It's surprising to hear that Linus Torvalds doesn't have an elitist attitude to Linux
Posted by ardouronerous@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 533 comments
A Linux elitist is someone who holds a superior attitude towards Linux users. This attitude can manifest as a dismissive or condescending behavior towards new or less experienced users or even experienced users who likes to use of GUIs or simpler distros like Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora, and preferring CLIs and more technically demanding setups that requires you to compile all programs from source.
As far as I can tell, Linus Torvalds isn't an elitist and Linux elitists would probably not like him too, since he admits to not use Debian, Arch, or Gentoo because he prefers distributions that are easier to install and configure. In an interview, he mentioned that he doesn't like Linux distros that are hard to install and configure, as he wants a distro that just works out of the box so he can move on with his life and focus on kernel development. He has stated that he never installs "hard" distros like Debian, Arch or Gentoo, which is known for its requirement to compile all programs from source. Torvalds prefers Fedora, which he uses on most of his computers, as it has been fairly good for supporting PowerPC and keeps things easy to install and reasonably up-to-date. He also appreciates Ubuntu for making Debian more user-friendly.
This makes me feel better about myself. I've been a Linux user from 2012, and I don't know how to compile programs from source and I prefer GUI over Terminal for much of my day to day life. Just like Linus, I just want a Linux distro that works out of the box and gives me no headaches to set up.
Creepy_Reindeer2149@reddit
It's because Linus has engineered legit technology (Git as well) and has nothing to prove.
I think a lot of the elitism comes from people who aren't actually developing things, thus it makes sense that their greatest technical achievement & source of pride would be an act of mere consumption, like installing Arch/Gentoo.
At the end of the day though, those people are still just consumers of someone else's tool though, just like an annoying rabid Mac fanboy albiet a more technical one
Visbroek@reddit
Couldn't have said it better myself
RagingAnemone@reddit
I use Linux at work. I use it at home too. Not a windows or Mac machine anywhere. I’m definitely an elitist when it comes to that. I don’t think I would take a job if it involved windows.
But I’m also a developer. I’ve got no elitism there. I’m just hoping to make something useful for people.
I don’t know, maybe Linus has some elitism in him for office suites or photo editors. But I can understand him having a very open attitude toward Linux.
debian_fanatic@reddit
Nice! I use Linux at home (and work) as well, and my son is exclusively on Linux. And he's a gamer. My wife is the only Windows user in our house, and it's because she's a (Physics) teacher and she needs Office (formulas, etc.).
I can't even imagine doing development work on a Windows machine at this point; it's probably the reason why "Linux mode" on Windows exists. I'm just happy that I only have to perform ONE Windows update. Honestly, this STILL isn't fixed? The only time I ever cuss is when I have to work on a Windows machine.
Pacomatic@reddit
"Linux Mode" is WSL
Pacomatic@reddit
I hope to someday only keep Windows around for the purposes of cross-platform software devvelopment and nothing else.
And, evven then, I'll probably use a VM instead, so I won't need any actual Windows devvices.
je386@reddit
For me, ubuntu GNU/Linux is the OS of choice, but I don't care what OS, even non unixoid, others use.
An OS is a tool, and a tool must fit to the task and to the user.
As a developer, I create web based or backend services mainly, so OS is irrelevant again. I even supplement Android App development with kotlin multiplatform development to gain multiplatform abilities.
Actedpie@reddit
Yeah, MacOS and Windows just have different priorities than Linux, and cater to different target demographics.
Devil-Eater24@reddit
While that's true, I think some Linux distros could be more suitable for a large number of Windows/Mac users, and they continue using Windows/Mac from a point of ignorance, whether it be because of an incorrect idea of what Linux is(that using and managing it is a highly technical task) or because they don't even know there is an alternative(both Windows and Mac come preinstalled in computers after all)
Dry_Calligrapher_286@reddit
Once again: macOS is UNIX. Not UNIX-like, but certified UNIX.
Devil-Eater24@reddit
Never said it wasn't. Idk how that's relevant here lol
Yangu_Hury@reddit
Yep. No noobs know what a UNIX is.
SkyL9ne@reddit
I'd bet most Windows users would have no idea what a distro even is and think Linux is a single OS. Highly doubt most have any idea of what a kernel even is or does. I admit I knew the term but didn't understand what it really means or does as a kid in the Windows Vista and early versions of Windows 7.
We also only had very limited and slow internet from the USB modem sticks with 20GB per month for the whole family and it was like 300-1500 KBps before unlimited WiFi became widespread in the country in like 2014 so couldn't really try it or download anything bigger than 50-100 MB max at a time so I would just play around with Git-Bash / MSYS2 and Cygwin64 which all had extremely limited capabilities at the time at least
Yangu_Hury@reddit
I used to use curl to retry after each conection fail. It was available on Windows. I started on Windows Vista and after Windows 7 Start I come to Ubuntu. I'm on Debian until today.
mofomeat@reddit
You're not wrong, but another factor is that for a lot of people like that, Linux doesn't really offer them anything. Yeah, we can all talk about its superiority, but at the end of the day what they use is what they're familiar with, and it works for them. Switching over to something else and re-learning that doesn't really offer them any benefit that they can see.
Bogus007@reddit
They know, but it takes time and effort to change habits or understand the in and outs of a program you were taught in at your university. And for some it can be too much of a hassle. Eg my gf works in the film business and she was taught in all the Adobe „crap“. I am since 14 years entirely on Linux and tried many times to find alternatives that could have convinced her to step away from Apple. No chance. Why? Because she knows well how to work with all the Adobe programs and many of her colleagues use the same. Now imagine if you would be the only one who suddenly starts to use a different OS and a different program, and problems arise. Who do you want to ask? Who is paying you the loss in time?
Devil-Eater24@reddit
Of course, like I said, there are a lot of people for whom Windows or Mac are the perfect solution. But I don't think most computer users today are developers or gamers or use adobe or office suite anymore. There are a significant number of people who turn on their computer to primarily use a web browser. These people would benefit from linux as it would be lighter(thus prolonging the life of their machine) and more private
Also, I don't think it's particularly hard for most people to change the setup they're used to. Where I live, Apple products are seen as a status symbol, so people often buy a Mac to show off their wealth. I know many people who changed from Windows to Mac, and they have never had any problem with adapting to a new ecosystem. I don't think these people would have any problem with some user-friendly distro like Mint or Ubuntu
giftedearth@reddit
I can't speak for MacOS as I've never used it, but something like Windows probably has to exist. A locked-down OS focusing on ease of use above all else is a good thing, because most people aren't particularly tech-savvy and just want convinience. The problem is that MS are taking advantage of that to push crapware onto their captive audience. Windows users deserve better.
WildManner1059@reddit
And then in the background, MS has been opening up and making the system better to configure and manage.
Just have to get them to stop forcing changes for the sake of change.
thedanyes@reddit
Has to exist but for 99% of people that is Android or iOS. Windows is a dying niche and it shows in the fact Microsoft is using it as an ad platform and de-prioritizing new feature development.
timthetollman@reddit
You more closely described MacOS than Windows there
mixedd@reddit
Try Windows on corporate laptop where sysadmins closed the fuck everything :D fighting every day with them at work
Atlasatlastatleast@reddit
It’s easier to lock down MacOS
mixedd@reddit
We're testing Mac's right now at work, and I will say that I found way more workarounds than on locked Windows machines, but that's down to our security team, as they are more proficient on fucking life's of Windows users.
timthetollman@reddit
Oh I have.
First dayml..k.kkkm.okmkk.œk9mok.9m
syklemil@reddit
Possibly also ChromeOS.
I think the main selling points of Windows are
You can get a shinier experience by spending more money on Apple products, and a decent & cheap "I just need a browser, really" experience from ChromeOS. And lots of windows stuff, including games, runs fine on Linux these days.
Actedpie@reddit
To me, Windows is a jack of all trades, an OS not as locked down as MacOS that’s still easy to use and can handle a wide variety of tasks, from gaming, to art, to editing, and everything in between. To me, MacOS (which i have to use rn because my old laptop broke) specializes on UX and seemingly focused on having a simplified OS for people who aren’t tech savvy at all but also want something that looks nice, and professionals who don’t need to mess around with anything through tools like terminal.
proton_badger@reddit
Yeah I worked my career in embedded software, lots of very experienced people. Most used either Windows or Ubuntu. There was never any talk about other devs choice of OS, nobody cared, we were focused on the work.
RepentantSororitas@reddit
Honestly for development the difference between linux and mac are pretty minimal.
Just having a unix-like terminal is the biggest thing.
Unless you are going very deep into something like neovim, you are doing a lot of work in an IDE or a editor like vscode anyways.
atiqsb@reddit
Do you use video acceleration / GPU features?
RagingAnemone@reddit
yes
atiqsb@reddit
Is your Intel or AMD processor?
RagingAnemone@reddit
AMD
atiqsb@reddit
Do you use video acceleration on browser?
RagingAnemone@reddit
yes
atiqsb@reddit
Sorry about so many questions. Is it fedora? do you have rpmfusion installed for multi-media?
Objective_Baby_5875@reddit
That's not elitist. That's dogmatic. Elitist is something entirely different. 99% of Linux hardcore people are not in fact elitist but pure dogmatic people, like hardcore Christians.
Creepy_Reindeer2149@reddit
Yeah I'm a snob and the reasons linux is better are Objectively True. But there's a million guys rocking Visual Studio in Windows 11 who can run circles around me technically
RagingAnemone@reddit
Sure. Someone always knows more karate. Doesn't mean I'm not a snob about it.
lelddit97@reddit
that's not elitism - windows is often a worse tool for the same job which costs you minutes every day
changeLynx@reddit
Sounds beautiful. You are living the dream!
Max-P@reddit
Some people are also obsessed about "using the best", because to them "using the best" is the same concept as "being the best" and they base their entire social status on it. Goes for users of all OSes really, you can really offend someone just showing them how easy a certain task is on the other operating system. Their ego is a direct extension of being the best that uses only the best, so proving they're not using the best hits the ego too. It's so weird.
See: All the Kali users on Instagram and TikTok posting videos of neofetch and htop and cmatrix acting all cool but clearly have never hacked anything or probably have never used any of the tools Kali preinstalls.
Also see: more TikTok/Instagram users showing off their $5000 PC and being like "I'm a very serious pro gamer, look at my gear".
Also see: iOS and blue/green bubbles, except this time it's not based on technical merits but financial ones. The ones that only do blue bubbles is not just because of iMessage, it's about having the expensive iPhones.
Ironically the true pros tend to be humble because they know what's really the best tool for the job. I use Arch, I love Arch, yet I've barely ever recommended it to anybody. Not because gatekeeping, not because I don't think they're not as smart as I am, simply because it's not what they need.
Jethro_Tell@reddit
I’m just now replacing a laptop that I’ve been rocking as my daily work/personal for a decade. I wish I could rice it but if I’m honest, there’s all sorts of shit that I installed in the heat of the moment to fix something or build something that I’ve never learned how to use or properly configured. Or things where the ground shifted under me and dropped a feature I was using or w/e.
Lots of stupid shit, like my key bindings got out of sync on my DE so they don’t match my desktop and then I haven’t fixed it because I’ve been about to replace this laptop for like 3 years. There’s a bug in my vim config where I can’t get on the outside of the paren in a bash case statement. Been meaning to get to that for 18 months.
On the other hand, I spend almost all day in a full screen tmux and she boots and runs without fail every day so? I guess I got my mileage out of it.
I appreciate when people make it all nice and what not but I can barely find the time to do the most basic shit because I’m busy building shit.
RiskyChris@reddit
glad im not the only one who rolls with fucked up configs. one of these days ill fix it, id love all my machines to feel identical
jwillp@reddit
after many decades with linux as my daily driver, the most important UI tweak I find is in the accessibility settings, to scale up the font sizes. it's funny how priorities change as you age.
Pacomatic@reddit
The only time I scale up my fonts is when I need to read Japanese, because their stupid language is too dense for my screen to show the kanji without it all being grey pixxels.
Then again, I am young.
Jethro_Tell@reddit
I've got a new machine sitting here that I've been poking at here and again for a few days. It can be really frustrating to have the automation to build out a fleet of 10k hosts in an afternoon and have to google the install settings you like to use on your machine.
I often learn something and turn it into code/docs for my employer and then immediately forget about it. So I have an entire PKI/secure boot/ full automated build system that I run on all our boxes at work and I'm over here poking my new box trying to remember how to configure the bootloader.
I have automated my full install and probably done this evening and I'm hoping to rebuild my laptop/desktop/server/kids laptops with the same config and then ansible them going forward.
I think the difference this time is that I bought this machine in December in anticipation of tariff drama but I don't quite need it yet so I've had some time to work on it here and there instead of needing to get it build so I can keep working.
Pacomatic@reddit
You were wsie to buy it before you actually needed it.
We may not havve tariff drama, but that does not mean it'd havve been cheap had you bought it now...
WildManner1059@reddit
+1 ansible full config for admin/dev workstation
Just don't forget to put comments in your role for the cool/clean/tricky tasks that you stole from google.
RiskyChris@reddit
thank u for jogging my memory. i also bought some laptops this winter, and i forgot my goal was to have the lab setup that i could wipe the machines and start over without breaking a sweat. i am not good at keeping my linux installs organized. 3 of my machines have all kinds of dumbass software installed when i was trying to flash my wifi bulbs
Max-P@reddit
I used to have my setups pretty riced up, but nowadays I basically run stock KDE. My desktop uses a theme because it's how I did it years ago and stuck with it, but my laptop is just plain default Breeze and all.
Eventually the novelty kind of wears off, and I'm busy doing actual work on those machines.
Jethro_Tell@reddit
yeah, I ran awesomeWM for a long time on under-powered machines. But the combination of having beefy machines, moving from a 3x 1080p to 1x4k monitor setup, moving to tmux instead of dozens of terminals and realizing it is unlikely to get ported to wayland in a timely fashion made me think that it might not be worth re-building my config and workflow. Any more, I just run a terminal with tmux and a browser and then occasionally I might have a file browser or one other app for a short time.
I just ended up porting all my awesome key binds to gnome these days which is fine. Nothing special but it loads a terminal and I can alt+tab between terminal and browser which supports about 90% of my workflow.
Firm-Ad-7978@reddit
Oh, I've got a story about installing Kali first.
I messed up while trying to install Debian, so I gave up and installed Kali first.
Now, to be clear, I do have Debian now. But let's be honest — Kali and Ubuntu were the smoothest installs, and I will forever love them for it. Debian? Minus one point.
See, I’m not a distro-swapper, I’m a distro-collector. Though, Kali has been surprisingly simple, while Debian just...hasn’t? It’s the same energy as programming languages — C, Java, C++? All easy for me. Python? Rough at first, but now second nature (once I got over my hatred for it).
And now? I’m failing my Introduction to JavaScript course. Meanwhile, SQL, XML, JSON, PHP, Node.js, and even non-programming languages like HTML/CSS are solid for me. Oh, and that popular TypeScript variant I can’t remember right now? That one, too.
Anyway, back to the story. My professor, who was trying their best, explained to me (and the class) why we should install JavaScript—wait, I mean Debian—because “Kali is for hac—”.
And that’s when I revealed what was hiding in my laptop sleeve.
A book.
"Linux Basics for Hackers."
The irony? The last thing I want to do is become an ethical hacker. It’s too fun, and I already have way too much on my to-do list. Like, taking over the world with robots. Forget, Linux (and hacking). I want an apocalypse.
Firm-Ad-7978@reddit
You know for someone who didn't jump on the AI trend because of their former elitism and stubbornness (courtesy of being an author) weren't you too smug about trying to jailbreak your friend's discord bots because the temptation was too strong? And yes, I'm aware that I'm talking to myself.
Oh, that reminds me of another thing. Configuring routers and switches is really fun, and I hate how subnetting is becoming something akin to sudoku to me. Now, all I want to do is print subnetting worksheets to do before bedtime and during breakfast.
What other things do I know? Scratch is basic stuff for kids, so I wouldn't really count it. But it is something. I want to learn assembly, instead of JS.
Yeah, I think that's all I know that I can remember. I messed up with GIT once, so I'm going to need to psychologically prepare myself, before I try again. :(
Ah, the typesetting language was some sort of offspring of LaTex. And I've tried MATLAB once or twice.
I don't feel like this all really much, though. These days, my tech design course (i miss you AUTOCAD) and that grade 7 science class project on building a cardboard elevator run by a hydraulic pulley system have come more in handy, but that's because of my technical communications course.
Heck, technical communications is why my art has been rapidly improving. Does the math add up??? And let's not forget how apparently discrete math improves philosophy. I'm not going to explain that.
Wait, does studying linguistics for discrete math in my former com sci program count?
I feel like I may have underestimated the amount of skills and knowledge I have. Okay, so now I'm starting to see the difference between selective memory and amnesia.
YA'LL WHAT THE FUCK.
"What’s next? Suddenly remembering you mastered quantum computing in your sleep? Realizing you've secretly been a cybersecurity expert this whole time?" - Copilot
I ain't no expert, but I'm not a beginner either, at least when it comes to information security and it's branch cybersecurity. 💀
This reminds me that I still haven't gotten back to reading that research paper on designing banks.
I'm going to stop now because I feel like I'm going to be trapped here forever, if I keep remembering shit.
__Yi__@reddit
Off topic but about 6 years ago when I was hardly a developer, my first contribution to open source was a two-line “-k” option patch to cmatrix. I had no idea how PR works so when the maintainer requested changes I just closed my PR and opened a new one. Funny how no one said anything about my amateur behavior.
CptBartender@reddit
To me, that's more of a 'misclick' than a 'screwup'. You didn't even rewrite history :P
Also, sometimes it truly is easier to just create a new PR.
supenguin@reddit
I think every PR I’ve seen from someone new to Git does this at first.
Any decent person is likely to just tell you just update the existing one next time and it’s no big deal.
Masterflitzer@reddit
you don't think it would've been nice to point out the proper way?
ThomasterXXL@reddit
Probably because everyone is doing git wrong, and the ones that don't, screwed up so bad they swore to never again git it wrong.
Ashamed-Dog-8@reddit
It's about UX.
And for some its easier to iMessage people and have some form pf E2EE Messaging instead of asking a normie to download an app.
The average person does not want to install additional software, especially ones that they do not care for.
Bakoro@reddit
The humble people tend to take a "standing on the shoulders of giants" point of view.
Everything we have today is so wildly complicated. It takes a truly astounding global process to make computer parts, the theory everything is built on goes back hundreds of years, and it's taken tens of thousands of people to develop the collection of software we rely on.
I would challenge anyone to "start from scratch" starting with a computer. Develop a language, write the compiler, write an operating system with your language, get graphics onto a screen, and then take a moment to think about all the firmware you didn't have to deal with to interact with the computer, and you already have the benefit of having a working operating system to make the new one.
During my computer engineering degree I touched upon almost all of the stages, including CPU design, and holy shit, it's so much stuff.
Any one thing is enough to fill up a whole career, to fill up lifetimes.
Atlasatlastatleast@reddit
It bothers me how much stuff I’ll never be able to know. It’s a struggle daily, because I have 100000 things I want to learn and end up learning nothing
kokoroshita@reddit
Well said man!
Nightishaman@reddit
And then there’s me who wants to try everything out. I have Mac OS on my laptop, a PC with Windows and Fedora dual boot and I often try out other distributions just for fun in virtual machines.
SkyL9ne@reddit
Arch is great for learning about how stuff works and troubleshooting and fixing issues. It's not good if you're either not interested in learning or you already know anything you could really learn as I'd imagine any kernel developer would already know everything except maybe some distro specific stuff.
It's pointless if you're not trying to learn either just wanting to do basic stuff like web browsing or doing work stuff with LibreOffice. I'd imagine kernel developers don't want to waste time on stuff like that and just want it to work easy, be stable and be a top 5 most popular / commonly used distro so they're all ready to go and has a lot of support and fixes for stuff and not needing to mess with anything yourself usually or needing to do any troubleshooting yourself mostly.
Creepy_Reindeer2149@reddit
Yeah the amount of tutorial views for "how to install Kali" are like 50x greater than any content about actually using it once it's installed
Flexing neofetch is like a humblebrag insta post about running a marathon but it just shows you at the starting line instead of the finish line
AshuraBaron@reddit
I mean it's a huge basis of marketting. You want to buy Nike's because X athlete was in the commercial wearing them or wears them during the game. You want to use X phone or computer because an influencer or streamer you like uses that product. It's definitely a "if I get this thing I will be just like this person I look up to." Everyone is suceptible to this too. Either conciously or subconciously.
Aggitating that into fandom is just a win for a product. Even free ones. No pro is going to say the tools are what them so good. Shoes don't make a good basketball player and Kali Linux doesn't make someone a good hacker. It's just the tool to complete the job at hand and it was that persons own skill and knowledge that makes them good at what they do.
I think dunning-kruger acts a bit of a trap here too. That once that item is acquired they will be good. And just pretending to be good is a whole lot easier than learning and practice. There are some deep sociological reasons for all this but that's probably a whole different conversation for another place.
Lawnmover_Man@reddit
I mean... to be fair... they were told that this is how it goes by marketing. Sadly, they figuratively and literally buy it. Be a good little gearwheel in the system, get your bullshit share of money, and buy things to make you feel better. No need to develop skills for this, just exist in the system and pretend.
Thermatix@reddit
I was once required to try doing some pen testing using Kali on our web apps (a while back for a company I worked at) it was... interesting; I decided Pen-Testing was not for me and I'm glad I didn't have to do it again :P
shogun77777777@reddit
How long did it take you to get a system fully up and running how you want it with NixOS? I want to try it but I’m not sure I went to spend endless hours getting it configured
Creepy_Reindeer2149@reddit
There was never a huge sudden learning curve for me because I just incrementally used Nix for packages in WSL Debian and then slowly expanded the scope of how I used it
Home-manager was the gateway drug for me, and I wholeheartedly suggest starting there- handling user-level configuration like application installation and aliases in a single home.nix file
Then recently I got interested in going full blown NixOS + KDE as daily driver. I was able to transfer all my settings from Debian to NixOS very easily becasue of that, but it took 2 days of concerted, tiring effort to deal with stuff like KDE I hadn't encountered before
NGL I broke it at one point and had to do fresh install because the ability to rollback did not fix it like I expected. But because it's fully declarative it was very quick to catch up again. Had I been version controlling my nixos folder though it would have been fully unnecessary and probably 1 day
WildManner1059@reddit
Before live disks, this was the norm. Install, break, reinstall, tinker, reinstall for different options, then hop to the next distro and do it all over again.
It gives you a depth of knowledge that's hard to beat, but you have to REALLY want it to devote the time.
Now you can leverage virtualization, snapshots, and automation to test out new things at every level. The depth of knowledge is learned at a different level, namely the tools you use.
So different times, right?
shogun77777777@reddit
Thank you for the response! I’ll give home-manager a try and go from there
CaptainStack@reddit
/r/rareinsults
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
It's a shame that such a statement would be considered rare. We need more people saying that.
zladuric@reddit
Orban insult. It's a simple statement.
WildManner1059@reddit
Oh it's an implied insult.
And it makes be feel better because I have a bit of imposter syndrome because I usually use RHEL or Rocky or AL.
But then again I'm a sysadmin/devops engineer/system integrator, so what the company uses is what I use, typically.
UselessButTrying@reddit
True, but It may be insulting to hear for those it applies to
kokoroshita@reddit
Yeah fire
psaux_grep@reddit
Converts are mostly always the more outspoken and dogmatic ones.
Be it religion or substitutes for religion.
I think a lot of us can think back to when we had recently fallen in love with Linux and how we would spend time telling the world about it and talking about how superior it was.
Or how we probably fell in love with a certain distro and how that distro may have helped cement our understanding of Linux, of operating systems - and in turn or passion for it.
For me my first love was Slackware. One of the daddy’s of Linux and the OG difficult distro. I was probably unbearable as a teenager.
Might still be ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But now I do appreciate things that let me focus on my job or my spare time. It was a different thing when my spare time hobby was compiling stuff from source.
mofomeat@reddit
I was pretty unbearable in my early Linux and UNIX days. I kinda laff about it now, but I'm so glad I grew out of that within a year or so.
syklemil@reddit
Another part of it is just teenagers and how people change as they age. Some people have their emotions turned up to 11, and it's pretty common when we're young.
Discovering something new-to-you and neat and being enthusiastic is pretty good, too. Anyone can age into the grumpy sort that doesn't like their boat rocked, who isn't interested in learning anything new or watching the world change. And I do get it for people in stressful life situations—but for a lot of us, we probably could stand to be more open to new experiences.
franklyvhs@reddit
Hits the nail on the head 💯
aew3@reddit
Back when I used Linux on my personal laptop, I ended up on Arch after having used Debian derivatives mostly. The big reason to use arch is that if you’re a tinker wanting to install lots of little, new bits of software to heavily customise your workflow and desktop, its actually easier on Arch vs Ubuntu/Fedora. Firstly, aur makes a lot of this stuff automated to install instead of manual, but Arch is also a lot less likely to break when to try to install unpackaged software that needs dependancies that may not even be in the repositories of other distros. Flatpak is rarelt a solution as this stuff tends to need to integrate with the system beyond what flatpak can offer. Anyway, these days I use a Macbook because the hardware is excellent, I have a unix-like shell, and theres a big enough community of devs to supply enough tweaks to keep me going. Alfred for example, is my favourite launcher, and I used just about every launcher that supported Linux. The only real shortfall is the window manager, but Amethyst is juuuust good enough to tide me over.
Getabock_@reddit
Indeed. I’m also a dev and Arch is so much easier than Debian for me… except the damn installation, which is not “hard” but I’d never be able to remember all the steps and it takes too long. But what’s great on Arch is that I can get a lib like SDL3 and just install almost the newest version straight from the package manager.
_pseudacris_@reddit
There's always EndeavourOS.
dcherryholmes@reddit
The only think I keep tripping over with vanilla arch is where to stick the boot partition if I'm dual-booting. I just can't wrap my brain around it for some reason. But if it's just a straight linux install? Vanilla arch is easy, with or without the install script.
Interesting-Sun5706@reddit
You need to try archinstall script
smile_e_face@reddit
Absolutely. I've never understood the Arch elitism, but I'll always have a special place in my heart for the distro for two reasons:
Also, there's archinstall now, so getting up and running is way easier.
kokoroshita@reddit
Curious for examples on #2 if you have time.
LittleSeneca@reddit
Can confirm. I own a software company. I use base Ubuntu. I kind of chuckle when people get really haughty about hardware and software. Just use the best product for the job you're trying to accomplish.
Flip side, I enjoy distro hopping and there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying a different flavor of Linux.
Fun_Olive_6968@reddit
100% this, I've been a Linux user for almost 30 years, professionally for 22 years. I find most of the "elites" are 3-5 year Linux home users.
Those of us that dealt with slackware back in the day, compiling kernels and php on deadrat 4 etc don't have those same hangups.
Personally I use Ubuntu on all my stuff, Its because I want to use line x to do things, spending time tinkering getting my desktop working is something I left behind at the lab parties of the late 90's
Scandiberian@reddit
You just managed to burn Linux users, Apple product lovers and Rolex owners all in one fell swoop.
henrythedog64@reddit
To be fair, a large amount of linux users are developers.
LTFGamut@reddit
One could argue that Linux itself is legit technology (controversial opinion).
Catboyhotline@reddit
I see it as deliberately making their work harder for themselves just to prove they're "better" than everyone else
I'm gen Z and work in a predominantly gen X industry and I see that fucked up philosophy on the daily, we have a myriad of tools that make tasks easier and more time efficiently, but I'm quite often looked down on by my peers for using them because it means I'm not working as hard as them
Dwagner6@reddit
100%. It's always some professional consumer acting like this. Like audiophiles.
GTRxConfusion@reddit
Totally agree 100%, great take.
Back when I was a kid I thought I was so cool for using arch.
Finally went back to cachy recently after many years of windows + actual software dev and I don’t understand why I ever cared that much lol.
It’s just a tool that you use to do real work with, some people turn their OS into their identity and it is so cringe.
Don’t you guys have things to actually work on inside your fancy riced out install?
Creepy_Reindeer2149@reddit
Yeah in the Obsidian & Notion communities there are so many people showing their theme explaining the 100+ plugins they use for notes but they never seem to be more productive or accomplished than normies who just rawdog Apple Notes
jerrygreenest1@reddit
NixOS is the best by the way
I have a server on NixOS
Grand-Function-2081@reddit
i use arch because like the color blue :3
gesis@reddit
This was the sentiment I came to share, however you said it much better than I would have.
Linus is too busy with shit to do, to get into nerd fights on the internet.
Bubbaprime04@reddit
A certain YouTube influencer comes to mind, but I am too scared to say the name
thassae@reddit
Well, regardless of distro, he's still using his lifetime work.
syklemil@reddit
Yeah. For a broader concept, see conspicuous consumption.
thedeathbeam@reddit
I use arch as software developer because I need actual new versions of tools I use, and sometimes they are only on aur. On distros with old packages this is pain in the ass (some of my coworkers use ubuntu and its not uncommon that they are just running random curls from internet instead to install something).
Also I need reproducible system so I have shell script that just sets up my arch installation to be identical to my previous arch installation whenever i need to either spin up new VM if I am forced to use windows as a host or when i get new notebook that I have to install from scratch again.
Nix would be somewhat decent alternative for this as it supports reproducible setups even better but I never found enough time to actually try to replicate my setup in nix and my current shell script works well enough anyway.
changeLynx@reddit
love these jab at the end... "I use NixOS btw")))))
XzwordfeudzX@reddit
I don't understand what you mean here. Is using ink to make paintings "being a consumer"? If you're using DWM, you literally edit the source code to tweak it. I think of Arch/Gentoo and "ricing" in general as a form of self-expression.
wichwigga@reddit
Mac users are ironically some of the most productive.
Scandiberian@reddit
Mac laptops are good, as much as we love to hate on them. Yes, they have serious builf issues from factory that may or may not manifest down the line, and Apple is obviously an ass company, but when their products work, they work.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
Yeah he has a job not surprising he uses something like fedora
whizzwr@reddit
this statement throws veiled insults on several different level. I love it.
flavionm@reddit
"I use my job as an excuse for intellectual lazyness" isn't exactly the best insult.
whizzwr@reddit
Well, what excuses yours? For starter you have busy job replying to 10 months old comment.
flavionm@reddit
I don't need an excuse. If I want to install an easier distro because I don't want to bother with a harder one, I'll just do it. I won't try to use the fact I have a job as an excuse, because that in no way whatsoever affects my ability to do anything.
Pretending otherwise is the actual intellectual lazyness, not any distro you choose to install.
whizzwr@reddit
So much for intellectual laziness with broken reading comprehension.
flavionm@reddit
Don't worry, I understood you perfectly.
whizzwr@reddit
Apparently not enough to understand the concept of 24h time and having a real job takes away quite a big chunk of it.
flavionm@reddit
I'm gonna let you in on a secret: installing a "hard" Linux distro isn't really hard.
If you want to run a marathon, then having a job might actually get in the way, because that's something that takes focus, dedication, and a lot of time. Installing a distro, even the hardest one, doesn't require any of that.
Again, if you don't want to install a hard distro, you don't have to do it, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you wanted to for some reason, probably because that distro has certain benefits you'd like to have, having a job is not the thing that's stopping you from doing it.
whizzwr@reddit
Hard distro is exclusively your made up concept, so I'm not going to contradict you contradicting yourself, lol.
Yeah, unfortunately no. I don't think the concept of time is finite applies you — that I envy.
flavionm@reddit
For someone who likes to spout about reading comprehension, I'd expect realizing "hard distros" refer to distros that people consider hard to install, like the ones listed on this very post, should happen naturally. My mistake.
whizzwr@reddit
Apology accepted. You have to understand, reading can be difficult for the "intellectually lazy".
I failed miserably to undertand "hard distro isn't hard", and your consideration alone override other people situation and judgement.
flavionm@reddit
Spoken like someone who has no experience with "hard" distros at all. Not surprising.
whizzwr@reddit
Yes, yes, not surprising. I lack the "intellectual diligence", unlike you. 😂
flavionm@reddit
So you admit don't have any experience with them, but you talk about them like you do. Huh.
whizzwr@reddit
Lmao the gift that keeps on giving. 😂
Sorry, I mean yes, I will have to put "experience installing hard Linux distro" on my next job application — total career boost and shows "intellectual diligence".
This is fun. Any more golden quote? I can also find other random 10 months comment for you to debate on.
flavionm@reddit
I'm good, you already made my point for me. I have nothing else to add, so I'm done.
whizzwr@reddit
Awww.. And I was looking forward for more "points". Anyway, thanks for the weekend amusement . Lol
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I think it’s fine if Linus is a bit lazy and uses his job as an excuse to not learn how to rice arch Linux, he’s probably okay not knowing how to set up hyprland or how to find a cute anime girl desktop background.
flavionm@reddit
To be fair, in Linus' case, it is a good excuse. He made the thing, after all.
ibWickedSmaht@reddit
Wait what are the deeper levels of insults?
The_Casual_Noob@reddit
Yep. I didn't remember what distro he used but when I read "he wants something that is easy to setup and works out of the box without hassle so he can do his job" that was exactly the same thing I was after when I switched from windows at home. I'm coming back from a day of work, I just want to relax and play some games.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Well, fedora sure as hell isn't that. Fedora based distros that include the rpm fusion repository and codecs is that.
OliM9696@reddit
that takes a few mins to setup, which is a pain and you have to know to do it and oh..... okay yeah not great.
DankeBrutus@reddit
Ain't that the truth. When COVID hit and I had a ton of free time on my hands, my University cancelled all classes and exams for the rest of the semester + no job, I experimented with all kinds of distros. When I started working again the job was fairly lax so I would get home and experiment more. When I started my career it coincided with my trying of Fedora Workstation. Stuck with that for a couple of years before my current install of Bazzite.
henrythedog64@reddit
mmm bazzite.... Anyone in my life who i manage to convince to use linux and I think would prefer KDE or gnome I immediately stick bazzite onto.
Heavy-Medium2736@reddit
only thing worse than fedora is bazzite
DankeBrutus@reddit
I tried Bazzite because it sounded like the only immutable distro that made sense for me. I've been using it since August of 2024 and I have to give massive props to the distro maintainers and developers. It isn't like Fedora Workstation was complicated mind you, it is just nice that a lot of the busywork is done for you on Bazzite. I have run into one scenario when trying to run a program via terminal where Bazzite being immutable made it seemingly impossible to do, and distrobox was not a solution. But it was relatively niche what I was doing.
I think the immutable distro with flatpaks/appimages is the future of the Linux desktop. We'll always have the traditional distro like Fedora Workstation, Debian, Arch, etc for servers and for desktop users who need that degree of control over their system. But for beginners or average desktop users immutability and atomic updates are a huge quality of life improvement.
DDjivan@reddit
bazzite mentioned 🗣️
skuterpikk@reddit
Can relate. I want to use my computer, not configure it.
Individual_Author956@reddit
This is exactly my attitude towards all my electronic devices these days. I used to root my phone and run custom ROMs, now I have an iPhone.
GirlInTheFirebrigade@reddit
literally why I switched from arch to fedora… Got a job and no more time to develop my own tooling for fun.
TommyFromUlthar@reddit
I think just like you
Ambitious_Put_3060@reddit
Io non sono un programmatore e uso linux anche per giocare, utilizzandolo di fatto come validissima alternativa a Windows e preferendolo sotto qualunque punto di vista. Ho iniziato con Ubuntu, poi ho usato Mint e altre debian-based, ma alla fine sono rimasto deluso dalle prestazioni decrescenti, anno dopo anno. Dopo aver fatto cambio da Kubuntu a Manjaro con KDE (entrambe con plasma) sono rimasto stupefatto dalla differenza prestazionale tra i due sistemi, oltre al software più aggiornato e, stranamente, molti meno problemi, pur essendo una Rolling release. Alla fine sono passato ad Arch con KDE per avere aggiornamenti costanti e nessun problema di compatibilità con i pacchetti AUR (Aur, su cui si trova qualunque cosa da installare). Difficile? No. Installare Arch è alla portata di tutti con un minimo di conoscenza di Linux, sopratutto da quando esiste "archinstall". Mi trovo molto bene e raramente ho problemi, che riesco a risolvere sempre grazie alla wiki immensa di Arch, su cui è possibile trovare soluzione a quasi qualunque problema. Ad un nuovo utente consiglierei comunque Manjaro o un'altra arch-based piú "semplice", ma in arch non c'è nulla di davvero difficile con un briciolo di conoscenze di base e con il desiderio di leggere la Wiki per imparare.
Heavy-Medium2736@reddit
he doesn't even use linux
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Any sources citing this? Because I heard Linus uses Fedora and his family uses Fedora.
Vellichorianera@reddit
this mademe tear up a little 🥹 it's 2am and I was contemplating life's hard existence. bless this chill guy's soul 🙂↕️
Der_Bohne@reddit
Oh, so an elitist Linux user is... Everyone on this Subreddit!
egosinenomine@reddit
Apart from indiscriminately kicking all Russian developers out of Linux kernel development just because he's Finnish.Apart from indiscriminately kicking all Russian developers out of Linux kernel development just because he's Finnish.
Upbeat-Heat-5605@reddit
I'm surprised you include Debian as a "hard" distro. I installed it graphically and it works out of the box.
Comfortable_Ad5002@reddit
Wtf Debian considered as distribution which requires compiling from sources…
LBTRS1911@reddit
So I'm not the only one that thinks Debian isn't the most user friendly distro? Looks like I'm in good company.
KnowZeroX@reddit
It isn't the most user friendly distro, and I can never understand why people push debian onto new users.
Albeit to be fair, debian has come a long way so it is far easier than it used to be, just still not something I'd recommend a new user.
vim_deezel@reddit
Most people do not push debian on newbies. 99% of linux users will suggest ubuntu/mint/fedora/suse or other easy to install distro. Debian is nice if you want stable desktop OS that doesn't update every day or every 6 months. I use it for servers for the most part. For desktop I use kubuntu or straight ubuntu and install kde on that.
someNameThisIs@reddit
Do people really push suse for new users? Its installation is more complex than Ubuntu or Fedora, and even Debian nowadays.
vim_deezel@reddit
It's still easy, and if you have an axe to grind with the USA like a lot of people there's the fact that it's made in Europe, and is just as well respected as Redhat or Ubuntu or Debian
someNameThisIs@reddit
I should try the installation again and see how it is now.
And that's true about some not want to use a US based bistro given current circumstances, though aren't RHEL/Fedora the only major US based ones? Ubuntu is UK, SUSE Germany, plus Debian and Arch aren't bound to any single nation.
starswtt@reddit
Some people don't like that most debian/arch devs are American at all (though this is very small minority and most don't mind since its not exactly a US based corpo) and Idk why Ubuntu gets left out of these lets skip US convos
someNameThisIs@reddit
Yeah it doesn't matter there's US based devs, but that there's no US based copos (e.g. Red Hat) behind the distro. Though I'm not sure if most Debian devs are American, by there website with a map of their dev locations, Europe seems to have more:
https://www.debian.org/devel/developers.loc
And I think with Ubuntu there's just a lot of people online who aren't fans so would prefer to not recommend them.
darklotus_26@reddit
I used to recommend Ubuntu at some point but I've found Debian to be the most unbreakable. The installer might be a bit harder than others but I usually share screenshots if needed. Once you set it up and don't create FrankenDebian it'll basically work forever. Every single version upgrade was painless and succeeded.
I've had Ubuntu, pop, Mint, Fedora, Solus break at some point during a version upgrade or some spotty upgrade. Not Debian.
Recently I've started recommending Spiral Linux which is just Debian with some nice defaults and easier installer.
Might give LMDE a spin at some point.
Crusher7485@reddit
As a long time Mint user, I recently installed LMDE on a VM and it seemed to be pretty much the exact same experience. I think I may try it some more and then maybe run it as the base OS on my computer.
darklotus_26@reddit
That's great. I hope Mint becomes a genuine contender in the Ubuntu space without being downstream of it. Ubuntu not offering debian patches for non-essential packages without pro (no first hand experience, but read a few rants about it) is negligent to the extreme.
KnowZeroX@reddit
For new users I recommend Mint. I also recommend not to rush upgrades, prioritizing "if it ain't broken don't fix it". Mint itself starts prompting people when it is time to update. Most people's issues is trying to rush to be the first one to get the new version, thus the first one to run into bugs. Especially of major version upgrades.
Another thing I like to note is try to keep away from ppas, use flatpaks, appimages if need be but try to avoid ppas because those often times cause issues during upgrades
A simplified Debian with hardware support might work, but I would still recommend Mint. Not just because of the hardware and simplicity but also the community which is very new user friendly. A lot of people don't consider the importance of how receptive a community is towards new users who don't know how to do basic things
darklotus_26@reddit
I would disagree. I love Mint honestly but I've had my elderly relative's install bork itself during an upgrade once. Which is within the margin of error but that number has been zero for debian.
Most of the people I support are of the opposite group who wouldn't update unless you specifically remind them to. I agree about rushing to get the latest for most people and usually wait for one minor version before upgrading with Debian.
Flatpaks, complete agree. In fact that was the last piece missing for me to recommend Debian to people.
Debian has non-free drivers bundled now and have had ISOs with them in the past. I would say the debian community is one of the best I've seen in terms of friendliness and being technically sound but then askubuntu is pretty awesome too. I recently saw a question in Mint forums about ufw logs in dmesg and the response was to just disable logging.
I would add that I love Linux Mint and recommend it to people whom I'm not planning to offer assistance during setting stuff up but for people I'm helping out, debian has been more pain free.
Interestingly Solus was another one that was pain free and very robust for the same crowd until the project fell into disarray.
Creepy_Reindeer2149@reddit
Why do you think that? Personally I don't see how it's more complicated than Fedora/Ubuntu etc.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
The installer for fedora just seems a lot simpler, IMO Debian asks you a lot of stuff that Fedora leaves out for good reason. Like Fedora doesn't ask you what DE you want or what your host name is or if you want to set up a root user or if you want to set up a "LVM" or if you want separate home partition or what mirror you want to use for your package manager or if you want to use a proxy or if you want to use grub. It just feels like debian is allergic to making any decisions for you which leads to a bad user experience for beginners.
maybe_not_a_penguin@reddit
Ironically, these are mostly things I want to set when installing -- especially the desktop environment and the hostname...
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I get that those installer options are there for a reason I just think people shouldn't recommend Debian to beginners.
maybe_not_a_penguin@reddit
Yeah, I agree with you not this 100%: not necessarily the best option for beginners. That being said, it was the distro I used as a beginner, so it can work out, depending on the beginner -- though there were no better options back then anyway.
Neither Ubuntu nor Mint Linux suit me personally, but I'd happily suggest them to a beginner. Different people have different needs.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I personally started with arch but that’s mostly cuz I found it more interesting
maybe_not_a_penguin@reddit
I think probably there's no real one-size fits all advice. Distributions like Mint and Ubuntu are often recommended for beginners since you can get them set up easily with minimum stress/hairloss. That's not what everyone's looking for, though...
Booty_Bumping@reddit
Nice thing about Fedora is that you still can do all of these things at installation time if you wish to. The Everything ISO lets you choose a DE, and options like hostname and bespoke filesystem setups are available behind a few extra clicks.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I didn't even know about that, good to know
Grumblepuck@reddit
I like Debian but I am not confident with having to make a lot of the initial decisions at install at all. The ones for setting up a root account, a host server, whatever. I always seek the comfort of tutorials.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
So I guess Linus's reaction to installing and making Debian run on his machine was like this:
ficskala@reddit
it's really not, i only use it on my servers because it's stable, i don't use it for anything with a desktop environment at all
creeper6530@reddit
I daily drive it with XFCE (as well as a server) and it's honestly fine. No issues, no changing every few weeks, with the newest stable it supports all the hardware.
ficskala@reddit
I just don't really see a point in using it for desktop unless it's rarely accessed, like, i might switch my laptop to debian as i rarely use it, but on my main pc, if i was reinstalling or switching distros, i'd probably go for fedora, i'm on arch rn, and it's been pretty good so i don't really se a reason to switch
creeper6530@reddit
There isn't a killer point in using it. I use it because I'm used to it (and it doesn't change a lot with upgrades), but you do you.
gonzo028@reddit
Debian is for advanced users because you can 'build' your own distro like you wish. I always like to install a minimal debian because you can have a working os within a few minutes. You then just need to know which packages to install.
pca006132@reddit
People are different. Some people like to talk about their tools, some people just want to get shit done.
That said, I still don't understand why some people brag about using something not user-friendly. I do things from the command line because I find it faster for me, not because it is more fancy or something. I use nix because I like being able to declaratively configure stuff once and use it with my other machines (I have 1 laptop, 1 desktop at home, and 1 in the office). I have several hundred lines of vim config, not because I like fixing or writing such script (it sucks!), but because it is needed for some functionalities I want. If things like vscode or zed can provide fine-grained customization to me I will immediately switch to them (not yet for now, things like key binding are still not uniform when you work with text buffer and other GUI components...).
RenTheDev@reddit
What are the difficulties with Debian? To me it’s just a few extra installs away from being called Ubuntu lol
imbev@reddit
Debian only recently started shipping non-free firmware in the installation isos. You can imagine what happens if you need non-free wifi firmware.
shiftingtech@reddit
there have always been debian isos with the bundled firmware. granted, it was always an extra (and annoying) step to go find those, which is pretty relevent when we're talking ease of overall process.
BothWaysItGoes@reddit
Yeah, there is even a very popular one called Ubuntu.
NoHovercraft9590@reddit
Yr so very funny!
surlybrian@reddit
Back in the day, this is exactly why I moved to Ubuntu. When setting up a media server at home, I found the faff of non-free software too much effort whose only payoff was uncelebrated personal glory.
I enjoy that Debian ships with non-free now, but now I have all this Ubuntu inertia....
srivasta@reddit
You just downloaded the firmware and put it o on a USB firing the install.
Non free is a strange thing with Debian. It might be on the installation media now. But we insist it is not a post of Debian
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Based off what I've read, the interview was from 2007, and he tried to install Debian on one of his machines a few years ago, and it just wouldn't run, and install and setup was difficult.
Haematobic@reddit
The last time Linus tried installing Debian 2.1 was in 1999, and judging by the installation process, I can see why he gave up on it.
That is beyond ridiculous, even for someone knowledgeable like him.
maybe_not_a_penguin@reddit
Ironically, that is pretty much the reason why I've not bothered with Red Hat/Fedora and derivatives too 😅. I guess it comes down to familiarity: I'm more familiar with Debian, so of course it's easier for me than an rpm-based system.
ReallyEvilRob@reddit
2007 was a very long time ago.
condor6677@reddit
A long time ago?
Moon_Lust_Delirium@reddit
Has Debian's installer actually changed since then, though? ;p
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Yes, and as far as I can tell, Linus still uses Fedora to this day.
inbetween-genders@reddit
That interview can legally drink in a lot of countries.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
Debian isn’t difficult at all, it just doesn’t do everything for you out of the box.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
That’s called being difficult
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
Sure, but Debian takes far fewer steps to get it running than an Arch base install, and on an overall scale from "already fully up and running" to "very manual" it sits fairly close to Fedora towards the "already running" end.
Maykey@reddit
I feel arch based distros are much better than arch or debian. I get proprietary firmwares, latest drivers(that I need to install by pressing enter the moment the installer starts as "install using proprietary nvidia driver" is default in installer grub).
I want to code my own projects and play Minecraft not patch dwm or rice shit out of wm and tools because defaults are terrible(waybar should learn color theory instead of vomiting random rgb)
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I’m a lot closer to Einstein’s level of intelligence than someone who’s been lobotomized, it doesn’t mean I’m that smart
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
Neither Fedora nor Arch even remotely represent the extreme ends of the spectrum of Linux turnkey experiences
derangedtranssexual@reddit
Fedora isn't that far off. You're right about Arch not being the worst but neither is a lobotomy.
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
h.264: exists Fedora: 😬
(I know you can get h.264 on Fedora but it still takes extra steps)
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
So I guess then anything without every possible package installed is "difficult"? After all, no OS, Windows included, is everything to everyone without additional packages.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
Use your brain, obviously that's not what I'm saying
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
Then what do you mean, and where do you draw the line on what is enough?
derangedtranssexual@reddit
Oh god you’re going full debatelord on me 🙄
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
And you still haven’t answered the question.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
Yeah and I'm not going to. I can see you're going to argue tooth and nail over everything I said in the most bad faith way possible which just isn't fun.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
If you'd actually had a conception, you could have given it. Therefore we see that you don't.
Have a nice day.
OtherAd3762@reddit
Yeah but it wouldnt be reddit without someone interpreting the things you say with the most uncharitable take possible. What if he doesnt have a brain?? Hmmm? What then? Your assumption that the user has a brain is offensive to me.
_ahrs@reddit
Flexible, is another way to put it, not necessarily difficult. Difficult would be if they made certain things impossible or hard to do.
surlybrian@reddit
When I was young and had nothing but time to geek out over setting up a machine for days on end, I wouldn't have called it difficult. The problem as I've gotten older is that I don't have the time or inclination to deal with setup; time-consumption is the problem for me.
What I'm saying is that 'difficult' might be an imprecise term here. 'Time consuming' might capture some users' experiences more clearly.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
That's just the Linux nerd way of thinking, for normal people it's difficult.
inbetween-genders@reddit
The statement is vague and doesn’t apply to everyone. Fedora doesn’t do everything for me out of the box either.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
I guess Windows then is the same. It doesn't come with every possible app installed either.
Windows also doesn't allow me the option of starting with the bare necessities and crafting the system I want from there.
anhedoni69@reddit
He said that in 2007. Another different Debian.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
So it doesn't even apply then. OK.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I guess that's what Linus is talking about, he wants a distro that does everything for you out of the box.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
Different needs for different folks. I had a specific goal in mind with my Debian box, started with the minimal netinstall and added what I wanted. Others want to be fully up and running after a 30 minute install.
Choice is good.
hauntlunar@reddit
Yeah I would have put Debian in very much the same category as Fedora, as far as "easy."
I guess maybe there was a bigger difference back in 2007. Or maybe it was a free software purism vs poorly supported hardware deal.
classicalySarcastic@reddit
It used to be a lot worse than it is now, but if you’re installing it on hardware you almost always have to use the nonfree driver image for it to work properly.
KnowZeroX@reddit
The biggest is hardware support mostly, ubuntu comes with far more hardware with no extra work. A few extra installs is still more work that could be avoided.
ListenRadiant4817@reddit
Same here. Super easy, at least in recent years. I like Fedora too, and I'd use Fedora if I wasn't using Debian.
Danternas@reddit
Linus simply knows the obvious:
The world is a better place with broad Linux adoption and for that Linux need to be made for the masses.
QBaseX@reddit
Does Debian count as a "hard" distro? I mostly use Ubuntu, but I get the impression that Debian is pretty easy to use these days, and I was thinking of switching to it.
vim_deezel@reddit
installing debian is hard? lol
pseudo_pseudonym@reddit
Last time I tried it on a desktop, I needed to install a lot of shit just for watching a copy protected DVD.
creeper6530@reddit
Nowadays not. It does ask a few more advanced questions that might stumble the total novices (LVM, desktop env., local domain), but as an intermediate I do actually like it, because even those advanced stuff are handled by the installer and simple to set up.
infinitofluxo@reddit
It might still carry the stigma, but it certainly takes more time to install. Fedora and Ubuntu are much faster installs with a lot less user input needed. But it is not like Linus is reinstalling the system every week for this to matter.
He probably prefers the easier one because he likes the idea behind it, this is just his way to justify it. I agree with him but I chose Debian because it is the only distro I could trust that is easy enough. Both Fedora and Ubuntu had failed me before
sf-keto@reddit
Was maybe long ago but certainly not since at least 2018.
pseudo_pseudonym@reddit
I am not surprised. He is a pragmatic technician who wants to get his shit done. Kinda like most great creates I've met.
PudimVerdin@reddit
It was a good time when I used Slackware, and I could learn a lot. Nowadays, I need a computer to work, so I use Ubuntu
I already used Suse also, but I really dislike KDE
Techy-Stiggy@reddit
Its so funny how different we are. Sure KDE has the issue of being unstable but it’s bleeding edge on many fronts. And personally I value that over stable but boring development
Haematobic@reddit
The KDE 4.x days are long gone. The latest KDE, as well as the previous one, have been very stable.
Techy-Stiggy@reddit
Ehh yeah the system is but my plasma still crashes and reloads the taskbar every few hours
derangedtranssexual@reddit
For me I just hate how much KDE focuses on customization, it feels visionless
FengLengshun@reddit
It has a vision: "simple by default, powerful when needed."
Anyone who have used a computer in the last twenty years won't feel lost, but if anyone needed it to do more, you barely need to install anything on top of what came out of the box.
It clearly works given how much Windows has stolen from KDE over the years.
DogeGroomer@reddit
curious what windows took from kde?
deafpolygon@reddit
KDE with Plasma 6 has gotten really good. I wasn't the biggest fan of KDE pre-Plasma 6.
meskobalazs@reddit
Plasma 6 is definitely a very good step. KDE always felt like a hodgepodge of a desktop environment, but Plasma 6 has a sense of direction. I wouldn't hate it now, if I had to use it.
vim_deezel@reddit
you don't have to change a thing, stock kde is fine, just use it that way.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
If you just use stock KDE then you just have another windows clone DE but unlike all the other Windows clone DEs you have to ignore this massive part of your DE that seems into every area of it.
pezezin@reddit
But you don't need to customize everything, nowadays the defaults are very good for most users.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
This is the usually response I get when I say I don't like KDEs customization but I don't agree with it. If I don't really customize it then all of the customization options just make it worse, having an OS where you have to ignore a massive part of it isn't good. Like look at how complicated KDEs settings are compared to most other distros, the customization makes the settings harder to use. Meanwhile on Gnome I feel like I've explored most of the settings because that's something you can do without a massive amount of effort. Also with Gnome having looked through the settings I have found some things I've wanted to tweak and customize that make it a little nicer for me, that feels much harder to do on KDE because instead of choosing from a small number of things to tweak I can tweak everything.
HieladoTM@reddit
Highly easy customization it's that make KDE Plasma more different than other DE's, but it's not for you!
derangedtranssexual@reddit
IMO I think it's good that KDE exists, when people whine that Gnome is too opinionated or doesn't have enough customization in the settings I can tell them to just use KDE.
HieladoTM@reddit
I like GNOME, Cinnamon and KDE Plasma (Come on, the triad of favorites).
I currently use Nobara Linux 41 with KDE Plasma 6.3.3 and Cinnamon 6.4 because although Cinnamon is not as customizable as Plasma, nor as little customizable (excluding the extensions of course) as GNOME...
Cinnamon is for me a middle ground because nobody can deny me that Cinnamon is extremely easy to use and too intuitive but still quite customizable. It is also visually simple but pleasing to see.
And being something more personal, having Cinnamon reminds me of when I started with Linux Mint back in 2023 and I like to keep using it (I like the Bibata cursor and the system sounds) even though I consider KDE Plasma to be better in many things than Cinnamon, plus you never know when your main DE might break, it's always good to have a backup DE!
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I like to have a backup X11 DE but that’s about it
KnowZeroX@reddit
KDE is fairly stable as long as you stick to LTS, I've had pretty much no stability issues with 5.27 and am perfectly happy.
Techy-Stiggy@reddit
Yes but LTS means it won’t have the features I value
vim_deezel@reddit
if KDE doesn't have 99% of the features one would want in a desktop UI, I don't know what to tell you, you'll probably never be happy with any desktop
Techy-Stiggy@reddit
It’s mostly HDR.
Nicksaurus@reddit
Wayland is the big one. I understand using the latest version just for that
tom-dixon@reddit
KDE had all the features I needed back in 2005, so it's not like LTS is missing anything I need.
Novero95@reddit
I'm on KDE 6.3.4 and have had no issues at all, using Fedora
zladuric@reddit
Even the 6.x is pretty stable. Fedora KDE ships with 6.x and there are mostly no problems with it.
Novero95@reddit
I'm using Fesora KDE, which ships pretty much the latest KDE release, currently 6.3.4, and have had zero problems since I installed it months ago.
LeyaLove@reddit
I'm the exact opposite, I can't stand GNOME and that's why Ubuntu is pretty much a no-go for me. I know that there is Kubuntu but I never got really comfortable with K/Ubuntu anyway. Pretty happy with EndeavourOS. Arch really isn't as hard as people make it seem and the installation is also really simple with Endeavour.
why_is_this_username@reddit
I like gnome but I hate fedora, gnome on Ubuntu is better but honestly I do miss cinnamon, and I also hate that super pulls you into a weird ass menu thing, feels like a tablet
LeyaLove@reddit
Exactly, that is one of my main problems with GNOME. GNOME for me somehow feels like the Windows 8 of Linux. I rather prefer a start menu that doesn't cover my whole screen with icons sized in a way that even my grandparents could see without glasses.
Could be a bias because I'm coming from Windows but imo the UI/UX of KDE feels better suited for desktop usage compared to GNOME, and I think there is a reason that Microsoft back paddled away from that experiment that Windows 8 was really fast. I know no one that actually liked the UI of Windows 8.
On the other hand I have to admit that it could be pretty nice if you have a convertible or touch screen laptop. But that's just not the way I personally like to use my computer. I need it for dev work and that requires a mouse and keyboard anyway so I don't need a screen sized app menu to get in my way.
With KDE I just hit the super key, type what I want to open in the search and hit enter. Fast, intrusive and elegant.
Hot_Fisherman_1898@reddit
GNOME is meant to be used with a keyboard when used on desktop. Opening apps, navigating through apps, all done with keyboard. One, maybe two apps/windows per workspace. The overview is just there to show you all the windows on each workspace and allow you to switch workspaces or select windows with the mouse. Know what app you want to open? Hit super to pull up overview and type a few letters of the name of the app and press enter.
The best thing KDE ever did was allow their overview to open with only hitting super as of KDE 6.
LeyaLove@reddit
Being able to work with keyboard and mouse and being meant to be used with keyboard and mouse (primarily) are two different things entirely imo. Sure, it supports keyboard shortcuts and you can work with the mouse, but the UI is clearly designed to primarily be usable with a touchscreen. That's why every UI element is oversized and they had to keep everything dumped down and simple. Otherwise it wouldn't easily be usable with touch navigation. That's also why GNOME needs extensions for a lot of things that KDE supports out of the box. KDE is meant for power users, GNOME is meant for people who want it simple, which includes convertible/tablet users as they can't navigate complex menus and sub menus very well.
I also must say I've never in my life used different workspaces, also just doesn't feel right to me. Seems to be more of a GNOME workflow.
So the same as with KDE that manages it without throwing me out of my workflow by displaying a screen sized start menu.
I can just repeat what I previously said. Remember when Windows tried to push a screen sized start menu to make Windows a better OS for Touch devices? Turns out people using their desktop OS with touchscreen are clearly a small minority and people using it with keyboard and mouse didn't like it at all. Also turns out designing an OS to work with two different device types that have a clearly different philosophy about how they should be operated isn't so easy and maybe not a good idea.
Hot_Fisherman_1898@reddit
These are the GNOME guidelines. Keyboard is an equal portion of the workflow as much as touch and mouse. I disagree that the icons are “too big.” Especially when they are only on your screen when you need them.
I also think it is silly and audacious to make a claim that one is superior than another. If that is the case then that is the case for you and purely subjective.
I prefer GNOME because it essentially functions as a TWM stuck in floating mode and is rock solid where KDE has always fell short for me, and I try it regularly.
I like GNOME because I hardly see GNOME, sans opening applications(which can be done with default keyboard shortcuts). It is as out of the way as a DE can be IMO. KDE has been bugged for me almost every time that I have tried to use it within the first month or two. This is as recent as Plasma 6.2. And the best experience I had was 5.27 on Debian 12.
I don’t understand the hate on extensions. I have never had an extension break from a GNOME update. Unless you are using something niche and updating to a new feature of GNOME during its beta I just feel like that is a thing of the past. I will concede that a native systray is needed.
Touch accessible != touch first.
The point of GNOME is to be simple, and if you need your DE to enable you to be a power user, you probably aren’t as much of a power user as you thought.
LeyaLove@reddit
I don't know, I'll just leave this blog post that I just discovered today here because it perfectly reflects my opinion of GNOME and saves me from having to do another huge write up.
What I'm going to say anyway is that I never claimed that KDE is superior to GNOME, at least not in a way that claims this to be true for everyone (in another comment I even clearly stated that it's amazing that you have so much choice on Linux), although I'll clearly state that for me personally KDE just seems way superior and that I think that GNOME is hindered by its design decision to accommodate touch devices into their UI design. It also clearly is commendable that they want to keep GNOME accessible for all people, even if they have handicaps, but again why not just make this optional. For example large UI elements and text surely are a good thing for people with impaired vision. But why do I need to be forced to also use the same UI as them if I could fit way more info on the screen while still being able to see everything clearly? You wouldn't expect an OS to always force the screen reader to be on just because some people need it. So why is it ok to just force other accessibility features, or features that make the UI work better on another kind of device on users that don't need it. GNOME developers would say it's ✨ simplicity ✨ and that choice is bad, but for me it's just plain laziness.
I also clearly think that it's pretty presumptuous to claim that the GNOME developers exactly know how people are going to use their devices or even to think that everyone has the same needs.
I guess opinions here also differ, but I just find this kind of design philosophy to be plain stupid. Why should I have to adapt to the application, why is it bad if the application is able to adapt to my work flow. Not everyone uses their computer in the same way or even for the same things, so why limit and dump down a basic app like for example the file explorer, that is part of the core experience of the DE to only work in a really basic, limited and certain way?
But this brings me to the last thing I wanted to address:
Excuse my wording but again this opinion is just plain stupid. Of course the software needs to go out of its way and accommodate lots of customization, workflows and features so you can use it in a powerful way.
Let's take the file explorer again as an example here. If I want to be able to manage files faster and a split panel view helps me to accommodate this for my specific task and use case, how should I do it if the application doesn't support split views?
If I need to batch rename files, and the file explorer doesn't support batch renaming files, how am I supposed to do it.
The difference between a normal user and a power user is the drive to take a deep dive into the advanced abilities of a software. A normal user that has to rename 20 files in a folder would rather rename them each individually instead of spending 5 minutes to look up and learn other ways the software provides them with to archive the same task, a power user that maybe needs to do this regularly or has hundreds of files he wants to rename would rather spend 5 minutes to learn the advanced features of a software and how to automatically make it rename the files for you. If the software like the really dumped down GNOME file explorer doesn't offer any advanced features or customizability, how do you expect the power user to use it in a powerful way?
If I wanted simplicity, sure, I could write all my code in the GNOME text editor, but people that want to be productive don't want simplicity, they want features that help them to be productive.
Well, now I've done it. Wrote a big wall of text again although I didn't want to. Anyway that's just my two cents and of course your and everyone else's opinion about this is allowed to differ. The only thing that I don't agree with at all is that my ability to be a power user isn't influenced by the software I'm using and what it provides... A plain text editor is just that, a plain text editor. It's lean, simplistic, and ... plain. But that's just it. I don't see why those properties should always be desirable. A text editor that provides support for plugins on the other hand might not be simple, lean or easy to use, but it can become pretty much anything and enable me to be more productive if I'm willing to learn about it. And imo that's clearly not debatable.
iCapa@reddit
So the exact same thing as, uh.. GNOME lol
LeyaLove@reddit
Well the basic flow might be the same, but GNOME feels intrusive. It covers the whole screen without reason, when I remember correctly it has excessive animations (but I guess you can turn them off?), and by doing that it kind of throws me out of my flow if that makes sense. I just find it really unappealing. Why would I need a huge and imo just unnatural and clunky UI that's clearly designed for use with a touchscreen on a desktop PC?
KDEs start menu covers only a tiny fraction of the screen and archives the same thing, arguably even better (at least for desktop usage).
But I know there are a lot of people that like GNOME and fortunately on Linux we have the choice and can decide what we want or even use both if we feel like it. What I said previously is of course just my opinion, although in my opinion I'd say that GNOME just has an objectively bad UI/UX for desktop users.
why_is_this_username@reddit
Honestly I’m all for being unique, like gnome on fedora feels great to an extent, still not a fan of the super but it’s better than Ubuntu feeling more like Mac but better. Only problem is that it’s basically un usable without downloading gnome extensions
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
Hard is probably the wrong term here, what's mostly being discussed is how close a distro is to being turnkey, and Arch definitely isn't that even if Endeavour is (which would be analogous to how Ubuntu is more turnkey than Debian)
iCapa@reddit
so the exact same thing as.. GNOME..?
tom-dixon@reddit
I also can't stand GNOME, but there's Kubuntu and it served me well for many years.
Pisnaz@reddit
I ran Slackware also, and am now in the same camp. I started with redhat 4, and it was a mess for me. I stumbled to slack, messed with debian, mandrake, various BSDs, Solaris, dabbled in beos, had a unloving stint with sco unixware for work, and found or returned to Debian which I found fit for me. But even plain old Debian is to much hassle now so I just run xubuntu. I just want to work with minimal hassle.
I loved KDE and am now a XFCE fan. The early days of compwiz were amazing, but again it jist grows boring and the flash annoys me. I still like KDE for flash and pretty but the simplicity of XFCE means I now tend go for it more often than not.
I now distrohop, if I ever find time, on a older rpi but have not even bothered in a fair while I just lack the time to spend spinning my mind back into that mindset and am old enough I want forums and documentation for answers not some kid on YouTube yammering at me.
surlybrian@reddit
Your history sounds so similar to mine it's actually eerie. BeOS was dreamy (for the few minutes it existed).
When I switched my whole family to Linux, it was Ubuntu all the way. If I want something other than Gnome, I'll just install it (but I love Gnome, so).
(Side note: I'm often puzzled by the choice of distribution based on a Gnome / KDE debate (as though they're the only two contenders). I used Fluxbox for years, for example. Often I'll install KDE and Gnome and switch from time to time just to remind myself that I don't particularly like KDE.)
Pisnaz@reddit
Yeah I was excited for KDE 4 but just lost my joy with it when we finally got it. I still think it is the prettiest, or slickest looking windowmanager though. Gnome after the changes in 3, I think it was, became even more of a no for me. I see the benefits and such but just never spent enough time with it and was in the KDE camp for ages by then.
Beos still amazes me for what it was and trying to be. I wish we had a maintained beos that had grown over the what 20 years now? If nothing more than to see what it became. There is a port or such of it but last I had looked it seemed dormant.
I forgot about fluxbox, wow yeah I tried it, never got deep into it. Oddly though my windows systems got litestep thrown on them to give it a similar look ages ago.
I have a few more odd distros, one was SOL, I think it was Deb based or such but it used xml configuration files all restructured in etc. For a quick server setup it was damn handy once you got adjusted. I sadly think it died a decade or so ago. Hell I even have a very old QNX os system architecture for qnx 4.24 book on my shelf, I forget what I even did with it, lol.
I forced my father onto Ubuntu at one point. He had windows and somehow got a viri that broke exe's from running. Windows would load, but no desktop etc. I lived 14 hrs away and had to walk him through enough hacks to get me a way to remote in and fix it. Three weeks later I visited with a spare parts pc loaded with Ubuntu (maybe mint). That thing lasted till he passed away. As long as he had internet and a freecell clone he was happy. He would bitch occasionally but the calls about his "windows pc having an issue" got fun for him and he admitted he was happy as he had no more issues once on it.
vim_deezel@reddit
I absolutely love Plasma 6, when I get in gnome I feel like I have one hand tied behind my back
barnaboos@reddit
OpenSuse had a very good, close to vanilla, implementation of Gnome.
UbieOne@reddit
You're not alone. After some time, distro hopping and this VS that just kinda makes me "i really dc" now. I must be getting old. Lmfao!
m0rl0ck1996@reddit
I really had a lot of fun with Slackware. These days i dont use a computer mostly for gaming and browsing so i just defaulted to windows.
kolo81@reddit
Linus Torvalds is a programmer so basically he needs working setup. He dosen't need to configure any system services, administration systems etc. In my opinion everybody at some point roll linux they are couriers etc. I have used linux from 1998 and from 15 years I have used for example debian for 4 years after that 3-4 years fedora etc. Now I'm back to mint eacose I'am lase but I need this ecosystem in my work I use ubuntu servers as platforms for my software. I'm still like Linus more programmer than administrator.
fptbb@reddit
TLDR: Linux elitism is bad, don't be that person, elitism is bound to make things fail and cease to exist
mofomeat@reddit
After 27+ years, I still wonder why people consider Debian difficult to install or use. That's been the argument against it (after the age of packages in Stable) for as long as I've known it.
TurboJax07@reddit
Torvalds seems like a cool guy. The dude didn't have to make the stuff he made, and most of it is publicly available for free. The elitists don't show that kind of niceness to make something for other people. Also, Torvalds of all people should know that parts of Linux do suck, as he helped make most of it!
Ahimimi@reddit
I mean, generally speaking, nothing beats terminally online elitism.
Most linux people I've met in reality were friendly and helpful. But maybe that's just my bubble. 😁
binahsbirds@reddit
I can work my way around debian, Arch and Gentoo and use a lot of strictly CLI servers.
I will get on my knees for Silverblue. The experience I've had using Bluefin and Bazzite has been legendary. Flatpak is the best thing that's happened to me (don't tell my gf), and having everything immutable has saved my ass a couple times.
The easy way should be the best way to do something. I've been able to get Linux into the hands of some pretty technically inept people because of Bazzite, and the odd time I've had to remote in and putz with the CLI for them, it's been pretty simple and I haven't minded. Bazzite is less maintenance than Windows for some people, which is bitchin.
DependentSpecial3038@reddit
it's because the guy actually has a life lol
helmut303030@reddit
I'm a little confused. In which way is Debian difficult to use? It doesn't really fit in with the other two in my opinion
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I think what Linus means is that during the time he tried to install it and make it work on his machine, but he couldn't make it run, it was too difficult and hard to install and setup and running, and he eventually moved on from it.
I think he tried to install it on one of his machines during the 2000s.
0-pointer@reddit
If i remember correctly, it wasn't that he couldn't get it to install or run.
The (to him) fatal flaw was that it broke his develeopment workflow. He couldn't "just" run
make installand reboot like he used to, because of the way debian (at that time) handled kernels/initrds/bootloader entries.helmut303030@reddit
I see, that makes sense.
I've been a Linux user for only 5 years now so I have no idea how easy to handle Debian was 20 years ago. What made it so difficult?
TheOneTrueTrench@reddit
I honestly don't know what he ran into, I've been using Debian since Sarge, I never really ran into issues installing it?
atred@reddit
It's not more difficult to install or use than Fedora. However being an old distribution, only Slackware is older as far as I know, it has an image of being harder to install that probably dates from the time it came on 10 floppy install disks.
Loose-Committee6665@reddit
Dude's a pretty chill, down to earth humble guy. He's like Gabe Newell or Keanu Reeves. Basically the who has accomplished a lot or made revolutionary products but doesn't gloat about it. He's the kind of guy you would pass in the grocery store and have no idea that what he made is practically the backbone of the entire internet.
Smart, successful and humble. We should all be like him.
newbiegenie@reddit
Well debian is easy to install today.
WhiteShariah@reddit
Linus does have an attitude problem though.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I heard he's like Gordon Ramsay in the kitchen. But based off what I've heard about Gordon, he's like that because he's passionate about cooking and expects the same professionalism and quality of work from all the chefs that he trained and works for him.
wyn10@reddit
Uk version: food needs some touchups, restaurant needs sense of direction, guidance on how to go debt free
Us version: rats in the kitchen, all the food is expired and moldy, owners are clueless idiots and the chief is about to have a heart attack from the stress
proton_badger@reddit
It is said that Gordon is different in real life, he is supportive and fosters growth through constructive mentorship and humor. His aggressive TV show persona, especially in the US shows is apparently much exaggerated.
QuickSilver010@reddit
Tru. Linus is the furthest from elitism. Btw the part about debian is a bit outdated tho. At the time linus tried debian, it was more convoluted than arch. Not anymore tho. Linus is naturally more like this because he deals mainly with hardware. Not all the software ecosystem built in top of it.
ResponsibleFly8142@reddit
I like Fedora so much, it just work out of the box.
faigy245@reddit
Yea, I don't get how linux users bash windows UAC, macOS handling of unsigned apps, but somehow are fine with requiring sudo to update mf git or entering root passwords everywhere.
ZeroHolmes@reddit
Does it use GNOME or KDE Plasma?
DouViction@reddit
Pardon, since when does Debian require to compile everything from source? Last I checked (admittedly, this was probably almost 20 years ago) it had packages and everything.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
It was referring to Gentoo only.
Also, Linus was referring to Debian during the time he tried it, which was in the early 2000s.
DouViction@reddit
I tinkered with it a bit around 2007, I think. Worked at the user level with no actual IT experience.
sigmoia@reddit
I spend my time developing things for a multi-billion dollar company. I already handle compilation and configuration at work and don’t want to fiddle with fragile operating systems. It’s macOS and Ubuntu for me. Also, I couldn’t care less what some weirdo elitist stranger thinks about my preferences.
sky_blue_111@reddit
Debian is not hard to install. If you can't install debian you probably shouldn't be installing linux.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Linus was referring to Debian during the time he tried it, which was during the 2000s, it was harder to get installed and up and running during that time.
marc_gime@reddit
I'm a programmer, so I know how to compile from source, I know a handful of terminal commands, etc.
I still use ubuntu, I'm not stupid lol. Just because I can do something doesn't mean I have to. I guess Linus thinks the same way
Accurate-End-2827@reddit
yeah he is a smart guy not like many linux junkies
usctzn069@reddit
I've been using Linux since the mid 90s, started with Slack (I think, I got the CDs with a book) and yeah, these days I use Kubuntu because it just works.
paradoxbound@reddit
Linux is just another utility layer to me. I enjoy the stability it brings to the stack but after 25 years of operations it's just something I use. I don't have a Linux desktop anymore because most places I work mandate MacOS. I think the last Linux desktop I had at work was a Ubuntu 16.20, pretty up date and low maintenance. The last time I spun up a personal Linux desktop was half a decade ago. If I need to do something on my personal estate. I will open up a terminal on my MacBook Air or even a terminal on my Windows gaming PC using WSL. Sorry a Linux desktop for its own sake just doesn't make sense for me.
lelddit97@reddit
Is it surprising? He's shown himself to be pragmatic and largely reasonable (albeit grumpy at times) during his entire career.
to people like that, the computer is a tool and why would you not choose something which is easier to work with but still works? fedora checks all boxes for desktop developer use and has for a long time.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Based off my own experience, elitist Linux users think installng a hard as nails distro, living inside the Terminal, and compiling software from starch is a right of passage in Linux.
Some years ago, I've been told by an rude Linux elitist:
henrythedog64@reddit
You've been spoiled by gentoo. You should get into assembly and give your machine instructions DIRECTLY!
_ahrs@reddit
I think all of those are things worth learning because you're likely going to end up in a situation where you'll need to do those things at some point. You can cross that bridge when you get to it though. I think some people expect new users to be thrown into the deep end when they're better off taking their own pace.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Sure, but they should respect personal choice too though, if a Linux user wants to be spoiled by Ubuntu for it's ease of use, they shouldn't insult or mock them for that. Some of said that this is a form of gatekeeping.
Some of it has gotten so bad, it drove some people back to Windows. No one likes to be mocked or ridiculed for being not knowledgeable.
kokoroshita@reddit
This 100% man. I've read anger posts from new Linux users expressing exactly this.
The RTFM mentality is assery.
lelddit97@reddit
I call them loser gatekeepers because that's what they are. Try to call them out when you see them and give reasonable recommendations to OPs instead.
It's just stupid to recommend someone do extra work for the sake of it. The people doing that work had that time to spare.
slick8086@reddit
That's only for people that enjoy that activity, which there is nothing wrong with enjoying that. The problem comes from thinking that you are superior for doing things that way.
lelddit97@reddit
yes I know, I have encountered many
but Linus does not give off elitist vibes. The ones most qualified are very seldom elitist, it is usually the people who want to think they are the smartest in the room.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
That's what I'm grateful for. I've even heard Linus doesn't like to be labeled as "overly technical," because it gives off a vibe that he can fix any and all computer problems.
klyith@reddit
The 2nd best coder I've known was absolutely incapable of troubleshooting a hardware or OS problem to save their life. They're actually really different skillsets!
OhHaiMarc@reddit
you can know a computer from the electrical engineering hardware level through machine language and higher level languages without ever having touched linux. Too many linux users are teens or immature adults who have nothing in their lives but their computer and feel it makes them special.
monkeynator@reddit
I've never understood this mentality, Gentoo is great but not for any reason for it being "hard", what you can do on Gentoo you can do on Ubuntu only difference is that ironically it's harder to structure source-only on Ubuntu since it's meant to be package based, Gentoo is design to make source-only easier.
HarpuiaVT@reddit
Those kind of people usually doesn't have much going on their lifes, like, imagine base your whole personality on the kind of OS you use, who cares.
os_2342@reddit
Kinda like a home cook having expensive fancy chefs knives at home vs a professional cook having decent set of knives that need less looking after for work.
ProdigySorcerer@reddit
That makes sense, Linus since he built Linux is keenly aware of its weak points.
A fanatic is only aware of Linuxs strengths.
AdministrativeFile78@reddit
Cant remember the last time my cli skills got me some p4ssy. Pretty elite
xXx_PucyKekToyer_xXx@reddit
I was using arch once too but not much anymore i am using it on my dev servers but not on my personal computer spending days to fix issues add new things is time consuming and i understand that someone just wants to do the work
ChronographWR@reddit
We all know that he uses Windows off camera
Ordinary_Swimming249@reddit
Because unlike those people, Linus is a grown adult.
Aggressive-Dealer-21@reddit
ew, a gui user
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Since 1995, when we got our first computer which was a Pentium I running Windows 95.
Aggressive-Dealer-21@reddit
I had mine in 1990 it was an Amiga, it was also a gui based OS 🤮
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I was a 10 year old in 1995, I don't think my younger self would have liked CLI.
Aggressive-Dealer-21@reddit
I was 5 when my family got the Amiga, which they hardly used. I would be on that thing all the time and learned how to use the command line on it to navigate the filesystem. This was a skill which stayed with me up until I got my first Linux distro at 14 years old. Still felt completely bewildered, not a clue what I was doing with it 😂
Aggressive-Dealer-21@reddit
I was 5 when my family got the Amiga, which they hardly used. I would be on that thing all the time and learned how to use the command line on it to navigate the filesystem. This was a skill which stayed with me up until I got my first Linux distro at 14 years old. Still felt completely bewildered, not a clue what I was doing with it 😂
stoppos76@reddit
I think most people's goal is when they install distros like arch, or gentoo is to better understand linux.
Now imagine this from his perspective. What would he possibly gain from that experience? I mean at least on high level he knows the code behind it.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
So, did Linus misjudge Slackware then?
This was Linus's statement regarding Slackware:
Quirky_Ambassador808@reddit
Yep! Most of the tribalism and gatekeeping comes from a bunch of insecure weirdos.
For the life of me, I have no idea why fanboys of a certain distro obese over getting noobs to read manuals/handbooks (like it’s the fucking bible or something).
burritoresearch@reddit
Installing Debian is in no way "hard" or should be compared to the manual steps of installing arch. Whoever wrote that is smoking crack.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Linus is smoking crack, I'll tell him lol.
https://youtu.be/qHGTs1NSB1s
burritoresearch@reddit
ten years ago
Have you installed Debian recently, or even like, release 9 or newer?
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I agree with you, and I should have been clear that Linus said this ten years ago lol.
beanlord564@reddit
TLDR: linus is above this Linux elitist bullshit.
devloperfrom_AUS@reddit
Factos!
Shiro39@reddit
I mean, he created Linux and miilions of people already know about it, so why'd he flex it?
kokoroshita@reddit
Absolutely.
Time to banish the RTFM attitude, and embrace a respect for users that want it simple with visual aids.
thedanyes@reddit
If the Linux Foundation had 1/1000th the marketing budget of Apple or Microsoft, the common belief about Linus would be that he's literally the messiah, and perspectives about whether he's 'an elitist' would be laughed at as completely irrelevant.
kokoroshita@reddit
Lol I love this
kokoroshita@reddit
Points for the fedora recommendation!!
Pongo_1976@reddit
Well I use Debian precisely because it works out of the box.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I guess Linus would be happy to know that they took he's constructive criticisms to heart because when he tried Debian in the 2000s it was hard to install and setup.
Pongo_1976@reddit
Yeah it used to be quite esoteric back then.
prototyperspective@reddit
Very much agree except that Debian is not nearly as difficult as this post makes it seem. An issue with Ubuntu is that it doesn't come with KDE which is much more familiar and user-friendly so I'd rather mention Kubuntu. For difficulties with Debian, I think those could and should be solved, so for example the repos are set up during installation and any drivers if needed installed automatically afterwards. Other than that, I wished people wouldn't just look at the software itself but also the websites and so on. The antique Debian website is a result of the elitism.
Slight_Manufacturer6@reddit
KDE is only more familiar if you come from Windows or KDE. It is more configurable to meet about any needs.
prototyperspective@reddit
Yes, that's why it's either more familiar by default or you can configure it so that it's just like you wish it to be or how it's familiar.
Slight_Manufacturer6@reddit
I just disagree with the familiar part as not everyone comes from Windows. Some start with Mac which is more like Gnome, or my kids started with Linux first.
Love KDE, but familiarity is relative to each user.
To the majority it will be more familiar, but not everyone and many would argue that default cinnamon is more familiar to Windows users.
Desperate-Emu-2036@reddit
I actually hate Linux users because I don't feel superiority towards them.
pilottzn@reddit
I'm surprised to hear that Debian is considered a "hard" distro... It's been my go-to for its stability and I find it to be just as easy as Windows
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Debian was harder back in the day, around the 2000s when Linus tried it.
Admirable-Safety1213@reddit
Linus wants to work, not to play hacker
mistermeeble@reddit
As a longtime Windows user who made the switch earlier this year, I went with Arch because that approach seemed to be a straightforward way of learning how the various software pieces involved fit together, trying different things, and seeing what I liked/disliked.
I've played with Ubuntu desktop several times in the past, but I'd always get stuck or break something and be completely lost trying to even figure what to google to find solutions. That's not Ubuntu's fault, but by hiding complexity to keep things "easy", it prevented me from even a basic understanding of basic concepts like the difference between a display server vs a compositor.
It's very possible I'll switch to a lower-maintenance distro in the future, but for now I'm still learning and feels like a good place to be. I think the "best" distro is always going to be whatever suits the needs of the person using it at that time.
slick8086@reddit
What you call "elitist Linux users" seem to be just a different version of apple fanboys. Whatever reasons they give are bullshit.
People who use computers as tools to do their job, usually don't have this ridiculous attitude.
I been using linux since the mid 90's, when you had to a lot of tedious crap to get it working. People who "prefer" doing tedious crap for no other reason than to make themselves feel good are just masturbating.
Little_Reputation102@reddit
Elitism is a heady mix of skill and inexperience. As the inexperience wears away you hopefully begin to understand that you know much, much less than you thought you did, and there are plenty of valid reasons for someone to do something you might have thought lesser. Ding! You just leveled up.
Bakoro@reddit
Sometimes it's just people being shitty, and wanting a way to feel superior.
Those people will latch onto any reason whatsoever, and if there's nothing special about what they do, they'll latch onto the unearned aspects of themselves even harder.
palmer_dabbelt@reddit
I think most kernel developers don't think Linux is all that good, just that it's the best ;)
3G6A5W338E@reddit
Why is it surprising?
Linus has never had such an attitude.
Masterflitzer@reddit
debian ain't hard anymore, imo even simpler than ubuntu with all their weird choices, not comparable to arch really
i love debian and fedora both
zeanox@reddit
Because linux elitism is idiotic.
proton_badger@reddit
Tribalism and a need for validation are unfortunately prominent human traits.
syklemil@reddit
I think it needs pointing out that the people who use distros like Arch or Gentoo don't use it because it's hard, they accept the extra work because it gives them something in return.
You also generally don't compile packages yourself in Arch. It has a system that lets users package software for themselves and share the recipe with others, if the package isn't in the main distro repos.
What they gain is generally
Terminals are also pretty handy tools for devs and power users. Human beings can communicate pretty well using words and language, even written down. For some of us, that's user friendly, unlike non-composable, non-automatable tools.
proton_badger@reddit
I used Linux since the nineties with Slackware, and I used rolling distros for a while, for me it was really just more of a hobby at the time, that's what it gave me. These days I prefer a stable all included distro, Fedora or Ubuntu LTS derivative. I just want to get to where my dev environments and Steam games are ready asap because coding and gaming is where my focus is now.
XzwordfeudzX@reddit
Exactly. I'd also add that you gain an independence from US tech companies. Without an understanding of how systems work and ability to change things, you're basically at their mercy, and they do abuse their powers.
You also learn a TON. I come up with much better technical solutions that save tons of engineering hours thanks to having a deep understanding of Linux.
Wu_Fan@reddit
I am elitist over people who are elitist. A meta-elitist. And yet, I am somehow not elitist.
YOYOWORKOUT@reddit
i use linux because i can't afford a new computer + 140$ windows
am I an elite , or just poor :( ?
YOYOWORKOUT@reddit
PS : nethertheless, I do donate sometimes (small amounts ) to KDE.e.v.
Slight_Manufacturer6@reddit
Hard distros like Debian? That is the only part that I am confused about. Debian is pretty much as easy as the rest…
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Debian used to be hard in the early 2000s.
Slight_Manufacturer6@reddit
Right. Was this just a really old quote? Ubuntu wasn’t even a thing back then and most distros were fairly difficult… unless you wanted to go the Lindows route.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
It's from 2007. But Linus' philosophy still holds water though, the point of a distro is ease of use.
Slight_Manufacturer6@reddit
I can agree with that then.
minion71@reddit
Using mint on main and ultramarine (fedora with codec preinstalled) on framework 13. It just work. I dont have time anymore to thinker, family, work, etc
Sewesakehout@reddit
Interesting. I've been a linux user since 2012 and in the begining I needed to do a bunch or tarball compiling. Biggest issues then were getting the dependancies right. But these days everything I would ever need is in the repos or there is a flatpak for it. I went from Ubuntu to Sabayon back to Ubuntu then Crunchbang then Debian then Ubuntu again then Pop! OS then finally settling for Fedora which I've been on for the last four years.
PrestigiousCorner157@reddit
I think you may be placing too much value on Torvalds' opinion. He is just a guy like everyone else, no better than you are. You are a valuable person with your own experiences and they are no less real or valuable than Torvalds'. So why worry about what Torvalds thinks? Do you have to compile software to be valuable? Of course not. You are a person; that makes you valuable.
Besides, Torvalds gets too much credit anyway. A typical "Linux" system like Android or NixOS is much more than just the kernel that Torvalds made. And even the Linux kernel is made by many more people than just Torvalds. And none of those people's opinions about you matter.
dcherryholmes@reddit
I miss when computers were weaker and we had to compile things. Those were called "smoke breaks." Or perhaps even "I'm going home and will screen-in to check on this later."
Effing fast computers and their pre-compiled "repos"....
SirCharlesTupperBt@reddit
More Linux "evangelists" would do well to pay attention to Linus. I'm not saying he's perfect, but a big part of why Linux has been so successful is that he's always been as non-ideological as you can be and still have a set of principles and guiding rules.
Even his famous "rants" from the LKML are almost always very sensible and reasonable, in-context, if you know the history or understand the bigger picture of what he's trying to communicate and don't just read a single email or sentence.
OpenBSD is a great counter-example. I admire the project and it's intentions, the software itself is also pretty damn good at what it's trying to do, but it's not a community that feels anywhere near as welcoming, even when you are a turbo-nerd who is obsessed about security software hygiene over all other things.
Linus is somebody far more worthy of emulation than most tech celebrities. He also attributes much of his success to luck, hard work, and the strong Finnish educational system. He doesn't have his head so far up his own ass that he thinks he's made of magic, all while making lots of money and working on something he really cares about.
TaeCreations@reddit
Why would he be an ellitist ? Linux started out as a small project just for fun and while I doubt that he still sees it as such, I'd be surprised that he sees it as this all important thing ellitists sees it as
Gurgarath@reddit
I would say it is not surprising. You cannot really get a tech to be widespread if you are closed to its simplification and you cannot be "the face" of something if you are too elitist or hermetic to the rest.
That being said, Linux is a tool, he is a kernel developer and time is better spent working on the actual kernel than updating, compiling and tinkering with your own OS, so he basically picked the right tool for his use case.
Also, as someone said, elitists, regardless of the subject (music, games, tech...) are often pedantic and will try to appear more knowledgeable or "tech-wizards" than they actually are. Linus has proven his knowledge and does not need to rely on artificial difficulty to appear knowledgeable and this is something that you might experience in real life, the more you meet with high level engineers and developers and the easier they are to approach and the less prone to judge they are (maybe there is some Dunning-Kruger down the line).
Regardless, if you aim to make your workstation actually work, tinkering on it everytime or distro-hopping is not the best of choice, as I said it all goes down to what you need and to pick the right tool for your use case. I personally use Debian for servers and Arch for my desktop, not because they are "hard" or "elite" but just because they fit my usage, are bloat-free and I slap on it exactly what I need and call it a day. But I have to spend the first hours or days making it fit my needs, which would not especially be the case if I were to use Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint or EndeavourOS, which are absolutely necessary and great distributions and I encourage anyone who wants a clean Linux experience to pick.
sakodak@reddit
The first kernel version I used was .99pl13, I think. 1992-1993, some time around then.
Slackware existed. I was good friends with Ian Murdock who went on to create Debian.
Over the years I used a lot of different distros, or threw something together from scratch for various projects.
These days most of the time for desktop use I'd rather use a Chromebook. It's got a terminal and shell if I need it to connect to a server. My gaming rig has been Windows for years, after trying to use Linux for years before that (for various reasons I suspect this will change back soon.)
Gatekeepers are insecure people who are deathly afraid they'll be called out for not knowing something.
Us older folk have mostly resigned ourselves to the fact that nobody knows everything and everyone should just chill the fuck out.
tomkatt@reddit
Everyone has their use case. I don’t see why people wouldn’t like him over this. Hell, he basically made this and is still active in kernel development decades later.
I also get where he’s coming from, as I also want the OS to get out of the way so I can do my thing. It’s part of why I dislike Windows so much, it’s obtrusive. I stayed on Ubuntu for many years because it “just worked” for my needs until they started heavily pushing snaps and I found it frustrating and slow. I switched after 20.04.
I now use EndeavorOS for the same reasons. All the benefits of bleeding edge Arch but with a simple installer and it just works, and the more recent kernel has been better for gaming related stuff given the clip things have been moving at in recent years.
vrchmvgx@reddit
I took an intermediate CS class in Linux administration, lectured by a sysadmin that had been working with Linux since before 1.0. When he was asked if it was permissible to use Gentoo for assignments, his response was just that he got done proving himself in the nineties and no longer saw any reason to be using overly technical distros for mundane setups. It did definitely turn a lot of people's ships around who had come into that class with something to prove.
NoxAstrumis1@reddit
It makes sense. People who achieve great things tend to be result oriented. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't get much done.
JohnClark13@reddit
From my experience, the people who have elitist attitudes (in all life not just Linux) are the people who aren't actually doing anything. The people who are doing work don't have the time or energy to waste on trying to prove that they're better than anyone else.
HotKarl_Marx@reddit
I was a HUGE fan of Ubuntu for years, but snap has really turned me off. REALLY turned me off.
trusterx@reddit
Snap, mir, upstart... But I liked unity.
jeretel@reddit
I've been using Linux since 2000 and I have zero interest in distributions that require a lot of setup. Linux is the tool that helps me get stuff done. If I have to set up the tool I have no interest. I also use Fedora because it just works.
robberviet@reddit
Isn't it well known that he even use a Macbook? Just need it to works.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Didn't he also install Linux on his Macbook?
vim_deezel@reddit
yep. He couldn't really do his linux work on macos unless he used a VM or docker-like layer.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Yes, that's exactly my experience too. My brother gifted me a MacBook Air 2020 last year, and I've been using VMware Fusion to run Xubuntu 24.04 on it.
vim_deezel@reddit
sorry that someone downvoted you, it wasn't me, I gave you an upvote
ReidenLightman@reddit
Distros and elitists love to brag about the documentation. In reality, documentation is very hard to read and understand. And being given commands to put in a terminal without any explanation of what its parts means can feel like you're not learning anything and will be stuck following guides to do anything. That's the biggest and most awful part of CLI workflows. You either know the commands or you don't. It's like a history test. Meanwhile, with a GUI, you can at least be presented with easy navigation through different layers of menus with options, so it's more like a math test where you can figure out the answer instead of having to know it just from reading the question.
"A day with a good teacher is more valuable than a thousand of diligent study" -African Proverb
In a world where everybody is feeling detached from one another due to social media and sitting behind screens, it's not worth our time to divide ourselves more. Helping others out can be a great way of growing the community. Answering questions is a good way to test our own knowledge and understanding. People who ask for help at least are brave enough to admit they don't know an answer. Angry elitists saying "just read the f***ing guides" maybe don't know as much as they think they know.
Moltenlava5@reddit
Linus may not be an elitist towards linux distributions but he sure as hell (and rightfully so!) is an elitist when it comes to kernel contributions. It's become somewhat of a meme how rude he is towards kernel contributors when they royally fuck up.
I don't know, I just found it ironic that there is a post praising him for this behaviour in this specific niche when he is of the exact opposite character in a field he is quite passionate about. Claiming that Linus isn't an "elitist" in the general sense is a bit of a stretch.
dahippo1555@reddit
Maybe torvalds has is a bit harsh on LKML.
But without him what would it be? Windows? Mac?
Both unsuitable, because they are driven by sales not being the best.
autophage@reddit
I still remember the audio clip of him saying "Hello, my name is Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce 'Linux': 'Linux'."
It was just incredibly charming.
CarlosFCSP@reddit
I pity the fool that defined himself by his "superior" Linux distro
Keely369@reddit
XD
Yeah but once they're networked.. I love it when a LAN comes together..
benitton@reddit
Debían does not require to compile all programs, I’ve been using as a replacement for Ubuntu for a while (I moved away after they decided you needed to go to their Pro tier to provide security updates for some of the programs I used) While I know how to compile stuff in Linux, it’s been something I rarely do unless I get curious about some cool stuff at GitHub.
AcoustixAudio@reddit
So do I
postmodest@reddit
Anyone who's been in it since the beginning and has used other Unices or non-windows OSes, knows that Linux is just a tool, and being elitist about Linux is like being elitist about your hammer, and not the house you built with it.
DIYnivor@reddit
I've been using Linux since the late 90s, and I use Mint because it's easy and just works. Linux is just a tool to get shit done. Some people make it their identity.
Keely369@reddit
I don't see much elitism whatsoever. I guess Arch users would be a group that might be framed as having a lot of this, however all I see is a bunch of enthusiasts.. hell they've even got a sense of humour, BTW.
monkeynator@reddit
The simplest explanation is that it doesn't fit his personality, he's in the group that wants something that works and doesn't really care about tweaking every possible setting.
berf@reddit
This is the main reason. Just not his style. He really gets pissed off by coders who think there are good reasons to break userspace. He wants stuff that works. Being cool is very secondary.
mattias_jcb@reddit
Lots of kernel-, Mesa-, Wayland and other low-level userspace developers use Fedora for it being relatively well integrated, up to date, close to upstream and simple to install.
Spicy_Poo@reddit
Since when is Debian a hard distro?
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Debian used to be hard in the 2000s when Linus tried it.
long_trailer@reddit
It loyal. So it should not allow guests x.
mixedd@reddit
And it doesn't surprise me at all, if I need to choose system where I need to thinker with and do shit ton of postinstall and optimisations, or one which I install and can get to work after 5min, guess what
shemanese@reddit
All operating systems suck. They just suck in different ways.
If you're that far into development, you get to see the flaws in detail.
JaniceisMaxMouse@reddit
Even from the MIS standpoint this rings true.
Just in the last 2 months:
Last month's Microsoft updates deleted Copilot.. This is not a bug, but a feature. But you might want to explain why you're dumping 80 billion dollars into AI but delete your own app that is a gateway to this investment.
Apple. They just up and red pilled themselves.. Again with AI.. Basically, just STAAAPPP!! take a breather and pull off another Snow Leopard.. It's fine. You can release another sticker pack if you wish..
And please, could some Fortune 100 company. I'm looking at you Microsoft and Google. Release a client for your cloud syncing natively. It's not like you don't have the infrastructure already. Hell, it runs your cloud services.
It's strange to me that the OS that is responsible for AI development is the one that is least likely to push it as an OS update.
jonathanmstevens@reddit
I love this statement. So true.
thenoisemanthenoise@reddit
Yea I use Ubuntu after using Manjaro for some years. It was after the fucking Manjaro stopped working because of a unknown misconfiguration on the video driver in the middle of a very important project that I was doing, that I said to myself "fuck reddit and all those fucking nerds I have a life, I'm tirei of fixing my distro".
Then I changed to Ubuntu and never had a driver problem again. So fuck yall, even Linus is tired of this shit
prevenientWalk357@reddit
Linus herds cats (engineers and other coders of vetting backgrounds) to drive kernel development in a more or less cohesive way. That’s gotta be humbling.
creeper6530@reddit
Well, given how he acts from time to time, he's obviously still a human. For example the recent removal of Russian maintainers.
creeper6530@reddit
Debian nowadays isn't a hard distro by any means.
paulshriner@reddit
I don't understand the elitist attitude about Linux at all. Isn't the goal to get more people off of Windows? Many Windows users have never used a terminal once, if you tell them something like "oh it's so easy to install xyz, all you need to do is install the associated dependencies, clone the git repo, then build and install it", they will probably look at you like you're speaking a different language. There's certainly a point to building and configuring everything manually, but most users, even experienced ones, just want to use their computer.
I use Fedora as it's fairly simply to set up and just works after that. I'm sure I could figure out Arch or Gentoo, but the amount of time and effort I'd spend to install and maintain it is not worth it.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Here's the article I read about Linus Torvalds's views on distros and the reaction of the Slackware users Linus.
From this reaction, it kinda seems that Slackware users that disagree with Linus are gatekeeping their distro from idiots like me, people like me who don't know how to compile software from source, those who like GUIs.
NinaMercer2@reddit
I still use the terminal for installing steam because it's fast and easy, but yeah I tend to prefer CLI.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I see the use of the Terminal for installing stuff from apt or flatpak, but I'd never use the Terminal for viewing my home folder though, I'd rather use a GUI file manager like Thunar.
bleepblooOOOOOp@reddit
As a teenager I printed out the entire Linux From Scratch manual to be able to manually build a basically way worse version of Slackware with less features in the longest time possible (not ripping on Slackware, it was my first linux love).
It was hard and my system was.. not fun to use at all. Long way to say I appreciate modern distributions like Ubuntu and – in my case – Fedora so, so much.
Phydoux@reddit
For me, the thing with Arch is, once you get it installed, it's done. You really only need to keep it updated.
And once you get the GUI you want installed, it's just a matter of installing the programs that you want/need. Once you get what is needed for your day to day computer lifestyle, that's it. Just use it the way you need to use it.
Also, I keep a backup of my GUI config file as well as all of my program configuration files. That way, if I install Arch on a new machine, I can have that new machine looking like the old one as soon as I get everything I want installed and my config files copied over, I'm good to go.
So, for me, I don't mind installing Arch from scratch. In fact I really enjoy it. It's a fun distro to install and when you first boot into it after installing the base system, it's pretty rewarding to see it boot up to a command prompt login.
Then from there I install the GUI, login manager and any programs I might need for the GUI to function.
A few times, I'd forget about installing a terminal emulator... Whoops! A few times rebooting the ISO, mounting everything again and then installing the terminal program taught me to never forget about the terminal emulator.
But again, that's what I love about Arch. You add only what you need to the system. It doesn't come with a bunch of stuff you're never going to use. Everything that you install, is what you need.
PembeChalkAyca@reddit
Wait, can't you install a terminal emulator from tty?
Phydoux@reddit
Heh, ya know, I never thought of that you're probably right. Ctrl+alt+ an F key in awesome would drop me to a TTY. Never thought of that.
I've only forgotten to add a terminal emulator twice but yeah, you're right. That's the better way to install a terminal emulator. TTY is the way to go. 😄
vinnypotsandpans@reddit
Do you have any sources (no pun intended) for this? I find it hard to believe that he's averse to building from source given that he wrote the Linux kernel lol
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Sources:
vinnypotsandpans@reddit
Bravo for summarizing this words extremely accurately. Literally says I know I can compile them I'd just rather not.
I was wrong. Thanks for your well informed post.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I agree with what Linus said, compiling software from source defeats the purpose of a distro, a distro should be easy to install and use and install software on.
vinnypotsandpans@reddit
If you wanna do it, cool! But you shouldnt have to :)
PembeChalkAyca@reddit
Linux elitism is stupid and childish. I'm just happy that a FOSS operating system exists and is accessible to everyone. Without user-friendly distros I wouldn't be able to learn about Linux enough to use the blessing that is AUR now.
FaintChili@reddit
It is not, actually. Gatekeepers are those who feel insecure about their capacities. He is not like that.
No-Bison-5397@reddit
I don’t care what anyone says.
Arch is DIY and rolling release. Which actually means I have a bunch of smart cookie maintainers doing the work of making sure most of the software is compatible and buildable, I have relatively up to date software, and it is configured to be a single user machine (Debian $PATH 🤮).
You look at the issues that fedora has had changing packages from upstream etc etc and I think Arch’s approach works for me. Both for development and for entertainment.
But I get that not everyone wants to update all their packages every time they log in. I get that some people like consistency of having their work distro be similar to their personal distro, and I get that some people plain don't like the way Arch does things.
Having lots of distros and flavours et cetera is good. It means we can get closer to the system we want and have to customise our systems less.
vinnypotsandpans@reddit
What did Debian ever do to you :(
No-Bison-5397@reddit
Literally only ever the default config for $PATH.
I even think the philosophy behind it makes sense it just goes against my muscle memory. Great distro done by talented and well meaning people. .deb is a great format. The work they have done has done immeasurable good for the world.
It’s just not for me when I have it in my hands I feel way more adept and at home with Arch.
vinnypotsandpans@reddit
I like the philosophy behind it too. I love Debian actually. But the "dontbreakdebian" folks can get a little overzealous haha
No-Bison-5397@reddit
Dontbreakdebian pretty much described why I prefer Arch
IntroductionNo3835@reddit
The cool thing about Linux is everyone uses whatever distribution they want and this has nothing to do with arrogance. It has to do with the philosophy of Linux and free software. FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
I've been using fedora since fedora 0. I used Red hat before. But we have computers with debiam and Ubuntu because of older and specific packages.
I would like to test gentoo to be able to better configure the system. I don't do it due to lack of time.
I would like to use other graphical interfaces, less heavy and faster, as I switch between windows a lot. I don't like using the mouse, I prefer the keyboard for its agility. Graphical interfaces, in addition to being heavy, block productivity and facilitate loss of focus.
I use the emacs text editor, the first free software in history, it is the best editor there is. It just requires training.
I don't use emacs to show off, it's just that with it I can be more efficient.
So, when a user specializes in some distribution or software, they don't do it to show off as they mistakenly put it. It's a question of freedom, a basic and fundamental principle of free software.
Want to use the default? Use.
It just doesn't make sense to talk bad about those who use others....
When you learn how to use one of these more "boring" softwares you will see that it has its advantages. This is not theoretical it is real.
Another point is that the existence of others generates competition and this leads to constant improvements.
Don't kill the Linux philosophy by defending a single distro.
Historical_Fondant95@reddit
I really really dont care, use the distro u want lol
No_Code9993@reddit
It doesn't surprise me. ☺️
Seems like we assuming that Linus is an elithist because it wrote the kernel, but there's a wide variety of software around the Linux kernel that compose what we call "distro".
Most of them not even wrote by himself, having their life cycle without is supervision, or being just optional, why he should care in depth about those, and even waste time to configure them?
That's a pretty normal approach to many Linux users out there, and even those that knows everything about every softwares and like to configure them by theirself, keeps every old confs a part as a backup for future usages.
Noboday really wants to spend days in configure something everytime... 🙃
vagrantprodigy07@reddit
I personally would never lump Debian in with Arch or Gentoo. That sounds kind of crazy.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
No need to be elitist about it. They’re operating systems, not religions.
Choice is a nice thing to have.
MichiruNakam@reddit
Some people loves to treat tools as religions (I’m watching at you, Rust)
HieladoTM@reddit
-"Don't criticize C#/C++, bro, just love it from a distance and rewrite everything in Rust."
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I read Linus Torvalds dislikes C++ because he believes it introduces unnecessary complexity and abstraction that can lead to inefficiencies and make code harder to maintain. He believes that C++ does not solve the core issues of C and can make things worse due to its complexity.
vinnypotsandpans@reddit
I'm not sure if he actually said this, but there is truth to it. C is a simple language. C++ is more complex. A long time ago, before CPP had such a large user base, it probably did lead to inefficiencies
syklemil@reddit
Look, C++ isn't my favorite language either, but this "Linus Torvalds …" line of reasoning comes off as an argument from authority. Torvalds isn't a holy figure, and the rest of us don't have to treat his opinions as gospel. We can discuss the merits and demerits of a language on a technical basis without framing it all in terms of "so-and-so said so".
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
It's a powerful programming language, obviously, but it isn't perfect. Nothing is.
syklemil@reddit
Eh, as far as I can tell there's more religion in the crowd that considers Rust users heretics—Rust users generally just have a tool they like, which seems to bother some people.
My impression the in-group/out-group dynamic going on there is mostly from the people who consider Rust users an outgroup, and will be annoyed by anything those people do, much like the people who consider Linux users an outgroup and wish they would go away, or at least never mention Linux again.
We could all sit here and deliberate about our prejudices towards users of this or that programming language, editor, desktop environment, etc, but it is ultimately a useless exercise that isn't helpful to society.
Sarke1@reddit
While not Linux based, TempleOS is close.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
Hey, if that's what they like, none of my business.
vim_deezel@reddit
To me it's a way of using software. I will almost always choose FOSS over alternatives unless it's just completely impractical, aka I am not going to lose my job because I refuse to use commercial software.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
I'm not one to think commercial software doesn't have its place. Sometimes commercial software is exactly what I need to do what I want. But if I can do it with FOSS, I will.
starvaldD@reddit
He doesn't need to, we already know don't we.
arch btw hehe.
ZunoJ@reddit
So now you feel like a reverse elitist? Is that what you want to say? Why do you make it sound like everybody who uses a 'hard distro' is a prick?
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
No. I believe in respecting choice. So, if you like Gentoo or Arch, good for you, I respect your choice, but don't rub it into the faces of newbies or other Linux users that may just want a system that works so I can just watch YouTube all day, and don't say, unless you use my preferred Linux distro, you're not a true Linux user, and yes, I've encountered them.
ZunoJ@reddit
I encounter a lot more people like you, who keep this linux elitist story alive and keep feeding into it. You try to make people feel bad about their choices because 'even linus uses Ubuntu' and then somehow make it about the other guys. Get a life
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
What, were you expecting me to say, "Oh yes, I'm a reverse elitist, and I think every Gentoo and Arch user is prick."
Ha, hate to burst your bubble, but I'm not like that. For me, Linux is about diversity and respecting other people's choices.
ZunoJ@reddit
Thats a pretty meta view on an OS. To me linux is about running software and getting work done
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Exactly, that's why I love distros like Ubuntu, Linux Mint, etc for ease of use in allowing me to get my work done and watch YouTube.
But if you like hard distros, distros that allows you to learn all about the what happens inside the hood of your computer, and if your hobby is configuring system files, compiling software from source, then I respect that, but don't brag about it and rub it into a newbies face though.
ZunoJ@reddit
Why can't everybody just enjoy whatever they want AND talk about it openly. If you feel intimidated by others talking about compiling their systems from scratch, that is your problem and has nothing to do with other and all with you feeling inferior for no reason (like you said in your initial post). Nobody is 'rubbing it in your face', we just like to talk about stuff
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
It's not just talking about stuff.
Here's an example of Linux elitism. I like Windows 10's look and feel, and I found a theme pack to make my system look like Windows 10, minus the start menu icon of course, I still like to be reminded I'm running Linux. However, when I reveal this to other Linux users, they insult me for making Linux look like Windows.
Why can't Linux users just respect someone else's choice?
If you can't see that there's a toxic side to the Linux community, you're blind or you refuse to acknowledge it.
ZunoJ@reddit
I don't see any elitism in your example. Theres just a guy claiming there is, just like you did. I mean sure there is but that is the case with any topic that has a bit of a learning curve. There will allways be people who think they are better than the newbies or casual users. But I don't see how linux is worse than literally any other topic
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Okay, well, the point of this thread is that Linus Torvalds has a similar mindset to me, I like distros that are simple to install and use, simple to maintain, simple to update, simple to install software on it without going through much hassle.
I like Linus's way of thinking, and when I first started out on Linux, I thought that Linus must be this super Linux user that compiles software from scratch, created his own personal distro with the latest kernel builds, and has terminal windows all over his screen.
But as I read up on the man, I learned he was like me, a regular person who likes easy to use distros like Ubuntu. This makes me feel better and less inferior knowing that the creator of Linux is like me.
vivals5@reddit
He's saying "everybody who uses a 'hard distro' is a prick" just as much as you're saying "everybody who uses an 'easy distro' is a prick". Stop putting words into other people's mouths. At most the OP sounds relieved that there are others, even experienced users, who don't care about "hard vs easy distro", but just want something that works.
And for the record: there ARE elitists who consider themselves better just for using distro X. Just because you use those distros doesn't make you an elitist.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Yes, that's why I said in my post, it makes me feel better about myself that the creator of Linux has a similar position to me makes feel less inferior.
Remarkable_Step_6177@reddit
Isn't the point of solutions to simplify?
DottoDev@reddit
There was one Interview where he said that just because he is a kernel developer doesn't mean he is good in setting up and using linux distributions. He uses fedora because it is up to date and he can install it on his and his family members computers without much maintaining effort.
propostor@reddit
I have never understood the elitist attitude that pervades some Linux discussions. Almost always someone will make a condescending point about how one should just learn to use the cli and mash out a hundred different instructions to make things work.
The whole point of modern operating systems is that things should just work. It's nice to know Linus Torvalds feels similar.
kowoba@reddit
Debian is hard? PowerPC? Huh.
Lord_Wisemagus@reddit
Im very new to linux, (Cachy, btw,) and havent looked back once so far. Most people just use their OS as a bootloader for their web browser, and dont sit and have time or energy to have to compile and configure everything. I've spend a lot of time with that stuff myself because i find it fun and interesting, but I'd never recommend a switch to someone that just want a Windows experience. If thats what you want, stick with Windows.
nonesense_user@reddit
OP interprets weird things into distribution choice?
I use Arch and Fedora. I consider packaging for Arch easy. And maintaining the system. I assume Linus uses what is comfortable solution depending on the situation. My other system is using Fedora, because of vanilla GNOME and I don’t need much modifications - only Steam for gaming.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
For me, Linux is about diversity and respecting other people's choices. I respect you like to use Arch and Gentoo,
And Linus Torvalds' choice of distro, easy to use and configure, makes me feel better about myself that the creator of Linux has a similar position to me makes feel less inferior.
Rcomian@reddit
i love Gentoo, I've used it for nearly 20 years. i roll with hyprland and customise every aspect. it's brilliant, it's also hell, no sane person should do this.
if i want to just get stuff done, i tend to use pop os. but in that case I'm not too fussy, I'll use whatever works.
i really feel that linux is lacking in basic reliability compared to systems like windows and macos. yeah they have their own faults, but they do generally just work.
nonesense_user@reddit
For "just work" I default to Fedora. If deemed necessary I add the video-codecs from RPM Fusion.
I would recommend Debian for "just work" because it provides high reliability and a straightforward TUI installer. But Debian's upgrade cycle for internal (Kernel + Mesa) is slow and firmware policies (choosing right ISO) make them a difficult match for a new laptop.
It is always Linux and GNU. Distributions care about installer, package-manager and managing the packages. Technical differences are minor, only versions. The diversity is built by our individual choices. If Linux is pre-installed 90% will keep the default GNOME or KDE, the Steamdeck is the example.
senectus@reddit
Dude really only thinks in terms of kernel i suspect.
And that's in all versions :-D
zeels@reddit
How can one say Debian is a hard distro ? I don’t get it. Installation is done in few clicks with a fully functional GUI of your flavor of choice.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Debian used to be hard in the 2000s. I believe that was when Linus tried it.
wreath3187@reddit
first time I installed debian was 2004-ish and it felt hard but I was exited when I got it to work. these days it's a breeze.
Daniel_mfg@reddit
While that is really interesting to know. (And also interesting to hear his preferences)
I wanna mention one thing: Arch actually isn't that hard to install... And you don't have to compile everything yourself... (You can but I know MANY who don't..)
A manual install is great for learning a LOT about linux and computers but nowadays there are also a bunch of automated ways to install arch which work almost the same way a ubuntu install works... And because of how Arch handles a bunch of configs out of the box i personally find it easier to handle some things long term than some other distros.
I personally can recommend giving it a look a lot 😁 (Even if you start out by just installing EndeavorOS with KDE or something)
But of course: use whatever you like! THAT in my eyes is the beauty of Linux in general...
SleepyGuyy@reddit
because he's based
l-roc@reddit
Why is it surprising to you?
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
When I first started out on Linux, I thought that Linus must be a super Linux user that compiles software from scratch, creates his own personal distro.
But as I read up on the man, I learned he was like me, a regular person who likes easy to use distros like Ubuntu. This makes me feel better and less inferior knowing that the creator of Linux is like me.
CaptainObvious110@reddit
Pretty much
james_pic@reddit
I feel like if Linux had been created by the kind of person who ran their own bespoke distro and loved tinkering with every part of it, it wouldn't have been as successful as it is today.
There are a few principles Linus has followed, like always exposing a stable ABI to userspace, that a tinkerer wouldn't have thought was important, but that's been a huge enabler for many use cases. This is especially true in enterprise settings, where being able to run old software on new kernels vastly simplifies lifecycle planning. The current trend of containerisation has been significantly enabled by this too.
sonofulf@reddit
He has nothing to prove.
ExpectTheWorse@reddit
I use Arch btw,
The best way to describe why I use it for work too is cause I have failsafe and backups in place which has nothing to do with Arch itself, this is just a mandatory requirement for using digital computers.
As to why people like me use and prefer CLI and highly configurable systems is ofc the obvious reasons choose what you want, and blazing fast productivity once get used to it... but the main reason is... it's a hobby.
People who use it like having a hobby accompanied by their work skills. Having to break stuff up sometimes, rice, rice, rice. Optimizing, and finding not out-of-the-box things is part of the fun...
TLDR;
It's not a hassle, it's a time-investing hobby.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
The thing is, based off what I've experienced in the Linux community since 2012, it's rubbing it into a Linux users' face that you use Arch is the problem. Based off my own experience, elitist Linux users think installing a hard as nails distro, living inside the Terminal, and compiling software from starch is a right of passage in Linux.
I've heard statements like:
barnaboos@reddit
The biggest issue of this is it how's against the whole ethos and growth of FOSS. Being elitist is the direct opposite of the idea of free, open and accessible software for all.
Linux would be nowhere near the 4℅ user base without the likes of Ubuntu and Mint. Arguably those distros are more important that Arch or Gentoo as they provide entry for those who don't even know what a terminal is, let alone how to use one (as most don't when first switching to Linux).
Without distros like Ubuntu and Mint for home users and Suse and Red Hat for companies then Linux would be nothing but a hobby for nerds.
FOSS for all only works if barriers to its use are taken down by making it accessible.
Elitism doesn't really fit FOSS.
Mal_Dun@reddit
This 200% !
The idea of FOSS was to make people less dependent on big tech. Elitist behavior and hard to use software won't help the mission but hurt it. It's fine when people want to do fun and hacky stuff, but by the love of god don't think this is what the everage user wants nor is capable off.
ExpectTheWorse@reddit
The opinion of a community doesn't make you have more than 24 hours in a day, Those people who say you are not a Linux user until u have done this and that is probably justifying the time sink they did, not ignoring they learned a shitton..well don't know if learning that was useful or not but can't deny they did learn a shit ton more...but again this is just hobby...
If you have time then do it, if you have other hobbies you can have the same opinion about your hobbies and tell other how they should pursue it not that everyone will listen cause they have other hobbies
isitgonnaexplode@reddit
I'm not a programmer, I'm a designer and i use Zorin atm. I love and prefer Linux, but i have no interest in my OS becoming my full-time hobby. If we want Linux to compete with windows and Mac, then people need to accept there are users like me out there who can't code and who prefer a visual interface.
CyclopsRock@reddit
Lots of people patting themselves on the back in this thread!
Zomunieo@reddit
Red Hat also gifted him shares before they went public and made him a millionaire, so I can see why he’d like them.
phredbull@reddit
I'd like to think that he has more integrity than that.
Zomunieo@reddit
I’m not saying he lacks integrity. It just makes sense that all being equal it’s the brand he’d gravitate to.
purplemagecat@reddit
I find people with real skills don't look down on others like that, they understand how hard it all really is. The elitists just have something to prove at some point
Specialist-Piccolo41@reddit
I discovered roll back on terminal so I can use old commands; handy
Zebra4776@reddit
Some people enjoy configuring and messing with their system. Others don't. Sounds like he's in the latter camp. People have different preferences.
I have his attitude for my work servers and that's why they're all Kubuntu or openSuse. I very much enjoy the endless configuring at home and that's why I run Gentoo. I wouldn't want either system in place of the other.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
Yes, exactly, it's all about choice. I respect your hobby to "enjoy the endless configuring at home and that's why I run Gentoo."
But the moment they start telling people you arent a Linux user if you don't use Gentoo or if you prefer a beginner distro like Ubuntu, then it becomes an issue.
For me, Linux is about diversity and respecting other people's choices.
kp729@reddit
I don't remember which interview but someone asked Linus if he sees himself as a visionary for creating Linux and Git.
He said he's more of the guy who fixes a pothole he sees than one who looks at the sky to envision things.
To me, Linus looks like a very goal oriented person. He doesn't want to change the world, he wants to solve problems. He is very stubborn about how a problem should be solved but he's still a problem solver. Hard to be an elitist with that mindset.
Makeitquick666@reddit
yeah, I remember he saying something along the line of people were here (up in the clouds) and he’s trying to bring people down.
Truly great engineer
BeneficialBat6266@reddit
I’ve never been a Linux elitist have I made something from source—Yes, I couldn’t use pip without breaking the install, apt didn’t have it on its repository, and I just decided “Fuck it I hate doing this but hey… problem solved.”
Obnomus@reddit
Elitists need to know that whatever they're bragging about someone made it and the creator isn't elitist about a tool.
pppjurac@reddit
Few vintage computer enthusiasts even use this. PowerPc is dead as taxidermied dodo apart from few unicorn level usages . Let it be dead and rest in pieces.
JaKrispy72@reddit
He should be on Mint then…
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
He does appreciates Ubuntu for making Debian more user-friendly.
But he prefers Fedora because he'd been using for years and has gotten used to the system.
RandomAIDude@reddit
Fedora for desktop, bazzite for steam deck, NixOS for my server PC (so recreating it if/when it dies is trivial)
Evo221@reddit
He doesn't care about users, he saves his elitist attitude for devs.
whlthingofcandybeans@reddit
Hey, I resent this! You can still be a Linux elitist without being a prick about it.
Heyeeeeeeeah@reddit
Another thing is that if we want Linux to grow, easy to install conventional distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc are the ticket for new users entering the Linux space with no prior understanding Linux systems.
inbetween-genders@reddit
Pretty sure Linus doesn’t deal with constant tech support questions from r/linux4noobs. Homeboy is too busy working on the kernel and screaming at contributing programmers. Well to be fair that was pre 2018. I don’t know him personally nor do I follow his life. I’m just grateful for this OS he got started.
Bob_Spud@reddit
Is he talking about desktop Linux or server Linux? .... they are different beasts.
ardouronerous@reddit (OP)
I think he was referring to his desktop computers at home. All of his home computers, including those of his family, runs Fedora, so when he updates, it's all streamlined.
KurisuAteMyPudding@reddit
Mostly desktop linux in that context I believe.
Mughi1138@reddit
Not so surprising, since from the early days he's always been very pragmatic, as opposed to ESR and RMS. At some point there is the three answering about software.
Silvestron@reddit
I don't think that has anything to do with elitism. Linux is whatever you want it to be, there's nothing special with setups that are harder to install. For me it's mostly OCD, I like having a system that annoys me as little as possible. Other people like ricing and doing of RGB lighting on your hardware. I don't see that as elitism, just personal preference.
zardvark@reddit
The primary reason is that he is the admin for several family members, so he has everyone, including himself, standardized on the same distro and desktop for easier maintenance and problem solving.
jdefr@reddit
That’s because the greatest engineers understand Linux isn’t some magic elixir that makes you smart..
WalterWeizen@reddit
You use the tool and distro that works best for your use case.
Linux is Linux. Whatever you do with that, is up to the individual.
timoshi17@reddit
I'm fairly sure you're talking about him not having the elitist attitude INSIDE linux community
Mister_Magister@reddit
fedora and opensuse are two most based distros