SIG just updated their P320 manual with this line. It Ends Today
Posted by 11448844@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 268 comments

Posted by 11448844@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 268 comments
RecoveredSack@reddit
Damn man. I wanted a p365 so bad, they seem like the perfect carry gun and my Glock 19 gets uncomfortable from time to time in this warm weather. I just cannot support a company that handles something like this so poorly.
What’s the best p365 alternative??
texas0101@reddit
P365s are still good, the one people are debating around is the p320
RecoveredSack@reddit
I heard that the 365s have issues with their springs/guide rods. Also don’t really want to buy from sig with how they’ve handled the 320 situation. I’ll check out the reflex man, thanks!
texas0101@reddit
But if you want to move away from sig in general, try the fn reflex
Equivalent-Box-9275@reddit
According to the sig Rep at NRA show, yes it's true. They claim 3 or 4 other manufacturers have the same wording. It's bullshit from the lawyers.
torntreach@reddit
The manual from a pre "voluntary trigger upgrade" manual says "ready to use" rather than ready to fire.
Edrobbins155@reddit
Thats what my REV 02 manual says also. Post upgrade. From 2019.
TopHand1845@reddit
Well I guess that is the most safe way to carry a pistol. That is also the safest way to carry a shotgun or rifle. Can't have an accidental discharge if you don't have a cartridge in the chamber.
Edrobbins155@reddit
Kinda defeats the reason of carrying. How are you going to hunt like that????
5stringattack@reddit
Gonna back pedal so much they'll bring the p250 back
TacTurtle@reddit
An updated 2022 would be lowkey kinda neat.
ZombieCzar@reddit
Still my car carry to this day. Maybe the new one could have a red dot mount, that'd be neat.
5stringattack@reddit
I've seen a few people get them milled. The shops that did it had to cut into the rear sight a bit but it works
ZombieCzar@reddit
Yeah, that's what they had to do to my HK45. got a new cut in front of the sight for the rear iron. Works fine but looks a little funny.
5stringattack@reddit
I think they should make the p250 a bit more modular, figure out how to make it be able to switch from DAO to da/sa to sao with the option to add a manual safety, call it the 2055
ShinraTM@reddit
It would have been a good gun if they could have copied the HK LEM trigger. But having a long, atrocious, heavy pull with a long reset for each shot killed it.
SeemedGood@reddit
That’s the lightest, smoothest, and easiest to stage DA pull I’ve shot.
b1gchris@reddit
Dude, I came to reply that too. I shoot mostly revolvers and the trigger is on par with my nicer revolvers, or rather the ones with the "good" triggers. That and the price was why I got it.
I get it though, this world likes striker fire/DA->SA light triggers and I didn't know about how bare bones it was until I took it home. I don't remember if there is an optic mount for 250's but if there is, it's probably drill & tap due to the hammer :l
SeemedGood@reddit
There isn’t. The P250 came and went before the age of optics on pistols.
I learned how to shoot pistols on that gun. Once you figure out how to stage it (muscle memory from dry-fire practice) it’s a really good gun.
But yeah, bare bones for sure compared to my H&K P30 LEMs - as you might expect at a 40% discount to the P30 when purchased new.
5stringattack@reddit
I don't think they have bad triggers, both mine are around 7lbs, they are kinda long though. I've read some were pulling 10-12 but I wonder if those were Leo specific versions, I could be wrong but I feel I read about a few states like new Jersey and New York that require DAO to have heavy triggers for police.
ErikTheRed99@reddit
A DA/SA modular pistol would be amazing.
Smart_Slice_140@reddit
It would be.
sirbassist83@reddit
bring back the P232!
Smart_Slice_140@reddit
Bring back the Sig Sauer P250!
choochoosaresafe@reddit
I say it every time I see it mentioned. I fucking love my 2022
Edrobbins155@reddit
Im down!
mocheesiest1234@reddit
P250 was the best thing that ever happened to me when it comes to handgun shooting. Double action only is an amazing way to reinforce good habits.
Red dots and hair triggers are cool for sure, but they don’t train good habits
5stringattack@reddit
I have 2 250s and parts for a third if I can find a stripped fcu without having to buy a complete 320.
SeemedGood@reddit
Apparently you are me.
5stringattack@reddit
Late to the party and then go overboard to catch up?
Smart_Slice_140@reddit
The Sig Sauer P250 is an amazing gun.
MK12Mod0SuperSoaker@reddit
Fucking do it. I would absolutely love a P250 in my Raider
5stringattack@reddit
With some minor grinding to the frame the 250 fcu should fit fine, I've got 2 in xgrips and I plan on getting an axg for my 9mm slide at some point.
MK12Mod0SuperSoaker@reddit
That would be perfect... If I had a P250! Haha I was a broke college student when it came out and left.
5stringattack@reddit
I actually got my 250s recently. I got the 45c used from a retailer, the 9mmc was a parts kit from gunbroker and my 40sc was another parts kit from eBay. I managed to get a stripped 320 fcu from a reddit user for 50 and that's what's in the 40 currently, just need to acquire another fcu for the 9 and I'll be good.
SeemedGood@reddit
Also looking for a 250 FCU for an additional farm and slide that I have. DM me if you find a spot that has them.
5stringattack@reddit
Best bet is to try and find a 320 fcu, all I had to do was drill a hole for the hammer pin and file a bit off the bottom so the hammer could travel freely. There's a few on gunbroker for right under 200 but I have a hard time paying that when they used to be available for 50-75.
SeemedGood@reddit
This.
csx348@reddit
I would only ever consider buying a Swiss made SIG P-210. They should remake those to bring down costs of original examples
brachus12@reddit
Yes- i wonder how many realize these are technically two separate manufacturers
A_Queer_Owl@reddit
remake them with doublestack mags.
Smart_Slice_140@reddit
Exactly
2MGR@reddit
I hope so, because then I might finally be able to get a good chassis for my P250. I would do dirty things for a P250 Flux Raider.
5stringattack@reddit
The fcu is compatible with all p320 modules, the metal ones need a bit of milling on the inside to allow the hammer to move freely but other than that it's plug and play.
2MGR@reddit
I read that the Flux Raider doesn't allow the trigger to travel far enough for DAO. And I haven't found any chassis that accepts 45 ACP conversions, so I'm unsure if that's because of the magazine size or higher pressures.
5stringattack@reddit
Ahh maybe the flux needs the same spots as the metal frames relieved then, as far as the 45 the only frames that work are the xten frames. I think icarus precision made a metal one for the 10mm also but I'm not a fan of the style. I have my 250c 45 in a chopped down xten grip.
2MGR@reddit
Good to know, thanks. My P250 collects dust so I'm trying to make it something fun and special.
Excelius@reddit
I always found it interesting that they kept making bigger versions of the P365, to the point where there are versions that are basically a full-size pistol. Notably, you never heard about these problems with unintentional discharges with the P365 line.
I mean, it would be kind of weird if S&W started selling the Shield Plus Plus Big Gulp Mega-XL edition.
Chance1965@reddit
Full admission that the P320 is unsafe with a round chambered.
gravity_loss@reddit
Absolutely
It's baffling that SIG didn't just lay the 320 quietly to death and just move on when this all started happening. They have plenty of other highly successful models. Whatever financial obligations they're tied up in this line of guns is def not worth the cost to their reputation
retardsmart@reddit
Sig Shill.
Trainmaster111@reddit
Does anyone actually know why they can ND?
Talking from a mechanical standpoint I don't quite understand.
Is it a issue with the striker fire design or something else?
Shuffles556@reddit
I’ve yet to see a p320 randomly go off with nothing pressing the trigger.
The drop safe issue, was real but not a world ender. I carried a series 70 for a long time with no issue.
However people don’t like to own up to their mistakes and will try to pass blame at every given opportunity. Every incident I have seen has been due to someone finger fucking the trigger, using an incorrect/faulty holster, or allowing something to depress the trigger when manipulating the firearm.
I might end up picking up a 320 for cheap from all this tho. I don’t mind to profit from the gullibility of others in this situation.
lordhamster1977@reddit
I never personally witnessed a ford pinto blow up…
Shuffles556@reddit
And yet it was repeatable under lab conditions by engineers to verify. Unlike the alleged issues with the sig p320. That is the difference.
What’s more like a design so egregiously bad a firearm can go off with absolute no input what so ever, or human error and subsequent attempts to shift blame from said person?
B4ND4GN@reddit
Please explain:
Please also explain why this doesn't affect Glocks and other striker fired pistols.
Springfield would be getting trashed if this was a thing. I don't think it is.
There are at least a half dozen videos where police are on camera doing police things with zero hands near the gun and it discharging.
The striker safety issue was proven when the military declassified the striker safety failure issue.
The leaked photos from SIG and the "made in Taiwan" trigger parts issue that causes striker failure issues is also proven.
Shuffles556@reddit
Using a shitty holster that can allow something to enter and depress the trigger is bad. I’ll see if I can find the news article of the guy at a wedding who sat down and had his gun fire due to his holster having an issue.
It did, hell we even had PDs trying to sue Glock over an “unsafe design”
I don’t have an issue with Springfield armory so not sure what you’re getting at here.
I’ve only seen videos of police officer fumble fucking around and being injured. Please link some incidents you’re referring to.
B4ND4GN@reddit
The striker safety breaks at 5000 rounds on 10% of guns. You need a second failure on top of that for it to "go off" but when that striker safety breaks, it is no longer drop safe.
Their cast, hardened, then chromed steel flats that they use between the trigger and striker are basically made of pot metal in China. If those parts aren't hardened properly, you can have trigger failures. These trigger failures can allow the striker to "slip."
Combine the two issues and you have dudes giving themselves free vasectomies every time they appendix carry.
Fuck SIG.
cmitche_@reddit
This is just legalese to protect Sig from idiots who don't know how to keep the trigger from being interacted with at all times. This is not admission of guilt in any way. It is simply saying that the safest way to ensure a round does not go off when you do not want it to is to keep a round out of the chamber and away from the striker and make sure nothing interacts with the trigger. This is true and if you follow this idiot proof guide you too will not have an ND. Will people follow these instructions?... No. Will people ND?... Yes. Will people continue to blame Sig?... Absolutely. OP is reaching with this post and I'm sick of the nonsense.
B4ND4GN@reddit
These are not an ND issue.
It is extremely rare, but the guns go off. It is a combination of striker safety breaking at around 5000 rounds and cheap Asian made trigger parts.
Make the guns from real metal parts that are tested in the USA or Switzerland and use a real striker safety.
lordhamster1977@reddit
The fact that the trigger parts are Asian made isn’t the problem. The problem lies with the company who accepted the quality, and stamped their brand on it. The professor of the device you are reading this on was likely make in Taiwan or China…except the specs from Apple or whoever were of a higher (more expensive) standards, and you bet they validated the qc process.
I really hate US suppliers blaming all their failures on supply chain partners as if that somehow absolves them of responsibility to oversee and validate.
B4ND4GN@reddit
From the comment you are responding to.
I never said don't make them overseas. I said test them.
lordhamster1977@reddit
Then we are in agreement. I’ve just seen too many American companies try to shift blame for their own lack of oversight on things they stamp their name off. I guess I was triggered, like a holstered p320
B4ND4GN@reddit
American companies do it with other American companies. Just look at the Sierra 5 debacle from Dead Air.
Dead Air did not test enough suppressors their manufacturer was producing. When bad batches were produced, the issue wasn't caught until the suppressors were turning into tactical maracas.
Also, SIG is Swiss, not American.
lordhamster1977@reddit
Sig Sauer Inc. is very much an American company. Though you are right it is a subsidiary of Sig Sauer AG but they are legally separate. It is the American entity that made this train wreck
11448844@reddit (OP)
okay sigger
Whoevenareyou1738@reddit
Does the M18/M17 have the same issue?
Th3_Shr00m@reddit
M18 and M17 have an external safety unlike the P320 so I imagine that helps
Ancient-Row1953@reddit
You can get the P320 with or without an external safety.
Th3_Shr00m@reddit
I've been overseas my entire adult life I wish I knew these things lol
WindstormMD@reddit
It does not. Only stops the trigger bar moving, doesn’t block the floating sear from dropping
Th3_Shr00m@reddit
Goes to show how much I know
Chance1965@reddit
Unless the military has changed their procedures since I was in, and it’s been a while, they already carry pistols with an empty chamber.
Th3_Shr00m@reddit
AFAIK only the Air Force carries one in the chamber unless something's changed in the past couple weeks, but the instructor could've also been wrong about that
Source: shot M18 last week
Lost_Drunken_Sailor@reddit
We carried one in the chamber in the Navy. I think everyone doing a security watch does, stupid not to.
Th3_Shr00m@reddit
It makes sense for security guys to have one loaded. He might've been referring to the dudes who don't regularly carry.
Strangely the Army doesn't carry one in the chamber on their pistols, cannot confirm if that's also true for rifles.
homemadeammo42@reddit
As an MP issued an M9 we always carried round in the chamber, hammer decocked, weapon on safe.
singlemale4cats@reddit
That's weird, the whole point of the safety is so you can carry it cocked.
homemadeammo42@reddit
If you have been in the army, you know there are a lot of things that don't make sense, redundant, and just "because we've always done it that way"
singlemale4cats@reddit
I never served, but I've heard that from a lot of guys who have. I guess any organization that large is going to have idiots you don't trust to have a loaded weapon in their day to day.
iluvfeds@reddit
Yeah we definitely carry with one in the chamber.
Chance1965@reddit
Thanks. Like I said, it’s been a while.
nightim3@reddit
BS. Sec forces has always carried condition 1. Since before the sig.
BrassBondsBSG@reddit
Like before the M9/Beretta 92F a while?
SOP with the 1911 was hammer uncocked and empty chamber.
AxtonGTV@reddit
Can confirm
aedinius@reddit
It would be.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
Wonder how many Sig simps are searching for Israeli firearms instructors today
Ancient-Row1953@reddit
That whole Israeli rack the slide thing isn't anything Shin Bet/Krav Maga sexy like a lot of people believe. It was devised to compensate for training deficiencies (lack of proper training time) and budgetary constraints. They didn't want to pay for all the ammo to properly train frontline troops on a secondary weapon that wasn't their primary. Similar to when the 1911 was in Army service, 7 rounds in the mag and empty chamber.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
That and the state of Israel was formed very quick under somewhat hostile situation following WWII and they received surplus weapons from allies as well as captured weapons. Many at the time weren't drop safe. Without a standard firearm it's logical training. Leave safety off and no matter what you're issued it's rack tap trigger. Way simpler than okay you have a push button located here and you have a lever located here while you have a lever located there
iluvfeds@reddit
Idk why Antone would want to own an sig after everything that’s come out recently, especially this.
PlayingDoomOnAGPS@reddit
I still think these people are NDing but the way Sig has handled it all, going back to the initial drop safe problems, just makes me distrust them. I was so close to buying a Flux Raider before the "it NDs today" fiasco and that tipped me over into waiting until they make one using an RXM or other non-Sig trigger pack. Also, while I don't have any safety concerns about my P365, my distaste for Sig these days makes me want to replace it with an FN Reflex.
deathlokke@reddit
There are videos of it literally going off in holsters with nobody touching it. It's not just NDs, these guns are just bad.
Thorebore@reddit
It’s like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue from 15 years ago. There was an actual issue and a handful of legitimate cases but ultimately like 70 percent of the cases overall were senior citizens. That leads me to believe most were user error.
nosce_te_ipsum@reddit
Hah! Anyone else here old enough to remember - 25 years before Toyota - Audi's "unintended acceleration" debacle? 60 Minutes did this whole pearl-clutching segment, and despite NHTSA's testing 3 years later (making it CLEAR the issue was user error) refused to retract their story.
We have lots of stupid people in the world. Not surprised lawyers would put this sort of verbiage in manuals.
Ancient-Row1953@reddit
I was in school when that crap came out and I remember it well. Back then the Audi had small clutch, brake and gas pedals that were very close together and similarly shaped. Having driven a bunch of them as a valet I knew it had to be some idiot who stomped on the gas, instead of the brake, slammed through the garage and couldn't tell her pissed off hubby the truth that she fucked up. Lets blame the car and get a big payday. Even as a dumb kid I was right.
Waste-Anybody6658@reddit
A firearm discharging in a holster can still be a negligent discharge. Using the wrong or low-quality holster and then proceeding to carry with one in the chamber is still a case of user error.
theDeadliestSnatch@reddit
They are going off in fucking Safarilands. There are some theories that using high quality holsters is part of the issue, because they are tightly securing the slide, so a bump to the grip allows enough movement in the FCU to release the striker.
singlemale4cats@reddit
I mean, maybe, but safarilands by default don't have a real tight fit. Most people don't run it like that because it's harder to holster and unholster.
singlemale4cats@reddit
Sig: "they had it holstered wrong"
spezeditedcomments@reddit
There's one video, and the firing pin broke off in a very hard run comp gun.
Link more pls, getting ready to sell mine lol
AM-64@reddit
The original video of a P320 going off was a cop exiting his cruiser and his gun going off in his holster.
There's been like 100+ documented incidents, tons of videos of other incidents and tons of people who have managed to get them to go off messing with them.
To pretend it isn't a P320 problem is disingenuous as there's not a bunch of the incidents happening with Ruger or S&W or Walther or HK or FN etc.
gameragodzilla@reddit
There are incidents, though they usually don't go viral because the P320 is the one at the center of controversy due to a genuine safety issue in the past. I remember that video of a Glock going off in someone's holster a few years ago.
So I remain skeptical of anything wrong with the P320 until the problems are replicated in a lab and an explanation for why they're happening is found. That's what happened with the drop safety issues and people figured out why it discharged when dropped.
singlemale4cats@reddit
I remember that video. I fully believe, given the track record of Glock and no history of uncommanded discharges, and the fact that it discharged specifically when he bent over, that there was some kind of obstruction in the holster that moved enough to pull the trigger when he bent over.
gameragodzilla@reddit
I mean a partially tensioned striker is stil capable of detonating a primer, especially if the primer is fairly soft. If they didn't, Glocks wouldn't need a firing pin block. That's not really a safety benefit there. Only benefit you get is a slightly longer and heavier trigger pull than a really short single action trigger like a 1911, but even 1911s won't shoot without pulling the trigger (with Series 80 components even preventing the muzzle down slamfire).
The issue is the video doesn't have any obvious infractions, and I guarantee if a P320 was in that video, everyone would still be spreading it around. It certainly could be something in the holster, but seems like the guy looked at his holster and didn't recklessly shove the gun in, not did it go off when he initially holstered it and only discharged when he bent over. I know Sig doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that other gun companies do because of the genuine safety issue in the passt, but that video does show that just because a gun goes off in a holster doesn't necessarily mean it's the gun that's at fault.
That's why I want to see the guns replicate their incidents in a lab controlled environment. That was done with the drop safety issue and everyone figured out how and why these guns fired when dropped. But thus far, the "discharging in holsters" phenomenon hasn't had that yet.
theDeadliestSnatch@reddit
If it is a tolerance stacking issue like most people theorize, it won't be repeatable in a lab as not every gun will be susceptible, but any gun could be.
gameragodzilla@reddit
Yeah but if it's a tolerance stacking issue, the specific guns that discharged should be replicatable in a lab, but I haven't seen that either. Just videos alleging uncommanded discharges but no follow ups.
Only thing that seemed to be replicatable was done on a channel called Three P320s in a Trenchcoat. I actually tested my P320 XTEN there and it passed his tests, so I guess my gun is fine. But my gun also doesn't move the safety lever in the FCU at all when the gun's on safe (since I have a manual safety) but there's also allegations that even manual safety M17s in military service are having problems. So I dunno.
Ancient-Row1953@reddit
This looks like typical hyperventilating over-lawyering. If you read the M17/18 manual it says not to chamber a round until you are ready to use it. Well, lemme twist like a lawyer and say when I'm carrying it technically, I'm using it so I should therefore have a round chambered. The act of carrying it IS using it!
Has anyone actually looked at the Springfield armory manual for the XD? Or the Taurus TH manual? I did today and I was quite surprised. They both say not to carry it loaded AND they both say DO NOT DROP because the pistol may fire if dropped!
Fantastic-Ice-5600@reddit
so does that mean the military and police should carry empty chamber? lol
CD_Repine@reddit
I striped my M18 apart last week and checked the serial number on Sig website for the upgrade. It was already upgraded when it was made and I didn’t see any issues with it. I’m continuing to monitor the weapon anyway for possible issues.
stjimmie666@reddit
Is the weapon with us in the room now?
EntrySure1350@reddit
It NDs ToDAy 🤪
MagHagz@reddit
You win the internet with this comment! Well done Sir!
Smart_Slice_140@reddit
Sig goes from “It ends today!” about the “lies” they were referring to. Then they go on a complete and total 180.
Mintsopoulos@reddit
This comment is criminally underrated!
Tokaiiiiii@reddit
I’m getting the reference, explanation please
Eoin_Coinneal@reddit
“It NDs (Negligent Discharges) today!”
Packin_Penguin@reddit
And don’t forget DA = Double Action
Odd-Solid-5135@reddit
ND= negligent discharge.
Tokaiiiiii@reddit
Oh that was an easy reference, thanks
Zcrippledskittle@reddit
It's also great to thinks that even fudds are pissed who always carry cOcKeD aNd LoCkEd
BigPimpin91@reddit
Bro, you got me dead. 💀
ChiefTitan808@reddit
do 320’s still have decent trade in value? lol
lordhamster1977@reddit
No, that ends today as well. 😂
letigre87@reddit
"this gun is not designed to be carried with a round in the chamber" I don't think that's a good selling point for a service pistol.
GOA_AMD65@reddit
The modern tokarev
jotnarfiggkes@reddit
Well that settles the debate. /s
OcSpeed@reddit
What a joke
ReadySteddy100@reddit
This is legal speaking found in a lot of manuals across manufacturers. OP is smooth brain
DONTuseGoogle@reddit
Found the sigbro
balkan-astronaut@reddit
This guy carry’s a p320
11448844@reddit (OP)
hey smooth brain, point out in any of THEIR OWN manuals where it says it other than the P320
https://www.sigsauer.com/owners-manuals
"Ready to use" is completely different from "CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER" in bold
Double0Dixie@reddit
wait is the p320 the one that was discharging rounds when it wasnt even being handled and they said they fixed it and it started doing it again??
Paladinraye@reddit
Careful man…. Sig might include you in their hurt feelings lawsuit
islesfan186@reddit
So will Revision 16 add to this and say “Do not carry in a Safariland holster”? Cuz Sig was all about throwing Safariland under the bus with some of these holster pops
AdventuresNorthEast@reddit
Is the ND issue P320 only, or is the P365 affected?
Hearth21A@reddit
The P365 has a different design, and is not subject to the same uncommanded discharge issues that the P320 allegedly suffers from.
B4ND4GN@reddit
From what I have heard, all striker 300 series.
That said, I have never heard of an issue with the 365.
I am some random reguard on the interwebs. My word is worth the shit you scrape off your shoe after clearing land mines in your back yard.
inventurous@reddit
What's most impressive about this is that someone, somewhere, looked at the manual.
Jetpack_Attack@reddit
I always read the manuals of the firearms I buy.
If it gives you a deeper understanding of it, that only makes you more competent and safe with it right?
RockSteady65@reddit
I read them too. That’s where I learned about the “grip zone” yeah baby
Cognonymous@reddit
tbh I don't get how people can grip other guns that don't have one
akambe@reddit
Tech writer here--for the sake of my job security, please read the manuals!
movebacktoyourstate@reddit
Thank you for what you do.
Just wondering - what grade level do most of your projects have to get written at? 5?
akambe@reddit
It depends on the targeted audience and type of materials. Conventionally, tho, we aim at 8th grade (Flesch–Kincaid level). An argument could be made for 5th, tho!
Jetpack_Attack@reddit
Thank you for your service. 🎇 🫡 🦅 🎆
xTeamRwbyx@reddit
Did the same with my canik since the safety is part of the trigger and I wanted to read up on it sadly my can possibly go off with enough force but since I’ve yet to hear my model having that happen I guess you gotta really drop it hard
GhostC10_Deleted@reddit
My Canik dropped the striker when I dropped it, I no longer have the Canik.
Happy_Garand@reddit
Yeah, well, that makes you a nerd! /j
dor3658463728395@reddit
Been in the manual since 2019
11448844@reddit (OP)
I didn't see it in the 2021 revision so you'd have to prove it brother
dor3658463728395@reddit
The manual I have came with an M17 bravo, it is yellow. It says "Do not load a round into the chamber until you are ready to use the pistol."
11448844@reddit (OP)
yeah totally different wording and very much different meanings imo. Carrying is using it
olorinii@reddit
This is to set a cut off date for future lawsuits. Anyone who has a ND after this change will not have a case.
mro2352@reddit
This is almost an admission that their weapons aren’t safe to carry with a round in the chamber.
MK12Mod0SuperSoaker@reddit
This has "the safest way to have sex is to not have sex" energy.
sahovaman@reddit
Very glad I never picked one of these up... I don't have a CCW yet, but damn...
EscapeWestern9057@reddit
So a modern handgun is a 1830s revolver lol
secretSquirrel6669@reddit
Wow
Alex-E-Jones@reddit
They tripping
Financial_Agency9058@reddit
I love sig, but this inability to fix this entire P320 issue is beyond alarming.
Threather19@reddit
The comments for this post in the CCW sub has people using the wayback machine to see this is a legit change by Sig
11448844@reddit (OP)
yeah, no dice so far. Not to mention that it's not in any of their other manuals for their pistols
Edrobbins155@reddit
I have a manual from like 2017. Going to check it when i get home.
ImDunn97@reddit
RemindMe! -8 hours
Edrobbins155@reddit
Its not worded like that at all.
TooEZ_OL56@reddit
best is to upload to imgur and post a link here
Edrobbins155@reddit
https://imgur.com/a/MAjqyJm
singlemale4cats@reddit
That's literally not how you use a pistol, ridiculous
RemindMeBot@reddit
I will be messaging you in 8 hours on 2025-04-24 02:36:14 UTC to remind you of this link
CLICK THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) ^(delete this message to hide from others.)
Avtamatic@reddit
So I checked my manual that came with my M18. It says not to load a round in the chamber until you're ready to use it. But only in plain text. There's no bold emphasis. I'll put a pic below.
11448844@reddit (OP)
2023 revision, archived Jan 18 this year, says "Ready to use" too
https://web.archive.org/web/20250118085259/https://www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/resources/OPERATORS_MANUAL_P320_8501909-01_REV11_WEB_FILE_1.pdf
lavavaba90@reddit
Same with M17.
Rail505@reddit
So glad i didnt jump on the p320 bandwagon a couple years ago.
steveosmonson@reddit
lol
Theron113@reddit
By this logic, the MOST effective safety is to leave your gun at home and unloaded...
AxtonGTV@reddit
The most effective safety is to not buy a gun!
/s if it wasn't obvious
singlemale4cats@reddit
It's like those tips for avoiding hangovers on the evening news. It's always drink 3 gallons of water at the bar and don't drink alcohol. Thanks, very helpful.
Happy_Garand@reddit
Well obviously. At least not ne adequate by SIG
Outside_Signature403@reddit
The fact they have a typo in their warning section is so fitting on many levels. Specifically, quality control.
(It’s after the highlighted section…did you catch it?)
singlemale4cats@reddit
Sig really out here telling people to Israeli carry their fucking pistol rather than fixing it
MyNameIsNotLenny@reddit
Dude like they really need better marketing. Even if the issue isn't as big as the internet makes it seem just redesign what needs to fucking done and figure out how to add another interal safety or something to prevent this. Think about what has to happen when you pull the trigger on a Glock. There's a whole ass plunger blocking your striker from impacting the primer if something breaks without the trigger being pulled. Just do SOMETHING and then video a bunch of tests and start with the 2.0 model. Redesign the whole fucking pistol at the point and call it something else for the commercial market. For the Gov? I dont fucking know. I really dont care and I dont know why I typed all this stupid shit out anyways. Whatever Im not buying one anyways.
Scuba1976@reddit
SIG = Sometimes it’s good
AverageBeakWoodcock@reddit
100% true. I own a few SIGs and I always test them first. My P238 is my EDC and I love it.
ServingTheMaster@reddit
this seems like an admission from SIG finally that the P320 is not condition 1 safe. this should lead to the largest firearms related recall rework since Remington.
BlackLegacyKing@reddit
I’ve carried my p320 for the last 4 years (started out as an M18 and now it’s a comp’d monster). I love this gun, I’m proficient in it, extremely comfortable, tailored exactly how I need it. While the manual safety gave me some comfort, I think it’s time to finally make it a safe/range toy. Switching to 2011 for my edc. If it wasn’t for all of the back peddling, I would be fine, but whoever is doing their PR has really made me lose the remaining bit of confidence I had.
ForeverInThe90s@reddit
Traded my M17 away several weeks ago and I do not have one ounce of regret. I didn’t like the gun and this is the icing on the cake.
halo121usa@reddit
W O W 🤦♂️
FCRII@reddit
This language is not specific to Sig, its for general liability & some form of it is used by most manufactures.
islesfan186@reddit
This particular one is specific to the P320 only. All the other Sig pistol manuals simply state “don’t load the gun until you are ready to use it”. The P320 manual said the same thing until just recently until Sig felt the need to add in “hey don’t carry the gun with one in the pipe and don’t load the gun until you have to fire it”…if it was just a CYA move, then make the change to all the manuals on all models of your pistols. Doing it to just the 320 will do exactly what this is doing, drawing negative attention and raising eyebrows. To me, this is like admitting there is an issue without actually saying the words
smokeyser@reddit
It isn't in their manual for the P365.
islesfan186@reddit
Or the 226
FalloutRip@reddit
Except for the fact that this language has only been added to the 320 documentation.
I do some technical writing for my company. If this change was global it would've been reflected simultaneously in every similar document for every other handgun they make.
Roguewolfe@reddit
So it's an attempt at proactive indemnification should it go to courts?
smokeyser@reddit
Bingo. If you carry with a round in the chamber, you're doing something that the manufacturer has stated is unsafe and therefore they are not liable for any damages.
FalloutRip@reddit
Something like that.
FCRII@reddit
If you do technical writing then you would understand it does not say under no circumstance carry with a round in a chamber & clearly states the need for the trigger to still be pressed to fire. All this does is clarify and support their claims that it will not unintentionally fire.
FalloutRip@reddit
I didn't comment on that part of it at all, just the fact that this language only appears in the manual for the 320.
It's pretty telling that this wording was not added to Sig's other striker-fired guns. Feel free to check for yourself: https://www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/resources/OPERATORS_MANUAL_P365_2700116-01_REV07_LR.pdf
https://www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/resources/operators-manual-p322-3900163-01-rev-01-lr.pdf
Excelius@reddit
The manual for the S&W M&P doesn't tell you to carry on an empty chamber.
shotgunsmooth@reddit
Recommending Israeli carry is wild and absurd
TitanGSD@reddit
I would not carry this gun anywhere. This is completely stupid. Tell the criminal to wait a second so you can load a round. I always carry mine with one in the chamber. It is only asking to get killed when you don't. Good luck trying to get rid of these. They just killed the sales of these guns. How about a buyback from Sig with an updated version or a credit for a better model.
nosce_te_ipsum@reddit
You know - for as much grief as everyone (generally correctly) gives Microsoft for how they treat their customers, I have lots of respect for one decision they made. When exiting the wearable/smartwatch market, they gave every customer of the Band and Band 2 a pretty substantial credit as a way to say "I'm sorry" for investing in platform they were giving up on.
That said - I don't see SIG doing that here, because it would relegate what is a very profitable product for them to Ford Pinto territory forever into the future.
Puazy@reddit
Will this affect their mil contract if they can't recommend carrying them while chambered?
B4ND4GN@reddit
Yes.
rasputin777@reddit
I have a P320. Its a comp gun so the ND thing doesn't really affect me.
That said, don't most guns say not to carry condition zero? They're written by lawyers. I'm curious if this is actually new or in reaction to the gun being a real hazard.
It would be be annoying if the thing really was a hazard. The XFive Legion is a sweetheart otherwise.
11448844@reddit (OP)
not Beretta: "If you carry a firearm for self-protection, leaving the chamber unloaded can reduce the chance of an unintentional discharge."
Not Glock: "Never carry your Glock out of a out of a suitable holster with a round in the chamber" (terribly worded way of saying use a good holster when carrying and not fucking about in your pocket)
Yes FN: https://imgur.com/a/OSWguc7
mfa_aragorn@reddit
And they still sell it ?
That_Is_My_Band_Name@reddit
People keep buying them.
AM-64@reddit
A huge reason they are popular is because you can pick them up from cheap because knowledgeable people don't want them but new people won't know any better and the idiot at the gun counter can sucker folks to buy them.
That_Is_My_Band_Name@reddit
I think that is part of it, but also since it's adoption as the service pistol of the US military.
"If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me!"
nosce_te_ipsum@reddit
Something something "everything you rely on is provided by the lowest bidder"
GrillinFool@reddit
Weren’t these the guys that just got all high and mighty and launched that multipage response saying everyone who bitched was just trying to get money?
That being said, my 320 shoots like a dream.
thatARMSguy@reddit
The actual gun itself is pretty reliable. It’s just unsafe
Cliffinati@reddit
It's a no click bang issues as opposed to a click no bang issue
nosce_te_ipsum@reddit
"You'll get that damned bang whether you wanted it or not! You paid for bang - and you got it! What are you complaining about?!"
Imagining SIG's attorneys saying this at a future class-action trial... =)
GrillinFool@reddit
I get that. Makes me sad.
puffer039@reddit
RIP that pistol,time to move on
thatgymdude@reddit
Buying from a company that makes unsafe products and releases carry guns without safeties, then gaslit their customers when they got hurt should not existed in the first place.
SeaFaringPig@reddit
Nothing to see here folks. Move along. There is no problem.
PartyEntrepreneur175@reddit
Wow. When is this dog of a pistol going to die.
AM-64@reddit
Never, there isn't anything wrong with it SIG told us so.
They basically told us "Only Anti-gunners believe that the P320 has any design flaws or is dangerous, it's the most tested pistol ever made."
PartyEntrepreneur175@reddit
Yet even Sig now says it’s not safe to carry with a round in the chamber.
AM-64@reddit
Maybe eventually they will admit to the fact that we were right all along
ReputationOk2073@reddit
Ol yeller is spry at this age.
A_Queer_Owl@reddit
I'd say SIG has egg on their face, but I'm pretty sure their face is nothing but egg.
letsee7654321@reddit
They can’t give them away anymore
babj615@reddit
Final nail.
urban_operator@reddit
Wow I didn’t see this coming
Expendable_Hostage@reddit
God, remember when Remington did this too
Remote_Stop6538@reddit
Most of not all firearm safety manuals have this in their manuals. Almost positive it is also in the manuals of Glock, Smith & Wesson, Beretta, FN, HK, etc too. Pretty sure it's a liability thing.
I would definitely be wary about the P320/M17/M18 for carry/duty use until this issue is resolved once and for all, but I don't think that this being in the manual should be a cause to discourage anyone from carrying a particular firearm.
vonroyale@reddit
Soon they'll have to change it to... "Do not carry the gun with a magazine inserted, only insert the magazine when ready to fire the gun."
RaccoonDoor@reddit
Hard to believe this saga has been going on for over seven years now
moisTypeS@reddit
It is comical at this point, and Reddit is to be fully credited with the reason this is still a daily topic of conversation
Crashing_Machines@reddit
I got my P320 in 2016, sold it in 2019. I was ahead of the curve.
PatriotZulu@reddit
LOL GTFO of here with that bullshit Sig, own your mistakes, stop trying to gaalight everyone.
warisgayy@reddit
Not in a safe = not safe
TitanGSD@reddit
The safety of the P320 is behind the firing pin. Terrible design,and they need to do a call back on allow these weapons.
steveHangar1@reddit
Wow…that’s crazy, and pretty much an admittance the the gun is fucked.
lavavaba90@reddit
It's in my manual for m17 it's just not highlighted and in a slightly different spot.
That_Signature6930@reddit
I don’t believe this to be TRUE. Sig does not confirm this!
gun_runna@reddit
Israel should buy a bunch of them since the only way to carry these is Israeli carry.
PinheadLarry2323@reddit
This is in literally every firearm manual though
smokeyser@reddit
No, they don't all tell you to carry with an empty chamber.
11448844@reddit (OP)
i didn't see it in any of mine, nor is it in every one of SIG's very own manuals
Happy_Garand@reddit
Poor people: ⚰️
Rich people: ⚰️
People who follow SIG's suggestion to not get an artery in your leg severed because of an AD: ⚰️
Crazy-Ad-2161@reddit
Wow, this is the most BS CYA I've ever read.good job SIG 🙄.
Select-Cat-5721@reddit
In other words, “This pistol has a problem and you have to carry it in an unready state or you could be shot when it goes off randomly”.
I understand why they will never fully address the issue with the P320…it would cost them millions if they ever admitted their design flaw. Too many incidents, some with video evidence that they know they would lose in a court fight.
RacerXrated@reddit
😆
RedditPoster05@reddit
Why do the Sig X version for the military not have this problem? Sig just needs to give it up with the 320. Stop selling it, come out with the same gun fixing whatever problem is there release it as the 420 enhanced version. They could even make mags different to fuck over their customers more. Theyd love it.
fashion_mullet@reddit
Bwahahahahahahaah
cderwa@reddit
Warranty will be voided if you don’t follow the manual
PNWShots@reddit
This is true of any firearm. Impractical, but technically true. It's kind of like saying "the best way to avoid car crashes is to stay out of cars" -- it's true, but.....
Clickclickdoh@reddit
It's at the top of page 3 in the old manual.
11448844@reddit (OP)
pic or link?
Michael_J_Scarn@reddit
Top of Page 4 on the 2021 version although wording is different.
11448844@reddit (OP)
that wording is completely different and not really the same statement at all
DoPewPew@reddit
I bet the Sig subreddit is on suic1de watch
AxtonGTV@reddit
Self-censoring lol
shibbster@reddit
Maaaaan.... I really like mine too. Good to know that ND that put a hole thru three walls really wasnt my fault after all.
Walleyevision@reddit
So basically, carry a club that can be converted to a gun with this one simple step?
SkinnyStock@reddit
Ooof thats bad
Real_Mila_Kunis@reddit
I’m almost positive I saw this way back in like 2016 or whenever the drop safety thing was popping up. Most companies have copy and pasted safety warning which say don’t load until ready to fire, only Sig mentions carrying the gun unloaded
Storage-Zestyclose@reddit
Yes because God forbid I need to actually draw on someone I’ll ask them to give me a sec so I can rack the slide…🙄
Hydra_Dominatus_XX@reddit
Is that late April fool joke?🙄
BeenisHat@reddit
Israeli carry. 😂
InternetExploder87@reddit
I'm starting to think sig is actively trying to kill people
Spaceforceofficer556@reddit
They took that from the IDF handbook
Alone-Experience9869@reddit
Boy oh boy. What's going on!! What's this world coming to!!
11448844@reddit (OP)
Yes yes, this is likely for liability moreso than admitting that the gun may be faulty but it's quite funny