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Why does Birmingham have bin strikes so much?

Posted by followtheheronhome@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 49 comments

I feel like when I hear about a bin strike, it's always in Birmingham. Why does Brum have so many bin strikes but nowhere else seems to?

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49 Comments

No_Earth_5912@reddit

Because they didn’t pay women equally and have been paying it back since. They did it to themselves.
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Commercial_Fig_4412@reddit

Shouldn’t of paid the money out. Whilst unfortunate they was underpaid, those elderly woman have bankrupt the city and for what ? So they can be rich for the last few years, the money will never be put back into the brum economy. Unbelievable mismanagement
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blondererer@reddit

If it was you/your family that had been underpaid for years, would you be ok to say not to bother with your share?
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Commercial_Fig_4412@reddit

Do I either 1.) push for money that my grandparents do not need, and that I will see very little of due to inheritance tax etc or 2.) get my bins collected weekly and not live in a cesspit, hard choice I’ll have to think on it
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Annual_History_796@reddit

They weren’t underpaid though. They were doing different jobs.
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ClimbsNFlysThings@reddit

What? I feel like I'm missing /s
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No_Earth_5912@reddit

You’re not. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/10/birmingham-city-council-agrees-deal-over-equal-pay-claims
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ClimbsNFlysThings@reddit

Sorry, I believe you, I'm missing the link to bin workers (the majority appear to be men)
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Tuarangi@reddit

The link is just a coincidence, bin men (and grave diggers) - jobs dominated by men - were given bonuses by the council which were not paid to jobs dominated by women like care workers and dinner ladies. The issue is that they were on the same pay grade (due to council incompetence) but were unfairly excluded from the bonus scheme. Due to the huge debts from paying back the claims the council went bankrupt, as part of the reduction in costs, they are trying to cut a role from the bin collection that no other council has, which entitled the drivers to £8k pay uplift - the role was created in part to head off a previous strike. The bin men are obviously not happy about losing this but there is also a lot of misinformation about the figures - the binmen claim an £8k pay cut - the council says nobody will lose money as they can have retraining for other roles, the truth is probably in the middle somewhere.
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ClimbsNFlysThings@reddit

Ahh, well then, sort of obviously they've screwed up. If there was no equity in the scheme then you reasonably do get hammered for the fact that job A tends to be men and job B tends to be women and Job A gets a bonus. Unfortunately we never seem to be able to have an all things on the table discussion about it.
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After-Anybody9576@reddit

It was one of those sex discrimination cases where women in totally different jobs to men claim they should earn as much as them, and the courts inexplicably rule in their favour. Same sort of thing the supermarkets are going through currently (where women sitting on tills think it's unfair they're not paid the same as men in warehouses, despite obviously not wanting to touch those jobs with a barge pole because the responsibilities, physicality and hours are totally different). Basically bankrupted the council because of the huge resulting payout covering backpay.
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bigandstupid79@reddit

I thought that it was a clause in the contract which caused it. Something around getting extra pay for inclement weather and conditions which was in all the contracts but only intend to be applied to those working outside. When it rained, the bin men got paid a bit extra, but the office workers didn't, even though it was also in the office workers contract to get the extra money, so they went to court to get it, and bankrupted the council after they had to meet the contractual obligation. I know that has simplified it far too much but wasn't it something along those lines rather than just a discrimination thing? I am happy to be put right, I haven't been following this closely.
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Tuarangi@reddit

>It was one of those sex discrimination cases where women in totally different jobs to men claim they should earn as much as them, and the courts inexplicably rule in their favour. No it wasn't, you should stop spreading this lie smearing the women. The council, through their own incompetence, put all workers like dinner ladies and bin men on the same sort of pay grade. [The contracts entitled refuse collectors and grave diggers to bonuses which were excluded from cooks, cleaners and care assistants](https://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/content/comment/birmingham-city-council-s-discriminatory-pay-practices-are-indicative-of-widespread-problems/) among 49 jobs affected (that is where the equal pay comes in - the jobs with bonuses were male dominated, the jobs without bonuses were female dominated). The women **did not demand equal pay**, what they were was **equal treatment** [so they could get bonuses as well](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/apr/28/pay-female-staff-birmingham-council). This arrangement meant the jobs like bin men would get huge bonuses up to 160% of their pay in some cases - bin men in the 90s were on £51k with the bonuses - while female dominated jobs got nothing (a woman on the same pay grade got £12k (with a 160% bonus they'd have got £31k - still less than the bin men which reflects their different roles) . When the women found out they were excluded from the bonus scheme, they went to court. It is literally nothing like the Asda contract nonsense which was a bizarre decision saying the checkout jobs were equal to warehouse ones - BCC women were not saying the jobs were equal, but rather they wanted bonuses which they were excluded from. The council knew in 1997 that there was a problem and kept quiet until an audit in 2007 pointed out the problem and made it worse by [falsely claiming in a tribunal](https://archive.is/wip/5d6nM) that the bonuses were a reward for productivity, due to market forces and to discourage absenteeism which the tribunal described as: >a fig leaf to conceal a desire to pay the refuse workers very significantly more than their basic pay, and in that sense was a sham The tribunal also found that the bonuses were simply rewarding the workers for doing nothing more than their job (like pay a bonus so that you'd turn up to do the job you were paid for already...). They compounded it by appealing court cases for three years until the Supreme Court told them to pay up. Ask yourself this - if you worked for a firm and should have been entitled to a bonus but weren't and then found out that you'd not had the bonus because the money was used to give other people, *on the same contract*, the money instead, would you just accept that?
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ClimbsNFlysThings@reddit

Ahh. OK. I see. I missed the point. Unless the council uses a uniform grading system for roles like the civil service I don't see how different jobs don't get different unless the council has made arbitrary decisions about pay.
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After-Anybody9576@reddit

Tbf I don't think any of it makes any sense. Courts recently ruled that sitting on a customer service desk at Asda is explicitly equivalent to logistics work in a warehouse. The law around this issue really makes zero sense and the logic exists in a bubble of its own.
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Lunaspoona@reddit

In fairness having previously worked on a checkout, the amount of abuse you get from customers and managers deserves the same rate as someone lifting stuff, but being able to be by themselves listening to music with no customer interaction! If I were able to tell a customer to grow up, get over themselves or fuck off, I'd have been happier with the lower pay but unfortunately wasn't allowed to do that.
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After-Anybody9576@reddit

I mean, anyone who actually feels that way is free to apply for a job in logistics... But the very same gulf in demographics between the jobs that apparently justifies the lawsuit is just a symptom of how different the roles are. Ngl when I worked in a shop, I'd doubt half the front-end department staff were even physically capable of taking a role in a stock-working department or logistics.
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Lunaspoona@reddit

Also goes the other way, if you think the logistics is harder, you're free to apply for the 'easier' check out job at the same rate
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After-Anybody9576@reddit

But it's not the same rate, that's the whole point of the lawsuit. So then the question becomes, why are all these women who are suing still working in a supermarket for a lower rate if they genuinely think they're doing the same job? Surely they'd just move if they genuinely thought the jobs were no different and they'd just get a flat pay rise...
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Nice-Substance-gogo@reddit

Go get a job in the warehouse then. Get a forklift ticket.
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iambeherit@reddit

As happened in Glasgow.
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Nice-Substance-gogo@reddit

They don’t do the same job.
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Annual_History_796@reddit

That’s not what happened though.
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Anal_Dirge_Prat@reddit

Warrington Council had a similar issue a year or so ago. The arrogance from the top of Warrington Council makes me believe that it was their fault. Both Warrington and Birmingham Council's are in dire financial straits as well. Couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
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MagicElf755@reddit

I think one of the biggest issues is that it's politicians who handle the money and they have absolutely no financial sense at all. For example warrington Council is £2 billion in debt (I think) and the other year decided it was time to repaint the golden gates near the town centre. Also they invested £20 million into a business park for a return for a £1 million return (this will need fact checking)
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Anal_Dirge_Prat@reddit

It'll all come out in the government's audit process, mysteriously held back up to now. This says it all about Broomhead : “We’re not in debt. We’ve made £1.8bn of investment. All of the investments we’ve made have been secured against property, or 95% have been against property." Source : https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/broomhead-bullish-about-warringtons-1-8bn-debt/ Like you say, completely devoid of commercial acumen.
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Jack-Rabbit-002@reddit

I'd say I've counted more Junior Doctor strikes especially last year It's just this bin strike has been pretty major Thankfully my area hasn't been that affected but I am on the outskirts of South Brum
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Imaginary_Will_9479@reddit

Those NHS strikes were significant, it's the main reason waiting times went through the roof. You'll note now the strike action has stopped waiting times are reducing again.
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Jack-Rabbit-002@reddit

Oh No I was completely in support of them man I mean we as a country should do everything we can to protect the NHS I mean my Mom is literally in their yearly of late and you can see the strain and shortages they face.
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Imaginary_Will_9479@reddit

Was in their myself, inc. admission. A&E was very clearly overwhelmed, but the cardiac unit seemed OK. Hard to tell from the outside.
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No_Potato_4341@reddit

The council Is bankrupt and you're having to be responsible for over 1 million peoples rubbish.
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Dapper_Big_783@reddit

Where has all the money been going?
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Imaginary_Will_9479@reddit

They lost a huge equal pay dispute. they were paying female dominated roles (cleaners, cooks, careworkers) less than those in male dominated roles (binmen, road workers). They lost the case, and have a truly enormous payout they are struggling to cover, £750m. They also invested a huge amount in an IT system, generally a failure, which cost them about £100m. This is timing with government cuts in council budgets.
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ZonedV2@reddit

A ridiculous equal pay law suit that is nonsensical
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No_Potato_4341@reddit

Into the city centre to make it look nicer I think. In fairness they've done a very good job of that but yeah other areas are being neglected as a result.
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Dapper_Big_783@reddit

If it’s not financially sustainable now then how will the cost of the upkeep in the city centre be maintained without increasing costs for the residents in the future. Are to residents now to expect year on year increases?
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WhereasMindless9500@reddit

Id strike if I had to collect some of the stuff in the images, sofas, bed frames, vats of oil. Seems Birmingham residents expect a different level of service to everywhere else.
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DadVan-Soton@reddit

Because they don’t pay enough.
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Super_Swordfish_6948@reddit

Council is bankrupt (because of an equal pay liability ironically enough) and the binmen aren't happy with their terms. Council are trying to cut their pay to A equalise their pay with some women and B to balance the books. A fascinating state of affairs tbh.
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bigandstupid79@reddit

The whole pay thing looked to me like they had an amateur write the contracts of their employees and then were suprised with the results. To try to change it now and pay them less seems to be the wrong way to approach it. But if it was my rubbish piling up I doubt very much I would support the unions. I feel for all those people who are affected.
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Razzforshort@reddit

Aren't the council broke because they paid a billion quid to women who felt they were underpaid in the 80s and 90s?
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stvvrover@reddit

Because they haven’t had the time to dip in them all yet
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AppropriateGene8057@reddit

Birmingham has high poverty, high homelessness, large migrant communities, high levels of unemployment, high levels of gang related crime, loss of industrial and manufacturing businesses. These are large groups of people who depend on support from the state to get by. The council then have debts mentioned above based on the practices. The bin strike is unions using the conditions above to press the council on a recalibration of their wages. It’s a power play. Unfortunately the affluent areas can afford to have waste removed privately. While the poorer areas are now plagued with rats, which will begin entering homes either when the bin strike is over and food is scarce or as their population increases. This will bring disease, illness and stress to people already in difficult conditions. Thus increasing pressure on NHS and public services whilst also widening animosity between the haves and have nots.
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ToffeePoppet@reddit

I thin it’s just one on going dispute. The Council are in serious financial trouble. They are trying to get rid of the position of Waste and Recycling Collection Officer. That role gets paid £6-8k more a year than the basic ‘bin man.’ The council wants to demote or transfer the WRCOs to save money and head off equal pay claims in the future as bin collectors are generally men, and cleaner (lower paid) are generally women. The unions are trying to get a fair deal for the people who would lose jobs/money, they can’t agree what is fair with the council so there is a strike. It could happen in quite a few other cities in the coming months.
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TheNotSpecialOne@reddit

They cocked up with differences in gender pay. They are paying it back but it's made them bankrupt.
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After-Anybody9576@reddit

This latest set of strikes is kind of special because it's not actually about general pay or conditions. In this round, it's because Birmingham employs just under 200 of its binmen in a special health &safety type role which doesn't exist elsewhere. The council tried to get rid of this role (bringing it in line with other councils), which is what kicked off these strikes.
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Western_Presence1928@reddit

It's all about pay at the end of the day.
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niteninja1@reddit

Largest council in europe
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