Ukrainian Forces using Turkish made shotguns. Safari HG-105M and Hasan Escort BTS 12

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HamsterOnLegs@reddit

The first image makes me want a version with the barrel extending no further than the hand guard.

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HamsterOnLegs@reddit

I love it.

Can we get the barrel tip to be flush with the hand guard (danger intensifies)

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The_First_Curse_@reddit

That would look so cool but kick like crazy.

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

Your right the bull pups especially kick like a mule even with a long barrel.

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Present_Friend_6467@reddit

I’ve always wondered, what’s up with the Turks making really shitty bullpup shotguns? Do they churn them out just to make a profit or what?

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No one else bothered to do it, except Kel-Tec's double magazine boat anchor that is impossible to get (and similar UTS 15, but I checked and guess what, it's Turkish). You can reap the profit too if you want.

It's similar to Saiga. You could ask the same question, why tf was Izhevsk the first and the only manufacturer to make a practical mag-fed race shotgun for so long.

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

Tbf the Soviet Union/Russia has a large shotgun market so it was a matter of time that an AK pattern shotgun would be made.

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AyeBraine@reddit

I think it's a topic for discussion, at least.

Sure USSR only had shotguns available for free purchase, BUT gun culture was literally non-existent, nobody was interested in guns, period. You had a shotgun, you were some kind of hunter (in a country of large urban centers) or an old person. Post-Soviet times, some people were glad to finally get their hands on interesting guns, but there were very little interesting guns in store (for reasonable money). Russian gun manufacturers went through a horrific period where everything they new wasn't true anymore (like every single enterprise in Russia). Then they tried to adapt, poorly.

Most gun production centers didn't cut it (mostly survived on subsidies), Izhevsk had a brand on their side and it finally got something out, very slowly. But there was no wide market for Saiga 12 when it was first released. Meaning, sure there was a small number of hunters (who don't need a huge heavy semi-auto and were all ultra-FUDD), and there was a number of private security firms who eagerly bought the Saiga-410K (and for the next decades kept selling them off for pennies)... But by the time Saiga-12 came out, no one could predict if it would go this well. It was rather a way to further milk the "civilian legal, but vaguely looks like an AK" opportunity I think. It's not a hunting shotgun by any stretch.

Then the IPSC got its legs in Russia and foreign athletes caught wind of the Saiga 12. Although it had all kinds of problems early on I think. But it was newly appreciated in sporting terms. Then Vepr 12 appeared (as part of the then hopeful renaissance of the Molot Factory...).

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

You’re correct for the most part. However in the Soviet Union shotgun ownership was very prevalent, only factor that would bar you from owning one was if you weren’t a party member

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AyeBraine@reddit

That is incredibly weird and incorrect info.

A relatively small proportion of citizens were ever members of the KPSU, never more than 10% of the population (and much less pre-war). In the late USSR, it was not exactly rare, but uncommon enough that people stressed that so-and-so was a party member.

It was not open like modern parties, either. You had to apply and have lots of approvals, and was subject to reviews if your behaviour was not to par. It was basically something like an exclusive membership for people who are socially active enough or ambitious enough to aspire to be community leaders or managers (at a workplace or as administrators). Most people either didn't bother, or would not have been approved anyway (less than stellar recommendations or disqualifying criteria). And certainly most regular hunters weren't party members.

You are correct that shotguns were sold to hunters in stores (you needed to be a hunter, though, and have a hunter's ID, given by the local hunting society). But gun ownership overall was not very prevalent at all. Sure, out in the country, having a shotgun in the house was common, but the USSR was a very urbanized country, and it would be a bizzare thing to have a gun in your apartment, unless you're an avid hunter.

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PassivelyInvisible@reddit

I have no idea. They've also made a lot of cheap pump and semi shotguns too

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CyberSoldat21@reddit

All of their shotguns are pretty poor

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

Because of regulations in Turkey its easier to manufacture shotguns compared to handguns, and yea its the mindset of quantity vs quality.

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TresCeroOdio@reddit

I can’t wait for people to post their “clone correct” turkshit shotguns in a few years time.

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

I unironically want to get my hands on one just to see them how they are in person

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

Check tfbv they did a test and you'll see what the civilian ones are like😂 hope they did proper qc for the military ones.

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

I saw it James revees video on it, I personally would like it break it down and take a in depth look on why they are so crap sometimes

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

It's generally poor qc like burrs and parts being left in a rough state from all the turk guns I've taken down the ones that work well all have had there parts properly machined and polished had plenty in the shop you could sand wood with they so rough.

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Petrus_Rock@reddit

Considering the vast variety weapon platforms I wouldn’t want to be head of logistics in Ukraine. That’s gotta be madness.

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DerringerOfficial@reddit

The problem is probably even worse than you think:

Ukraine has been sent at least 17 different kinds of howitzers, not all of which use the same type of shell

Source, New York Times

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Petrus_Rock@reddit

I doubt it’s worse than I think. You talk about ammunition. A single weapon only needs the single type of ammunition it is chambered for which can also be used by other weapons chambered for that same ammo. But that single weapon also needs multiple replacement parts which only work with that weapon. I’m amazed they can still put up a fight. To be quite frank, I wouldn’t be surprised if their logistics are a bigger problem than the enemy.

Considering how they are doing despite their logistics, can you image how badly they’d be kicking ass if they had only one or two weapon platforms per role (like most nato countries)?

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SadeceOluler_@reddit

i wouldnt go with hatsan. there is ton of good manufacturers with cheap product like derya, akdas, armsan, crossfire, daglıoglu(well saiga copys), ermox, huglu,

these are not big manufacturers but small orders from few companys would be greater

and who is safari?

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

Derya and ermox aren't great either we stock the but have had a ton of bring backs. In general don't buy a Turkish shotgun regardless of the price many expensive ones break just like the cheap stuff.

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SadeceOluler_@reddit

well in turkey we dont have choice

turkish manufacturers are fine their products have little gimmicks like rifles works properly when you spend few box on it but they are give good after market support

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

Well we do have a choice and we don't recommend your stuff it's not a quirk to break after 200-500 rounds. Even norinco shotguns we get here are far better put 5k rounds though our range gun with no issue.

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SadeceOluler_@reddit

there is a bunch of american manufacturers i would go with them

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

O dear god I hope they have their wills in order those things are going to jam like hell. Would of been better if they got cheap o/u or maverick 88s with long barrels. Got an sxp winchester and hate it with a passion.

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TresCeroOdio@reddit

I’ve surprisingly had zero issues with my SXP. Very impressed considering it’s turkshit

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

You're lucky 3 of purchased them and none of them work properly especially with 3 inch and S&B ammo I would recommend the mav 88 over the sxp anyday

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TresCeroOdio@reddit

I’m glad I got lucky! I’ve ran a lot of 3 inch through mine without issue

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

I tossed it back to the dealer and got a mosberg 590 and its had over 2k rounds through it now without a single failure my sxp failed ever magzine tube.

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TresCeroOdio@reddit

Mossbergs are tried and true!

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

Unfortunately not common here only the 5 round mav 88 are available year round in sa but I got my 590 from a small shipment 2 years ago.

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

I saw some footage of them being used and they worked surprisingly fine

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

Some work fine like here in the gun shop I work in 70% work fine but 30% will break within a week of people receiving it. Would never recommend Turkish shotguns to anyone. Only turkish shotgun I've seen work well is the tokerov hammer and stoeger p3000s.

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Horilka@reddit

All Chinese phones are garbage, even IPhones

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lavavaba90@reddit

There perfectly fine unless your gonna burn one down by rapidly shooting 500 rounds thru it.

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Affectionate-Meet192@reddit

The bull pup I used to sell at the shop couldn't even take 200 in total ie over a month. let alone anything else. With low power ipsc buck.

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elchsaaft@reddit

We need to get them some Berettas or benellis.

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DerringerOfficial@reddit

I think most governments who haven’t turned their back on the free world are more worried about higher priorities like air defense and deep-strike munitions. But yeah, giving the Ukrainians better shotguns would be nice, too

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VermelhoRojo@reddit

I’d like to know how these are holding up.

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rulepanic@reddit

It seems like there's an absolute ton of these in Ukraine, they pop up in pictures all the time, so presumably well enough they keep procuring them to counter drones.

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DerringerOfficial@reddit

Just curious, where do you go for pics of equipment on the frontline?

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DeathkillerNo_10@reddit (OP)

From what I can gather it’s kinda mixed. For the Hatsan shotguns they reportedly had a batch of 400-500 sent to the Armed forces according to the company and there’s some rumors that these had slightly better QC than most (although I can’t confirm how true this is). Some of the shotguns go through a bit of an overall for internal parts for reliability when received to make sure they run reliably. They’re appreciated for how compact and somewhat light the system is but overall it’s kinda gimmicky and are rarely used.

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