Am I in the wrong?
Posted by Tiny-Definition8160@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 79 comments
I’m currently in a 141 and doing instrument. On my stage 1 oral I failed twice due to bs questions or a technicality. I want to get a second opinion and know if I deserve the failure or are they being too harsh. One question was how does pitot heat work? I answer saying there’s a coil. He wanted more and told me there’s a coil being heated by resistance and powered electrically. 2nd one was the technicality. I explained how a dme works but I mistakenly said the reply pulse is to the VOR instead of ground station. I’m unable to move forward and it’s holding me back. I would understand if this happened in a stage 3 or EOC but stage 1 cmon.
dragonguy0@reddit
As a former 141 instructor:
lul wut.
Yeah, that's WAY too harsh, but apparently the game's gotten a lot harder since I got out \~4 years ago.
patrick99009@reddit
Failed a 141 stage check for not knowing what a SDF approach was. Some of those guys are on a power trip.
BigAffectionate8164@reddit
That is absolutely ridiculous. You should have asked him to identify the location of such an approach.
robdabear@reddit
don't those not exist anymore?
zero_xmas_valentine@reddit
I think the last one just died.
AssholeNeighborVadim@reddit
KMOR killed theirs sometime before Christmas, and I think that was the last one
Swarley02@reddit
Failed final instrument stage check for not knowing what the X symbol on an approach plate was. Asked a bunch of CFIIs at my school if they knew. None did.
It’s the symbol for a CNF or computer navigational fix btw.
320sim@reddit
Yeah power tripping on being a pretend DPE is ridiculous
ManyPandas@reddit
A friend of mine got asked about what an IA was… on his final instrument stage check…
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
If you mean Inspection authorization, we are supposed to know that because there’s a difference between what a A&P can do and what an A&P with IA can do
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
Do o know this? Absolutely. Do I check I research the signature on the logbook? Not at all. If it’s signed it’s signed. Unless I have legitimate concerns that Mx is being signed by unqualified people, that’s simply not our job.
ManyPandas@reddit
Yes, but that seems like its really deep in the weeds for the airworthiness questions on an IFR stage check. PPL, CPL, or CFI, sure, but IFR... ehhh...
SpookyJacooby@reddit
Just did my Stage 3 check yesterday, have been told the whole time that stages 1-3 are basically unfailable and 4-5 is when you really gotta know you're stuff. Maybe my school's just easier than the rest lol
the_eviscerist@reddit
Your original post sounds like they were being harsh, your edit makes it sound like you are lacking some fundamental blocks of learning about how your equipment works. This isn't about rote memorization that the pitot heat has "a coil." It's about understanding it's an electrical component. So, if your electrical system failed, would your pitot heat still work?
Understanding the vacuum system and understanding how your instruments work helps you understand their failure modes. It also helps you understand what instruments you could rely on and which you couldn't if one of your systems goes down while you're flying in IMC.
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
Should I have said it’s electrically powered? Sure, but saying it has a coil already proves so because how else would a coil heat up. And you say I’m lacking the fundamentals but I explained and drew out the vacuum system with each instrument connected and the only part I got wrong was how the two instruments operate on rigidity in space, which is simply just the dynamic of physics. And I explained the best and simplest way as I said that you can imagine the gyro is in place and the aircraft moves around it and that the attitude is fixed on a horizontal arm and the heading is on the vertical one. And knowing beyond this offers no benefit in ADM and if you were to ask any airline pilot the same question I’m sure they would just tell you the basics of it if they even remember it.
the_eviscerist@reddit
What I'm saying is that if I ask someone how pitot heat works and they say "a coil." And that's all they can say, then my assumption is that they memorized that answer. You're right, it is a coil, but being able to articulate what that means (i.e. it's an electrical component that uses resistance to heat up) is what the oral part of stage checks/checkrides is for.
My statement about lacking some fundamental blocks on how your equipment works was a general statement since it seems like you've listed multiple things in that same general category that you were considered unsatisfactory on. One or two things like this could be argued in your favor, but 3+ makes it seem more like a trend that you had a surface level of understanding but lacked the depth that they wanted.
It sucks and maybe you would have passed with a different instructor, but learning and understanding this stuff is part of becoming a pilot. Study some more and get back at it.
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
I understand, thanks for your feedback.
katanameatsword@reddit
Sounds like southern Utah university
asorr91@reddit
Former 141 check instructor here.. this stuff has zero bearing on anything pilot related. What’re you going to do, open up the window and fix a coil in the pitot tube when you’re flying in IMC? Fix a gyro mid flight? No, what’s more important is being able to identify failures and be able to make safe decisions with this new threat. I’m sorry about this.. some people are on an ego trip and have nothing going for them in life except belittling students and jerking it to planes.
LigmaUpDog_@reddit
Or, hear me out, the rest of the oral didn’t go as well as OP thinks it did
the_eviscerist@reddit
The OP added an edit to the post that makes it sound like he really didn't understand how any of his equipment works. Sounds like you hit the nail on the head here.
asorr91@reddit
Definitely a possibility. I’ve seen students completely unaware of how ill prepared they were but If thats true, It’s a check instructors job to give a thorough debrief on what items were unsatisfactory so they know exactly what they need to work on.
Jumpy-Accountant-995@reddit
Had one on review flights for stage. Altitude, heading, airspeed was everywhere (barely outside of standards but it was on both sides of the standard), way behind the airplane the entire time, (finally was configured for the approach AT the FAF), 1500fpm on final approach, missed all radio calls/callouts. Several other smaller things.
In the debrief, I said “let’s do one more before I sign you off. I want everything to be ironed out.” To which student became angry with me and asked why I’m holding him up, he felt that the flight went really well.
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
This makes me like both comments
LigmaUpDog_@reddit
Seems stupid and annoying now but you’re gonna appreciate how easy the actual check rides will be after this much prep, as well as having no check ride failures to report in your airline interview
Also, you should have been able to explain the gyroscopic principles that make your attitude indicator work.
Bot_Marvin@reddit
Why. Why do you need to explain the intricate gyroscopic principles.
Our job as pilots is to operate a flight safely from point A to point B.
Explain to me how that would make one a safer pilot. That is gee-whiz shit that is better saved for the debrief.
A pilot needs to know what an attitude indicator failure looks like, and basic troubleshooting. Anything else is the realm of the A&P or just fun facts.
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
Please explain to me what to add so I know later on
Input_Port_B@reddit
No Walter, you're not wrong. You're just an *sshole!
Would4e@reddit
If that's a DPE you should file a complaint with the FAA. I'm not sure of the process to file a complaint but it's an instrument check, not an engineering degree. I doubt aeronautical engineering students get evaluated on their skills doing steep turns.
Keep in mind that when dealing with such questions keep a positive and non confrontational attitude. Sometimes if you're doing well on an oral, an examiner will ask you increasingly difficult questions to test your limits and keep you in the mindset that we are not all knowing. It is acceptable to answer a question with, "I don't know the answer but I'd be happy to look it up in the AFM." If it's not in the AFM or the instrument training handbooks from the FAA you really aren't responsible to know the answer. You also aren't responsible to memorize the entire manuals but to be "familiar" with them. Look at the ACS language.
As for the gyro question. Ask him "what do you mean, mechanical or solid state?" (A little homage to Monty Python)
throwaway5757_@reddit
Those two things alone shouldn’t warrant a fail. I imagine you are weak or answering incorrectly in other areas as well, and that was the “straw that broke the camels back” so to speak.
LibrarianUsed4126@reddit
Please read my article I just put out there titled, “FAA CheckRides-Snake Eyes-You Lose.” In it I address that we expect too much from our young pilots, and are way too happy to destroy them on such minor details! Article can be downloaded at AviatorsMarket.com. Just search Riter and then download under documents. You can also watch on YouTube at: Capt.Robert”ThatGuy”Riter. Don’t get discouraged. This is a tough field to be in, and you will be beaten up repeatedly! God Bless! Keep Flying Speed! Captain Robert “That Guy” Riter
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Stuff like this makes me glad I did 61. Holding someone back based on those two misses in a first stage check seems wild to me.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
We’re only getting OPs side of the story. Every CFI knows students “forget” to mention a few important details of why they failed something
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Yup, that's why I said the "unless" bit.
SadOutlandishness189@reddit
Strict 141 stage checks as much as i hated them they make the actual oral portion of the checkride smooth as hell
GulfstreamsHoe@reddit
Mine was the opposite… my stage check was smooth making me think I was ready for checkride but when checkride came around, oral portion alone was 4.5 hours long
DaWendys4for4@reddit
Exactly. When I am being asked about frontolysis and frotogenesis on my commercial stage, the half assed checkride weather section was easy as pie
PilotBro25@reddit
Are those legitimately the only reason you failed each time? I find it hard to believe they failed you just off 1 question. Usually it’s repeatedly getting things wrong.
Arkadelt@reddit
That's probably just the question the examiner decided to call it a day on after multiple missed questions
jaylw314@reddit
The fact that OP posted this complaint to Reddit supports your speculation.
Fit-Bedroom6590@reddit
If you are posting here looking for validation I would say likely yes.
Guap-Zero@reddit
Look, it's rather simple... if you can't explain the location of where the metal was fabricated to build your plane, to include the city, state, longitude, and latitude, then you have no business operating the pitot heat, much less flying the plane...
...Let me guess... you have no idea what the name of the guy is who put it together either...hmph...
FredTheDev@reddit
His name is Jim. He has a wife and two kids. And I failed because I don’t know their names.
FlyElias@reddit
Part 141 is soul sucking.
unsuspicious_raven@reddit
Ya that's kinda how it is. I'm also in a 141 about done with instrument, and yeah there's just some stage checkers that will find something to fail you on no matter how prepared you are. Just keep at it and hope for someone else for your retest lol
hanjaseightfive@reddit
Tell this moron (the examiner) that the instrument check is a practical test for a rating, not pop-quiz stump the chump shit for the CFII.
PastEstablishment646@reddit
What plane are you flying? What does your TCO & lesson plan say to know? It’s not fun failing , however, make sure you’re studying the right material
Also, book mark every source you should be learning. I’m assuming your stage checks allow you to reference faa documents? Well, when you’re stumped, you have a source to reference. You’ll pass it no problem , only a matter of time. Keep working on it
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
I fly PA-28-181, but the lesson plan just says general idea of the topic, “instruments how they work and failures” etc. I always learn and make sure I don’t fail twice on the same thing. They also don’t like you using any reference and want you to have it already in memory which is fine by me.
PastEstablishment646@reddit
Yeah hard to give suggestions, not sure how detailed your Tco/lesson plan is or if it gives references to study, but may not be a bad idea to cross reference your line items with the equipment in your poh, get familiar with it and then just tab your documents. If it’s frowned upon looking things up, scratch that advice. Kiss some ass bring some cookies or coffee… of bring cookies & milk and they maybe be eager to finish your exam to find a bathroom 😆 best of luck, wish I could be of more help. Keep trucking on
PILOT9000@reddit
It’ll get better. When you get to the professional level you don’t get asked stupid shit like this.
PiperDriver1977@reddit
Well, see it in a different way. What if they let you go for not knowing those BS questions and you end up basting the checkride. Who are you going to blame then?
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
There’s a different way to do that. For example on the couple things I got wrong of could’ve been done in a debrief and I could be asked about it again in stage 2 or 3 or even EOC that’s why I’m stressing it on stage 1
Pale_Lifeguard_7689@reddit
I can understand the pitot heat one, but that is also not THAT big of a deal and i don't believe you should've been failed on that. Yes it was wrong to answer "it has a coil" to a question of how it works, but that's a small thing and knowing that isn't a make or break. The DME thing is bullshit, they just wanted to find a reason to fail you.
Prize-Competition996@reddit
141 Instructor here: If you have one, go to your check standards manager and ask if that was acceptable. Not every in house 141 check IP is going to be fair, always go to their boss and ask for a second opinion. I remember a few instances at my 141 where some check ride outcomes are changed due to stupid questions. If you weren't taught the material expected on the stage check then the standards manager needs to talk to your IP.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
You will never need to know any of that for any reason ever. That said, it's their program. If they require you to know it, they require you to know it. What 141 is it? There are those that I know that are notorious milkers.
Field_Sweeper@reddit
Is this for real? You even mentioned things you got wrong. And a mistake is a mistake. Imagine if you mistakenly put the landing gear up just before touching down.
Oddball_one@reddit
As a CFI in a 141 program let me be the first to say I'm sorry. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Just remember the majority of the CFI cadre at your 141 school doesn't know much, doesn't care about you, and is just looking to book hours. More often than not the 141 CFI only know the same memorized mnemonics and boilerplate lesson bullet points that were passed on to them. The expectation is not understanding and application, it's rote knowledge because the examiners do not know how to do a real evaluation. Wash, rinse, repeat.
TLDR find the person with all the lesson plans that the CFIs use internally and memorize them.
AngryAtNumbers@reddit
Bro, at my 141 we had a guy that would do these kinda fails on the EOC. Literally everyone got failed by him at some point over complete BS. I talked to the guy and was like "this is all bs, 'doing maneuvers your way' isn't the ACS standard. My checkride is on ACS standards, not whatever dumb way you want me to do it." Basically he'd tell you a perfectly fine manuver was being "done wrong" because it wasn't his specific technique. I instantly showed him his own technique too with no practice, after he told me what he wanted to see ONCE. I had to talk to the Cheif flight instructor and while i was till in that meeting, this guy RETROACTIVELY passed my EOC.
Some instructors, shouldn't be put in a position to evaluate anyone because their head is up their own ass so much they can smell their own farts before they hear em.
Lanky_Grapefruit671@reddit
I wouldn't call them BS questions or technicalities. You got it wrong. Plain and simple.
Would I of held you back over one question? No. But they did. Learn what you got wrong and why it was wrong and move forward.
Urrolnis@reddit
Yeah, no, if your answer to "how is pilot heat powered" is "there's a coil" (ie electric) and the ExAmInEr wants the answer of something about resistance and fails you for it..
That examiner is getting their tires slashed.
Twarrior913@reddit
I had a check instructor that I generally liked ask a student how a IRS unit worked. My student basically said it’s a solid state electrical unit that gives pitch, roll, and yaw data and is powered by the XYZ avionic’s bus (to me, a very solid answer for a PPL holder). He wanted “more,” and my student remembered how I explained a general, 3 axis rising laser gyroscope system, and explained how it worked (detecting frequency changes of light/lasers, the mirror positioning, etc). The check airman said “lasers and mirrors? Yeah, you are just making stuff up, lol.”
He ultimately wanted my student to know what the exact name of the Line Replaceable Unit that had the IRS, you know, something a non Avionic’s rated A&P could realistically access, let alone need to know. I went back and asked him if he knew how a IRS worked, he had no clue, so I linked him a few videos on how indeed “lasers and mirrors” were foundationally how that IRS worked.
Some check instructors/examiners really just want to flex their useless knowledge and can’t help themselves.
Urrolnis@reddit
I fly an airplane with IRSs and have no damn clue how it works.
These CFIs weren't bullied enough as kids.
Grand-Amphibian-3887@reddit
Or switch to a 61 school where they would have used that opportunity to teach you what they think you need to move on. Many FAA inspectors are this way they hunt around until they find something unimportant that they have decided the universe revolves around, and only he knows what it is. You can't move past it until the holy one graces you with his expounding knowledge.
I was doing my 1st 121 jet observation with an inspector out of Detroit. He never flew the DC9 and had no idea about its systems or our callouts, ck lists, and procedures. He said i didn't give my fo (ck Airman) a chance to repack the name of the ck list before he started his flow. I said he doesn't say the name until after the flow is complete, then picks up the ck list, says the name, and reads the ck list. He said, "How do you know he did the right ck list? I said I saw the switch's he moved, and they were all correct for the appropriate ck list, the one I asked for. I had a pretty good idea how the flow went after 3.5 yrs in the right seat! He then moved on to the collars on unused circuit breakers where to loose in his mind. He said someone could push them in. I said what imbecile would try to pwr up a system that was collared. My FO (ck Airman) realized before I was willing to that this clown wasn't going to quit until we gave him something. He said, "How about we talk to maintenance about it?" He said good enough, nice job and left.
MostNinja2951@reddit
How did OP get them wrong? The DME question is correct for the most common case, and failing to provide multiple layers of explanation on how gyros work isn't an error.
HailChanka69@reddit
Yea especially the details behind how the pitot heat works. Like even through commercial all I had to know was its electrical
__joel_t@reddit
This is a bullshit fail, full stop. The gyroscope acting that way is exactly what the physical law of conservation of momentum says it should -- in the absence of an external torque applied to the gyroscope, its angular momentum won't be changed. This is just a fancy physics way of saying the gyro will keep pointing the same direction as the plane turns around it.
If you failed because you didn't know the fancy physics terms but still understood the concept, that's bullshit. And if you failed because you don't have a physics degree and so can't explain why angular momentum is conserved, that's also bullshit.
Heel-Judder@reddit
Here's the thing...orals aren't usually failed based on one thing. They're failed based on a culmination of things. Those questions sound a little nit-picky, but I suspect they're the straw that broke the camel's back.
Why? Because you immediately refused to own up to your failures, pointing the finger towards "BS questions or a technicality."
I think you need to have a long hard look in the mirror.
Tiny-Definition8160@reddit (OP)
I own up to my mistakes and I made mistakes in private stages and I learn from them. But some questions just have no reason to be a failure Sure I can have them in the debrief and have explained what I got wrong but by no means should it be a reason to redo a stage.
__joel_t@reddit
Honest question: were you given any indication that you needed to know these things to that level of detail? If so, that is sort of on you. But otherwise, it seems bullshit.
HailChanka69@reddit
Look at the notes for your Stage Check. I’m in 141 and we always get notes over even the little things we could improve on. It may feel like it was just those 2 things but there might have been more factors at play
Heel-Judder@reddit
There you go again, not owning up to your failures and lack of required knowledge.
MostNinja2951@reddit
u/Tiny-Definition8160 ignore this advice. Those questions are ridiculously nitpicky and the goal was to find a technicality to fail you on, not to help you learn. You aren't obligated to "own up to your failures" when someone decides to make you fail.
FreeNow13@reddit
I'm also in the middle of instrument at a 141 and I've never been asked questions that specific on a stage check. The oral parts of my stage check have been pretty general the whole time, they've never gotten into the nitty gritty like that.
Urrolnis@reddit
Imagine a DPE who isn't even incentivized to fail you, but is a pimply 25 year old who thinks they're a big dawg because they're an examiner in Cessnas.
That's how you get questions like that.
halfmilebase@reddit
They want your extra money brah
VlRTUALRlOT@reddit
I did 141 for my ppl and when I failed or wasn't able to explain enough in depth about something particular, I'd just come back next time and we would only cover those specific areas I needed more work in. Instructor would feel confident in my knowledge afterwards and complete the stage check.
Same with maneuvers. Would just come back and complete whatever I was out of standard on the first time.
hawker1172@reddit
If there’s nothing more to the story then definitely a rip off. This is why I advocate for part 61. Now you have subjective failed stage checks to report on legacy airline apps.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
141 stage checks can be weird like that. Like for my commercial oral I was asked the question “describe the c172s electrical system” like that is such a broad question and you need a gouge sometimes for stuff like that. The correct answer was a 28v electrical system with a 24v 60 amp alternator. 6 busses. For your questions about the pitot heat, the coil which creates resistance and thus heats the probe with electrical power is correct, I don’t see how that would be wrong. For the dme range I would have added something about slant range perhaps but otherwise correct.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m currently in a 141 and doing instrument. On my stage 1 oral I failed twice due to bs questions or a technicality. I want to get a second opinion and know if I deserve the failure or are they being too harsh. One question was how does pitot heat work? I answer saying there’s a coil. He wanted more and told me there’s a coil being heated by resistance and powered electrically. 2nd one was the technicality. I explained how a dme works but I mistakenly said the reply pulse is to the VOR instead of ground station. I’m unable to move forward and it’s holding me back. I would understand if this happened in a stage 3 or EOC but stage 1 cmon.
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