Esoteric question: In the UK, do male (and I suppose female) given names contain cultural cues?

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

To the extent that you can guess that Theodore, Tarquin, Rupert and Xavier are probably upper/middle class kids and Maddylyn and Braxton are the kids of working/underclass younger parents.

But Josh, Christopher and Sophie are anyone’s guess.

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But Xander went to a CofE school and is really academically gifted. However, he crumbles in the outside world. (This is less a stereotype and more my assessment of the only bloke named Xander I've ever known. He was a prat but well-meaning).

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Consistent-Two-6561@reddit

I know two teenage Xanders. Both very working class. One works hard, the other hardly works. Also two Xaviers, not posh at all. And yes, one Xander is the brother of one Xavier.

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ApprehensiveElk80@reddit

Parents were Buffy the Vampire Slayer fans?

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Consistent-Two-6561@reddit

I have never watched Buffy. Is Xander/Xavier important? My pop culture reference for Xavier is X Men.

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ApprehensiveElk80@reddit

Yes - one of the main characters in Buffy was Xander.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Yes, but in the UK at least there are more Xavier’s in private schools than OFSTED poor ones.

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Constant_Oil_3775@reddit

I would assume it was a Spanish or Latin American family rather than a posh one

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Would that be pronounced Havier? In the UK I’ve met quite a few Xavier’s pronounced Zayvier. Also Alexander’s who go by Zander or Xander.

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DotComprehensive4902@reddit

Depends on where the Catholic family are from.

Latin America...Havier
UK...Zayvier Ireland....X-avier

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ApprehensiveElk80@reddit

X-Men Fans - X-Avery

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MrsKToBe@reddit

I know a Josh (short for Joshua) he’s ridiculously posh but he’s an absolute sweetheart. My nephew is Christopher and definitely not posh. 🤣the only other Christopher I know isn’t posh but his missus thinks she’s the bloody Queen 😡🤣 I don’t know any Sophie’s but I’ve always thought it a posh name. I also used to know a Rupert but mystifyingly his name was actually Adam (no I have no idea either) he was a bit posh but not horrendously so. Lovely guy though.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Called name totally unrelated to actual name is a hint of either name in another language or 'posh' and given a family name due to tradition (thought could be the same reason but not 'posh' just that posh families might be more likely to keep the tradition. It's possible your Rupert was named Adam as a family name and either his parents didn't like it but did it for tradition and actually liked Rupert, so that's what he went by, or he was one of several Adams in the wider family named for tradition (first son, or something like that) and they wanted him to have a name different from his cousins.

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firerosearien@reddit

Levi as a first name is rarely Jewish, at least in the US - it is a (I think) common LDD first name though

(Im Jewish and I know people with a surname of Levy, but not a first name)

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Its more nuanced now - I know a kid called Enzo - half white British half Morroccan - mum just liked it

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Oh definitely. I think that time changes these things. These days it’s a lot more common to see ‘ethnic names’ that don’t match someone’s ethnicity or heritage. Of course all this changes over time. 30 years ago a little girl named Hermione probably had parents well read in Greek mythology. Today, Harry Potter adults for parents. And therefore, fewer parents who are inclined toward Greek mythology naming their kid what has now become a trendy name associated with children’s fantasy rather than sophisticated literature.

Similarly I wouldn’t be surprised if Isabella climbed in popularity not due to a lot of babies being born to Spanish and Italian parents, but due to Twilight fans coming of childbearing age.

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lovedvirtually@reddit

I would assume Ola was Polish and it was a nickname for Alexandra!

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Olawale, Olafemmi… it’s an extremely common root for names in Yoruba.

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Quazzle@reddit

They may hold some very limited information about people’s social class. Don’t underestimate the pervasiveness of the British class system; people make subconscious judgements of other people based on it all the time.

However as people can name their kids whatever they like and names go in and out of fashion it’s really hard to explain it as something that’s systemic.

If someone introduced themselves as Kayden or Chanel I would immediately assume their parents were working class.

Likewise I would expect any Augusta or a Julian I met to be posh as fuck.

Most names e.g. Tom or Sarah are completely neutral.

Tarquin - a name rooted in Roman history- is the stereotype name of a very posh private school educated man. However because that name itself has recently become a meme I doubt no one now is ever going to choose it until it drops out of the social lexicon again.

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Purple_Bureau@reddit

I think how you shorten a name speaks volumes too.

Charlotte who calls herself Charlie= neutral.

Charlotte who called herself Lottie = posh

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semicombobulated@reddit

The male equivalent of this is:

Jonathan who calls himself Jon = neutral

Jonathan who calls himself Jonty = posh

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AspectPatio@reddit

Jonno = Essex, rarely sober J-Man = upper middle class, ironic blaccent Big John = plays in local snooker tournaments Johnny = has gone for a soldier

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KesselRunner42@reddit

> Johnny = has gone for a soldier

Snrk. I'm American (New England), and we sang that song in Elementary school for some special days we had every year celebrating Colonial era history. You just brought back some memories here.

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GaijinFoot@reddit

Ah but the posh guys give each other more working class nicknames these days. Jonno is 100%what a posh guy would call is utterly mad lad.

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RiskyBiscuits150@reddit

Christopher who calls himself Chris = very neutral

Christopher who calls himself Tophe or Topher = very posh

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a_f_s-29@reddit

Don’t forget Kit (posh)

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RiskyBiscuits150@reddit

Good point!

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a_f_s-29@reddit

Don’t forget Kit

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AttentionOtherwise80@reddit

My son Christopher moa Ed because his brother and sister have names of 5 letters. So he signs Chris. But he really doesn't mind which he is called.

Topper Grace, the actor, That 70s Show, is the only one I know.

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Every_Ad7605@reddit

Only Topher I ever heard of was a drug dealer

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RiskyBiscuits150@reddit

I've only known posh ones. Although I've also known posh drug dealers so the two things aren't necessarily exclusive.

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a_f_s-29@reddit

Christopher who calls himself Chris: neutral Christopher who calls himself Kit: posh

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a_f_s-29@reddit

I forgot Topher! Never met one of those in the flesh though lol

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eatmycreampasta@reddit

Over here Jonty is posh and Jonto is working class. The last letter makes all the difference.

I know one of each. The first is a dentist, the second one did 5 years for an antisemitic hate crime in brum.

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AtebYngNghymraeg@reddit

Similarly:

Alexander who calls himself Alex = neutral

Alexander who calls himself Xander = wanker

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Every_Ad7605@reddit

Alexander who is known as Sandy - Teuchter

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hooligan_bulldog_18@reddit

Do you mean teuchter- as in any jock? Or the correct meaning being highland jock?

I can't honestly say I've met any teuchter sandies, it's far more popular in central belt.

They're usually called Alasdair and other weird scottish spellings of common names

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Every_Ad7605@reddit

I am referring to rural North East Scots not Central Belters. I did not know it was common in the Central Belt (never lived there), and all the Central Belt Alexanders I have met just went by Alex or Alec. Yes, Alasdair is the Scottish Gaelic version of Alexander. Also "Alasdair" isn't any more of a "weird" spelling than "Alexander", given it is neither originally an English nor a Gaelic name but Hellenic.

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hooligan_bulldog_18@reddit

That's a long way of saying you're a prick.

It is 100% a weird spelling only usually seen in 1 corner of 1 wee pokey country. But hey, ho.

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Every_Ad7605@reddit

W⚓

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ScreamingEmptyVoid@reddit

James who calls himself Jam = metalhead

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brinz1@reddit

Rebecca, Becky, Becca, and Bex are four very different women

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bateau_du_gateau@reddit

Similarly Jennifer calling herself Jenny or Niffer.

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Purple_Bureau@reddit

Is Niffer an actual thing!?!

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Asayyadina@reddit

Victoria who calls herself Vicky = neutral

Victoria who goes by Tor = screamingly posh

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Purple_Bureau@reddit

Yes!!!!!!!

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WulterLupe@reddit

Lottie is common actually

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TheGeordieGal@reddit

I know 2 Charlottes who go by Lottie. Neither is posh and both have very much working class parents.

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NarwhalPrestigious63@reddit

I knew a Lottie when I was growing up. Her family was the exact opposite of posh, far too many children in too small a house. She seemed loved, but there was never enough money to go around for anything but the basics, and none of the kids could get quiet time or space to do homework, so they had extra struggles at school too.

That has coloured my view of Lottie (although I don't think she was a Charlotte).

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Mammyjam@reddit

Just blown my mind because I’d never considered that Lottie was short for Charlotte before. For what it’s worth we’ll call the Charlotte in our friend group ‘Crack’

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Glad_Possibility7937@reddit

Desparate because there are too many Charlottes in our circle.

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ninjomat@reddit

I think Hugo is the new tarquin. You’ll never meet a working class Hugo

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AuroraDF@reddit

I know two Hugos. Neither are working class. Haven't come across a Tarquin yet.

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digital_pariah@reddit

I met a Silas the other day. First Silas I've known of in my many years of being alive.

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Fit_Manufacturer4568@reddit

How was his horse?

https://youtu.be/3o1XazhZ_es?si=qJcmdoHfsqK6bIy0

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DotComprehensive4902@reddit

Silas is on of those names you hear only in period drama or an old man in 1960s British films

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UserCannotBeVerified@reddit

I met a kid called Sirius...

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Annoyed3600owner@reddit

When John McEnroe's wife announced that she was pregnant, I pointed to her uterus and shouted "you cannot be Sirius".

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auntie_eggma@reddit

I want to believe their parents were astronomers but I think we all know better.

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UserCannotBeVerified@reddit

The mum wears a big witches hat every day of the year so I'm sure we all came to the same conclusion

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AspectPatio@reddit

To be fair, it would be cool to just have that as normal fashion.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

Sigh.

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Dic_Penderyn@reddit

You serious?

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MsLuciferM@reddit

I also know two Hugos. One is a dog.

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demonicneon@reddit

A far more interesting topic.

We are here talking about rich or poor names when really we should be talking about names people call their kids that are 100% dog names

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MsLuciferM@reddit

I’ve had that conversation recently IRL. My friend is pregnant and seems to like old fashioned names or dog names for her child. Rupert being the favourite so far. To me that will always be the name of the family dog.

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ArchdukeToes@reddit

Or a bear.

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Kinitawowi64@reddit

I went to university with a guy called Rupert Behrmann. I suspect his parents hated him.

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squashedfrog92@reddit

I’ve met a Tarquin, really nice social support worker, very down to earth but clearly very well off too.

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GaijinFoot@reddit

I know one Hugo it's related to the royal family a few cousins away.

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pafrac@reddit

The only Hugo I know is a Schnauzer. He's definitely not posh, unless it's posh to lose your mind when anyone gets near your front door.

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echocardio@reddit

That’s as Home Counties as it gets mate

Bet he’s got a bangin’ colonel’s moustache too the little blighter

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BrightPinkSea@reddit

I think it used to be but I feel like Hugo has got super popular in the last few years and appears in all social classes now. I know of at least 3 working class Hugos

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demonicneon@reddit

I’ve met some working class dogs called Hugo

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I know a few! It’s a common baby name atm.

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Fit_Manufacturer4568@reddit

Tarquin - Viz Modern Family.

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FDUKing@reddit

What about Agamemnon, what does that say?

I met a couple who called their child Agamemnon, I asked him what his friends call him at school. Agamemnon apparently

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Lumpy-Mountain-2597@reddit

To his face

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AppropriatePut3142@reddit

Maybe they are enthusiasts for rape, war crimes and murdering your daughter? Hard to read that one.

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Quazzle@reddit

They either love classics or they love the acting of Brian Cox? Maybe they’d been watching lots of Succession.

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Asayyadina@reddit

Another class tell is whether the common dimunuitive is their full name or a nick name.

Freddie - more likely to be working class

Frederick who goes by Freddie - more likely to be middle/upper

Double barrelled first names are another one. Very rarely found amongst the middle or upper classes. Lucy-Grace or Lily-Mae is unlikely to be posh.

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afcote1@reddit

French ones, however, like Marie-Therese, will be

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Asayyadina@reddit

Yes, European traditions are very different! If I have a child with a name like that is my classroom I assume that they have at least one French parent from a very well-to-do, traditional family.

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SaxonChemist@reddit

Julia, known as Jules - has a pony

Henry, especially if he's Hal or Harry to his friends, is also likely to play polo

If it's a male name with -ina tacked on the end they're probably Highland Scots

Surnames used to be a lot more geographically specific, so you wouldn't find Sowerbys in Cornwall, or Spillets in Cumbria, but we're a much more mobile population in the last 150 years, so that's less true than it once was.

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Routine_Ad1823@reddit

"Julia, known as Jules - has a pony"

I read this as Julian, known as Jules - has a pony tail... but I think that also works

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marquis_de_ersatz@reddit

I used to have a friend called Georgina and I never told her but I thought it was the most horrible name, like her parents wanted a george and just made do.

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SaxonChemist@reddit

Growing up I had a family friend called Donaldina. Nothing screams "we wanted a son" more

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Present_Program6554@reddit

My aunt was named Hectorina

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Phantoms_Diminished@reddit

Absolute worst - Murdina - female version of Murdo.

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Honkerstonkers@reddit

Nigella.

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Tay74@reddit

What are some of the Highland Scots examples? I'm Scottish and I've never had an association with Georgina or Christina as being particularly Scottish, nevermind Highland names, and I can't think of any others?

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ithika@reddit

Thomasina, Jamesina, they're pretty obscure these days but the census for past decades is full of this stuff.

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SaxonChemist@reddit

Donaldina sticks out

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Glad_Possibility7937@reddit

Nancekivell and Shieldods are still fairly specific

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bateau_du_gateau@reddit

The people who call their kids things like Tarquin and Jemima are not aware of memes

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DotComprehensive4902@reddit

Sarah...is one of those names that suggest upwards mobile with a side order of pretentiousness

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Glad_Possibility7937@reddit

Also no one with classical knowledge would actually use that name. I hope.

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PhantomLamb@reddit

Golden Graham's?

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TessaKatharine@reddit

Graham Crackers, too, a traditional American biscuit. NOT what Americans would call a biscuit though, I believe that's like our scones. Apparently digestive biscuits or hobnobs are the closest UK equivalents.

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_weedkiller_@reddit

Can’t find these anywhere these days.

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thewearisomeMachine@reddit

Golden Graham's?

Golden Grahams*

No apostrophe - they don’t belong to Graham.

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PhantomLamb@reddit

Golden Grams in America?

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thewearisomeMachine@reddit

Ew

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WeirdLight9452@reddit

F I don’t know about the whole UK but where I live anyone called Dave is middle-aged and most likely working class. Because if you’re posh you’re David, a Dave is only David if he’s in trouble.

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Hard_Loader@reddit

I once saw a documentary where the famous Attenborough brothers were interviewed. They're Sir David and Lord Richard to us but rather endearingly they just referred to each other as Dave and Dick.

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Fit_Manufacturer4568@reddit

Dickie, wasn't it?

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Hard_Loader@reddit

No, just Dick. His actor chums called him Dickie.

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WeirdLight9452@reddit

Fair enough, I don’t think any of us would ever have got away with calling them that though.

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Colloidal_entropy@reddit

Dave is ubiquitous in men around 60, a few years back I recall there being more FTSE CEOs called Dave than women, so certainly extends to the upper end of middle class, though maybe not posh as the gentry would be Chairmen.

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WeirdLight9452@reddit

At my work we have many Davids in the directorate but no Daves. Whereas I live in a village where like 40 percent of men between about 45 and 70 are called Dave. But it may just be where I live lol

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Fluid_Succotash4032@reddit

When it comes to nicknames, I’ve noticed non-posh people often register the nickname as their child’s legal name - Charlie, Tom, Jack, Kate. Posh people actually often take the exact same nickname, but their birth certificate name will always be the full name - Charles, Thomas, John, Catherine.

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SilyLavage@reddit

Most names are neutral, but some are associated with certain classes:

A Benedict, St John, Lancelot, Lucinda, Rosamund, or Arabella will often be assumed to be at least upper middle class.
A child called Oscar, Archie, Theo, Florence, Mabel, or Elsie will be assumed to have twee middle class parents
A Gary, Kevin, Mike, Jackie, Tracey, or Mandy will often be assumed to be working class.

Hyacinths think they're middle class, but we all know the reality.

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Those particular middle class names are v popular in general atm, and don’t come across as middle class.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Actually in my experience as a current parent of kids those middle class ones are spot on - Ivy Elsie Archie Florence Flora Clara Naomi Theo Esme Caleb !

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Ah also spot on in my working class area!

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Working class is a bit of a tricky title - what do we use if they aren't actually working?

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Charming! I don’t know anyone who doesn’t work, and work hard. They/we would just be offended to be called middle class.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

I was asjimg a factual question as im not sure what the current correct terminology is. You don't know anyone on benefits at all? Where we live rents are so expensive pretty much everyone is on top up UC just to survive !

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FeelingDegree8@reddit

If they're on top up UC then they do work.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

I was replying to the comment that says "I don't know anyone on benefits" your point being my literal comment about top up uc.

I was asking about families where no body works which is very different !

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FeelingDegree8@reddit

They actually said they "don't know anyone who doesn't work". Hence what I said.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

So if someone is not working how do they survive - on benefits unless they were independently wealthy !

The 2 are pretty much synonymous arent they not working = on benefits!

Not sure what your point is ?

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FeelingDegree8@reddit

My point is pretty clear.

The person you replied to said they don't know anybody that doesn't work. You mentioned benefits then said many people in the area you live are on top up UC.

Someone who is receiving top up UC is on benefits and working.

I'm specifically replying to that and not to your comment about whether unemployed people on benefits are working class or not.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

But you haven't actually answered the original question - if working class people work what class are those who dont work ?

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FeelingDegree8@reddit

Depends, as you've hinted at yourself.

Upper class people don't need to work.

Some people will earn quite good money and one of the people in the couple will stay at home to look after children.

I'm sure a few middle class people have found themselves on job seekers allowance before.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Oh absolutely.

I was concerned at the other person saying they don't know anyone in receipt of benefits.

Until recently even millionaires and Dukes got child benefit !

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I’m not sure re terminology btw, other than it being a negative to be called middle class with all of its connotations. It’s confusing/complicated!

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Why is it negative to be middle class?

It just is based on occupation which is linked to educational achievement mainly but not always.

Jason Manford has a good speech about this - muddle class !!!

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Not based on middle class I guess, but perception of people who say they are. Hyacinth Bucket vibes. Likely instilled by my upbringing and where I am from!

Yeah I guess it’s very muddled nowadays. If just occupation then I have no negative associations. Thanks, will look that up!

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Yes its complicated!

My grandparents were solidly working class cannon fodder but both parents got an education through various routes post war and I grew up solidly middle class but I've ended up living much more diverse life due to various reasons and while we are still solidly professional we live in a very diverse area where we are literally in the middle between the have it alls and have nothings.

Many people in previous generations went straight to work at 16 and even if it was a bank or insurance or in an office they saw themselves as less than those who went to university even if they ended up doing well professionally. For example being a bank branch manager is seen as middle class but in my area you can't even buy a terraced house on that salary (actually have a neighbour who is in this job and struggled for years to get on housing ladder even though she has done incredibly well for herself).

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I think that diversity is key. I have no negative connotations with those identifiers - job, education etc - they are all very positive things. It’s purely that I’ve only heard people say that they are middle class IRL when looking down on the working class or making assumptions about certain jobs etc.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Because the term middle class us part of the system of oppression - the upper classes look down on the middle classes who look down on the working classes and the other way around elitism and snobbery everywhere!

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nonsequitur__@reddit

True! Going to delete any of my comments that contain personal info but thank you for the interesting conversation

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Why is it negative to be middle class?

It just is based on occupation which is linked to educational achievement mainly but not always.

Jason Manford has a good speech about this - muddle class !!!

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Fair enough, just used to the usual assumptions! I know one person on PIP because they have advanced MS. They are also retired and drawing a private pension so wouldn’t be working anyway. Otherwise, no. Didn’t even know that’s possible if you’re working full time!

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

It is absolutely possible to need top up benefits when minimum wage is £12 per hour but renting a basic 1 bed flat where 1 live is around £900 per month plus bills and CT.

If you don't know anyone families surviving on benefits then you are absolutely middle class and also out of touch with the lived experience of many people today.

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I’m not saying they are not needed, I just didn’t think it was even possible to get anything if you are working full time.

I’m really not, but not going to get into it on here.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Its based on income and costs so yes it is possible - that's exactly what working tax credits were designed for !

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Okay fair, my sister tried to get help after maternity leave to afford nursery but would’ve had to go part time to get any help, which her job won’t allow. And growing up, we struggled a lot and had free school meals and stuff but because my mum worked she couldn’t get additional help (minimum wage full time, council house). Many in my family are self employed so can’t get any. My dad was out of work for a few years but couldn’t claim anything. So I guess that’s left me with the impression that if you are working more than part time it’s not possible.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Free school meals are literally benefits. A council house is literally benefits. Chikd benefit is literally benefits.

What do you think benefits are?

Everyone who was working can claim Job Seekers Allowance if you have paid enough national insurance and have savings of no more than £16K - so dad can't have bern on the poverty line.

Work tax credits and child tax credits would have been available to your sister - full or part time - in used them!

My point was if you don't have colleagues, friends and neighbours who get benefits then you live a very insular middle class life or don't know peoolevert well.

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SilyLavage@reddit

I think they do come across as middle class.

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Fair enough, all subjective! Just going off kids’ classmates names.

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luujs@reddit

I would have thought of Mike as fairly neutral name.

Also not sure about St John or Lancelot either. Those aren’t real names. I can’t think of any real people called St John or Lancelot and if I met one I’d probably expect them to be from a working class background rather than an upper class one.

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MrsKToBe@reddit

I knew a Mike and he was posh; but he went by Mike professionally. Everyone else called him Mikey.

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allyearswift@reddit

The Lance I knew was definitely more working class than not. Down to earth bloke. Good at his job, looked after his staff.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Michael is older not a current kids name i think.

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SilyLavage@reddit

I know a St John (pronounced 'Sinjin' or 'Sinjun') and a Lancelot, and they're both really quite posh. The most famous St John is possibly St John Rivers, a cousin of Jane Eyre in the novel of the same name.

Michael is fairly neutral, but you don't tend to get as many posh Mikes or Micks.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

I think the point is that these aren’t common names. I’ve met Benedicts and Montgomerys, upper class parents but they go by Ben and Monty. St John sounds like it’s trying to be trendy.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

Being in wide use was not part of the brief.

And St. John is an old name. Not trendy at all. You're literally just going 'I don't know that so I'm going to invent reasons to dismiss it.'

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

You seem so upset, I hope your day improves.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

Why do so many people think that telling someone who calmly related information that they 'seem upset' makes sense?

Like, do you think only upset people correct inaccuracies? 😂

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Gruejay2@reddit

If you want a real answer: it's because they're upset and embarrassed, and want to turn it around on you.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

Yeah, I just want them to know it's transparent and silly.

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SilyLavage@reddit

I didn't make any claim about these names being common, just associated with a particular class.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Yes, but I think due to the names being so uncommon, class generalizations about them are harder to make and even less likely to be upper class even if they are intended to sound so. Like, if you met a kid calls ‘Queen Victoria’ you’d probably think working class rather than landed gentry.

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SilyLavage@reddit

I don't think a name being common or not inherently affects its associations.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

I think very uncommon names that are intended to sound ‘posh’ are more indicative of lower socioeconomic class, because upper class parents don’t want their child to have a unique name.

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SilyLavage@reddit

What makes you think these names are 'intended' to sound 'posh' rather than actually being so?

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

‘Posh’ names are typically traditional. Whereas names trying to sound wealthy miss the mark. If you name a kid “Sir George” the impression isn’t that they are from a lineage of wealth. I can’t think of any kids I’ve taught in private schools who have names like that.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

Are you actually from the UK? This is very American-sounding reasoning. No one is suggesting "Sir George" or anything like it.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Yes I am from the UK and I’ve taught across state and private schools for many years and those are the trends I see in names. Feel free to have a different opinion.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

And yet you're unaware that St. John is a longstanding posh name, not some newfangled 'trying to sound wealthy' name as you keep insisting. It already was a wealthy name.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Was and is are different. I think the points I’ve made are pretty clear but you either insist on intentionally misunderstanding or don’t understand and it’s too sunny out to worry about explaining further. Have a lovely day.

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auntie_eggma@reddit

No no no. You never put forward the view that it was too old fashioned, so don't move the goal posts now.

Your whole point was that you thought it was some newfangled faux-posh name people pick to 'sound wealthy'.

And it isn't.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Are we in a pantomime. Yes yes yes! My point is that today, not in 1860, names like this are more likely to be used by aspiring ‘new money’ than actual old money. But this entire ordeal has clearly stressed you out so have a sit down and a cup of tea and think no more about the debacle.

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SilyLavage@reddit

These names are traditional, just look at Lancelot Andrewes or St John Hornby.

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Honkerstonkers@reddit

I think upper class parents are just as likely to be dim as lower class ones.

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Social capital and intelligence are two different things.

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Honkerstonkers@reddit

St. John (Sinjin) is quite famous as a class marker. Even I know it and I’m from Finland.

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I’ve never even heard of it!

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rememberimapersontoo@reddit

it’s an old posh name 🤷🏻‍♀️ just because it’s a shit one doesn’t mean that’s not true lol

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trumpetsandtrees@reddit

Yes, but the way those names are used these days is different.

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Albert_Herring@reddit

St John is basically a name from the old Catholic aristocracy, which is a pretty small niche within a niche. Anybody called St John probably lives or lived in a (big) house with a priest hole.

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Desperate-Cookie3373@reddit

There was a well-known Tory politician St John Stevas in Thatcher’s cabinet. St John is an ultra- Catholic upper class name.

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AchillesNtortus@reddit

I knew several Micks. They were mostly quite rough. There was one exception who ceased being Mick, changed to Mike as he was promoted to management and became Michael when he became the MD of a very large billion pound company.

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Colloidal_entropy@reddit

Mike is more likely a Catholic/Irish rather signifier than a class thing.

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Constant_Oil_3775@reddit

I had a university lecturer called St John his day job was to work in the foreign office and he also had only one hand the other was a sort of metal claw which fuelled massive speculation about what he actually did at the fo or if he had previously been a spy who had had his hand chopped off by Sadam Hussein

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auntie_eggma@reddit

St. John (pronounced Sinjin) is absolutely a real name. Just not especially common (either definition).

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Crococrocroc@reddit

St John as a first name

Lancelot "capability" Brown Bishop Lancelot Andrewes

Here's a couple. Lancelot was more trouble, because of the legends, but they're all generally more middle/upper class.

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likeafuckingninja@reddit

It's boooquaayyy

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FeelingDegree8@reddit

People call their kids St John? I've never heard that in my life. St John would be a saint called John in my mind.

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Heavy_Practice_6597@reddit

Hyacinths are living the Good Life

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DotComprehensive4902@reddit

Arabella is super posh and usually have a royal queens name as a middle name.

Archie I have always thought of as very working class.

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Technical-General-27@reddit

That you, Sheridan? You want how much?

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EitherBarry@reddit

What do you mean, you need a pair of silk pyjamas?

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Natural_Remove_3480@reddit

Its more about whether or not they enjoy cinnamon and gooseberry yogurt

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Phantoms_Diminished@reddit

Growing up in NE England in the 70s - the working class quartet of names was "Sharon, Darren, Wayne and Tracey" (say it every fast in a Geordie accent to get the full effect).

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MrsKToBe@reddit

I just did that (yes I’m a real Geordie) that cracked me up 🤣

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FirstAd226@reddit

In Northern Ireland some first names can tell you if the family are Catholic or Protestant.

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Kinitawowi64@reddit

Sharon and Tracy were, at one point, the canonical "Essex slapper" names.

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Similar_Quiet@reddit

Was this before or after birds of a feather?

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Yes when I was a child. Your earlier comment was about the comment about the working class not working.

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Far-Sir-825@reddit

Known 2 girls called Arabella and they were both extremely posh.

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Routine_Ad1823@reddit

And they usually have a pair of interstellar gator skin boots

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Flashy-Mulberry-2941@reddit

I've never met a Graham that wasnt a turbofascist.

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Every_Ad7605@reddit

Jaxon 🤮

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rando7651@reddit

Jacob can go both ways. Unless it’s followed by ‘Rees-Mogg’.

In that case you can infer he is both upper class and a bell end.

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giantthanks@reddit

It's the same the world over. For example, ask a German about Kevin

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StevieGe123@reddit

They do in Northern Ireland!

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LessDebt1718@reddit

Absolutely they carry cultural cues. I can make a good stab at guessing the parents’ class from most names that are european in origin. Graham is a bit too old for me to comment but its my grandad’s middle name and he was very working class so I’m going to go with that, although I could definitely see it on a middle class man, but probably not upper class.

The upper classes often name their children something from greek or roman mythology, more so than everyone else. So if you see a baby Persephone, Athena, etc you can be quite secure in that the parents are at least middle class. For boys, names like Ralph, Rupert, Tarquin, Ambrose are pretty good signals, especially Tarquin. For girls, names like Araminta or Arabella scream money.

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Superb-Restaurant841@reddit

Graham is kind of a boring, grey, safe name. If you were giving it to a fictional character he would probably be a middle manager without much personality (apologies to any Grahams out there). It's old fashioned and you don't meet many young Grahams so he's probably middle aged or older.

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Honkerstonkers@reddit

There is no excuse to calling an infant Graham these days. Nobody above 50 should be called Graham.

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DotComprehensive4902@reddit

Which .means it will be all the rage in about another 20 years.

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OrganizationFun2140@reddit

“Graham” is pretty neutral, tbh, although would be an unlikely choice for the aristocracy/upper class.

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Mental_Body_5496@reddit

Neutral but older - people in their 60s now !

Also Graeme !

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HomeworkInevitable99@reddit

I'd go as far as saying it is a boring name.

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AF_II@reddit

This is an impossible question: almost any name you choose will give some cultural clue.

Graham is a rather old fashioned name now, if you're talking about a teenage Graham you're setting the song back a couple of decades. It peaked as a baby name in the mid-50s so probably most Grahams people know are 30+ https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc363/babyindex.html#0,Graham

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DotComprehensive4902@reddit

Graham declined with the closure of the mines and the decline of British manufacturing. Prior to that, it seems Graham was the name of either the foreman or the new apprentice or the delivery guy

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Honkerstonkers@reddit

Every Graham I know is a 50+ Reform voter.

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Constant_Oil_3775@reddit

I actually thought one of the kids at school was called Graham and went round for about six months going who calls their child Graham only to discover he was actually called Gwaine

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Honkerstonkers@reddit

I’m not sure which is worse.

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Limp_Ganache2983@reddit

I may be over 50, but there is no way in hell I’m voting for that Farage twat…

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Sensitive-Ad-7475@reddit

Graham the gammon

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bimboheffer@reddit (OP)

What about Ivor?

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mangonel@reddit

Tchh-tchh-khfff.

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jeanclaudebrowncloud@reddit

Hello Dai station

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ComfortableStory4085@reddit

Hello Jones the Steam

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pelvviber@reddit

It actually...

"Piiishty kuff pishty kuff..."

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Lopsided_Soup_3533@reddit

How to age yourself instantly

Understand this reference

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AF_II@reddit

You can use that tool to check names for yourself.

ivor hasn't been popular since the 1940s; I'd guess a young Ivor had parents or grandparents from Scandianvia/Russia where it's more common.

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Constant_Oil_3775@reddit

My son had an Ivor in his class they are now teenagers

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StrawberryIll9842@reddit

You'd see a few more in Wales with the spelling Ifor

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bimboheffer@reddit (OP)

Looks like it's a Gaelic name with Norse roots. So that's interesting.

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Expensive_Salad2800@reddit

I know an Ivor in his 30s

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auntie_eggma@reddit

He's an engine.

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Hippymam@reddit

My daughter goes to Preschool with a little boy called Ivor 😊

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NotABrummie@reddit

I'd assume he's out there selling pastys.

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CBWeather@reddit

Biggun?

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snapper1971@reddit

Does that also apply to the Scots "Graeme"?

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geckograham@reddit

The fuck did I do?!!

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_ThePancake_@reddit

Outside of a hint at age and class, not really aha.

I imagine Graham is a middle class 45 year old man. Brayden is a working class 13-21 year old boy. Archie is either a 4 year old working- middle class boy or an upper class older gentleman.

Biblical names such as Joseph, Matthew, James etc. don't really give any indication of age or class, though.

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novis-eldritch-maxim@reddit

to a degree, graham is not a common name in working-class households.

It is also an older, more traditional name, but beyond that, no.

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JohnCasey3306@reddit

Some names do, and we're culturally obsessed with class.

Nobody growing up on benefits in a council estate is called Rufus or Tarquin; likewise nobody called Gary or Keith is forging career in economics, academia or law.

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Albert_Herring@reddit

Um, Keith Joseph kinda managed it, even if he never got the Chancellor's job he really wanted.

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lordrothermere@reddit

Sir Keith Joseph did alright for himself.

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Tay74@reddit

I know multiple Garys and Keiths in academia and law lol, albeit they are not typically from the poshest of backgrounds. But being called Gary or Keith is not on its own going to stop you in those fields

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FinnemoreFan@reddit

Yes, names are often class-coded.

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DapperLong961@reddit

What's with the (and I suppose female)? Why not say male and female names, or just names? It's a really odd way to frame the question.

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bimboheffer@reddit (OP)

I'm an idiot.

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DapperLong961@reddit

I'm sure you're not. I was just wondering why you wrote it that way, I thought you were deliberately trying to make it sound like an afterthought.

In other news: my given name is hyphenated which makes people think I'm posh....I'm not.

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sir_thrillho@reddit

"Nigel" and "Keith" definitely are names for middle aged racist men.

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julia-peculiar@reddit

No specific cultural cues from Graham

But they're making plans for Nigel.

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Sunshinetrooper87@reddit

I heard that song last year for the first time and it was an absolute banger and a very telling song too.

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UserCannotBeVerified@reddit

Aye but I heard that knock off Nigel buys knock off DVDs

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remembertracygarcia@reddit

You don’t meet a lot of Hugos or Ruperts who don’t have some interest in craft beer.

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YouNeedAnne@reddit

Race and class. There aren't many working class Asian Tarquins or Ruperts.

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nonsequitur__@reddit

My sister is a teacher and has strong opinions on most names because of it 😆

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ignatiusjreillyXM@reddit

Hints of social class and maybe age, yes. Darren is working class and probably both in the 1970s. Nigel is middle middle class and could have been born in many decades.

One thing that has changed now concerns double-barrelled surnames. In the past they were sure to indicate the upper crust, upper middle class or more likely aristocracy. Nowadays they are as likely or indeed more likely to be found among (often quite aspirational and reasonably well educated and well spoken) footballers of Caribbean or West African origins. In the past footballers were not general well spoken or reasonably well educated either, so it's all change...

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I was born in 83 and went to school with a few Darrens

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nonsequitur__@reddit

I think more age and potentially class than attitude.

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4me2knowit@reddit

Toby screams money

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Nah not Toby!

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spankybianky@reddit

I’d say it’s pretty middle class, tbh - I know a lot of them from parent groups. Tobias would be more upper crust to me.

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parallelgirl@reddit

Some names are strongly classed, others less so. But they're also infected by race (I know less about this, I'm most familiar with white-people names). For example I think Marcus on a white guy is definitely posh, but on a Black guy, less so. I knew a Marcus who maintained that there were three types of men by that name 'Germans, Black lads and posh twats like me'.

A British Indian friend once told me that Indian-heritage given names were class neutral but that family names were very classed.

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