I strongly encourage to have an attorney discuss the training contract details. Some will allow you to break it if you lose your medical, but what if you lose it 4 years and 11 months after signing it? I don’t have any interest in joining either so it doesn’t matter to me, but that training contract is a huge deterrent to me. I don’t know what the penalty is but 75K for some of these contracts are ridiculous IMO. Good luck!
How old are you, kids, married, have firm roots some where? I live West Coast and am hoping for Skywest so as not to commute. Congrats on having options. Hope it works out for you.
Pros and cons to both. I’m assuming since you’re asking about Chicago, bases aren’t an issue. I think the no training contract at Envoy is a massive upside and would almost make the decision for me. OO is definitely a bigger company and has more diverse bases if that matters to you, but if you went to OO you’d probably get put on the CRJ anyway and you can say goodbye to diverse flying and say hello to 5 legs day doing turns to SBN and MKE all day. Plus having ALPA is a big upside in my opinion as well. At the end of the day, they’re both regionals and you can’t go wrong with either if your goal is to build time and get to the majors.
Sweet, more the direction I was hoping this thread would go lol. Given how murky the economic future looks, I wonder if it'd be better to be at a more financially secure company. I know OO is bigger, but MQ is backed by AA so I have no idea if that makes a difference. I also know MQ is hiring a lot of folks despite the uncertainty so they must be picking up a lot of flying. It's a tough decision lol.
I’m at one of the other AA WO’s. We are hiring a lot too. It’s great I keep getting bought off my trips so people can do IOE. I don’t work for another 2 weeks 😂.
Envoy is probably the best AA WO and I don’t think they’re going anywhere. Envoy is almost 100% the best choice. You could definitely get to DAL or UA sooner at envoy. Probably not AA though. Although flow probably takes the same-ish amount of time as fulfilling your OO contract would take…
I can’t really think of a compelling reason to go OO unless the bases are better for you (still wouldn’t do it for me I’d commute) or if you get a much sooner class date at OO and you’re worried about passing up your OO class and then envoy cancelling before you start class.
Both are reasonably economically sound. OO has always tended to be financially secure, and I doubt MQ is going anywhere as long as AA is around. Unless you have your class date coming up with OO and no word from MQ, I'd go with the one that doesn't make you sign a 5 year contract.
You’ll have a union, SkyWests student council is absolutely useless
No contract - at OO you’ll owe 80k if you leave or get fired for ANY reason (and you won’t have a union to back you)
Guaranteed to fly the E175 - not in terms of shiny jet syndrome, but rather that you won’t be force upgraded to a different airplane and lose your base possibly forever
Flow to AA in your back pocket
Only metered by AA unlike you getting metered by everyone at SkyWest
The biggest two by far though IMO are the contract and the union
Range rover gets its. There isn’t a single reason in this case to go with OO over Envoy besides some made up cool aide about OO somehow having a magic key to turning CFI’s into jet pilots that envoy.
Yeah. Sadly OO isn’t a strong case these days with that contract. I cannot stress enough how big of an issue it is. 80k non pro rated for leaving or getting fired with no union to back you. Not to mention because of the contract any kind of leverage OO pilots had is now gone and the 2026 contract will likely be a blood bath
Envoy 100%. Literally the ONLY reason I could see choosing SkyWest is if you could live in base with them and not envoy. Personally that wouldn’t even do it for me, I’d commute to envoy to avoid the contract. That’s just me though, others will probably say I’m crazy. All I know is commuting so I don’t hate it too much lol
I agree with most everyone else and I'd say Envoy. No contract, less "metering", a union, good airplane. As far as Envoy's training I've never really heard anything good or bad about it but they have turned plenty of CFI's into jet pilots (just like all the regionals). As long as you're at least an average CFI or whatever type of pilot you are now, you should be fine to get through their training program. I don't really know what types of trips they fly out of ORD so unfortunately I can't help you there.
Now if Skywest offers you a class date months before Envoy does then that's something to consider, but the contract for me would be a really large deterrent if I had another option without one. Regardless of what the outlook looks like this week I wouldn't want to be stuck there for 5 years. Things can change on a dime. In 2020 everyone thought the airline industry wasn't going to hire for a decade and then 2 years later they couldn't hire enough people.
Definitely get that, and that is my number one deciding factor but it would still be cool to get a pulse on the cultural differences between both operations. I don't want to make the wrong decision and curse myself 20 years from now...
Nope, but I wonder how much of a difference it makes if I'll likely be at a regional for five years anyway (which is the length of SkyWest's contract).
Once you get significant jet time, doors open to places you wouldn’t expect. A contract makes it much harder to be flexible and move. A pilot group indentured under a contract is also a pilot group that management can squeeze for their benefit.
You may find after a year or two you can change companies or find another niche in aviation you like more. Try to avoid the contract.
Who says you’d be there for five years? Just saw another thread where a SkyWest FO got a CJO at delta with 0 TPIC. If you have the opportunity to not be an indentured employee, that’d be what I’d suggest, all thugs being equal.
20 years from now you’re not going to give a single crap about whatever cultural differences two regionals might have had and what you “missed out” on.
Envoy has a flow right? My understanding is you are supposed to get a slot into AA with that after an indeterminate amount of time? I don’t believe Skywest has anything similar. Skywest also has a pretty predatory contract that will most definitely limit your options. Simply because of that contract, I’d choose Envoy. That flow is a bonus.
Don’t go with a contract when you have the option not to. But in this case, I would almost encourage you to take a contract for envoy over none at OO. They are nearly identical in training and how you are treated but Envoy has a union, has a flow, and doesn’t have the restrictions of being everyone else’s feeder (let’s say you want UA or DAL, they will throttle you at OO but hire you early out of envoy to steal you away). But yeah, choosing to go with their contract is crazy when you have the option to go to Envoy and live in an envoy base.
Go to Envoy, there's no reason to consider SkyWest. You don't get a training contract and you have a guaranteed job at AA sitting in your back pocket. Plus you don't have to worry about that "oh no, I'm an e175 FO and they're going to make me learn the CRJ as a captain because I hit 1000 hours" complaint that's been making the rounds.
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey ya'll, tried to do some research on this topic but found some pretty dated threads. I'm in a very blessed position to have two CJOs and live in a city that's a base for both OO and MQ. I know the general consensus right now is go wherever you get a class date first, but I wanted to go a bit deeper to help make a big decision. The pilot groups at both airlines seem awesome, which makes this hard lol!
I've heard some amazing things about SkyWest's training department and how good they are at turning CFIs into good, competent jet pilots. My friends there tell me that being a reserve FO in base is fantastic (although I suppose this could apply to Envoy too), and while most don't have great things to say about the management, they seem to be a very well-run company overall. The downsides would of course be the training contract, the lack of a union, and metering to the majors. I'm not sure if the last point is overblown or not in the current environment since I'll probably be at a regional for a while anyway, so I wanted to hear some thoughts from you guys.
On the other hand, the lack of a training contract is huge pull towards Envoy for me. Metering to AA doesn't really matter to me since that wouldn't be where I want to end up. I'm wondering though, how is their training program, and how are the trips out of ORD? I've heard offhand that the flying is better than SkyWest but it would be nice to get some real perspective.
El_bori_787@reddit
I strongly encourage to have an attorney discuss the training contract details. Some will allow you to break it if you lose your medical, but what if you lose it 4 years and 11 months after signing it? I don’t have any interest in joining either so it doesn’t matter to me, but that training contract is a huge deterrent to me. I don’t know what the penalty is but 75K for some of these contracts are ridiculous IMO. Good luck!
BalladOfALonelyTeen@reddit
The SkyWest contract has provisions for loss of medical.
hanjaseightfive@reddit
Why pay an attorney to look over a contract you can avoid signing by going to a different company?
Bluzzard@reddit
How old are you, kids, married, have firm roots some where? I live West Coast and am hoping for Skywest so as not to commute. Congrats on having options. Hope it works out for you.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
OO if you want to go to AA. Envoy if you want to go to DL/UA.
MachoTurnip@reddit
I share a crash pad with a couple skywest pilots and they hate it. They keep telling me how lucky I am to be at Envoy
pooserboy@reddit
Pros and cons to both. I’m assuming since you’re asking about Chicago, bases aren’t an issue. I think the no training contract at Envoy is a massive upside and would almost make the decision for me. OO is definitely a bigger company and has more diverse bases if that matters to you, but if you went to OO you’d probably get put on the CRJ anyway and you can say goodbye to diverse flying and say hello to 5 legs day doing turns to SBN and MKE all day. Plus having ALPA is a big upside in my opinion as well. At the end of the day, they’re both regionals and you can’t go wrong with either if your goal is to build time and get to the majors.
anarchicspider@reddit (OP)
Sweet, more the direction I was hoping this thread would go lol. Given how murky the economic future looks, I wonder if it'd be better to be at a more financially secure company. I know OO is bigger, but MQ is backed by AA so I have no idea if that makes a difference. I also know MQ is hiring a lot of folks despite the uncertainty so they must be picking up a lot of flying. It's a tough decision lol.
Any_Subject_2966@reddit
I’m at one of the other AA WO’s. We are hiring a lot too. It’s great I keep getting bought off my trips so people can do IOE. I don’t work for another 2 weeks 😂.
Envoy is probably the best AA WO and I don’t think they’re going anywhere. Envoy is almost 100% the best choice. You could definitely get to DAL or UA sooner at envoy. Probably not AA though. Although flow probably takes the same-ish amount of time as fulfilling your OO contract would take…
I can’t really think of a compelling reason to go OO unless the bases are better for you (still wouldn’t do it for me I’d commute) or if you get a much sooner class date at OO and you’re worried about passing up your OO class and then envoy cancelling before you start class.
BerMalBerIst@reddit
Both are reasonably economically sound. OO has always tended to be financially secure, and I doubt MQ is going anywhere as long as AA is around. Unless you have your class date coming up with OO and no word from MQ, I'd go with the one that doesn't make you sign a 5 year contract.
RangeRover-@reddit
Envoy for many reasons:
The biggest two by far though IMO are the contract and the union
ObeyYourMasterr@reddit
Let me introduce you to Chicago Envoy ops in terms of “175 aircraft”
hanjaseightfive@reddit
You think OP can’t get glued to a crj200 all day without an APU at OO?
RangeRover-@reddit
ORD is also a large 200 base for OO, I’d take the most clapped out 170 over a 200 any day.
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
Range rover gets its. There isn’t a single reason in this case to go with OO over Envoy besides some made up cool aide about OO somehow having a magic key to turning CFI’s into jet pilots that envoy.
iflyfreight@reddit
Yeah. Sadly OO isn’t a strong case these days with that contract. I cannot stress enough how big of an issue it is. 80k non pro rated for leaving or getting fired with no union to back you. Not to mention because of the contract any kind of leverage OO pilots had is now gone and the 2026 contract will likely be a blood bath
urykk@reddit
If given the opportunity to not sign a training contract, why in the world would you?
Any_Subject_2966@reddit
Envoy 100%. Literally the ONLY reason I could see choosing SkyWest is if you could live in base with them and not envoy. Personally that wouldn’t even do it for me, I’d commute to envoy to avoid the contract. That’s just me though, others will probably say I’m crazy. All I know is commuting so I don’t hate it too much lol
mitch_kramer@reddit
I agree with most everyone else and I'd say Envoy. No contract, less "metering", a union, good airplane. As far as Envoy's training I've never really heard anything good or bad about it but they have turned plenty of CFI's into jet pilots (just like all the regionals). As long as you're at least an average CFI or whatever type of pilot you are now, you should be fine to get through their training program. I don't really know what types of trips they fly out of ORD so unfortunately I can't help you there.
Now if Skywest offers you a class date months before Envoy does then that's something to consider, but the contract for me would be a really large deterrent if I had another option without one. Regardless of what the outlook looks like this week I wouldn't want to be stuck there for 5 years. Things can change on a dime. In 2020 everyone thought the airline industry wasn't going to hire for a decade and then 2 years later they couldn't hire enough people.
ObeyYourMasterr@reddit
Lately, we’ve picked up a lot of former air whisky flying which now consists of 5 leg days doing the Lansing and Appleton express.
futurepilot32@reddit
Absolutely go to Envoy. If you go to OO you’ll be hardcore metered by every legacy and won’t have a fighting chance of getting to any of them.
JJAsond@reddit
In this economy, whoever hires you first.
anarchicspider@reddit (OP)
Definitely get that, and that is my number one deciding factor but it would still be cool to get a pulse on the cultural differences between both operations. I don't want to make the wrong decision and curse myself 20 years from now...
MeatServo1@reddit
Does envoy have a contract?
anarchicspider@reddit (OP)
Nope, but I wonder how much of a difference it makes if I'll likely be at a regional for five years anyway (which is the length of SkyWest's contract).
NuttPunch@reddit
Once you get significant jet time, doors open to places you wouldn’t expect. A contract makes it much harder to be flexible and move. A pilot group indentured under a contract is also a pilot group that management can squeeze for their benefit.
You may find after a year or two you can change companies or find another niche in aviation you like more. Try to avoid the contract.
MeatServo1@reddit
Who says you’d be there for five years? Just saw another thread where a SkyWest FO got a CJO at delta with 0 TPIC. If you have the opportunity to not be an indentured employee, that’d be what I’d suggest, all thugs being equal.
oranges1cle@reddit
You don’t know that. Don’t do anything that restricts your freedom of movement unless it’s your only option. Go with the ALPA carrier, hands down.
NuttPunch@reddit
20 years from now you’re not going to give a single crap about whatever cultural differences two regionals might have had and what you “missed out” on.
NuttPunch@reddit
Envoy has a flow right? My understanding is you are supposed to get a slot into AA with that after an indeterminate amount of time? I don’t believe Skywest has anything similar. Skywest also has a pretty predatory contract that will most definitely limit your options. Simply because of that contract, I’d choose Envoy. That flow is a bonus.
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
Don’t go with a contract when you have the option not to. But in this case, I would almost encourage you to take a contract for envoy over none at OO. They are nearly identical in training and how you are treated but Envoy has a union, has a flow, and doesn’t have the restrictions of being everyone else’s feeder (let’s say you want UA or DAL, they will throttle you at OO but hire you early out of envoy to steal you away). But yeah, choosing to go with their contract is crazy when you have the option to go to Envoy and live in an envoy base.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
Go to Envoy, there's no reason to consider SkyWest. You don't get a training contract and you have a guaranteed job at AA sitting in your back pocket. Plus you don't have to worry about that "oh no, I'm an e175 FO and they're going to make me learn the CRJ as a captain because I hit 1000 hours" complaint that's been making the rounds.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey ya'll, tried to do some research on this topic but found some pretty dated threads. I'm in a very blessed position to have two CJOs and live in a city that's a base for both OO and MQ. I know the general consensus right now is go wherever you get a class date first, but I wanted to go a bit deeper to help make a big decision. The pilot groups at both airlines seem awesome, which makes this hard lol!
I've heard some amazing things about SkyWest's training department and how good they are at turning CFIs into good, competent jet pilots. My friends there tell me that being a reserve FO in base is fantastic (although I suppose this could apply to Envoy too), and while most don't have great things to say about the management, they seem to be a very well-run company overall. The downsides would of course be the training contract, the lack of a union, and metering to the majors. I'm not sure if the last point is overblown or not in the current environment since I'll probably be at a regional for a while anyway, so I wanted to hear some thoughts from you guys.
On the other hand, the lack of a training contract is huge pull towards Envoy for me. Metering to AA doesn't really matter to me since that wouldn't be where I want to end up. I'm wondering though, how is their training program, and how are the trips out of ORD? I've heard offhand that the flying is better than SkyWest but it would be nice to get some real perspective.
Any insights are hugely appreciated. Thanks!
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