Why are Xenites more likely to defend Hope than Livia/Eve?
Posted by jdpm1991@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 128 comments
I'm a Hope defender myself and I will die on the hill of defending Hope, but I've been on this sub for a long time now but I've seen more people defending Hope's actions throughout season 3 and her one time appearance in season 4, than Livia/Eve's entire time on Xena.
Why are more Xena fans more likely to defend Hope than Eve?
ShondaVanda@reddit
Some people have a heavily misguided idea, not supported by the show, that if Hope just got a little bit of mummy's love she'd become a beacon of joy and puppies and stop being a LITERAL DEMON BORN OF RITUALISTIC RAPE WITH THE SOLE LIFE PURPOSE TO GIVE BIRTH TO AN ARMY OF HUMAN BUTCHERING PURE BRED DEMONS.
And on balance, Livia is very badly and hastily written as is her redemption via cosmic tanning bed.
Agent8699@reddit
We were shown that Hope was more than a one dimensional vessel for evil multiple times. She cared greatly for Gabrielle, in her own twisted and confused way. She cared greatly for her son, in her own twisted and confused way.
When given the freedom to do anything she wanted, after Dahak was (temporarily) defeated, she travelled to Potideia and posed as Gabrielle to learn more about what it meant to be part of a family.
When Gabrielle’s Hope was written, they may have intended for Hope to be “pure evil”, but they subsequently wrote her differently and ROC in particular gave a very layered performance as Hope that was far more than a basic “evil” villain.
ShondaVanda@reddit
i feel like you've been gaslit.
Hope did not care for Gabrielle, every time she tried to fake being good was to try and get Gabrielle to abandon Xena. Abandoning Xena works in Dahak's favour since Xena would be more hesitant to attack. Hope never says 'Gabrielle, lets run away and be mother and daughter together, forget this dahak crap' no, its 'come be my mother in fathers cult, he will welcome you if i say so' because Gabrielle important to Hope because she's the only leverage they can get over Xena.
As for her son, it's literally Hope's purpose in life given to her by her father, to reproduce and have the six destroyers who'll wipe out most of the humans. So yeah, she's invested, it's not evidence of her being good, she's following her father's plan.
She went to Potideia to give her son somewhere to feed and again, to have people who'd defend her thinking shes Gabrielle, against Xena, with Gabrielle presumed dead, Hope goes for the next generation as ... you guessed it ... leverage so Xena can't stop her.
There's zero true emotional exchange between Hope and Gabrielle, or Hope and anyone that fans have pointed out to me that proves Hope isn't just manipulating 100% of the time.
Lazy-Birthday-7067@reddit
Yes, hope did not care for her son. He wanted mommy's love she used him and pushed him away, she was only somewhat kind to him because he supported her purpose bringing evil into the world. Every time he tried to hug her she'd snap at him not to touch her.
Agent8699@reddit
The six destroyers were intended to kill the Greek gods, not humanity. Dahak wanted to rule over humanity as the sole god.
Kind of like another god that Xena helped when it came to her own child … hmmmm … yes … the so-called God of Love / Light who used a mystical pregnancy and the resulting child to manipulate Xena into slaughtering the Greek gods and paving the way for that god to be the sole god.
Gosh, it’s almost like the same exact plan, but they impregnated the brunette instead of the blonde?!
ShondaVanda@reddit
No, they were going to kill both.
There is a slight plothole because Hope REALLY wants the hindsblood dagger but if her spawn are god killers, why does she care about it.
Difference being that Xena was impregnated by angels, and not by fire after being forced to kill your first human being. Context matters. Plus Xena's pregnancy was perfectly normal otherwise, unlike Gabrielle's shake n bake 90 second pregnancy that had all animals freaking out.
I'm sure there are dozens of other gods with plans to kill the other gods, most gods didn't survive until the modern day so we assume they all got got. Whether its by a twilight or a ragnorok etc.
JennaTheMaker@reddit
At Hope hunted down by god that wants to kill her for no reason, then later it becomes a bad egg and become a thirsty killer. Killing at hundred or thousand innocent people.
ShondaVanda@reddit
Hope was gearing up to kill millions, while Livia at max only could kill tens of thousands.
JennaTheMaker@reddit
What million did Hope kill?
ShondaVanda@reddit
Gearing up = preparing to. Her plan to bring Dahak and the six destroyers into the world involved the deaths of millions of people and dozens of gods.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
?
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Yes! I agree.
ShardsOfSalt@reddit
I wouldn't say it wasn't supported by the show. There was evidence that Hope's actions came from a place of resentment toward Gabrielle for not taking the role of a mother and that her role as Dahaks daughter was exacerbated by only having a link with her father, who was trying to influence her to be evil, and not having connection with Gabrielle.
You can say it's not definitely true, but there are scenes that show Hope had human emotions. Like Gabrielle said she was half human. Dahak was her father but Gabrielle was her mother. There were two halves to Hope.
And let's not forget that Hope, despite having an adult body, was still like 5 years old or whatever. Not an adult at least.
ShondaVanda@reddit
But also each of these interactions being interpreted as genuine Hope emotions, also serve as manipulation. Usually to get Gabrielle to abandon Xena and join team Dahak. There was never a 'we'll run off together mother and daughter' it was always 'if i say so, father will welcome you' that to me says its more about getting leverage over Xena and having better chances at stopping Xena from stopping them.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
While I agree that, Eve was badly written. Maybe that was on the writers fault, making Eve into a version of her evil warlord killer mother Xena was.
But I cannot defend Eve, it probably her fault that she may have been raised that way. Become a ruthless killer for Rome, but she had every chance to redeem herself. But she didn’t before she was heal by Eli light of goodness, convert back to Eve again and gone to live with her life.
ShondaVanda@reddit
Season 5 as a whole is badly written, they wasted all that time on bad comedy episodes, where they could have actually spread out Xena not being able to find octavious or eve, while showing us more of livia's psyche and how things worked.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I get that season five maybe a great season in the whole series and there’s were definitely some bad writing, but season five wasn’t all that bad as the first hand was pretty solid and decent storytelling and plot.
But I think the second half where it suffered and where it went wrong of the whole plot of baby Eve could be a problem for the gods, that Eve could destroy all the gods of Greece and to eliminate her then didn’t go anywhere and Xena was the one that killed most of them.
EasyStatistician8694@reddit
For me, it’s about who I wish Hope had been, for Gabrielle. The writers did not do her justice in so many ways. She would have been an amazing mother. I felt cheated when Xena got to have her baby and it was the complete opposite. It’s like Gabrielle had the best heart and was written to be cursed, while Xena constantly had to be called back to the good, but got all the blessings. Of course, this changed with the time jump, but of course, Xena still got the chance to fight for Rve’s redemption. That was utterly denied to Gabrielle and Hope. I’m mad all over again every time I rewatch.
Lazy-Birthday-7067@reddit
Xena lost her son because of hope. Xena was also robbed of the opportunity to be a mother. Eve was a gift for Xena to say thanks for all the good she done and the sacrifice she made in saving Callisto, her once enemy turned alli.
IseQween@reddit
I understand where you're coming from. On one hand, I liked that they sneaked motherhood into a series about female action heroes. Solan didn't feel like a plot puppet to me, like Hope and Eve. On the other hand, I can't imagine a way to do justice to X and/or G raising children for any length of time, given their quests that often involved violence.
EasyStatistician8694@reddit
Fair. I might have preferred that they leave it out. Finding excuses to make a female character temporarily pregnant then returning to life as usual was such a 90s trope.
Firm_Introduction937@reddit
Xena did not get blessings with solan. Her sweet innocent child was killed. She had to hold her dead son in her arms. Screaming. And right after he was murdered , the town didn’t even let Xena have a minute they asked her for her help to save the other children and them from Callisto and Hope. Ephiny came to Xena while Xena is cradling her dead son to help the village. I’m sorry but that’s not a blessing.
Then yes she gets to have her other baby and tries to raise her.. which is also Gabrielle’s second chance at a child too.. and that child is ripped from them too, and they lose 25 years with their child, their friends, their family.
Xena doesn’t have blessings. Xena also gets terrible things that happen to her.
EasyStatistician8694@reddit
Yes, I’m aware. It’s a general feeling that I have, and I didn’t have the time to write my own counterpoints. Still, even with Solan, I sympathized with Xena, but I also just felt… cheated… that they had to take good-hearted Gabrielle’s child and make her the killer. It felt so unjust to Gabrielle. (Who is the character I’ve always related to most. Nothing against Xena, who actually shares some characteristics with my partner, but my strongest empathy is for Gabrielle.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I completely agree with you on that, Gabrielle was robbed of being a mom to Hope. Because of Xena wanted to kill her, because she accuse Hope of being evil and her down. Until Gabrielle to abandon her for her safety.
While Xena allowed to keep her child, even though she was also robbed mom to Eve. She got to be a murder to her for a bit, while Gabrielle didn’t.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Because I think Hope was a tragic character, that never got to change to be raised properly by her mother. Was abandon after a few hours after her birth, because Xena wanted to kill her because of the dead knight.
Was an enough proof for Xena to eliminate her and Gabrielle only hope, (no pun intended) protecting and saving Hope from killed her child by her best friend.
While Eve/Livia must have fault that she became what she become in the 25 years jump skip, but she was more terrible and bad than Hope at least Hope didn’t kill. Of hundred or thousand innocent people’s for Rome.
Then become good with the help of the spirit or light of Eli to heal her soul and turn her life around, become a pacifist and try to make herself a better person after how much carnage and destruction she cause to innocent people’s she kills.
DependentNebula5611@reddit
Yeah, Hope was a tragedy character. Eve didn’t have character development, to care about her character after Livia storyline.
Lazy-Birthday-7067@reddit
I love how people say may have killed. That baby killed that knight and strangled him with his own medallion. There was no redemption in hope as she was born evil. Killing the knight was confirmation, babies are innocent and should not be committing murder. Eve's evil nature was a product of her environment, she was not born that way- hope was born evil. That's the difference, or would some of you defending hope wait around for her to murder you.
stillfreshet@reddit
Hope was evil, but Livia/Eve was annoying.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Nope, Hope was only. Because that’s the way she was written, while Eve was a bit of a disappointment. Livia was is bad as writers was lazily written and rehash her, to be like mother Xena evil in her past as warlord days.
As Hope was an interesting and tragic character in the show, that I could have sympathy and sorry for her the way that. Hope was written and direction it went in story.
While Eve character which is a disappointment and I think the writers pretty much ruined her character, when the writers decided to rehashed her character to be an evil version of her mother Xena evil side a reason of what happened to Eve in the 25 years as an adult.
That passed in Xena and Gabrielle absent.
edskitten@reddit
I mean hope killed someone as a baby. She was supposed to be evil incarnate.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
So?
midnightspellbinder@reddit
An accident doesn't make her evil
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Oop, post it on the wrong person.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
Maybe it was an accident?
edskitten@reddit
The show left it open ended about it being on purpose or not. But not sure how it's supposed to be an accident when hope was in the goo goo ga ga stage and just crawling at the time.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
I'm pretty sure if any baby has super powers they would accidentally kill their parents.
ThaWarudo5@reddit
Because hope was never really given a chance. She was deemed evil and abandoned at birth.
Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit
I mean she literally was serial killer at only 4 hours of life strangling people
ThaWarudo5@reddit
Yeah that doesn't mean she was inherently evil as she was just a child with no real consciousness yet. She couldn't tell good from evil.
This reminds me of the show The boys, many of the compound V infused children killed there parents and many other people during their birth, but it was just a result of their uncontrollable power and not an evidence of them being inherently Evil.
I think if Eve was nurtured and not abandoned, she might have had a chance.
Many of the Gods in Xena where evil, like Echidna or Hera. But not all their children were inherently evil. They needed to be nurtured.
We saw this in Hercules when echidna had another child after Hercules killed her first 3 children, with the love of a father and mother the child didn't become Evil.
Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit
I dont know...nothing about Hope screamed redeemable to me. She was born of rape, loss of innocence, and fire of the darkest evil in the show. There was nothing Gabby could have done to change Hope, even when Hope had a chance to change, she still chose to do Dahak's bidding with her Destroyer love child.
And dont get me wrong, Eve's redemption seemed to happen to fast as well, BUT at least Eve was going around trying to atone for what she did as Livia. and even willing to die for it.
ThaWarudo5@reddit
Being born from rape has nothing to do with whether a child is good or Evil.
And this is a simple case of nature vs nurture, if hope was nurtured properly, who knows, there's a chance she might've been good. But she wasn't given a chance. That's the point I'm trying to make.
From her birth she was deemed Evil and forsaken. Leaving her more vulnerable to dahak's corruption and influence.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Exactly, Hope was only. Because of her father side and was abandoned by her mother Gabrielle, been left alone in the world with no guidance to do what is right and wrong.
Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit
Being born of rape doesn’t make the child evil automatically but it does if the father is an evil non human entity that was only able to bring the child into the world by causing an innocent woman who was full of love and peace to commit murder. She was deemed evil from birth because people know who and what Dahak is and about…also…the damn baby was floating swords and trying to kill I don’t get how people think Hope had a chance to be good. She was growing at an extremely fast pace, and she was already good at killing and getting away with it. How was Gabby and Xena supposed to sleep at night knowing it could be their last night alive?
ThaWarudo5@reddit
Again like the example I gave, we've already seen in this world that children from "Evil" existence don't have to be evil. And we know for a fact that even after Hope was grown she was still capable of love, like we saw with her son.
Even her son who was created from dahak's was capable of love as he loved his mother.
So it's clear she's not incapable of feeling emotions, which means if she was raised by a loving mother and thought good from evil, she had a chance to be different. Especially with Gabriel as her mother.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
Preach! 🙌🙏🙌
Agent8699@reddit
A serial killer for accidentally strangling the knight while playing with his shiny necklace?
Hope killed four people - the knight, Solan, old man 1 and old man 2. That’s it.
Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit
😓 accidental strangulation? Damn you Hope apologists are reaching now lol. Charles Manson also didn’t/barely killed anyone, he had a cult who did his bidding.
Agent8699@reddit
Xena is a campy, action adventure TV series, featuring a fictional character called Hope. Let’s not try to conflate fiction with very real and very disturbing acts of violence and murder.
If you want an in-universe comparison, then Xena is right there and there are many Xena apologists too.
Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit
Oh no I think Xena is RIGHT to never be able to sleep well at night and live with that guilt, despite Gabby always saying to forgive herself. I also think Callisto is in the right for wanting to kill her. I’d go crazy too if the person who burned my parents and village down was now being cheered as a hero
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Exactly, Hope never got a chance to be raised right by her mother. As she was abandoned a few hours after she was born, because of Xena wanted to murder her and immediately because of the knight was found dead.
Wicked68@reddit
I don't defend either. But Hope's dad was an actual devil or evil God. Eve was raised by Rome, without a mother. They are products of their DNA and upbringing
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Perhaps, Hope was bag. Because of her father side. But that wasn’t her fault that, she in the way she is.
While Eve may not have been fine by evil and raised by Roman, but she had to change her life around and was capable of that. But she did not even try to change, as it was only the magic of Eli saving her soul.
While I think Hope could have been good, if she had the chance to have that opportunity. Of course she never was given the chance, because she was already label evil by Xena.
As Xena never gave Hope the chance and took it away from her, while Xena gave her a child multiple chance to change and Eve choose not to.
10Panoptica@reddit
Is that even true? Defend in what sense?
The closest I've seen to defense of Hope is arguments around her agency. Some think she had no capacity to be good, and is no more responsible for her crimes than a spider. Others think she might have turned out differently if she's been raised by Gabrielle instead of... whatever Dahak sent. If so, she is more culpable for her crimes... though she still has a better excuse to be evil than Livia.
As for Livia, I actually find her an enjoyable and interesting character. I know not everyone agrees, so I guess I "defend" her existence in the story. But I don't see how anyone could defend her morally.
In terms of evil, she's on par with the worst of Xena's villains. She enslaved Amazons, slaughtered helpless prisoners, terrorized civilians with glee - all for the pretty unsympathetic motive of ruthless ambition and clout. Sure she's got Roman indoctrination and Ares' influences as extenuating circumstances... but she's basically the worst parts of Callisto, Evil Xena, Draco, and Caesar. And while she wallows in remorse after her epiphany, she never really takes agency in being good. She doesn't choose it like Xena did with Hercules - she just has her good/evil switch flipped by a gameplaying god.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
It Hope is born to be evil, but can’t blame that. She was to be that way, but isn’t her fault.
I think Hope could have been good, if she is capable of being evil. I think she could be capable of being good. But the fact that, she never got a chance to have that.
As Hope was written just to be evil in her storyline, as never a chance of a possibility that she could have been good and redeem.
While Eve on the other hand may have not been to be evil, she became bad in the future of what she became as an adult.
As I did not enjoy her as.Livia, being a rehash of her mother Xena evil side from her past as warlord. As I I think the writers, could have done better with a grown-up Eve.
What they done with her as Livia was lazy to me.
sjcs1@reddit
hope is an interesting storyline and livia isn’t??
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Yes! Hope is an interesting character, while Livia what’s that interesting of a character. Is the writing just made her a version of her, mother Xena evil person she back in her warlord days.
Which I think it was quite lazy reason for writers, written her character like that as a grown-up version of Eve.
Reinier_Reinier@reddit
Hope Inherited part of the essence of an evil god (her father, Dahak) & committed evil acts because of the darkness within her.
Livia/Eve willingly choose the path in life she took, committing evil acts of her own free will (though later repented & changed her ways).
Though I found pacifist Eve a little too far to the other extreme.
Latte-Catte@reddit
Pacifist Eve made no sense considering how the show already showed us pacifist Gabrielle was not the way in Ides of March. Yet in s6 they backtrack that lesson, and also backtrack the god of love being a good god at all. Failed narrative.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
It sort of make sense odd Eve being a pacifist, since she’s trying to find a way to fix her wrong. After she did things as Livia, I just wish it was push further in her story.
But of course to write a pretty much didn’t bother with her character, as she was pretty much written off after her last appearance on the show. As she was never seen, heard or mention again after that.
Meushell@reddit
I haven’t noticed that myself, but if it’s something I missed, it’s likely because the show wouldn’t.
Hope was declared irremediably evil when she was a day old.
Livia/Eve killed multiple people, including Joxer, was turned good in a bath of light, then suddenly all was forgiven. There is also just the fact that she is associated with the unpopular Twilight of the Gods plot.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Exactly. Hope never got a shot to be raised by right and yes, she was intended probably a few hours after her birth. Because Xena try to eliminate her, because of the dead knight.
Meushell@reddit
Yeah, and it’s weird that they have a half god child, and Hercules isn’t even mentioned as someone who might be helpful in this situation.
Like, I get they didn’t want to do a crossover, and things happened quickly…though part of that quickness was Xena deciding Hope needed to be killed…but it’s kind of weird that he wasn’t even mentioned.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Yes, Hope was half god like Hercules. It a shame that, the writers just made Hope fully evil. While Xena was right about the whole thing about Hope.
summer_james2@reddit
He was mentioned. Gabrielle says “Hercules actually that’s not a bad model for her” when talking to Xena about hope in Gabrielle’s hope
Meushell@reddit
My bad.
JennaTheMaker@reddit
She also mercifully killed Varia sister in cold blood as well in front of her.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
I loved the twilight of the gods storyline
primal_slayer@reddit
Because Livia/Eve was written pretty terribly and many hate what they turned her into
Hope is more fun and liked
Latte-Catte@reddit
Season 3 was peak Xena. Everything Eve was involved in turns to turd :/
Technical_Activity78@reddit
I’d say season 4 was peak
Latte-Catte@reddit
Im of the opinion that didn't enjoy the Indian arc which took up 1/3 of s4. Meanwhile s3 was solid from starts to finish, for me.
FunCase8801@reddit
I also dislike the Indian arc. I hate what it does to Gabby’s character. Her path for peace was so boring to me. And it didn’t make sense for her to continue to travel with Xena if they were on different paths of life. 🙄
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I the Indian saga, it supposed to helps Gabrielle. Seek out answers for her trauma of her, first kill and a failure of a mother to Hope as she hasn’t. Able to heals of that ever since, the whole event happened to her.
FunCase8801@reddit
I mean I get it; I just found it boring. I didn’t watch Xena to see the hero fight and her girlfriend / companion / side kick / wife (whatever title you prefer) doesn’t fight and also speaks against it. It created conflict in a not fun way, for me at least.
It was far more interesting to see Gabrielle fight along side Xena, and as her equal, which sadly doesn’t really start until season five.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I get it, you didn’t like the idea Gabrielle of not fighting after. She became a pacifist of non-violence and peace, at least not lending a hand to help out and Xena could do most of it.
But we wouldn’t get the epic scene of Gabrielle finally, breaking her own belief and decided to fight it off the enemy. In the Ides Of March after Xena can no longer fights, after her spine is broken and is paralyzed.
Gabrielle no choice and give up her belief of pacifist, she was screw it and decided to fight in order to save Xena from being killed at that moment.
FunCase8801@reddit
Fair point. That season four episode is epic, one of the best of the season and the series. I still remember the first time I saw that episode live and when Lucy (as Xena) falls on her knees after getting hit in the spine. And then Gabby just seeing red at that point. Ahh!! That still hurts when I watch it.
That may be the episode that inspired me to be better at watching Xena on a weekly basis rather than from time to time.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Exactly! Such an epic moment and scene in that episode, Xena fallen and out of action and Gabrielle has to be the hero and save her mate.
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
The India arc itself is 3/22 episodes
Latte-Catte@reddit
You right, it's 4/22 if you count the paradise lost ep. But it didn't make it less painful for me to chore thru.
FirefighterThink1556@reddit
I will not accept Paradise Found slander
JennaTheMaker@reddit
I like Paradise Found as it was an excellent episode.
Latte-Catte@reddit
😂 okay, I did like that episode
Firm_Introduction937@reddit
Paradise found is soooooo good
RedwoodFox71@reddit
The Indian arc wasn’t that bad and I quite like that arc, ad it was apart a Gabrielle journey to find answer for her trauma.
What she suffer in season three about her first kill and Hope, that she never quite recovered and heal from the pain ever since.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Exactly, I hated that the writers decided to make Eve. A version of her evil warlord killer mother Xena in her days, trying to be a conqueror and take over the country.
primal_slayer@reddit
I actually liked that part. Hated the pacifist Eve era.
I wanted a happy medium
jdpm1991@reddit (OP)
Do you think "Coming Home" was a good medium of both pacifist and warrior Eve?
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I don’t mind or have a problem with pacifist for Eve, I just feel like she didn’t earn to be that after all the things she done to others.
Just hate how the writers made her a version of her mother Xena was back in her evil world days.
I would have Eve being raised by Amazon tribes and become an Amazon warrior then, wanted to follow into her mother footstep of a warrior like her. Then she continue her mother journey and legacy in the end of the series.
Icy-Sir-8414@reddit
Because she was twice more blood thirsty and cold blooded than Xena or Callisto ever was
Ill_Try356@reddit
Hope really had no choice in her actions she was born from an evil god and was continually influenced by him. Eve chose to be a blood thirsty murder and yes you could say she was raised that way but still her choice. Furthermore she easily switch to good which shows she could have chose a better path to begin with.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I know right, it wasn’t her fault that. She was born and brought into the world. And was born that way and at the power of her father, that she probably couldn’t control as a baby just like as child Hope.
While Eve/Livia had every chance to learn from right and wrong, she also had to change to redeem before she convert back to Eve by the power of Eli. But didn’t.
JennaTheMaker@reddit
I agreed, it wasn’t Hope fault. That she was born that way, then she was later abandoned by her mommy.
Left in the world with no guidance and wonder what’s going to happen to her, sad that Hope never got a chance to be raised to be good and was forced to do her daddy’s work.
Agent8699@reddit
I think Xena’s hypocrisy is the biggest issue.
And how … one-dimensionally Livia / Eve was written.
I don’t mind Livia - she’s a product of her upbringing. I would have much preferred “Livia” to be more historically accurate - a ruthless, intellectual threat for Xena. How awesome if her daughter had ended up being the Empress of Rome and her enemy! And imagine if Xena and Gabrielle had together redeemed her over the course of the season and the series ended up with their daughter declaring Pax Romana - world peace!
Eve was a waste of a potentially interesting character. I thought she was written pretty well in Coming Home, but the rest of the season was … forgettable. And there were some awful appearances, like HOA, HoD and TGYK.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
I do agree that, Eve was a waste of a potential as I could see her. Taking over her mother legacy and journey for righteous at the end of the show, like a parent passing the torch to their child and continue their legacy.
But I think they ruins Eve by making her a 2.0 version of her mother Xena in her evil warlord days in the past as Livia and storyline as Livia, only last for two episode and then she get back into Eve again at the end of that episode by the magic and power of Eli and she gets a minor redemption and guilt.
The stuff she did as Livia then her character didn’t do to much in the show, as she was written off somewhere in season six and never been seen or heard again. Before the finale ended as I think the writers didn’t know? what to do with her as Eve after the Livia storyline was done.
As they just had her following and hanging around with her mom Xena and Gabrielle for a little a while, before she was written off as they didn’t bother to give her any development for her character before her departure.
If I could written Eve character for show, I would have Eve being raised by Amazon tribes or whatever. Having her become an Amazon Warrior then, she wanted to follow into her mother footstep of a warrior like her.
But for greater good of course like Xena started then Eve continue her mother, journey and legacy in the end of the series or something.
Jammed-Glock@reddit
I’ve actually seen more people arguing over who was more wrong (Xena or Gabrielle), that Xena was a hypocrite for wanting to defend Eve or that Eve got off too easy.
Personally I think (and the writers have also stated) that Hope was evil to begin with. They both committed horrible atrocities but Eve wasn’t born evil, she was groomed.
Reception_Familiar@reddit
I am a Xenite and I would never defend either.
angelholme@reddit
Fandoms are fucked up.
I mean no offence, but they have a REALLY warped sense of right and wrong, and of good and bad.
In Buff you get people wanting to set Angelus (not Angel but Angelus) on fire because he tried to kill Buffy, but these seem people will defend Spike to the death for attempting to rape her "because he loved her"
Me? I think Hope should have been strangled at birth, set on fire, then the ashes should have been set on fire and then they should have jumped up and down on the ashes shouting "how do you like that, you psychotic little bitch". Or -- you know -- something really mean and over the top. And I just don't get people who want to pick her up and hug her (although watching kill them would be hilarious -- no offence).
OrangeClyde@reddit
Remember child Hope’s straw broom bristles wig
flynnigan14@reddit
I like Hope as a character but I'd never defend her. She's good at being evil.
Darth_Twinge@reddit
Livia is just a bootleg version of Callisto. 🤣
ShardsOfSalt@reddit
What is there to defend with Eve? I don't see anyone saying negative things about Eve (aside from her character being annoying). She basically followed the same path as Xena but wound up a "pacifist" instead of a warrior. Choosing the way of Eli instead of the way of the warrior.
Hope on the other hand never had her redemption story. Xena is a story about redemption. Xena had redemption, Callisto had redemption, Ares had redemption, Autolycus had redemption. If anything the show was doing a complete about face by having Gabrielle's own daughter be irredeemably evil.
Jahon_Dony@reddit
I didn't know anybody liked or defended Hope. What's to defend? Wasn't she basically Satan-spawn? Trying to remember if she was even Dahaak's kid. Hope was just a body, a vessel, an instrument for evil - nothing more!
RedwoodFox71@reddit
So, that wasn’t her fault that she was born that way.
Eve/Livia was bad and terrible as she killed hundred or thousand innocent people’s for Rome. Including Varia little sister, she mercilessly murdered Varia sister in front of her. As she should know mercy or spare her little sister, same thing she did Joxer as showing her remorse when she was Livia.
Jahon_Dony@reddit
Like I said, never knew ANYBODY supported or even liked "Hope."
Didn't ask you to compare her to Eve. They aren't comparable.
IseQween@reddit
I couldn't connect with how these offspring got interjected into XWP. I don't defend (or frankly care much about) either, besides sympathizing with their unfortunate childhoods. For me, they mainly stimulate interesting discussion about nature vs. nurture, who deserves benefit of the doubt and second chances, present challenges to X&G's respective "codes" and differences, insights into why each might respond as she does.
Babies can cause incredible mischief because of curiosity, with no awareness of harmful consequences. Fortunately they don't have Hope's huge growth spurts and super-mortal strength -- e.g., to pull the trigger on most guns they might find or strangle someone with the medallion he gave her to play with. Who (besides Xena of course) can judge whether Hope's presumably first kill wasn't accidental? Who could determine in advance that proper nurturing wouldn't have a positive impact on the kid's dark side, despite the probable enormous, on-going battle against her evil daddy's blood and influence?
We see Eve as an adult, fully aware of and intentional about the incredible mischief she's causing. We learn she also grew up with little positive nurturing, "destined" to wield power by force. Except for miraculous divine intervention, she'd already shown her promise as a scourge of the earth. We don't know what choices she might have made if raised by Xena and Gabrielle, especially constantly exposed to violence if her nomadic mamas continued their fights against evils.
Badusername2000@reddit
im new, there are hope defenders? yall are weird
MidnightDisastrous84@reddit
We don’t defend hope. We just would’ve liked her to have been given the same chance to be raised with love as Eve. Maybe it would’ve changed her fate. Also hope only took Gabriel form when she was reborn. So if she would’ve grown up from a baby I don’t think that would’ve been what she looked like. Eve was protected, loved, forgiven for all her crimes. And her crimes was by far worse the everybody’s
midnightspellbinder@reddit
I disagree I think that hope would have looked exactly like Gabrielle even if she wasn't poisoned. I don't think that her being in an incubator made her look like gabriel. The incubator more so was trying to heal her from the damage inflicted to her body when Gabrielle had killed her.
MidnightDisastrous84@reddit
I’m pretty sure in the show Hope said she choice to look like Gabriel after her reborn.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
No it's not. She chose to masquerade as her though
MidnightDisastrous84@reddit
Go back and watch the episodes xena was looking for Gabrielle. And finds hope in her hometown.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
Lol I've seen that whole season😂😂😂
midnightspellbinder@reddit
Because hope was NEVER given a chance to do good. She was written off as evil from day 1! Completely abandoned to live in rags and filth on the streets. Livia was given the best Roman privileges in high society. She quite literally lived a life of luxury.Yet she turned out to be a woman who tortured people and drink their blood as they died. I feel livia is infinitely WORSE.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Exactly, Hope was robbed. Because Xena already accused her of killing the knight, when she returned and decided to kill her in front of Gabrielle as she slept.
Then expect Gabrielle understand why, then proceed to chase both Gaby and Hope. Until Gabrielle had no choice to protect her, by sending Hope away which she was abandoned and no guidance of knowing the difference right and wrong.
As she didn’t get a chance to be raised right by her mother
theking4mayor@reddit
Because hope was played by Renee O'Connor
Imnotawerewolf@reddit
If I had to guess, it's probably because Hope didn't really have many choices. She was a baby and then she wasn't and she was doing evil stuff. There wasn't much time for her to actually develop as a person and truly learn right from wrong or anything about the world.
Livia, however, did. And granted Xena wasnt there to teach her anything, but she had the time and opportunity to explore the world and learn right from wrong and she chose to do wrong. Just like we don't coddle adults who don't know how to do things they could easily Google.
I don't think either one is "better" or "worse" than the other. I think that they had different opportunities and chances in their lives. I think fact that Hope had less choices and opportunities to do things other than Dahak's will makes people more sympathetic towards her.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
The thing about Hope was born in the world, that I think she never been asked to be born in. As Gabrielle was violated and forced to have her, then she was abandoned by her mother. Because of Xena wanted to kill her, because she may have killed the knight with his necklace.
Meanwhile, with Eve/Livia becoming a vicious thirsty killer in the 25 jump skip. Even though I don’t think that’s not her fault either that, she was probably raised that way. But to me, she should know no motion of remorse or guilt for the people that she slaughtered as Livia.
And not only she kill Joxer in cold blood, but also she kill Varia little sister in cold blood as well. As I don’t know how anyone could defend Eve on that, after all the coronation chaos she had caused Livia.
midnightspellbinder@reddit
It's absolutely livias fault she decided to be a ravenous monster
BlueSonic85@reddit
I hadn't really noticed, but I feel it should be the other way around.
Hope was brought into existence in a traumatic way by an unquestionably evil force and evil creatures like the Banshees welcomed her. Eve was brought to existence by Eli's God and a redeemed Callisto.
Hope was a killer even as a baby. Eve wasn't.
Eve was brainwashed into being evil by Ares. There's no equivalent for Hope.
The God of Eli was able to redeem Eve. I don't think he could have done so with Hope.
Not saying that one can't defend Hope - the evil circumstances of her birth don't necessarily make her evil, killing the knight may have been an accident, Hope may have been pushed into evil by her abandonment issues, perhaps the God of Eli could have redeemed Hope too if anyone was in a position to ask. But I think Eve has fewer obstacles to overcome when it comes to defending her.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
While true, Hope kill some a hours after her birth.
But just because Eve didn’t kill anyone as a baby, doesn’t excuse what she did as an adult.
BlueSonic85@reddit
Yeah, that's fair. I wasn't making excuses for Eve so much as arguing she's slightly easier to defend than Hope.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
That’s okay, I’m not defending Hope and bashing Eve. I’m just trying to say that the difference between Hope and Eve.
Hope was forced to be born by her father, then she was later abandoned by her mother. Because of Xena wanted to kill her immediately, after a knight was founded and already accuse her of killing him.
As I’m also sick of some people trying to justify Eve, because she didn’t kill anyone as a baby which is not an excuse what she did as an adult.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
The thing about Hope was born in the world, that I think she never been asked to be born. As Gabrielle was violated and forced to have her, then she was abandoned by her mother. Because of Xena wanted to kill her, because she may have killed the knight with his necklace.
Meanwhile, with Eve/Livia becoming a vicious thirsty killer in the 25 jump skip. Even though that’s also not her fault either that she was probably raised that way, but to me she should know no motion of remorse or guilt for the people that she slaughtered and not only she kill in cold blood.
But also she kill Varia little sister in cold blood as well.
Valuable_Detail_4531@reddit
Because she has gabrielle’s face
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Obviously.
lostworld21@reddit
I can totally get why people wouldn't defend Livia, she killed a ton of people and straight up murdered Joxer and I still have a hard time accepting that myself... but I don't think I can ever join the sympathy for Hope camp. I'm still kind of in shock that that's even a thing after reading that thread lol She's more fun and campy for sure, and associated to a more compelling storyline while looking like Gabrielle... but I'll always view Hope as a soulless inherently evil creature and vessel born of demonic blood sacrifice who cocooned and hatched to bring the six Destroyers into the world who would "eat of the living and the righteous." I don't view her, her father or her spawn as being capable of redemption.
Goldar85@reddit
I don’t defend Hope. I have empathy for her. Dahak was literal evil incarnate. No matter how good Gabrielle was, half of Hope was a literal evil monster. Her child with Ares was a literal monster. Hope absolutely could not escape who she was or her destiny. She murdered within hours of her birth. Her sole existence was to help usher Dahak into the world and implement his new world order. Hope did desire to be loved, as did the Destroyer. That’s something we can all have sympathy for. She didn’t choose to be born nor did she choose to be evil. She is a victim of Dahak as well. But killing her and the Destoyer absolutely was the right call.
MorningPapers@reddit
I haven't seen people defending either Hope or Eve.
To me, these stories are distractions from the fun of the protagonists bringing justice to the world.