Which figures are considered the biggest national traitors in your nation's history?
Posted by G3nocidal_Serb@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 146 comments
For Serbia, they have to be Milošević and Vučić. According to folk tradition, Vuk Branković was denounced as a national traitor, however this theory has largely been debunked by historians.
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
Essad Pashe Toptani
HumanMan00@reddit
Cuz he liked Serbs?
5picy5ugar@reddit
No. He liked himself better. Was only interested in his own well-being and made some deals with Serbia, France and Britain to back him up as King of Albania and in return he would allow Serbia and Greece to some territorial claims. Before he was an devoted Ottoman and did as they pleased. Later when the Ottomans fell and Albanians won their independence he got somehow included in the 1st Goverment of Albania. In the Balkan Wars he caused a lot of trouble. Long story short he was a remnant of the Feudal system (he had lots of people working for him being from a respected Albanian feudal House). He didn’t have any real alliance but the one to himself. His nephnew would become King of Albania and you know him by the name King Zog. He got whacked by an Albanian patriot (who in turn was paid from other patriots and possibly the Goverment of Albania in secret to go and get rid of him)
CmdrJemison@reddit
He was only interested in his own well being? Hmm Sounds like a normal guy.
TheTosker@reddit
He is even buried in the serbian cemetery in Paris
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
Because he fought against the Albanian interest. Opposed the Albanian state. Signed treaties with the Kingdom of Serbia (that had just massacred and ethnically cleansed thousands of Albanians), in which he agreed to allow Serbian troops into Albanian territory in exchange for individual gains. Basically an opportunist that worked against his people.
G3nocidal_Serb@reddit (OP)
Truly a great, intelligent and honorable man.
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
5picy5ugar@reddit
😄😄😄
alpidzonka@reddit
I disagree that Milošević and Vučić are considered the greatest traitors, really. Maybe some day they might be, but not at the moment.
Anyway, depends on who you ask but I'd say Dimitrije Ljotić is a safe bet. If nothing else, then because his SDK was rounding people up for the Kragujevac massacre.
Sarkotic159@reddit
Would anyone today consider Colonel Dimitrijevic and the May Coup conspirators to be traitors? Or more likely to view the Obrenovich dynasty that way?
alpidzonka@reddit
I think people see the Obrenović dynasty post-1878 as heading a sort of de facto puppet state of Austria-Hungary. I don't think they'd call them traitors per se, especially since Milan did expand the territories of Serbia to the south.
As for the May Coup, I'm still waiting to find conclusive evidence that Dimitrijević was at the core of this plot. Seemingly, the people who ended up purged as part of the "plotters' question" (zavereničko pitanje) didn't even include him. There's conspiracy theorists who see Unification or Death as some kind of freemason conspiracy or something like that, and maybe they'd label them as traitors. This is mostly just a fringe part of the far right.
The less fringe part of the far right tries to roleplay as Unification or Death, for instance at these current protests someone printed their stamp as a flag and it was usually carried around in combo with other hardcore nationalist symbolism. Not because of the May Coup specifically though, I think it's mostly because they trained these sort of terrorists who would enter North Macedonia and try to rile up the masses.
Sarkotic159@reddit
Why thank you old boy.
Cringe lol. Surely they must see Nikola Pashich in a negative light then?
Pretty_Ad4908@reddit
SDK only rounded up Jews but they still were executing human beings who lived side by side with the Serbs. Judging collaborators is always complicated, they were trying to not make the position of the occupied country any worse but they still sided with the occupators
alpidzonka@reddit
No, they definitely participated in Kragujevac. I think the modern cope for that episode, that you'll often hear from Neo-Nazis, is that they tried to pull Serbs out of the line for the firing squad and substitute them with Roma. Even if that's true, they still actively participated in a pretty gruesome massacre not only aiding an occupying force, not only targeting minorities or communists, not only killing Serbs directly, but also civilian Serbs some of which were high school students.
As for also generally being the main perpetrators of the Holocaust in Serbia, I think most people see that as highly negative but wouldn't necessarily label it treason or betrayal. Probably because we extend less empathy towards said minorities, i.e you're not a traitor to "us" (Serbs) if you're only targeting Jews. That's actually why I specified the Kragujevac massacre in particular.
kaubojdzord@reddit
Not true, SDK rounded up Serbs frequently including at Kragujevac as well as Romani. Judging collaborators is easy actually, unless you want to extend that 'nuance' to Ustaše.
Serboslovak@reddit
Dimitrije Ljotić and Milan Nedić tried to save country, while Vučić gave every part of our land to forgein powers.
alpidzonka@reddit
Permaban, no Nazi collaborator apologia on the sub.
Yapanomics@reddit
Traitor!
Bilbolbu@reddit
Oh, fuck off. While I somewhat get why you'd say Nedić (still think he was a traitor and quisling) but Ljotić was a Nazi dick-sucker through and through.
kaubojdzord@reddit
Saving country by being agents of genocidal occupation, makes sense.
Neradomir@reddit
Nedić and Ljotić saved Serbia from... Serbs? Because that's who they killed the most
BDP-SCP@reddit
In Istria depends on which side you're looking or taking, on one side could be Nazario Sauro, Isrian and pro Italian, as an Austrian citizen he was to serve in the Austrian navy but left and joined the Italian side during WW1, later was captured and hanged for high reason. For the Italians he's a hero.
Then you have Vladimir Gortan, partcipated in what you would call a terrorist attack, on person was killed and the arrested and later executed. For the Italians he was a traitor, for the Croats and Sloveians he's a hero. Depeneds which side you're taking.
Legal_Mastodon_5683@reddit
I'm sorry, no. Gortan is not a traitor for Italians vs hero Croats/Slovenes but a traitor for fascists and hero for antifascist. Don't forget that 40 000 Italians fought on the antifascist side along with Croats and Slovenes in Istria.
Flaviphone@reddit
Everyone😇
Hagibest@reddit
Really? Vlad Țepeș, Mihai Viteazul, Ștefan cel Mare, Mircea cel Bătrân, Avram Iancu, Carol I, Mihai I, Nicolae Iorga, Radu Negru
Stelist_Knicks@reddit
I swear people don't know that for a while he was siding with the Hungarian empire over the Romanian empire
Hagibest@reddit
True bro but tbf he gets a pass for me still as he did it to regain his throne and also to ally temporarily against the Ottomans. Still an important figure for us historically
Economy-Pen-2271@reddit
Another one is Vlad the usurper who betrayed Mircea cel batran for ottomans,but Radu cel frumos is more memorable
herakababy@reddit
Georgi Dimitrov - prime contributor to the soviet assfucking we had for atleast 50 years and could be argued even today we suffer from his actions.
Bogdan Filov - aligning Bulgaria with the Germany during WW2
Dimitar Obshti/Pop Krastyo - biggest contributors to the capture of our national hero Vasil Levski by the Ottomans and arguably delaying our liberation.
Tsar Simeon II aka Simeon Saxe-coburg-gotha - last tsar who was exiled by the commies and returned in the 21st century to be elected as prime minister. Whether due to bad intentions, corruption, greed or just due to incompetence is responsible for shaping the current political landscape and bringing into power people like Boyko Borisov and Delyan Peevski. They on the other hand are credited for the trash living standards and bad perception of Bulgarians in Europe, to put it mildly.
Also there are plenty of greekomans andarts and serbomans through the years that have directly or indirectly fucked on a smaller scale the common bulgarian for insignificant personal gain, piss on their memory!
Beginning-Hawk3119@reddit
Could you elaborate how Simeon is responsible for shaping the political landscape full of corruption? I have been trying to find some info about his government but nothing much is said except that he took his royal real estate back and his 800 day plan. I would be really grateful if you could say some sources i could check or some facts.
herakababy@reddit
Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (known as Simeon II when he was Tsar as a child) came back to Bulgaria in the late 1990s after decades of exile. In 2001, he formed a political party, National Movement Simeon II (NDSV), and surprisingly won the parliamentary elections, becoming Prime Minister.
Simeon appointed Boyko Borissov as Chief Secretary of the Ministry of Interior (i.e., top cop) in 2001. At the time, Borissov was not a politician — he was known as a bodyguard (famously for Todor Zhivkov and later Simeon himself) and had a reputation for toughness. As Chief Secretary, Borissov gained massive popularity by presenting himself as an anti-mafia, law-and-order figure — but it was Simeon’s decision to give him that very powerful and visible platform.
The Foundations of Oligarchic Corruption: Simeon’s government privatized a lot of state-owned enterprises, often under shady conditions. This period saw the birth of many of Bulgaria’s oligarchs. Instead of fostering a real competitive market, key sectors (energy, construction, media, etc.) were captured by well-connected groups. Simeon’s focus was on quick EU integration (which Bulgaria achieved later in 2007), but this ignored deep judicial and institutional reforms, allowing corruption to take root even deeper.
When Borissov later founded his own party, GERB (around 2006), he already had a hero image and close ties to the police, parts of the judiciary, and certain business circles. GERB’s style of governance later replicated and perfected the corrupt practices that became common during and after Simeon’s time.
In short: Simeon gave Borissov his start by making him a national figure, and the rushed privatizations, weak judicial reforms, and tolerance for shady business during Simeon’s government created the environment where corruption became normal. Borissov just learned from it — and then made it even worse when he seized power.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06SOFIA647_a.html https://www.britannica.com/topic/National-Movement-for-Simeon-II https://youtu.be/y42Rull0hH8?si=rwDnzgUiJ3dRgGpo
pdonchev@reddit
You forgot Ferdinand. But yeah.
Flimsy_Relief8238@reddit
I wouldn't say Ferdinand was a traitor. He was overly ambitious, delusional, and a terrible ruler, though.
HumanMan00@reddit
Greekomana and Serbomans?
herakababy@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grecomans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbomans
HumanMan00@reddit
Ohh, ok.. thats weird.. so these are pejorative names for people who didnt like Bulgaria as a uni-ethnic state?
GSA_Gladiator@reddit
Georgi Dimitrov
king-in-exile@reddit
The only correct answer.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Isn't he the guy that kept couping Bulgaria?
ZetMirzet@reddit
It the recent history, Fikret Abdić. When Bosnia and Herzegovina was brutally attacked by neighbouring countries, he created an autonomous region where he collaborated with them.
measure_@reddit
where to start...
ARTR0N@reddit
Tayyip Erdogan lol
mr_ignatis@reddit
I am afraid that you are not going to be with us until tomorrow 😔🫡
MoscaMosquete@reddit
I mean isn't he an Georgian spy?
Thus-i-speak@reddit
Erdoganopoulos is not a Turkish national traitor he is the BEST GREEK SPY THAT EVER LIVED!
G3nocidal_Serb@reddit (OP)
I have great respect for Mr. Erdogan!
Low-Bowler-9280@reddit
What is it that Erdogan did that you respect him for? :)
Yapanomics@reddit
He destroyed Turkey
Darth-Vectivus@reddit
Probably because he ruined Turkey?
fyate@reddit
due to he ruined the turkey right?
sewingissues@reddit
The folk tradition of it being Vuk Branković is the answer, since no national myth is actually historically accurate.
Milošević doesn't have a consensus for this if being honest. Vučić will be forgotten within a year after his term. Someone mentioned Ljotić, though he has the same issue as the latter (lack of relevance).
Apart from the myth, while I believe that it should be Pašić, it will likely be someone like Milan Nedić.
Kitsooos@reddit
Nanakos. An Arvanite warlord, who during the (mostly) Greek War of Independence sided with the Ottomans.
He went around and terrorised the Christian populations, trying to force them to stop the rebelion and convert to Islam.
Affectionate_Sea_984@reddit
Hamza Kastrioti (Skanderbeg’s nephew) and Esad Pashë Toptani.
Kitsooos@reddit
Who would ever trust a man named "Hamza" ?
undecidedusername420@reddit
Recently, Fikret Avdić for being allied to Republika Srpska against his own people through Autonomous Republic of Western Bosnia. In Ottoman times, Ali-paša Rizvanbegović for being against Bosnian uprising led by Kapetan Husein Gradaščević aka Zmaj od Bosne
Zulfiqarrr@reddit
For me, in recent history probably Horthy, Szálasi, Rákosi and Orbán comes to mind.
undecidedusername420@reddit
Horty? Really, why?
I don’t know much about him but he sure sounded good compared to Szalasi
Zulfiqarrr@reddit
He bowed to Hitler, sent the completely unprepared 2nd Hungarian army (not to mention the country itself given the pathetic war economy it had) to the Don front, did nothing against the anti-jewish laws continously implemented since the 20's, could've prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of hungarian jews which he obviously did not, and ultimately paved the way to the Arrow Cross (Nyilas) Party. The germans manipulated him, possibly killed his son in an "air accident" on the front, and when he had enough of it all, SS troops invaded and took Buda castle, toppling the government.
Desperate-Care2192@reddit
So pretty much everybody who mattered.
ballzstreetwets@reddit
Can anyone translate this from a song of Dionysis Savopoulos that explains exactly what Balkan is. "Εδώ είναι Βαλκάνια, δεν είναι παιξε γέλασε" That says it all.
NBGst@reddit
Pavelić and Tito.
Desperate-Care2192@reddit
Lol, how did Tito betrayed Croatia?
NBGst@reddit
Good question.
He was born as Croat/Slovene into a devout Roman Catholic family. It’s sad that he had the guts to be responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent Croats at Bleiburg, who were brutally massacred without any right to defend themselves. His regime tried to destroy everything related to Catholicism and Croatian national identity. His puppets even poisoned Blz Cardinal Stepinac, who refused to schism from Rome and create a “Yugoslavian Catholic Church.”
There’s a phenomenal book if you can understand Croatian by Mons. Dr. Juraj Batelja called Communist Persecution and Torture of Bl. Aloysius Stepinac. Under Tito, the Yugoslav regime was responsible for the brutal massacres of dozens of Herzegovinian Franciscan friars.
I could go on forever about how Yugoslav soldiers brutally beat my great-grandfather three times just because he had the same name as a ustasha who escaped their village after 1945 — or how they curb-stomped my great-grandmother because she didn’t know where her brother was, after he was accused of being a ustasha by some random person. (He disappeared in the 1940s.)
Desperate-Care2192@reddit
Damn dude. Most people killed at Bleiburd were fascists soldiers, they were not innocent. How on earth did his regime tried to destroy Croatian national identity? Thats a straight up lie. Catholic identity is universal and shouldnt have nothing to do with any nation. Even tho catholic church in Croatia did support nationalism. That brings us to Stepinca. Who was nazi supporter and collaborator during WWII and that was his biggest crime.
What where those friars doing during and after the war?
But that was all croatian internal conflict. Those Yugoslav soldiers were likely Croats themselfs. There was hyteria at the end of the war, but that was because of how brutal Ustashe regime was.
NBGst@reddit
What?
There were fascists soldiers, of course — but majority of people there were innocent. Most soldiers either escaped to Latin America or Australia or eventually flipped hats in 1945.
I dare you to prove anything related to Stepinac you expressed, because this is a straight up a lie you probably heard by TikTok wannabe historians.
Tito and his communist doctrine saw religion as an opium of society and they thought that the nation would be “murdered” if they succeed in destroying the religion. Something even said by Vjera Andrijić the oldest member of the partisans that committed the massacre of friars.
Desperate-Care2192@reddit
If they were innocent, they would not be there. Why woud innocent civilians end up in Austria? Many high ranking officers abondend their soliders and escaped to Latam and Australia, but regular soldiers were captuered in Austria and Slovenia. Im not saying they deserved to be killed, but they were not innocent. And I still dont see how is that "betrayal of Croatia" since Croats were fighting on both sides of that conflict.
I mean he was a head of Catholic church at the time when regime was clerofascist, that should be enough. But here is his speech where he celebrates creation of nazi puppet state of NDH https://www.facebook.com/ustasesramota/posts/alojzije-stepinac-ovako-je-poslanicom-do%C4%8Dekao-ndh-i-usta%C5%A1e-neposredno-nakon-%C5%A1to-/1090100299817260/
No, if anything, they were saving nations from religious control. You cant disagree with that, but none of that is treason to Croatia. Catholic and croatian identity are not the same.
Hagibest@reddit
Kurt Gödel pfp, I rate it
NBGst@reddit
I_avoid_taxes@reddit
Ante Pavelić, Franjo Tuđman
HumanMan00@reddit
I thought Croats liked Franjo?
I_avoid_taxes@reddit
Some Croats like Franjo, but overall more educated Croats dont like him, some like me hate him because he completely ruined our country and laid the foundation for corruption and political crime.
Fabulous-Quit-3115@reddit
Ok leave everything else aside what country are you talking about the one he helped create i mean he is not really much of a good guy but come on we wouldnt have a country without him.
I_avoid_taxes@reddit
He didnt help in formation of Croatia. Croatia was formed on blood of people who were at war while Tuđman was destroying country and dividing it among 200 families. Anyone could be first president and outcome would probably be even better
Fabulous-Quit-3115@reddit
Look i really dont like FT mostly because he was communist and I dont like HDZ now but the only thing I respect about him is Helping of creation by leading the nation diplomaticly,motivationaly and by him being great leader in millitary tactics so you dont have to like him i dont like him but to say he is a traitor is fucking delusional.
Traktor are someone like Sanader,Tito and many others
I_avoid_taxes@reddit
Franjo Tuđman was a traitor because his transition from socialism to capitalism enabled politicians to steal, destroyed the country's industry, and allowed the current system of state plunder to continue. Since independence, around 600,000 Croats have emigrated, the industry has been devastated, and a criminal organization remains in power—all because of Tuđman.
As for his so-called military and diplomatic "brilliance," he was foolish and delusional, believing he could annex part of Bosnia to Croatia. He failed, and he bears partial responsibility for the war between Croats and Bosniaks, as weapons that could have been used to defend Croatia were sent to Bosnia instead. He ordered the killing of HOS soldiers (his own people) in Bosnia because they opposed the war, and there’s a story that he prevented the breakthrough to Vukovar.
Overall, he was the worst possible president Croatia could have had in every aspect, totaly ruined country for which we were fighting for 1000 years to gain independence, so yes he was traitor and fool.
Own-Event1622@reddit
I found that the new generation of Croats are very forward looking. They acknowledge the history of the region, but are moving forward. Last time that I was in Croatia, I was very impressed.
pingvin4321@reddit
The biggest threat is Vatican
ShitassAintOverYet@reddit
Vahdettin(Mehmed VI) was the last sultan of the Ottoman Empire. He was planted basically to bend over to Allied powers' demands and make sure a rebellion doesn't happen.
He failed at even that and when Turks won the war he fled to Malta on a British ship. BTW Erdoğan's propagandists want to sell this dude as a hero and sympathetic towards Atatürk's independence movement.
ArtichokeFar6601@reddit
Ephialtes. To this day it's the Greek word for nightmare.
sjr323@reddit
I don’t personally believe Ephialtes even existed.
For me, it is Georgios Tsolakoglou. Leader of Greek collaborationist government during Nazi occupation in WW2.
Thrills-n-Frills@reddit
Bosnia - Izetbegovic and babin sin, mark my words. In Yugoslavia, Bosnia had progressive cities, begrudgingly ugly industrial ones, but with fun nightlife and good music scene. Then you had Mostar which was a Gem, Capljina was chill, now its turbofolk square heads in suv’s and mercs, fucking demented.
Everybody posing as good muslim/catholic/orthodox on religious holidays, the its hustle and dog eat dog world and “ne moze to kod nas”
He didn’t do jail for nothing, UDBA knew what wahabbism and saudi was all about.
But yeah, let’s sell trebevic to the Arabs, why not? Bizmis.
Brilliant-Plan-65@reddit
I’m not fully following, which izetbegovic are you referring to?
Standard-General-522@reddit
Leon Rupnik
GunDaddy67@reddit
Atatürk Erdoğan
Maleficent-Menu1133@reddit
Atatürk?
Vedroops@reddit
Pavelić, not even close.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Yeah thinking of it, he was probably most gruesome one from Balkans known to me. But where you have quality, we have quantity!
Fabulous-Quit-3115@reddit
Tito,sanader and more
Dude_from_Europe@reddit
Amateurs, not a single one of these traitors managed to sell your country’s name in exchange for him getting shady business interests and the country actually not entering the EU
;-)
apo--@reddit
But now it can enter before countries like Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Turkey and Ukraine.
Dude_from_Europe@reddit
Narnia too.
CataphractBunny@reddit
Ante Pavelić, and it's not even a contest. No one comes close to that traitorous bastard and his cronies.
Espace4Eve@reddit
Oberst Alfred Redl
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Ephialtes. He showed the Persians a way to bypass Thermopylae.
Limp_Truck2738@reddit
Fikret Abdić, Ali-paša Rizvanbegović and Smail-aga Čengić. Probably.
StellarAoMing@reddit
I can understand why Fikret, but why do you hate other 2? Bc they were Serbs?
Mrtvoguz@reddit
He hates the other two because they sided with the Ottoman authorities during the Bosnian Uprising 1831
Btw Smail Aga Čengić used to dunk on the Montenegrin Serbs till they killed him in an ambush😭
Limp_Truck2738@reddit
Why the fuck would I hate anyone for being a Serb. I would have to hate my family first then.
StellarAoMing@reddit
Then why Ali Pasha and Smail Aga?
Seems to me they didn't do much wrong, at least nothing any other leader of that time wouldn't do
Limp_Truck2738@reddit
They sided with the Ottomans during the rebellion.
StellarAoMing@reddit
Then you have to include Omer Pasha Latas.
Limp_Truck2738@reddit
He was born in Croatia.
StellarAoMing@reddit
Yes, but some would argue that identity ended when he came to Bosnia. Mihajlo Latas is of no importance to history, who he bacame later matters. In a way, he was "born" in Bosnia. All that happened later is bc of his religious switch in Bosnia.
Limp_Truck2738@reddit
He can't betray Bosnia, as he is not a Bosnian, loyalty was never expected of him. I really don't understand why you're pestering me?
PasicT@reddit
Alija Izetbegovic, not even close.
Statakaka@reddit
The ones in the present
Neat_Selection3644@reddit
Personally, Ion Antonescu.
bokandusan@reddit
Vučić...
JealousBalance9707@reddit
Carol II for România.
In WWI he (the heir to the throne) was the colonel of a regiment on the frontline. More of an honorific position than a real command. Most likely he wasn’t on the actual frontlines. Anyway, with the war going bad his great idea was to abandon the troops and run to Odessa to get married without permission. And that “great love” didn’t last very long. Technically he was a deserter.
Later in the 1920s he finds the true love and gives up the throne for her (sort of a Edward/Wallis Simpson situation). But before of that he gets married again, to a Greek princess that he apparently seduced (the child was born 7 months after the marriage). This didn’t matter, he still abandons the throne.
His father dies, his son becomes king. After 3-4 years he does a coup against his own son, taking advantage of the Great Depression.
While being king he actively works against all parties, dividing them in order to become an autocratic ruler. And he is surrounded by corrupt politicians and businessmen. Also frequently visits prostitutes in Bucharest. And sends his son mother away, not allowing her to raise their son.
He becomes uncontested ruler in 1938; all parties are banned, except one made with him as the leader. Democracy returns to Romania only 61 years later. He ends up with a massacre of the extreme right party, the Iron Guard (which were criminals, but still they should have been judged). After that Romania loses territories to Hungary, Bulgaria and USSR in 1940, weeks after he was proclaiming that we won’t give anything. It turns out that corruption is not a good for buying weapons.
He leaves the country with his mistress and allegedly with a lot of valuables. Lives the rest of his life with her in Spain or Portugal. His son doesn’t want to have anything to do with him.
Spervox@reddit
Slobudin al-Miloshi
Stverghame@reddit
And his student Skander Misliu Vuçiqi
44-47-25_N_20-28-5-E@reddit
Ahahahhahahahah
hardesthardcoregamer@reddit
Non-Balkaner here (so forgive me if I seem ignorant) but why is Milosevic considered a national traitor? From an outsider looking in, it would seem (at least from the Serbian nationalist point of view) that he created a lot of gains for the Serbs. I mean of course I personally dislike him, consider him a war criminal and fascist ultranationalist, but if I were a Serbian nationalist I'd probably be okay with the outcome. Is it just the fact he ripped apart Yugoslavia and forced war?
TheHollowJoke@reddit
Probably Pétain and Laval, although Talleyrand could also earn a spot, not sure how much he’s known compared to the other two though.
Hopeful_Drama_3850@reddit
Vahideddin, the last emperor of the Ottoman Empire, sided with the British Empire who was going to rip apart Turkey and then escaped on a British frigate when Turkey won the Independence War.
Crazy_Rub_4473@reddit
Don't forget Damat Ferit
KhanTheGray@reddit
Last sultan is an easy target for us but to be fair he was just a pawn once the Germans surrendered and Ottoman Empire realized they could not keep fighting everyone. The telegram from Turkish diplomat when Ottoman ally Bulgaria surrendered as well was; “boku yedik” -we ate the shit-So even though Empire managed to pull off the miracle of Gallipoli the army was exhausted, regiments were diminished and ammunition was very low.
When the Turkish high command assessed the situation of the army they quickly realized they were in no state to fight off another massive invasion from now free allied forces, so they decided to accept a humiliating deal. Sultan went along with it.
Could he do more? He could try but the palace boy was no Ataturk, he didn’t have the nerves or cunning of Ataturk, neither the passion.
In a way I believe Ataturk was meant to happen. Ottoman family was far cry from what they were and empire failed to catch up with the times, Industrial Revolution and new ideas.
I blame Enver-Talat-Cemal triumvirate more than Vahdettin, they held the actual power and Enver himself was responsible for greatest fuckups of Turkish history. The man approved the campaign of Sarıkamış where between 40.000 to 80.000 Turkish Soldiers perished, most of them without firing a single bullet to Russians, they froze to death. Army didn’t have winter clothing, Enver knew it he still ordered the operation to go ahead.
His second and greatest failure along with Talat Pasha led to much greater tragedy. Some Turks will disagree with me in this one but there was no need to send tens of thousands of Armenian citizens of Ottoman Empire to exile which was pretty much a death march in winter with no sufficient food, clothing or protection. They were led to frozen steppes to freeze to death or get picked up by bandits, locals or in some cases militia.
Mayors and governers of many towns and cities contacted the palace and asked them to stop this madness, lot of innocent law abiding Armenians who did not even have a single Police record got taken from their beds and met a terrible fate away from what they called home for centuries.
This was on 3 Pashas as well as Sarıkamış.
Thrills-n-Frills@reddit
I never understood the veneration of individuals or families / clans, based on their status or power over one. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the reality of having to bow down to the oppressor or else lose the head, fine, but how do you go on from there to worshipping him/her/them.
Has to be a whisper of reality and grudge when you are alone at night and can’t sleep.
Fuck royals and “the best among us”, privileged yes, connected yes, rich and famous, but do they actually know things on their own engine?
All royal families on planet Earth today look like inbred fucked up creatures, as untochable as they may seem.
KhanTheGray@reddit
Ottoman royal family had been out of touch with reality for a long time. Last sultans had their families enjoy Europe and buy the highest quality of custom made clothing at astronomic prices that could feed impoverished villages in eastern Anatolia for years.
Average Turkish villager was very poor, worked at fields for little money and it was worse for soldiers as they had to serve 10-15 years in archaic and old fashioned Ottoman army that fell behind times, so at any given time thousands of soldiers would be awol from army as it was the only for them to see their families.
Average Ottoman citizen lived a very hard life while royals lived in luxury and wasted peoples money everyday buying things no one would need.
When Ataturk and his friends started their campaign to modernize the country, they were stunned to find average Turk couldn’t read or write because Ottoman schools were jack of all trades master of none medreses that focus on religious studies and taught little bit of math and history at primary school level, not even that.
The literacy rate of country at the time of Sultans were very low, 1 in 5 people were barely literate if I remember right.
Ten years later 4 in 5 people were literate and Turkey was amongst the fastest growing economies in the world because royal family was no more.
Hopeful_Drama_3850@reddit
He could have at the very least not try to go against Atatürk. It's the least he could do. But Atatürk later revealed that he never had any intention to keep him around so I guess he caught on early.
KhanTheGray@reddit
Ataturk as a young and rebellious officer was constantly getting sent to kill zones, to die.
Palace wanted to get rid of him but they didn’t want to do it themselves since it’d look bad on them, they kept sending him to these locations at far away lands that Ottomans had no hope of holding.
What was the point of Ottoman army in Trablus? Or Libya at all? I can understand the desperate attempts to hold holy lands as it had tremendous value for Muslims but Libya?
Lot of valuable Turkish officers perished in Arab deserts, fighting battles that were hopeless.
As for Sultan, he had no spine and not a will power to join or support any afford to reclaim independence.
If he had any self respect he’d take himself out honorably as the last emperor of a dying empire.
Instead of escaping on English ship with bags full of gold that belonged to people.
Hopeful_Drama_3850@reddit
Mustafa Kemal was sent to die on many occasion but somehow he never died. Imagine how scared Vahideddin must have been of him at the time.
And I agree with all of your points. Even if he couldn't do anything he could have still done nothing. Even that would have been more dignified.
m_a_r_k_o@reddit
Aleksandar Vučić and Vuk Branković
Livid_Wind8730@reddit
Fikret Avdic, forced his brother to kill brother
Osuruktanteyyare_@reddit
Enver Paşa
Kenan Evren
Tansu Çiller
These would be my choices after of course the obvious choice
PhoenixDood@reddit
Radu cel frumos, Ieremia Golia, Giorgio Basta, Ion Moțoc, Ion Iliescu, king Carol II, Alexandru Sturza, Mihnea, Constantin Cantacuzino, Alexandru Ipsilanti, steward Crasneș, Petru Aron
L_O_U_S@reddit
Emanuel Moravec in Czechia.
farquaad_thelord@reddit
Esat Pasha Toptani and Hamza Kastrioti
Booty_Gobbler69@reddit
As an American, probably either Aldrich Ames or Edward Lee Howard.
Swaydelay@reddit
The infamous....Hamza Kastrioti. Out of jealousy for Skenderbeg's accomplishments and popularity he defected to the Ottomans.
Legal_Mastodon_5683@reddit
Croatia: Pavelić, by far.
Ribbon7@reddit
Yup
Darth-Vectivus@reddit
Vahdettin (the last Ottoman sultan), Damat Ferit Pasha, İskilipli Atıf
Realistic_Actuary_50@reddit
Everyone is a national traitor, depending on who you ask and what they believe in.
Realistic_Length_640@reddit
Yep
Realistic_Actuary_50@reddit
Especially if you ask people on the street about the period of 1944-1949, or 1965-1974.
Character_Hamster890@reddit
Rhumorsky@reddit
Montenegro:
Sekula Drljevic - He collaborated with Italian and later German occupiers during WWII. Drljevic proclaimed the creation of a Montenegrin puppet state.
Janko Vukotic - Betrayed Petrovic dynasty and as a most prominent figure in Montenegro at the time (King Nikola was in exile) he did nothing to stop forceful unification with Serbia.
golf2-enjoyer-666@reddit
For Bosnia it’s the Izetbegović clan, de facto but not considered (yet)
abki12c@reddit
Tsipras
PlayfulMountain6@reddit
Edi Rama
Albon123@reddit
Artúr Görgei was considered one in the 19th century, but luckily, he is no longer considered that today.
Basically, he was a leading general in our 1848-49 war of independence against the Austrians, and was achieving major successes, even becoming the Minister of War. He was probably one of our greatest generals ever, being responsible for some of our biggest victories.
But after the Austrians called Russia for help, we started massively losing. Our political leader, Lajos Kossuth (who was a sort of governor of an “independent Hungary” he proclaimed, it’s complicated, but that was the title he used) realised that the war was already lost, although he himself didn’t help much, as he often tried to make himself involved in military affairs, which he wasn’t suited for, being a political leader, and mostly just made things worse. After a great defeat in Timisoara, Kossuth resigned and fled the country, making Görgei the “dictator” of the country, who then surrendered two days later. The surrender was blamed on Görgei, and Kossuth abroad made everything he could to portray himself as a great leader and Görgei as a traitor, making this glorified image of him and a romanticized version of history that we would have won if not for Görgei backstabbing us.
This was a common sentiment in the 19th and most of the 20th century, and we still sort of debate how great Kossuth truly was (he is still a national hero for leading our war of independence politically, but now we realise more and more that he made many mistakes, framing Görgei for many of them). But Görgei is luckily recognized now by most as a great general and war hero.
Albon123@reddit
Probably our actual biggest traitor is Ferenc Szálasi, who collaborated with the Germans to overthrow Horthy in October 1944, when he tried to exit WW2. To be fair, at that point, it was already too late, and there was no way we would have gotten out of it scott-free, but Szálasi only brought us even more destruction, 6 more months of German occupation and dictatorship, and of course, sped up the Holocaust, being responsible for most of the Jewish deaths in the country.
nikibg26@reddit
Aleksandar Vučić and Josip Broz Tito.
fyate@reddit
hasan tahsin pasha