of seeing every other survivor as an enemy? The other survivors will see you as a threat (rightfully so) and kill you.

This ain't the fuckin' movies. kiddo.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

"Presumably", you think other people are going to be wild hordes of Mad Max bandits trying to steal/rape/kill/plunder

Most people want to get along.

But criminals and sociopaths are a thing even in the lap of industrial luxury.

Desperate people and a lack of law enforcement are not going to make that better.

Banditry has been a common problem through human history.

In my experience, and the experiences of other people who've gone through a grid collapse,

I am once again saying: have you actually been in a situation where nobody knew if help was ever coming? Where police weren't available and there wasn't a well established system for community defense? I'm obviously not talking about losing power for a week while FEMA gets the ball rolling.

most people are going to be unprepared, desperate, and begging for help.

Correct.

And the best thing you can do is not treat them as "zombies" or "enemies."

I don't think anyone in this thread has said you should treat friendly people as hostile.

The best thing you can do is what you can to give them water, food, medicine, and safety. Build a community in your local space. Share.

I'm in favor of doing this. This isn't incompatible with having security.

There are still concerns. Human nature isn't always nice.

What if word gets around and you have 100+ desperate people on your doorstep, thinking that you have infinite resources?

What if you give as much as you can, and people get angry that it wasn't more? Or view you throwing around charity as arrogance?

In general, most people want to be nice but it's not most people you need to worry about.

If you DO go this stupid, childish route of seeing every other survivor as an enemy? The other survivors will see you as a threat (rightfully so) and kill you

I think I can confidently say that you've made up a guy in your head to be mad at.

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halcyonforeveragain@reddit

There was a quote from a guy who actually built a defensible farm like this. He could deal with a horde of raiders. What he feared was a starving mother and child.

Quote is in

Survival of the Richest: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires

by Douglas Rushkoff (Author)

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hope-luminescence@reddit

Frankly, this place usually has the opposite problem -- "problems more serious than 48hr power outage don't exist" and higher-end prepardness meets a wall of doomerism.

But I think your criticism is way off base, even though there's a lot of unrealistic silliness here ("unless you have 100+ people you are Not Secure").

This isn't from movies.

This is the mentality that made me try to surround my base with a solid wall of turrets when I first played StarCraft. It didn't work any better in a video game than in reality.

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UnTides@reddit

Yeah your're laugh at us right now, but when your're suddenly finding yourself lacking a forward mobilzed security force fitted with exploding collars only you have the remote control to operate, and there are dozens of city-refugees coming towards your unprotected compound looking to take all your toilet paper, dried beans and seed vault. Yeah then it will be too late to genetically modify a clone army to serve at your whim. You will be kicking yourself in the pants.

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Alamohermit@reddit

Pssssht, I already converted my home to solar and put up AI guided turrets that fire 10,000 rounds per min of .30 cal ammo, and bought a bunch of power armor. Git gud, scrubz.

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UnTides@reddit

Solar powered AI turrets, thanks my forces will attack after dark when your turrets are down!

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Alamohermit@reddit

BRUH I GOT A TESLA POWER WALL YO

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undergroundman10@reddit

You would need a population of hundreds or thousands to be able to afford a few dozen full time soldiers/guards.

More likely everyone capable would be part time guards. While they worked, they would carry around their weapons of choice: rifle, bow, katana, etc. those unable to work like elderly, disabled, injured could set themselves up in areas where they could see far distances with binoculars.

If there were known threats of roving bandits, I would have scouts on dirt bikes or horses travel farther out.

Ideally you could make friends with neighboring farms and form a loose coalition for protection.

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halcyonforeveragain@reddit

And finally a rational answer.

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danielledelacadie@reddit

Just enough to be problematic.

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Fusiliers3025@reddit

“Security” is more than just the people “on patrol”. Controlled borders (fence/wall/terrain), controlled entry (gates/checkpoints), and monitoring (binoculars, CCTV, unarmed “observers” all can stretch resources of shooters and defenders a long ways.

So a setup with a network, and communications (even if it’s a rung bell - two rings means congregate on the west gate, three for the north entrance, constant ring - the camp/community center, etc.) is going to suit a group or a settlement better than just turning loose a couple of guys with guns to walk the edge.

And the “security” personnel don’t necessarily need to be 100% security with no secondary function - I’d take a cue from Biblical history (spelled out in Nehemiah and the contemporary books) and the rebuilding of the walls and city of Jerusalem. The priority was erecting those walls for safety, but until then they had armed soldiers stationed at the breaks, with the workers keeping weapons on them or nearby. And for both sakes, they’d rotate - letting someone rest from masonry and construction, while the “guard” staff relaxed their eyes and vigilance to work the job.

If organizing such, I’d do the same thing, maybe with an emphasis on sight first (binoculars, advantageous line of sight) and issue whistles (see the above bell-toll signals) for assembly on a critical or threatened point. Until the fence/wall is completed, and this can then be patrolled with fewer “guards” on a regular circuit inside, any breaks can be followed up on quickly, repaired, and shored up.

So the amount of space needed to be secured, the ancillary preparations, and other factors could mean a smaller “security” force, or require a more general “everyone keep your guns handy and ready to react” policy. Tactics adapt to specific equipment on-hand, such as backing up a gun-carrying partner with a standoff spear style weapon, always in pairs.

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DannyWarlegs@reddit

You need at least 100 people to secure and hold a 1x1 square mile of space, assuming low to medium threat levels. Higher threat= more people needed per shift.

You'd need perimeter guards every 500 meters, 2 per shift, 3 shifts per day, so that's 78 total people if you split up 1 square mile into 500 meter chunks, you'd have about 13 spots to secure.

You'd need the rest for quick reaction teams, internal patrols, medical, support, etc.

I've you're in a higher threat area, like just outside a city but still rural, you'd need about 250 people. You'd need about 120 of them just watching the perimeter. About another 4 6 man teams for QRF, 6-10 people to manage everything, 15-20 mechanics, Cooks, other support and logistic jobs, 4-6 medical support staff, 6-8 recon scouts/snipers watching further out for attacks, then about another 30-50 people held in reserve who can replace any injured or fatigued troops.

This is all aslo not taking into account food production, water purification, entertainment, etc and is assuming you're holding the area with resupply from somewhere else. It doesnt even account for transport to and from, or vehicle crews if you need to leave the area.

You'd need probably another 150 support personnel for basic farming, livestock management, etc.

So let's say about 450-500 people to hold and prosper on 1 square mile without any help from the outside

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SplitDry2063@reddit

I li ed on a 1,000 acre farm. My dad could sit on the back porch and hear a pickup, tractor or cows acting up. But a square mile, that’s 640 acres, what are you securing, the food produced or Mary Jane? Roads? Forest? Line of sight?

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Icy-Medicine-495@reddit

How well do you want it to be secured? Numbers could vary greatly depending on the level of defense you want. Realistically you can't secure that much land of an average farm. You might be able to have a few patrols at all times for the bulk of the land and then focus on strongly fortifying the buildings.

You need atleast 3 shifts of guards plus relief guards when people get sick. Shot in the dark guess. Atleast 100 people main focus on guard duty. For example each shift has 30 guards and 10 relief staff. Have to roaming patrols which need atleast 2 people each but more would be preferred. 4 guards per side of the main housing area. Then a quick reaction force that is also monitoring your electronic security and handling comms.

Becomes pretty unrealistic and overwhelming quick.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

A hundred people? What kind of massive operation is this supposed to be?

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Icy-Medicine-495@reddit

Well how many people do you think it would take to defend a large farm?

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hope-luminescence@reddit

For the best possible security? Zillion.

But we're not talking about "best possible", but rather, what you can do with who you have.

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Icy-Medicine-495@reddit

OK we drop the patrol to 1 team of 2 people, 1 person per side of the farm buildings to be guards, and 4 people at the center for the electronic monitoring and quick reaction force. times that by 3 shifts and we still need 30 people 100% dedicated to security and assuming they are robots and never get sick. Really need 3 more people for relief. Even then it will be poor level of security. My original point is he was trying to secure way to much property and it would require to many people.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

This is still remarkably professionalized.

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Icy-Medicine-495@reddit

Give me an example of how you would protect a farm. Because I admit I don't even know 30 people that I trust to handle a gun safety unsupervised let a lone have the training to be a decent armed security.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

Neither do I.

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thedreadedaw@reddit

And your guards will have wives and children. That's a group of a minimum of 300 and maybe as many as 600 people. Now you are a small town.

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Vegetaman916@reddit

I say it so much I'm sure I have annoyed quite a few here, but...

The best defense is to not be where people are going to come looking.

I like farms. I like fresh food. In a societal collapse situation, everyone is going to like farms and want food, but they won't have any food.

So they will be looking for farms.

What they won't be looking for is 25 years worth of freeze-dried 25-year shelf stable foods deep in a cave somewhere in the middle of the desert a hundred miles from the nearest paved road.

You can defend a property successfully with the right training and supplies. You can do it twice, or three times, or ten... but how many times? If civilization has collapsed and isn't coming back, how long can you really expect to keep fighting? Risking deadly injuries every time...

Not worth it. Put your BOL somewhere virtually impossible to reach, and where no one in their right mind would ever think to look.

Do you know which fights that you always win, 100% of the time? The ones you don't have.

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ToughPillToSwallow@reddit

While this is true, everyone can’t have a cave in an extremely remote area. In fact, I think most people would do better to think about urban or suburban prepping scenarios.

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Vegetaman916@reddit

That is true. But, it is also true that those prepping for anything at all are in a distinct minority, and those looking into the potential for grid-down societal collapse scenarios are even more rare.

For those numbers, yes, there are sufficient caves. Hell, just here in my state of Nevada there are over 200,000 abandoned mines, over 50,000 of which are large enough to be considered "hazards," and thus quite extensive.

I know. We have had our 15 person group outfitting one since 2019. Mining claim laws are awesome, and lawyers even moreso...

But I digress.

Urban and suburban prepping scenarios are, without a doubt, where one should start first. And prepping for "Tuesday" as a primary focus is wise, since most issues will be of such a type. However, that being said, the idea to plan for "bugging in" to ride out a permanent societal and civilizational collapse on a global scale, such as a full-scale nuclear war or some deadly 80% mortality-rate viral outbreak, well... that's just not smart.

I get it, and I know where it comes from. People get attached to their homes, and end up doing so much prep that they have turned them into fortresses. Or, more accurately, into tombs. They don't want to leave, maybe even lost the capability or financial means to do so along the way. The natural response is a defensive mechanism known as denial. It helps comfort them, knowing that such threats are "impossible" anyway, nuclear war will never happen, so silly...

But, if we put aside the "impossibility" of such an occurrence, and examine a nuclear strike of multiple warheads on a city such as, say, Dallas, or Perhaps San Francisco, well, a strictly data-driven examination will quickly show that the best defense of all is to not be there when the boom comes down.

Prepping in itself is already the act of preparing for the statistically unlikely. And so, why not prepare for all likelihoods, right up to those "impossible" ones? Doesn't hurt. Am I going to need to run off to live in a cave or abandoned ore mill somewhere? No, probably not. But there is no harm in knowing where they all are, and having some supply caches around.

Just in case of the impossible.

And that is my message, which is heard by only a very, very small number of people. A number small enough that, yes, there are enough caves to hold them.

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WildBillWilly@reddit

100%. Location. Location. Location.

Forget being able to secure a position that is accessible and within walking/driving distance from any mid or small sized population center.

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Nobellamuchcry@reddit

Great question. I am setting up a semi urban homestead. 30 min from big city, 15 min from suburbs.

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Outside_Rooster1583@reddit

get out further !

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ToughPillToSwallow@reddit

Well everyone can’t just buy and live on a property way way out of town.

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Nobellamuchcry@reddit

Looking for other characters. The more the merrier. EKC area. Willing to drive a little

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Zikeal@reddit

Ok, so you asked what percentage of people have to be full-time security. That's an easy 0%, and if any 'tacticool' bro only has that to contribute, they are more a liability than a resource, so dont prep with them.

For most of human history, the idea of the professional soldier didn't exist specifically because specialization doesn't work in a small community without outside trade. Everyone does a little of everything, and responsibility rotates to reduce the fatigue of both body and mind.

This also ensures that the community isn't too reliant on the skills of one person in case of their loss. If your one electrician or carpenter has a brain aneurysm and drops dead without having trained anyone you sir are fucked.

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myOEburner@reddit

Ah. This again.

Long story short, if you envision standing up roadblocks to keep people from using roads to get through your area to somewhere else, you need to do the math on attrition.

If you're talking a local police force, neat. If you're talking a paramilitary group to block roads and shoot at families in minivans because they're trying to go through "your" patch of dirt, be prepared for a Soviets-Enter-Berlin-style curb stomping administered by everyone.

Also, building a hermit kingdom won't end well when you need to end up migrating to cities because that's where everything.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

I'm somewhat confused by what you're saying here.

What assumptions are you making?

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myOEburner@reddit

1.) such a property even exists.

2.) such a property is for sale.

3.) that there's a lot I don't know and will learn as I go.

I'm making many, many assumptions. And I don't even know what I don't know yet!

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Light_Lily_Moth@reddit

There is a (biblical?) concept of planting outside your fenced area specifically so the hungry have something to scavenge. I believe the text said ten rows. It stuck with me.

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funnysasquatch@reddit

Simple.

You don't.

The reality is that you will be too busy with farm chores and just trying to scratch out a living to worry about it.

The other problem you're going to run into is that the people who will most likely become the bandits - are former military units.

They will have military firearms and training. They'll be scouting your farm with topographical maps, satellite photos, and drones.

If they want your farm, they're going to take your farm.

Your best hope is that a local government forms that offers protection in exchange for some type of payment.

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ElNaso2@reddit

And then they'd run the farm into the ground and move onto the next farm until there are none left and they starve. One can only hope to appeal to common sense and say "I can keep producing food!, you can't" but even that only goes so far. Eventually you get small feudal groups and skirmishes between them.

I keep wondering about this. Marauding is inherently unsustainable and eventually has to devolve into small feudal, military run states that turn farmers into slaves. I don't think there's a way to survive peacefully, unless you pick a truly inhospitable land to settle in.

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Awkward_Rutabaga5370@reddit

Rural Africa isn't feudal IME.

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JRHLowdown3@reddit

Just like when the Soviets threw Ukrainian farmers off their land to gulag and "gave" the land to ignorant city folks. The farms stopped producing and people starved.

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infinitum3d@reddit

Yep. Just like the raiders in Fallout,

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funnysasquatch@reddit

Yes.

It will depend how things fall. I doubt the US completely falls apart short of an apocalyptic event. And I doubt there will be anything surviving anyway.

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ElNaso2@reddit

Yeah it won't be an immediate event, it will take decades. Crime rate will slowly rise until bands of looters form, and even then you got time to respond. Not everything collapses at once. The indicators I'm tracking are price of beef (least sustainable agro product), electricity (price and frequency of blackouts) and availability of water. You got a ways to go in the US, despite how clear the road looks atm. Chin up.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

You're right that generally local or community governments form (though without fast communication and transportation it's still going to be essential for people to be their own first line of defense).

But I think you're making two questionable statements.

First, did people seriously not take security measures historically? I find that hard to believe.

Second, even people like that are going to take casualties and face the problem of risk/reward.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

This question has been a magnet for extravagant and absurd answers.

A square mile is a huge area. In rural areas that will often be broken down into parcels that are 5, 10, 20, 50, or 100 acres or so. A square mile is 640 acres. So it may easily contain between 10 and 50 households of your friends and neighbors. If the terrain is rolling hills you likely won't be able to see across anywhere near the whole thing. Hopefully you're on good terms with them.

Fundamentally, the question is how secure and against what sort of opposition. A lot of people have given answers aiming for pretty high security, which leads to massive forces that probably can't be supported here.

Keep in mind that bandits trying to force you off your land or extort you are not the same as an enemy army that is willing to spend lives to eliminate all opposition.

Realistically, nobody is going to be full time anything in most cases.

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Manda_Rain@reddit

Location, far away from cities, rural people wont be so much of a threat they know how to grow food, city people will be the desperate ones trying to loot your stuff, in the woods would be ideal

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hope-luminescence@reddit

This is somewhat questionable.

Many people in rural areas know how to grow food, but many don't, or have no idea how to do so without supplies like fertilizer and fuel.

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Complex_Confusion552@reddit

This is fucking LARP- bait

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sickduck69@reddit

Isn't that what this sub is for?

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l1thiumion@reddit

I thought it was just for asking what the most overlooked items are

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sickduck69@reddit

I thought so too but it seems like every other zombiee fighter prepper board online.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

Honestly, this post is rather out of the norm here.

(seems like for the last month things had gone super Tuesday-focused, which honestly I prefer to discuss things that aren't more or less trivially easy, but this is rather the other extreme and amateur hour to boot.)

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JRHLowdown3@reddit

Definitely, more things for people to put on "lists" of things they will never do or purchase. Cause you know, lists right. Better to not have to think through scenarios yourself, but instead relaying on other's thinking for you :)

Wonder how tasty lists are? A lot of folks are going to be feeding their families with them.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

It isn't supposed to be!

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Complex_Confusion552@reddit

Lol, I suppose. A few nuggets of wisdom here and there tho. I like the prepping for Tuesday tips. The guy saying if there are woods you have less burden of surveillance. Dude they hide in the fucking woods. I'm looking for ideas covering a month of weirdness tops, after that's its "The Road"

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pbmadman@reddit

Many? You’d need to figure out how many people it takes to actively watch every approach and then multiply by 3 for watch rotation. If it’s clear fields in every direction then it would take far fewer people than if it’s wooded.

If you are worried about organized bands of looters then they will surveil your location and identify weaknesses. So a patrol is only as good as its weakest point. Teams of 2 every half mile? So 8 teams around a 1 square mile patch. 16 people, 3 teams to rotate for a total of 48.

I really think it’s heavily dependent on the terrain. If it’s just the flat open plains you can see for miles. If it’s wooded and hilly you can only see a very short distance.

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hope-luminescence@reddit

Realistically:

Very few people are going to be capable of doing anything like this.
You don't have to do anything like this to be a pretty hard nut to crack.

You definitely do, however, need several people at least and more is better.

Variously:

- People who are outside and don't have their head down *too* much are still able to perceive stuff.

- A square mile is a huge property, and that's awfully spread out. It would probably make much more sense to pull the security in a good bit closer. For example, a 50 acre square is just under 500 yards on a side, and even then that's a decent sized farm.

- You can use stuff like sensors, triplines, cameras, etc to detect intrusion from a distance.

- Ideally you'll be coordinating with neighbors and may be warned of incursion by radio well in advance.

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redphlud@reddit

If you think having a more open area means you can defend a position easier, that also means you would be easier to overwhelm because of less manpower. A couple of mobile snipers and it's game over. Or a kamikaze. Or a missile/explosive. Or a drone. Or a rogue agent with inside knowledge. Or a lucky strike at an opportune time, like a shift change. It is simply impossible to account for everything. Simply put, there is no accurate number anyone can give because no one can account for everything you might encounter!

All you can do is the best you can with what you have. And try to minimize weaknesses.

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VilleKivinen@reddit

Multiplying by five assumes that no-one ever has a day off, become sick or anything else. Multiplying by 5 or 6 is more reasonable.

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pbmadman@reddit

Multiplying by 3 is 8 on 16 off, or 4 on 8 off. And yeah, every day.

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VilleKivinen@reddit

Those 16 off hours need to be used to rest, wash dishes and clothes, prepare food, study, exercise and thousand other tasks that all take a lot longer to do without electricity and Internet.

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Dangerous-School2958@reddit

Carry the 2... it's more people than the farm can sustain

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VilleKivinen@reddit

Yeah, it's impossible to do with a small farm. I'd guess that minimum viable town would have to have a population of 100-200. Farming, raising livestock, gardening and fishing requires a lot of workforce. Some people need to specialise in repairs, building, nursing, medicine, soil sciences, chemistry and dozens of other things.

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knowskarate@reddit

In medieval times the ratio was 3:1. 3 farmers for every non farmer worder. So security team of 50 would require about 150 farmer to support them. that does not count medicine, or administrators, etc. That 48 person security detail does not include a dedicated CO. Whoever is in charge to standing a post.

So at 5 acres of farmland per person for you are at 1000 acres....there are 640 acres in a square mile...so your farm is about 1.6 square miles.

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Dangerous-School2958@reddit

Which would be an attractive settlement. Drawing in more people...

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Fragrant_Lobster_917@reddit

This "society" thing really sounds nice!

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irrelaventchapstick@reddit

Also, regular patrols are a bad idea. Random timing is the better way. Random numbers, loadouts, times, paths, etc

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JohnnyBoy11@reddit

It depends on how much money you have. If you have the pockets for it, you can set up remote security with thermals that will alert you, and even turrets you can control from inside the house. Depending on how wild you get, you can set up trips and even use drones to help with the defense.

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Former_Star1081@reddit

Surveillance drones got real cheap.

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Mario-X777@reddit

Well, the real answer is that you really cannot defend against the bigger armed group. So unless you have 100+ people - it is all just illusion of security. You simply cannot outgun big group of raiders, if situation comes to it.

And this is not some theoretical thoughts. There was very close scenario, when there was a war in yougoslavia. Big armed families, consisting of 8-12 members were simply decimated in matter of minutes, while defending against groups of 40 robbers (in a fortified house). Simply the density of firepower is overwhelming

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EffectiveSherbet042@reddit

The real answer is to invest in your local community relationships and sharing resources starting now so you never need to solve this kind of question later bc you and everyone around you are all on the same team.

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redphlud@reddit

I'm sure you've seen one or several movies involving a heist, where a vulnerability is exploited and negates all the manpower invested to protect a vault or a person or whatever. Nobody can answer this question truthfully.

The answer is to be more prepared and have more than whoever intends to strike.

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Thoth-long-bill@reddit

Maybe read a Navy Seal’s Guide to Bug In.

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thundersnow211@reddit (OP)

Yeah, I've heard of that one. I haven't been too interested in the security side of things but I've been wondering about it.

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Thoth-long-bill@reddit

It covers lots of topics

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zakkalaska@reddit

Do you have that book? I keep seeing the ad for it but I'm cautious of scams. Does it seem like a good one to have?

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Thoth-long-bill@reddit

Bought it over a month back but no time to open it. Did on Friday night and spent an hour scoping it out. Very impressive. It’s a reasonable book and the Seal experience is well employed.

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TheFellatedOne@reddit

Additionally I recommend reading the USMC doctrine for urban warfare or patrol bases. You’ll learn about setting up the defense, obstacles, and fortifications.

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wwglen@reddit

Yes, just remember that:

They are planning for a known threat.
They have fire support available
They will not need to raise their own food, but will get resupply instead.

Like others said. Unknown and depends on threat expected, location, and terrain.

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DreamCabin@reddit

When the world ends, survival won't be an accident—it'll be earned. After the initial shock, it all comes down to strategy, skill, and who stands with you. On 16,000 acres, gunfire could echo for miles without a soul to hear it. Land alone won’t save you. You’ll need eyes, allies, and overwhelming firepower. Start with surveillance: install a grid of trail cameras to monitor every path, tree line, and blind spot. Then, build your team. Recruit coders to secure your systems and hardwire your machines to respond only to you. Bring in satellite engineers, military tacticians, and combat veterans. Add doctors to preserve life, and tradesmen to sustain it—farmers, ranchers, butchers, blacksmiths, carpenters, mechanics, electricians. Don’t overlook the survivalists: riggers, mountaineers, hunters, and archers. Their skills could mean the difference between staying hidden—or being hunted. When it comes to defense, find someone who can build weapons from raw materials—guns, cannons, even explosives—if it comes to that. Then arm your territory: Deploy combat drones and autonomous robots. Station vehicles and helicopters modified for warfare. Ensure your force can strike fast, hard, and without hesitation. And don’t forget the pilots. Machines are useless without someone who can fly them. In the end, only the prepared will shape what comes next.

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TexFarmer@reddit

IMHO at least 2 armed guards (1 overwatch & 1 patrol) & 1 person manning the radio per 12-hour shift = 6 just for security. This could be done with 4 people on staggered 18-hour rotations if needed.

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jeremyhat@reddit

A long time ago I was in a Narcotics unit. We had a large shipment of dope coming in and knew where just not when it would arrive. There was a sugarcane field across from the target location and set up 24 hour surveillance. We ran two men in 12 hour shifts due to getting in and out being so hard. It was the most horrible three days of my life watching a house from a cane field. We would take turns watching for an hour and the other person would sleep for an hour. It was a horrible three days. Later in Iraq we set up an ambush along route Pirates. We set up along the road and waited. An hour later we were in a group laughing and joking all night. It is very hard to set up and protect something. I feel like you would need a lot of people rotating positions.

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Electrical-Camel-420@reddit

5 sq miles is a huge area… heck one is from a security perspective…

At that point unless you have a sizeable community living on the farm, you probably need to prioritize….

Couple of listening posts on likely approaches, randomly roving patrol of at least two each …. Then more resources dedicated to water, food, people and any other high priority areas (any working utilities like generators for example)

You also have to consider a control center for communication between people and places and to coordinate a response if there’s a problem that would need to be manned at all hours.

You can reduce some of the manpower need if electronic surveillance is available, if vehicles or animals can be used to transport responders from one area to another, and by adding more simple measures like mechanical alarms (trip flares, bells or cans on strings, etc) and obstacles (fences, ditches, locks/bars on outlying meaningful but not essential locations)

Absolute bare minimum if you concentrated your resources in a smaller area, had power and electronic surveillance equipment and a couple vehicles to move response teams

1 dispatcher 2 patrollers who can also act as responders 2 listening post people

X2 for twelve hour shifts

At least ten people and that’s forsaking a large area and keeping things to main approaches and occasionally ride arounds to keep an eye on outlying sections

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FlashyImprovement5@reddit

Not all farms will be easy to find, not all are on a main road. Not all grow edible veggies.

There is more stuff growing that is edible in most cities than most people know about. Everyone is just too clueless to look down.

And if I mention the Z word here-- it completely blocks the screen where you can't even edit but that is what you seem to be describing nonetheless.

Not all farms raise things someone dumb enough to try and steal. I know potato farms you wouldn't know what was growing unless you happened to grow potatoes yourself. THAT VARIETY of potatoes even

I have met people that wouldn't recognize a sheep from a goat or a small pony. So most dogs will disappear before they even get to the farms around me

I have met people who tried to convince me that what I was foraging was going to kill me instantly. And they didn't even know what I was picking or digging.

I have also met people trespassing through a garden trying to get information on what they should grow in THEIR garden ---all the while stomping on what is growing in MY garden.

I am formally of the belief if I just label all the edible stuff with obscure names and things like "belladonna" that my garden will be safe all the while labeling the pennyroyal, nightshade other odditties I have after edible lettuce and edible watercress. As long and I put the EDIBLE in a nice, large print.

So no security needed. Just a bunch of sheep to bury

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PrincepsC@reddit

There is no defensive set up that can be created that cannot be breached and taken.

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JRHLowdown3@reddit

Average attention span and ability to pay attention in a watch type situation isn't as long as people would think. Don't plan on super long "shifts" as people will burn out.

Narrow down your areas of control.
Utilize fencing to channelize as well as for legal deterrent in a situation where ROL isn't completely gone and/or EXPECT it to return at some point. Normal no trespassing signs, etc. are important. Amazing to me how many people don't fence and gate their property. A guy down the road from our range is a senior military officer. He called me one day telling me he had a break in- extremely unheard of in this area. His place sits so near the road years ago drunks used to hit the place going over hills in the dark. He doesn't have the front fenced or gated. Got the perps on camera and traced them back to a rental house in the area, LE went and talked to them, confirmed but couldn't evidently arrest them- "just walking around".
Utilize technology and labor savers to your best ability. Seismic intrusion detectors, MURS alert systems and various quiet perimeter alarm systems will help cut down on manpower needs. A couple of decent 640 thermal units, either multifunction units like the InfiRay RH25V2 or a thermal binocular set will help drastically in detection both day and night.

Something like an M6T thermal PTZ camera run off of small solar setup is awesome. Requires Wifi for pushing the signal back to tablets, etc. nearby, but can be used without. Starlink with solar could be helpful here...

Small drones are very handy and could be used as stand alone, or in conjunction with patrols as mentioned below, in various ways. Again, VERY EASY to recharge via small solar so power is not a problem worth discussing. Thermal drones like the Autel units are absolutely unbelievable. The Autel units have some very neat add ons like RANGEFINDERS, lights even microphone type setups. For pysops or just for "warning" people off these could be handy for various things.

Presence patrols- normal patrolling, even to be "seen" just a bit has it's uses. Even 2-3 kitted up that are regularly seen out and about on larger properties is important. Ideally these guys would be trained in tracking and know the area. Proper use of track traps would be helpful at likely points of entrance, which would be helpful for those without the best trackers eye.

The COMBINATION of old skewl patrolling/tracking/outdoor skills along with the technological advantages given by thermal, analog NV, early warning devices, the drones, etc. offers a two stage set up that doesn't "relay" on tech (always something preppers complain about, they themselves not being Luddites but simply making it an argument point). And YES all of these things can be kept in Faraday bags inside ammo cans but with the old skewl training, the tech is considered an add on, versus a must have crutch.

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SquirrelMurky4258@reddit

If you have the means this guy is talking about you need to get 2 Fightlite MCR’s with FRT’s. This gives you the ability to rain down on your opponent and make them think twice about whether they really want to take your place.

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JRHLowdown3@reddit

Back to how many people- now mix in the logistics aspect. Having sixteen "shooters" who have little skills other than standing guard duty, who have probably brought little else to the table in logistics or skill sets, isn't the best choice. If they can't feed themselves you must be able to feed them. This fantasy story of "hiring" security is BS, unpaid mercenaries won't stay loyal long...

The security should be flexible also. Say you need to harvest game. It's a little more now than just Bubba grabbing a rifle and going to sit in the stand all day. Bubba needs cover. At a minimum this would mean Bubba in the stand and another hidden guy not far in sight of Bubba. When Bubba takes a deer- the other guy stays on overwatch and covers Bubba, perhaps a couple more are sent out to cover and help retrieve.

Going to be a lot of opportunists, Bubba hunts "normally" caps the deer, walks down and starts to gut it, two BGs are watching, one is ready to shoot Bubba and the other says "not yet, let him gut it first, that will save us some work." Bubba is capped, stripped of gear and left, deer is gone. All for lack of overwatch.

Same could be said for running a generator for a time to do heavy loads, to weld something, or a firewood crew running chainsaws, etc. Overwatch. Running any engines after the fact will draw attention. During Helene you knew EVERYONE that had a generator within a mile or more easily. You stood outside, shoot an azimuth in the direction of the sound and could line it up perfectly on a map and say "Ok Mr. Smith has a generator and they run it 24/7" (annoying as hell but also a security risk and gives someone a whole helluva lot of info). Meanwhile those panels in your solar array are making zero noise....

Experimenting with this over the years, six hours seemed to be about the max time you could get people in a civilian setting to stand guard and keep some attention. You can make it like a spot and shoot exercise leaving some camoflaged targets out, some odd items left various places in the field of view, etc. They don't even have to shoot the targets, just find and identify them- that's a big part of this, getting people to OBSERVE and not just stand there thinking about which MRE is for dinner LOL.

If you have to utilize newer folks and younger people (teenagers, etc.) always pair them up with an experienced person for a while first. Just like in combatives, when it's time to learn some new material, we pair the upper belts up with new folks, versus having two new folks working together- neither really knows WTF is going on and they struggle more. The upper belt (more experienced) is there to help them through it and learn and give them some confidence.

Just like in that Homestead movie- pairing two inexperienced teenagers together on watch- that was dumb AF and I can't believe cooldaddy Tactibro guy would have done that.

In short, your going to need a lot of people, lesser on smaller areas but nevertheless, a fair amount of people. If you figure a six hour shift, that's 4 per day minimum. And everyone will have other work to do- as it is every single on a working homestead. No one will be sitting around playing Yahtzee to "pass the time." Everyone will be expected to work in some form and that will be necessary to maintain conformity with the group.

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SquirrelMurky4258@reddit

Lots of good information here, I’d like to understand what the layout is like population density wise. How far to the nearest town of more than 1000 residents? Hi-way situation, interstate, federal,state or local county roads. Proximity to people is the most important thing in my opinion. If you have 5 sections of ground, you should have lots of options.

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Lard523@reddit

I have made a concept for a self sufficient community on some 120 acres (50 hectares), and to have a complete perimeter patrol on the inner and outer walls (inner section is 20 acres) i calculated that i would need about 20 people per wall per shift for full security, at the absolute minimum.

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Femveratu@reddit

Drones w thermal may be an emerging gold standard for surveillance altho I suspect like in Ukraine and w the Mexican cartels, in a true SHTF situation certain drones will be weaponized offensively and defensively.

Trail cams further out may need to be checked on occasion in more isolated places.

Then roads and bridges should be blocked or destroyed impaired as needed to create natural chokepoints so you have an idea which direction the more casual looters may approach.

Unless it’s true mad max towns or counties might still be able to organize checkpoint staffing to at least slow down marauders or give crucial time to get ready.

But at the end of the day things like pre planned sniper positions barbed wire, dogs, and most importantly neighbors working together could work together at the individual homestead level.

But you raise a good point. It just depends on the area, it’s native population density, and the likelihood of attracting refugees or looters if supplies or conditions in other areas fail.

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Mtn_Soul@reddit

How many pitbulls or similar dogs might you let roam your property?

Then what is the land like? Is there high ground to defend from?

Traps, nasty detergents might be useful...might not be.

Do you have drones? Cameras? Have you thought about how to patrol your land without having to physically do that?

Lots of options, many depend on what you are willing to do or have the stomach to do if need be.

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Haunting-Cause-972@reddit

Pit bulls are terriers and wouldn’t be appropriate for this kind of situation. What you’d want is a good livestock guardian breed. Most are huge (Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Kuvasz, etc), intimidating, and have been specifically developed over hundreds of years to do the exact job of patrolling boundaries, alerting to intruders, and chasing or fighting them off. All this while being very docile and safe with the family and livestock.

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Mtn_Soul@reddit

Pyrs are great, love those dogs.

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Patient-War-4964@reddit

Can’t let dogs roam the property if you have traps around…

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Mtn_Soul@reddit

Depends on what kind of man traps you've set.

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It_is_Fries_No_Patat@reddit

Early warnings!

Sensors heat detection goose! Dogs!

Know someone is there way before they are in your proximity!

It's not the layers it is the time. Time to search and know direction of enemy. Time to lock and load.

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Former_Star1081@reddit

To observe that territory you need exactly 1 person and a couple of drones.
If you want to know how many people you need to defend that property you'd need to know what you are defending against, not the size of the property.

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Beast_Man_1334@reddit

It's better to be defensive than offensive. You have the advantage because it's your property. I would focus on a standard combat kit and a sniper. Now to give you more definitive answers I'd have to know the layout and your numbers.

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Comfortable_Guide622@reddit

Ok, folks are talking about security like everyone has a base camp with 40 members.

It is actually hard to maintain security for a larger compound and if there are less than, say 10 people, you've got to sleep, get food, prepare for the next day, etc.

Everyone should carry a firearm and a knife and then have minimum security.

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ApprehensiveStand456@reddit

In the walking dead they had like 10 people and they were still over run.

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Frosty_Ostrich7724@reddit

Look at what goes on in South Africa for some lessons

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thundersnow211@reddit (OP)

do you have any phrases I could plug into google to find out about that?

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Frosty_Ostrich7724@reddit

South Africa farmers defense

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Specialist_Loan8666@reddit

White farmers being offed by cushites. Try TikTok or twitter

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Traditional_Neat_387@reddit

Depends ALOT on the level of security you want really, do you want a response force to nearby threats, or be able to tell if a tiny sparrow decides to hop across your area of security. now for a rural square mile are we talking a rural neighborhood or literally one square mile around a house with nothing, also is it wooded, open field, wooded patches, waterways? What about terrain is there any cliffs? Narrow passes? Valleys? OP if your trying to come up with a security plan it takes a lot more than just very vague info like that but I will say your gonna need at least MINIMUM 2 people per position in order to rotate on shifts recommended 3 or more to prevent fatigue and to keep alert

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Traditional_Neat_387@reddit

Now depending if you get tech involved you can severely reduce amount of people needed but I’d still say 3 people for cameras rotation would be best

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Eredani@reddit

I think this is a case of "going to war with the Army you've got" - maybe you need 12 people but only have six?

At the bare minimum you probably want at least four to secure a property: 2 on each shift and 12 hour shifts. You can augment this to some extent with tech like cameras, motion alarms, drones, night vision, etc.

For a full blown community effort (like One Second After) you need hundreds of people that are trained and organized.

In The Last of Us they seem to get by with a few dozen... but its worth noting that everyone has a security role in addition to whatever else they do.

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dunnylogs@reddit

How secure? To have an idea of whats going on, early warning, maybe a platoon? If you wanted to HOLD 5x5 miles you need a regiment!

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Few-Cucumber-413@reddit

Way more than you'd honestly be able to support. You're talking about a 8x8 grid square my guy. That's probably a company size number of men if not more.

Now, feed, house, clean, entertain, supply and train them.

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Big_Profession_2218@reddit

exactly, why not let nature's watch dogs take over. Im talking about those damn white, moody, domestic gees. You treat them well, feed the regularly and not only are they a steady supplier of eggs and meat but the best watch dogs you can have. They will start an unholy commotion when approached, they can cannot be easily silenced or bribed like dogs, they require no training, they are not sound sleepers, they are extremely territorial and they can after all fly.

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CTSwampyankee@reddit

Secure? not happening.

Leverage drones, intrusion detection, mag sensors &/ or PIR, etc and be able to deal with hostile acts/intent in areas of high value? probably more feasible.

The food/water, housing, medical, waste, let alone transportation and POL, required to support large number makes most of this fantasy.

if you had a few spare folks you could set up OPs in areas of likely approach, choke points, high observation, natural lines of drift/travel and have commo.

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dank_tre@reddit

11.6

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WrenchMonkey47@reddit

Lots of variables involved. How much surveillance do you have to locate potential threats? How many indirect fire weapon systems do you have? How many crew-served weapon systems do you have? Do you have anti-armor systems to defeat armored vehicles? Do you have anti-airvweapons to defeat everything from drones to helicopters? Do you have night vision devices? If so, how many? What is the training level of your force? How much ammo do you have for all your weapon systems? Do you have enough food and water to sustain your force for an extended period? What do you physical defenses look like? How sturdy are they? Do you know what OCOKA means?

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Background_Lemon_981@reddit

That depends entirely on the size of the threat. A single drunk hobo wandering onto the farm doesn't take much. But if an army division comes through, you aren't going to secure it. It also depends on whether the threat is organized and / or trained. Even a single platoon of trained soldiers can be a formidable threat to a much larger group of untrained civilians. And you need to be realistic about your level of training. If you are asking about defending a farm on a Reddit group, you are untrained. No shame in that. Everyone has their skills.

This whole thing about establishing patrols around a farm sounds more like cosplay to me.

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928374651029@reddit

D.I.E. Detect. Impede. Eliminate. Hopefully them, not you.

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ironimity@reddit

when we realize how ridiculous the game is here maybe we’ll put that effort into preventing us devolving into the bad times in the first place.

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OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

Meaningless question. Depends on terrain, depends on available technology, depends on what might be attacking and what they have, depends perhaps above all on the training of your patrols.

It also depends on whether the attackers want your stuff or just want you, as a possible point of resistance, wiped away, goods and all. If it's the latter, they can just set fire to your surrounding fields at multiple points and leave. Why waste bullets on a risky encounter, after all?

People who legitimately believe in a US collapse need to stop thinking videogame and start embracing the idea that if your locale turns into a warzone, you need to leave, and you better leave before the warzone reaches you. Playing cowboys and Indians isn't as much fun when it's real bullets, real fires, real poison in the well, real epidemics, and all the other things that can happen in conflict. Doomsday isn't casual post-hurricane looting (which just about never happens to homes anyway.) It's people killing people to control land and water, not for short term profit-taking and cans of spam.

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MrSparklesan@reddit

I worked on a mine site years ago that had two self driving quad bikes with a AI camera on it. Just constantly did laps of the 30 mile radius. if fence was detected to have changed it would stop and alert control room.

This was 2015 so likely stuff is way more advanced these days.

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JustinMcSlappy@reddit

3x as many people that are trying to get in.

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shakebakelizard@reddit

It depends on a lot of factors. You could probably get away with a much smaller group by using technology. Pole cameras, drones, radios, wireless alarms, trail cameras and long-range snipers on duty would go a long way towards using your resources wisely.

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Somebodysomeone_926@reddit

Landmine around perimeter and in areas you won't be in often. No problem for a few guys if they know what they are doing.

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tog4256@reddit

Dogs

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No_Amoeba6994@reddit

Depends on what you ae looing to secure, what the threat is, and how long you need to secure it.

If you are looking to secure a reasonably sized farm against a major, organized threat 24/7 for weeks on end while also keeping it running, you are talking a minimum of several dozen people as security, plus more to actually do the work.

If the threat is just random vagrants or low-level thieves looking for an easy target, probably 3 - 5 people (i.e. 3 8-hour shifts, plus extra in case folks get sick) would work as a deterrent.

If the threat is organized but fast moving (say a militia on the march to attack some other target, but looking to scrounge/steal/forage food from places on the way), then you just need to be a hard enough target that they would prefer to either avoid you or pay/trade with you for goods.

As with most of these types of questions, I think it is instructive to look at how threats were handled in the past.

In the Anglo-Scottish border region in the 15th and 16th centuries, there were organized gangs of Border Reivers. They were primarily interested in stealing cattle and goods and were not primarily killers (although they did plenty of that, too). The defense was for individual farms to build fortified homes (bastle houses) with stables on the first floor and living quarters on the second floor, with access to the second floor being by a ladder. At night, livestock and valuables would be secured on the first floor and people on the second, and if raiders tried to break in, you could fight and defend the home. Make it a hard target and they would move on to some other family.

On the other hand, look at how colonists created defenses on the North American frontier in the 17th and 18th century. Here, the enemies were hostile indians and colonists from other European powers. They would steal whatever they could carry, but primarily wanted to kill or drive off whoever currently occupied the land. As a result, the defense was different. Individual homes were sometimes fortified, but were usually very simple and basic. Instead, each community would build a single, relatively small fort, usually just a stockade around some of the more well-built homes. When a raid was expected or feared, the surrounding families would move themselves, their livestock, and their valuable equipment into the fort and defend that, giving up their homes and crops in the field and allowing those to be destroyed while they defended just the fort. When the threat passed, they would either rebuild or vacate the area and retreat to safer settlements.

Basically, the motivation of your opponent is important. If your threat is someone who wants to steal goods, making yourself a hard target may be enough to dissuade them. However, if your threat is someone who aims to kill you or displace you, making yourself a hard target is not enough, you will likely have to join together with other groups at a central location and forfeit any property you cannot move.

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S0PHIAOPS@reddit

Depends on if you are relying on just people or leveraging systems to assist (depending on your situation). A properly leveraged system can cut down on the man power needed dramatically with an effective operator.

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kkinnison@reddit

More than what ever might try to attack

Until there is a larger force that overcomes your security. then you are screwed.

that is why it is best to look unimportant and not interesting as well as being away from major traffic in a true SHTF

I could easily my home against one or two goons even if armed. but they would break in and this assumes they dont have buddies who will come in greater numbers to avenge the death

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dicrydin@reddit

Get some dogs. More important is to look unappealing towards vagrants. Well tended garden and a guy sitting in a tree stand with an assault rifle looks like there’s something worth looting.

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ToughPillToSwallow@reddit

If you want to consider defending an area of that size, and the bandits are at all organized, you’ll need fortifications of some kind. Brick walls, caltrops, ditches, and a house that can resist gunfire. And a whole bunch of people guarding in shifts. Not to mention an incredible amount of firepower.

Others have mentioned that the degree of rurality is a factor, but I suspect that will cease to matter after a while in a long term societal collapse.

I’m not prepping seriously for anything that dramatic, but I’ve given it some thought. I’d start by discussing this with anyone like minded who might like to join you in this apocalypse scenario. And work on fortifying the house itself. For example, get some steel storm doors which you could keep in the barn, but then install on every door and window when necessary. You could gradually build a cinder block wall around most of the property, leaving gaps to encourage bandits to go where you want them to go. If you really want to look like a crazy person, you can build several pill box redoubts around the house. All of that construction and planning is very doable. The hard part is finding the people you help you man this farm if the time ever comes.

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GarthDonovan@reddit

You wouldn't protect 5x5 miles actively. You'd be better off having a defensive position. a defensive position is a force multipler. You could, however, have indicators and early warning devices and scouts. That's kind of how kingdoms and forts were in the old days.

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VitalRMS@reddit

Good guard dogs come in handy for this. Anyone with some acreage really should have a handful of outside dogs that will help keep watch.

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Repulsive-Shallot-79@reddit

Well.. buckle up buddy. It's never gonna happen.. maybe A.I. but not run of the mill country collapse.. that said.. hypotheticaly an airgapped system with turrents is getting increasingly more affordable I do believe. Yep.. you can build your own CROWS. Go touch the grass, enjoy life.. quit what ifing life ffs. It's miserable. We're all gonna die. I mean they think almost every organ will be able to be replaced but the brain in 30 years time. Save up for that. Hell... fund that.

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AxeBeard88@reddit

It's going to depend on a ton of variables... Firstly, yes, the aera you would be defending. Second, what equipment do you have and how much? Third, what equipment do they have and how much? What is everyone's background? Do they know the area? What kind of tactics would they use? Do they know you are there or the equipment you have?

I've worked on a GIS project for a hypothetical military takeover of the city I live in, and there is just so much in these scenarios that you can't really realistically prepare for. You won't know your opponent's thoughts or strategies, you won't know your situation or theirs... You can only ballpark it.

I would say the limiting factor is topology and equipment though. If you could narrow all of that down, equipment specs and ranges, you'd probably get an answer worth looking at.

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SmoovCatto@reddit

will take THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN . . .

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shepard308@reddit

You could use fiber optic cable buried in the ground for the perimeter and have a program that can detect when humans or cars pass by your property. The fiber optic cable can sense the vibration of anything passing by and alert you at any given moment.

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Lethalmouse1@reddit

"To secure" is a loaded question, as the reality of most security is that it's a give and take. Like, people always want to save money on security, reduce burdens to productivity etc.

The other issue is the state of the militia. Even for a country, right? Like the less militia default, the more military is needed being active.

If you have people on the farm all generally with it, all carrying, etc, you need less professional security. If you have willy nilly civilians, more.

Also, how big are the threats? It's not useful to have a 1 man patrol to defend against perceived threats of 30 man attack teams.

But for 5 sq miles:

Assuming non-security personnel are functional for the village.

Assuming you're looking for this more maximum security within a wiggle. (Not just chilling).

Assuming your most expected threats are loners - 5-ish men bandits.

Assuming decent inner security and protocols for venturing out.

6 men lower threat periods, teams of 2 split among shifts. Higher threat periods, teams of 3 in two shifts. With the other 3-4 being as ready as possible of the alarm sounds + the "militia" aka, non security dedicated, to respond to issues.

If you're just a family chilling, then you just have to live like all of human history, keep your head on a swivel and stay strapped.

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ElkOwn3400@reddit

There is no security in this world. Only opportunity.

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silasmoeckel@reddit

Location and reasonable capabilities of your OPFOR are the first huge variable.

Then is the technical capabilities on your end.

How many people required will vary immensely depending on how much you have in the way of force multipliers. Got good CCTV coverage and can you deny them the ability to move though areas with obstacles so you can get your forces ready to deal with them. Can you just deny them the ability to move through an area say it's a cliff.

Few of us are going to have the luxury of having some mesa with a reliable spring surrounded by miles of nothing. So it's all variables.

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ManyThingsLittleTime@reddit

Patrolling is a means to make contact to then call in whatever available support you have like other troops or artillery or whatever you have. Security is more like sitting and watching an area.

How many people totally depends on the area you're in, the weather, the moon, what equipment you have, what the enemy has in equipment and forces, and more. There isn't a one size fits all answer. A farm in the edge of town is a different scenario than one that's 200 miles from the nearest city.

You should narrow the request to some more specific scenario if you want any kind of meaningful answer.

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mavrik36@reddit

Dependa on the threat model, you should probably not have anyone doing security full time in groups under 100, make sure everyone who's able bodied is armed and able to perform security functions as well as other essential roles

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Ripley224@reddit

It depends mostly on outside factors. Is the farm really close to towns our densely populated area or is it 100 miles from the nearest person? Is the there natural barriers? Is this a well known farm? Are your key assets close to each other or far because you surely can't being driving in a SHTF.

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Formal_Pension_9456@reddit

You don’t need people on every entry point. You’re better off having cameras and using you’re force as a QRF

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EasternPangolin6073@reddit

METT-TC. There’s so many variables to establishing adequate security in the real world, a set percentage would be impossible to set or adhere to in all scenarios.