What is considered "high maintenance costs"?
Posted by SuperDabMan@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 75 comments
Basically, the maintenance question is a pretty critical argument when people want to talk about buying, leasing, or used cars. I'm curious what is actually considered, in dollars, a lot?
I think this is pretty tricky because, to give an example, I had some expensive repairs on my car at around 200k km, but, that means I can go another 200k on those parts... it's expensive if I sold it right away but the longer you own it the lower the costs get. Many cars have "known problems" like, say water pumps, but although it's expensive to fix, you're good to go for a long time on that car once you do it.
So, as car guys what is a lot? Just for repairs and maintenance. And do you prefer to do it by time ($/yr) or by mileage ($/1000km)? Or both?
No-Conclusion8653@reddit
If you own a Ferrari, you also better own a mechanic.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
I'm more thinking Toyota vs BMW not exotics. But... yeah, no doubt.
FutureAlfalfa200@reddit
You can keep an older Honda or Toyota running for 1-2k a year.
Keeping a newer bmw or Mercedes will often cost you more per year. And the cars will be half the age/km.
DevelopmentSad2303@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F4i4nhqqj18wc1.jpeg
Yes a bmw or Mercedes will cost you more per year. Especially factoring in depreciation, but Hondas and Toyotas are not going to be that cheap unless you are lucky
CR123CR123CR@reddit
2003 Acura MDX breakdown
Brakes: every 3-5 years ($100)
Tires (every 4-5 years) ($2500)
Oil changes (3x year): $200
Trans fluid (1x year): $65
Timing belt (6 years): $1200
Suspension components (5 year): $500
Incidentals (lights/lost bolts/etc): $25/yr
Maintenance = ~$1250/yr
Repairs in 4 years of ownership:
Power steering hose leak: $20
Wheel bearings (x4): $120/ea
Repairs: $125/yr
On one of the more expensive to maintain Honda products that's over 20 years old at this point.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Thanks for posting some numbers. Wow that is cheap! Good for you. Although, 3x oil changes per year has got to be way too much, especially if wheels are every 4-5 years... that's like 4,000 km oil changes. My car recommends 10k. But, maybe that's the recommendation for yours.
Original_Bicycle5696@reddit
Those 10k intervals are good for the life of the engine. The original owners usually don't have issues...
CR123CR123CR@reddit
It's overkill for sure, but it's an older vehicle and I want it to last a few more years before it kicks the can.
DevelopmentSad2303@reddit
I don't doubt you, but you are disputing a report that examined multiple models from Honda across multiple owners/time frames.
Trying to provide helpful context to anyone that might be considering a Honda with the assumption that "it will cost 1-2k a year to maintain".
Not the norm, at least based on the stats
CR123CR123CR@reddit
I think the big thing is it's $1-2k in MATERIALS to maintain. If you pay someone else to do it (which most people do) I could see that number going up quite a bit.
Kinda like the timing belt in my example. I paid someone to do it so it cost 3x what the parts would have cost me to do it. But it saved me an afternoon and the last time I did one I was dumb and ended up needing to retime the engine.
windmill09@reddit
I had a 2011 BMW 335i and a 2013 G37 IPL. The BMW by 80k miles costed me $8k in maintenance and repairs. The Infiniti by 180k miles costed me $2k in maintenance and repairs.
toefungi@reddit
In fairness that's one of the least reliable engines BMW has made versus a Nissan V6 that is a variation of a.moter they have used for 20 years across many models...
Do this comparison with a 2011 328i and it will be closer to the Infiniti.
Hell even my e90 m3 is cheaper to maintain than a 335.
windmill09@reddit
That is true, but the 335i is more comparable to a G37 IPL than an M3 or 328i. The M3 is more comparable to the ISF and RCF which are also several times more reliable than pretty much any generation of the M3. I have a Lexus 2015 RCF and 2010 IS250 now with over 120k miles and they have never had an issue.
toefungi@reddit
Agreed, but a Toyota doesn't get you 8400 rpms from a V8 😁
windmill09@reddit
Haha for sure Every time I see one show up on Facebook with the Big 3 done, I just want to snatch it up, especially at the prices they are going for now. The new M3s are super car fast, but the E9x are the best road cars IMO with that high reving V8. Definitely an end game future classic. Enjoy that beast man!
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Oh that's a great source, do you have the original article link?
I will say though, they asked for maintenance costs of the last 12 months so then, what, average it out? Seems a little suspect, rather than looking at lifetime ownership costs.
DevelopmentSad2303@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/whatcarshouldIbuy/comments/1cb35jy/consumer_reports_survey_on_maintenance_costs_by/
This is the reddit post I got it from. Unfortunately idk where they got it from :(
But yes I believe they are taking an average based on all models across the makes they have. So it would be comparing a Ford f150 and a Ford focus and fiesta etc. for the Ford estimates.
So as with all averages, some models will be better or worse than others for each make. But it should capture, generally, what you can expect to pay for the brand
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Thanks. I found a slightly newer version on their site, but similar rankings: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/
DevelopmentSad2303@reddit
Keep in mind too it is looking up to 10 years old on vehicles. Past that the expenses could be even more different
Rapom613@reddit
This is 100% I have previously worked at both MB and Honda, doing front pads and rotors on a pilot or an Odyssey is more expensive than the vast majority of MBs, and the Mercedes will never have warped rotors. And they have a similar lifespan in normal driving
Mycroft_Holmes1@reddit
Toyota can get expensive too, Mine has a set of front discs that costs $700 to $1500, then the rears are only slightly cheaper I think.
I also have to do oil changes every 5k miles at the most but I do 3k because it is a turbocharged engine.
Tires are expensive, my winters were almost $200 a tire, my summers are similar.
Premium gas, a lot of toyotas are turboed now and require at least 91
I think the new Tacomas are all turboed too so I assume they need 5k oil changes and take premium gas.
2wheeledtramp@reddit
Goddamn! $1500 for a pair of rotors? WTF are they made out of? If that's an OEM part and price, I'd scour the aftermarket for something else. That's insane.
Mycroft_Holmes1@reddit
You could get powerstops, but I want at least OEM quality if I'm not getting oem, I've heard too many things about how they are a budget option, and 2 things I think people shouldn't cheap out on, tires and brakes, they are the only thing connecting you to the road and stopping, a good pair or tires and brakes vs budget ones takes meters off of the stopping distances. That 12-24 feet could be saving you from an accident.
2wheeledtramp@reddit
I certainly wouldn't buy the least expensive no name parts I could find but there has to be an OEM equivalent out there.
I replaced the rotors on my Tundra with what was supposed to be the OEM supplier's rotors and they worked just like OEM did for me. I'm sorry I don't remember the brand. The last time I found OEM for roughly the same price so I went back. I still can't tell a difference.
My truck is a giant toad and I drive it as such. It will never be mistaken for a sports car. If Toyota tried to charge me that much for rotors, I'd cut a hole in the floorboard and learn to stop like Fred Flintstone.
toefungi@reddit
"Good" brakes only really matter if you are going to be abusing them regularly or want low dust options.
Even the cheapest of brake pads and rotors are going to panic stop a normal car just as fast as fancy Brembos. Tires are the limited factor 99 out of 100 times.
Mycroft_Holmes1@reddit
I won't argue that point, I'll even agree cheaper brakes are proven to stop better on the first hard application because performance ones require heat in them to perform optimally, that's why you hear expensive cars brakes squeal when they are too cold, not just worn pads.
Rus_Shackleford_@reddit
With as good as the power stops have been on my Infiniti, that’s what I’m going with from now on. The factory front rotors from Infiniti cost as much as pads and rotors front and rear from powerstop, and unlike then OE rotors, these don’t warp.
No-Let-6057@reddit
It’s relative though. If you can afford a BMW and its maintenance costs, then it’s not exactly high, it becomes normal.
I think the idea is that if the maintenance cost is more than your (estimated) ability to afford a monthly payment then it’s a high maintenance cost.
In other words if you can afford a $1,200 a month car payment you can afford a $5k repair. If you can afford a $200 car payment you can’t afford a $5k repair.
Old_Acanthaceae5198@reddit
My rule of thumb is plan for a 20% premium over the life of the car.
That being said, the current generation of BMW is historically very reliable for them. They still aren't Toyota but if you want a more sporty experience send it. If you just want luxury consider Lexus.
Numerous_Teacher_392@reddit
Every once in a while, a Toyota needs something fixed. My 2007 Tacoma 4x4 has needed some front wheel bearings and an alternator, a sensor that was leaking oil a bit, etc. over the last 4 years.
That stuff is "expensive", but only if you have no idea what cars cost to buy, drive, and maintain.
But you can look up TCO on line for just about any car. Don't trust rumors. Just look.
A BMW makes a Porsche look cheap to own, if you look.
Rapom613@reddit
I personally look at it in terms of a percentage of the MSRP, because it should be understood that a Porsche will cost more than a Pontiac.
Anything over 3% annually, is too high IMO
And what you are referring to is value. It can be expensive, but if it’s lasts a long time does it really cost that much? Like a BIFL style purchase
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Oh that's a good one. Do you think it applies to used cars - % of MSRP? Obviously you pay less for used but are closer to things breaking so repair costs go up, but depreciation is little.
Rapom613@reddit
Yes. Provided everything is up to date and you aren’t playing catch up, it will track. Some years will be more, some less, but that is a solid average for keeping up with them
Case in point, I fully expect my 2008 Range Rover that I paid less than 1k for to cost me 2-3k every year, the price I paid for the car is irrelevant, as servicing and repairs never depreciate
arabcowboy@reddit
I say paying anything more than 15% of the current value of the vehicle per year on maintenance would be too much for most people. So if you’ve got a 100,000 car and it cost you more than 15000 in service (oil change, tires, repairs etc) you must love that car. If you have a 5000 car and you are asked to do $750 worth of brakes and suspension work you might think twice about getting it done or having a mechanic do it for you.
I don’t agree and my threshold is a lot higher but that’s generally what I see with other people.
04limited@reddit
I don’t think there’s a definitive answer but I’ll give you my definition of high maintenance.
I had a Maserati Ghibli a few years ago. 8 quarts of 5w40 was something like $100. Oil filter $30. Air filters(2 filters because two different intakes) $80. $1000 for pads & rotors because they’re 6 piston Brembos.
I consider that high maintenance costs because a Camry takes 5 quarts and I can probably get an oil/filter deal for $40. One air filter for $30. Pads and rotor set $450.
Doing all the work myself I’m paying an extra $500+ on the Maserati. Yeah I know different car it’s apples to oranges comparison but if you look at maintenance costs alone it’s considerably higher to do the same basic stuff.
Once you start adding repairs into the mix the line is harder to draw. Like my Ford F150. None of the maintenance was expensive in any way. Parts weren’t expensive either. But the thing needed nickel and dime repairs every month and it added up to like $1500 a year, for the two years that I owned it. Granted it’s a one time repair, but still costs money and until the whole truck is new it likely will keep needing small repairs.
I can do a lot of work myself so high maintenance costs cars don’t really turn me away. For me, it comes down to if I can obtain the proper diagnostic/repair tools. If I’m forced to take the car to the dealer for diagnostics then it’s going to be expensive. But I have a ton of BMW diag/tools so I don’t consider them to have high maintenance costs. PITA to work on yes, but not expensive.
Frird2008@reddit
I judge it by how many thousand dollars it takes to drive it reliably per 100K miles after the last warranty contract expires.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Okay so what's the number
Frird2008@reddit
Above the segment average
TheTense@reddit
So generally I’d budget $2000 a year in repair and maintenance costs per year for a normal car outside of warranty. This is my safe gut feeling. This would be something like a set of tires, brakes, or 2 major trips to the shop per year
If you do DIY, it’ll be <$500 per year. Basically fluid and parts.
I have an old Toyota and DIY repairs are cheap and infrequent. I think I’ve spent $80 in oil changes over the past year total.I have a friend with. BMW he takes to the dealer twice a year, he can’t leave without spending $1000 each visit.
Overall, my general rule of thumb. Is if the repair cost + value of your personal time exceeds 75% of a car payment, time to buy a car.
PckMan@reddit
The thing about maintenance costs is that they're always more or less the same. You might buy a car new or used and the price of purchase can vary wildly but parts and servicing will always cost the same. A lot of people seem to not realize that which is why you have so many people eagerly buying cheap BMWs or Mercedes Benzes and being gobsmacked when they get their first maintenance bill. Parts and work on the car will always cost the same as if it's new, or more specifically that's for the first 15-20 years. After that it actually gets more expensive to maintain a car as parts become rarer and some times the know how to work on them too.
So it's basically a relative question. Average cost of maintenance relative to cost of purchase, or relative to mileage per servicing. What that's worth to someone is up to them but it's important to have a clear picture of it before you go balls deep on a car that you might not actually be able to afford.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Here's mine. Is this a lot or not. Guess the car? lol.
Row Labels
LiveMarionberry3694@reddit
Holy shit this is wildly expensive. I think there’s gray area on what is considered high maintenance and expensive to upkeep, but this is well into the expensive territory
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Summer and winter set, and I was driving 1000km per week.
MoirasPurpleOrb@reddit
Different cars wear tires differently though. And some are more expensive than others.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Nothing lasts forever. ALL cars will require wear-out replacement work starting at 100kmi and up (hopefully not sooner).
Water pumps, timing belts, suspension ball joints, steering end links, spark plugs, injectors, brakes, CV-axles ... all of them, are wear-out parts that need replacement on vehicles sooner or later. And all of them cost money
A water pump wear out failure at 100kmi is not a "known problem" but rather a "known wear out replacement" item. Gotta change your thinking and budget accordingly. For a 100k-200k car I would budget $1-2k per year. For 200k-300k, 2-3k per year. This is GM, Ford, FCA, Hyundai/Kia money. European cars will be 2x-5x that (German and Italian luxury at the high end). All of these numbers I consider "normal maintenance costs."
"High maintenance cost" would be double normal.
BitOfAZeldaFan3@reddit
I consider my mini cooper to have very high maintenance costs, because every part that I have to replace, no matter how simple and small, costs hundreds of dollars, 6 hours to install, and a BMW specific special tool to do it right. Something breaks once or twice a year. I'm on my fourth thermostat housing. High maintenance cost means that minor problems will park the car for a couple weeks while I wait on parts to ship and I have a free entire weekend to work on it.
My Honda CRV on the other hand, has minor problems every couple years and it takes a $45 part and 2 hours to replace, and the car still works so I don't have to take off work or pay a towtruck.
xampl9@reddit
My first gen CR-V had high maintenance costs because it needed valve clearance adjustments, 4x4 system fluids, and timing belts. But it had very low repair costs ($40 for a brake fluid sensor)
I would prefer no surprises that strand me so I was OK with this.
outline8668@reddit
I'm a mechanic by trade. I do the work myself but if I have to put more than $500/year in parts into it (excluding tires)I am extremely dissatisfied. Most years I would say I average $100-200 annually in parts.
Impressive-Crab2251@reddit
You can’t have high performance, low maintenance, and cheap. It is all a balancing act. You can call a dealer or independent shop and ask them how much a particular service is. You can google the maintenance manual and actually price everything out from oil changes, brakes, timing belt, tires, etc. repairs are more of the wild card. I had a 1987 944s out of college that I tried to find an independent shop, but the local Porsche dealer was cheaper. BMW under hood plastic will crack just looking at. If you are looking at European cars you can check parts prices at fcpeuro if you are in the US.
Another good way to understand cost is to use Napa’s online estimator, you plug your zip code, vehicle, and the repair you need and it tells you a parts cost range and labor range.
I also like to use carcomplaints dot com or their app carproblems. It tells you which model years to avoid, problem trends, recalls, tech service bulletins, nhsta complaints, etc.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
So what's a reasonable amount? What do you drive and what's your yearly maintenance and repair costs?
Impressive-Crab2251@reddit
I have 1973 karmann ghia. - maybe $200 per year. 2004 s60R Volvo - maybe $2000-3000 per year. 2006 mx5 - maybe $500 per year 2013 mx5 - maybe $500 per year 2017 armada - maybe $500 per year.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
That's a lotta cars! Cheers.
Impressive-Crab2251@reddit
Cars for 2 of the kids, I need a 3rd but she says she has more than one friend, so a third miata is not an option, wife has the armada and I have two cars, and a motorcycle that ran when I parked it 😫. Oil changes keep me busy.
ZimaGotchi@reddit
You tell us, it's subjective. What's your budget? I personally like Chryslers because you can get a lot of car cheap but I'm perfectly willing to admit that they require more repairs than other cars - *but* cars like Mercedes, while probably being somewhat more reliable than a Chrysler will be far more expensive when they do need work done on them.
Maintenance and repair tends to get lumped together but maintenance is done on a schedule and can be calculated exactly - I'm sure there are sites that do exactly that. Repair is more of a gamble but, again, some cars are known to be unreliable while others are known to be very reliable - that's why there's Toyota Tax when you buy a used one.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
See but that's what I'm talking about. It's all hearsay. How much are people with 10 year old Toyotas spending on maintenance and repairs? It's the common talking point but actually Toyota's legendary reliability is going down, they aren't run by the same people that created Lean Manufacturing. https://www.thedrive.com/news/explaining-the-toyota-reliability-crisis
I want to know because I have a thoroughly tracked spreadsheet on my maintenance. What car do you drive and what's your maintenance?
Rapom613@reddit
Unfortunately older Toyota also tend to get neglected a good bit because “it’s a Toyota” so when buying used, a lot of times it’s difficult to find a perfectly well cared for example
ZimaGotchi@reddit
I drive a full size pickup with a manual transmission so my maintenance costs are extremely low but I pay way more at the pump which is yet another factor to take into consideration when choosing a vehicle - and since you listed your mileage in kilometers I assume it's a bigger one for you and a pickup is likely not even an option although there is probably something equivalent.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
I'm not car shopping, just making conversation.
LiveMarionberry3694@reddit
And doing your own work can drastically change the costs
My 2012 grand Cherokee has cost me less than 1000 bucks including regular maintenance in the last 5-6 years I’ve had it, so imo that’s pretty cheap. But had I paid a shop cost would probably be closer to 2-3000.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
For sure, I do most of my own work except on some major components.
ZimaGotchi@reddit
Absolutely - and some cars are much easier to work on than others so even if someone doesn't want to work on their own car, it's easier to find a cheap hobby mechanic that you can trust to work on them.
DevelopmentSad2303@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F4i4nhqqj18wc1.jpeg
This report covers what people spent in the last year on their vehicles by brand and age.
You should be expecting a certain amount per year based on miles. But your basically going to have a set cost per year of ownership with some variance.
From my personal experience, that report is a pretty good representation of what I paid per year ont current ford. Some models are going to be cheaper or more expensive per make, but on average you can expect this
Smart_History4444@reddit
For German cars I think diy wise anything $3k plus a year is alot.
IMO you can’t really compare Toyota to bmw.
Toyotas are reliable because they aren’t trying to chase the max power they can out of a 4L or 3L engine. Whereas bmw prioritize that more. So one is going to be more unreliable than the other.
SuperDabMan@reddit (OP)
Thanks, you might be the first person to give a dollar amount. And that's pretty much my maintenance cost but in CAD... which is only $2k usd.
Smart_History4444@reddit
Always forget the currency. Just assuming every one is American lol. I meant $3k cad as well as
Sea_Statistician_312@reddit
It's all relative, man. Maintenance is parts + labor. Then everyone has a different level of "expensive" as well.
The lowest maintenance cost cars are going to be the ones that are most reliable regardless of brand. My old BMW Wagon with the N52 engine was dead reliable and costs very little in maintenance. My kids BMW SAV with the N20 engine, yikes, that thing is a pos (and 5 years newer), had a hell of a time with it.
Bottom line is owning a car that doesn't need work all the time which involves actually researching your purchase, looking up dependability ratings, "that one thing" that XYZ model has that is an issue (think Porsche IMS bearing).
nicholasktu@reddit
Sometimes it's like gas vs diesel costs. While a diesel will run longer with fewer repairs than a gas motor, when it does need repair it's expensive.
Sunny1-5@reddit
I can just say this, based on my own experience with owning an older BMW (2011 model, 119k miles), the next repair I have on it will be done by me. If I can’t do it, I’m putting it into neutral and pushing it into the Gulf of Mexico. That’s about a mile. It’s flat here.
trotsky1947@reddit
I think of it as annual cost of everything before gas. Ex. I put a new exhaust and headers on my truck last year and will get timing belt done next year, but my annual cost of ownership is like $2500 including that so who cares.
warumistsiekrumm@reddit
I had a c class with 7.4 quart capacity. Oil changes were pricey.
skinisblackmetallic@reddit
Calculate the average maintenance costs for all vehicles of that year of manufacture. Calculate the maintenance cost of vehicle in question. Is it higher than the first number?
congteddymix@reddit
As a mechanic my thought on high maintenance cost are the cost of oil changes, tires, brakes or other wear items. Water pumps, starters and such to me fall under repairs not maintenance since you can have two of the exact same cars side by side and one may have a water pump, starter and wheel bearing done by 75k and the other may go it’s whole life with needing none of these, particularly when you start figuring in how each example is driven and used by the owner.
Now as far as stuff like oil changes and brakes chances are a BMW is going to have more expensive brake pads and filters then say a Chevy since Chevys are generally lower cost vehicles and are more prone to being parts bin(like a base work truck Silverado uses the same brake pads and oil filters as an Ltz trimmed version and the oil filter is probably the same on a Colorado) versus a BMW uses specific parts per model and is not as much a parts bin brand. Plus they charge you because luxury brand.
As for when to do regular maintenance I would do it by time/mileage and never equate it cost/miles driven. As for repair cost I would do it by value of vehicle at the time it needs the repair or how long it would take you to recoup those repair cost instead of buying a new vehicle. Unless your running a business and have fleet of vehicles then do cost/mileage since honestly you would have to take into account how long before that vehicle is making you money or downtime preventing your employee from making money for the company by not having the vehicle.
Special_Hope8053@reddit
The answer is that it varies. The core issue is maintenance itself. For a vehicle like BMW if you follow maintenance you won’t have to pay for major repairs. But there is sticker shock of replacing coolant system components as “maintenance”. Generally cars like Honda and Toyota you can loosely follow (or ignore) maintenance and not end up with major repairs needed. So it comes down to budget, if a $1000 in maintenance per year is too much then it’s too high.
InternetExploder87@reddit
I don't worry about maintenance,, I look at the maintenance costs of what I'm likely to spend per year, and judge based on that.
Repair costs are where I care more. Maintenance you can plan for, repairs are usually unexpected, so those are the ones that are more likely to hurt you
Sands43@reddit
There's a scale here for expectations and use cases.
Personally - I drive to work 55 miles one way, three days a week. So I want a car that is quiet and comfortable at freeway speeds and has some reserve power. So a civic or base camery isn't going to work. The consequence is an upper end car. I've dropped around $2k to refresh the suspension and will need a timing belt soon. Which has been the only "fix" i've needed so far.
Those costs are part of the deal that I get when I drive a car that has L2 freeway systems and lets me relax on the drive. A quiet, comfortable ride where I can listen to music with intelligibility at low volume levels. These are prices I'm willing to pay.
I'm sure other people will have other trade offs for their needs. Tradesman? Short city commute? Northern New England winters?