RAF Tornado flies with Concorde. Is this really true?
Posted by jimmyflyer@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 100 comments

Posted by jimmyflyer@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 100 comments
Hot_Net_4845@reddit
Yes. Concorde photographer Adrian Meredith was sat in the back seat of ZD902. There was a BBC photographer onboard Concorde, who took these photos of the Tonka, seen in this video
pjakma@reddit
Ooh, thanks for that reply. I'd been meaning to buy that book - done!
Grytr1000@reddit
TIL. That’s some really deep nerdy stuff going on in that video. Respect.
FlySilently@reddit
Unexpected cute dog!
ItsRebus@reddit
I need sleep. I was looking at this wondering where the RAF Tornado was in the pic.
bbcgn@reddit
Found this article on the photo that has some details on it:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-behind-the-only-known-photo-of-concorde-flying-at-mach-2/amp/
Notchersfireroad@reddit
That was a cool read.
ciaomain@reddit
I liked the part where it said the Concorde could outrun a nuclear blast.
I sense a Michael Bay movie...
ScroungingMonkey@reddit
Well, shockwaves travel at the speed of sound, so that's not actually as impressive as it seems. Any supersonic aircraft can outrun any blast wave, provided that the blast wave starts out behind it.
Plus, nuclear bombs also emit radiation, which travels at the speed of light. If you actually set off a nuke directly behind a Concorde in flight, the back of the plane would be melted by the flash before it had a chance to try outrunning the blast wave.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Except it's more or less painted anti flash white, so it would probably be fine.
MrTourette@reddit
I’m going to question the ‘modern nukes are quite small’ statement a tad here, I would posit they are in fact armageddon levels of magnitude larger than they ever were.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Nah, Tsar Bomba was 50MT, with an easy redesign to 100MT, the B41 was 25MT (retired 1976), the B53 at 9MT was retired in 2011, and the spiciest now is the 1.2MT B86.
But gravity bombs are so so, and the most common one is 400kT.
It's well recognised that more low yield bombs are far more destructive than fewer high yield bombs, because less energy is wasted being thrown into the atmosphere/lost to the inverse square law.
A 400kT nuke produces third degree burns at around 25,000ft radius, and a 1.2MT nuke a radius of 39,000ft.
Neither of those would be guaranteed to cause the fuselage of Concorde to fail from thermal overload.
pjakma@reddit
Bear in that Tsar Bomba was air dropped by a subsonic Tu-95. There were some concerns about whether it would survive, but it did. So, Concorde would too (assuming it starts around the same place and direction as the drop ship).
discombobulated38x@reddit
Not really.
There's two hazards - the thermal radiation pulse and the shockwave.
Concorde is roughly twice as fast as the TU95, so the thermal pulse will have a quarter of the power, and it's a white painted aircraft so it will likely be fine.
And it out flies the shockwave that caused the TU95 to drop 3000ft in a matter of seconds.
CptSandbag73@reddit
Ha, bear. Pun intended?
pjakma@reddit
I think it was a subconscious pun. ;)
CptSandbag73@reddit
The bear is always in mind.
ScroungingMonkey@reddit
No, that statement is correct. Modern nukes are mostly in the low hundreds of kiloton range. There are a few in the low megaton range, but the workhorses of every modern nuclear power's arsenal are generally around 100-300 kilotons. In the early era of thermonuclear weapons the US and USSR both made bombs with yields in the tens of megaton range, but nowadays the focus is on more of a "nuclear shotgun" approach: missiles carry multiple independent reentry vehicles, each with a smaller and lighter warhead.
MrTourette@reddit
I dunno, I just finished Nuclear War by Annie Jacobson and that’s the what if story of a fictional modern nuclear exchange. Wouldn’t call the results small.
ScroungingMonkey@reddit
I mean, size is relative. 100 kilotons is still a really big boom. But it's only five times Hiroshima, and back in the 50's the US and USSR were testing weapons that were 1000 times bigger than Hiroshima.
_aware@reddit
But ok the point is that the individual warhead's yield has gotten smaller. Higher yield warheads are just worth the bulk when modern delivery vehicles can deliver lower yield warheads onto the target more accurately.
BigmacSasquatch@reddit
The current largest gravity bomb in the US arsenal is the B83, which has a top yield of 1.2 megatons. Google says it’s being retired this year, which will leave the W88 (the warhead in our ballistic missiles) and its 475 kiloton yield the largest.
ImReverse_Giraffe@reddit
But Castle Bravo was 15 MT. Tsar Bomba was 50 MT.
BigmacSasquatch@reddit
“Current largest”.
Castle Bravo was 71 years ago. Nuclear nonproliferation and drawdowns have come a long way, and there aren’t any warheads in existence larger than the ones I listed.
Andoverian@reddit
Your instinct to question that isn't wrong since weapons do tend to get bigger over time, and modern nukes are still a couple orders of magnitude larger than the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But in this case nukes have actually gotten smaller than at their peak in the 60's or so.
It's not that we couldn't build bigger ones if we wanted to, just that there's really no point. Cold War nukes needed to be bigger because the delivery systems (early ICBMs) were only accurate to within a few kilometers. If your bomb might miss a hardened target by 5 kilometers, then it needs to be big enough to utterly destroy everything in a 5 kilometer radius. That means a yield of several megatons, maybe even bigger. The biggest one ever detonated had a yield of 50 megatons, and even that was deliberately scaled back from its theoretical potential of 100 megatons.
But modern missiles are much more accurate - probably within 100 meters or less. Even a "modest" yield of 1 megaton is more than enough to take out anything at that radius. And smaller bombs are cheaper, more efficient (with big yields a lot of the destructive power is wasted by going up into the atmosphere or even space instead of out), and easier to handle and deliver.
ScroungingMonkey@reddit
In my mind, the whole premise of the question ("can a Concorde outrun a nuclear blast?") assumes that someone has decided to airburst a nuke a short distance behind the Concorde in mid-flight. It makes no sense to ask if it can outrun a nuke on the surface, since that's about 11-12 miles away anyway.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Well then the question is silly because
1) the closing velocity of shrapnel from a stationary air to air warhead detonation behind Concorde at cruise speed is 1.5km/s, it ain't outrunning that
2) the fireball of a nuke forms at millions of miles per hour, so it clearly can't outrun that, or the prompt radiation
3) Now we're just selecting an arbitrary distance that a weapon doesn't affect Concorde from so that we can say it outruns X effect but not Y, which is utterly stupid, and can be applied to any weapon.
The overpressure shockwave overtaking literally every nuclear bomber on the planet other than the B1b (which isn't nuclear rated any more) is a key design consideration for the bomber, but it isn't something Concorde needs to worry about. Which is true.
dinkleberrysurprise@reddit
Wow you’ve orgabically figured out anti-flash paint 70 years or so late
the_real_hugepanic@reddit
U would assume that the radiation melting the airframe is the slightest problem.
The shockwave would be, if it reaches the aircraft. The radiation might hurt/blind the pilots. The radiation might injure/kill all passenger and pilots depending on the distance to the explosion center. The airframe will suck a lot of this up...
ScroungingMonkey@reddit
Well, the point is that, if the aircraft survives the radiation with its ability to keep flying intact, then it will outrun the shockwave, because the shockwave travels at the speed of sound and this is a supersonic aircraft. If the plane survives the initial flash with its airframe, engines, and flight control surfaces intact, then the shockwave will never reach it. But if the flash damages critical structures at the rear of the plane, then the aircraft would lose control and the shockwave would obliterate it.
As far the the pilots getting blinded is concerned, that's not an immediate problem. In the first few seconds after the blast, all they have to do is keep flying in a straight line. They don't even need to disengage the autopilot. Their blindness only becomes a problem later when they need to figure out how to land.
FlexVector@reddit
Whaaaat I’ve donnnnne
FilePuzzleheaded920@reddit
A new concept, flying fast to escape the blast but too fast that they are also flying towards it. How do they escape this seemingly impossible task…
HiFiGuy197@reddit
Yeah, but in what neutral country are they gonna land?
bbcgn@reddit
Thank you.
jimmyflyer@reddit (OP)
Wow what a story! Would’ve been a lucky day to fly on the Concorde witnessing that
bbcgn@reddit
Yeah, makes you wonder if someone took a picture of the Tornado from the Concorde as well.😂
dlovegro@reddit
Yes, see it here
QuestionDue7822@reddit
Cell phones with handbag battery packs, wet film camera years.
Ok-Individual-8658@reddit
L
...h
Hh
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Silent-Hornet-8606@reddit
Concorde was offered as a target to NATO interceptors in 1985.
The only aircraft that was able to successfully intercept was the renowned English Electric Lightning, XR749.
This particular aircraft was known to have a slightly higher performance than other Lightnings.
The intercept was carried out from the stern, and XR749 over took Concorde at Mach 2.3.
Pretty extraordinary, as the F-15's and F-104s all failed to intercept.
Lysol3435@reddit
I just looked up the F15. It’s specced at a top speed of Mach 2.5. Maybe it’s just the modern variant, though?
shit-shit-shit-shit-@reddit
Pretty sure I read somewhere the Lightning was able to intercept a U-2 at its ceiling
reelmonkey@reddit
I once worked in a house of a guy that use to fly lightnings. In his office he had a lot of models/ pictures and certificates and stuff from his time in the RAF. I didn't get a lot of time to chat but he said they were amazing aircraft to fly.
Silent-Hornet-8606@reddit
Correct, several successful interceptions of the U-2 were made at or near its service ceiling by Lightnings.
Mr06506@reddit
That must have been a shock to the U2 pilots in their fancy space suits.
AshleyAshes1984@reddit
U2 Pilot: "Up in the sky in my U2... Almost an Astronaut."
Lightning Pilot: "Tally ho!"
U2 Pilot: "WHAT THE FUCK???"
HairlessChest@reddit
thats insane.
JimBridger_@reddit
TBF the F-15 or F-104 weren't interceptors. The F-104 was more of a lawn dart.
Silent-Hornet-8606@reddit
The F-104 was designed primarily as an interceptor.... Kelly Johnson specifically designed it to maximize time to climb and altitude performance.
It could get up there and do so very quickly, it just couldnt turn! But that's not needed for Bomber intercepts.
rfm92@reddit
How come one specific airframe was faster than others of the same model?
Train_nut@reddit
According to this - https://www.lightningassociation.co.uk/lightning-vs-concorde
They had spend all night polishing it, to get a bit of extra speed
NudesyourDMme@reddit
I’m gonna be up all night polishing now too. Love it!
mkosmo@reddit
Yes, but they make it sound like that's a heavy lift. The Tornado is a fast interceptor, designed to go that fast. It just, like everything else that can do it (F-14B, Mig-25, etc), does it at the rate of a community of large dinosaurs every ssecond.
Schnitzelschlag@reddit
Actually it was pretty much blowing all its fuel load to keep up with her.
griffin540@reddit
And burning out it's engines
The Tornado was never designed as an interceptor, it was low level/strike. The F2/3 was a slightly modified stopgap before the typhoon entered service. I think it had slightly hot rodded versions of the RB199s optimised for higher altitude and the fuselage was extended slightly so they could fit 4 skyflash missiles semi recessed underneath
Maro1947@reddit
It wasn't a stopgap - it served for decades and was specially designed with different engines than the IDS variant
griffin540@reddit
Stop gap was maybe the wrong wording, but yes it's a hot rodded Tornado that's been stretched for the longer missiles
Maro1947@reddit
Not just the missiles. Aerodynamic changes as well
griffin540@reddit
Pointier too then
just_anotherReddit@reddit
I’m assuming drop tanks were used prior to full afterburner?
Schnitzelschlag@reddit
Quite possibly?
Rolls-RoyceGriffon@reddit
The ADV is the interceptor variant. It was designed for interdiction and fast, low level attacks. The ADV came later
polenstein@reddit
I used to sit next to the engineer quite often on Concorde and they loved to talk about how most fighter aircraft could only keep up with us for a few minutes at a time.
pjakma@reddit
Nice. Used to live beside Prestwick airport in the late 80s. Concorde would go there regularly (every year? I don't remember) for training. What a bird. Full reheat touch-and-gos, great noise! :) Might have seen you!
Kundera42@reddit
Thats quite a flex right there :) I am sure it must have been great to be able to fly Concorde, let along sit on the flight deck. I recently finished Mike Bannister's amazing Concorde book and I am super intrigued by the technology, culture and even politics around this beauty.
Cornishlee@reddit
It’d be cool if a photo from the Concorde of the Tornado existed.
PC-12@reddit
It happened!
Check out this comment in the thread from u/Hot_Net_4845
Pixel91@reddit
It does. But it's not all that spectacular. A closeup of a Tornado F2 against the sky, can't tell anything is special about it without knowing the context.
Grizzly2525@reddit
RAAAAH TORNADO MENTIONED!!!!
kayl_breinhar@reddit
I think the RAF and USAF ran simulated intercepts of Concorde semi-regularly because it gave them a good stand-in for bombers like the Backfire and Blinder during their dashes. They wouldn't form up like this Tornado did, they'd just intercept and ascertain if they'd have gotten a kill or if they'd have missed.
The USAF usually kept a detachment of F-15s at Reykjavik in Iceland and definitely at Lakenheath in the UK.
dinkleberrysurprise@reddit
If you aren’t familiar with Iceland’s strategic role in a potential 1980s WW3 scenario, there’s a certain Tom Clancy novel I highly recommend…
Maro1947@reddit
Buns Nakamura check!
dinkleberrysurprise@reddit
Don’t forget to paint that fifth star
kayl_breinhar@reddit
I actually wore through a paperback copy of RSR in making it one of my "Number 2" bathroom books.
So yeah, I've heard of it. >.>
Lean-II-Machine@reddit
Which novel is it?
1assekongo@reddit
Red storm rising
Taptrick@reddit
Based on the fact this photo gets reposted here every few months I would say that yes, it’s true.
PotentialMidnight325@reddit
Oh has I been four days already? Because normally this is the frequency this gets reposted at.
graspedbythehusk@reddit
Well I’ve seen this same post but the story was that 2 Concordes rendezvoused to take this picture, the only time that’s ever happened blah blah.
So I don’t know frankly.
Pixel91@reddit
Then that post was bullshit.
This is a well-documented occurrence. It was a Tornado F2.
graspedbythehusk@reddit
I wasn’t stating a dearly held belief, just what I have seen previously. But you know, downvote to oblivion Reddit.
griffin540@reddit
And the Tornado needed both engines replaced afterwards from what I've been told
Pixel91@reddit
Why would that be the case? It's designed to go that fast. Just can't do it for long because of the fuel burn.
griffin540@reddit
It would have had to do Mach 2.2 for longer than the 4 minutes it was alongside to catch up with Concorde already doing Mach 2. That's a lot of time on full reheat. Usually the only time you'd be doing that is in an actual QRA emergency intercept
The Tornado isn't the most aerodynamic of things so the engines would have had to be working pretty damn hard to keep it at Mach 2.2
It could well have been a safety thing, you wouldn't want to be the next guy needing to use it in an emergency intercept only to find out the engines fail due to being pushed too hard for a photo op
That said I'm only passing on info I got from my dad who was a maintainer in the RAF at the time, so it could have had the usual Chinese whispers added to it by the time it got to him
Juuba@reddit
In 1973 concorde chased the eclipse:
https://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/concorde/ChaseTheSun.html
Chen7982@reddit
Filmed from a Canberra
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
Wild that air travel hasn't progressed in decades given that this work of art existed. I wonder, as a 37 year old, if I'll ever witness significant gains in air travel times.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
If your only metric is speed than sure.
If your metric is passenger numbers, fuel efficiency... Safety! Then nah we progressed heaps.
Progress is not defined by one metric..
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
I'm not trying to be sarcastic when I say this, honestly. But I thought, being that speed was the topic of discussion, I thought my comment might be more apparent. But genuinely, I was wrong. I did, however, specifically mean speed. I would absolutely agree that many many many other areas have become safer and/or more efficient.
chunkymonk3y@reddit
Don’t forget that efficiency also leads to increased viability for new direct point-to-point routes that have never existed before such as Aer Lingus’ Dublin>Nashville route set to open in a couple weeks. The fact that such routes are becoming viable offers a different but still valuable convenience to customers than what was offered through Concorde’s speed.
mkosmo@reddit
Air travel has progressed quite a bit. Just not in terms of supersonic everything... because that's not quite as simple as you may expect. Turns out it's so inefficient that the progression was to walk away from it for now and focus on high-efficiency high-bypass in the subsonic realm, improving pax density, efficiency, and safety.
budd1e_lee@reddit
I wouldn't call passenger density progress.
Maximus560@reddit
It is if you look in terms of economic efficiency. Thanks, Jack Welch!
En4cr@reddit
If Boom Supersonic can jump the massive hurdle of making the Symphony engine a reality for Overture and turn it into a profitable business model than your should be covered!
Acoustic_Rob@reddit
That’s a load-bearing “if,” though.
En4cr@reddit
No doubt, but I like to remain hopeful in this case. If I can get anywhere on the globe at about half the time for the cost of a business class ticket I'm definitely interested.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
I have to try real hard not to be a miserable cynic but I think with Boom its warranted.
Way too many ifs.
Everything is brand new, super advanced.
And it will be cheap....
bp4850@reddit
It happened, but the Concorde was not at Mach 2 when the photo was taken
MunitionGuyMike@reddit
Nah it’s AI
xlr8_87@reddit
Yes