Should shoplifters get PCNs?

Posted by Cakeyhands@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 49 comments

Don't you find it annoying that if you fail to pay the £2.50 dart charge within 24 hours you owe the government £35. And if you accidentally drive in a clean air zone, you owe the government £120 if you forget to pay on time, which becomes £240 then a visit from baliffs if you ignore it. But if you rob from a business, i.e. you are an actual criminal who is performing crime with intent, notoriously, police won't even turn up, and if they do, you're probably going to get a warning because it's not worth their time. Businesses can submit clear CCTV evidence to the police and it usually won't lead to anything. Why do good people who make small human errors get punished more harshly than actual criminals? Wouldn't policing pay for itself if there was a fixed penalty for shoplifting of any value? say, of like £120, plus the value of the item you stole if not returned? Doubled to £240 if you don't pay after a month. I know there are loads of kinks with this idea - such as homeless people shoplifting who realistically can't pay. People on the dole - well it will be docked from next months dole payments. Laws are never simple and guidelines could be carefully mulled over and created to cover a multitude of scenarios. But for the majority, if they shoplift and there is clear evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, they would get a fine which will pay for police / legal staff time. And if they don't pay, baliffs will e.g. take their TV (oh, you can afford an HD TV, yet are too poor to buy food?). I know a lot of people will say poverty is the problem - but I flat out reject that shoplifting is ever an okay answer. There are legal ways of staying afloat such as food banks and being in contact with social services. And lets face it, not everyone who shoplifts and is on the dole is actually trying to find work. Anyway, enjoy roasting this reasonable idea.

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49 Comments

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Dailymailflagshagger@reddit

Shoplifters should be prostituted

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geeered@reddit

Just require all shoppers to wear a numberplate front and back and your idea is perfect... until people realise they can clone the plates, anyway. A more sensible way that a lot of people would still be up in arms about would be to require you to scan a bank card or similar before entering like you do with an amazon account with one of their grocery shops. That could pre-authourise a set amount, which is removed from their card. Of course, then they might just go and steal someone's card first!

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ItsDominare@reddit

what if I told you that people who are shoplifting typically don't have any money?

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FizzyLiz@reddit

I think the type of people that shoplift just simply wouldn't pay the fines. They live in an adjacent world where they shoplift and probably don't pay anything else in their lives and nothing really happens, it just stacks up. They can get put away for a few months for shoplifting but they just come out and carry on again. And if you don't know their names or any details about them then you can't enforce anything. I work in retail and see it daily. I'm not going to start a rant about shoplifters, I could go on all day 😝

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MargotChanning@reddit

Fellow retail worker here. We have loads of regular shoplifters who are constantly in and out of court for not turning up to rehab, community service etc. The only plus side is that they end up wanted again and if we’re lucky, get locked up for the weekend. I’ve learned the hard way that they don’t live by the same rules or codes that us regular people do. Aside from the organised gangs, it’s always drugs. I wish I knew the answer to stopping this but I don’t.

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FizzyLiz@reddit

Yes drugs and also maybe it's just where I live but there's a certain group of people in this country that live outside of the rules. They are a massive problem for us and incredibly aggressive and threatening and the police don't touch them 🤷🏻‍♀️

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Difficult_Egg_4350@reddit

Even with the organised gangs, it's ultimately drugs. But yeah this is the bit people don't realise. Pretty much all acquisitive crime (shoplifting, theft, burglary, muggings) is drug related. Majority of more serious crimes like murder are too. So the people involved aren't going to be disincentivised by a fine or even a prison sentence because their behaviour is driven by addiction.

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butwhatsmyname@reddit

Aye, on top of cars are registered and traceable, there's also a piece here about the fact that: A) People who have a car are likely in a good enough financial situation to be able to afford a car - and therefore can afford to pay fines. B) If a person has a car and incurs fines because of their driving, that's leverage. There's a threat of losing the privilege of driving if it gets bad enough, which is likely to be a deterrent for most people. C) People who shoplift are either too broke to pay, or living a life of habitual criminality and are very unlikely to have any significant, traceable income. It's almost impossible to properly ban/keep someone out of even one specific supermarket, and you can't ban a person from entering _all_ shops. So there's no leverage there. If someone is making their living from nicking steaks and flogging them down the pub then there's no point trying to slap them with ever-larger fines because they just won't pay them. And properly pursuing them legally and putting them in prison costs a lot of money - not just in paying for the cost of them being in prison, but also all the legal fees etc. etc. And there's no leverage there either - if going to prison for a few months was a serious threat to someone in terms of their future career prospects and life plans... I wouldn't expect them to be casually robbing Tesco on a weekly basis. I suspect you have to be living a pretty chaotic and dysfunctional life already to be selling off your stolen haul from Superdrug for cash on the regular. So I don't really know what the solution is. The people doing this shit aren't deterred by the punishment for doing it, and the punishment (and the pursuit of it) costs a huge amount of time and money for something which makes no difference. I guess the only real solution is to find out exactly why they are doing it and then figure out how to fix that, but that's... well, that's a whole big, messy, generational, systemic can of worms. Helping criminals sort their shit out when there are thousands of law abiding people out there waiting patiently for access to the same help and services - when there's a good chance that the criminals may not want/be able to engage with that's offered... yeah. From the point of view of the government, it's probably less difficult to just keep letting 5% of the population commit half the crime and take up 75% of the capacity of the police and justice service with their antics. Solving generational poverty, antisocial behaviour, and criminal habits is expensive, slow, time consuming, and doesn't make good tabloid headlines.

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shashastar@reddit

This is a really great and thoughtful answer! I do think though, that there are people who are not in dire financial straits who have just gotten into the habit of shoplifting. It almost feels like there has been a psychological shift in society. I know everything gets blamed on covid, but it does feel like the lockdowns + finding out politicians were flouting the rules + all the money stolen or wasted via dodgy government contracts has caused many people to give up on giving a fuck. And the fact that supermarkets continue to raise their prices, reduce quality and pay out massive profits to their shareholders each year. But it's not always the people or shops you would expect (supermarkets). I recently saw a woman, with an armful of shopping bags, stealing premium hair care products from an independent "mom & pop" shop. She had quite clearly already been shopping for clothes and just felt entitled to some non-essential grooming products on her way home. What's her excuse? Maybe it's social media that's got folks addicted to having products? The constant videos of wealthy influencers flaunting and shilling stuff they got for free has broken some of our brains. If life feels unfair and there doesn't seem to be legitimate way to redress the balance then shoplifting will do? Anyway...this has gone way off topic but it's something that I think about a lot so I appreciate your response!

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TomMarvoloRiddel@reddit

Crap… this post just reminded me that I crossed the Mersey gateway bridge a couple of weeks ago and didn’t go online to pay the toll.. am on holiday now, so that’ll be a £50 fine waiting on my doormat when I get home. Gutted.

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BppnfvbanyOnxre@reddit

Given fining them etc. doesn't work and that putting them in gaol doesn't either I have no idea what the real answer is we're certainly not going back to the medieval times with branding and ear [lopping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cropping_(punishment)), or follow the gulf states and amputate limbs.

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Glittering-Round7082@reddit

There is already a penalty notice for disorder for shoplifting. If police forces got to keep that money then Police would enforce shoplifting again.

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JuatARandomDIYer@reddit

The major difference is that cars are registered to a person, and the registered owner must be law say who was driving. People don't have registration numbers, and criminal offences have a burden of proof. If the police know the shoplifter then they'll generally get dealt with

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OldManChino@reddit

So what you are saying is we need to give people registration numbers? /S

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KeysUK@reddit

You must scan your QR code before entering a shop, what contains all your details.

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Appropriate_Dig_252@reddit

People will just slide on right up to someone as they're about to go through and slip through on their data instead. People already do this for the gates at trains (personally seen lots in Brussels and London).

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wasdice@reddit

Can I be BE11 3ND?

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GlitchingGecko@reddit

You already are mate.

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Quick_Creme_6515@reddit

The government cares about profit. They can easily fine average Joe because a) we have something to lose. We care about our credit and don't want to go to prison. b) we can "afford it." Even if we can't, we'll find a way to pay, or they'll take assets.. We're easy, controllable targets. People who shoplift generally don't give a flying fuck and they have no assets to go after. Chasing them costs money, money that won't be recovered.

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Opening_Cut_6379@reddit

...you go into their houses and confiscate their enormous TVs and latest iPhones. Believe me the only people I know who have these are "poor" people

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jake_burger@reddit

What time period are you living in where enormous TVs and iPhones are expensive? This is tabloid journalism from the 90s/00s. You can get a tv and a phone for a few hundred pounds and it wouldn’t even cover the bailiffs call out charge to seize and sell them on, let alone clear whatever fine or court debt there is. If it’s “the latest iPhone” it will be on finance, no one is dropping £1k cash on a phone.

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llamaz314@reddit

Exactly. Being dead broke makes you immune to pretty much all civil legal action. For example I know people who have written off cars while driving without insurance. But, because they're 18 with no job or assets what are you going to be able to do?

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fussdesigner@reddit

> Businesses can submit clear CCTV evidence to the police and it usually won't lead to anything. Unless the person in the CCTV is wearing a t-shirt with their name and address on it then this isn't remedied by the PCN idea. If they can't be ID'd to be taken to court then they also can't be ID'd to be given a fine. You're also overestimating how often businesses are giving CCTV to police. Particularly if it's a supermarket or a chain store it will almost never be reported to police - they just deal with it themselves with their own banning orders and security. > I know there are loads of kinks with this idea - such as homeless people shoplifting who realistically can't pay. People on the dole - well it will be docked from next months dole payments. These aren't two niche little groups that you've thought of. People who (at least on paper) have no money or assets make up 99% of shoplifters. If you accept that it is in effective against these people then the plan falls completely flat. Benefit payments are already so low that any deduction is either going to have to be pennies per week, and therefore more bother than it's worth, or such a sizeable chunk that it will only serve to incentivise more theft. > oh, you can afford an HD TV, yet are too poor to buy food? Food tends to be a daily requirement for most humans. New TVs are not. It's perfectly possible to own a TV while not being able to afford to buy food.

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lil_chunk27@reddit

also it's 2025, basically all TVs are HD or higher... people aren't out hunting for like CRT TVs because they're poor. Plus, you can buy TVs in installments. Can't get your weekly shop like that.

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jamesckelsall@reddit

You can also get HD TVs second-hand for very little, sometimes even free. You can't generally buy food second-hand.

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Obvious-Water569@reddit

I may not be keeping up on recent events but I don't think people are required to have registration plates.

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One-Cardiologist-462@reddit

It's because a shop theft. or burglary generally doesn't cost the government any money. If the roles were reversed and people broke into the houses of parliament, cop shops, Sadik Kahns house, or any other organized criminal gang/government/cartel affiliate then it would soon get dealt with. In the rare event a shoplifter actually *is* caught, then they usually face a fine... Which is *more* money straight to the government - Not the victim of the theft.

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fussdesigner@reddit

Most crime doesn't cost the government any money. If I went into a hospital and shot a child cancer patient in the head then I'd save the government an absolute fortune. Are you suggesting the authorities wouldn't bother to do anything about that?

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Legitimate_Finger_69@reddit

It costs the money in terms of lost economic growth. Shrinkage is a cost to business, makes opening a new business unattractive. 1% fewer retailers by value, £1bn lost, 27,000 fewer jobs.

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TheAnonymousNote@reddit

This doesn’t solve the problem at all. For reference, I’m a Police Officer. Supermarkets and chain stores are generally quite good at providing us with CCTV on my patch. Independent shops tend to be the opposite and often don’t bother reporting incidents anyway. Chances are we’ll be able to identify the person shoplifting from supermarkets/chains because it’s always the same handful of individuals in our area. So they get arrested once we manage to track them down, by which point they could well have 30 outstanding theft from shop reports. They get dealt with and charged/remanded for probably all but one or two of the offences (due to evidential difficulties). They then go to court, where they plead guilty. They make the argument that they’re a drug user and would have to steal more to pay a large fine, so they get a reduced one. They also get given a drug and alcohol treatment order. The same day they’re out stealing again, and so the cycle continues. The fine, is paid at all, will probably be paid at £1/month, so it’ll never be repaid. So you see you’re not changing anything. They’re already being fined, it’s just not effective for someone whose only source of income is stealing and benefits. And for offenders we can’t ID… well you can’t issue a PCN to an unknown person.

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Euphoric-Brother-669@reddit

Shooting fish in the barrel. The motorist is an easy target. ANPR, digitally read the number plate, computer look up of registered owner, send letter to queue, run a mailing of ‘offenders’ no human involvement whatsoever except when the letter lands. The shoplifter is harder, they have to turn up, review evidence, take statements, you know, do some actual WORK and put in some EFFORT. So we enforce the easy, ignore the more difficult and pretend we dont have two tier justice

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Reasonable-Delay4740@reddit

This lawlessness I keep hearing about in the uk is the kind of thing that historically inspired parallel governance to do the jobs that government aren’t anymore; vigilante groups etc. Not good.

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specificspoon8@reddit

I work in Court - shoplifters are instructed to pay the business the money value of what they stole, they are also fined if it can be attached to benefits or they have a job, you have mentioned that you know this though. Bailiffs are instructed to recover costs if fines are not paid. I think you are potentially underestimating how little people have when they shoplift. It really is the exception that people are shoplifting if they don’t have to and have kleptomania or something. Even if to fund addiction it is because they have no money to fund it so I can’t see where a PCN would make any material difference. Policing shouldn’t pay for itself, the government should be funding it appropriately, as well as other horrifically underfunded services that might actually make a difference socially.

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JJY199@reddit

It all boils down to an assessment of how much the culprit has to lose and how difficult they are to prosecute To catch a shoplifter the store needs to literally catch them in the act and then hold them at the store until the police arrive (if they arrive) Then it has to go to court…. Its a huge administrative & cost burden on the system which is why its generally seen as a misdemeanour Drivers are easy to catch with ANPR and fines are usually automatically issued the driver will usually pay to avoid any further hassle welcome to the game called society

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oncejumpedoutatrain@reddit

Typical drivel thinking, only what you see exists, if the worlds resources were evenly spread, there wouldn't be a need for this behaviour

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Legitimate_Finger_69@reddit

Most of the "fixed penalties" you discuss are decriminalised offences. Most shoplifters are prolific and run it as a business, e.g. steal £100 of steak for £0, sell it for £50, £50 profit. Prosecutions are a cost of business. As soon as you make that cost of business more predictable shoplifting spirals. It's a terrible idea. Penalties for shoplifting should be much higher because they're only caught 1%-ish of the time so you need a high deterrent effect to fuck up their "I can repeatedly steal stuff, sell it and usually not get caught" business plan.

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LuDdErS68@reddit

Because the driving related examples you give (and we'll add speeding) can be dealt with automatically, by cameras. That means that they're incredibly cheap to process initially and most people will just pay. Actual police work, using human officers, is expensive.

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iamdefinitelynotdave@reddit

They know motorists must have at least some money. You rely on your vehicle, and they know where you live. Easy targets.

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Emergency_Mistake_44@reddit

For those saying CCTV and facial recognition isn't good enough. I've been caught shoplifting many, many years ago.when I was stupid(er?) Not proud of it and haven't since. When called back to the station for fingerprints and statements etc, I was presented with pretty much the highest quality images clearly showing me and acquaintances doing the deed. I don't want to answer any questions about details for privacy but trust me - they can prove it was you and it's in your best interest to accept it. For the record, I received a warning and a fine of the cost of goods plus a small admin sort of fee. Sorry for the vagueness in parts. Tldr, the PCN system could work if they really wanted it to. For them though it probably just isn't worth the time and hassle .

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Kitchen_Owl_8518@reddit

Civil recovery is a thing and is enforced by Supermarkets. Or at least it was a thing when it was my problem a decade ago. On Average when we dealt it with it this way rather than calling the police it would cost the offender £240 - The cost was based on a value of my time the security guards time per hour plus other costs. It would often go as far as debt collectors and quite a high success rate of collection as well.

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llamaz314@reddit

The CCTV can't tell who it was or anything about them really. Facial recognition isn't very good and certainly wouldn't hold up in court. If we made people tape their name and address on a big sign on their back at all times maybe? There's no way to get a picture of someone and know beyond all doubt it was them. If your car is caught in the congestion charge or bus lane there's no doubt that's your car

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Carrente@reddit

I don't find it annoying to get PCNs for things like that because I don't do them, it's really quite easy actually

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72dk72@reddit

Bring back stocks and put shoplifters in them... for maximum humiliation, strip them naked first.

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Projected2009@reddit

Government doesn't care about anything other than itself. If the Government opened a chain of shops, shoplifters in those shops (only) would go to prison.

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LNGBandit77@reddit

It would just become a cost of doing “business” for them. They would just steal more to cover the costs

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Tim-Sanchez@reddit

Criminals caught shoplifting are often already fined. Changing it to a PCN won't really change much. Both the PCNs you mention are enforced strictly because enforcement is basically automated, whereas shoplifting could never be automated.

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Questjon@reddit

[Something like this?] (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmbills/074/09074.i-i.html)

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Dapper-Dependent8992@reddit

Yes, But I imagine most would appeal against any fine on the grounds they wouldn't be able to pay due to a lack of funds. Much like during Covid, the fines for 'illegal' gatherings could be cancelled if you said either A. You couldn' afford it or B. It would negatively impact your mental health.

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