Do Americans view middle eastern people (Turks, Arabs, Persians) as "white"?
Posted by Resident-Diver469@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 449 comments
(I don't know what to flair this as)
But there is no separate category for middle eastern people, so often times, they will identify as "white"
Gullible-Mass-48@reddit
No
Padron1964Lover@reddit
Nope
BigHatPat@reddit
they’d consider them white until they hear a middle eastern-sounding name, then they stop being white
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
Not at all. Middle Easterners are "brown" in America, even though some look White.
Yama_retired2024@reddit
There was a news article a couple years ago.. you can look it up..
A man's family from Egypt emigrated to America when he was 4trs old.. they became citizens, when the young guy grew up, when he applied for the Chicago Police Department.. on his application he put... "Caucasian"
20 years later with the police, he isn't getting promoted, POC are getting promoted ahead of him, some with less time, some with bad records too.. because of DEI.. so he went to change his file from... Caucasian to African American.. they told him he can't do that... Now they have an issue.. because he is literally an African American..
ContributionLatter32@reddit
I'm an American living in Bulgaria fairly close to the Turkish border. Bulgarians are definently what we (Americans) would considered white- often times the Turks don't really look any different than the Bulgarians (but don't tell the Bulgarians I said that lmao)
SueNYC1966@reddit
My husband is a Balkan Jew and he is whiter than I am (I am mostly of Northern European descent). Many of his relatives (most are descended from Monastir (now Bitola) Jews) have light eyes (blues and greens).
Confident-Fun-2592@reddit
I always thought it was because the Middle East and parts of Europe basically overlap with each other. I mean plenty of people from west Asia don’t look that distinguishable from some Europeans.
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
Bulgarians aren't Middle Eastern so I don't know what that has to do with it. As for Turks, the reason they sometimes look White is because they took a lot of European slaves during the Ottoman empire.
drdr14@reddit
Turks are one of the most diverse ethnic groups in the world, they vary from looking Northern European to Pakistani, so it’s a bit dumb to even describe a Turkish look
drdr14@reddit
Na maikata putkata, umri :)
nasa258e@reddit
Turkey is multi ethnic. It's gonna depend on the Turk
coatingtonburlfactry@reddit
Yeah, I've met plenty of Turks from the Black Sea region that are blonde with blue/green eyes.
GlassCommercial7105@reddit
There is a huge Turkish minority in Bulgaria though. Native Bulgarians and Turks are a different ethnicity and look different too. They often also don’t mix and if you ask them, they will often tell you that they are Turkish and speak only Turkish even if they have never been to Turkey in their life.
mcmlxxivxxiii@reddit
🇧🇬 на три морета
Red_Phoenix_Vikingr@reddit
Being a white passing, second gen Middle Eastern American, 9/11 changed the game.
Before we were lumped in with "White/Caucasian" but after we were definitely the "Other" category now.
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
I didn't know anybody who thought of Middle Easterners as White before 9-11.
Maxwells_Demona@reddit
Agreed. I'm a millenial. 9/11 happened when I was in 9th grade, so I remember plenty before it. Neither I nor anyone I knew thought of middle easterners as white. And I grew up in Utah, where nearly every house had the white Mormon Jesus picture hanging in it.
...which in retrospect maybe played a role in it? There was already a thriving "white Jesus makes no sense" debate in place that Mormons had to defend against with their "but this painting was divinely inspired so it has to be correct" logic. The very existence of this debate hinges on Arabs as a generality not being thought of as white. Even for fair-skinned ones.
SueNYC1966@reddit
We had a few Lebanese in our school that showed up during a war. One was blonde, green eyes and rocked a nice golden tan after summer break. He looked pretty white to us.
I married a MENA Jew. He is whiter than I am but after 9/11 - he got the same secondary inspections other people rocking an ambiguous Middle Eastern sounding surname like his would get.
But if you sad him on the street you would think white guy who looks sort of Italian or Jewish.
majinspy@reddit
I'm from Mississippi and my neighbors were of Lebanese descent. They had darker skin and a Lebanese last name. They were "white" to us. Mississippi has a racism problem but race is almost 1:1 tied to colorism and/or anti-Black. There's just not enough of any other group around to have negative stereotypes develop.
Nouseriously@reddit
We joke that we're Lebanese until we get within a mile of an airport, then we become entirely French
kung-fu_hippy@reddit
My Jordanian friends like to joke that the only reason the American census says that they’re white is because otherwise America would have to admit that Jesus wasn’t.
SueNYC1966@reddit
No, they asked for it themselves in Court because they didn’t want to fall under the Asian Exclusion Act.
moopsie3000@reddit
That’s not a joke, a Lebanese man and a Syrian man petitioned the government in 1909 using specifically that argument, so that they could become naturalized citizens. At the time only white people could do so.
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
Armenians did the same thing. These groups were able to get classified as White only because some look White and they were Christians. However, the American public always saw them as racial aliens
bonzai113@reddit
Many years ago I dated a Lebanese woman. she was very fair skinned with red hair and blue eyes. she always said that her ancestors were french and irish.
2FistsInMyBHole@reddit
Brown is mostly a new concept pushed by people that didn't want to be lumped in with white people.
A lot of us grew up with Middle Easterners, South Asians and Latin Americans being white.
-GenghisJohn-@reddit
South Asians?
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
The idea of Brown peoples has been around since the 70s at least. It makes sense that they don't want to be included with Whites since they're not White.
FinsFan305@reddit
I think OP means race which means they would be considered white.
ophmaster_reed@reddit
Remember that even the irish were at one point considered not "white" at one point. It obviously was nothing to do with skin color.
goldentriever@reddit
Same with Italians
Mitch_Darklighter@reddit
Yup and the Greeks too. Greektown in Omaha was burned during a race riot in 1909. The entire population of 3000 was forcibly displaced.
Mitch_Darklighter@reddit
White is a social club, the admission to which is entirely dependent on the percentage of Americans who are not white. Too many Chinese coming in? That's ok, the Irish are white now. Black people can vote? Italians and other swarthy Catholics get to be white now. More and more Hispanics are emigrating? Guess Greeks and Slavs are in. It's all smoke and mirrors so they can continue to say everyone else is a "minority" when, in fact, the traditional White Protestant now only makes up a 30% minority in America. They've just weaponized other formerly-marginalized people into fighting for them by letting them into the club.
WulfTheSaxon@reddit
Ben Franklin, somehow:
LoyalKopite@reddit
Whiteness in west is based on wealth Irish and Italy were poor countries so considered black until WW2. They became rich thanks to Marshall plan do became white.
Careful-Mouse-7429@reddit
I think the person you are responding to was also meaning race.
I don't think many people in my area would consider them white
DCChilling610@reddit
No they’re considered brown unless they can pass which most can’t
maxintosh1@reddit
No we'd say they're "Middle Eastern"
Physical_Floor_8006@reddit
Nobody where I'm from would consider them white in any sense. They'd sooner consider them black, but would probably just say middle eastern is its own thing
tmahfan117@reddit
Maybe by the way the census is set up, but Arabs are not white, their brown, many a MAGA will tell you so.
Dopey_Dragon@reddit
Yeah but maybe it's my area but I don't know anyone in my area that thinks middle eastern people are white.
cookie123445677@reddit
I would disagree. I consider them white
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
You're a small minority.
SummertimeThrowaway2@reddit
Yea the categories (culturally speaking, not legally) are:
White
Brown (dark skin but not hispanic or african, although North Africans are seen as arab which is brown)
Hispanic (sometimes put in the brown category, but due to the proximity to Mexico, there are so many Hispanics that they get their own category). However in the eyes of the government, Hispanics are white.
Asian (mostly East Asian. South Asians are seen as brown)
Black (African except north Africa again)
63628264836@reddit
I think that’s generally true, though there are many Turks, Lebanese and a few other areas that have some very “White” people not just in complexion, but in features somewhat as well.
TheRealCrustycabs@reddit
I don't view them as anything other than people.
hulks_brother@reddit
Where I grew up, anyone with brown eyes was not white.
holiestcannoly@reddit
No, they are viewed as Middle Eastern. “White” usually refers to people of European descebt
charlottebythedoor@reddit
I think this just goes to show how arbitrary the system is. Because even “Europe” is an arbitrary demarcation. Eurasia is all the same landmass. People like to say the border is the Ural Mountains, but bffr. What continent does that put Russia in? Or Turkey? If an American saw a Muslim woman from the Caucasus (so, a Caucasian woman) wearing a hijab, would they assume she was white?
To be clear, I’m not trying to pick on you or your comment. I just think it’s a really good illustration of how arbitrary and weird (or a number of other adjectives) the idea of race really is.
Swurphey@reddit
Russia, Turkey, usually Khazakhstan and arguably the Caucuses are all transcontinental countries, what's hard about that? Caucasian also hasn't meant from the Caucasus in this context for generations, there are dozens of different ethnic groups in the Caucuses, and Muslim isnt a race. It depends on the group but they'd almost definitely be considered ambiguously brown if not solidly Middle Eastern, with some individuals possibly passing as White
charlottebythedoor@reddit
I know Muslim isn’t a race. But that’s my point. Race is so arbitrary that things not related to race affect how race is perceived.
No-Independence548@reddit
Jewish gets wrongly classified as a race pretty often too here
rickeykakashi@reddit
Americans do not see Khabib type folk as “white”, but we see him as a white Muslim lol. Confuses me a bit too.
greytshirt76@reddit
Because in modern times it literally only means pale.
No one is considering some sort of ethnic whiteness.
WulfTheSaxon@reddit
Both to both.
holiestcannoly@reddit
Caucasian is used to describe white.
One reason is due to people from India, who are of British descent, were claiming that they were white because of their ancestry/colonization etc. People got mad because they weren’t white, despite Indians arguing that they are white because their ancestors were white! Thats how the term Caucasian/white came to be, so people couldn’t use that argument anymore.
Funny how things work.
smugbox@reddit
Idk man my mom’s side of the family is Turkish and I consider them and myself white. To say that I’m mixed race would be a slap in the face to people who have to deal with actual racism. I’m not going to claim a struggle that isn’t mine.
trickyhunter21@reddit
The U.S. Census counts them as white. Socially and historically, it’s a mixed bag.
AngryyFerret@reddit
the us census is busted and set for a category expansion anyways
trickyhunter21@reddit
Agreed.
gwhite81218@reddit
I’ve always seen them as white. There’s a lot of variation within “white.” Like how most average Scandinavians look different from average Mediterraneans. It’s all a spectrum, and we just arbitrarily apply boundaries to it.
DJLEXI@reddit
No. My husband is Persian and does not consider himself white nor do I.
Cratertooth_27@reddit
DeJure? I think so. Defacto? No. Then again it’s not logical. Most wouldn’t consider people from Azerbaijan or Georgia to be white despite being literal Caucasians
ButtSexington3rd@reddit
I feel like there's a sub category of White But Ethnic being overlooked here in general
Cratertooth_27@reddit
In America a shockingly small c number of people consider ethnicity
berrykiss96@reddit
Probably. There’s definitely some Latinos that fall into that. It doesn’t feel unlike calling the Irish not-white.
traktorjesper@reddit
Haha that's the funniest shit. Americans started considering "caucasians" as the correct word to refer to white people of European origin, and "caucasian" means here that they're basically closer to god. But litteral, real caucasians are still "meh".
Contra_Mortis@reddit
It's a remnant of true biological racism. The three racial groups were negroid mongoloid and caucasoid. It's crazy that the term is still used at all.
traktorjesper@reddit
100%. I don't understand though why my comment is being downvoted. It's a historical fact that the term "caucasian" has a biblical aspect: it was believed when the term was adopted that the Ark of Noah was stranded in what is todays Caucasia. Thus, referring to white people as "caucasian", they tried to create a link between whites and biblical scripture as a way of justifying "being on top of the food-chain"
Contra_Mortis@reddit
I'd never heard the biblical aspect, that's really cool.
KobeBeatJesus@reddit
Americans aren't smart enough to know that Iranians are Aryans.
MittlerPfalz@reddit
No, I’ve been to Georgia and the vast majority of people there, if walking down the street in the U.S., would be described by people who see them as white.
Tjaeng@reddit
Do most Americans consider the Kardashians white?
berrykiss96@reddit
I don’t know that you’ll get consensus on that tbh. But I would guess no.
sweet_hedgehog_23@reddit
What would the Jenners be besides white? Aren't their parents both primarily of British descent?
kittenpantzen@reddit
Wut? I've been to Georgia, and they are pretty fucking white (yes, the country). Absolutely incredible food, btw.
Bright_Ices@reddit
Agreed. And it has shifted some over many years, as well.
glitterlipgloss@reddit
No, not right now. But what is "white" in this country has shifted a lot even in the last 100-ish years, and I imagine it will continue to do so.
Roughneck16@reddit
I'm half European and half Middle Eastern. See my DNA results.
Some Middle Eastern people are fair enough to pass for white, but they can stick out in other ways. My mom legally changed her Muslim-sounding name to something more Western to assimilate better after she emigrated.
Generally, Middle Eastern people are categorized as non-white, although most demographic questionnaires don't include a Middle Eastern/North African option.
SueNYC1966@reddit
No they are categorized as white by the U.S. government after they went to Court to be considered do.
Turgius_Lupus@reddit
Middle Eastern/North African is included under 'White' when it comes to demographic questions and the full text of the demographic question is present.
Roughneck16@reddit
Indeed it is. And it’s annoying.
Turgius_Lupus@reddit
The ask the SCOTUS to reverse its decision on the matter.
SueNYC1966@reddit
No but the Vegas does. They dude in Courage go be considered white so they would be included under the Asian Exclusion Act.
DrGoatLives@reddit
NOPE
stcrIight@reddit
Yes and no. Most likely you'd be called middle eastern or brown. The fairer people would just be called "white passing." Especially since a lot of Americans judge based on skintone without realizing you can't pass as "white" with certain ethnic features.
AngryyFerret@reddit
No.
ToTooTwoTutu2II@reddit
Legally they are Caucasian with white people, bur we separate Caucasians into white and brown.
jazzyjeffla@reddit
According to the US census they’re white. Even if Americans don’t see them as white, they’re white. Turks are definitely white, Persians are white, and Arabs are white. The line is drawn when you get to Pakistan.
The hold idea of race is HELL in the US. For a long time you couldn’t be a white hispanic in their census. Which any smart, travelled person knowns you can be black, Asian, white, mixed Hispanic. LATAM doesn’t see color like USA does.
washtucna@reddit
On paperwork, I think they would usually check the yes box, but in my experience, I think they're often seen as not white.
AngryyFerret@reddit
yeah basically white on paper but that’s about it
LoyalKopite@reddit
They are white by both US census and US Army system.
AngryyFerret@reddit
white on paper but not socially i think is the better explanation for that.
Otherwisefantastic@reddit
In the US, people with brown looking skin won't typically be considered/perceived as white. If a person has light enough skin, they may be perceived as white.
Basically, what you look like is often how you'll be considered/perceived, regardless of how correct or incorrect that is, or what gets filled in on the census.
This is just based on my own observations and how I've seen people look at things.
AngryyFerret@reddit
saving this to reply to a particularly dense person later
Iceespicyyy@reddit
No, we view them as Middle Eastern. White people here are generally of European descent.
Wallaroo_Trail@reddit
Are Italians and Spaniards white?
WoodsyAspen@reddit
Yes but they weren’t always. “White” has been an evolving category in the US and before wwii people of southern and eastern European descent were not uniformly considered white.
Almaegen@reddit
That is incorrect, they were considered white which is why they were allowed to immigrate however they weren't considered the right kind of white.
1Negative_Person@reddit
I’d argue that a lot of Americans would not consider Spaniards to be “white” because the Spanish language is so firmly associated with Central and South America, who US Americans would consider to be “brown”. Yeah, it’s that stupid.
No_Poet_7244@reddit
Can’t forget the Irish. The whitest people in the world weren’t considered white for a very long time in the United States.
cawfytawk@reddit
Because they were poor and Catholic. Puritanical Protestant Americans viewed any and all not Mayflower white Protestant as minorities and "ethnic".
BelovedCroissant@reddit
My Irish ancestors happened to be Protestants who married into a Mayflower community and eventually over the generations married Catholics. Got ‘em.
cawfytawk@reddit
The Irish Catholic - Protestant conflic spans centuries outside of the US. It's a whole other thing onto itself.
JimBones31@reddit
Exactly! Need to signal an airplane? Ask Murphy to take his shirt off. 😆
Mysteryman64@reddit
He won't.
Sunburn.
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
Not if he has SPF 1000 on.
Mysteryman64@reddit
True, you might manage to get 5 minutes of no shirt time with that.
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
Enough time to signal that plane to land 😅
No-Lobster9104@reddit
That’s just not true. In a legal sense, all of those groups were always considered white. Ethnic discrimination =\= racial
nakedonmygoat@reddit
Sure, for legal and census purposes. But tell me why my father had to go to a segregated school even though he has white skin and blue eyes. Having a Spanish surname meant he couldn't go to the "white" school, even though he was white on the census.
OP was asking how people are perceived, not their census designation.
TBallinsPremPass@reddit
Please open a hairier book
DCChilling610@reddit
The question wasn’t just about a legal sense but social
No-Lobster9104@reddit
hard to separate those when it determined whether or not you could migrate to the US (ie Chinese ban) and where you sat on the bus or the train
GaiaMoore@reddit
Finns are European, and youbetcha these discussions affected them in a ridiculous way
You can read the rest of the trial description for yourself, but the judge had to reason "well they were Asian then but they're white now" before allowing them to become naturalized citizens
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States
WoodsyAspen@reddit
It’s certainly true that they were not considered “non-white” in the legal sense that Black Americans were, but I wasn’t talking about the legality. From a social perspective there was a lot of tension in categories of race categorization in the early 20th century that resulted in significant changes in how certain ethnic groups were perceived and treated. I really recommend the book linked below on the topic!
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674951914
No-Lobster9104@reddit
It’s a myth, simple as that. You can’t sit and tell me Italians weren’t considered white while the Chinese were banned from migrating and Mexicans (who were seen as racially mixed), were being straight up deported. Ethnic discrimination is not unique to the US; Italian immigrants were mass-lynched France for the same reason they faced mistreatment in the US upon arrival. Would you tell me that because of this, they weren’t considered white by the French?
DominantDave@reddit
There was even a time in early America when Germans weren’t considered white. Google it and read about it. It’s interesting tbh.
ClassicDull5567@reddit
Yes, according to most of the “pick your race” questions I have seen. But in America we have a separate checkbox for “Hispanic origin”, which allows you to be anything and still check “Hispanic”.
FinsFan305@reddit
The whole US system of racial identity is archaic and all over the place. It needs a total overhaul.
SVAuspicious@reddit
We were well on our way to racial agnosticism (not perfect but good and getting better) until the '10s when identity politics was dragged into the mainstream. We've lost decades of progress in just a few years. Before then there were still people who discriminated but they were looked down on socially and most kept their beliefs to themselves as a result.
Identity politics have had a much more significant impact on statistical American belief systems than 9/11.
It is apparent that what people say they believe and how they act is often quite different. The stereotypical white liberal woman is a good example.
Personal and group characterizations by category other than race such as immigration status and religion are all mixed up in the morass.
It's difficult to talk about objectively because so many people get offended seemingly as a profession and screech "racism."
Evening-Caramel-6093@reddit
Pretty high on your list?
mitshoo@reddit
You mean it needs to be abandoned because it’s fictional. Or rather, it already has been overhauled because we realized it’s wrong. The closest modern thing that’s real is called “population genetics.”
DCChilling610@reddit
Yes because Hispanic isn’t a race. It just mean from a Spanish speaking country aka south of the border (except for Brazilians I guess)
HolyFlyingPizza@reddit
That field on the census says Hispanic or Latino, so anyone from Mexico, the Spanish Caribbean, Central and South America, and Spain should check off that box.
Dr_Watson349@reddit
Hispanic is any country that speaks Spanish. It has nothing to do with location.
Swurphey@reddit
Hispanic includes Spain but excludes Brazil, Latino excludes Spain but includes Mexico and everything south of it
SinisterNovella@reddit
Depends on who you ask- some will say yes and others will say no.
The12th_secret_spice@reddit
Italians got white status in the early 20th century through food, sports, and the arts/Hollywood.
Check out the history behind Columbus Day and the 19th century lynching of Italians in NOLA. Pretty interesting stuff.
BoysenberryPale4048@reddit
Spaniards are considered Hispanic.
HolyFlyingPizza@reddit
Definitely, yeah. I’m Italian-American and I’m definitely considered white. I occasionally get mistaken for Latine but once I tell people I’m Italian they know I’m white.
B_U_F_U@reddit
Not Italians. They season their food.
Typical_Choice58@reddit
Field whites
LazyBoyD@reddit
Yes they are white. To the average American, and yes I’m being facetious some — you’re white, black, Mexican/Hispanic, or Muslim. To average foreigner across the pond, Americans are White or Black.
ButtSexington3rd@reddit
Don't forget Asian and Native American, they're the other two
MisogenesXL@reddit
Not to me.
solomons-marbles@reddit
They’re considered white, but Tarantino nailed it in Denis Harper’s monologue in True Romance… I’m black Irish (genetically).
Physical_Floor_8006@reddit
Kinda
hornbuckle56@reddit
No. White people are generally from the UK, Germany, Scandinavia, or France.
Traditional_Entry183@reddit
I'm from an area that's so "white" that some members of my family viewed my relationship with an Italian american exgf as almost interracial. No exaggerating.
Otherwise-OhWell@reddit
Have you ever watched "True Romance?"
ophmaster_reed@reddit
Nnnyes?
Forsythia77@reddit
My father was born in 1942 in Williamsport Pennsylvania back then, Italians lived in black neighborhoods because they were not seen as white white and were not allowed to live in WASP-y white areas. But 2025? They are white white.
TheRealDudeMitch@reddit
Yes
Wickerpoodia@reddit
No.
Highway49@reddit
Legally, they've always been white. Socially is a different matter.
roskybosky@reddit
Of course they’re white. What else would they be?
Icy-Whale-2253@reddit
sì and sí
Irak00@reddit
Depends- there’s a difference between race & nationality.
Iceespicyyy@reddit
Yes
FamineArcher@reddit
Yes
No-Customer2805@reddit
*German/Nordic
Iceespicyyy@reddit
Not every white is of German or Nordic descent
No-Customer2805@reddit
Plus slavic, but not Mediterranean.
HolyFlyingPizza@reddit
Get out of here with that bs, you sound like a klansman. My family is from Italy and I’ve never been considered anything but white my entire life. People from the Mediterranean parts of Europe are white.
No-Customer2805@reddit
Because the term "white" originally only referred to the English. To quote Benjamin Franklin:
That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionally very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.
While Franklin appears to be basing this complexion - it clearly isn't, because anyone who has been to Sweden amd England knows they are paler on average than the English. The only real conclusion you can come to then is that the term "white" exists to establish specifically English ethnocentricism.
HolyFlyingPizza@reddit
It isn’t the 1800s anymore.
No-Customer2805@reddit
It really is, if you have sworn to protect the constitution
AngryyFerret@reddit
race and ethnicity and originalism/textualism are two different topics
Iceespicyyy@reddit
Yes Mediterranean people are considered white
Badass-Puppy@reddit
There are regions within the Mediterranean that are also middle eastern. So are they considered "white" or "brown"?
AngryyFerret@reddit
it depends on where in the med
roskybosky@reddit
I think John Travolta and Leo DeCaprio are white.
sarahprib56@reddit
My last name is Czech but I'm only like 7%. My dad's family assimilated and intermarried quickly after moving here. I still had a great grandmother alive until I was in high school in the late 90s. Once when visiting her, she was rambling about how her (maiden name Hall) family did not want her to marry my great grandfather because he was not considered white. I just looked and she was b in 1903 and he was born in 1895.
I look very white with light brown hair and green eyes because my mother is mostly Swedish but a half black coworker saw a picture of my dad and asked me if he was 100% white. He tans very dark and has brown eyes, which seems to be all it takes for us Americans.
hunkerd0wn@reddit
Pretty sure Mediterranean is included too
InterPunct@reddit
Northern, Southern, and Eastern European are generally considered white but as with most things, it's not that simple.
theoriginalcafl@reddit
Romance and Slavic people are white
No-Customer2805@reddit
Nah, Mediterraneans nor Irish were considered white by our forefathers and shall remain so.
Ok_Number2637@reddit
What the fuck were irish considered then?
CerebralAccountant@reddit
Catholic.
No-Customer2805@reddit
They were viewed as another race, one that just happened to have white skin. One writer described the Irish as “white chimpanzees”, and other references to the Irish as apes or monkeys were commonplace. In Races of Britain (1862) the “Celts” were stated to be closely related to Cromagnon man, which in turn was said to be “Africinoid”. Even as late as 1934 the Irish were said to be of “the Mediterranean race”, and that for racial reasons were more likely to be criminals, insane, and diseased. There was a great fear that the “purity” of the white race would be sullied by “intermingling” with the Irish and other races.
Beautiful-Mountain73@reddit
How they were viewed isn’t really relevant to the conversation. Today, there is no American that would say that Irish people aren’t white people.
Ok_Number2637@reddit
Thank you for the history lesson :)
Wallaroo_Trail@reddit
drunk
Ok_Number2637@reddit
Ok I mean... Fair assessment but damn you ain't had to come out swinging
hunkerd0wn@reddit
Lol nah, they also considered women beneath men and not deserving of a vote. Things change. They're included now.
Badass-Puppy@reddit
So "white" is more about wether you have the European phenotype or not as opposed to your skin color?
Finn-boi@reddit
I’d say Turks could be considered white as they aren’t Arab & Iranians are lumped in with Arabs. As white as kazakhs and Albanians at least
WyoGuy2@reddit
Our government, however, does say they are white.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/17/1079181478/us-census-middle-eastern-white-north-african-mena
oldsak2001@reddit
That is no longer true. As of last year, MENA is a separate racial group from white.
Humbler-Mumbler@reddit
Most Middle Eastern Americans I’ve known don’t consider themselves white. But no, the rest of the population doesn’t either.
Optimal-Bass3142@reddit
No, they aren't viewed as white. I would be surprised if the average American understands that Turkey and Iran are not Arab countries.
baddspellar@reddit
Since race is a social construct it depends on your motivatuon
The census explicitly includes them as "white": https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html
If you're racist, white is reserved for people of European descent. I don't know what they call people of middle eastern descent. The nationalotoes you mention are all majority muslim, so you can be sure they don't classify them as white.
thepineapplemen@reddit
Case by case basis. For those that look white, yes, for those that don’t, no
AngryyFerret@reddit
simple but correct
poorperspective@reddit
No.
But to explain you have to understand the levels and pecking order of what is “white” in the US.
WASPs (White-Anglo-Saxon Protestants) are the most white. They get to choose who is and who isn’t white.
Next are the Catholics and orthodox faiths from European countries - Irish, Italians, etc. They weren’t considered “white” for a while. But mostly were by the time most were 3rd generation immigrants. The contingency doesn’t really come up if they are white unless it involves politics. There have only been 2 Catholic presidents. JFK and Biden.
Then you have the Jewish people from European countries, considered white post WW2. Non-religious culturally Jewish people are more white than religious observing Jewish people.
Currently
Most people from an Islamic background are not considered white. Some that are lighter in complexion and have Anglo- Saxon names. But since 911, most Americans will not consider any Muslim “white”.
South East Asian decent, never white.
Indian Americans, never white.
Americans with Latin American background, never white.
Americans with an African background never white.
Now you might ask what about German speaking or Scandinavian speaking diaspora? Most German diaspora in the US anglicized their name and rejected their heritage around the start of WWI. Most other Northern European diaspora did the same.
AngryyFerret@reddit
very good answer
JustAskingQuestionsL@reddit
Not generally, unless they look white.
The reason Middle Easterners are considered “white” legally is because there used to be a time in which only blacks and whites were given full citizenship privileges, and Asians weren’t. A Syrian or so sued the government, claiming that if he wasn’t white, Jesus wasn’t either. The Anglo society then had to consider which was more acceptable to them: Jesus being non-white, or (some) middle easterners being white. They largely chose the latter.
SouthBayBoy8@reddit
No
roth1979@reddit
I do, but in practice, for society, it has been more complicated. Preception of whiteness of most Middle Eastern and Mediterranean people changes depending on how Americanized they are. For example, a first generation immigrate who speaks little English and dresses traditional in clothing is perceived to be less white than their American raised children. It has always been this way. In the early 1900s, my great grandparents' parents were segregated to the black neighborhood. However, their children would live in white only neighborhoods.
MrOptimum@reddit
Mostly no, "Middle Eastern" is my category. Funny enough, the middle eastern immigrants I know are all super patriotic and constantly express their love for America, far more than any white, American people I know. It reminds me how much we take our country and our freedoms for granted
Giuseppe127@reddit
No, Middle Eastern or North African is an officially designated race in the Census that's separate from white
designgrl@reddit
No
Hillbillygeek1981@reddit
Having at least some education in history and biology, I know that even to say "middle eastern people" as a blanket term is a gross simplification that doesn't really hold up under scrutiny. Middle Eastern covers a gene pool and ethnic diversity that includes Caucasian, African and Asian peoples and literally hundreds of distinct ethnic groups and national identities. Mind you, adjacent to that knowledge is also awareness that racial concepts like black, white or brown are entirely fallacious social constructs only recently taken up to divide people. The concept of race being a product of skin color is relatively recent, before that a Welshman and a Scotsman would consider themselves separate if similar races and a Frenchman practically an alien.
All that info dump aside. Both racist and non racist Americans have some pretty ridiculous ideas when it comes to race, and considering middle easterners a different race is a common behavior.
SordoCrabs@reddit
As an early primary school kid, yes. My earliest concept of race started with white and black people. Later I recognized Native American and (East) Asian. Then Hispanic. Then South Asian and Arab/Middle Eastern, and bi-racial people. The last major ethnic group that I would recognize was Australian aboriginal, and that was around 6th grade/12 years old.
By the time I was 10 years old, I probably would have considered Middle Eastern folks as a separate population from white.
Flettie@reddit
Should we all be issued with a paint colour chart so we know who to look down on?
TricellCEO@reddit
It depends if we’re lumping Central Asian countries like Kazakhstan into the Middle Eastern category. I’ve seen how fair-skinned people from that country can be, and I would at least call them “white-passing” (i.e. most people would consider them to be white, and they can call themselves white without most people questioning it).
My former manager is also Assyrian, and she at most looks like she had a slight tan and can totally pass as a white person. I believe Turks are pretty fair-skinned as well.
So really, it boils down to appearances. However, if and when someone finds out where you’re from, that label might be revoked and they’d consider you something other than white.
No-Medium9657@reddit
>It depends if we’re lumping Central Asian countries like Kazakhstan into the Middle Eastern category. I’ve seen how fair-skinned people from that country can be, and I would at least call them “white-passing” (i.e. most people would consider them to be white, and they can call themselves white without most people questioning it).
Those you're speaking about are Russians/Slavs and Germans from Kazakhstan. Native Kazakh people are Asians with slanted eyes.
RoundandRoundon99@reddit
Whiteness in the US is more than skin color. In most communities it means English or Northern European descent, multi generational presence in the US, native English proficiency and Christianity (usually Protestant).
Are all Iranians white? Sure they are caucasians, but would most commonly be described as middle eastern.
Designer-Carpenter88@reddit
No. Hahahaha no
Caz4dor@reddit
The Christian Arabs seem to pass as white in America. Whiteness kind of evolves as it's needs change anyways lol.
Merkkin@reddit
No
Highly_Regarded_1@reddit
I avoid the use of the word, "white" for any person. It is not an apt descriptor.
CIMARUTA@reddit
https://youtu.be/5lnTvwdoQFw?si=rsznIKKc6T8LLps3
Wooden-Astronaut8763@reddit
It depends, I sometimes see some of them who appear to be just as white as your average American white person.
spareribs78@reddit
No. But I’ve seen plenty of Persians in America try to pass themselves off as white
Visible-Shop-1061@reddit
Plenty of Turkish people are basically white. They're like Greeks.
Badass-Puppy@reddit
Especially in western turkey if we are talking purely skin color wise people are very much white. It's a different game tho if you are looking at the eastern side
Own_Tart_3900@reddit
Persians are non Arab and may have a "whiter" appearance. Also, from a nation that was once pretty advanced economically and educationally. Has hit the skids and stuck with "Islamic Radical" label since Iranian Revolution, 1979, and so- people perceived as "browner "...
Conclusion: these are movable cultural categories- not "racial "
Electrical_Orange800@reddit
Such a weird take to write
Bright-Wrongdoer-227@reddit
Why wouldn’t they be white? Being white isn’t about skin color or tone you know. There are Italian and Greeks who look brown does that mean they aren’t white?? Brown isn’t a race
nymrod_@reddit
Psst… race isn’t real…
Bright-Wrongdoer-227@reddit
I agree . It’s a social construct. Not only Europeans are supposed to be considered white . North Africans and middle eastern people are also racially white. There’s plenty of people in the US who are 3/4/5 generation American of Arab or Persian descent and easily pass as white because of their facial features or other mannerisms. It’s a long topic honestly
nymrod_@reddit
Talking about who is “supposed to be considered” what sounds an awful lot like you think it’s real
Bright-Wrongdoer-227@reddit
I’m not sure why people find it unusual or weird that middle eastern people are also racially white. White doesn’t mean just European ……
nymrod_@reddit
No one is “racially white,” “whiteness” is not a genuine quality people have other than in the eye of the beholder. White exclusively means whatever the person using it thinks it means.
I’m not saying I object to the idea of people of middle-eastern descent identifying as white either, to be clear (or that it’s in any way a novel concept to me). I was answering how I think most Americans would.
greytshirt76@reddit
White just means pale to most people in the modern era. You know that .... Right?? Most people from Persia do not fucking look pale like a slav or a Germanic nation look pale
Bright-Wrongdoer-227@reddit
Well this topic doesn’t even cross the minds of most Americans. Middle eastern people aren’t necessarily are big population in the US…
KingAshleyWilliams@reddit
I live in Michigan, and they're a huge population here.
Own_Tart_3900@reddit
South Europeans, Jews, Arabs, Iranians, Turks, north Indians, berbers.." Caucasians actually from the Caucasus... All "white", yet many "tan and brown ".
Little rhyme or reason.
Own_Tart_3900@reddit
But, it's important to look into how people really see groups, without taking any of that as "real" in some essential way.
Own_Tart_3900@reddit
North Indians are closest thing to actual "Aryans" , and are typically tan, beige, brown.....
Eat that, Nazis....
Jakobites@reddit
Unfortunately have felt with a lot of racists in the last 50 years and they generally consider Italians, Greeks and Spanish to be “really white” either.
That’s before you get to the whole Irish, Pols, Catholic thing.
Can’t generally apply logic to understand things that don’t include logic in their creation.
JadeBeach@reddit
Persians are Indo-European.
FinsFan305@reddit
What else would they be?
awmaleg@reddit
Arabs
Bright_Ices@reddit
Most Persians are not Arab. The exception is people who have significant heritage from both.
FroodingZark24@reddit
Still what most Americans would call 'em. Which I think is what the spirit of the post is about.
Physical_Floor_8006@reddit
Middle eastern
Professional-Rent887@reddit
Asian
ItchyDoggg@reddit
If they didn't call all white people Sefids clearly indicating they see themselves as something other than that, it would be more of a discussion.
ItchyDoggg@reddit
Brown
therealdrewder@reddit
I don't concern myself with racist questions like if a particular geoup is "white" or not. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with the information if i have it.
Optras@reddit
Greek would generally be about the furthest extent as to what may be considered "white"
makerofshoes@reddit
In college I knew a guy from Turkey who was blond and had blue eyes, and bronze skin. He looked like a stereotypical California surfer dude or something. That kind of challenged the idea of “European = white” in my head
MelanieDH1@reddit
I had a Greek coworker, who would always complain about the crazy old white women who were customers where we worked. She’d always say, “I’m not white. I’m Greek!” 🤣
Traditional-Joke-179@reddit
i've met a few italians who did not consider themselves white.
there are also a number of famous italians and greeks who i was pretty surprised are not poc, like jason mantzoukas.
boss level: ariana grande pre this past year or so
Iceespicyyy@reddit
Used to be the same way with Italians, but classifications have changed now that immigration has become more normalized.
SevenSixOne@reddit
Yeah, this is not something I ever think about.
A person's relationship with their own identity can be complicated, so if someone IDs as white instead of (or in addition to?) some other ethnicity/nationality/whatever, then I'll accept that without question; they're the expert on their own life 🤷♀️
B-Boy_Shep@reddit
I'm part southern Italian part Greek/ Balkan. I totally get this. As a kid i thought turkish people are white because they look like us. Little did I know we were the ones on the fence 😂
roskybosky@reddit
Jennifer Aniston is Greek. I think she’s white.
1Negative_Person@reddit
Legally, yes. Practically, no.
Most census related systems would use criteria that lump all of those groups into “white”. Those same systems would probably not draw a distinction betwixt East Asian people and South Asian people.
In practice, most Americans (of any race) are going to consider anyone remotely “Middle Eastern” to be not “white”. As a matter of fact, they’d probably consider South Asian peoples to be “Middle Eastern” before they’d say they were Asian.
It doesn’t take a whole lot of melanin to get booted out of White Club (but we have rules prohibiting us from talking about that)
Willing_Fee9801@reddit
Americans would either consider them brown or "white-passing." White-passing means they look white, but are not.
Wizdom_108@reddit
No.
amcjkelly@reddit
This is going to sound strange, but unless you are trying to use your ancestors to get a preference for a ob or into college, nobody is going to care what you identify as on a census form.
PsychologicalBat1425@reddit
If you are referring to classification by race, there are only 3 races and in the US, Americans of Middle Eastern descent are classified as white. Many people choose to identify as their ethniticity.
Tsujigiri@reddit
Technically our systems of demographics typically qualify them as Asian due to the continent of their ancestry.
Ana_Na_Moose@reddit
By looks alone, many Americans might assume many Middle Easterners are white. But as soon as any hints of Islam or of Middle Eastern descent are recognized, then Middle Easterners are immediately seen as non-white.
Don’t ask me why a suspected Sicilian is considered white yet a suspect Lebanese is considered non-white. But that is the way the western world works
Professional_Mood823@reddit
Nah, they are all brown, like Jesus.
Downtown_Finish_4903@reddit
It really depends on how westernized and white passing they are. A third generation Lebanese guy who grew up in Michigan would be viewed in the same category as Greeks and Italians
hithisispat@reddit
No
Odd-Software-6592@reddit
We don’t consider Greeks, Italians, or Jews as white. But things are changing.
scylla@reddit
The average American has no idea that ‘white’ people exist in places like Lebanon, Turkey and Iran.
Those people in the US pass for White until someone actually knows where they’re from. This is why so many Middle Eastern characters in Hollywood are played by Indian or Pakistani-origin actors. Most Americans don’t realize that a significant population in the Mediterranean and Iran have white skin and light eves/hair 😀
keralaindia@reddit
As an Indian American this thread is wild. I consider basically most middle easterners white. Bashar al Assad is white to anyone in my family. I am not white.
Adnan7631@reddit
This is complicated.
Legally, Middle-Eastern people are white. There’s a Supreme Court case about it and Arabs and Turks are instructed to mark “White” on the census (though maybe that’s changing?)
A lot of Middle Eastern people have pale skin. Others have darker complexions but can pass as, say, Italian. As a result, if someone doesn’t have an accent and doesn’t have obvious cultural or religious signifiers, the majority of Americans would be unable to identify that someone is middle-eastern. Indeed, there’s a fair number of Americans who have Arab ancestry and don’t know it.
However, the CULTURE and RELIGION of the Middle East are associated with being Brown.
(For the record, the term “Middle-East is terrible. It includes an area that is WAY larger than the United States, encompassing loads of different ethnicities and languages, with fuzzy definitions. More specific terms, like Arab or Persian or North African are way more useful.)
External_Produce7781@reddit
No, but the census does.
DiscordianStooge@reddit
Formally, yes, middle easterners are supposed to choose "White" as their demographic on things like the census.
But no, for the most part people would not see them as white.
pak0608@reddit
I recently found out the us government does (or did) and I was surprised.
HotTopicMallRat@reddit
No, but for some reason paperwork does??
Tongue4aBidet@reddit
The lines here are too blurred. You can't make generalizations like that. Any other answers are just perception.
Hollow-Official@reddit
No. Arabs are seen as Semitic, Turks are seen as Asian, and Iranians while actually Indo-European peoples who are closely related to white people are culturally viewed as non-white Asians.
GrouchyDeli@reddit
Im American and ill go against some kind of grain here: unless you are born as or a long time raised American, I dont even think of someone as being "White." They're just, their ethnicity. Color really doesnt matter otherwise to me.
Chickadee12345@reddit
I work for a company that does surveys. We ask about race on almost every survey we do. It depends on the client, but often they are lumped in with Asians. While some clients break out Middle Eastern separate from Asian. White is usually only meant for Caucasians. Though the respondent is able to pick any category they choose to identify with.
JesusStarbox@reddit
If there is no category for Middle Eastern then pick other.
coraige7@reddit
You say that, but the census identifies middle eastern people, and some north African people as "White".
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/17/1079181478/us-census-middle-eastern-white-north-african-mena
itsON-Ders@reddit
This is changing in the next census! Finally I don’t have to pick “white” on applications and stuff as a Persian guy
Rapptap@reddit
Real American view? I don't give a care what your skin tone is. I have many people from many ethnic backgrounds working with me right now. And there's no problems. On breaks, we share things from our cultures. I learned today that Trinidad and West Africa have similar cuisines due to Indian influence.
Green_Count2972@reddit
No although for the Turks it depends
unix_name@reddit
No. At least not in California, Arizona or NY which are the places that I have lived in for long periods of time. Honeslty never met anyone who has. However, I have heard people say…you are so white…to people who aren’t…so instead of skin color, we have considered even the darkest people white if they are American enough if that makes sense. This was when I was in highschool. Myself, I wouldn’t get hung up on that, it’s silly.
TimeVortex161@reddit
ITT, a lot of people who think Arab is the only middle eastern ethnicity.
(Caucasus people usually pass as white, Turks, Kurds, and some Iranians and afghanis will pass as white in heavily Latino/italian/beachy areas. Many Israelis will seem white but not full white, and some Palestinians and Jordanians can seem white passing in diverse areas. Once you get further south than that, people stop being white passing unless cosmetics are used. Pakistan is also nonwhite, unless you try to fake it like Nikki Haley.
Agile_Writing_1606@reddit
Depends on how much crusader blood you got but in general no.
starcityguy@reddit
I would say most Americans consider Western Europeans white. Beyond that probably not a lot of consensus.
commanderquill@reddit
This comment section is wild. People of these groups often classify themselves as white, because legally they are. Every single race question that mentions Middle Eastern at all will have "White/Middle Eastern". It's never a separate category.
Socially/politically, however, Americans classify them as brown. The difference has to do with a long history where preferential immigration status was given to people who were white. This is why Irish people didn't use to be considered white, and why Italians are but Mexicans aren't, despite being pretty much the same skin color. Now, perception has turned against people of Middle Eastern descent politically, hence the social status of brown, but the legal status has yet to follow (probably because it isn't quite so easy to change as before).
stevepremo@reddit
There is movement toward using a separate classification for Middle East/North African, or MENA, but currently in the census they are classified as white. Most Americans consider them brown, not white, although we are all shades of brown no matter where we are from.
commanderquill@reddit
While a good effort, it won't solve the question, because MENA isn't a color. White/brown/black/etc. is an entirely different system of racial classification than geographical delineation (European/Asian/American/MENA/etc.) or ethnic delineation (Persian/Arab/Russian/etc.).
You would need to use another color, which people did with red and yellow, and which history realized was both kind of fucked up and that there are better ways to describe them (Indigenous, Asian). Black was claimed by the people it describes and white people made up the system in the first place. It works (to an extent) because neither the group viewed as black or the group viewed as white can actually be broken down into the other categorizations. Sure, white Americans were primarily originally European, but they aren't anymore culturally or geographically. Likewise, black people were primarily originally African, but they aren't anymore culturally or geographically. Furthermore, white and black are necessary terms for discussing colorism that encompasses multiple groups and parts of groups.
White and black exist, so brown was invented to fill in the gaps, but it just... doesn't work. The groups that "brown" is used to tie together aren't tied together. South Americans, Central Americans, Middle Easterners, and Southeast Asians cannot be lumped into one category like that (not even to discuss or describe colorism, because the colorism, the history, and the impact experienced by South Americans is different from that experienced by Middle Easterners), and they fit into better ones. Most also come from parts of the world that doesn't categorize itself by colorism. This is why the whole thing breaks down.
TLDR; It'll continue to be a problem forever.
A11U45@reddit
As someone was born and grew up in southeast Asia with family there, this is the first and only time I've seen southeast Asians lumped in with brown people.
commanderquill@reddit
Americans be wild, man.
Some liberal social groups I've been in put them there, I guess because their skin is darker so they must face the same discrimination? Also India, I meant to include South Asia in my list too. Mostly India, to be fair, but I've actually had Indonesians tell me that people have thought they were Indian before.
I think it has something to do with there being a mental division for most Americans between Southeast Asian and East Asian, and how when Asian Americans are talked about people think mostly of East Asians.
trelene@reddit
Very recently another category has been added to official US forms. "Middle Eastern or North African" and is scheduled to be on the next census for the first time. I believe it might be currently used on other forms.
JNorJT@reddit
No
npb0179@reddit
I don’t because I look at Middle Easterners as Eurasian, but I understand like any grouo they can vary racially.
It all depends, are we talking Gal Gadot, Natalie Portmans…then I consider them White.
Salma Hayek, Shakira & Hadids, I consider them multiracial.
Any ME celebrities look like the Shahs of Sunset I do not consider White or Asian alone.
anthraff@reddit
On paper yes, and some do for sure,
fruitbat2005@reddit
Depends on what the individual looks like, Middle Easterners are not at all visually homogenous, even within ethnic groups. But if they are wearing anything that makes them look stereotypically "Muslim", such as a headscarf, that probably would cause them to be perceived as non-white, regardless of skin, eye, or hair colour. A rather infamous incident after 9/11 involved a Sikh man named Balbir Singh Sodhi, who wore a traditional headscarf similar to a turban, being murdered in an Islamophobic hate crime, as he was mistakenly perceived as Muslim by the assailant.
The_Awful-Truth@reddit
The whole idea of "race" in this country is on the way out, and not a moment too soon. 42% of the population is already considered "non white", with the fastest growing categories being "two or more races" and "some other race" (where most Middle Easterners go).
Educational-Sundae32@reddit
Depends many Hispanic people are also considered White, and with the high degree to which Latino and White pelle marry each other, what’s probably going to happen is that White hispanic people will be considered White in the near future, like how the Irish or Italians eventually became white.
teaanimesquare@reddit
It will really depend on how they look, a lot of Turks, Persians and Lebanese look white so they'd pass as white.
Francie_Nolan1964@reddit
Middle Eastern people are classified as caucasian. But their ethnicity is Middle Eastern. Most official forms in the US ask for your race, and then ask if you're Hispanic or non-hispanic. Middle Eastern should be the same way.
I do think of them as white to answer your question though.
thattogoguy@reddit
No.
Educational-Sundae32@reddit
Depends if they’re Christian or Muslim.
AdamOnFirst@reddit
No
tn00bz@reddit
No, most Americans consider middle eastern people just that. I know in the UK they're considered Asian, that's weird to us too. However, legally, people from the Middle East are considered white in the US.
Visible-Shop-1061@reddit
Turkish people would mostly be considered white. Arabs and Persians would be considered Middle Eastern and also the same as North Africans. Turkish People are kind of like Greek people. They are the ambiguous area between European and Arab.
FluidFisherman6843@reddit
Race is a funny thing. The only thing that makes a person white is the fact that they aren't not white.
What qualifies as "not white" has changed over time based on the economic and political interests of those that are white.
Before the election, yes the groups you mentioned would be publicly called white. After the election....
JennyPaints@reddit
In a word no. Many Americans don't consider the Spanish white. But we're slowly getting better- in the 1920s we didn't think either the Irish or the Italians were white and we'vegottenover that.
Frankly, we need to stop idealizing whiteness. My vote is that we inter-marry until we're all tan.
Laiko_Kairen@reddit
Because Spanish is for brown people, obviously /s
White supremacists sometimes call Portugal "Moore-tugal" 😬
MeanderFlanders@reddit
No
No_Perspective_242@reddit
Not even a little
deutschdachs@reddit
The US Census would consider them "white"
Your everyday American would most likely not
Dapper_dreams87@reddit
In my experience, middle easterners are simply referred to as middle eastern or from the middle east or middle eastern characteristics.
Typical_Choice58@reddit
No
classisttrash@reddit
I’ve heard mixed reviews on Turks with the Caucasus in Turkey and I know a few Iranian-Americans who call themselves Caucasians as well but for the most part when referring to Middle Eastern people, Americans don’t seem to consider them white. This is all anecdotal though based on my life on the east coast and definitely does not represent the experiences of all Americans
comrade_zerox@reddit
Not since 2001
Holiday_Macaron_2089@reddit
No they are seen as brown.
hurtingheart4me@reddit
Technically in the US any Hispanic person is considered “white” even if they are not what you would usually consider “white.” That’s why you have to further “white, hispanic” or “white, non hispanic.”
WulfTheSaxon@reddit
Not exactly. On the Census, there are two seperate questions for race and Hispanic status, so you can check black and Hispanic (e.g. Juan Williams) or for somebody who would identify as Mestizo in Mexico, probably “Other” and Hispanic.
shponglespore@reddit
Some Middle Eastern people look white, but no, I don't think anyone considers them white. I had a Syrian correct me when I said something that implied she's white.
infinite_five@reddit
No. They’re middle eastern.
Texas43647@reddit
No
AgeOfReasonEnds31120@reddit
Nope. It's a remnant of an era when Arabs were trying to count as white so they can have actual rights.
shinyming@reddit
They’re white to me. No question.
Massive_Dirt1577@reddit
It depends. Go 120 years back and most Americans would not consider Antonin Scalia “white.” I don’t think my Lebanese descended neighbors can really grasp that their ancestors were not considered white. My mother is so white a couple of her older relatives ended up in the Lebensborn program. I am betting the vast majority of Americans who consider themselves white wouldn’t come anywhere close to making that cut.
It’s part of the evil genius of whiteness. When it’s convenient almost anyone can get into the club. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz get to be white as long as they play ball with the GOP. As soon as they are on the outs with the junta they will suddenly become ethnically problematic.
There are phenotypic “edges” that might be rounded off, sometimes literally with nose jobs or a little work with laser hair removal. It is jarring and weird but some version of “conforming the standards of western beauty” is happening in a high school girls bathroom in rural Kansas with girls so white they could hide in a pile of bedsheets.
Short answer? Yeah, stay out of the sun, get friendly with hair removal products and talk to a plastic surgeon about getting your nose, chin and cheeks cut, shaved and filled to look as much like Jennifer Anniston or Chris Pratt as you can tolerate. If you do a Bobby Bonilla you have gone too far. If you get to Rita Hayworth (Margarita Carmen Cansino) stop you are at the sweet spot.
Jake_Corona@reddit
One of my best friends is Turkish. He’s white, but like a spicy kind of white. We joke though because he’s really tan and Hispanic people will stop him at the airport and try the speak to him in Spanish. He finds it amusing to respond to them in Turkish.
dgmilo8085@reddit
Nope
RockStarNinja7@reddit
For most Americans there are 5 general categories of people.
White. Literally anyone who looks white enough to pass as white.
Black. Literally anyone who looks black.
Asian. All east and west Asians.
Indian. Anyone who might be Indian, but also doesn't fall into the clearly looks Asian category.
Mexican. Anyone from a country south of the continental US border, but also Pacific Islanders and some eastern European people who don't look white, but also don't look Asian or Indian. It's basically a catch all for anyone who has brownish skin and doesn't fit into the other 3 categories of non white people.
Middle eastern people would probably be put into the Indian category but possibly Mexican. But again, if they have light enough skin might be considered white.
DIYnivor@reddit
No.
xSparkShark@reddit
Technically they were white on our census for a while. But no, white Americans who give a fuck about race do not view them as white. Especially after 9/11. Middle easterners haven’t been welcome among whites for 20+ years now. Even if we all technically fall under Caucasian on census stuff.
Chank-a-chank1795@reddit
Yes
There are 3 races.
You realize how close those places are to the Caucasus?
honey_rainbow@reddit
No we don't.
TheOmniverse_@reddit
Turkey, possibly (they are partially in Europe, after all), but not Arabs
IanDOsmond@reddit
"White" isn't really a racial category. It means "those people that mainstream bigots aren't bigoted against."
Bigots are bigoted against Middle Easterners. Therefore, Middle Easterners aren't white.
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
It depends on who you ask and two people with the same opinion will have different reasons for it.
EasyCupcake6997@reddit
Maybe it depends where you live. I'm in the northeast US and I hadn't ever thought of middle eastern people as other than "white" or light skinned. My BIL of Italian descent was called a "brown feller" when he visited Kentucky recently. He's pretty pale - guess it depends on what the locals pay attention to.
Concentrateman@reddit
Many Americans think they are all Muslim. Not a lot of nuances here.
degobrah@reddit
Dow v United States (1915)
I don't know all the ins and outs, and someone please correct me if you know more, but basically George Dow, a Syrian immigrant, applied for naturalization. He was denied because he was not considered white. He appealed and appealed and it went to the Supreme Court.
Instead of SCOTUS saying that race based naturalization is BS, they said that people from the MENA are white and therefore eligible for citizenship. Since then people with a MENA background are considered white for purposes of the census, but I don't think they would identify as white
RichLeadership2807@reddit
No but I believe they’re counted as white in the census
MatthewSBernier@reddit
NOPE
Shit, in New England, Italians still aren't white if they wanna marry your kids. And Irish, Polish, any part of the former USSR including Russia are iffy. Jews sure aren't white in Maine, skin color be damned. Really it's just British, French, and scandanavians, unless you've been here a couple generations.
watermark3133@reddit
No, not really. People from those countries can come in very skin colors including white. But they are thought of as always “brown” by Americans generally.
It’s to the point that most roles in American tv/film/media with Middle East/West Asian characters are actually played by South Asians, who are almost all brown skinned.
GlassCharacter179@reddit
My husband is Egyptian. He considers himself white, without question.
Technically I guess, if he were filling out a form he would be "African American" because he is from Africa and American. But he never puts that because that's really not what people mean when they ask for race.
So when filling out a form he puts "White" because that is what he identifies as and he definitely doesn't fit into the other categories provided.
But most people don't see him as being white. Whether they are biased against him because of that is a different issue.
mekonsrevenge@reddit
In my area, definitely not.
capsrock02@reddit
No
Knollibe@reddit
I pretty much view people as people, they earn asshole title by their actions.
MeanTelevision@reddit
I don't think most people think about it.
According-Couple2744@reddit
Growing up in the south in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s I recall people speaking of black people, white people, Indians and foreigners. Foreigners could mean anyone from Northern Europe to South America and wasn’t generally considered an insult. Now the term brown is popular.
NoBuilding1051@reddit
It depends. Someone whose family immigrated from Lebanon a hundred years ago will probably be considered white. Someone who immigrated from Yemen five years ago probably won't.
crinkum_crankum@reddit
I’m from one of those countries but have been here since I was a babe. Most people think I’m Italian or sometimes Greek. As long as the US is finding excuses to kick non-whites out, I’m Italian and I’m white. Salute!
over_kill71@reddit
nope
guyincognito147@reddit
No
BenjaminHarrison88@reddit
Not usually but many, especially well assimilated Turks, are basically white. Now Armenians I would say are white.
AssistantElegant6909@reddit
No, not even Assyrians
Budget-Attorney@reddit
If you asked someone what they think about Turks, Arabs, Persians they would probably say no.
But if you were one of the three and asked if we thought you were white without telling us what country you’re from there’s a good chance we say yes.
Depends what you look like and who you ask
NittanyOrange@reddit
There will be a "Middle East or North Africa" category on the next US census, which will be 2030.
Vivid_Witness8204@reddit
According to classical racial designations they are. But classical designations are a social construct and are no longer recognized as scientifically valid. So we're all just humans with differing traits and pigmentation.
Adept-Information728@reddit
Not always. I used to assume they were considered Asian because the middle east is in asia, but then I learned they are white, at least in the census and similar government things, so I've considered them white since.
freshboss4200@reddit
Per demographic choices on standard (US Census) questionnare options, it may be the best fit. In actual life they can face discrimination
gnomewife@reddit
It depends. If I'm thinking of "white" as referring to appearance and general regions of ancestry, yes. If I'm thinking of "white" as referring to shared languages, religious beliefs, and culture, no. But that latter definition is truly quite specific.
Significant-Pay3266@reddit
No
yahgmail@reddit
Some might, but I don't. They aren't treated as White in the US either (especially after 9/11).
RnBvibewalker@reddit
This can't be a real question.
You mean people who are often targeted and being called "terrorists" are thought to be white? Lol
Professional-Rent887@reddit
The U.S. Census classifies them as white.
RnBvibewalker@reddit
Is this thread about what the US census classifies?
Pretty sure the OP asked Americans.
JoyfulNoise1964@reddit
Normally no
gdubh@reddit
No. Most often simply referred to as middle eastern which implies brown.
AdelleDeWitt@reddit
So technically when you thought paperwork, Middle Eastern people are considered white. But to me the whole concept of white is "people who are perceived to be the standard ethnically privileged group," so if you can be targeted for discrimination from the establishment for your ethnicity you're not white. Middle Eastern people definitely experience ethnic discrimination from the police and other power structures, so to me that's not white.
ReactionAble7945@reddit
No. Do you look white? You are part of the olive skinned people.
And I generally I don't think about race until someone brings it up.
buffladylover300@reddit
Nope
LassierVO@reddit
I'm sure it varies a lot depending on where and when you were raised. I'm from an itty bitty farming town (stereotypically racist af). Growing up, people from the middle east were treated as white - until 9/11, when all of a sudden they weren't.
I don't go back to my hometown if I can help it, but based on how everything else is going, I assume anyone who so much as gets a tan is run out of town with pitchforks nowadays. (I'm joking. I think. I hope.)
Far-Brick9576@reddit
I tend to call Kurds, Assyrians, Armenians, Turks, Arabs, Persians, and the like as "Caucasian," and I reserve "White" for (white) Europeans and their descendants abroad. Heck, I suppose whatever ethnicity(ies) in India that clearly look similar to Europeans are technically Asian but look European and are from the Indo-European family. In summary, it's all confusing and at least partially arbitrary.
nymrod_@reddit
“Caucasian” on a census, yes, “white,” no.
winteriscoming9099@reddit
Depends on physical appearance. Usually I’d say they would be regarded as “brown”, but if you have fairer skin (I have a Turkish friend with quite light skin) you’d probably be “white”. They’d typically be regarded as middle eastern.
hornbuckle56@reddit
No.
SuperGlue_InMyPocket@reddit
By and large: no
EstablishmentShoddy1@reddit
No
Pinwurm@reddit
The next census will have MENA as a category: Middle Eastern and North African. This is because these folks are not generally viewed as white.
chihuahua2023@reddit
No. Most of my family don’t consider Italians, Portuguese, or Spaniards “White” either.
B-Boy_Shep@reddit
Damn ok now tell us how you really feel 😂 spoken in an Italian American accent
ophmaster_reed@reddit
🤌🤌
Highway49@reddit
KKK?
roskybosky@reddit
James Gandolfini wasn’t white?
BigNorseWolf@reddit
Nope
Environmental_Run881@reddit
Personally, I had not really thought of it, honestly. It sounds contrite, but I had not really separated them out in a category.
OrdinarySubstance491@reddit
Not really.
recoveringleft@reddit
Some MENA groups like the Berbers looked European.
Scared_Rain_9127@reddit
This is a question that in these times does not have a single answer. You should state which "Americans" you want an answer from.
Calaveras_Grande@reddit
Not really.
The American conception of Middle Easterners is that they are all Arabs. They don’t distinguish between Turk, Persian, Arab etc. But then even within Persian, my old boss Shazzi was very light skinned. But my friend Polli, also Persian, was as dark as someone from Tamil Nadu or Sri Lanka. They both insisted on ‘Persian’ not Iranian btw. But my friend Karim from Jordan would never get his whiteness questioned.
Whiteness in the US is very particular. I know people from S America that are 100% European (at least according to them) but their particular combination of German, Portuguese and whatever looks ‘funny’ to Americans.
You-Asked-Me@reddit
Nope. To most Americans the white guy from the middle east is Jesus Christ.
DryFoundation2323@reddit
Traditionally they fit into the Caucasian racial group.
ElderlyPleaseRespect@reddit
No
21_Mushroom_Cupcakes@reddit
No, hence the slur "sand n••••r"
Gunther482@reddit
Legally they usually are in terms of the government but in practice they generally are not considered “socially” white if that makes sense.
BreezyBill@reddit
All my older Lebanese relatives whose parents came over like 100 years ago at this point most definitely consider themselves and are considered by most other Americans as “White.”
TheRealDudeMitch@reddit
The census considers people with middle eastern ethnicities as white, but most people probably wouldn’t, especially if they have an accent or wear faith articles such as the hijab. People would likely call the Arab or Muslim
ButItSaysOnline@reddit
Middle Eastern.
NaomiiiTwinz@reddit
I personally don't. The Middle East is in Asia, I see them as Asian.
I have meet people who will say Turks, Armenians, Lebanese, etc... are white if they physical have paler skin than other Middle Easterners.
Shoshawi@reddit
Legally on forms it has to be checked usually but no I don’t. If someone looks white and is middle eastern though, I wouldn’t really be thinking into it either way unless it came up in conversation with them. Actually i probably still wouldn’t think about it if they spoke native English regardless of how they look, unless it came up in conversation or they were wearing very distinctive clothing that is uncommon to see here. If they aren’t native or are wearing clothes it’s hard to even buy here, it would be kind of hard not to notice.
Honest_Swim7195@reddit
Legally, middle eastern is grouped as white in US. Those from the Middle East sued for it almost 100 years ago.
Good-Concentrate-260@reddit
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/3/28/transformative-us-census-to-add-middle-eastern-north-african-category
Salty_Permit4437@reddit
No
guywithshades85@reddit
Nope. I'm part Turkish and people think I'm Mexican.
Good-Concentrate-260@reddit
I mean, whiteness is not scientific or biological, it is just how race is understood in a specific context. Many Arabs are light skinned and “look” white, but probably have a different culture from most American whites (depending on how assimilated they are). Basically, the U.S. changes races on the census over time. I believe the most recent one counted Arabs as their own race, so if you go by that, then sure Arabs are non-white. But the more you try to examine it, the more difficult it is to define whiteness.
michael-turko@reddit
No
charlottebythedoor@reddit
What do you mean by “view as?”
If you asked an American if [insert middle eastern ethnic group here] are white, for most ethnic groups, most would probably say no.
But there are people from those ethnic groups who look white (because whiteness is a cultural idea that changes), and if they’re just out and about in clothing that doesn’t identify their ethnicity, a lot of Americans would just passively assume they were white, until they learned their name.
Still-Presence5486@reddit
No we see them as middle eastern
prongslover77@reddit
American with middle eastern grandparents here. The government says we’re white in terms of race. Society says we’re brown. Especially after 9/11 and even more so if you’re visibly Muslim. My moms side of the family is white and both sides are Christian so socially I’m considered white 75% of the time. Then I spend any amount of time in the sun and my olive skin is waaay more prominent and I’m asked what race I am again. (Tbf 90% of people asking are just curious and lovely. The other 10% can eff off)
Top-Working7180@reddit
They definitely aren’t viewed as “White” by Americans
thornvilleuminati@reddit
All of them except Turkish. Once you start to move toward the Balkan area, I’d start to say white.
Highway49@reddit
These groups worked hard to legally be considered white at a time when being non-white sucked. Now these groups want to be considered non-white because being considered white doesn't bring any special legal benefits.
Brave_Mess_3155@reddit
I guess for official documents they're Non Hispanic Caucasians. personally I don't think of them as white, but i don't consider that a bad thing. Everybody doesn't have to be white.
QuarterNote44@reddit
Does your average joe? No, I don't think so. Does the government? Oftentimes, yes. Government docs sometimes say something like "RACE: White ETHNICITY: MENA."
Same thing happens with Puerto Ricans and people with Central/South American heritage.
ReallyEvilRob@reddit
No. They are beige.
vipnasty@reddit
There’s “white” and “white passing”. While most Americans wouldn’t consider Middle Easterner’s white they wouldn’t be able to tell the difference on a superficial basis. Light skinned middle easterners would be considered white by the average American. Take Dr. Oz for example. The average American wouldn’t realize he’s Turkish and just consider him white.
thornvilleuminati@reddit
Yes.
Wheaton1800@reddit
No. Definitely not.
OceanPoet87@reddit
It's kind of different. Historically they were classified as white or its 90's version, Caucasian by the census until the most recent one in 2020. But if asked most people would say that they are middle eastern
mathbud@reddit
Race is the dumbest concept. I can't believe we're running with it still. Made up lines arbitrarily drawn to divide people into "groups" for what purpose? So we can decide who it's fine to hate? So we can define who has been hated the most? Who it's ok to like? What's the point?
findingniko_@reddit
No. Though they can be ambiguous, and sometimes I can't tell the difference between them and some Southern Europeans. They are people of color in our perspective.
Playful-Business7457@reddit
No, we don't.
Ayangar@reddit
I do
boodyclap@reddit
It depends what's convenient, I've seen a lot of racists claim both depending on who or what they're talking about
"Arbas/Turkish/Persians in my town? They aren't even white! They're culture is so barbaric"
"Your calling me out for calling Arabs/Turkish/Persians barbaric? They're all white people! How can I be racist against white people if I'm white?"
Shrodingers racist I think they call it
Jujubeee73@reddit
No
WritPositWrit@reddit
Yes but only if they are pale like white people. Many Turks look like white people. Many Arabs and Persians are dark, so they’d be viewed as Middle Eastern, not white.
B-Boy_Shep@reddit
I think in general no. I personally kinda do but thats because the place i grew up in had a lot of middle easterners and they weren't very different from the white community. I for example am of Greek, Balkan, and South Italian ancestry. So I always thought turkish people looked pretty much like me. But thats just an internal view i know is not the majority.
But I wonder any other Greek/ Balkan white people have a similar view 🤔
Turgius_Lupus@reddit
Yes, and per the U.S. Census, Middle Eastern and North African are classified as 'White."
Wintergain335@reddit
No, we generally consider them all “middle eastern” but some more ignorant people would further incorrectly say they’re all “Arabs”. Generally in the US the criteria for whiteness is whether or not you could be dropped in the middle of a bunch of northern/eastern European people and physically blend in. This is why people from Southern Europe were not considered white until very recently.
Key-Wallaby-9276@reddit
No not at all I would say. They are all considered middle eastern. And if you asked the random Joe what that actually was they wouldn’t be able to give an answer
kazinski80@reddit
We don’t really have any kind of common consensus on these things the way other countries might. I’d guess majority would say no, but not an overwhelming majority
baconator_out@reddit
No. I've been trying to figure out exactly who is "white" in my very white-people circles.
Best I can tell, pale-pink skin, generally round eyes of some color other than very dark brown and straight, wavy or curly (but not hyper curly) hair that's some natural color other than dark black. If someone walked in from mars, had 23 chromosomes and those characteristics, I think most people would consider them white.
Belaerim@reddit
Nope.
With one notable exception, Nordic-looking Jesus
___HeyGFY___@reddit
Me myself personally? No.
AddemF@reddit
The exact answer is: Medium white.
iAmPresidentElonMusk@reddit
No.
Son_of_Sophroniscus@reddit
I know some Iranian girls who think of themselves as white. And I would say I agree more or less.
Same with some Latinos. That's why the forms break it down into white (non Latino) and the like.
RoRoRaskolnikov@reddit
I think the short answer is "no but occasionally yes."
In the sense that some people "pass" as white based on appearance/skin color as well as culture/behavior. If you blend in enough, a lot of people will just think you're maybe of Greek or Italian heritage and basically treat you as white. Especially if your speech and cultural practices scan as generically American.
But most of the time, the answer is no.
Chapea12@reddit
No, but on the census forms basically everybody is either white, black, or other for some reason. So then my Lebanese friend and Mexican wife were, at one point, told to check white
FamineArcher@reddit
You called them the same thing most of us call them. Middle Eastern.
On_my_last_spoon@reddit
Ah, see, are we talking the technical categories of “race” or are we talking about the concept of whiteness?
Jazzlike-Equipment45@reddit
Government says yes they are white but to the average person it deppends
MartialBob@reddit
Nope.
Spotukian@reddit
No
shelwood46@reddit
I'd probably ask them what they identify as, on an individual basis.
SeaF04mGr33n@reddit
No, but the US Census counts them as white.
Quix66@reddit
No. I think more Middle Eastern and Persian/Iranian.
Lockheed_CL-1201@reddit
Only for crime statistics
hunkerd0wn@reddit
No, I view them as "middle eastern"
RadioRoosterTony@reddit
Not really. There's a spectrum of skin color of Middle Eastern people, and some may look somewhat white, like Armenians, but generally, "White" refers to people of European descent.
I guess if someone called Sona Movsesian white, I'd have a hard time objecting, but Armenia is kind of in between the Middle East and Europe.
AntisocialHikerDude@reddit
No, they're "middle-eastern". Whites are European.
Guinnessron@reddit
I personally view them as middle eastern and closer to Indian or Pakistani than white. Though I do recognize many do look closer to white. Iranian or Turkish for example sometimes appear white-ish to me but not always.
adifferentcommunist@reddit
Sometimes but not always. It depends on a combination of how they look, how much money they have, and how well they speak English, as well as how strictly the American in question is policing whiteness.
corro3@reddit
legally yes they are classed as white. socially no.
NewUsernameStruggle@reddit
No, they’re Asian.
11twofour@reddit
Some probably think of themselves as white, some probably don't. Personally, I think they're white.
franky_riverz@reddit
On paper, yes. There's apparently a messed up reason it's like that but no. We call them middle eastern
Vegetable-Star-5833@reddit
No, they are middle eastern
ThisPostToBeDeleted@reddit
No, they’re middle eastern and Americans are pretty racist to them a lot of the time.
YoungKeys@reddit
Depends. A lot of them can “pass” as Caucasian. Like I don’t think anyone refers to Gigi Hadid or Freddie Mercury as anything but white for example
vinyl1earthlink@reddit
If you aren't obviously of African or Asian descent, speak English well, and seem like middle class or above, then you are part of the general population, no particular race. Is that white? Who knows.
ALoungerAtTheClubs@reddit
Maybe on certain census forms, but "Middle Eastern" is a pretty distinct group.
Lycaeides13@reddit
Never in my experience (I live in a fairly diverse area)
ReturnByDeath-@reddit
Definitely not.
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