Are all medical doctors not addressed as Dr?
Posted by Parking_Champion_740@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 231 comments
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Posted by Parking_Champion_740@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 231 comments
[removed]
Maleficent-Ad-3375@reddit
My heart surgeon was a Mr. Someone old me that it means he's higher than a Dr. I'm not sure how true that is, lol but that's my understanding.
Caris999@reddit
Generally Doctors that make it to the higher ranks of their specialty are Consultants and address as using their pronouns e.g. Mr Smith.
Because your heart surgeon was most likely a consultant surgeon he would be address as Mr. Unlike a rheumatologist consultant who is always a Dr because he doesn’t wield a knife!
Maleficent-Ad-3375@reddit
That's so interesting. I just thought they were all doctors.
Caris999@reddit
I forgot to mention doctors that have done further research and have obtained a PHD are called professors!
Maleficent-Ad-3375@reddit
Ah I did always wonder how they became professors. I'm learning all sorts lol.
collinsl02@reddit
Surgeons in the UK have an odd habit of dropping the "Dr" title - it is indeed a status thing, they consider themselves above mere doctors and there weren't any other titles suitable to their ego so they went back to "Mr".
cette-minette@reddit
At least in the UK, Consultants are addressed as Mr. After qualifying as a Dr, Consultants are then fully trained in a specific area and are registered with the GMC.
WillNotBeAThrowaway@reddit
Specialists are "Mr." until they are trying to book a table somewhere. Suddenly they are more than happy to "sully" themselves with the title "Dr.".
Caris999@reddit
Haha so true!!!!
No-Angle-982@reddit
Tangentially: A common error, in the US at least, is to conversationally address the holder of a Ph.D degree simply as "Doctor" without including the surname (versus, "Dr. [last name]," which is proper for a Ph.D.) Only a physician should be addressed or referred to simply as "doctor."
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
Hm I haven’t encountered anyone just calling someone doctor
No-Angle-982@reddit
I've only heard it on TV talk shows where, for example, the host introduces , e.g., "Dr. Max Smith" (a Ph.D) then asks, "What do think, doctor?" then ends by thanking "Dr. Smith.," all of which is wrong as he's not a physician.
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
I think there’s some controversy even in the US as to whether it’s sort of pretentious to go by “Dr” as a PhD in some cases.
No-Angle-982@reddit
As with "Dr. Jill Biden" (Ph.D), though that controversy was manufactured and partisan.
drbrtsn@reddit
Doctor here. It's a throwback to the days when surgeons weren't required to have a medical degree (think barber-surgeons) so they had to use Mr. The tradition has generally stuck, so if you're in a surgical specialty and have passed your specialist exams, you can use Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss if you prefer. Nothing to do with being a consultant but if you are a junior surgeon and haven't yet passed the surgical exams, it's Dr.
Gynaecology is considered a surgical specialty but for some reason, in Scotland (and N Ireland, I think), you remain a Dr.
I remember the day I passed my exams and proudly went up to the duty roster on the wall and changed my name from Dr to Mr 😂
blamordeganis@reddit
I love this level of pettiness.
Physicians: “Surgeons can’t call themselves ‘Doctor’, because they don’t have medical degrees.”
Surgeons: “Fuck you. We’re going to get medically qualified. And then we’re not going to call ourselves ‘Doctor’ anyway. And we’re going to stop you forgoing the title similarly.”
drbrtsn@reddit
The joke is that the basic medical degree, in the UK anyway, is a double bachelor, not a doctorate, so the title Dr is purely courtesy, unless you go on to get a PhD, MD, etc.
blamordeganis@reddit
Yes, I believe that back in the early days there was some huffiness even about physicians calling themselves “Doctor” immediately on qualification, at least from the more senior members of the profession. (And possibly from Scottish doctors, who traditionally — but no longer, obviously — did take the MD as their first professional degree.)
Super-Hyena8609@reddit
It still slightly annoys me when people suggest people with PhDs aren't "real doctors". It's physicians who aren't real doctors actually!
oxfordfox20@reddit
PhDs are not doctors though.
To be a doctor is to have a profession, to be someone whose highly qualified job is to heal or fix sick or injured people. The honorific title Dr bestowed on people with PhDs is a lovely title, but it doesn’t make you a doctor.
Source: the painfully obvious.
thepioneeringlemming@reddit
The D in PhD literally stands for doctor, since the middle ages it can refer to doctors in various fields.
oxfordfox20@reddit
I’m aware of that.
If you’re a PhD and you say out loud “I’m a doctor” and you’re not a medic, people will rightly think you’re a prick.
By all means declare yourself a ‘doctor of philosophy’ l, ‘doctor of chemistry’, etc. if you must, but that still kind of sounds like ‘I’m a bestselling author” when what you are is an author.
Please, if you have a PhD and want to be liked or respected, never introduce yourself as a doctor, because you’re not.
papayametallica@reddit
For something that’s painfully obvious you have got this the wrong way around. GPs are referred to as ‘doctor’ as a courtesy.
If you have a source to support your assertion I would be happy to hear it.
You can have nurses with MDs. They are Nurse Doctors. You can have people who have two doctorates but they are still only referred to as doctor.
You can have people without a doctorate who teach in the US for example who are called professors. In the UK it is generally required for professors to first have a doctorate and then to be appointed as a professor by an institution of higher education usually because of their contributions to a profession, the institution and an acceptable research profile.
It isn’t straightforward and is full of anachronisms but please feel free to have your own opinion and the confidence to share on social media
oxfordfox20@reddit
In haste because bedtime: what is the academic job you get once you’ve received your PhD? It’s called a post-doc. It’s called a post doc because you’ve received your doctorate, and no one wants to confuse you with a real doctor.
HalfAgony-HalfHope@reddit
Doctor meant teacher originally, from Latin that I can't remember.
A PhD is more a doctor than a medical doctor.
oxfordfox20@reddit
Nope (to your second bit-the etymology is interesting but irrelevant).
In modern, everyday, spoken English, the word doctor means medic, not ‘someone who wrote a long essay once’.
ArchdukeToes@reddit
I had a consultant ophthalmologist once who said two things back to back that really endeared me to him:
I had no idea that brain cancer was even an issue when I was referred but I like people telling me I don’t have it.
Initial_Apprehensive@reddit
I understand and feel that anger all the time kids call me a fake Dr and all
Expensive_Finding_74@reddit
Can we get back to the interrogation Captain Holt.
Bootglass1@reddit
“No! The problem here is that medical practitioners have co-opted the word "doctor". I know we live in a world where anything can mean anything, and nobody even cares about etymolo-!”
coffeedangerlevel@reddit
Apparently that’s a trigger for you
Dear_Tangerine444@reddit
Ok, Dr Geller we get, you’re the real doctor.
Coca_lite@reddit
Ross, this is a hospital. That means something here.
This_Charmless_Man@reddit
It's still a thing. When I was looking at unis about ten years ago, the head of robotics at Plymouth called MDs a "jumped up master's degree"
BeerElf@reddit
And MD is that though. A PhD is a doctorate, the corner of health care I work in, you don't get to use Dr, until you have the certificate for your PhD in your hand!
Surgeons that have the medicine degree, Doctorate and train as surgeons are then known as Miss Mr, Ms or however they style themselves. (as previous poster explains) Nursing is now a Batchelor degree, and I know that they go on to study and gain their Masters in Nursing. This leads me to think that you could be a Dr Nurse Bloggs. If that's what you wanted. I think the newish Associate qualification is a bit vague though. We have them at work and I'm not sure where they are relative to Drs.
RealRhialto@reddit
It’s important to distinguish between a US style MD, and a U.K. style one - they’re very different
The US version is a basic medical qualification, taught in medical schools, the possession of which allows you to register as a doctor and practice medicine. The US alternative is the DO; there are lots of U.K. equivalents depending on university eg MBBS, MB, MB BCh etc
The UK MD is a research degree taken by someone who is already medically qualified, and involves doing original research. It’s similar to a PhD but as most (if not all) UK universities which award it it has a higher status than a PhD.
VolatileAgent42@reddit
Ironically, British surgeons are quite likely to have a higher research degree (ie PhD or MD) as part of their specialist training, particularly in some competitive subspecialisms.
But a surgeon with MB ChB, and a PhD will still eschew the “Dr” honorific.
After-Anybody9576@reddit
Weirder than that, it's actually a master's but is called a bachelor's.
This_Charmless_Man@reddit
The pettiness is also why in the royal navy, submarines have a jolly roger. Back in the day submariners and submarine warfare was considered ungentlemanly and we're called pirates a lot. The submariners decided that they liked that and decided to reclaim it. You can see the collection at the submarine museum in Gosport. HMS Conqueror's one even has a little atomic symbol on it to show it's got a nuclear reactor onboard.
GypsySnowflake@reddit
That is fascinating from an American perspective, as the Dr. title is definitely viewed as a badge of honor here and it would seem very odd for someone to change back to Mr./Mrs./etc.
KiwiAlexP@reddit
I thought that the specialist/surgeon was Mr no matter what the gender of the person is
earlyeveningsunset@reddit
No, female surgeons are usually Ms or Miss (I've never met a Mrs surgeon, they tend to go by Ms).
There are many specialists but only surgical specialitists (having passed the exams) use Mr/Miss; all other doctors use Dr.
KiwiAlexP@reddit
Thanks - learned something new today
Lady_Locket@reddit
We also don't call Vets Dr in the UK, though some Vets have started using it in recent years. It may slowly become the norm, but currently it's still uncommon.
joined_under_duress@reddit
Yes but we are a country where private schools are called Public Schools.
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
Only private schools which were open to all members of the public who could afford the fees, and which were mentioned in the Public Schools Act 1868 based on the Clarendon Commission Report of 1865 are Public Schools. The others are mere fee paying private schools.
Yes, really.
Well, until 1998. But that is another story...
drplokta@reddit
And they are public schools -- they're open to anyone who can pay the fees, rather than being reserved for children of the nobility or the clergy.
joined_under_duress@reddit
Yes but in the US abd Aus they use public schools to mean state comps
Objective-Resident-7@reddit
Oddly, in the hospital setting, Mr is seen as higher, because it is. They know that you're qualified, so if you call yourself Mr, you must be REALLY qualified.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Not really. It just means you're a surgeon rather than a physician, paediatrician, psychiatrist or whatever.
js-mclint@reddit
Yeah but if you believe surgeons are better than other medical specialties (which most surgeons i've met do), it does the job haha
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
This surgeon doesn't!
durtibrizzle@reddit
It’s very much an IYKYK thing - the Misters are setting themselves apart from the junior doctors and GPs, and don’t care what the rest of the world thinks (in their mind the rest of the world just thinks they’re surgeons/consultants/gods anyway).
another-dave@reddit
you sometimes get consultants joking (if someone 'under values' them) "I didn't study so long to be called 'Dr'."
Specific-Map3010@reddit
Surgeons are a level above doctors in this hierarchy, so they revert to 'Mr.' as they are now above such petty things as who has what degree. Their name is now important than their title.
Consider that in the military, historically, officers were 'Mr.' and commissioned and NCOs were always 'private',' sergeant', etc because they weren't gentlemen.
alice_carroll2@reddit
Oh well the guy that giving me a breast reconstruction next week is Mr so let’s hope!!!!!
drbrtsn@reddit
Good luck, hope it goes well!
EFNich@reddit
It may be because women like you to use your doctor name when you're looking at their cooch? I am not letting a Mr look at my vagina unless he has bought me dinner first.
Present_Program6554@reddit
Actually surgeons were gentlemen while common doctors were not.
Successful-Dream2361@reddit
No. Neither of them were gentlemen (meaning members of the gentry), but doctors went to university and had a much social higher status then surgeons who did an apprenticeship and (depending on the time period) were often also barbers (ie hairdressers) as well. Gentlemen (members of the gentry) were very restricted in the professions they were able to pursue and neither medicine nor surgery were options. They could be army officers, clergymen, naval officers, and lawyers at a pinch. And that was it.
TeaAndLifting@reddit
Funny anecdote, but I knew a South African ortho consultant that refused to call himself Mr. Still used the Dr title, because fuck British traditions I guess?
LordAnchemis@reddit
As they say - surgeons before Hunter had no right to be called doctor, whereas those after Hunter had no desire to, as he made gentleman of us all
AcadiaWonderful1796@reddit
Hold on. In America any male can be referred to as Mr. Is this not true in the UK?
drbrtsn@reddit
Indeed, yes, any adult male. And some females too........but that's a whole new topic
AcadiaWonderful1796@reddit
So any male besides male doctors who aren’t surgeons can go by Mr.? That’s bizarre
Redditor274929@reddit
Pretty much yeah. Simply put:
Any man can call himself Mr Any woman can call herself Ms Any married woman can call herself Mrs Any unmarried woman can call herself Miss
All of this assumes they don't meet the requirements for another title (such as a psychiatrist who would be Dr)
Other titles like Dr, Lord etc have other requirements to be able to use those such as having a PhD
Honestly as I type it out I realise it sounds more complicated than it is (and ive ready heavily simplified things) but it's not much different from the usa AFAIK. The main difference is surgeons can drop their doctor title once they pass the relevant exams to become fully qualified surgeons. As previously mentioned, it's just a historical quirk from when surgeons didn't have medical degrees so surgeons didn't have the title "Dr" and it's continued.
TooLittleGravitas@reddit
I was unreasonably annoyed by a recent form which insisted on my selecting between Mr and Ms. I've never used Ms and have used Mrs since getting married at 18 even after divorce. As an adult woman Miss feels wrong and Ms in my mind is associated with feminism.
AcadiaWonderful1796@reddit
In the US any male can go by Mr. and any female can go by Ms. The Mrs./Miss distinction is no longer very common. In a professional setting every woman is Ms. Doctors and PhD holders can go by Dr. if they choose, but if they want to go by Mr. or Ms. there is no reason they can’t.
Traditional_Bison472@reddit
Mate, you need to change your username too!!
drbrtsn@reddit
What's wrong with my (very boring) username? 😟
Traditional_Bison472@reddit
Nothing. It's perfect. Just like you
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
My bank account is still Dr many years after I passed MRCS, as I couldn't be bothered to change it back!
drbrtsn@reddit
Take the FRCS exam and empty your bank account! 😂
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
That was also done many years ago - the exam, anyway.
RainyDayStormCloud@reddit
I think it’s specifically a surgeon thing as historically surgeons weren’t doctors.
cakesforever@reddit
Not just a surgeon thing. Once a hospital doctor becomes a consultant they don't use Dr.
Serious_Much@reddit
This is pure misinformation. Majority of consultants go by doctor, the only exceptions usually are if they become professors
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
All surgeons in the UK use Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs after passing the MRCS exam (at least 6 y ars before becoming a consultant). All other doctors use Dr, unless they have a higher honorific - Professor, as you say, or maybe Sir!
ithika@reddit
You misread - parent didn't say surgeons, they said consultants.
Traditional_Rice_660@reddit
Surgical registrars also go by Mr/Miss/Mrs.
Source: worked in a hospital, mostly in surgical specs for 20 years.
ithika@reddit
Surgical registrars would be … surgeons. It's in the name.
Traditional_Rice_660@reddit
Yes, but the post before said consultants. Which registrars are not.
ithika@reddit
Surgical registrars are necessarily surgeons. Consultants are not necessarily surgeons. It is easily possible for the majority of consultants that parent has worked with to be physicians and not surgeons.
Traditional_Rice_660@reddit
I see. Semantic confusion
Deep_Ad_9889@reddit
Erm… surgical consultants also go by Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms etc….
Duchy2000@reddit
Incorrect
sausageface1@reddit
Not true. After earning professor they want it to be used.
Tall_Pomegranate_285@reddit
Definitely not in the UK. Only surgeons go by Mr/Miss, all other consultants in medical specialties go by Dr. I’ve never heard of anyone who’s not a surgeon drop Dr (unless they’re a Professor and use Prof instead). Source: I worked as a doctor
TeaAndLifting@reddit
I've worked with an A&E Consultant that still uses the title Mr, solely because he passed MRCS.
milly_nz@reddit
Then you have little to do with the medical profession. I sue the NHS. ALL consultants in every profession are entitled to (and usually do) style themselves as Mr/Mrs. Occasionally some will fall back to the Dr. But it’s entirely normal for consultants outside surgical disciplines to use Mr/Mrs.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I am a consultant surgeon and it is ONLY surgeons who revert to Mr/Miss/Ms. This had nothing to do with being a consultant - it occurs when we pass MRCS (the first set of surgical exams, at least 6 years before becoming a consultant).
milly_nz@reddit
Try explaining that to consultants in gastro who aren’t surgeons, then. I don’t make the rules, mate.
Penjing2493@reddit
I call BS.
Maybe they have MRCS and then switched from surgery to gastro? Otherwise this simply isn't true.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Whilst I can't account for every single doctor in the UK, I have been a doctor for well over 20 years and have worked in many departments in lots of hospitals, as well as meeting numerous other doctors at conferences etc. I have NEVER met a UK surgeon (inc O&G) who used Dr or a single other doctor who didn't.
Penjing2493@reddit
Emergency Medicine consultant here - this is complete nonsense.
DrBatmannn@reddit
Actual doctor working in the NHS, this is complete BS. Only surgeons use Mr/Ms etc. Call a medical consultant Mr/Ms and you're en route to a falling out. Every one of them I know introduces themselves and signs off Dr xyz!
blamordeganis@reddit
Then you might want to tell the BMA they got their website wrong https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/international-doctors/life-and-work-in-the-uk/toolkit-for-doctors-new-to-the-uk/doctors-titles-explained
Tall_Pomegranate_285@reddit
Yeah sure you do. You must have missed the “I worked as a doctor” 😂 and in working across hospital specialties (A&E, Acute Medicine, Cardiology, GI, Renal, Diabetes & Endocrine, Elderly Medicine, Stroke, Paediatrics, High Dependency) I never heard any consultant go by “Mr/Miss”. In the professional setting anyway, they probably do go by it outside - I still have Ms on my passport, and always get (non-hospital) letters addressed Ms.
There are a lot of surgical specialties that people maybe don’t realise are classed surgical, those specialists use “Mr/Miss”. And not just consultants either, surgical registrars are entitled to use it once they pass specialist exams.
The defensive condescension while being absolutely wrong is hilarious though.
tiny_rodents@reddit
Do you only sue consultant surgeons, or do you sue GPs and physicians as well?
milly_nz@reddit
Yes, yes, and yes. Nurses and midwives too. I’ve brought claims against most types of practitioners in most fields.
tiny_rodents@reddit
Cheers! I initially doubted you, as I've worked in healthcare for nigh-on 35 years, but really only with surgeons, who nearly all style themselves as Mr/Miss, but very it's interesting to see how things have changed!
Completely unrelated and just out of curiosity, but in your professional experience, is there a group of practitioners would you describe as the most evasive?
Estrellathestarfish@reddit
It hasn't changed, you should doubt them, they are very wrong.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
It hasn't changed. This person is completely wrong about the titles and your experience is spot on.
Estrellathestarfish@reddit
It's not normal for a nonsurgical consultant to use Mr/Ms, it would be highly unusual in a professional setting.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I really hope for the sake of your clients that your legal knowledge is better than your knowledge of how the medical profession works.
peterbparker86@reddit
That isn't true at all.
supertazo1@reddit
That’s Not normally true as far as I’ve seen. Sometimes, but most non-surgical consultants go by Dr
DreadLindwyrm@reddit
Surgeons are professionally "Mr" in the UK, in an interesting case of reverse snobbery.
At one stage doctors were forbidden from being surgeons, with surgeons being heavily looked down on because they were usually barbers as well. When surgeons were professionalised, they collectively retained "Mr" rather than using "Dr".
It's complicated with other specialities, but an oncologist could well be a surgeon, as could a dermatologist.
I'm not familiar with the series though, so I don't know the exact status of the individuals involved.
My2016Account@reddit
The multitude of female surgeons would like a word.
DreadLindwyrm@reddit
Bizarrely, I had a female surgeon who insisted on "Mr" as a professional title. She might have been making some point though to her colleagues.
Upbeat-Statistician8@reddit
She is correct. In those days, women were not admitted to study Medicine so all senior surgeons were “Mr”. The tradition stuck.
MDK1980@reddit
IIRC "Mr" is usually used when they're there as consultant. I still call them "Dr" when I see them, though.
peterbparker86@reddit
If they're a surgeon. Everyone else is Dr
AppleCrumbleAndCream@reddit
Or Miss ;)
Striking-Amoeba-5563@reddit
It’s consultants who are Mr./Mrs./Ms and so on, but even as a Brit I’ve never completely understood it - I’d be a bit annoyed if I’d worked really hard to be a doc, then studied and learnt even more in order to be a consultant but then had to abandon my title!
AppleCrumbleAndCream@reddit
I've spent over £3000 and 2 years of my life on the MRCS exams. I'm desperate to go back to Miss lol
drs_enabled@reddit
The opposite applies often, I was very pleased to revert to Mr on passing my exams. Felt like a marker of the hard work and an indicator to patients of seniority.
You are also free to keep Dr if you wish (though I like the historical link)
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I've never yet met a surgeon who has kept Dr (& that includes a couple with PhDs!). Though I like the history, the confusion (well demonstrated here) means I think it's time for us to revert to Dr. We'd all have to do it together, though - do it piecemeal and it would only add to the confusion!
peterbparker86@reddit
That only applies to surgeons. Everyone else is a Dr.
Striking-Amoeba-5563@reddit
Not sure about that tbh, seen a neurologist and a gynae, both consultants, a Ms and a Mrs
peterbparker86@reddit
They will be both members of the royal college of surgeons. I'm an NHS matron worked in the NHS 15 years, trust me Mr/Miss/Ms only applies to surgeons.
Striking-Amoeba-5563@reddit
Fair enough, I will take your expertise over my limited knowledge!
Merlisch@reddit
In some countries you were allowed to fully work as a medical doctor before you had the academic achievement of doctorate.
notanadultyadult@reddit
Mr = consultant
ReedySaz@reddit
Traditionally surgeons were apprenticed rather than getting a medical degree. That led them to being referred to as Mr/Miss. Nowadays all doctors need a medical degree and can be referred to as Dr but a lot of surgeons still prefer Mr/Miss.
milly_nz@reddit
Nope. It’s more convoluted than that.
Once you get your foundation training and are registered with the GMC, you’re a doctor.
Then you do (what feels like) a life time of specialism training. Once you pass all those exams, you’re a consultant and revert back to being able to be referred to as Mr/Mrs.
Untrained at all (no medical degree): Mr/Mrs Medical degree and GMC reg: Dr Consultant: back to Mr/Mrs
But some consultants, depending on their role, will still use “Dr” in some professional contexts.
Unless they’ve become a Professor. Then it’s “Prof”.
Easy.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I'm afraid you think this is easy, but you are wrong.
All doctors registered with that GMC can be called Dr. Most continue to do so, but, once a doctor had passed the first set of surgical exams (MRCS), then can (& I've never met anyone who didn't) revert to Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs.
A higher honorific, e.g. Prof or Sir can override Dr or Mr.
Coca_lite@reddit
And if both a professor and a Sir, the Professor takes precedent
Prof Sir John Smith for example.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I don't think I'm likely to be bothered by that, thankfully!
Coca_lite@reddit
There’s an ophthalmologist at moorfields who has Prof Sir. A world leading surgeon who specialises in a particular children’s eye disease and pioneered treatment.
stutter-rap@reddit
Yeah, I really don't understand why this person is so insistent. I have never seen a single (non-professor, non-surgeon) consultant in England use anything other than Dr. I would be really interested in seeing a hospital bio of someone with Miss/Mr/Mrs for a non-surgeon.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I can understand the general confusion, which is why some surgeons (me included) feel it may be time to simplify it and just all be called Dr. Especially now the GMC is regulating non-doctors, who will go by Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs...
Coca_lite@reddit
Big danger of Physician Associates leading patients to believe they are surgeons, especially if working in surgical ward.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Absolutely. I know extended scope physios who still wear a uniform and are very clear about their role, yet patients still refer to them as "doctor".
stutter-rap@reddit
Yeah, the Americans just stick with Dr for surgeons too, don't they? Though they also have a lot more doctorates for non-doctors and I don't know what they do for those titles.
Also on the confusion front, sometimes it's not obvious that someone is a surgeon rather than a medical consultant - e.g. if you go to ENT and are prescribed nasal sprays that sort you out and no-one ever mentions surgery, you might not realise you were still talking to a surgeon.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Pretty much everywhere else does too. The Aussies etc used to mirror us, but they got rid of it a long time ago, I believe.
Unfortunately, there is more blurring of roles everywhere. Does it matter as long as the patient is treated appropriately and understands the background/training of the person treating them? Maybe not, but this post shows the huge ignorance around what should be a relatively simple subject, so how a lay person is supposed to understand that (for eample) Dr Smith, consultant podiatric surgeon, has a PhD and not a medical degree, I have no idea.
Grunn84@reddit
As someone without a medical background but who currently works in admin for a hospital trust, it's interesting to learn what the actual "rules" are. I have noticed that Dr is far more likely to be used in medical letters patients will read than the ones not intended for outsiders.
From the perspective of the people dealing with your paperwork, can you please just all go by Dr for simplicity? When writing work emails it's a sometimes a genuine problem to work out if you are male or female (and if female if you are mrs/miss/ms)?
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I'm in favour of us all being called doctor, but it has to be everyone doing this at once, or it's just going to cause more confusion.
As for work emails, I always use my first name anyway!
Present_Program6554@reddit
Everyone and his dog goes by Dr in the US.
teh_maxh@reddit
The title "doctor" comes from the Latin word for "teach", so technically it's the (non-teaching) physicians who shouldn't be using it.
stutter-rap@reddit
I'm not talking about PhDs, I'm talking about DNP, PharmD, DPT, etc. They gave a lot of degrees where British professions usually stop at bachelors or masters.
Coca_lite@reddit
Unless dual qualified and now specialising in medical rather than surgery,
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
My consultant who removed my gallery bladder was a Miss !
stutter-rap@reddit
Yes, she would definitely be a surgeon if she removed your gallbladder.
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
I mis-read your comment, apologies.
Sasspishus@reddit
This was certainly the case when I used to work for the NHS. The vast majority of consultants were Mr/Mrs, everyone else was Dr
americanskullbeaver@reddit
This is wrong - Medical Degree = Dr
Any doctor which has passed MRCS (Membership of Royal College of Surgeons exams) and can be quite junior = Mr/Mrs
Sasspishus@reddit
I'm just relating my experience, which is that the vast majority of consultants went by Mr or Mrs
mdkc@reddit
All medical consultants go by Dr (unless they have a fancier title).
Sasspishus@reddit
Well they didn't when I worked for the NHS, they were all Mr or Mrs, as I've said 3 times now.
After-Anybody9576@reddit
They will have been surgical consultants specifically
mdkc@reddit
Out of interest, how long ago was this?
americanskullbeaver@reddit
You probably were around a lot of surgeons and surgical consultants. I have never met or heard of any medical doctor or medical consultant which do not use Dr. as a title
americanskullbeaver@reddit
You probably worked around a lot of surgical consultants. I have never heard of or met medical consultants which do not use Dr. as a title
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
Also Dentists used to be Mr/Mrs because of the same barber surgeon route - definitely as a child they were Mr Page etc. Now they all use Dr i have noticed.
originalcinner@reddit
I was going to say that dentists and veterinarians are Mr/Ms, not Dr. But I haven't lived in the UK for 20 years, so I don't have a personal finger on that pulse any more.
My US dental surgeon (who did my implant, with surgery, not a general run of the mill dentist) is both a doctor and a dentist; he did the medical degree first and then specialised in dental surgery. But he is American, so he doesn't have two decide whether he's Mr or Dr.
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
They used to be but a big change took place on the use of the courtesy title.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41415-020-1526-6#:~:text=UK%20dentists%20have%20enjoyed%20the,pressure%20from%20within%20the%20profession.
A genuinely interesting read !
PrincessOfTheCat@reddit
Just to add to the conversation, I’m a nurse and the absolute best doctor I’ve ever worked with is a consultant and insists that everyone from patients to housekeeping call him by his first name
Helen-2104@reddit
There's an awful lot of what people think going on here. The correct answer can be found here, in the British Medical Journal: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1119265/
and summarised like this:
The above article is from 2000, but nothing has changed since then except that there is now a very welcome push towards abolishing Miss/Ms/Mrs/Mx/Mr for Surgeons and sticking to the gender-neutral "Dr" across the board.
Following the "Hello, my name is" initiative, doctors (regardless of their status) will usually tell you their preferred name on first meeting - sometimes they will now introduce themselves by their first name even, it varies.
Basic_Simple9813@reddit
25 years on from that article, surgeons are still referred to as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms. However, junior doctors are no longer referred to as junior doctors. Perhaps use a more up to date reference.
Helen-2104@reddit
You are, of course, quite correct. My head is full of end of year revision and associated bullshit at the moment and I missed that. Thanks for the correction.
Basic_Simple9813@reddit
Oooh that sounds stressful. Good luck!
Helen-2104@reddit
Thanks :)
iolaus79@reddit
Surgeons are Mr (or Mrs/Ms) even today
They get to consultant and stop using doctor - which I remember from my student midwife days resulting in one consultant introducing himself as firstname surname being asked when he was due to qualify
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
So is being referred to as doctor less prestigious then?
SaxonChemist@reddit
No.
It just denotes which branch of medicine one practises.
Anything surgical = Mr/Ms
Anything medical = Dr
But, there are more branches of surgery than people realise. Ophthalmologists are surgeons, ENT are surgeons, Obs & Gynae are surgeons, MaxFax are dental surgeons
I'm a Dr, and I'm very proud of that, surgeons are equally proud of their distinct branch
mellonians@reddit
As my surgeon said to me, they work hard to become Dr then work hard to become Mr again.
Extension_Sun_377@reddit
Yes but it's a proper Mister and not just your common or garden Mr.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
It's about passing surgical exams (MRCS), not being appointed a consultant.
talexbatreddit@reddit
Yup. My grandfather was the chief surgeon at Grantham-Kestevan (I hope I have the name right), and he was Mr. J. His portrait's up on the wall at the hospital.
And he definitely had his MD, and was a member of FRCS. But .. tradition! :)
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
Many of you are mentioning surgeons and one of you mentioned gynecology being a surgical speciality. It makes me wonder if in the UK the word surgeon means something slightly different? In the US a surgeon literally performs surgery, but you could certainly be a gynecologist or an oncologist or dermatologist who does not perform surgery. It seems like there is some different distinction there
Savasanana@reddit
To become an obstetrician gynaecologist in the UK you absolutely need to perform surgery - caesarean section, both open and laparoscopic surgeries such as ovarian cystectomy and salpingectomy, operative hysteroscopy, many gynaecologists will perform hysterectomies and myomectomies, some will do advanced cancer surgery, vaginal surgery, urogynaecology surgery, fertility surgery. Etc etc.
Faddowshax@reddit
Surgical specialities here are general surgery (guts and stuff), vascular (blood vessels), orthopaedics (bones), obstetrics and gynaecology (pregnant and non pregnant female reproductive organs), urology (kidneys, bladder, male reproductive organs), breast (boobs), cardiothoracic (hearts and lungs), neurosurgery (brains and spinal cords), ophthalmology (eyes), ENT (ear, nose and throat) and probably some others that I can’t think of right now.
To progress up the ladder in a surgical speciality a doctor has to pass a set of exams, when they have passed those they become an MRCS (member of the royal college of surgeons). This is when they can start using Mr/Miss/Ms instead of Dr.
I’m sure there are some “surgeons” who have passed the exams but then moved into research or teaching or changed speciality and who no longer perform any surgery but are still called Miss/Ms/Mr. They would definitely be the minority though.
Dermatology is traditionally a medical speciality and to progress in their speciality they would sit exams to become a member of the royal college of physicians (MRCP). When the royal college of physicians were changing how medical training worked a few years ago, the dermatologists didn’t like the changes and threatened to become a surgical speciality instead. So the royal college allowed their trainees to opt out of the proposed extra year of general medical training.
Oncologists here are generally physicians, not surgeons, and they decide on chemotherapy or radiotherapy treatments. They work closely in a team with surgeons though, so if you have a kidney cancer you might be seen by a urologist (surgeon) who operates to remove it and also by an oncologist (physician) to plan any chemotherapy or radiotherapy you might need.
iolaus79@reddit
It's passing your surgical exams and becoming an MRCS
GrapeGroundbreaking1@reddit
Just to add to the confusion, surgeons with research interests who have acquired a professorship tend to go by Prof rather than Mr, even in straightforwardly clinical contexts.
blamordeganis@reddit
Just to add a fun f
Jimmyboro@reddit
Consultants are generally referred to as Mister. Residential are referred to as Doctor. It's the difference between a full time employee and a contractor
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
I’m not sure of the difference between a consultant and residential.
blamordeganis@reddit
This should help https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/international-doctors/life-and-work-in-the-uk/toolkit-for-doctors-new-to-the-uk/doctors-titles-explained
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
A residential is a type of building here you live. A consultant is a senior doctor.
There may have been some confusion with "registrar", which is a fairly senior doctor, one below a consultant (broadly equivalent with a resident in the US). Or possibly with the new use of "resident doctor" to replace "junior doctor" (any doctor not a consultant).
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Not true. Anyone with a medical degree is entitled to be called Dr. Anyone who has passed the first set of surgical exams (MRCS) usually reverts to Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs. This takes place at least 6 years (& another set of exams) BEFORE becoming a consultant.
gnufan@reddit
My consultants are both professors, at least one is an honorary professorship, adding an additional twist my surgeon did a doctorate in medical genetics but I still don't get to call him doctor.
PerfectCover1414@reddit
The more qualified a doctor is in their profession the less the reference to Dr. Consultants and surgeons are often Mr/Miss/Mrs etc
We are the opposite to the US where everyone medical-ish bar nurses is a doctor. LOL I put my foot in it when I moved as I called the optician, the optician she angrily corrected me saying she was the eye doctor. Ooops. But I didn't make the same mistake with the chiro also a doctor.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Chiropractors are NOT medically qualified and should not be called Dr unless they have a PhD.
PerfectCover1414@reddit
Many chiros here title themselves as doctors despite no medical qualifications. I just thought it was an American thing.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Ah, sorry, missed you were in the US. The laws may be different there, but it's illegal to call yourself Dr in the UK unless you have a medical degree or PhD.
RealRhialto@reddit
Dr is not a protected title in the U.K., feel free to give it to yourself. See the Health Professiona Order 2001
What is illegal is pretending to be a registered medical practitioner, or one of a number of other roles, when you’re not.
There are probably good reasons why it should be illegal to call yourself Dr when you’re not a registered medical practitioner, especially in a health care context, but it’s currently legal to do so.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
Yes, you are of course correct and I oversimplified in my haste to point out that chiropractors aren't doctors. Even if it's legal for them to call themselves Dr, you still shouldn't, as they still don't have a medical degree. Save yourself money and see a physio instead!
PerfectCover1414@reddit
No worries, it was very confusing at first but nomenclature is certainly different to back home.
NotABrummie@reddit
If you qualify as a physician, you get to call yourself "Doctor". Originally, the term only applied to those who were highly qualified academics, like those with a PhD, but physicians were granted the title due to the respect for their profession, eventually coming to be known as "doctors". When a physician/doctor gains a PhD, they revert to Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms. So, a medical professional who isn't called doctor is likely more qualified.
DreadLindwyrm@reddit
A medical doctor with a PhD is doubly a doctor, being entitled to Doctor through medical courtesy (whatever the *technically* Batchelor level medical degree that comes with the right to medical Doctor) and through academic courtesy (as a PhD).
They *might* though be "professor" if they're holding a PhD and a teaching role.
RealRhialto@reddit
They might also be a professor without a PhD and without academic teaching. That’s a title awarded by a university through its own processes.
And in the U.K. an academically inclined medical doctor is more likely to hold an MD than a PhD.
Estrellathestarfish@reddit
A doctor who doesn't use 'Dr' will be a in a surgical specialism, that's the distinction. You are right that 'Dr' is a honorific for the medical profession but wrong about the rest. A surgeon is no more qualified than those in nonsurgical specialties.
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I don't know how many more confidently incorrect answers I can take. Please read my many previous explanations. I can't be bothered to type it all again!
Agitated_Ad_361@reddit
I’m baffled at how you can be a big fan of call the midwife.
publiusnaso@reddit
I voiced this view on Twitter once and got a pile-on led by the McGann bloke who wasn’t Doctor Who.
Agitated_Ad_361@reddit
My mum had it on when I visited her once. It was once of the most twee bits of Brexit telly I’ve ever seen.
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
??
I have never heard/read that expression before. What does it mean?
pcor@reddit
Neither have I but it makes sense. Idealised fantasy of rural or aristocratic life that makes people a generation removed from what it’s even portraying feel nostalgic.
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
Call the Midwife is set in an impoverished suburb in east London. Definitely not rural. Definitely not arisistocratic. Not idealised.
pcor@reddit
The half an episode or so I’ve been subjected to looked pretty fucking rural to me, but I’ll take your word for it. Doubt any healthcare worker will agree it’s not idealised though, and it’s twee as all hell.
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
Are you confusing it with a completely different programme? The Darling Buds of May, perhaps?
pcor@reddit
Pretty sure I’m not, it had Charlotte Ritchie in it and Vanessa Redgrave‘s VO.
And while I was trying to work out which of the cast members I recognised I found out one of the characters is “Trixie Franklin, later Trixie, Lady Aylward” hahahaha the vibes were right
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
It was not unknown for 'well to do young ladies' to 'do good works' in poor areas, or for them to train to be nurses. (Source: my mother who lived in Stepney and within 5 miles east if there from 1918 to 1986). Poorer women would not have had that opportunity.
You have picked the one character - a nurse - who came from money and married the son of a titled man.
None of their patients were well off. The 1960s was a time of slum clearances and the building of tower blocks. The programme starts in the late 1950s. Many of the patient characters were living in those slums.
pcor@reddit
I’m not disputing any of that, I only mean that the inclusion of aristocratic characters and fetishisation of ascension to the aristocracy are very much along the lines of what I’d expect from the vibes given off (to me) by the programme.
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
And you got all this from half a programme half-watched? Probably not even half-watched given that you are convinced it is a rural setting and that the inclusion of one character married to someone who later inherited a title, a character who continued to work with the the poor after her marriage makes it 'about aristocratic life'.
Clearly you are someone who cannot accept that they can ever be wrong. Even saying
about something you have barely seen, shows that you judge with your preconceived ideas.
As for the line
That says heaps about you.
I'm done with you. Bye.
pcor@reddit
I can’t really be wrong about my opinions, and I’ve already said I believe you that it’s not a rural setting. I’ll happily admit that I approach British period dramas with a modern setting with preconceived ideas and I’m quite comfortable with that because it’s just some television programme, really not worth getting so mad or hostile about…
iolaus79@reddit
Maybe the half episode they saw was one of the Xmas episodes which weren't in London?
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
I don't remember the out of London ones and I thought I had seen them all.
iolaus79@reddit
One in the Scottish Highlands and one episode in Africa (I think South Africa but maybe wrong - where Tom and Barbara get engaged - tbh they are weaker episodes)
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
Ah, I vaguely remember the one in Africa, yes!
Hardly an example of rural Britain or British aristocracy, though.
MolassesInevitable53@reddit
Idealised???
Please explain what you found idealised in a programme that includes storylines about kids and women being abused by fathers and husbands, people living in squalor, kids being hospitalised for months with diseases that have now been all but eradicated, and unmarried mothers having to give up their babies.
pcor@reddit
Trixie Franklin, later Trixie, Lady Aylward.
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
Huh it takes place in East End London mostly among impoverished families
pcor@reddit
As I said, haven’t seen a full episode, I’m working mostly on (very poor) vibes.
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
Hm, neither rural nor aristocratic really (call the midwife)
LibelleFairy@reddit
It's a bit of a Trojan horse. It absolutely has twee "Brexit telly" aesthetics, and some of the characters are too saintly to be human (the GP character in particular, and some of the nuns) ...
but underneath that twee syrup it has genuine heft and substance - much more so than the vast majority of tv dramas (let alone Sunday afternoon telly). Its portrayal of pregnancy and childbirth is consistently very realistic, medically accurate (including an accurate reflection of medical practice and maternity care at that time in history), and very unsentimental. Those nuns and midwives don't just sit around having plucky British tea parties under homemade bunting - they consistently deal with extraordinarily gnarly life-and-death situations, and the ptsd is real (childbirth is metal - like, it's actual real-life body horror). They regularly face genuinely harrowing situations not only in terms of obstetric emergencies, but also in terms of the living conditions and life situations of a lot of their patients (the show doesn't sugarcoat the lived reality in the poverty of the East End in the 1950s).
And - while the show doesn't challenge the viewer very much in terms of moral ambiguity (it very much spoonfeeds the viewer in terms of who is in the right and who is in the wrong whenever there's a plot involving a moral conflict), the actual values that the show embodies are very enlightened and progressive in many, many ways. If there's wider "lessons" it tries to teach, they are about being inclusive and nonjudgmental, about the importance of caring for each other, and - crucially- about never turning your back on people who are marginalized and often reviled or dismissed by society. Those nuns and midwives are there for everybody, and treat all their patients with dignity and respect and compassion and kindness, no matter whether they are assisting a neat and respectable married woman excited about her first child, or a prostitute giving birth in a dingy brothel, or a desperately poor mother-of-six who is bleeding out after procuring an illegal back alley abortion. Those values are the antithesis of everything that Brexit represents.
And it absolutely, fervently portrays the importance and value of the NHS, especially in the early seasons which begin more or less at the time the NHS was first established, and you very much get to see the reality that people faced without it. Not only that, but it also shows very starkly why social care is life-saving (the midwives essentially serve as social workers in many ways), why social safety nets should be non-negotiable (and nobody should be judged for needing them), why we need good quality affordable housing and the life and death difference that council housing made to people in the post-war era, and it humanizes disabled people (including people with developmental disabilities and serious mental sickness) in a way that is still rare, even today.
Sometimes, those progressive messages are delivered with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, but a lot of the time they are interwoven into the plot very well - much better than most tv dramas. This is meant to be comfort telly, not a hard hitting gritty drama.
So anyway, I can forgive the syrup and the twee aesthetics. There is more than enough substance and bite underneath it, and even within the syrupy layers of the show, there is some genuine character growth, grief, love, and unlikely friendships spanning social class and age groups. And I do like that the storytelling uncompromisingly centres such a large and varied group of women - half of whom are nuns, for heaven's sake. How many tv dramas are there that portray nuns as actual humans, and not either evil, or comic relief side characters?
I mean, in one episode, sister Evangelina climbs up a fricken ship's rope ladder in her nun's habit, wimple flapping, in a storm in the middle of the night, determined to get on board a Swedish cargo ship and assist in the labour of a serial rape victim trapped on there, trafficked by her dad to "serve" the crew. Sister Evangelina isn't young, and she injures herself climbing that ladder, but that doesn't stop her delivering that baby safely and then giving the ship's crew a very unambiguous piece of her mind, scaring them all half to death. That's a top notch tv drama storyline, right there!
PerfectCover1414@reddit
Then you better not watch Father Brown ugh it's shockingly bad!
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
Idk your gender but I’m guessing mostly women enjoy it. Makes me cry every time!
JimDixon@reddit
My wife is. She hasn't missed an episode. I sorta watch it too, but only because it would be on regardless, and I usually play video games or puzzles at the same time. Same with Doc Martin.
Icy-Belt-8519@reddit
Yeh my partners surgeon and consultants are mainly Mr, I have two consultants and one is Mr one is Dr, then all the doctors than arnt thst high are Dr
Im a student paramedic, all the doctors I see I call Dr cause I am just giving a handover, If I'm handing over to a doc high up enough to be Mr the chances are it's a seriously unwell patient and I don't have time to be finding that out! So I'm not sure with the docs I speak with
Parking_Champion_740@reddit (OP)
Interesting it seems completely the opposite of the US. It would be kind of insulting to call any medical doctor Mr.
GalwayGirlOnTheRun23@reddit
Consultant surgeons are Mr/Mrs but other specialities are Dr.
keithmk@reddit
Consultants (not just surgeons) addressed in that wya
Glad-Feature-2117@reddit
I don't know which hospitals you've attended, but this just is not the case. Only surgeons who have passed MRCS (including O&G) revert to Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs. All other doctors remain Dr.
afcote1@reddit
The consultants at my local hospital, I have discovered, are all called Dr. This confused me.
SnooDonuts6494@reddit
It's complicated.
Mikeytee1000@reddit
Surgeon’s are Mr. and they are more highly qualified
readbackcorrect@reddit
I am an American who worked at a teaching hospital in the OR where most of the attendings were not US citizens. I remember one of the British surgeons who absolutely refused to be called Dr. he said it was an American affectation designed to separate the surgeon from his team and stoke his ego. He would answer to Mr, but preferred to be called “John”. Great surgeon, great all around guy.
thingymajigg_@reddit
I work in a hospital and from what I see, nowadays it comes down to preference. All the surgeons I know go by Mr/Mrs. Other consultants tend to me a mixed bag somewhat aligning with age. Older consultants tend to keep Dr, some of the younger go by Mr/Mrs. And the junior Doctors, well some of them actively dislike Dr and just prefer to be called by their first names. Obviously, I doubt this applies across the board, just how it looks where I work!
qualityvote2@reddit
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