any guess of why Singapore is replacing their (extremely cool) Ultimax-100s with the Colt IAR?
Posted by DerringerOfficial@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 34 comments
The_First_Curse_@reddit
America is doing this too with the stupid M27. I don't get it either. These things simply cannot stand in for a Light Machine Gun no matter how much people want to argue, and Light Machine Guns do inarguably have a place among a fireteam.
DerringerOfficial@reddit (OP)
I think replacing a belt fed LMG with a magazine fed automatic rifle makes a ton of sense and is very smart, but adopting an automatic rifle that doesn’t use the constant-recoil systems seems like a ridiculous wasted opportunity
The_First_Curse_@reddit
How though? We're talking 100 rounds vs a mere 30.
Internal-Hat9827@reddit
The Ultimax-100s in Singaporean military service are getting old and worn and needed to be replaced. The Colt IAR has a greater effective range than the Ultimax-100 and is lighter(4.32 Kg vs 4.75 Kg) and shorter. It's a more modern assault rifle overall so it's a good change.
Brilliant_Respond390@reddit
Standardization is a big one. Iirc, the ultimax uses its own proprietary magazines
sandalsofsafety@reddit
Then get the updated Ultimax that uses AR mags.
monsooncloudburst@reddit
But magazine sharing is still an issue since the standard issue rifle (SAR21) has its own proprietary mags.
DerringerOfficial@reddit (OP)
this is what I was thinking — shouldn't they develop either a new version of the Ultimax or SAR-21 that use the same mags?
Kagenlim@reddit
They have, according to my friend, theres two tiers of ultimaxes.
The shitty MK3s that require a hole drilled into the side of the stanag and the newer tactical version that doesn't need that
It's such a dumb decision and we are basically wasting the cash we spent to bring in good ol' James Sullivan to create the ultimax for us in the first place
Geopoliticalidiot@reddit
It may have been cheaper to buy new than try and develop a new gun that would basically be the same thing as an already adopted, well supported and supplied gun, not to mention they can use the same ammo as NATO and US forces in the event they work together.
WalkerTR-17@reddit
I would imagine we will see them move to an AR based platform in the near future
Rk_1138@reddit
Instead of carcinisation it’s ARcinisation
Aids649stoptakingit@reddit
No clue, but there are quite a few people discussing magazine capabilities along with picatinny rails.
According to the ST Kinetics website, they already have new versions of the Ultimax with those modifications. Not sure honestly the reasoning behind it, maybe it was getting too ex for STK to make them and the gov wanted something cheaper?
They might have found some mechanical failure/faults with the newer Ultimax 100 models, which was the case for the BR18 (which is being replaced by a new SAR according to the gov, when the BR 18 was slated to be the replacement) according to a youtube video I found which was in mandarin. Not sure the credibility but they mentioned how the forward ejecting mech was slightly too fragile for the gov's liking. So will not be surprised if their reasoning for not taking the new Ultimax models would be something along that line.
As a Singaporean about to enlist, was really a shame I can never get to fire this unless I go to some range somewhere
DerringerOfficial@reddit (OP)
Wait, so Singapore is sticking with their current assault rifle instead of the intended upgrade?
Aids649stoptakingit@reddit
Well not exactly.
They changed the intended upgrade from the BR 18 to the Next Gen SAR, with the BR 18 having been hinted way before the change in the SAW.
And for the time being, the SAR 21 will not be replaced. Maybe in a few years, but definitely not when I am in training.
ManOf1000Usernames@reddit
The ultimax is part of older doctrine of LMGs that means area denial via MG hosing the target. The SAW concept can do this, but has evolved to have an optic on it for pecking quick shots to as people pop their heads up. The ultimaxes neato recoil system doesnt make sense when pecking at people, only sustained fire. The article claiming longer effective range, despite using the same 5.56, is only possible because the IAR can mount an optic.
IAR has pic rails all over anyway for all sorts of other doodads, ultimax would need a retrofit program for this. IAR is also lighter so they can justify adding more crap to carry, both on the gun and in the pack.
Probably justified as a training thing since everybody learning a single AR15 based system is easiest.
"Well the US military made the move, so it must be a good idea!"
Last, but not least, the traditional reason of some supply officer cut a deal on the back end.
TacTurtle@reddit
IAR also has faster lock time, the Ultimax is open bolt.
ramen_poodle_soup@reddit
Less inclined to believe #5 is at play given Singapore’s record on public corruption.
ManOf1000Usernames@reddit
I am not making an explicit accusation, however international arms deals are historically rife with shady deals, it can never be fully discounted. It is too easy to deposit some money in a numbered bank account, only to be accessed years, sometimes decades later.
I agree that it is very unlikely for Singapore for bribery to be a part of it. However, such a deal need not be money based.
It could be career prestige. The higher level you go in an organization, the more politics you have to deal with, militaries are no exception. It is entirely possible that making a good choice and thus looking good will help an officer's career later. A well regarded name like Colt could fulfill this.
It also could be post-career based. Such a deal would make such a decision maker look good to the defense contractors later, so the dealmaker can act as a consultant once they retire. American and European defense contractors are not immune from this, of which Colt CZ fits both.
CombatEngineerADF@reddit
I work in the industry, most deals aren’t corrupt but definitely not 100% kosher even in countries with strict transparency and policies. I can’t speak for Singapore but I have worked with western partners and the corruption is surprisingly common if you dig below the surface.
paucus62@reddit
the receivers for the ultimax were probably very worn and if the factories don't exist anymore, it makes more sense (and is infinitely cheaper) to go with a new design.
Aids649stoptakingit@reddit
I presume the factory still exists since its supposed to be manufactured in singapore. Also if basing off that logic they would be replacing the SAR 21 now too (which they arent yet but in the future they will).
Dont quote me on this though, not sure where they are manufactured. However the SAR 21 is made of polymer (with reinforced metal etc) while the ultimax is metal so maybe the machining for ultimax too expensive for then now? Or the factory that they do for the ultimax is closed like you suspected, and the rifles are made in a diff factory lol
TheRealTwooni@reddit
Likely to tap into better parts availability.
DerringerOfficial@reddit (OP)
If that’s the case I’m surprised they don’t make more parts considering that the Ultimax is domestically manufactured
Worker_Ant_81730C@reddit
Maintaining domestic military firearms manufacturing for fairly small production volumes can be pretty expensive, compared to buying essentially mass market alternatives. Finland for example exited military firearms manufacturing (aside from sniper rifles) in the 1990s for cost reasons, although SAKO is now making a comeback.
thisghy@reddit
That is not an LMG.
DerringerOfficial@reddit (OP)
To be fair, the line between a magazine fed LMG and an automatic rifle is basically whatever your heart tells you
Grandmaster_C@reddit
Personally I like the term Light Support Weapon but I understand that basically all of these attempts at categorisation are arbitrary.
An example of this being the Chinese Type 56 being called a submachine gun.
MusicallyInhibited@reddit
We might slowly be seeing the end to the intermediate caliber LMG here. More and more nations are forgoing dedicated LMGs for beefed up versions of intermediate caliber rifles.
Frankly, I agree. I don't see the point of lugging around a huge machine gun that has the same effective range as your rifles. Two dudes equipped with these/a similar IAR could probably easily match the suppression of a dedicated LMG, all while being only slightly less mobile and versatile than a dedicated rifleman.
The UK has done similar and put their M249s back into inventory and have been fielding more M240s. And now the US is trialing the XM250 as a replacement for the M249, not to mention the marines widely adopting the M27. I'm seeing a pattern here.
Q-Ball7@reddit
Well, that and the 240s are getting to the end of their own service lives; sure, you can just keep changing the locking pieces, but the BAR was obsolete in the 1930s no matter how FN rearranges the internal components.
And at that point, there’s no small arm in US inventory that uses 7.62 NATO, so the switch to ~~7mm-08 +P+~~ 6.8x51 is not something totally off the wall.
marston82@reddit
Probably the same reason why the USMC dropped the m249 in favour of the Hk M27. Greater accuracy and versatility from an AR type platform.
paucus62@reddit
SOVL vs sovl less
monsooncloudburst@reddit
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/light-machine-gun-saf-colt-infantry-automatic-rifle-replace-saw-ultimax-100-4486041
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