Israeli strikes kill at least 100 in Gaza as status of 3 living hostages remains 'uncertain'
Posted by cap123abc@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 275 comments
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
“”Why are they killing us?” she said. “There are no rockets here, no fighters.” She added that there was “no food, no water, nothing” available in Gaza.”
Just widespread slaughter of innocents and then denying food as a weapon during war. Israel is committing genocide.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Right. Two Israeli soldiers just happened to die yesterday. I guess it was a heart attack.
Fit_Rice_3485@reddit
You mean Israeli soldiers taking part in ethnic cleansing and genocide?
Who even cares about them
michaelas10sk8@reddit
The point is that it puts a lie to the claim no Hamas fighters are left. Gazan residents either genuinely don't know, or pretend to not know.
Green_Space729@reddit
Hamas has been replenished by peoples whos families you’ve killed.
It’s such a simple concept yet gods chosen people cannot understand it.
You won’t stop rebellions with bombs.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
First, cut the nonsense. Gazans were maximally radicalized even before the current war. They had kindergarten shows where they play-acted killing Jews for fuck's sake, and summer camps where they actually trained to do so.
Second, sure - Hamas loses get replenished by younger, untrained, and inexperienced folk. But just like in the Battle of Berlin, they are increasingly ineffective. And just like Germany, Hamas will lose - causing incredible suffering to their own people in the process.
mnmkdc@reddit
Now that is the mentality that leads to genocide. Most israelis are radicalized as well. Your comment here is not one of someone who is even close to moderate.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
I am not advocating for genocide, but for the elimination of Hamas. Why would one be moderate against an extremist militant organization like Hamas? Would it have been justifiable to be moderate against Nazis?
mnmkdc@reddit
You said Gazans were “maximally radicalized” which, besides being wrong, is the exact mentality people use to justify things like genocide. It’s a way of wiping responsibility from Israel and making it seem like there are not other options. I’d argue the more radical position is being okay with the war now that the argument for it being necessary self defense is dead. Like there’s no way you can reasonably say that this war saved lives and suffering in the long run. It’s caused more suffering than Israel has suffered in its entire existence by a huge margin.
The Nazis had a military that could fight the other world powers and there was no moral or logical justification for their desire to fight. That’s what prevented a more moderate option. If the issue was that they couldn’t be deradicalized, then Germany would still be filled with Nazis. Hamas poses significantly less of a threat than the Nazis did and the Palestinian people are justified in wanting to resist Israel (but not through Hamas’s terror methods). The situations are massively different.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Please watch this video, and then tell me with a straight face that Gazans were not maximally radicalized before the war: https://vimeo.com/995955490 No, really, please watch this video before responding to me.
There is a recurrent theme in all my conversations here that people simply don't understand the underlying motivations and mindset of Hamas and other hardline Palestinian faction, as most Israelis have come to. No, it's not because of propaganda like you might think - it's because we directly see evidence that international news outlets like to ignore.
Once you understand said motivations, you start to see why they are not 'justified in their actions', and there is no appeasing them. They will use any ceasefire to rebuild and just continue inflicting more suffering on future generations of both Israelis and Gazans.
I do not support Israel's tactics in this war, but I agree with the main aim of destroying Hamas (at least its military capabilities) in an irreversible way. This is because I see Hamas as partially responsible for the current suffering, unlike yourself, and because I see the endless future suffering they will continue to bring.
mnmkdc@reddit
If they were all radicalized to that degree before the war, the militant section of Hamas wouldn’t be a small percentage of the population. They wouldn’t have gained thousands of members during the war. Gazans are definitely radicalized, as any population that deals with so much death around them would be, but there’s no way you could argue that this war didn’t make it worse. There’s even been studies showing that half the kids in Gaza had ptsd pre war. You don’t think that’s a major cause of the support for militancy?
And also, you realize Israel teaches kids that that they need to fight to protect their homeland right? That’s the whole national narrative behind mandatory military service.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
While the militant section is a small percentage, they receive (or at least received) massive support from the rest of the population. Most people won't directly join them as fighters due to either lack of physical ability/conditioning or basic survival instincts.
I agree they are justified in resisting Israel. But this notion that "we tried peace already, it doesn't work" has historically been propaganda by bad actors. I would argue the one time Palestinian resistance resulted in large strides toward actual peace was during the first half of the First Intifada, which shared many similarities with MLK's civil rights movement and Ghandi's nonviolent revolution. This uprising was a popular, grassroots one that even caught PLO leadership by surprise, back while they are weak due to their loss of Soviet sponsorship and prior to the rise of Islamist factions like Hamas and IJ. It was this uprising which buoyed Israel's peace camp and resulted in popular support for the 90s peace process.
This is in large contrast to the Second Intifada and the actions of Hamas from the 90s onwards, up to and including October 7th, which basically destroyed the peace camp and made most Israelis convinced that even though the present situation is horrible, it is better than living in constant fear of being massacred.
Yes, and what is wrong with that? So does every country in the world. If the Palestinians were merely teaching their children to 'protect their homeland', I would absolutely support it. The problem is that what they're really teaching them is that their homeland is not actually their homeland, and there is this mythical land that was unjustly stolen from them by these undeserving monsters and they need to conquer it back at any cost. This is not what the Israelis are teaching their children.
mnmkdc@reddit
There’s a big gap between those two things. I know a lot of people who would support the US military, but would never join them or even work in the defense industry. It is a different level of support to actually join in most countries and especially so with Hamas. The people support the idea that Hamas is resistance, but actually joining Hamas’s militant wing means you’ll be targetted by Israel and in all likelihood so will your entire family. Most new recruits are probably joining because they now have been radicalized to the point where they think their lives are worth losing to fight Israel.
I agree that less violent means would be far better. It’s easier to say that from a position of safety than in their position though especially since things have only gotten worse for them. During the first intifada, they had a lot of sympathy do to the growing opposition to South African apartheid that Israel backed. It becomes a lot harder to progress through peaceful means when the outside support doesnt already exist and Israel, like other nations, would suppress or escalate into violence any peaceful attempts to resist. The right path forward is complicated for everyone other than the government of Israel, who has been able to start moving forward at any point for decades.
The whole “protect your homeland” thing is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s advocating for militancy against a native population. It’s just phrased in a way you find acceptable. The admiration for the idf and the idea that every surrounding group just wants genocide is used to make people think all military action is justified. Both Palestinians and Israelis believe their military action is “defending their homeland.” It’s just a whole lot easier to say your end goal is peace when you’re the side that got everything that both sides want. It’s like how people in America do land acknowledgements but never take any real action in land back movements or similar things for native Americans. We’re told in schools and in culture that this is a land for everyone to be free, so every push against that seems like a push against freedom itself. It’s easy to make a statement, but those years of indoctrination come flooding back whenever people realize that meaningful change might inconvenience them. I know that that is a very wordy way of saying something pretty obvious, but I feel like it’s worth pointing out the actual implications of calling something “our homeland” when other people with just as much right to the land or more don’t get to treat it that way. And similarly, you see lots of militancy break out when that land is at risk of being taken. We saw the same with Zionist terror groups in mandatory Palestine. The more people feel that their land is at risk, the more they’ll support just about anything to hold on to it.
Also I’ve said this many times on reddit, but groups like Hamas will always get support as long as they can pose as “resistance” to their constituents. It doesn’t even matter if they’re actually resistance. People are not going to blame the “resistance” group for the actions that the side they’re “resisting” makes. The only way to make long term progress against them is to root out the reason the people want to resist in the first place.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Only deluded people who sre disconnected from reality would compare Gazans to Nazis.
As if Israelis aren't radicalised, aren't trained to kill Palestinians from an early age.
Israelis have to be taught to hate Palestinians because they barely interact with any, while Palestinians hate Israelis because of their lived experience, the poverty they have to endure, the bombing, the occupation, the apartheid system, the constant brutalisation, imprisonment.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
I am not comparing Gazans to Nazis. I am comparing Hamas to Nazis. There are lots of similarities. Just like the Nazis, they brainwashed their people to pursue revanchist fantasies of reclaiming territory (i.e. present-day Israel) and trying to genocide its inhabitants. Just like the Nazis, there is no appeasing them, and they attack first.
Cut the crap about Israeli and Palestinian education systems sharing any similarities. I happen to have the real experience of being raised here. Nobody teaches us to hate Palestinians - we have the real lived experience of the Second Intifada, the rise of Hamas, and October 7th to teach us that any goodwill or appeasment measures will be punished.
Other than that one picture of settler teaching some kids how to shoot, you will not find a single analogue of the ceremonies that were everywhere across Gaza's education system and television. There, hate is mainstream and ingrained. Israel's existence is the original sin that must be faught against at all costs. They say so themselves - just listen to them.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Literally the most self-aware zionist. It's insane how you managed to write all this without even a moment of reflection.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Maybe because I happen to actually know what it going on, as opposed to believing false narratives from social media.
party_core_@reddit
you know nothing
you believe whatever you need to to sooth the part of your brain that knows what israel is doing is wrong, vile, and beyond the pale
before you come at with me with some shit about tiktok, I run a custom OS that has precisely zero telephony and absolutely no social media beyond this hellsite, so miss me with that
michaelas10sk8@reddit
The person I was responding to thinks that:
1) Hamas is not motivated by revanchist fantasies (despite being explicit about this), Israel is (despite leaving Gaza in 2005)
2) Hamas does not want to genocide Israelis (despite clearly attempting to do, even when they have a choice to attack only military targets), Israel is (despite not actually not doing so even though they are clearly capable of it - no, collateral is not genocide, and neither are war crimes done by some units, which I am not going to deny.)
3) Hamas does not brainwashed their youth, Israel does (contrary to all available evidence you can easily find on YouTube).
Who is more connected with reality?
__-C-__@reddit
You seriously believe you need to be brainwashed into armed resistance against a nation who spits on you, steals your land and kidnaps, kills and rapes your children daily ?
michaelas10sk8@reddit
All the videos I am talking about were before October 7th. They were taken after Israel withdrew all their settlements from Gaza and were appeasing Hamas. And before you say something about the settlements in the West Bank (which I don't support either), note that Hamas has been explicit about seeking to liberate Tel Aviv and reconquer all of Israel. This is what motivates them. If you only you bothered to listen to Gazans, instead of infantilizing them.
Grailey@reddit
Do really think Israel had done nothing before October 7th?
‘In late February 2019 a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. On 18 March 2019, a three-person United Nations commission urged Israeli authorities to "step up" their investigations into Israeli troops shootings of Palestinian demonstrators during the protests. The U.N. investigators believe that the shootings "may have constituted war crimes and crimes against humanity."[293] The commission of inquiry presented the United Nations Human Rights Council a full 250-page report.[294]’
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
This doesn’t even mention the effects that cramming 2.1 Million people into a literal ‘strip’ of land, where no entry or exit is permitted would have on people growing up there
michaelas10sk8@reddit
What I am saying is that everything that Israel has done, has always had an underlying motive of fighting (for better or worse) Palestinian militancy that is primarily driven by revanchism (and more recently - Islamism). As a result, innocent civilians always suffered, because it is unavoidable when fighting militants that embed themselves among civilians and especially act as their government.
You don't see it because you are doing something called Westplaining - infantilizing Palestinians as helpless actors, driven only by what Israel is doing. Try actually listening to them for once.
Grailey@reddit
https://blog.richmond.edu/livesofmaps/2023/12/18/map-of-the-week-unraveling-the-borders-of-israel-and-palestine-through-time/
I agree with them. Why should the Palestinians have to give up half of their land due to atrocities committed by GERMANS?
This entire conflict is primarily due to the Western powers drawing up borders on land that is not theirs, just like the India/Pakistan conflict
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Great! I strongly disagree, primarily because I don't see it as 'half their land'. But that contradicts Palestinian narratives which deny the fact or validity of land purchases and Jewish historical, cultural, and religious connection to the land, so we can go back-and-forth.
But at least now you will stop giving Palestinians false motivations they don't really have (and that never really made sense to begin with - if you want a stronger opponent to stop attacking, why would you knowingly provoke them?), and stop infantilizing them. I hope.
Grailey@reddit
Last time I checked, Palestinians weren't the ones who caused the holocaust?
Also, the claims of land purchases is laughable at best. 'By the end of the British Mandate period in 1948, Jewish farmers had cultivated 425,450 dunams of land, while Arab farmers had 5,484,700 dunams of land under cultivation.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
So, israel legally bought around 10% of the land, declared independence, taking around 50% of the land, immediately making 85% of the Palestinians in these areas refugees.
Doesnt sound particular fair to do to a group that did nothing wrong, does it?
With regards to the religious connection, Muslims, and Christians have incredibly important religious ties with East Jerusalem, yet this is currently under illegal Israeli occoupation. Does the religious connection arugment only work for Jews?
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Never said they were. We're talking about justifications for Israel's claims to the land. Being a nation of essentially refugees is one of them.
You skipped the part where Palestinians rejected the 1946 partition plan and immediately started a civil war, including a suffocating blockade on Jerusalem. And the whole part where they were encouraged to flee by five invading Arab armies, believing they will be able to return after all the Jews have been slaughtered. Not saying the Israeli side has been innocent in the 1948 war and did not also expel Palestinians from many cities and villages - but painting the Palestinians as innocent lambs on the whole is laughable.
Historically speaking, group that started a losing war have nearly always lost land upon said war's conclusion, at the very least because the winning side wants to take away their strategic advantage.
Which is why they have their own old city quarters and can freely access their important religious sites. In contrast, Jews were not allowed to step foot anywhere near their sites between 1948 and 1967, when Jordan occupied them.
You seem to have no clue. How about you pick up a book, or better yet just watch some YouTube videos from various perspectives (not just your own)?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Palestinians rejected the partition, and instead offered a one state solution where Jews and Arabs would be equal under a secular government.
The Israelis rejected that offer, and instead decided to engage in countless crimes against humanity in the Nakba and for the next 77 years.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
That's.. ahistorical nonsense.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that, Nazi collaborator.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
So you're really just going make up facts and call everyone who disagrees a Nazi collaborator?
Ropetrick6@reddit
I'm not making anything up though? The Palestinians DID offer an equal one-state solution after rejecting the unfair and idiotic partition. The Israelis DID reject that offer. Zionist Israelis ARE Nazi Collaborators.
I get that teaching history as it actually happened is a no-go for Israel, what with the Nakba Law and everything, but surely you know even this basic history, right?
michaelas10sk8@reddit
You cannot materialize history that didn't happen by fiat. Google says it did not happen. Literally - I could not find a single source. It was not until the rise of Fatah and PFLP in the late 60s that some Palestinians began to advocate for something like a secular unified state (albeit one still called Palestine, which Jews had every reason to be strongly skeptical will protect them given what has been happening elsewhere in the Middle East). I'd be happy to discuss with you, but you need to cut the insults and actually engage with facts.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You cant find the multiple agreements that the Zionists made with Nazi Germany? You can't find any of the several pro-democracy groups that existed in Palestine? You can't find the Israelis that refuse to even consider letting Palestine and its people exist?
Methinks that false accusation of bad faith you made was projection...
michaelas10sk8@reddit
That's.. not what we were talking about. You made a specific claim which is false. There were no "pro-democracy" groups in 1947 Palestine - you made that up. Look it up and show me a single one.
But you won't do that. You seem to think that these arguments can just be made based on whatever you want to believe is true in your historical ignorance. So I will stop talking to you. Fuck off now.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Mhm, keep telling yourself that, revisionist. Don't think the world is unaware of your state-mandated historical revisionism...
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Can't believe I wasted o3 tokens on this: https://chatgpt.com/share/e/681e5255-76bc-800a-bd5f-11e40a0ee3ff
It's you who are a revisionist. Even worse - a revisionist based on pure fancy. Who is not even willing to entertain being wrong - just deflect. I feel sorry for you.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Ah yes, ChatGPT, soooooooooooo reliable, and totally infallible.
And you're the one who's working under the Nakba Law, a literal law forcing historical revisionism.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Funny, it cites its sources - which check out, by the way - but you have not cited a single one. Just lies. Begone, troll.
Grailey@reddit
So if Palestinians didn’t do anything wrong, why were Palestinians FORCED to give up their land?
If you want to talk about the partition plan, let’s do it. In the very article you mentioned: ‘The Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected the Plan, as aside from Arabs forming a two-thirds majority, they owned most of the territory So perhaps, if the Arab a) did nothing wrong b) formed the majority of the population and c) OWNED MOST OF THE TERRITORY (unlike what you tried to misconstrue)
explain to me how it is justifiable to place a country there, making the majority of the people now living in these areas refugees? Would this not cause unrest and anger towards these people?
As for the freedom to religious sights: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount_entry_restrictions
‘The Israeli government often also prohibits Palestinian Muslims under the age of 55 from entering Al-Aqsa, which makes 95% of Palestinians ineligible’ Sounds very liberating and free to me
michaelas10sk8@reddit
You seem to have missed half of my comment talking about the civil war. I would also argue that before said civil war, the land described in the partition plan was largely not their land. Nor did they form a two-thirds majority on it.
If you are talking about the results of said civil war, again - go back and read my comment.
I like how you removed "during the month of Ramadan". Nobody seems to have updated Wikipedia since then since. Today, there are no restrictions. Usually there aren't. There have been periodic restrictions since young agitators have been starting riots there from 2011 onward (in part explicitly incited to do so by Hamas), particularly around Ramadan - completely disrespecting the mosque and their own religion.
Grailey@reddit
My entire point is that there should’ve been no partition plan in the first place. The Jewish people had no claim to that land. Of course the Arabs rejected such a stupid, arrogant idea. You can see the reasons why they have no reason to accept the plan, in my earlier message, considering it doesn’t seem like you read it very well the first time.
I find that I have religious connections to your kitchen -> I feel entitled to it now -> you get pissed of and fight back -> I use that a reason to take your entire house.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
I would argue they did have claim to the land, because of the three reasons I wrote above. But now we're just going in circles.
And no, it's not just religious connections. To quote myself - religious, historical, AND cultural connections. And the whole refugee thing from around the world. And the land purchases. And the fact there was no country called Palestine previously there, so I would argue they can't really claim the proposed Jewish partition was their land to begin with.
Grailey@reddit
Hahaha that is the most hilarious Zionist bullshit I’ve seen on Reddit, and that’s saying something. The entitlement and arrogance is so absolutely insane I don’t even know what to say.
Flooding the area with jewish immigrants for a couple decades, some god that may or may not exist saying that it is your ‘promised land’, and some historical ‘connections’ from 1000s of years ago is all you need to eradicate the history of the people who previously lived there.
I’m done here. Free Palestine, Fuck Israel, Western imperialism, and Zionism.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Was never they goal. Jews accepted the partition. Palestinians were the ones who set it up as a zero-sum game of either them or us - largely because they could not envisage sharing the land with Jews, whom they considered inferior to them (not my words - go read Amin al-Husseini's writings that say so explicitly).
Grailey@reddit
Of course the Jews accepted the partition? They just got offered free fucking land?
Before this, the land was Arab majority, with a Jewish minority and a smaller Christian minority, so clearly, the land was already be shared? The problem is giving the minority the majority of the land, and getting surprised when people aren’t happy with this. Don’t know how you find this so difficult to comprehend?
Also, I don’t know why you’re just bringing up quotes about calling Jews ‘inferior’, completely irrelevant and just looks like you want some pity.
If you want to talk about quotes, didn’t someone mention to you that song in Israeli schools? Something about calling Palestinians animals?
Wow, I’m sure these Palestinians are having a great life in Israel, and definitely not being treated like second class citizens, something that’s never happened in history preceding a genocide!
‘They mostly live in Arab-majority towns and cities, some of which are among the poorest in the country, and generally attend schools that are separated to some degree from those attended by Jewish Israelis.’
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
Grailey@reddit
I find it hilarious that Israeli supporters find UN investigations are biased, yet refuse to allow other external investigations, intimidate and kill journalists, and blindly trust what the Israeli offence force say LMAO.
Do you not remember the ambulance incident a month ago, where the footage from an innocent, now dead paramedics phone completely threw out the Israeli argument that the ambulances were moving suspiciously?
Israel really has no shame.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Two things can be true at once. UN investigations can be heavily biased for the Palestinian side, while Israeli reports are heavily biased to the Israeli one - especially when reports come directly from said units who committed war crimes.
Grailey@reddit
You keep on avoiding this question: If the UN is supposdly biased, and you agree the Israel Offence Force is too, why does Israel intimidate, ban, threaten and kill third party journalists to try and stop them from entering?
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Maybe because it's a goddamn war zone where they are not safe unless escorted (as Israel has done on many occasions with crews from CNN, NYT, BBC, etc.)?
Grailey@reddit
I wonder who the one killing all the journalists are? I wonder why Palestinian journalists are so much more likely to die? ‘In 2023, nearly 75% of journalists killed worldwide were Palestinians who had died in Israel’s war in Gaza’ Do you know how absurd of a statistic that is?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Gaza_war
michaelas10sk8@reddit
You were asking about third-party journalists, now you switch the goal posts to Palestinian ones (which are not third-party). That's a whole different conversation, but I will add that it has been often documented that Palestinian journalists are militants moonlighting as journalists, so that when militants are killed during active operations they go "look! Israel killed a journalist!".
Grailey@reddit
Hamas does not need to ‘brainwash’ the Palestinian children.
Children, not youths. I’ve not noticed that Israel sympathisers always avoid the word children, perhaps because it’s actually humanises the Palestinians.
Regardless, don’t you think growing up, seeing your entire city being relentlessly bombed, your parents dying, would perhaps make you want to fight back against the people doing it?
Israel is the reason that people are joining Hamas.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Palestinians have been brainwashing their kids since way before this war, or even the previous ones. Since before Israel had a proper air force. As pro-Palestinians like to say, this has been going on for 75 years. What has? The Nakba. The original sin, which they see as an ultimate, unforgivable injustice that must be reversed at all costs. Why don't you listen to them say what they want, in their own words?
WistopherWalken@reddit
"Palestinians have been brainwashing their kids since way before this war, or even the previous ones."
Israelis have been teaching their kids that Palestinians are animals.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gaza
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Right, one song that was in poor taste (and was since taken down), taken shortly after October 7th, shows there 'Israel has been teaching their kids that Palestinians are animals'. What planet do you live on?
WistopherWalken@reddit
"One song that was in poor taste" yeah no, this is your culture. Everyone can read the comments Israelis post online now thanks to auto-translate. There's no more hiding from this.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Said article provides no evidence whatsoever to their claims that "From the First Grade to the Grave, Israelis Are Taught to Dehumanize Palestinians". Try actually reading it. It's about banning politically-motivated programs. I don't agree with the education ministry's claims, but it's a far cry from how the author seems to be interpreting it.
WistopherWalken@reddit
The article details the thought policing in Israel and mentions how school children are being used to then again their teachers and ban groups seeking reconciliation with Palestinians such as Breaking the Silence and Israeli Palestinian Bereaved Families for Peace.
"The focus on both organizations is not coincidental; they pop the balloon floating the narrative that the occupation is enlightened, that only Jews grieve for their dead, and that the only lesson to be learned from the endless cycle of violence is that there is no choice but to continue it. The Education Ministry's decision to ban the group from running programs in schools makes the goal abundantly clear: To plaster over any crack in the dehumanization of the Palestinians, from the first grade to the grave."
michaelas10sk8@reddit
This interpretation of an implicit of Israel's educational system is miles and miles away from the actual indoctrination done at UNRWA schools, let alone Hamas-run ones. That is my point. I beg you to watch this documentary, showing interviews with UNRWA students saying explicitly what they are being taught. There is no analogue of this in the Israeli educational system, not even close.
WistopherWalken@reddit
Oh please, there is so much documentation on the radication of Israeli children to hate and dehumanize Palestinians.
What radicalizes Palestinians, meanwhile, are the Israeli bombs and bullets that shred and rent their parents, friends, brothers, and sisters. What radicalizes Palestinians is the genocide being committed against them.
Israelis cannot stop the world from seeing this truth anymore.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Go ahead - provide a link showing interviews or school lessons equivalent to the one I did, or the countless reports of what is written in UNRWA textbooks.
You clearly did not watch the video. They say explicitly that Israel's existence is what they are fighting against by seeking to undo the Nakba and Jewish presence on their land. Not a single one of them said a single thing about the "the Israeli bombs and bullets".
Just like most pro-Palestinian Western supporters, you are infantilizing them, ascribing to them motivations they do not have and setting them up as unwitting actors that simply respond to what Israel is doing (which, as I pointed out in another conversation here, makes no sense - if outmatched by a much stronger opponent, why would you knowingly provoke them?)
WistopherWalken@reddit
You live in a hypernationalist bubble built on apartheid and occupation. You have added nothing of value in your complete avoidance of Israel's culpability and the radicalization that has become the norm in Israel. It is plain to see for all those outside of your supremacist bubble, however.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
So, you will not engage with what I sent you, even though I've engaged with everything you sent me. And you will dig your heels in because you do not have a leg to stand on. Got it.
You know what, for the first time, I will downvote you. Because you knowingly argue in bad faith and actually really deserve it.
Now fuck off.
WistopherWalken@reddit
I've engaged with you quite laboriously enough, but you will never speak in good faith, so what's the point? History will remember the horrors your state has done.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
You did not engage with the main thing I repeatedly asked you to engage with - the UNRWA video I sent. Because it proves you wrong re: comparison between Palestinian vs. Israeli indoctrination, and the main motives underlying Palestinian militancy.
WistopherWalken@reddit
Why don't you comment on the well documented IDF practice of using civilians as human shields, targeting journalists, corpses of Gazan children with bullet holes in their heads and backs (no it wasn't Hamas), documented murder of aid workers and NGO workers by the IDF, or systematic destruction of all medical infrastructure in Gaza under the comical lie that they were somehow "Hamas command centers".
Israel is a terrorist nation and the IDF is a terrorist organization, fundamentally no different from Hamas.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
You lost the argument, so now you start shooting in all directions. Sadly, it's a miss. Goodbye.
Just one last thing - I don't disagree with you about the facts. Israel has committed many war crimes. Gazan civilians suffer the most. But I disagree with you about the big picture - the fundamental causes of what is happening, and what to do about it. Given what I've seen from you so far, I highly doubt it will be possible to even nudge you a little on this.
Come back to me when you are more open to factual discussion rather than just throwing angry accusations.
WistopherWalken@reddit
What argument? You just ignore any evidence of Israel egregious human rights violations. If you want to pretend that Israel is a just state and a democracy, you kind of have to care about those. Otherwise you are simply the same as Hamas. You have no facts, no argument, just apologia for murder.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Sorry, but facts matter.
There was an argument where we compared the educational systems. You argued that Israel has similsr or more propaganda than the Palestinian system. I challenged you to show me something that matches UNRWA, and you failed to, so you lost that argument.
So then you moved the goalposts and started pretending that this argument was about whether Israel is a "just state" from the beginning - it wasn't. You just moved the goalposts and hoped I don't notice. And you continue to downvote me. Again, I cannot argue with someone who is not open to changing their mind and is not arguing in good faith.
WistopherWalken@reddit
Again, so disingenuous. Spamming the same piece of propaganda over and over again. It is true that UNRWA has not been a neutral agency with respect to Israel and Palestine, but that is born out of the fact that even in "peace time", Israel kills hundreds of Palestinians civilians each year.
Maybe you should stop stealing Palestinian land, killing Palestinian civilians, and enforcing a well documented apartheid state. Nazis gonna Nazi.
Centaurious@reddit
yeah it’s pretty easy to convince people to fight the country who bombed their family and home into nothing and are ethnically cleansing the rest of the strip with bullshit settler projects. Hamas doesn’t need to brainwash anyone- Israel’s done enough to prop up Hamas on their own.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
What nonsense. Israel withdrew their settlements in 2005. Hamas is how they were rewarded for it.
Centaurious@reddit
https://www.timesofisrael.com/security-cabinet-approves-13-west-bank-neighborhoods-to-become-independent-settlements/amp/
That’s weird because they just approved 13 more a month ago?
https://apnews.com/a-look-at-how-settlements-have-grown-in-the-west-bank-over-the-years-0000019079d8d0f6a3da79dcbd0a0000
And here’s an article from 2024 about how they’re expanding?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
Maybe Netahanyu shouldn’t have been helping Hamas in an attempt to delegitimize the Palestinian government?
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Buddy, you wrote "are ethnically cleansing the rest of the strip with bullshit settler projects". Your own words. You seem to not understand the difference between West Bank and Gaza. By the way, I don't support the fucking West Bank settlements either.
Completely agree. But that's missing half the point. He was helping Hamas in large part because it was enabled by Israel's security apparatus, which believed that appeasing them would work. That is exactly my point. Appeasing extremists does not work.
Centaurious@reddit
You’re correct that I meant West Bank and I said strip- that’s on me. Wasn’t intending to spread misinformation, just was wrong in the moment because it’s a bit early here so that’s my bad
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-plans-to-capture-all-of-gaza-under-new-plan-officials-say
I’m sure no settlements at all will happen under their plan to completely occupy the Gaza strip, though.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Polls say it is an incredibly unpopular idea. Only the far-right crazies are pushing for it.
Centaurious@reddit
And yet Israel approved the plan.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
To put settlements there? Nowhere in the article does it say that.
Centaurious@reddit
To completely occupy Gaza.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
You wrote "I’m sure no settlements at all will happen under their plan to completely occupy the Gaza strip, though". I am responding to this claim.
But I feel this is not a productive conversation because you keep gaslighting me what stuff you wrote, and also you seem to be downvoting every response I make. So I'm going to stop responding.
Centaurious@reddit
Yes. That’s called a personal guess, not a claim that they’ve currently approved the plans. “Israel approved the plans” was because I thought you were saying the plan to completely take over Gaza was a right winged desire- not the settlement part.
My first mistake I admitted to as well and even edited my original comment lol
Misunderstanding you isn’t gaslighting.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Okay Safsaf massacre supporter.
3RZ3F@reddit
Yeah, I'm sure all those videos of women, children and even animals blown to pieces I've watched were all fake
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Never said they were.
Grailey@reddit
Somehow, israel’s self-investigations into its war crimes (it doesn’t allow external investigations) always seem to blame ‘Hamas’, and never the israel Offense force. What a coincidence.
if you try and think really really hard can you question why, if Israel is always innocent - the victim infact - why they wouldn’t want external investigations to be done?
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Yeah, literally no one other than Israeli Jews knows what is happening (and what they believe is happening always correlates 1-to-1 to the state narrative, a huge coincidence).
meister2983@reddit
Uh most of the young ones grew up in fear of suicide and rocket attacks. It's not some abstract thing.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
But it's something most Israelis didn't personally experience.
All Palestinians have experienced 1st or 2nd hand violence by Israel.
meister2983@reddit
I'd be really surprised if the majority of Israelis haven't had to shelter in a bomb shelter and all experience the intense security regime that comes from fear of terrorism.
It's a bit of an odd point you are making - it's well known to be a society displaying fears of terrorism. It's not some magical government propaganda - there's really are a lot of Palestinian terrorist attacks.
So Palestinians experience more? Sure, but that's besides the point as to whether Israeli fear is founded or not
photochadsupremacist@reddit
I think there's a huge difference between fear of violence and experiencing violence. I'm sure you don't disagree with that, do you?
meister2983@reddit
Sure, but
Is not a proper characterization of the situation.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
But at the end of the day, the reality is the complete opposite of the Israeli narrative. Palestinians aren't taught to hate Israelis, they hate Israelis because of the violence and oppression they experience at the hands of Israelis.
meister2983@reddit
Yes, I agree the Palestinian hated toward Israelis is also based on reality.
That's why contrary to either sides' presumed ideas, there's no simple way to reduce the intense fear/hated each side feels towards the other
photochadsupremacist@reddit
I think Palestinians will take the ending of the mass slaughter of Gazans and systematic oppression of all Palestinians for now. Then we can "handle" the hatred.
meister2983@reddit
Take as in stop killing Israelis?
No they won't. The goal of Hamas isn't to just end Gaza being bombed; it's to end Israel
photochadsupremacist@reddit
I think zionists have a fundamental misunderstand of Hamas.
They think Hamas are irrational actors that simply want to genocide Israelis.
But for at least 2 decades, their position has been a 2 state solution on the pre-67 borders, with the right of return of Palestinians.
They have explicitly said this over and over again, but of course, Israel doesn't want that.
meister2983@reddit
They do seem irrational (Oct 7?), and exact aims are contradictory and unclear.
Not as a permanent solution. Never been their position.
That's not even consistent with a two states for two peoples solution.
Bullywug@reddit
It's hilarious that you compare Hamas to Nazis as you blockade food into Gaza. History will remember you as monsters.
Zipz@reddit
Amazing you don’t see the connection with Hamas and the Nazis
They both took away elections, they both terrorize their own people, they hate Jews the lgbtq and other religions. Their genocide rhetoric. Their kangaroo courts at best and the 1000 other similarities.
It’s very interesting you don’t see it
mulberrymilk@reddit
You expect people to be mad about hypothetical“genocidal rhetoric” rather than the actual genocide happening lol
cookingandmusic@reddit
lol bro acting like we forgot about October 7th
mulberrymilk@reddit
Yeah that was one day almost 2 years ago, meanwhile the IOF recreates Oct 7 daily for over 70 years
JellyDenizen@reddit
Exactly. This is the end game for Hamas, and Israel must keep fighting until Hamas can no longer exert control over the Gazans.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Thank you. Finally someone sane.
3RZ3F@reddit
"Finally a fellow Hasbara"
JellyDenizen@reddit
I don't speak Hebrew but my understanding is that hasbara means "explain," so it refers to content but not people. Your comment would be more grammatically correct as "Finally a fellow person who also engages in hasbara."
waiver@reddit
Says the people having kids singing songs about turning Gaza into rubble in public television
deucedeucerims@reddit
You are evil
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Thank you for the productive contribution to the discussion.
IdiAmini@reddit
You're making a lot of assumptions to get to the point of yeah, we (Israel) must commit a probable genocide by way of ethnic cleansing
You have zero moral fibre left in that scrawny body of yours
michaelas10sk8@reddit
How about you learn to read? This is not what I am saying at all. The Allies did not need to commit genocide or ethnically cleanse Germans to defeat the Nazis, and yet millions of Germans civilians were killed in the process. That's what happens when you prop up and tolerate extremists, as Israel had done. And yet today, the Germans are flourishing. Just like Gazans one day can.
IdiAmini@reddit
Yes, they will flourish while Israel's reputation will be in tatters and Israeli society will have to contend with numerous sanctions and war crime tribunals for the slaughter they have brought on innocent civilians
Phyrexian_Overlord@reddit
Palestinians don't need propaganda to hate Israel dude Israel is literally killing their families and has been for 70+ years.
suitorarmorfan@reddit
I’m pretty sure the ones committing genocide, starving a civilian population and mass slaughtering children are the Nazis. Zionists shit and cry that the world turned against them, and let me tell you that it won’t get better :) you’ll be despised and unwanted for the rest of your existence.
cookingandmusic@reddit
Remind me how we defeated the nazis?
KaiBahamut@reddit
Not by genociding the Germans, if that's what you mean.
cookingandmusic@reddit
Conflating Palestinians with Hamas? Nice. Although we did in fact ethnically cleanse Germans from swaths of territory in eastern europe where they had been living for hundreds of years, so I guess if you want to make the case to ethnically cleanse Gaza for peace, that's on you buddy
Killeroftanks@reddit
Besides we didn't
They're still around and are still causing problems. We just defeated Germany, the country. That's it
cookingandmusic@reddit
Last I checked they weren’t in charge of Germany, that’s good enough for me
Killeroftanks@reddit
They just tried to gain control though an election could've won with needing to use other groups to gain a majority, and was only stopped by the new German government banning them. This completely skips over the issue they're very much embedded into the German army, police force and likely other critical agencies of the German government
cookingandmusic@reddit
Brother those aren’t Nazis but if that was even a little bit like the situation in Gaza now, the Palestinians would be living much better lives
Green_Space729@reddit
Palestinians are not nazis there natives to their land.
cookingandmusic@reddit
The nazis weren’t native to Germany?
Killeroftanks@reddit
Technically speaking, yes.
Seeing the Nazis were fascists, and that's an italian thing.
cookingandmusic@reddit
Bruh
meister2983@reddit
I mean that's besides they point. There's still fighters.
waiver@reddit
Maybe they confused each other with a Palestinian civilian, not the first time it happens.
ViccyTheThiccy@reddit
"The German response to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was fully justified"-ass response
Zipz@reddit
Imagine thinking the warshaw ghetto upswing where only 12 nazi guards were killed is comparable to Oct 7th
Jesus Christ
ViccyTheThiccy@reddit
Zionists use the exact same logic as the Germans when justifying their genocide. "The ghetto is filled with radicalised Jews that hate Germans for no reason. Everyone is either involved with the uprising or are keeping silent about knowing people who are, it's better and safer for everyone to purge them". Replace "Jews" with "Palestinians" and "Germans" with "Israelis", and that is literally how Zionists frame and justify the Palestinian genocide.
Zipz@reddit
So a bunch of people who you think are idiots and wrong used somewhat similar logic ?
And so you did too?
Jesus Christ
ViccyTheThiccy@reddit
I never called them idiots, I just pointed out that Zionists use literal Nazi logic and talking points. Is that a bad thing?
your_red_triangle@reddit
The IDF terrorists are known to kill their own. Especially if they see them waving white flags.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
This one was an ambush by Hamas fighters. Good riddance.
modianoyyo@reddit
🔻
your_red_triangle@reddit
easiest way to identify genocidal people, they see red triangles instead of stars when hit
cookingandmusic@reddit
Aaaaand there it is folks
Killeroftanks@reddit
I mean would you bat an eye if some German troops died during WW2 even if they had no direct connection to the crimes against humanity Germany as a country committed?
cookingandmusic@reddit
Comparing IDF to Nazi soldiers is wild 🤣
ShadeOfUnderstanding@reddit
No he's completely right! IOF are nazi vile scum and should be prosecuted as such. Classic case of the the victims becoming the oppressors.
Ropetrick6@reddit
How?
Killeroftanks@reddit
No, I am comparing them to a German soldier aka the Wehrmacht, two different things.
modianoyyo@reddit
rest in piss bozos
mga92@reddit
Smoking on that zio pack
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
Zio is a KKK slur, you're mask is slipping.
Zipz@reddit
Nope he doubled down.
Both let’s be real we both knew he was going to do that
Chris_Helmsworth@reddit
It's so easy to use a different way to say Zionist. These folks would prefer to keep saying it even after being educated.
There is only one conclusion that can be drawn from this.
Zipz@reddit
100 percent they choose to use it even after having it explained to them.
They are just bigots it’s not even a question
ShmoodyNo@reddit
Just hollow clearly cynical attempts you guys aren’t even trying to be convincing anymore lmao
Zipz@reddit
I mean David duke known as a KKK leader popularized the term being used as a slur.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zio_(slur)
If anything you seem to have fallen for the propaganda thinking this acceptable
mga92@reddit
Zionism is an ideology not a race.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Nobody called you a racist, quite clearly an antisemite though
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zio_(slur)
Zipz@reddit
You can use zio
But when people call you an anti semetic bigot from now on you know why now
KaiBahamut@reddit
What's wrong? It's war, people die, don't be a baby about it.
Funtycuck@reddit
Who cares about two terrorists?
rattleandhum@reddit
boo hoo.
suitorarmorfan@reddit
That made me smile, two less baby killers in the world.
EbbNervous1361@reddit
Ah yes, no fighters, right. They’re in the process of creating martyrs as we speak - intentionally starving your child to prop it up as a martyr for cameras is absolutely disgusting.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
There's a hostile population, that's enough for the old soldiers in charge. Ammo, command, nothing beats taking chunks out of the population base according to the attrition theory.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
Man if only!
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
It will always be remembered that the Israeli state is responsible for the Palestinian Genocide.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
We'll take our chances lol.
I like my alleged genocide with a dash of tankie tears so it's all good.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
“alleged” lol
What ever helps you sleep at night. My country was also settled through genocide but I have the guts to admit it and learn from it rather than deny my own countries sins.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
Ooooh how convineiet. You admit your country's wrongdoings now that almost all of the native Americans are dead and almost all their land was taken? Surely at least give back the land right? No? Just some fucking PC "land acknowledgements" before a speech?
You know what? I'm sold. We'll also completely genocide the Palestinians and then cry about it in 150 years. That way we can be as moral as you.
Solarwinds-123@reddit
Not being devastated over ethnic cleansing that other people did centuries ago is obviously not the same as being indifferent or even happy about ethnic cleansing that is in progress as we speak.
Nearly every piece of land on Earth was taken by force from someone else at some point in the last several thousand years. That doesn't make it acceptable to do today.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You are rambling because you are insecure about how your nation will be remembered. Nobody who should be taken seriously is saying the Israelis must give all the land they have stolen back to Palestinians. That would be ethnic cleansing and unfeasible.
They are advocating to end the genocide Israel is conducting. Stop being a baby. You are literally getting everything you want. You even cheer for MORE genocide. Get a grip.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
Wait? Get a grip? I thought you said you didn't want us to get a grip on Gaza? Now I'm confused. Do you prefer we revert to indescriminately bombing from the air with no ground presence? We can do that.
Prosthemadera@reddit
You sound like a Hamas spokesperson.
Because this is what the bad guys say. Maybe you're ok with being the bad guys but at least don't pretend you're fighting for justice or fairness or even for defending yourself. At least be honest.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
I'm making sure to distance the barbarians from the gates. I don't need any additional justification. If you ever have the same savagery at your doorstep, remember this conversation.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You are the barbarians though...
Prosthemadera@reddit
You are the savage here. Look at your comments, man, they're full of bile and hate and irrational thinking.
You and Hamas are the same, just different goals.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I think you are off your meds. Now I feel bad whoops
Prosthemadera@reddit
What does OP have to do with something that happened 150 years ago?
So genocide is bad and yet when OP said Israel is committing a genocide you replied "if only". So "We'll also completely genocide the Palestinians" is just your actual view.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
OP is reaping the safety, benefits and privilage of the total destruction of a society, unwilling to relinquish any of it in any substantial way, and has the audacity to criticise my own people at the far more measured response they have implemented to far worse barbarism.
I was pointing to the hypocrisy of "acknowledging" past violence when one pays nothing for it, versus the demand that I relinquish the real-life safety of my own family and kin for their sense of justice. Fuck that.
your_red_triangle@reddit
your logic is, they won't give up something they stole 150 years ago, so you can steal that today! They committed genocide 150 years ago, so you can commit genocide today.
Ever considered you would be safer if you stop murdering children, stealing land, raping prisoners, supporting terrorists? Just maybe then you would have the "safety" you so desire in someone else's house
Prosthemadera@reddit
How the hell do you know that?
Ten of thousands of innocent people are dead and you call that measured.
Hamas has killed far fewer people so by your standard you are worse than Hamas.
But of course, you didn't mean to kill all those children. It's just an accident that keeps happening, you had no choice but to kill children.
You're not human anymore.
Fit_Rice_3485@reddit
Your typing from a smart phone made of components and tech originating from some sweatshop in some country where people are slagging away
By your stellar logic you are responsible for their suffering too
party_core_@reddit
ftfy
Prosthemadera@reddit
Netanyahu said he wants to "move" people out of Gaza.
.
This is, in fact, ethnic cleansing.
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
I see we've shifted the goal posts to a lesser alleged war crime - also falsely. So I gather you concede it is not, in fact, a genocide?
Good we're making progress.
Prosthemadera@reddit
I didn't move anything.
Did I say it was? No.
Do you concede that Israel is, in fact, planning an ethnic cleansing and that you support it?
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
I do not. The temporary evacuation of civilians from territory is a well used and acknowledged tactic.
Do you prefer the war be waged with no evacuation of civilians from its focal points?
Prosthemadera@reddit
Source? Israel wants to conquer Gaza.
So if Hamas took hostages in Jerusalem you would support 1. the IDF bombing the city and killing thousands of Jewish children and 2. "evacuating" every Israeli to another country?
No, of course not.
How do you know those civilians are not Hamas? You don't.
Also, Israel is the one destroying Gaza and killing people, it's not a real "evacuation" when they now invade and occupy the region indefinitely and forcefully removing people. You know this, of course, there is no use in starting now to pretend that you care about Palestinian lives after all the comments you made here.
RelicAlshain@reddit
Really sums up the 'Israeli' position lol
GrenadeLawyer@reddit
You cut out the best part which is the tankie tears though.
Kjartanski@reddit
Never again of course didnt include the gentiles
whater39@reddit
"never again to us"
EH1987@reddit
Go look what a lot of people actually believe "Never again" means, it's very uncomfortable.
anime_titties-ModTeam@reddit
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Prosthemadera@reddit
You want Israel to commit a genocide? Am I understanding you correctly?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You understand them perfectly. It’s gross.
Prosthemadera@reddit
I want OP to say it.
bloodmonarch@reddit
Ez report ez ban for threateing violence
ipponiac@reddit
These are punishment/avangement attacks if such a thing ever happens. Their armed men is killed in action by resistance fighters in sandals and they just bomb civilian crowds to catch a certain ratio. This is vile.
jokinghazard@reddit
"We don't know if 3 of our citizens are alive, so we're gonna 100 of your people, and it will be justified"
How the fuck can anyone agree with this?
shave_and_a_haircut@reddit
Look up the Hannibal Directive, they don't give a shit.
Snoo66769@reddit
Hannibal directive doesn’t allow civilians to be killed. You guys just parrot nonsense you read without looking into it.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
https://archive.md/20240615152306/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/13/israel-killed-dozen-own-citizens-on-october-7-un-claims/
Strange.
Snoo66769@reddit
Yes, so those “dozens” of civilians weren’t killed under the Hannibal directive
jokinghazard@reddit
It's their own directive, why do they need to follow it's rules? Who's gonna stop them?
Snoo66769@reddit
Then it’s not the directive is it? You guys just say it’s the Hannibal directive then say oh well it’s not but who cares when faced with the reality you don’t know what the Hannibal directive is.
Bryligg@reddit
I wonder if years of prisoner exchanges have created a kind of sick market rate. You say "Ok, we're willing to trade 50 of yours for one of ours back," enough times, maybe that ratio starts getting applied in other places.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
It started with the math around American kill/death ratios in vietnam
azure_beauty@reddit
We'd gladly only release a single murderer for our hostages.
valentc@reddit
What about all the children detained for the sick crime of being born not Jewish?
You won't even lock up your rapists and murderers, but we're supposed to believe you care about murder?
Did those soliders who murdered the hostages face punishment yet? Or do you have an excuse as to why it is ok for Israel to kill their own civilians?
bassman81@reddit
yes, the highest ratio was in 2011, one israeli soldier for 1027 prisoners
At the end of December 2024, the Israel Prison Service was holding 9,619 Palestinians in detention or in prison on what it defined “security” grounds, including 2,216 from the Gaza Strip
https://www.btselem.org/statistics/detainees_and_prisoners
Private_HughMan@reddit
Empathy deficiency.
rattleandhum@reddit
a cultural staple in Israel.
At least there are some good people working for organisations like Bt'Selem and Breaking The Silence.
Snoo66769@reddit
Ah yes meanwhile South Africa continues to support putins war on Ukraine and fight against his war crime charges.
You guys have no leg to stand on.
rattleandhum@reddit
Oh, you think me incapable of serious criticism and embarrassment about the actions of my government? Or are you just projecting?
I'm not my government, they don't represent me. Your bloodthirsty soldiers and shitty tourists, unfortunately, do.
Snoo66769@reddit
But Israelis are their government?
Yes, you are parroting your own war crime supporting governments narrative - you are no better than them.
I’m not Israeli genius.
rattleandhum@reddit
Israelis are the ones doing gender reveal explosions in gaza, sniping journalists and children, killing aid workers and shooting them execution style at the back of their head then burying the ambulances.
Very normal behaviour.
South Africans are not the politicians who cover for Putin, which is why our press has been so vocally opposed to those actions, and our judiciary is constantly battling with corrupt politicians.
And while you might not be Israeli, you're constantly here defending them. A Zionist, either way, becase you never have anything critical to say about Israel. A cultish zealot and sycophant.
Snoo66769@reddit
Ah yes keep blindly believing the anti Israel propaganda while rejecting anything that doesn’t fit your narrative. Definitely the sign of a good, moral person that is not indoctrinated.
South Africa has press both for and against politicians, same as Israel.
And look at your moral relativism “my countries not to blame for our government, but Israel is to blame for their government” - be consistent.
rattleandhum@reddit
Oh... so the sniping of children is propaganda? The burying of ambulances with executed medics is propaganda?
How blind are you? Or just are you plain dumb?
Snoo66769@reddit
Err yes shoving “they snipe children” down your throat is propaganda - you do realise that those claims relied on 2 hand anecdotal claims and x-rays which were clearly fake?
You’ve seen the x-rays the flout as “proof” right? Can you explain how a sniper bullet can hit a kid in the skull and not destroy it?
rattleandhum@reddit
skipping right around the documented sniping of journalists and aid workers, though eh?
Snoo66769@reddit
Nope, absolutely there have been war crimes committed by soldiers - happens in every single war.
Let’s not skip over the fact that Hamas just slaps any uniform on people to create stories like that. Just like the journalist and doctor who were found holding hostages in their home.
rattleandhum@reddit
oh stfu you deluded braindead tool.
cptspeirs@reddit
But we don't feel the need to back up a genocidal apartheid with straw man arguments. Have you seen anything? The Israelis are absolutely brainwashed, and spouting the racist rhetoric of their gov. There's a ton of nuance here, but it's just gonna whoosh over your head, given that you needed to Zionist whataboutism the situation.
Snoo66769@reddit
The thing is your argument relies on the fallacy that it’s a genocide and the fallacy that Israel is committing apartheid. If that’s the basis of your argument then everything after is nonsense as well.
What nuance? That Hamas explicitly says they want to commit genocide of Israelis and won’t stop attacking until Israel is destroyed? You want to approach with nuance maybe start there.
cptspeirs@reddit
Well, yeah. If you kick a dog for 75 years, it's gonna bite you for sure. But yeah, ignoring all the history it's definitely Hamas that's the aggressor.
Snoo66769@reddit
75 years? You mean like Arab Palestinians have been massacring, oppressing and displacing Jews in the region for 100+ years (realistically 400+ years)?
Did Jews have a right to respond?
cptspeirs@reddit
You do know your whole argument now is, "well they did it first so they get a full pass for whatever it is they do. Commit as many war crimes as you want because the middle easterners did something, sometime."
Snoo66769@reddit
No that’s literally your argument being used against you.
“Kick a dog for 75 years it’s eventually going to bite you”
I literally used the exact same argument, just with more accurate historical context.
Also, it’s not “they did it first” it’s “they have not stopped doing it for 100+ years”.
How should Jews respond? Just let themselves be murdered?
cptspeirs@reddit
Those drugs just be fucking incredible. What part of the world do you live in? Can you point me to your dealer?
Ah, wait. The more I think about it, the more I realize ignoranc is bliss, and you must be blissful as fuck.
Snoo66769@reddit
How about try responding to the point?
You justify violence as a response to violence - so why does that not carry over to violence against Jews?
cptspeirs@reddit
No. You are justifying. I am explaining. I am at no point, as a pacifist, justifying. I am explaining that if you try and genocide and aparthied a group of people, you don't get to be shocked when they fight back.
Sidenote. You continue to bring up whataboutism. Israel did not exist until 1948. Post WW2. So the "hundreds of years before" are totally irrelevant. Continue manufacturing slights to justify genocide.
Snoo66769@reddit
Buddy “kick a dog for 75 years and it will bite you” is 100% justification for violence. The fact you are trying to go back on it now just shows how much integrity you have.
I used your exact argument against you and now you can see how stupid it is.
Jews existed before ww2 , pogroms against Jews in the region existed before ww2.
Again I can use your argument against you - a Palestinian state didn’t exist in any form until well after 1948 (and even today) so the “75 years” is irrelevant- you see how stupid that argument is?
Try be consistent if you want to be a good person.
CricketJamSession@reddit
Execpt for this article that artificially connect between the two reports no one claims that.
modianoyyo@reddit
enjoy your shekels, you have earned them.
Zipz@reddit
It’s so funny how whenever someone has a point that you guys can respond to you guys yell hasbra.
modianoyyo@reddit
there's no point in arguing with baby-killers and rapists defenders.
but sincerely, enjoy your shekels.
CricketJamSession@reddit
Wow all of that titles because i questioned a silly comment? You gotta be one special justice warrior.
Zipz@reddit
Yet you are the one who celebrates when people die and advocate for it
Interesting
IdiAmini@reddit
I know you're history of defending Israel actions, no matter how cruel and no matter how big of a war crime. I therefore invite everyone to look at your comment history
You now playing, and yes playing, the neutral observer is also "interesting"
Zipz@reddit
Lol yes look my comment history and it’ll show you that you lied right now
It’s funny though I’m not surprised a guy who yells hasbra at everyone is defending someone else who uses this tactic.
IdiAmini@reddit
Lies, deflection, false equivalences are the tools of Israel war crime defenders like yourself
And don't worry, people will look and see that one person it lying yet again
protomenace@reddit
This entire post is a false equivalence from Palestinian war crime defenders like yourself.
IdiAmini@reddit
You're funny, in a dumb and dumber kinda way
Zipz@reddit
Lol the projection is something else with you
Hey look two comments ago before you even commented
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/F0sxvCsq7e
It’s funny though you have the nerve to call me a liar. LOL you tried
Shellz2bellz@reddit
It’s pretty obvious that you’re the one lying, man. Maybe instead of him being hasbara, you’re an Iranian troll 🤔
modianoyyo@reddit
🥱
MoeKara@reddit
I think their point is, having the hostages is bad, so is blowing 100 people to smithereens. It's not an either or, and what's happening over there is wanton slaughtering
CricketJamSession@reddit
Yet he did not relate to my point he just became emotinal and tried to slander because in some people heads if i critisize whatever comment that is supporting their agenda wether the comment makes sense or not is bad by itself and somehow makes someone a genocider, baby killer, demon.
Zipz@reddit
No I think he doesn’t have a point that’s why he didn’t respond to it and yelled hasbra.
MoeKara@reddit
Fair enough, would you agree with my take on the point?
Zipz@reddit
Yes I do
MoeKara@reddit
That gives me hope and faith
Zipz@reddit
I think you’d be surprised most people see those two things as bad
MoeKara@reddit
I genuinely don't see it enough online unfortunately so I've tried to just avoid the issue
I appreciate the common ground
jokinghazard@reddit
Israelis know a lot about "artificial connections" don't they? Like how every children's hospital has Hamas members in it, so you have to blow it up?
FeijoadaAceitavel@reddit
It's worse. They don't care about the hostages at all. If they did, they wouldn't be bombing places where they may be.
waiver@reddit
Well, to be fair that's another way of being certain.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Yeah exactly, it’s more like "~~We don't know if 3 of our citizens are alive, so~~ we're gonna kill 100 of your people, ~~and it will be justified~~”
Designer_Holiday3284@reddit
This got me banned in the other news sub some days ago
RingSplitter69@reddit
Congratulations. I've actually tried to get banned from there a few times but have somehow slipped under the radar.
Designer_Holiday3284@reddit
Keep going! You will eventually hit the jackpot.
hamburgercide@reddit
“We claim we are being genocided but we are also holding hostages”
giant_shitting_ass@reddit
I'm gonna be honest I don't think Israel's government cares about the remaining hostages anymore than Hamas by this point. It became justification for a land grab a while ago.
EbbNervous1361@reddit
They couldn’t care less about the land so much as the hostile people living there creating uncertainty. If Hamas got their hands on a Irani nuke they’d use it imminent
KJongsDongUnYourFace@reddit
Hamas quite obviously cares more about the hostages than Israel
cyberadmin1@reddit
People keep saying that the hostages need to be held by Hamas for leverage (we can ignore the morality of capturing innocent/ who have nothing to do with the plight of Palestinians for now).
I am not seeing the benefit of not releasing the hostages. Israel has shown that they won’t hold back, and Israel can always use “they took our people” to justify any attack. Holding the hostages seems to be doing more harm than good for the Palestinians.
Furthermore, using the hostages as leverage for any future deals is a joke. Hamas is in shambles, and now they currently next to no power behind any of their demands.
cefriano@reddit
Because unless that release comes with a guarantee of an end to the violence, there is also zero upside to releasing them. Israel has made it clear that they'll keep doing exactly what they're doing, regardless of whether the hostages are released or not. Hamas has been open about their willingness to release the hostages for a permanent end to the war. They may not be useful for negotiations at this point, but it will certainly degrade Israel's support back home if they have to kill all of their people in their pursuit of total destruction of Gaza. Releasing the hostages at this point just means that there will be no one left in Gaza that any Israelis care about being carpet bombed.
GonzoPunchi@reddit
I don’t think that’s true at all. Until all hostages are released, Israel can claim them as reason to keep fighting.
As soon as all hostages are released it’s nothing but genocide. No western nation can defend them anymore. International pressure will be so much higher if hostages are returned.
cyberadmin1@reddit
No one claims a release guarantees peace, but clinging to an obsolete bargaining chip is inflicting heavy collateral damage on Gazans without producing concessions. In pure cost benefit terms, Hamas gains more by relinquishing the hostages and forcing Israel to continue its war without that pretext, than by continuing a strategy that is demonstrably failing.
Releasing them would remove that pretext, spare the captives’ lives, and deepen international and even Israeli domestic pressure to curb the offensive (hostage families already protest that the war should end once their loved ones come home).
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Mate, at this point you must know it’s about extermination/complete removal of all Gazans. If there are no hostages in Gaza, they’ll have less of an excuse to show restraint
cyberadmin1@reddit
Ethnic cleansing does seem to be the goal. If that is absolutely the case, what will holding 3 hostages do?
This was Hamas’ and friends last chance to overtake Israel. They lost. Holding innocent people hostage will not help them. Israel keeps telling the world that they’re doing what they are doing because they want to eliminate Hamas and recover the hostages. Deny Israel that excuse, Hamas can say, will disband, and we will release the hostages if you stop attacking Gaza and help with the rebuilding. Hamas can no longer effectively fight, they might as well do this if they actually care about Palestinians.
If Israel keeps attacking after Hamas surrenders, then Israel will not have any excuses and can only admit to being genocidal.
Hateitwhenbdbdsj@reddit
Respectfully, that is a very naive and unrealistic scenario. Israel already has no excuses to be committing a genocide and yet the world supports them. If Hamas doesn't have any hostages then they will shift to some other excuse. History didn't start on 10/7, this cleansing has been going on for 75+ years
Levitz@reddit
Hamas benefits from Palestinians being miserable.
Any terrorist group that is within a population benefits from the misery of that population, that's where they get their manpower and resources from. People don't randomly get up one day and decide that their lives are worth risking to inflict violence upon a group, wasn't the case with ETA, wasn't the case with the IRA and I can't imagine it being the case with Hamas. There's a reason both Spain and Ireland are very critic of Israel and it's that their populations know these tactics are godawful against terrorism and they know because they tried and failed even when the population was entirely under their control.
self-assembled@reddit
There is still a reasonable faction in Israeli society who oppose the bombing only because of those hostages. It's still putting some political pressure on Netanyahu, and hurting his support, even if it's not enough.
Grailey@reddit
Of course the Jews accepted the partition? They just got offered free fucking land?
Before this, the land was Arab majority, with a Jewish minority and a smaller Christian minority, so clearly, the land was already be shared? The problem is giving the minority the majority of the land, and getting surprised when people aren’t happy with this. Don’t know how you find this so difficult to comprehend?
Also, I don’t know why you’re just bringing up quotes about calling Jews ‘inferior’, completely irrelevant and just looks like you want some pity.
If you want to talk about quotes, didn’t someone mention to you that song in Israeli schools? Something about calling Palestinians animals?
Wow, I’m sure these Palestinians are having a great life in Israel, and definitely not being treated like second class citizens, something that’s never happened in history preceding a genocide!
‘They mostly live in Arab-majority towns and cities, some of which are among the poorest in the country, and generally attend schools that are separated to some degree from those attended by Jewish Israelis.’
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
Maintainer | Creator | Source Code
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found 3 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
NBC News (Leans Left): "Israeli strikes kill at least 100 in Gaza as status of 3 living hostages remains 'uncertain'"
Anadolu Ajansı (Right): "Doubts surround fate of 3 hostages held in Gaza: Israeli media"
So far, there hasn't been any coverage from the CENTER.
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 50% are right-leaning, 50% are left-leaning, and 0% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 3+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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