How long to understand cars?
Posted by CharlieMayMC@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 70 comments
how long do you think it would take to go from never opened car bonnet before to knowing how to fix cars? How would you do it?
NightKnown405@reddit
You can expect to spend at least five years learning the basics, and that's if you work really hard at it. This would include getting some college level electronics education. Then it's really up to the individual, but another ten to fifteen years to really get good at it and start becoming what people would consider a master technician. However, there is no finish line and the need to study more and more just keeps growing as the years go by.
LameBMX@reddit
I ain't never done no college level electronics. but from the tech school course, I'm comfy repairing a cars computer. college level would be designing a cars computer systems.
NightKnown405@reddit
Totally disagree. You may be doing OK, but you could be even better with a solid electronics background.
LameBMX@reddit
you don't need college level to WORK on things and be proficient. your working on a car and odds are you will be ordering a replacement component. that's basic stuff a bit beyond HS could be helpful. tech school is understanding and repairing the circuit board (which basically no one in here is doing). college is knowing enough to calculate how many through via's and surface area of copper to disappiate heat generated by an unsinked component to survive 200+f in a running vehicle while maintaining signal integrity at whatever speed the information is traveling.
NightKnown405@reddit
I know several hundred techs around the country that have the kind of education to truly excel in the trade and are creating routines that make technicians more efficient and accurate than we have ever been. I don't know why you have to try to belittle what you don't know but I guarantee to you that you are dead wrong and technicians need to take it to another level if they are going to keep pace with the technology in today's and tomorrow's cars. Maybe before you try and say anything else negative you should sit in a few classes and learn how to do a relative compression test in less than five minutes. Learn how to use pressure transducers for compression testing. Learn how to use them to confirm if the valve timing or valve train is the source of a problem without having to do any disassembly beyond pulling a spark plug.
I studied electronics back in the early 80s and my career was never the same after that epiphany. That education has only gotten to be more important as the years go by.
LameBMX@reddit
so you got your bac in EE to be a wrench turner? yes, those guys are creating the tools for the technicians. they are not the technicians. which falls 100% in line with what I have been saying.
what class in college level electronics does one learn to do a relative compression test? none of those things require much electronics knowledge to actually use.
while i feel you have proven my point quite emphatically. I will concede this, my interest in electronics predated my ability to drive and was also back in the 80's. so I had a solid grasp of the basics before turning wrenches. I really liked when cars got loaded with sensor that would tell me what was wrong with them. then OBDII, which gave you all that info in real time. so I never had a chance for an epiphany of usefulness, the knowledge was always there. but never college level, though my unfinished degree would have brought some due to the direction I wanted to go with that education. but alas I dropped out and never took those courses.
my formal electronics training was 1.5 years in the early 00s and made it to logic & circuit reverse engineering. yes, I replaced a faulty mosfet controlling a coil pack. time vs money including diag and repair.. its better to buy a new ecm. if you have an auto tech that can do that fix, electronics tech offers a solid bump in pay with less scraped knuckles and hidden bolts. it's literally what I've been doing these days (diag and repairing circuit boards, never wrenching on cars for cash)
NightKnown405@reddit
Not a BA, just an AD. I studied electronics because I was fed up with not being paid for diagnostic time. We started working on computer controls in 81-82. When we had a car that had a problem we could get the code and then we were supposed to follow the trouble tree. Even then I had figured out that the diagnostic trouble trees were useless unless the car had a hard failure present for the entire time that you were trying to use it for diagnostics. So as I said I was a mechanic first and then went out and got my own education in electronics because I was going to quit fixing cars and learn to repair computers. That was in 83, and a funny thing happened. I got better at diagnosing car problems. I even went as far as to carry into the shop a hand built two trace Heath scope, that was in 84. I remember the other techs laughing back then, but what they didn't realize is suddenly I could diagnose and prove whether a code 42 was caused by a module, the ECM or the wiring because I was able to compare two circuits at a time and see which one dropped first. Everyone else was left with having to guess because the trouble tree would only lead them to "no trouble found" or "substitute known good part" and they didn't get paid a dime for the effort beyond the labor to change the correct part. The "tryzees" were unpaid time.
Today's auto technician has to be strong in math and science. Have real training in electronics and develop critical thinking skills. Plus be able to be the mechanic that can replace parts when that is what the solution requires.
Even today while onboard diagnostics has gotten much better and some trouble codes can be very accurate cars don't actually tell technicians what is wrong. Trouble codes tell the technician what test failed, and that does not always mean that a part is bad. Onboard diagnostics can't help when the data business is crashed and no communication is taking place. That's just one of the kinds of problems that rely solely on a technician's knowledge, skills and tooling.
LameBMX@reddit
I used torque app for years because not only will it give you the trouble codes, but gives you real time sensor output. like the catalytic converter efficiency reduced code.. bank 2 o2 was randomly completely dropping to 0v while driving. check visible wires, looked good. replaced sensor, problem resolved. sensor is easier than checking the full wiring path. now I have a Ford, and forscan is even more fun to play with.
we have testers at work that require comes to Russia to function. it's so friggin annoying. someone in the office watches a video and we get dropouts on our equipment. smh.
I also never formally learned vehicles. but I do agree critical thinking skills go a long way. the ICE is really the same as ages ago. suck, press, bang, blow. Just now, instead of a spinning thingamajig you physically interact with and bournelli helping you suck a tiny amount of gas through a hole, you got a table that that links a bunch of sensors input to how much and long sprak and fuel is triggered.
NightKnown405@reddit
We have engines today that to check the spark plugs you need to remove the intake manifold first. There are engines with four A/F sensors and two downstream sensors. We have engine control systems that can identify a single cylinder that is 15% richer or leaner than the average, but don't tell us which cylinder nor which direction the correction is occurring. Variable valve timing. Variable valve lift. Quad Camshaft Multivalve. Multi Air. Twin turbochargers. Variable Intake runner control. Direct Injection. On top of Otto Cycle, we have Miller Cycle, and Atkinson Cycle designs. Just to name a few (there is more) differences between today's engines and what gasoline engines used to be like.
Today we have fun problems like a Dodge (Stellantis) 4.7 where you have a specific cylinder misfire that has good compression, has spark and has fuel but it just doesn't fire. Conventional testing will include disassembly to prove what is wrong. A relative compression test with an oscilloscope takes less than five minutes to set-up and perform and it nails it every time and I can get that information just from the battery voltage cranking the engine.
We have other cars that have similar symptom descriptions that may depend on engine load or speed for the symptom to occur, some ONLY do it on the road. Again, the oscilloscope is the absolute king for diagnostics which could be a delta (differential) pressure transducer in either the intake or exhaust or go in cylinder and monitor the compression live and even see the valve operation in all four strokes to see the answer without any disassembly aside from removing a spark plug. We have hollow tube camshafts with pressed on lobes that come loose, and you have one cylinder with "a cam out of time" causing a misfire. In cylinder pressure testing is the way to efficiently prove that failure but can often be partially confirmed with the delta sensors. With GDI it can hours to try and swap injectors for a test and you have to replace all of the cylinder end seals each time they are removed and reinstalled. The injection pulse starts with a high voltage typically 65v but can be anywhere from 45v to 90v for 330 microseconds to rapidly open the injector then steps down to a power side pulse width modulation as a hold function to complete the fuel charge delivery and the entire even is right around one millisecond +/-.
We use three channel accelerometers to measure vibration speeds along with data inputs that allow oscilloscope software to identify the source of a vibration while on the road.
Forscan is an awesome tool. It's as close as you can get to having the actual Ford IDS, but it still falls short of an actual license for the real thing. Today a lot of the O.E. tools are available via short term subscription. There was a period from 1998 to about 2012 where if we wanted to work eye level with the dealerships we had to own and keep the actual O.E. scan tool. That was more than a $140,000 expense (for me) in tooling that all goes into the garbage can someday.
I have a Jeep Wrangler here that won't shift out of first. There is no output shaft speed signal for the TCM (transmission control module). There is no sensor, that data is created by the ABS which turns out to have some wheel speed sensor issues. You haven't gotten to enjoy the full experience of this work until you have a computer in the system that has an internal fault and is corrupting the information the microprocessor needs to carry out all of its jobs. An example of that is when you have an analog to digital convertor incorrectly processing an analog input, but only under certain conditions.
I won't even get into the F550 that had a random misfire, flashing MIL on the dash at 60mph on the road that didn't actually have a misfire. (That one stumped a dealership) I'll just let you try and imagine how we(I) proved the tone ring on the crankshaft was loose with a single road test and no disassembly.
Lastly, we do have automobile technicians today doing board level repairs and programming. It was nothing for me to do a power transistor or replace a damaged board flat resistors or caps twenty to thirty years ago, but they are far too small and take a steady hand and younger eyes (even with magnification) to do it reliably so while I have played with that in the last few years with some success it was merely to add the information for reference usage in the classroom.
LameBMX@reddit
you want a reflow workstation setup. good hotplate and air gun. the you only need to get the 0201 (2mmx1mm) flats touching silver. when it's shiny give a tap nearby and they will pop right into place. I deal with those daily on a shit ton of coffee and slightly farsighted vision. why place shit when the hot solder will center itself.
tone ring.. that would be comparing crankshaft hall position sensor to a camshaft position sensor. can be done with a silly scope, but the output graphs in like torque or another scan tool would show the same drifting offset.
you forgot wankals.. I'm not a detail person.. so all that stuff the same to me. still kicking my own but for letting the 924 go. between megasquirt being available for mfi and an inertial driven variable timing camshaft that was out in places.. smh. but these days there are funner home brew options available.
NightKnown405@reddit
Tore a couple rotary's apart for the fun of it, never actually repaired any internals on one. The engine controls were like any other whether they were carbureted or had fuel injection so that wasn't big deal. They did have their own learning curve. Trailing versus Leading spark plugs. Having one get flooded, and you just had to keep cranking it until compression restored. Adding some oil directly to the rotors helped a little when that happened but you still had to crank the heck out of it.
The flow station techniques are pretty neat. I'd like to see how they figured that out in the first place. Again, we all have to choose what we want to do and what truly makes sense to try. Frankly on top of little chance for a return on the investment I have so much on my plate these days with what I already do that's just not a priority to me.
The diagnostics on the tone ring go beyond just trying to compare the cam and crank signals with a known good even with making an overlay out of one of them. The crankshaft waveform all by itself is sufficient and what we do is use the oscilloscope software to create a math channel and plot the frequency of the signal. Then start editing the Min/Max of that display down so you can interpret the acceleration/deceleration of the signal just like the engine controller does when it detects a misfire.
Now you have an idea of just what is behind the scenes when we are walking up to a car or responding to a post here. Just imagine what it is like when someone criticizes or mocks a technician with this kind of experience and capability when they themselves wouldn't be trusted to change oil on a customer's car without direct supervision until they prove they are competent to do so.
LameBMX@reddit
you can use the same techniques with an iron. but then you gotta hold it in place or get the knack to snap the iron. iron has more heat so the component want to follow the iron.
Substantial-Set-8981@reddit
Quicker than trying to understand women
DavidinCT@reddit
No such thing, trust me on this one. You will drive yourself crazy trying to understand and you might get to the point where think you hit the promised land and they screw up everything...
Trust me on this one...
do2g@reddit
They still don't make an accurate code reader for them
unserious-dude@reddit
You are the code reader. And you failed last time dog!
do2g@reddit
I fail every time bro. My therapist/bartender knows.
frikkinfai@reddit
If only women had a check engine light and an OBD port to diagnose issues
LameBMX@reddit
OBDII ...
ActuallyStark@reddit
I disagree with this entirely. OBD was operated by putting a paperclip in the right holes until it flashes at you.
If do that to a woman and she flashes you, there are NO problems.
TheCamoTrooper@reddit
Lmao OBD0 on the other hand just goes "there's a problem" Great what is it? "You figure it out"
LameBMX@reddit
ummm... you're not wrong!
Gullible-Honeydew-86@reddit
Real
Knighthawk235@reddit
As the great Al Bundy once said: "Don't try to understand women. Women understand women and they hate each other."
someguyfromsk@reddit
That's because cars have gauges and warning lights.
KarlJay001@reddit
It's a lot easier if you just want to understand ONE car. There's a lot of variations in cars and how they do things. Learning your car can be something like a year or two of studying. Being a general mechanic for all or most cars is different.
I'd start out with watching "how to" videos in YT.
No-Leading-4232@reddit
You should learn to work on a weed eater or some small engine first. There’s a bunch of crap in the way on new cars
LameBMX@reddit
tell me you have never worked on a mid 70's to late 80's vehicle without saying it. those were the epitome of cluttered engines. vacuum stuff, smog pumps, egr stuff
505backup_1@reddit
Just remove it, most of it is gimmicks or doesn't function
ride5k@reddit
small engines first. learn the basics, fire/air/fuel. get a handle on being handy/dexterous with manual work. cleanliness, keeping track of fasteners and parts. walk then run.
Dunoh2828@reddit
6 years in the field, I can say I can diagnose and fix most issues.
However I’m always learning new things and by no means an expert.
What others may see as common car knowledge can be seen as unknown to others. It’s all about who and where you learn from and what you’re exposed to.
For example I knew someone who only worked on a single type of car. He can tell you anything and everything about them. Give him let’s say any type of merc or Audi? Wouldn’t know where to start (besides basics ect)
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
I've been doing this 10 years and I still don't understand most things. It's a lifelong commitment
SeasonalBlackout@reddit
Here's how I did it - I joined the army and was the supply sergeant for the motor pool. Those guys walked me through my first oil change and inside of a few months I knew a lot. Later I worked at an aftermarket automotive retailer and got involved helping other people with their projects. I've installed lift kits, superchargers, turbo kits, etc... I've never cracked a transmission, but it's on my list of things to learn.
Extreme_Map9543@reddit
I learned a lot in the army as well. I wasn’t a mechanic but an engineer. And we had lots of heavy equipment we needed to maintain.
LameBMX@reddit
auto.. go to junkyard and snag the cheapest 4 banger tranny. have fun ripping apart and getting back together with no spare parts.
stick.. IF you manage to find a reason, sounds like you'll do fine.
K57-41@reddit
This is a solid answer
Extreme_Map9543@reddit
Daily drive a beater and do all your own repairs. Use YouTube university and asking friends. And buy the Haynes manual and read through it all. If you do that. I’d say over the course of 2-3 years you’ll have done enough repairs and seen enough stuff and solved enough problems you’d understand cars.
unserious-dude@reddit
You can just get training as a car mechanic.
WWGHIAFTC@reddit
You don't.
Focus on the ONE thing you need to learn. Then pick a new thing next time.
SummertimeThrowaway2@reddit
It took me about 2-3 years of lurking online to finally feel like I know how cars work. Now I can look under the hood of most cars and more or less guess what 60% of the parts do (this looks like a coolant line, this is the brake motor, this is the fuel rail, etc)
jailfortrump@reddit
You tube videos on everything. Obviously there are some things only technicians can do because you need a computer to get into systems.
Whack-a-Moole@reddit
The generic answer is that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert in a subject.
1boog1@reddit
Now that I'm 51, that sounds about right, after tinkering and repairing my own stuff for my adult life. I'm still not an expert.
UnoriginalVagabond@reddit
That's too learn a skill, not obtain knowledge.
ErwinHolland1991@reddit
On very specialized subjects maybe. On more general or broad things, like a car... Thats no where near. 10k hours to become an expert on one specific car, maybe.
ActuallyStark@reddit
First, spend 40 years and countless thousands of dollars breaking things.
Then pay someone else to fix them, realizing it just cost more to let someone ELSE break them.
THEN go back to fixing them long enough that you realize you don't really enjoy driving anymore.
Buy an EV, drive it like an iPhone.
Get a toy you actually enjoy and it doesn't matter if it gets fixed this weekend. Love it while it runs, don't stress when it doesn't.
Sorry, what was your question?
cyprinidont@reddit
To do simple jobs, not long. I did my first brake job about a year ago and I have now replaced over 20 parts on my car, suspension, engine components, etc.
ZimaGotchi@reddit
The fastest way is to get a simple car then take it apart and put it back together for fun.
ashleysellsco@reddit
Buy a shitbox and make it your daily. you’ll learn real quick
source: me 🫠
Busterlimes@reddit
Did you own an RC car that you worked on growing up? Did you build model cars? Personally, I've been around cars my entire life, so it's difficult to answer. But how much do you know going in? There are plenty of things that teach you basic mechanical skills that don't directly deal with cars.
REF_YOU_SUCK@reddit
start with all the basic recommended maintenence in your cars manual. Learn how to change the belts and fluids. Once you have that down you can start trying to fix issues when they come up. Youtube is a huge help with this. Theres almost always a video somewhere of how to do what you want.
Any_Honeydew9812@reddit
in my experience its a baseline : it bolts in, it comes out. Once you do this a few times on different parts it all kinda comes into focus.
I've always been interested in cars but i always drove old toyota's or lexus's and never really needed to learn how to work on them .. that all changed 6 years ago when i was gifted a 2001 turbo charged Volvo from a family member and BOY OH BOY did i ever need to learn. and learn i did! I went from almost zero experience to replacing the following:
alternator, radiator x 2, timing belt and water pump, lower balljoints, both drive axels, front struts, all 5 spark plugs and coils, a/c pump.. i even got to try my hand at welding when my muffler broke. Its not done, i've got a list currently and look forward to my next few little projects on the car.
If it wasnt for learning how to fix this thing i would NEVER be able to afford to keep it on the road.
Equana@reddit
Well, it has taken over 50 years now. I don't know everything but I can fix most things on my own cars even as they become more and more complicated and electronics driven. Still learning every day
SamCamJaik1@reddit
Buy an older BMW. You’ll know how to fix everything in no-time. Literally what happened to me.
VW-MB-AMC@reddit
Have been working on cars as a hobby for 22 years. I am still learning and will continue to do that for as long as I live. How long time it would take can depend a lot on what kind of car you have. If it is an old car with technology from the middle of the last century you can get a hang of it quite fast. But if it is a newer car that is full of wires, computers and and anything else imaginable it will ne a steeper learning curve.
GloomyRub7382@reddit
Youtube is your friend. There are many many (so very many) content developer / mechanics / engineers / DIYers that shown generic and specific repair and maintenance tasks. A few of my own personal favorites: CarCareNut, SouthMainAuto, Rainman Ray's, I Do Cars, Driving 4 Answers, Car Wizard, and more, and more, and more...
If you know nothing, start with searching for basic car operations first.
kalelopaka@reddit
I learned most everything within a few years, from 11-15 I learned everything about cars, and all different makes and models.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Decades ago when I was in high school, I took a summer school class from my local vocational-technical college "Intro to Auto Mechanics and Repair" or some such. From shop safety, to theory of combustion, to inspections, electrics, pneumatics, hydraulics, how to calibrate a torque wrench, and practical maintenance basics like oil and filter changes, bleeding brakes, fluid flushes, etc. ... all the things. Got to work on my own car doing these things during the class.
I've used what I learned from that class and applied it more than any other class I ever took in school. Learned a ton and didn't cost me a dime. I think they charge adults $200 or so these days, still a fantastic deal on an education that can easily save you thousands the first year.
That said, I grew up working on our bikes with friends, doing basic lawnmower mainteannce, swapping winter wheels/tires with my dad, etc. All very basic wrench turning stuff. So I wasn't afraid to pick up a wrench and get greasy on the first day in that summer auto shop class. But even if you haven't, they'll show you how.
ErwinHolland1991@reddit
It's also very dependant on your existing skills, handiness and your ability to learn.
There is no answer to this question.
Entire-Ambassador-94@reddit
For me, it's moreso learning how to "fix" in general. If something, a car, dishwasher, barbecue, etc. is broken, try to find a point half way in the system that you can test to see if things are working (voltage reading, light turning on, relay clicking, lever moving, motor spinning, etc). If things are working at that point, your problem is in the second half. If not, the first. Keep cutting it in half until you find the one thing that's broken and find a YouTube video on how to replace it. You'll never fully understand cars because cars are constantly changing. But you can learn how to be good at splitting broken systems in half.
Sarionum@reddit
You do it by employing some knowledge about how vehicle engines work. Lots of videos online about how an engine runs, then you need to watch specific videos on your make and model. Luckily for me, I drive Toyota and every one of their cars are made the same. So watching a repair for one vehicle is almost identical for my own.
Aggravating-Shark-69@reddit
The rest of your life
375InStroke@reddit
I was taking my bike apart, and putting it back together before I was in school. My grandfather had me working on his '62 Mercury before I could drive. Gave me the factory service manual, and I went to town. He didn't tell me how to do it. He gave me the manual. Only need his help with tight bolts, which was most of the time, lol. Then he gave me the car when I was 15. I was rebuilding motors and automatic transmissions while still a teenager, because I wasn't going to afford paying someone to do it. I just didn't want anyone else doing this shit for me, and mostly I just don't trust people. Starting out with a new car is probably going to be an uphill climb. They pay me to fly around the world to fix commercial aircraft that the airlines can't figure out themselves, but new cars are terrible to fix. New cars sit at the dealers for months waiting for parts, or someone that can figure them out. Get something old to learn on. The more you love the car, the better, and get a factory service manual.
Odd_Ordinary_7668@reddit
If you get old stuff, then for some people (most people from what ive encountered) it doesn’t take long at all. You can not know a damn thing about mechanics but working on old stuff with a shop manual you found online and some YouTube it’s not hard at all.
Today’s vehicles? Forget it.
mordolycka@reddit
you will continually learn. i've been at it for about 4 years now and im still learning. i've learned a LOT over these 4 years as i pick up things very quickly.
you will learn infinitely more with hands on experience than you will by watching youtube videos, but youtube is a great place to start. learn the basics of engines, suspension, brakes, etc. through there and start fixing your own problems. do this on an easy to learn car (a car that when you open the hood you can see the ground through the engine bay. a civic is a great example but i don't know how obtainable that is in the UK. i assume that's where you're from because of the use of "bonnet").
cat_of_danzig@reddit
You need to understand that "how to fix cars" is a very broad topic. As noted elsewhere, working on a small engine will go a long way to understanding things. Buying an old car with plenty of access under the hood and relatively simple components will take you further. A newer car will have an ECU and fuel injection, which adds a level of complexity in terms of tech, but may be simpler conceptually than figuring out a carburetor. You will spend hours fixing things that still do not work. Then consider that an engine is not a transmission, nor is it suspension, and it's sure as hell not brakes. These are all distinct systems that require maintenance. Some principles will translate, like how tight is tight enough if there's no torques specification, or where do fluid leaks or vacuum leaks come from?
Here is how I've done it- I bought an MGB and fix things that break using forums and youtube videos. I do not fix my wife's car. I do not need this car for daily transportation. I buy tools that I need. I help buddies that know what they are doing, and ask for help.
CHLarkin@reddit
For someone of average ability, you should be able to grasp most of the basic how stuff works in a few weeks.
Actually fixing it or being comfortable with doing the job may take longer.
SmoothSlavperator@reddit
Depends what vehicle and what you're really trying to fix....and what your budget is for tools and what you have for space.
If you have a whole ass garage with a lift and all the accouterments...and you're working on an '89 Civic....you could probably figure it out in a few weeks to a few months as long as you're not trying to rebuild an engine. When I was growing up in the 80s it was common for a teenager to be able to build a Jeep from scratch.
If you're trying to do it in a driveway on a $500 tool budget and its any vehicle made in the last 20 years, you're going to have a shallower learning curve.
No-Leading-4232@reddit
1-2 years if you get an old BMW, had to fix at least 3 things a month.
rudbri93@reddit
its a never ending journey. Personally i like hands on working, but grabbing a shop manual and starting of with some youtube videos for basic maintenance is a good start. Change wiper blades, air filter, learn to inspect tires for odd wear patterns and check lights.