The federations greatest enemy, low birth rate?
Posted by Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 81 comments
riker and troi: 1 child. 2 crushers and picard: 2 kids. worf and 2 partners: 1 kid. data: no kids. Miles and keiko: 2 kids. ro: no kids. wesley and the traveller: 0 kids , Jeremy asters parets: 1kid
shoopstoop25@reddit
Nah, it's a sampling error. Those are examples from people in the military. The civilian population is likely far more fertile.
citybadger@reddit
Without resource restrictions, and very high standard of health care, many families today might choose to have more children.
dangerousquid@reddit
Some might, but in general there is a very well-established trend that increased wealth and standards of living (and education) lead directly to lower birth rates. All available data from the real world suggests that if you put real people in a ST-like society, the birthrate would likely plummet to far below the replacement rate.
Miserly_Bastard@reddit
That's true in general, however the data also shows that the trend reverses within the subset of a population that achieves very-high net worth.
A post-scarcity society probably does not have any population problems to speak of, whatsoever.
dangerousquid@reddit
What date is that? Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but everything that I have ever seen shows a tend of more wealth = lower birth rate. Do you have a source for this?
Miserly_Bastard@reddit
I had a source when I was in college. That was a while back. The course was Economics of Development. Sorry.
Sasquatch1729@reddit
Also because work is optional in the Trek universe, you can take the time to properly raise children.
Sex_E_Searcher@reddit
And to make them.
doctordoctorpuss@reddit
And fertility treatments would likely be much, much better, and the cost factor doesn’t matter (that one also probably raises adoption rates)
BorgCow@reddit
Oh so it’s a mirror universe episode
Acceptingoptimist@reddit
Exactly. That's not Federation numbers it's Starfleet Officer numbers. They've committed their lives to Starfleet. They joke about the lack of romance on Lower Decks.
Absentmindedgenius@reddit
You're not counting all those Irish stereotype colonists in that one episode.
BorgCow@reddit
Isn’t Picard already like 60 at the start of TNG? Massively increased life expectancy would mitigate this issue, no?
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
'low birth rate' stuff, in real life anyway, is a bullshit conspiracy theory. \~800,000 years ago we had a population bottleneck of \~1200 breeding humans. Since then, low birth rate has presented precisely 0 risk or danger to humanity. Overpopulation is more damaging.
dangerousquid@reddit
No serious people are worried about extinction due to low birth rates.
Many serious people (economists and politicians) are worried about how to deal with a birth rate that is below the replacement rate, because all of our economic systems are based on the premise that a relatively large number of younger people will support a relatively small number of older people. If you reverse the demographics (so that a smaller number of younger people are trying to support a larger number of older people), it can lead to very real problems that will need to be addressed somehow. That's not a conspiracy theory, it's just an economic reality.
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
Funny to call economists and politicians serious! The replacement rate is mitigated (not everywhere) by immigration, and the issue that gets lost when birth rates comes into view is that of climate change. It's no surprise that many people of my generation and younger are actively choosing not to have children, because to do so would be condemning them to a shorter lifespan and worse living conditions than our own.
Most of what is called 'economic reality' is just concensus by capitalist economists. I have never heard a left wing economist discuss replacement rates as if it's a reality to be concerned about. It's mostly deployed as a culture war issue. Those economists never seem very concerned with the brain drain effect that leads to the young in eastern europe emigrating.
dangerousquid@reddit
I'm honestly not sure what your point is here. Sure, obviously you can mitigate it with immigration, if you have sufficient immigration. Many places don't have sufficient immigration, and thus the declining population leads to economic problems. It may be unsurprising that people don't want to have children, but our lack of surprise does not mitigate the issues it causes; those issues can only realistically be mitigated by economic policy changes. Again, none of that is a conspiracy theory.
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
I don't doubt that there are places suffering from an ageing population, or expect to soon. My points are that:
This is mostly not a problem in the global north, with an exception (possibly more) of Japan
That it's a relatively small problem compared to the other ill effects of capitalism
That this plugs well into manufactured cultural concerns raised by the likes of Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro.
There may be some good work done by economists on this, and a need for economic policy to reflect the legitimate concerns, but in general the problem is discussed a lot in places that aren't going to suffer this problem.
Here's a good treatment of the issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCeEPN_WI-U
dangerousquid@reddit
I believe you that stupid people say stupid things about the topic, but that doesn't mean that the topic is "a bullshit conspiracy theory."
And China, and Korea, and Thailand...
Ok. But the fact that a problem is relatively small compared to the other ill effects of capitalism, does not mean that the problem is an bullshit conspiracy theory.
I have no idea who those people are, but again, the fact that stupid people say stupid things about the topic doesn't mean that the topic is "a bullshit conspiracy theory."
And it also gets discussed a lot in the places that actually are suffering this problem.
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
I'm not used to other redditors having a fine eye for detail and actually reading my words rather than making assumptions on my meaning - you've avoided several opportunities to misunderstand me where most others would!
Perhaps I should rephrase. To restate it, I don't doubt that a low birth rate combined with longer life expectancy can cause problems, and that these problems are making themselves felt. The part that's a bullshit conspiracy theory is where that plugs into the manufactured culture concerns. The part where some academics know that their output will be misunderstood (yes yes, impossible to prove, so just an opinion). This is something I believe a lot of mainstream economists do - arguing in bad faith, knowing that to counter leftist ideas doesn't require a solid evidence base nor good logic, only to gain traction amongst the handmaidens of capitalism.
Jordan Peterson is a hack psychology professor in canada that has been at the forefront of the Trans Panic of the last \~10 years and thinks of himself as a cultural historian and philosopher, but is in fact peddling toxic masculinity.
Ben Shapiro is an alt-right media commentator who likes to present himself as very smart but is remarkably stupid. He is perhaps best known for admitting he never gets his wife's pussy wet, in response to a pop song with related lyrics, and for asking why people who live in houses at risk of coastal erosion don't just sell up and move.
dangerousquid@reddit
This all sounds very US-centric (no offense). I'm sorry that you have people like that; it sounds exhausting.
In my home country (Italy) we have been watching our population growth rate slowly tip further into the negative for several years now, so it's a more serious topic.
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
It is indeed US-centric - this is where such discussions have taken on a distinctly cultural, racist-coded stance.
No offence taken - I'm british. Mio padre e venuto da firenze i parlo un po, pero no ci sono stato da forse dieci anni.
According to this, your population growth tipped into the negative in 2020, with an average yearly change since then of under 0.3%. Over that same time period, the median age has gone up by 1.8 years, which seems rapid, with forecasts for that to go up another 4.7 years between now and 2050, which seems less rapid. Do these stats seem correct to you?
dangerousquid@reddit
That sounds about right, but I don't actually know the specific numbers off hand.
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
I'd suggest that if those numbers are accurate, then it's going to be hard for such changes to cause significant economic concerns before Meloni and climate change wreck your country.
dangerousquid@reddit
I'm hoping that the increased need for immigration will force Meloni and the like out.
Scrofuloid@reddit
The risk isn't extinction; the risk is having a society with too many old people supported by a small working population, who might not be incentivized to take care of the elderly. It's probably not so much of a concern in a technologically advanced sci fi society, but it very much is a problem in the real world.
MilesTegTechRepair@reddit
The way people talk about it implies they consider it an extinction risk, if not to humanity, to 'western european' (ie white) culture.
Desperate-Fan-3671@reddit
Could WWIII and the radiation damage have been passed down through dna? Effecting childbirth?
kkkan2020@reddit
Transporter clones.
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
riker murdered his fully grown adult clone why did he let his transporter clone live?
Due_Example1096@reddit
I think they were going with that clone hadn't been activated yet so it didn't have any higher brain functions so wasn't really a person yet. Riker basically aborted his clone.
dangerousquid@reddit
You know that when that sort of thing happens in the mirror universe, the captian just hands each one a knife and tells them to "work it out amongst themselves".
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
sure looked like a fully grown adult who was just in stasis/sedated. Tom riker de kept his door locked
Due_Example1096@reddit
Lol yeah he probably did. IDK about the clone. They left it ambiguous and like I said I just think that's what they were going for.
OliverStrife@reddit
He did not murder Thomas Riker what are you even talking about? He even comes back in DS9
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
reread the comment
MidoriMidnight@reddit
Excuse you, Data had a child, Lal.
Riker and Troi also have a deceased child.
sir_jamez@reddit
Tribbles? 2^N kids
Lemina@reddit
Spoilers for Picard:S1 : >!Data has a whole planet of children! !<
ActorMonkey@reddit
This is Lal erasure and I won’t stand for it.
Kmjada@reddit
Damn straight. I am plugging in that part of beta canon and no one can stop me.
BuvantduPotatoSpirit@reddit
My understanding is that although we only saw three, Janeway and Paris would've had several hundred kids.
And Sarek has hundreds of secret kids, each more secret than the last.
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
I don't want to live a world where either paris nor janeway had kids
ShiroHachiRoku@reddit
Is it just Picard who had a sibling?
BuvantduPotatoSpirit@reddit
Data has at least two.
Worf has a brother and a step brother.
Wesley has a brother.
Riker is his own brother.
Troi had a sister.
Molly eventually gets a brother.
Tasha has a sister.
Seaberry3656@reddit
Riker and Troi: 1 living*
cornholio8675@reddit
I love that you shipped Wesley and the Traveler.
Its a shame their love bore no fruit.
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
lol well he went off to explore space and time with him
cornholio8675@reddit
And that's not all.... Hey-O
EternalLifeguard@reddit
Ohh myyyy
Tricky_Peace@reddit
Not only are they creating new colonies they’re also bringing new species into the Federation. Population expansion isn’t an issue for the Federation
MinorThreat89@reddit
Riker probably has several hundred illegitimate kids spread across time and space
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
according to ds9 guys take a monthly(?)injection as birth control. Given his lifestyle I'd imagine riker is on top of that
city_posts@reddit
Data had a kid it just died of cascade failure.
But I think you're just looking at the star fleet and not the federation citizens.
Those Irish colonists had no trouble with making babies
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
the terribly prejudiced and offensive portrayal of the irish and children who died
city_posts@reddit
That's the one
Illustrious-Leg5906@reddit
Hardly. The future will be littered with automation
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
are you saying data and the exocomps are trying to replace us!
Illustrious-Leg5906@reddit
Of course! But seriously no matter what our future is robots will be doing a lot. They're already doing a lot. Obviously there's a fine line we can't cross
mindlessgames@reddit
They have so many kids they had to start filling their warships with them.
Complex_Professor412@reddit
Maybe if Jean Luca brother enlisted, there might still be someone to carry on the Picard name.
carrobucks@reddit
lwaxana has two living kids, deanna & barin! also in comic canon pulaski has a daughter if you wanna count that
alyssa ogawa was pregnant at the end of TNG so she probably has at least one kid too
but yeah yknow. i'd say the federation probably doesn't prioritize babies 'cause that's what all these colonists are for
Dizzy-Violinist-1772@reddit
Alyssa lost her baby in the Best of Both Worlds, I don’t know if that was rectified when Picard rectified the timeline
carrobucks@reddit
none of the future stuff in All Good Things is from the canon timeline so it seems fair to assume that's not canon either
rudager62369@reddit
Riker and Troi had two. And Worf has a kid? That is probably a typo.
Dizzy-Violinist-1772@reddit
Worf + two parters produced one kid.
rudager62369@reddit
I was being facetious. Obviously, we're all familiar with Worf as he's a famously attentive father.
Snowdeo720@reddit
Jeremy asters parents getting mentioned has me dying laughing, well done.
Sea_Negotiation_1871@reddit
Data had a daughter.
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
0 living children
ejk95@reddit
Yeah, but your comment was about birthrate.
Sea_Negotiation_1871@reddit
True.
noonaneomuyeppiyeppi@reddit
On the other hand, who knows how many more secret children Sarek has
bts@reddit
Starfleet was a lonely life until the Galaxy class. But people seem to live for a very long time; perhaps they do family for a while and Starfleet for a while.
and we know most people think Starfleet are… eccentric.
scabertrain@reddit
Intergalactic immigration and automation. You don't need that many humans.
Longjumping-Room-796@reddit
Well, we don't really know about Riker lol If even Picard had a son he didn't know of, imagine Riker.
kaaskugg@reddit
Jeffrey Combs spreading his seed all over the quadrant does make for that.
Crimson3312@reddit
The true Progenitor
Jedi4Hire@reddit
I doubt it, considering how often the Federation is founding new colonies.
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit (OP)
that just makes the problem worse. The colonies keep getting wiped out by the borg, klingons, romulans, hoznak,corporate and the crystalline entity
wizardrous@reddit
People get duplicated enough to balance it out