User explains why they fax between offices

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wrathslayer@reddit

The user isn’t wrong. I have a couple customers that still do this for the same reason. It’s just easier, especially when actual signatures are needed. The are both lawyers so there is lots of paperwork. It was a bit of a hassle with one customer because they switched to IP phones about 6 years ago because of phone company issues and I needed a special adapter from the IP phone provider to make the fax machines work. I really wanted a better solution but nothing is really easier.

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

rather than me scanning it and creating an email telling him there is a pdf waiting for him

Am I missing something? Can't he just email the document rather than email someone telling them that there's a document somewhere? Whether he's faxing or scanning, he's putting the document down the same chute. Just send the scan to the guy who's expecting the fax.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

User 1 has a signed document that needs to go to user 2 at remote office.

User 1 puts document in fax machine
User 1 presses button for remote office
User 2 sees the printed fax and grabs it for filing.

I honestly don't think any other option is simpler.

User 1 puts document in copier
User 1 presses button to scan to pdf.
User 1 goes back to desk, opens Outlook, creates email to User 2 informing them about document.
User 2 sees email.
User 2 browses to shared folder.
User 2 opens pdf/prints pdf.
User 2 gets printed pdf from printer for filing.

I was thinking perhaps a way to scan to printer that way no faxing and phone line is needed but I don't think that's an option on any copier. I could script it - scan to folder, a script monitors the folder then prints the pdf to a specific printer - but that's not as simple as the faxing option. It's unnecessary added complexity.

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prodigalOne@reddit

Why not just have the user print to the other guys printer?

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NoNamesLeft600@reddit

This is how it works in our office -

User 1 puts document in copier
User 1 presses button to scan to email, selects recipient from address book
User 2 receives an email with document attached

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Does user 2 then have to print that document to file it away? If so it's now more steps than just faxing it.

Not saying it's the best method - but it is fewer steps and simpler.

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narcissisadmin@reddit

Why would user2 need to keep a copy of it when user1 has the original?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Regulatory reasons I'm sure. I have no doubt user 1 and user 2 have asked the same question.

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NoNamesLeft600@reddit

In the end, with IT it's all about what the business wants. If the business wants fax lines, then they shall have fax lines. At my organization I went to leadership and showed then how much money we were spending annually on analog phone lines for fax machines. I then presented them the alternatives to faxing. For those few instances where faxing was absolutely necessary, we want with an eFax service, which was far cheaper than we were paying for those phone lines. The business made the decision, not IT. It is our job to provide them with the information they need to make the decisions though.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Agreed.

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narcissisadmin@reddit

You're dishonestly convoluting the steps for sending a PDF. Any copier can directly email a PDF, no need to put it on a share.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That's fair. I'll adjust the steps.

User 1 puts document in copier
User 1 presses button to scan to pdf.
User 1 goes back to desk, opens Outlook, creates email to User 2 informing them about document.
User 2 sees email.
User 2 opens the pdf (i don't recall there being an option to print an attachment without opening it)
User 2 prints pdf.
User 2 gets printed pdf from printer for filing.

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

How about:

User 1 puts document in fax machine, but chooses scan instead of fax
User 1 chooses User 2 as scan recipient and presses button
User 2 prints attachment and files it

Or are these those little fax machines and that's all they do?

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MogaPurple@reddit

Would be nice, if we have a standard way for #2, but all MFPs do things differently, and (in my opinion) in a stone-age half-assed way, UX-wise.

There are variying levels of obstacles, depending on the infra of the org and the type of MFP (I only worked with small ones), like MFP not finding the PC, or it does the scan, but the app does not pop up and it is lost in oblivion, or opens in some other email client than the default, or whatever else you can imagine... At the end, we ended up just initiating the scan on the PC instead, into a known-where-will-it-land folder and attached it manually to an email, also with a make-sense filename when we are at it.

Undoubtedly, faxing were more streamlined, UX-wise. But I am not advocating - luckily it is quite dead now. 😄

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They're all in one copiers at both ends.

This would work if the goal was to get rid of faxing but faxing isn't going away any time soon because there are still a lot of places that communicate with it. So as it stands your method works but it's more steps because User 2 has to open it, and print it, rather than it already being printed.

And playing devil's advocate - user 2 gets so many emails he misses this particular email and it doesn't get filed, whereas with a fax it's physically sitting there on the fax machine and he can't miss it.

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whocaresjustneedone@reddit

You save a modicum of effort for the first copy this way. But if there's ever need for a second copy now it's the more complicated method. If user 2 loses/ruins their copy using email method they can just print out another copy of that contract user 1 sent over last week. Doing it the fax method they have to reach out to user 1, user 1 has to stop what they're doing, dig up the document, and send the fax over again.

Immediately less efficient.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

But I'd bet that's only happened once in the past few years. So one time (i'll be gracious and say a dozen times) out of literally thousands over the years - the user is going to choose to continue with their current method.

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whocaresjustneedone@reddit

There's only one time over the course of several years someone who deals in physical documents all the time has ever needed a second copy of anything? Finding that a bit hard to believe

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I was gracious and said maybe a dozen times. :)

i don't know the actual numbers. whatever they are it's not enough for the user to think "if we had a pdf copy of these we could reprint anytime we wanted - let's start doing that."

what can I do? i'm not the one dealing with it so in the end it's not my decision.

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whocaresjustneedone@reddit

So.....what's the point of this post?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

My initial post? To start a conversation.

I was amazed that I had a user give a good reason for faxing. And I had no other suggestion to make the process easier. We all like to complain "it's 2025 why are we still faxing??" - we've been saying that since the early 2000s. In every case of faxing that I've dealt with I've always been able to suggest a better method. But not this time.

I found it fascinating and thought others would too.

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AmazedSpoke@reddit

"faxing isn't going away soon", proceeds to choose using fax internally. The cycle continues.

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mrdeadsniper@reddit

You have combined multiple steps into step 3.

Original step 3 involves picking up a paper and filling, it, your step 3 involves clicking some buttons THEN picking up a paper and filing it.

I hate fax machines, but as far as work required, they can be the most efficient.

Granted in your version, step 3 would create a copy in his email as well so that if he ever needed to search for a scan he could potentially do that fairly easily (provided the scanner was setup to OCR before emailing)

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

Original step 3 involves picking up a paper and filling, it, your step 3 involves clicking some buttons THEN picking up a paper and filing it.

Are you one of the Bob's?

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mrdeadsniper@reddit

Nah just want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples, lots of situations I have found where it seems their solution is absurd, however the "proper" solution is more work. If you don't have someone in a position of authority that cares about the benefits of the proper solution, it can be an uphill battle.

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dustinduse@reddit

I’ve seen this method used a lot for this kind of work load. Scan to email directly to the user who needed it.

I’ve also seen people use network folders as inboxes, so each remote office has a folder named inbox and if you want to scan a document to them you scan it to their inbox.

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

I have done this for one of the engineering floors, wrote a script that keeps an index of file hashes in a Sqlite file, if a new file shows up in a particular share, they'll get a pop up notification on their screen, and they love it.

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dustinduse@reddit

That’s not a half bad idea. I never used hashes for that kind of task though, is there an advantage over a native folder monitor?

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

is there an advantage over a native folder monitor?

My hobby is writing foss security related software, and my first reaction to anything is to use hashes :) This also puts my mind at ease knowing that regardless of name or whether a file has been removed and then put back, only a unique file will trigger the notification.

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dustinduse@reddit

Makes sense, my typical implementation would trigger any time the file is touched. Though I’ve never built anything for your exact use case. I’ll have to explore that in a few projects for sure!

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

Yeah that's what I was talking about, a file can be touched without being changed or edited, and you can touch a file without changing the hash.

A funny little thing, I have an entry in my file explorer context menu that'll bring up a dialog to enter a time / date, which then touches the file with the new information, or just a generic "now" touch if I don't enter anything. I have found it handy to quickly be able to change timestamps, don't ask my why :)

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dustinduse@reddit

Of course. I’ve just never needed to verify a file was indeed edited vs just touched. In your case I see the reasoning. I’ll have to play around with it in some of my test programs. I built lots of internal automation utilities so I’m sure it’ll come in handy.

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BloodFeastMan@reddit

It sounds like we're quite similar, I have a plethora of gadgets that I've written for myself to make life easier :)

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AmazedSpoke@reddit

If there is a shared folder, I presume there is a traversable network connection between the locations.

Option 4. Connect User 2's printer to User 1's computer. User 1 e-signs the PDF and prints it to User 2's printer.

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jmbpiano@reddit

Step 3 is slightly more complicated, than it appears though.

Your typical MFP can scan a document straight to the user's email, but what they'll get is a randomly named PDF file attached to an email that offers no context of what the attachment is and likely with a From line showing the device rather than any information about who scanned the document.

The user who receives it now has to blindly trust that this attachment is non-malicious, open it up to see what it is and then print it out.

With the fax machine, they can see exactly what it is as soon as it arrives and know how they'll need to action it without any additional cognitive load.

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screampuff@reddit

Where did the original document come from, why wasn’t it digital? If you are a FI are you not using Docusign?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They are in the process of putting in topaz touchscreens for just this purpose. it's been over a year now working with their software vendor to get it up and running. thankfully it's out of my hands.

to answer the question - it's a printed agreement, signed by a customer, that needs to be physically filed away at the main office. faxing it is the simplest method to get a physical copy sent over. maybe not the best - but it is the simplest.

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screampuff@reddit

Ah ok, I work for a FI (Credit Union). We use Docusign, even for in person meetings, and we have a document OCR and archival system that stores an authoritative digital copy in the app and all the contents in SQL fields for 10 years past the maturity date - our loan administration team works in this app and finalizes things.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They've been working on getting some topaz touchscreens going. i installed them over a year ago and they're still working through issues with their software vendor.

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Rzah@reddit

How about: User 1 Prints Digitally signed document to User 2's printer?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

This will most likely be the route they go once they implement digital signing. For now they have to print the agreement for the customer to physically sign.

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spaceman_sloth@reddit

User 1 puts document in copier

can you eliminate the part where there is a physical document in the first place? at some point it is being printed out to be signed, instead just sign it digitally and you save some steps

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Funny you mentioned this - they are actually in the process of getting some topaz touch screens going for just this purpose. it's been a long process with their software vendor working out some really odd quirks.

i'm sure they'll still have to print it out in the end but it would remove some paper from the process.

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dustinduse@reddit

We wrote our own software to interface with topaz pads, capture the signature, and file away the document to its digital home. All the user does from their app is tell it if the user wants their own copy or not.

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SteveJEO@reddit

Yeah, blame the law.

A fax is considered to be a legally submitable piece of evidence cos the transmission creates a 1:1 copy of the original doc with no intermediate storage or stages. As such the fax of the doc has the legal representation of the original doc.

Yeah, don't think about it too hard or it'll make your brain weird.

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1116574@reddit

I think auto printing somewhere else is a desired functionality that can't easily be replicated with email workfkow

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Double_Cheek9673@reddit

If it's law or healthcare, that's why. Those two disciplines have never embraced anything but paper. There is no digital signature system that they will accept.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That's not entirely true. I digitally sign a lot of things at the doctor. But i still also physically sign a lot too.

And this particular industry I'm dealing with is banking - but even then they're in the process of moving to digital it's just not going well with their software vendor. They've had some topaz touch screens installed for over a year now that still don't work.

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Double_Cheek9673@reddit

And yes, now that you mentioned that I do remember the last time I was in immediate care I signed my "permission to treat" electronically. I think that's a funny document because why else would I be there?

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rtuite81@reddit

The Crux of the problem has become apparent. They still have to file a printed copy. It is ludicrous that anybody is still using paper.

Digital signatures are still just as legally binding as anything else. There is no excuse, it's just laziness and unwillingness to learn anything new on the part of the Business Leaders that still do things this way.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Or the governing regulatory agencies.

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rtuite81@reddit

Same as laziness IMO. If they have too much red tape to allow for efficient progress and adoption of superior processes and technologies, then their own laziness in addressing the issue or moving the changes along is the problem. There is no universe where fax is better. It's highly insecure (transmitting unencrypted, plaintext data over analog media), slow, and wasteful of both time and resources.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Yet here we are - and faxing it better for the user than any other solution.

It's highly insecure (transmitting unencrypted, plaintext data over analog media), slow, and wasteful of both time and resources.

I don't disagree. Maybe one day the powers that be will come to the same conclusion.

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d3rpderp@reddit

They could print to pdf on a shared drive and everyone would be happier.

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1TallTXn@reddit

Unless they're wanting a physical copy to file, which it sounds like, then they'd be far less happy with solution.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That is exactly the case.

User 1 isn't printing the document only to then fax it. User 1 prints the document because it has to be signed with a physical pen. User 2 needs a copy of that signed document. Faxing it is faster with fewer steps for both of them.

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wintremute@reddit

Let me guess... Something having to do with healthcare?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Financial industry.

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Mr_ToDo@reddit

That one has always been weird

I did books for a while and that meant the occasional wire transfer. I could do that 20 times and each time they'd change their mind on just how they'd want it. Fax, email, fax with phone confirmation, they were very inventive. I'm not quite sure what if any guide they were following there.

I mean other then the times they wanted to talk to the signing authorities it would have been pretty trivial to fake the process, and even that it isn't like they keep voice prints on file, it's just you never know if they're going to ask a security question or some such.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That's how I feel when my wife makes me stop at Starbucks to order something. No matter how i say it to them they repeat it back to me in a different order. Almost like it's on purpose to make me feel stupid. :)

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StudioDroid@reddit

They repeat it in the order it is in the pos. I learned the order for my order and life is easier.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I don't know - I feel like no matter how i say it they repeat it back to me differently. i have noticed that the older baristas (40 and up... MAYBE 35 and up) aren't so condescending in their tone. "You think you're better than me???" LOL

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tgp1994@reddit

The second of the unholy trinity, the third being legal.

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whythehellnote@reddit

Dunno, fax feels a bit modern for legal.

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StudioDroid@reddit

That is what the good lord put bike messengers in this world for. That and Neverending amusement.

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Exotic-Escape@reddit

During a business transaction we did during the lockdowns, we actually had to fly an original document to Mexico to get ink signatures from one of our officers, with a notary in witness at the embassy, and then fly it back to complete the deal. Due to the nature of the document it was considered cash equivalent and subject to taxation if we couriered it. Fax and digital were out of the question. It was technically of questionable legality to even bring it in to Mexico without declaring it at the airport.

Legal is weird.

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matthewstinar@reddit

Syngrafii claims their LongPen product is a workaround for this, though I've yet to hear an independent legal opinion. The idea is a person signs on one end and a robotic pen applies a matching wet ink signature on the other end. It's a weird but interesting idea.

https://iinkedsign.com/us/en/features/longpen

https://youtu.be/-_Tekziy4Nw

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zyeborm@reddit

Hmmmm, there's a whole bunch of 3d printers that are some firmware and a print away from being able to do this lol

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chromebaloney@reddit

I 've been in health care and banking, I tell my friends if I can get on with a defense company I would have the Axis of Evil resume!

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6-mana-6-6-trampler@reddit

Not much better.

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koshka91@reddit

I worked in finance and never saw a fax. Maybe country difference

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Admin4CIG@reddit

u/koshka91, from where are you? I work in the finance industry, I work in US, and I have a fax machine. There are institutions that will not accept any order from anywhere except fax.

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koshka91@reddit

US. It wasn’t a branch bank. But office floors with traders

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Admin4CIG@reddit

I work in an investment management firm. So, we deal in stock market for retirement accounts. Kind of similar to yours since you have traders.

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WechTreck@reddit

Being increasingly similar these days

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DrunkenGolfer@reddit

Ah, yes. The ever present yet anachronous requirement for “wet ink” signatures.

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Tech_Veggies@reddit

Hey! I'm in healthcare! You're lucky I don't know your fax number or I would give you a peace of my mind.

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pIantainchipsaredank@reddit

Fuck me

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lordkemosabe@reddit

I mean usually all you have to do is ask but this hardly seems the appropriate time

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Wynter_born@reddit

If they're in healthcare IT, they don't even have to ask. We get fucked all the time.

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tell_her_a_story@reddit

Can confirm. The waste I see every day at work would boggle minds outside healthcare IT and government.

Shipped out a $17,000 monitor as part of a workstation costing about $27,000 today. Administration wanted it sent via two day air. When it arrives we have to fly a licensed medical physicist out to inspect it before the doc can use it. Physicist can't fly out til the 14th but by God the hardware must be sent today.

However, I'm not permitted to be issued both a laptop and a desktop despite being hybrid for the last 5 years. My director must sign off on my decision to pick one or the other.

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Compustand@reddit

Ss you pick a laptop and add a dock and two monitors.

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tell_her_a_story@reddit

They won't provide a dock and monitors with the laptop.

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Compustand@reddit

Boo! A sock is almost essential in todays business world.

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Defconx19@reddit

Eh I could kind of see wanting to get it there ASAP if they're flying someone out to certify it. Probably worried if there is a delay in shipping for some reason they'll have wasted resources flying the person out.

Though a 2 week window is a bit excessive to worry about getting it the next day I agree, but I like 1/4 get what they're getting at.

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upnorth77@reddit

It's true, you know.

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1cec0ld@reddit

Not with that attitude

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Mr_ToDo@reddit

Don't fuck on the copier/fax. You'll break it and they'll make me deal with it

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Eatmyass1776@reddit

Giggles while in pain guess who's medical and spent time tracking down fax lines to their walls today? Funny story, had a user comment after I fixed the fax machine that it makes the same noise that AOL used to make, to which I answered: yeah, same technology. User: oh? Just the modern version? Me: no. Same. Technology.

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Defconx19@reddit

My favorite from being in health and human services?

"I'm not able to receive faxes half the day!" People say they can get them through!

I check the fax history and see multiple 200+ page fax transmits every day... The thing was spending all day trying to send the egregiously large faxes. That was definitely a teaching moment.

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NaturalIdiocy@reddit

The user: well I will submit a ticket for Fax v2.0, we should probably upgrade.

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Taikunman@reddit

Healthcare checking in. 400+ active fax machines across the org, thankfully I don't directly support them.

We're starting to look into going efax and there are solutions that offer the same or better user experience without the need for an analogue line.

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Velas22@reddit

You could (maybe should) set up an automated analog to this analog nightmare...

Dedicated scanner that auto-saves to a dedicated network path.

Automation on remote end that monitors this folder and prints anything it find and deletes (or better - archives) the scanned file.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

If the fax line ever goes away i imagine this is exactly what i'll do.

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BuckToofBucky@reddit

Then someone gets paid to scan the faxes documents in

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

The intern that walks around flapping their arms so the motion sensor lights stay on could probably do it.

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Layer7Admin@reddit

I'd be tempted to put a printer in the other guy's office. Guy A prints to the printer in guy B's office.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

User 1 isn't printing the document only to then fax it. User 1 prints the document because it has to be signed. User 2 needs a copy of that signed document. Faxing it is faster with fewer steps for both of them.

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IAdminTheLaw@reddit

Submitted for your disapproval:

Screenshot
Paste into Word or Paint.
Print
Markup with pen.
Scan to gray scale PDF. So much fucking JPEG loss you wish it was a fax.
Email PDF

I receive about three of these per year from different people.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

DISAPPROVED!!!

LOL

Honestly - for me if that's the easiest way for the user to show me what they want done - alright then. It's not my time that's being spent doing it. The problem is the low quality scan they send back. You're spot on - it would be a grayscale scan at the lowest possible setting. Sometimes I wonder if the user even bothered to close the lid on the flatbed.

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1TallTXn@reddit

Requested a screenshot of an issue and had this process done to receive it. We, IT, about died laughing at the effort they went to to do it.

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jaggardos@reddit

You must remember above all else: newer technology only exists because the company that develops and sells it wants to make more money. You don't have to use it. Just because a system is technologically superior, doesn't mean it's making the job any easier for the end user.

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Primer50@reddit

I had a user take a screen shot , printed it out then scanned it to herself then emailed it to me . So I think you're still going better than some of us.

It blew her mind when I showed her how to print to PDF ...gotta love the financial sector. We still do a lot of faxing even with e-sign .

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doofusdog@reddit

I got rid of the fax machine after 15years. When we finally went with a VOIP phone system..

I got the log out of it that showed only the ancient admin person ordering stationery that way.

2 pencils A 1b5

Etc

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niamulsmh@reddit

Since the offices are connected, why not ip phone? That way they can still fax, can't they?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Probably could do that but why add extra complexity when the current setup works and has worked for over a decade or more?

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niamulsmh@reddit

It would eliminate reliance on phone lines. Add more to you portfolio though, might be helpful in the future; you could become the phone guy.

Fax so gets used a lot surprisingly, all the things they said fits the reasons perfectly

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btc909@reddit

How about a shared / network personal printer sitting at your co-workers desk?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I know i didn't specify this in the OP (I had no clue it would garner this much attention) but it's an all in one copier. It's been so long since i've seen a standalone fax machine i just always assume fax=all in one copier/printer.

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xabrol@reddit

The solution is not to have a printed resource in the first place. It was digital when they made it but why did it get printed out?

Docusign is a thing.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

One day maybe.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

Configure a scanner in their area to scan, save the file, then print it in the other office.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Not a bad idea. But now there's another piece of hardware involved (they already have an all in one copier with a built in fax - and even in 2025 they still have customers and other businesses that they fax with so it isn't going away), and something has to handle the process of getting that scan to the other printer so it's added complexity and something else that could break.

It would work, and I'd do something just like that if the goal was to get rid of faxing - but sadly that's not the goal.

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Affectionate_Ad_3722@reddit

"goal was to get rid of faxing"

Yeah, it absolutely is. Sending a fax is equivalent to writing it on stone tablets.

Does your company sell poor quality copper by any chance?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I'm not arguing against it being a goal that a company should have. It's just not the goal of this particular company.

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Affectionate_Ad_3722@reddit

Attach a shredder to the recipient printer and you have a perfect business case!

Seriously, what you wrote is a piece of [confectionary metaphor] to set up.

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Superb_Raccoon@reddit

I was of course joking, as the whole thing is just so... kudgey

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SpaceGuy1968@reddit

Anything interfacing with the government probably needs a fax

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EmergencyOrdinary987@reddit

Just give them printer access between offices. Even dedicate one to “faxes.” Cheaper and higher quality.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Is it cheaper though? They already have the all in one copiers at both ends. And they already have access to both from both offices.

Faxing isn't going away anytime soon as they communicate via fax with other places on a daily basis.

And putting the already printed and physically signed document into the fax machine and hitting a button, having it print out at the other end ready to be filed is faster than scanning to pdf, emailing the pdf or printing the pdf to the other office.

Lot of saved time when they do this dozens of times a day over many years.

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EmergencyOrdinary987@reddit

Yep, it sure is. Use the MFP on each end and instead of a fax destination, have a network storage destination, then a rule on a machine somewhere to print all new documents that arrive in the folder to the MFP. Now you have a scan AND a “fax” in one step.

You now don’t need your POTS lines at either location, and you can use a fax server in the cloud to get both physical and digital copies of documents in a single step for incoming faxes.

The other benefit is it makes it easier and more natural for them to migrate to digital only in the future.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That would be a valid method should they ever choose to get rid of their fax line. I'm guessing they'll have moved to digital signatures before that ever happens though.

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swallen62@reddit

Why does the user's coworker need a hard copy sitting in a file cabinet?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

[reasons]

i honestly think they're valid reasons but I don't know what they are. It's out of my scope of work.

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SmallAppendixEnergy@reddit

I’ve seen this in banking, for some legal reason faxes are valid and pdf files are not. Don’t even try to start talking about digital signatures and more. My credo is simple, users ask for it, management signed off on budget and solution and I deploy and support. There are many ways that lead to Rome.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Very true.

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Kapoli0@reddit

Paperless should be law by now

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anomalous_cowherd@reddit

It would be slightly simpler if they had shared printers as well as a shared drive, so local user could print on remote printer. Even better if the printers have an ID card system so only the intended recipient can collect it.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It feels like it'd be simpler but it's not. Your process add more steps and takes longer.

It's already printed because it had to be physically signed. So with that in mind there's nothing more simple for them than pressing a button on one machine, and having it print out at another machine, ready for someone to pick up and physically file away.

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narcissisadmin@reddit

You can literally press a button on a copier to email a document to someone.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

But now the user at the remote office has to see the email, open the attachment, and print it. With faxing it's already printed.

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anomalous_cowherd@reddit

Ah, I was thinking it needed to get signed at the far end. If it has to be signed first then yeah fax is simpler.

Now, about the wet signatures which are then faxed...

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narcissisadmin@reddit

It's easier to fax the signed documents

It's actually easier to sign a PDF with a picture of your signature and email that along.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They can't do that yet. Topaz touchscreens are in the works but for now it's print and sign.

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Reedy_Whisper_45@reddit

Oof. You could put a scanner on each desk and grant them access to the other's printer. Scan the document and print to achieve the same result. With the appropriate software & workflow, it could be as simple as one button and one click (or double-click). You could also efile at the same time.

There - I can argue against the fax line for that use case.

Of course we still have 3 of the silly things here. For one or two customers. But we're on the way out. My mission for the year.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I wouldn't say you've argued against the fax line - you've just provided a somewhat equivalent method. To me arguing against is giving a reason not to use it. The only reason I can find to not use it is that the quality of a fax isn't as good as a scanner - but for them the quality isn't a problem.

And in your scenario you've now added another piece of hardware to this person's small tiny desk ("Why can't I use the copier that we already have?") - along with two more cables to have to deal with in addition to the cables for their barcode scanner, receipt printer, check scanner, credit card reader, desk phone, keyboard and mouse because they hate replacing batteries, their speakers, and their headset charger.

Do you see what you've done??? :)

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wrt-wtf-@reddit

Give them MFD’s and set them up to print from scan over the network.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I'm not sure this is an option. They have a Konica Minolta 4000i at both ends. If it's possible to do I'd love to know how.

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alexandreracine@reddit

rather than me scanning it and creating an email telling him there is a pdf waiting for him,

Where is the scan to email (pdf) function?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It exists - but then it's an extra step for the user at the main office. They have to see the email, open the attachment, then print it out.

With the way they're doing it now the document is automatically printed out at the main office ready to be picked up and filed.

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thekeeebz@reddit

Print to a remote printer in the opposing office?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

The document is already printed because it had to be signed by a customer.

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gatornatortater@reddit

Functionally that is what the "user" is doing... but just using the fax protocol instead.

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JulietPapaPapa@reddit

Hopefully not a stupid question: we are talking about inkjet faxes and not thermal paper faxes, right?

Because on the 2000's i worked in a company and people still used archived faxes as "documents", specially for signed proposals / contracts.

A few years later when a dispute with a customer became litigious, that's when they found out that thermal paper faxes erase themselves completely after a few months / years on storage.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

All in one Konica Minolta copiers.

That's hilarious about the thermal paper. And frustrating - I like to save my movie tickets but for quite a while now AMC spits out thermal receipts and they're starting to fade. :/

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TinderSubThrowAway@reddit

New sub? r/shittyuserpractices

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

is it crappy though? i know i don't like it - but is that just because i hate faxes so much? the practice they're doing accomplishes their goal in the easiest and simplest way possible.

man i hate it so much! :)

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TinderSubThrowAway@reddit

Fax for this purpose is obscene, put a scanner on their desk if you have to.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

But that's more steps for the user. It's adding complexity where it's not necessary.

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TinderSubThrowAway@reddit

The real problem is that it's being printed in the first place and then filed.

Also, you don't need a fax machine for this, remote offices should be connected, which means you could just have them send it to a printer at their co-worker's desk.

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slick8086@reddit

"the fax machine is sitting in my co-workers office.

WTAF.

Why aren't you using fax software and a laser printer?

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-online-fax-services

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I guess I should have been more specific - it's not just a fax machine. It's an all in one. I haven't seen a standalone fax machine in so long I'm just used to them being all in ones.

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Deadpool2715@reddit

Couldn't you just network the printer in the coworkers office and let the original user print directly to it? I understand it's not much different that fax over ethernet at that point, but it is at least more modern and flexible in terms of implementation (more network capable printers than fax capable ones IMO)

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

The document is already printed as it had to be signed by a customer.

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hosalabad@reddit

I had a user with a fax machine that receives faxes for another user that moved somewhere else and left their old fax machine behind. The second user got a new fax machine and number, so the first person just faxes everything that comes in to the second person. The way people work when they get around on their own is insane.

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Turak64@reddit

If you've got Adobe pro licences, then you have Adobe sign already. Integrates into the approvals app in Teams and couldn't be eaiser.

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PAL720576@reddit

I discovered we are still paying for a fax to email service at work. No one even knew we had a fax line still and the number is not listed anywhere on our website. Who knows when the last fax was received

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DeadStockWalking@reddit

Why the hell are they printing and filing anything in 2025? Is it for wet signatures or is it a broken business process that technology could fix?

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No_Needleworker_2199@reddit

Company I work for does a lot of work local governments - towns/cities. Most of these clients require that both of us have physical copies of everything. I've seen the sales people with binders holding 800+ page contracts 🤮 The waste is nauseating.

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Defconx19@reddit

Don't forget RFP's and RFQ's that require it be printed in triplicate on 60% or more recycled paper with the ream wrapping included to prove it is or the RFP will not be accepted!

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trail-g62Bim@reddit

So many old laws out there. I know we have some things in my state that still require certain documents be faxed.

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insufficient_funds@reddit

those old regulations requiring paper copies are going to stay there until we get the technophobic boomers out of government.

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zorinlynx@reddit

I mean, I kind of get it?

I'm glad I have the physical paper deed to my house. I'd feel a bit concerned if the proof of ownership of my home were a digital document on a server somewhere that can be messed with.

"Oh your deed is fraudulent; we have no proof the previous owner signed it."

Yeah, no. Here's the notarized physical copy they actually signed.

Does EVERYTHING need to have a physical copy? No. But there's a few things out there that I understand why people want them.

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gonewild9676@reddit

Until your house burns down and the paper copy is gone.

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rdqsr@reddit

Until your house burns down and the paper copy is gone.

To be fair given that most regular users don't bother keeping backups of files on their computers, or backups of recovery keys for their cloud and email accounts (for 2fa password resets), I doubt it'd really make a difference.

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pdp10@reddit

If you had to choose between a paper copy and a digital copy, you'd want the digital, because it's nearly trivial to backup for BC/DR.

Also, land titles are a special and complicated case in some Common Law jurisdictions, hence the existence of title insurance. We should probably avoid applying the needs of land titles to other fields.

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Mr_ToDo@reddit

I mean sure. But that's only as good as actually doing that.

I've had people "lose" digital files for the dumbest reasons, unless a good system is in place I'm very much a physical first sort of person.

I know that's horrible to say in sysadmin but I like to start from a position where the data is safe and far to often with things like ill planned scanned file projects they end up being tossed at some point.

Now if they want to let me/us plan out a proper system to do that then sure, I'm on board. I'd love to do away with all their boxes or at least give them a nice, organized, digital backup.

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lordjedi@reddit

For those few things, it's fine.

Need a physical copy of every work order, with work instructions, and signed off documents? That's just dumb, especially when a digital signature was applied to all those signed off documents. At that point, everything you're printing started off digitally and you're just wasting paper because some beauracrat can't be bothered to want to open a PDF.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

This is true. I remember in my younger more irresponsible days I was faulting on a loan. The bank sent me a copy of the agreement that I physically signed. There was something about seeing my physical signature on that document - it was so much more real. I felt the weight of real responsibility.

Much different than some digital signature that honestly could be manipulated in any number of ways after the fact.

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NightFire45@reddit

Digital signatures should lock the document from any type of tampering. Also immutability systems exist to stop changes. I could easy change a printed document.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Sure but typically when you sign a document you get a copy of it, and those copies can be compared for accuracy and tampering. Yes you can still tamper with it then argue about the authenticity and what the original looked like etc etc, but for most instances there isn't going to be any real argument with physical copies.

With a digital signature I would only feel confident in them if I was given the hash of the final document. I've never been given the hash or a copy of any digital document i've signed.

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LordWolke@reddit

My rule of thumb (for private use): if it’s an official document (ownership of house, car, your degree, whatever, everything with a government stamp on it), scan it, put it on your server and keep the original document. If it’s something good to have but not necessarily needed physically by law, scan it and shred the original. That way I was able to get down from 10 full binders to one, which got like 30 single sheets of paper in it.

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insufficient_funds@reddit

I agree with that; there will always be a need to print some things.

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bingblangblong@reddit

I agree, but the sales guys here print out every. single. email. Every legit email is printed and filed.

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ohiocodernumerouno@reddit

It's true. They only keep it because they have the power to say they are not learning anything new.

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KnowledgeTransfer23@reddit

If it's less nauseating, the ink/toner is a waste but paper is renewable.

And if that's helping you at all, don't read the next part:

Old-growth forests are renewable only on the measure of centuries...

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Probably a broken business process. Some governing agency probably requires physical copies of things to be stored for X number of days. Their basements are filled with paper files.

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Happy_Kale888@reddit

Some governing agency probably requires physical copies of things to be stored for X number of days.

I am sure that is a myth that has been going on for years that no one has questioned and it is how "it has always been done"

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Defconx19@reddit

"OUR SOX AUDIT IN 2003 CAUSED US TO GET FINED 10K FOR NOT HAVING A PAPER COPY ON FILE"

No clue if that was a thing with SOX but it's usually the reasoning behind the process that no one ever decided to fact check let alone figuring out if it's an actual policy.

Municipalities do have to have physical copies of things though that are typically stored in an archive vault.

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dot19408@reddit

It's true, we do work for local, state, and federal agencies.

Local = don't care as long as we can present copies of documents.

State = They only accept paper copies. They will accept faxed documents, but not scanned documents. (This is changing, but dependent on the department and district of the agency)

Federal = 2019 they started accepting electronic documents, but only on new projects. Any projects started before 2019 will forever require paper documents.

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TaterSupreme@reddit

They will accept faxed documents, but not scanned documents

How could they tell if you faxed a scanned document (or even, how do they thing it gets shoved through the phone line without a scanner getting involved at some point?)

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TikBlang_AR@reddit

Because fax documents are received by certain protocols (digital to analog and analog to digital) and should have confirmation reports. In addition They should have a footer /header to show the identity of the endpoints and the date and time the documents are sent/received. A faxed document is not mailed. It is sent in the cloud/telco electronically as a tif.

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lordjedi@reddit

It's not a myth, it's just stupid, old agencies that typically have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world. As evidenced, the other reply even says Federal will only accept electronic documents on new projects. You can't scan anything from an older project and have that be acceptable. Why? Because they refuse to adapt.

The IRS is similar. A friend of mine keeps everything electronically. When he was audited, he produced all the electronic copies, but the auditor wanted it on paper. That's a monumental effort. Not sure what happened, but I think some supervisor entered the picture and cleared it all up (because printing all of it was dumb).

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BrainWaveCC@reddit

Probably a broken business process. Some governing agency probably requires physical copies of things to be stored for X number of days. Their basements are filled with paper files.

It's not a "broken business process" if they are, in fact, doing it for a regulatory reason...

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narcissisadmin@reddit

So it's a broken regulation then.

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admalledd@reddit

Yep, we have a few documents that spend 99% of their life pure digital, but once "done" are printed, signed, and archived for regulatory reasons.

Thankfully, we only have to archive most things for ~2 years so it doesn't pile up for infinity. (+ We keep the digital copies for ~5 years for legal reasons)

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Mr_ToDo@reddit

I've seen ones where it's, you can apply to destroy things after X years. Of course some people either don't know that they have to apply or just do it anyway and figure nobody cares. I mean nobody does care, well until they do and then it's all fire and brimstone.

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lordjedi@reddit

It's a "broken business process" if some regulatory agency demands it be stored on paper when it could easily be stored digitally and then printed when it's needed.

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BrainWaveCC@reddit

No, it's not. Just because a process is antiquated, doesn't mean it is broken.

So, no, that would not be a legitimate example of "broken business process".

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lordjedi@reddit

It literally would. This entire thread is filled with examples of businesses only doing it because regulators require a physical copy (of items that are largely always digital).

Regulators being the last to catch on are exactly what I would call a "broken business process".

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Fair enough.

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LonelyStonerGuy@reddit

Better than using the upper floors to store the papers. A family member works for a company that has their offices in an ancient building. The basement isn't sealed so nothing would be safe from water down there so they stored the old documents on the upper floor. After a few years, parts of the ceiling were drooping and chunks of plaster had fallen. It turns out paper is really heavy when you have a lot of it and the upper floor couldn't support the weight so they had to relocate everything to an off-site storage facility (storage unit).

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greet_the_sun@reddit

We had a medical customer who did the same thing but with PHYSICAL X RAY IMAGES in the attick of a one story building, which if you didn't know the xray film contains silver so is heavy as fuck. I was amazed that they never had any issues with the ceiling drooping like that before they moved out. And of course they never wanted to switch to a digital xray machine because of one stubborn dr.

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upnorth77@reddit

Wow, digital xrays were one technology the government never had to incentivize healthcare providers to go to because they were so obviously superior....and that was over 15 years ago.

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greet_the_sun@reddit

Even better, the Dr's entire reasoning was "if it needs to be used in a court case physical images are 'better' evidence". As far as I'm aware he had a single case he needed to provide evidence for in the clinics history. Same Dr let an MRI machine leak helium for like a month before the magnet quenched.

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tell_her_a_story@reddit

That's funny! We share imaging studies with other healthcare organizations via PowerShare for the most part, provide digital access to patients via Pockethealth integration with MyChart, but legal requests are still fulfilled by burning a CD/DVD. We have to buy external drives for our staff to validate the discs burned correctly because our PCs haven't shipped with internal drives for years.

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upnorth77@reddit

jeebus

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Unhappy_Clue701@reddit

Ha. That reminds me of a temp job I had before university, which means over 30 years ago now. The centralised x-ray stores for numerous regional hospitals were running out of room, so they hired a few people to pull out and dispose of every file that hadn’t had a new x-ray added to it for (I think) the previous ten years. Man oh man, was that a physical few weeks. Came out of there with arms like Popeye!! Some of the films dated back to the 1950s and were literally decomposing - they would just fall apart into layers if you tried to pick them up. They all got chucked in a skip and were taken to a special facility to recover the silver - which was worth a surprising amount.

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Geodude532@reddit

Also, aren't they highly flammable?

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EODdoUbleU@reddit

Old film made from nitrocellulose is, but modern film is either polyester or cellulose-acetate so no.

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matthewstinar@reddit

Somewhere I heard of a city or county government office that had to relocate because their paper files reached the maximum load bearing capacity of the building's floor.

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SoonerMedic72@reddit

This famously happened at the VA. Their records department in DC had to hire contractors to reinforce the floors because they were at the breaking point.

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Ordinary-Yam-757@reddit

My hospital has an entire section of a building specifically built for paper medical records. That's why they were an early adopter of EMR... Which brings us to today and our 2-year-long Epic migration that will replace over 80 existing systems.

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SoonerMedic72@reddit

The hospital I worked at used Epic. It was pretty nice, but I was a medic so the EMS EHR I was used to were pretty terrible.

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David511us@reddit

Many moons ago I worked for one of the larger auto manufacturers and had a rotation in the legal department (back when they had an active project to scan documents and put them on optical disks using Wang, which gives you an idea of how many moons ago this was...)

But they had literally tons of documents in file cabinets, and a number of full-time (contract) people just to make photo copies for discovery. The building inspector came by once and was horrified about how much everything weighed (it was an upper floor) and immediately required the top drawers of every filing cabinet emptied...

This was explained to me during my orientation tour, where my host also pointed out that in the year since then, not only had they put papers back in all the top drawers (they ran out of space), but they had stacks of papers on top of every filing cabinet...

I actually was traveling last year and in that area, and the building was still standing, so I guess nothing really bad happened...

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flummox1234@reddit

work for a library. can confirm

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whythehellnote@reddit

Paper is denser than water, if you wouldn't put a swimming pool there, don't store paper there.

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soulless_ape@reddit

I worked at a NOC where the had to reinforce the floor with metal plates from military emergency landing field segments from the weight of tape back in storage.

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Dal90@reddit

an off-site storage facility

Mid-90s working at an insurance company. Off site warehouse. Know the warehouse at the end of Indiana Jones? Same deal, except with bankers boxes.

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eaglevision93@reddit

Wet signature required ≠ broken business process

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I agree. Not the best choice of words.

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squirrel8296@reddit

Being required to keep physical copies of documents because of broken business practices is a huge issue. A few years ago I temped at a non-medical home healthcare agency and it was ridiculous how inefficient the process was to send anything to Medicare, Medicaid, and most insurance companies. The process was:

Billing person had to print anything out on a dedicated printer in their office instead of using the main networked copier that everyone else used (the billing person used the main networked copier for everything else, their office printer was just used for this single purpose).
Billing person walked the files to the front desk person.
Front desk person then stamped said documents with a physical ink stamp noting the date they were sent.
Font desk person then walked the stack of printed paper files to the networked copier to scan everything as individual documents.
Individual documents were then send one by one as a fax via Ring Central.
Front desk person then filed the papers away in a filing cabinet under their desk organized by date.
Once files were so many months old (I want to say a year) they were moved from the front desk filing cabinet to a set of different filing cabinets in a hallway organized by date.
After so many years, the files could then be removed from the hallway file cabinets and destroyed (if the person was no longer a client) or filed away in long term storage based on person (if they were still a client).

It was a horrible process that was super inefficient and could easily have been consolidated if they could have used a digital stamp and only kept the digital versions of the files, but instead they had to keep both the digital versions and the paper versions.

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Internet-of-cruft@reddit

There's nothing wrong with having physical copies of documents.

If they're truly filing it away, it is 100% resistant to encryption ware.

Then it becomes a physical security problem, which equally applies to having files on a file server.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I do agree. I was just thinking of this one specific case that it's a broken business process which in the end I think they just do this purely out of convenience.

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lordjedi@reddit

Exactly this.

If you're doing it properly, you don't have to worry about it getting ransomed (because you're backing it up to an offsite source, right?). Physically securing the area is just as important, so that doesn't change.

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ananix@reddit

I never understood why documents even exist in the first place for the past 30years.

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lordjedi@reddit

I worked at a place that was kinda like this. Customer had a requirement that copies had to be stored indefinitely. I asked "Does it have to be physical?". No one could ever answer. I kept thinking "Scan all that stuff and store it digitally, then shred the paperwork".

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baslisks@reddit

I wonder if theres a way to automate filling banker's boxes and having them auto fill with an index on top that has all of whats in it. get your stored paper documents and only have to put away a box every unit of time.

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Smoking-Posing@reddit

Even still, it sounds like they're printing docs to physically sign them themselves, and if that's the case then digital signatures sounds like a viable solution to eliminating steps and saving money on printing, storage, file-keeping, etc

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RoboNerdOK@reddit

Believe it or not, many places around the world still use telegrams for official business. Mostly because the telegraph companies serve as neutral third parties that can timestamp, authenticate, and archive transactions. They don’t use the old wires though; the actual transmission is done via the internet or telex.

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soulless_ape@reddit

I have had to use telegrams in the past while living abroad to notify I vacated an apartment, when I rented or when I quit from a job or accepted another.

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tarlane1@reddit

This brings back memories. I worked for a company that made software to help Dr.s keep their credentials up to date right when some of the laws were finally allowing records to be kept electronically. The company literally owned an airplane hangar to store records in because things had to be printed as part of the process but then couldn't be destroyed.

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FauxReal@reddit

That's how it is here. In case someone sues for negligence we can provide hard paper copies proving that proper procedure was followed.

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pnlrogue1@reddit

Ah so when a fire breaks out upstairs, all the water from the fire can pour down into the archives and doubly screw then business

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Otto-Korrect@reddit

I deal with document retention issues at work (banking). Most agencies will now consider an archived copy the official document if it is immutable, but if you do have a paper copy that is what you must present for any legal uses.

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wild-hectare@reddit

yes digital signatures are great, but not free and definitely not cheaper than the fax machine

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narcissisadmin@reddit

If the PDF software requires the paid version to save your changes then just print to PDF instead.

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TheDarthSnarf@reddit

When dealing with a bunch of government agencies, Fax is considered a secure transmission method via their applicable regulations. Many agencies simply don't have a secure document portal, and email is pretty much always considered insecure and disallowed for anything including PII or other sensitive data.

Thus you end up with the options of Faxing, or physically sending it via postal mail.

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narcissisadmin@reddit

Thus you end up with the options of Faxing, or physically sending it via postal mail.

Regulatory bullshit at its best. If you can't do it securely digitally then just do it insecurely analoguely (probably not even a word?)

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Wooden-Map-6449@reddit

Maybe for security, because I can’t think of another good reason. Russia and China have a hard time hacking into filing cabinets.

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traumalt@reddit

Faxes are sent over unencrypted analog phone lines though, they ain’t got no security.

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narcissisadmin@reddit

But oh shit if you send an unencrypted email with PHI in it...

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lazylion_ca@reddit

hard time hacking into filing cabinets

True, but it's on the file share.

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Nonaveragemonkey@reddit

I dunno, wasn't there some government official in NY get busted for ties to Chinese government agencies? Not hard to imagine they also scanned documents and threw them at their contacts

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NightFire45@reddit

Also no way to audit someone pulling a physical file and copying. I'm actually a bit shocked how anti-tech this thread is.

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Nonaveragemonkey@reddit

Right? And closest you can get to an audit for access is maybe if there's access control to the given room, which is possible but with NY I have my doubts, and I doubt there'd be something as granular as even the filing cabinet.

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NightFire45@reddit

Granularity would be the issue. Employee accessed the room but what exactly was accessed/copied/deleted? Security footage can help but is much more labour intensive than pulling a full audit log of what exactly that employee was doing.

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mkosmo@reddit

Given that human assets have been doing that kind of intelligence work since the dawn of man, they'd still be able to get it if it was that important. Your coworker's filing cabinet likely doesn't have anything they're terribly interested in, though.

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Dan_706@reddit

That’s the kind of data they’re relying on WoT forums for lol

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berryer@reddit

Faxes have a lot of existing case law, specific legal carveouts (e.g. HIPAA), and the like

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OldschoolSysadmin@reddit

TIL the phrase “wet signatures” and I love it. Thank you human.

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Skullpuck@reddit

You'd be surprised at how much state government is behind with this type of stuff. You may also be surprised that it doesn't matter to state government that you have both a physical copy and a digital copy. It's just redundancy for redundancy's sake.

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bk2947@reddit

How do you fax a wet signature?

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Sintobus@reddit

I've worked places in the last few years that do require 10 years of storage on most documents. While they have digital storage a hard copy-often the original is never lost.

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mrlinkwii@reddit

Why the hell are they printing and filing anything in 2025

some companies are legally required to thats why

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jake04-20@reddit

Lol's in manufacturing 😅😭

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Coffee_Ops@reddit

Because computers are horrible and we would be better off if we went back to pure paper files.

I used to say this ironically but it feels increasingly real.

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UnstableConstruction@reddit

Records retention. Many industries require non-editable retention of records. It can be done with write-one-read-many drives (optical WORM disks), but a filing cabinet is waaay cheaper.

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floatingby493@reddit

I work in government and paper copies and filing are super duper important. If a printer goes down all hell breaks loose.

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Doublestack00@reddit

The only thing that requires a wet signature anymore that I'm aware of is the final closing in real estate.

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rubs_tshirts@reddit

I ask this same question to my accounting department every few months... They don't have to, but they're convinced it needs to be done because... something about if audited they'll need it in print... I tell them I doubt you do, but you can always print if requested and they say "but this way it's already printed"... shoot me

[-]

MMEnter@reddit

Rough working environments, nothing beats a per when you have to work in a mine, basement, remote location, chemical plant or high security facility

[-]

ABotelho23@reddit

Job security. Changing business processes risks pissing people off.

[-]

Dsavant@reddit

Depending on industry, faxing/printing/filing is still a process and it blows ass.

If you have to interact with Healthcare or any government work, there's a solid chance they only accept fax, and require x years of retention.

Yes, this typically includes rightfax being acceptable. No, I don't understand it either lol

[-]

totmacher12000@reddit

Most companies and gov agency's have to have a hard copy for 3-5 years.

[-]

illicITparameters@reddit

Might be regulatory.

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jleahul@reddit

I have managers on the 6th floor that fax their work orders to the operations staff on the 1st floor. I've suggested saving paper by just putting it in the elevator and sending it down, but they didn't like that idea.

Bring back pneumatic tubes!

[-]

Informal_Drawing@reddit

Cheaper to fold each page into a paper plane and throw it out the window for them to catch it.

[-]

grnrngr@reddit

Traditional Faxing (^*) does the following:

It does not create a second original copy. The original document remains at the source.
It is not susceptible to man-in-the-middle interceptions.
It is not at risk of payload corruption.
It provides a reliable time-authenticated proof of delivery.
It is accepted as a transmission for legal purposes, owing to the above.

^* "Traditional faxing" would involves POTS and not Fax-over-IP.

[-]

narcissisadmin@reddit

2) Of course it is 3) Of course it is 4) You mean the fax machine prints the time that you've set it to

[-]

CalligrapherNo870@reddit

2 yes it is. 3 yes it is, it's called line noise. 4 no it doesn't there is no protocol to sync the 2 fax clocks, I've seen a lot of documents received in 1973 in the 80's, I don't know why 1973 in particular, it just was..

[-]

SuddenVegetable8801@reddit

I mean #2 and #3 are just false. Traditional faxes over analog phone lines can ABSOLUTELY be intercepted. Slap a butt set on the line and you can record the fax tone and recreate the image (fax_decode https://www.soft-switch.org/downloads/spandsp/) And faxes can absolutely have their payload corrupted by sources of electrical or magnetic interference. Probably extremely strong sources, but the physics are absolutely legitimate.

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grnrngr@reddit

Traditional faxes over analog phone lines can ABSOLUTELY be intercepted.

Yes it can.

But it requires physical intervention.

Like you literally just described.

Which makes it a lot more difficult to do, logistically-speaking.

There's a reason Faxes still exist, and it's not for Luddite reasons.

[-]

Personal_Wall4280@reddit

Does it require physical intervention?

Salt Typhoon in December saw Chinese hackers get into the telecom systems including texts and phone lines remotely due to ISPs not upgrading their equipment when vulnerabilities were found or the equipment went out of support.

If they have data of phone lines, getting fax info is trivial.

[-]

grnrngr@reddit

OP mentioned installing taps on lines and a convoluted series of steps needed to intercept a fax transmission. Assuming you know the fax you're looking for and the lines on which it will transmit.

Your response is to say, "well, anything can be hacked, so it's inherently insecure.". Which is true of EVERYTHING. Even common encryption protocols can be hacked. It's just a question of approach and power.

And as you yourself said, Salt Typhoon happened due to outdated equipment. This is an admission that the mechanism itself is rather secure. It's the people that make the problem.

So in short, your response doesn't invalidate mine. If anything, it helps prove it.

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Personal_Wall4280@reddit

No, that is not what my response is saying.

You mentioned that interception of fax requires physical access. This is no longer true. That statement needs to be corrected.

The salt typhoon attack compromised monitoring systems that are hooked onto the analog lines too. For example, wiretap warrant devices used by the authorities. If they have access to the analogy lines and can listen in to calls, they had access to people's fax transmissions too. These attacks on the US was immensely widespread affecting entire telecoms and went on for possibly months before discovery. A lot of information was likely taken from this event including fax transmissions.

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SuddenVegetable8801@reddit

Physical intervention? Yes of course. Its analog.

Maybe that fax line is the only POTS line going into the building. In that case you don’t even need to get inside. Rent a cherry picker truck, get some power company magnets to slap on the side, then grab a hard hat and a high vis vest.

And if the fax machine IS inside? Social engineer my way into the front door with a “Copy Pro” button down shirt from ETSY for $10 and put what looks like a ferrite bead on the POTS line and capture/transmit data, and then say I brought the wrong toner cartridge and Ill send someone else back with it this week? Receptionists usually sit near the front entrance, and usually the fax machine is nearby. It’s almost trivial.

This is very much a “locks keep honest people out” kind of thing. You can’t think about “casual access” when talking about the security of fax. Fax is trivial to compromise if you are looking to do so.

[-]

MogaPurple@reddit

Well, depends on the country, but in some, accessing a telephone line wasn't quite rocket science back then. I haven't tried, but I can't see what obstacle you could have had: a lot of simple overhead wires on poles collected into rusty junction boxes on the streets barely held closed by a piece of wire instead of a padlock or some other lock (if not wide-open already by some vandalism)...

Sure, it was better protected for govt or high-level entities, but we are talking about faxing site2site in a seemingly ordinary company.

Digitally-signed documents are infinitely more secure than any fax, but just a manually-signed 300 DPI color scanned or photographed paper is far more secure in my opinon than a pixelated B/W copy from an unknown source.

I fail to see why couldn't you forge a fax either. Caller ID wasn't reliable or existent at all, so is the printed timestamp, which originated from the RTC of the receiver machine, which, well, khmmm... was set at all on like 1 out of every 20 machines I came across.

So, out of the points u/grnrngr listed above, only #5 is why everyone used it to transfer legal documents.

[-]

rufus_xavier_sr@reddit

Are you one of the advisors to our clueless octogenarian lawmakers that keep HIPAA in the dark ages?

[-]

grnrngr@reddit

I'm one of the advisors to people who want a solution that "just works."

Sometimes - just sometimes - an old idea remains relevant. Sometimes - just sometimes - not everything has to be turned into SaaS or require MFA or a Titan key or what-have-you.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

What's funny is I don't think any of those reasons are why they are faxing these documents - for them it's just easier to fax.

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admlshake@reddit

We have the opposite problem. We have users that will scan in the document to their email from the copy machine, f***ing e-fax it through outlook to someone with a perfectly valid mailbox, where they THEN EFAX IT TO THEIR FREAKING FAX MACHINE at their desk/office. And they absolutely will not change how they are doing it. Their manager doesn't care how wasteful this is. She says "it works for them, so I won't tell them to stop."

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They're the best aren't they. I love asking for a screenshot, and receiving a word document with the screenshot in it, and the screenshot is now so compressed and small i can't read it.

Also had a user who would print out a page from their website, mark it up with changes they wanted, scan it, attach it to word doc, and send me that word doc. LOL

[-]

narcissisadmin@reddit

THIS. Why the hell don't the Office apps make it easy to restore the embedded image to its original size?

[-]

FatalSky@reddit

That’s old mementos of an ancient email filter kicking in they dealt with in the past. We still have to do that to bypass the attachment getting stripped. Ive sent a lot of gnp’s, piz’s and gepj’s though!

[-]

flummox1234@reddit

TBF this just tells me they're old because at one time that was the only sane way to do a screenshot on Windows in the ol' days. Granted this was like win3.11 for workgroups 90s but still. Printscreen kind of sucked early on for Windows.

[-]

dreniarb@reddit (OP)

You're right. I do remember the days when it wasn't just a simple matter of prtscn, ctrl-v into an email. In fact a lot of mail clients couldn't do html emails. And the user usually found it easier to paste into a word document than into something like paint. plus with word you could then click file, send as email.

And yeah, most users that do this today are in their late 40s. I dont think anyone younger would do it this way.

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flummox1234@reddit

the ol' learn once repeat forever.

TBH this type of behavious is why I think Linux would be so good in most workplaces from a user perspective. Granted the initial learning curve would be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth but once learned, if you stay on that window manager, e.g. KDE, it ain't changing in the next decade or so. 🤣

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NetworkingJesus@reddit

I encountered an entire department at a health insurance company that would print documents, then use the scan-to-email function any time they need to send someone a document. I discovered it when scan-to-email stopped working on that printer. Got a bunch of blank stares when I asked why they don't just send the original file as an email attachment.

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nostril_spiders@reddit

Be honest. You're not angry because it's wasteful. You're angry because it's stupid.

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Vassago81@reddit

I've had slightly worst.

People in an office were printing, reordering pages and then FAXING document to the expedition department in the same office, because it was easier for them that reordering the page using the computer.

Hundreds of thousands of page every month on that printer

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AlexisFR@reddit

Makes sense to me, with how garbage most form of PDF signing is, I'm not surprised using a fax machine is way faster.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They're in the process of installing topaz touch screens for digital signing. it's crazy how complex it has been getting it working with their software. it's completely out of my hands and i'm glad for that.

i'll be very interested to hear their thoughts once it is working. I bet there will be some who still prefer to print and do physical signatures rather than dealing with the touchscreens.

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flummox1234@reddit

having worked with PDF forms in a previous dev job. Adobe can go straight to hell for unleashing that "open but not quite open" format upon the world.

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mouse6502@reddit

Adobe can go straight to hell for a lot of reasons, but PDF was designed for printing, never editing or signing, those are use cases forced upon it.

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eaglebtc@reddit

And Topaz are STILL decades old tech!

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altodor@reddit

God, as someone with a long name and shitty penmanship I prefer paper most of the time because I'll touch all four edges of those fucking things.

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LikesBreakfast@reddit

It might be useful to abbreviate parts of your name. There's nothing that says it has to be your full legal name, or even your name at all. I sign F. Lastname

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cydev@reddit

yep I just write my initials on those things

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altodor@reddit

Unless it's some legal thing I actually tend to just sign something like ッ because it doesn't matter. There just isn't enough vertical room on the topaz things to do it, nor can I see where I've written to go back and do vertical modifiers in the first place.

[-]

hornethacker97@reddit

Fix topaz drivers is all I can say

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forgotmapasswrd86@reddit

I hate topaz with such a passion. It's too dependent on how the organization wants to install the device.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

The basic use of it is working - document is on the screen, user can scribble their signature. The problem seems to come with their finance software getting that document or signature into the right place. Something like that - i don't really know. It's been over a year now and it still doesn't work right for them.

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XxsrorrimxX@reddit

Oh god

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narcissisadmin@reddit

I've been using Foxit to put my signature on documents for over a decade.

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caa_admin@reddit

how garbage most form of PDF signing is

We have to keep in mind PDF spec wasn't designed to do this originally. PDF spec is 32 years old.

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thebrianguy@reddit

I always find a font that looks cursive and sign PDFs that way. No one has ever said anything.

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narcissisadmin@reddit

Ugh I worked at a place that used a FaxFinder appliance and we started having lots of busy signal issues, turns out there were some departmental responsibility changes so group A had started faxing many of their incoming documents to group B, tying up two lines in the process each time.

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Creative-Dust5701@reddit

a signed FAX’ed document is legally the same as the original in the US Legal system. so while FAX goes back to the french semaphore system in the 1700’s its still relevant today.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Incredible isn't it? What other old tech is still "better/simpler" than something newer?

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Creative-Dust5701@reddit

Landline telephone using TDM has built in quality of service

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Creative-Dust5701@reddit

None recently, people confuse complexity with ‘improvement’ while most of the time its simply an increase in complexity

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Ice-Cream-Poop@reddit

People are still faxing things in 2025?! Jeez they probably still do their payroll out if a paper notebook as well.

Please just stay late one night and rip that fax out of the wall and just say nothing. Let them figure it out.

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MisterBazz@reddit

"Office has committed to a reduced-paper-waste initiative and any faxes will only be used for absolute critical need where no other paperless communication process exists."

Seriously, that is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

[-]

scoldog@reddit

"You'll see a paperless toilet before you see a paperless office." Some wise man.

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skyhawk85u@reddit

Uh, I have a bidet installed on every toilet in my house and cabin… 🤣

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scoldog@reddit

Well oh lay de dah, Mr French Man!

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jnkinct@reddit

It's not ridiculous for certain workflows. If you need to handle 10+ signed documents a day, faxing is a LOT simpler than scanning/emailing/opening etc.

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MisterBazz@reddit

You....you know digital signatures exist right? I mean, we are 25 years into the 21st century. We have self-driving cars and AI is going to enslave us all....yet you think faxing is still the most effective means of communication?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Yep. I wanted so bad to argue with the user and insist that I had a better way but I was speechless. After a few seconds I just said "I hate it but I can't argue with that."

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Every night their printer spits out hundreds of pages - all the various transactions that happened that day. It then gets filed away in the basement. It's someone's job to make sure the printer has a full tray of paper before they go home.

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dustinduse@reddit

You need to convince these people that the chances they will ever need that paper is less then 20%. You also need to explain that if they ever do, they can print it when needed, just save it to a backed up file share.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

If I was more than an outside IT contractor I would try to go that route. But as it stands they already know what a waste it is - I'm sure it's a governing regulation that they have to adhere to.

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dustinduse@reddit

So wasteful….. I can’t complain I still have clients that print 200+ pages a day just to verify the number on the last page looks correct and then they shred them. Couldn’t convince them they only needed to scroll to the bottom of the fucking PDF that opens instead of printing it and waiting for the last page to check the number printed at the very last line.

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CommsBoss-87@reddit

Are you messaging from the 80s 😆? But as a former IT Manager for a government agency, I’ve witnessed the CFO print a 300 page report say “oh I forgot to change X setting” and throw the printout in the shred box more than a few times.

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russellhurren@reddit

I had a guest house who would fill in the guest register by hand, type it into Excel every evening, print it out and fax it to the accountant in the office.

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LForbesIam@reddit

Fax is also reasonably secure unlike email.

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koshka91@reddit

The source of all evil is not having a PDF reader. This cascades down to all these decisions

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ImaginaryTradition31@reddit

Reminds me of one of our consultants, who was very busy and traveling all the time. He had his secretary retrieve all of his voicemails and transcribe them into emails, so he could "read" his voicemail on the plane.

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-Copenhagen@reddit

I am guessing this is in the country that still thinks checks are a pretty neat thing?

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WeAllGoTo10011101@reddit

Wait....my pager is ringing.....

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Adium@reddit

This idea isn’t really true anymore, unless you know both ends of the chain have traditional fax machines. But a fax gets printed immediately with no saved copy anywhere making it more secure than any other methods, and a very small chain of custody to track.

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NorthsideHippy@reddit

I take screenshots of photos on my phone to share them with other people instead of saving the photo itself and sending that. I make sure to include the entire phone screen just to frustrate a friend of mine.

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gatornatortater@reddit

you're frustrating strangers on reddit as well

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Iceman_B@reddit

Are faces sent to printers directly?

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fuknthrowaway1@reddit

Years ago I was involved in a cubicle move and had two users extremely worried about their ancient fax machines and personal printers. While the concern was weird enough there was more strangeness to it, including the fact they were the only 'personal' versions in the department.

I wanted to understand why they were there and maybe I could help them do their work better, so I started asking questions. Had they tried efax? They had, it was great. Do you folks do a lot of work with annotated contracts? No, never, they're both sales assistants. Would some nicer units be better? I mean, LaserJet II's and faxes that used thermal paper? Really? Oh, they're just what they were given, and they only use them occasionally.

"How many days a month is occasionally?", I asked, and finally discovered what they were for.

"Four or five, just the days Mark works from home."

They tell me that Mark, their boss, liked to ignore things. Send an email? He'd read it hours or days later. Leave a voice message? End of day, if you were lucky, but probably first thing the next morning.

But if there was a physical bit of paper in his inbox (or on his home fax), especially one with handwritten notes on it, it got dealt with immediately.

When I moved them I did three things; I replaced the antiques with new MFDs to save them a huge amount of desk space, I showed them how to mark up documents with their mouse to avoid print and fax situations, and I mapped Mark's home-office printer so they could print to it directly.

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dekkar@reddit

Hahaahah, make the fax more difficult to use!

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xrfr8@reddit

Sometimes the simplest (albeit ugly) solution is the best…

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

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BenderMurray@reddit

If they have a copier/scanner you could probably configure that to email the scan directly.

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Ok-Juggernaut-4698@reddit

If it allows the end user to actually do their job better, I'm all for it.

Many of us in this industry forget that our purpose is to make technology work for our end users.

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RamblinLamb@reddit

Imagine if all of business operated like this?! That would be a cluster fuck times a billion....

Toss the fax machine into a dumpster, then they'll realize the reality of how lame fax machines really are.

And WTF are they still using paper medical records?

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Phreakiture@reddit

You have landed squarely on the argument I've been making in defense of the humble fax machine for almost two decades. It's a corner case where the "new way" doesn't actually work better.

But most importantly, it is a corner case.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I've been racking my brain all day trying to think of another example of old tech that is still better today than modern alternatives - I just can't think of one. Particularly not one as old as faxing.

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Phreakiture@reddit

Well, the most common electric motor design is still one that was devised by none other than Nikola Tesla. It's called a three-phase induction motor.

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ennova2005@reddit

It's a very functional remote printer. It automates the analog to digital to analog process in one step

We should applaud a process that works for someone who needs to hold on to paper for a while for compliance.

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IanYates82@reddit

If they love that tactile paper and associated bit of noise (although no glorious modem handshake), could they not just print to the printer in the other office perhaps?

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stuartykins@reddit

I had a colleague who would print and then scan (as pdf) so she could email the document to people.

When I introduced her to printing/exporting as a pdf she said it was much quicker rather than waiting on the printing and scanning as they were slow... only for her to go back to printing and scanning, wasting paper and ink in the process!

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gregory92024@reddit

Smh

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heapsp@reddit

If you want to print something anyways because there is a compliance requirement to retain a physical copy, you skip that step with a fax machine. It makes sense. electronic signing has come a long way otherwise, they make apps for your phone where you can simply take pictures of everything and click sign and email it off for them to print as well. But thats licensing, apps, accounts, security issues with those accounts and email, etc.

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BadCatBehavior@reddit

The longer I work with computers the more I sympathize with people who prefer their work to be more tangible. I've actually switched back to physically jotting down notes and reminders in a notepad, and putting important events in a physical whiteboard calendar. There's something nice about being able to instantly access information just by looking at it, without having to fire up a computer or grabbing a phone/tablet and opening whatever app and potentially waiting for it to update.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I have a cork board on my wall that is filled with index cards. It's pretty satisfying to take one down and file it away as done and it's a good visual reminder of what i need to do.

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BadCatBehavior@reddit

That's a good idea, I should do that too. My job is an ever shifting mixture of systems/network admin stuff and tier 2/3 support, I have a hard time keeping all my million different projects and tasks organized haha

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Got the suggestion years ago from Robert Hummel on spiceworks. I'm nearly 30 years into IT as a professional and I'd still almost be willing to pay money out of my own pocket to go work for that guy and learn from him.

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EduRJBR@reddit

What would happen if the fax machine suddenly stopped working? Would the company replace it?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It's Konica Minolta copier at both ends - so yeah, they'd replace it. :)

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bloodguard@reddit

Take away their printers and give them tablets (with pens to sign stuff). If they balk show them all the studies about printer particulates and indoor air pollution.

We got rid of all printers except one per building. And they're all guarded by surly office admins that are going to tell you:

"No. You can't print 50 copies of your 20 page handout for a meeting where only three people will show up and all of them are going to ask for the link to the pdf version".

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

One printer per building. How I wish I had the authority to do that.

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bloodguard@reddit

You definitely need enthusiastic buy in from the top.

Once you show them how much you're paying for printer leases, maintenance and the reams of paper that pretty much go straight from the printer hopper into the recycle bin they get positively militant about it.

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Tymanthius@reddit

replace fax w/ a copier and print directly to copier. Copier can also rcv faxes.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

The document is already printed as it had to be physically signed. A physical copy is required at the main office. Thus, faxing it is the simplest and fastest option.

Digital signing is coming - it's just not working yet. So for now it's all physical.

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Tymanthius@reddit

Ah, I missed that it started as physical copy. NVM me!

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candidly1@reddit

Intra-office documents will always end up taking the path of least resistance. Years ago, a big brokerage firm found their people using FedEx to move intra-office mail. Why? They said the company mail department was taking 3-5 days to deliver stuff, even when marked "urgent". The company discovered it when their FedEx bill went up like 500% seemingly overnight.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That is hilarious!

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theamoeba@reddit

I miss fax machines, they were so wonderful... Actually all 90's tech was nice, not too much, just the right amount. No social media, no streaming. Wonderful, I miss it.

[-]

dreniarb@reddit (OP)

theamoeba@reddit

Oh wow! That brings back memories. Bzzz bzzz boop! Fans!

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lordjedi@reddit

Why not just email it directly from the scanner? Unless regulations prevent such thing.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It's not faster. The user at the other end needs a physical copy, not a digital one. Faxing prints the physical copy automatically.

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HobartTasmania@reddit

Might cost you

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/01/notorious-scan-to-email-patents-go-big-sue-coca-cola-and-dillards/

[-]

lordjedi@reddit

They basically got shutdown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPHJ_Technology_Investments

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STCycos@reddit

I used to deal with stuff like this. Once I put in papercut with scan to one drive/email. not any more. I guess I'm plugging papercut today. I am now about turn off over a hundred fax lines :) ewaste should be pretty epic this year.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

If someone high enough cared about the waste this would be the way to go. That's not this place though.

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duane11583@reddit

ask management why this business flow is required.

until you get that answer you are stuck

there might be legal requirements ie a signature etc

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

yep, it's sending signed documents that need to be physically processed and filed at the main office.

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duane11583@reddit

Then you have your answer

And you should put in budget money for this and lard it up With stuff to cover issues

[-]

dreniarb@reddit (OP)

If it was my decision I'd certainly try.

honestly, I know their goal is to go digital for signatures, it's been a long buggy process between their finance software and the topaz units they've installed.

So maybe one day. but for now this process of faxing is the simplest and fastest option for them.

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Matterom@reddit

Do they not have an address book on their scanner?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Yes. It has the fax number of the fax machine at the main office. :)

[-]

Fabulous_Cow_4714@reddit

2025 should be the year of the paperless office.

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Marquedien@reddit

So was 2005.

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LebronBackinCLE@reddit

I’m a big ol geek and I do on-site tech services. I use a clipboard and paper to track my appointments. Pathetic but just easy.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I used to be that way but I live and breathe by my phone - particularly for reminders. but i also constantly email my self notes about things.

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zer04ll@reddit

if it aint broke dont fix it this is why the fax was invented and why they should still be used!

[-]

ianpmurphy@reddit

Scan to folder? At least it would remove one half of the process

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It's already a physical document that was signed by someone. That's not going to change.

What half of the process would scan to folder remove?

[-]

SHAKEPAYER@reddit

I support healthcare and law office clients, Fax is the biggest ticket driver

e-fax or phone line, doesnt matter, always issues.

[-]

dreniarb@reddit (OP)

it's an odd relationship. as and IT admin I hate faxing. so so much.

But as an outside contractor i love it as it brings in money. so much money.

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groupwhere@reddit

This is what chat is for - place file, send message saying look HERE.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It's a physical document that was signed by customer. It's more steps to scan to computer, place file, send, say look here, then for the recipient to look there, open the file, print it, and file it away.

Fax send, fax receive, pickup and file away. It's easier for them. and I hate it. :)

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groupwhere@reddit

Can I interest you in a pneumatic tube system? Monorail?

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tdmsbn@reddit

Not everyone can be like we few.

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lazylion_ca@reddit

Can you map the printer in the remote office on the user computer?

Instead of printing to fax, it'll just print.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

they don't print to fax. it's a physical document that was signed by someone. and a physical copy of that physical document has to be filed at the main office. faxing it over is easier and quicker than scan to pdf and doing it via email, or scan to pdf and printing to a printer at the main office.

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JasonDJ@reddit

Why do you want to store a piece of paper? Ugh.

If the signature is that important, set up PDF signing. A million ways to do it and you don't have to get locked into Adobe.

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knucklegrumble@reddit

I guess it's called the "right tool for the job"... Even if it's an obsolete tool in the end

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TxTechnician@reddit

They have a broken business process.

But I totally get it whenever you're dealing with older clients who just will not change. It's way simpler just to conform to their small business process than it is to get them to change.

But I do it in ways that make it to where it works for both parties.

Your copy machines actually have the ability to send and receive emails.

Almost all major vendors support this. It's free and it's defaulted.

In order for this to work, the email account that you're using has to use pop and SMTP.

If you're using a vendor that is a little more modern, like, kyocera.

Then you can actually set up multiple receive addresses. You can set up to three different emails to check.

So the way that it works is that on your copier you set up SMTP send. And inside of your copier's address book, you add the email that you are going to be sending to that address book.

On the receiving side, you set up the pop email address.

So long as the scan type is PDF or is a picture. The copyer will automatically detect that the email has come in, that it has attachments, and it will print off the attachment for you.

This has the door benefit of... Having an electronic copy of the document that you sent as well as having it inside of your mail server and also having a physical paper copy being printed out.

If you have any questions about setting this stuff up, just hit me up in my DMs or something. I worked on cotton machines for like a decade plus, so I have no ridiculous amount about them.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That's a pretty decent idea. It's added complexity on the configuration side of things, and now a mail server is involved in the process rather than a fax line, but in the end it would be the same steps. Press button on copier 1, document prints out on copier 2.

I will definitely keep this in mind for the hopeful day when they want to get rid of the fax line.

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TxTechnician@reddit

If you end up doing it. I suggest using your own mail server. Mailu or MailCow installed in a docker container. Or buy a Synology NAS (cheap one will do) and use the Synology Mail Plus Server (inexpensisve and effective, you get 5 accounts for free, any account after that requires a perpetual license purchase per user).

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They have their own internal Mail Enable server. So we'd definitely go that route.

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mschuster91@reddit

The problem is, in my experience scan to mail is ... questionably complex from an UI perspective.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

i think the "scan to an email address that a copier monitors" is pretty simple. It's still just one press of a button on the copier which the user already does to send the fax, and the recipient copier monitors that email address and automatically prints any attachments which is just like printing a received fax.

It's added complexity on the configuration side. And a mail server is now required but those are pretty reliable.

The only thing I can think of that a user would argue against is confirmation - if a fax doesn't go through the fax machine will let the user know. And while no error after transmission isn't a 100% guarantee that the fax actually did print out at the other end the user can be pretty confident that it did. Whereas with scan to email the only thing the user can be confident of is that the email was sent. They can't know for sure that the copier at the other end has downloaded and printed that email.

Still - if faxing were to ever go away I think this is the method I would use.

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mschuster91@reddit

Quality is another big part. The previous user might have set the scan quality to b&w in 50 dpi or to full color in 1200 dpi, and you don't notice it before sending. Fax has exactly two options, b&w and color, and that's it.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That's a good point. I wonder if copiers have the option to set a scan quality to the address book button on the copier? Something to consider should things ever go that route.

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TxTechnician@reddit

They don't (Sharp might).

But the quality of an email scan is ALWAYS better than fax.

Actually almost lost a contract to a company because they "had the same problem with our expensive copiers as their cheap copiers had".

They were faxing (on green paper, which doesn't scan well) between locations.

I switched them to the method of email scan. And everything was clear as day. Faxing is such a massive PITA, I hate it.

There's a number of fax relay services. I got a hospital to adopt one a few years ago... the name of it escapes me. But they started using that instead.

It's a server, which is attached to a PTSN. But the way that it works is like this:

You send to the server with the url as the endpoint (fyi all copiers in the last 5 years have the ability to use a fax server, ill attach a pic) `{your_fax_number}:serverurl.com``

The address you send to is a regular phone number. But when you send via the fax server, the server captures the "send to" number. And routes the fax to that number from their server.

The server stores the fax doc electronically. And you can log in a view it at any time. There's a bunch of other options that they have, don't rememebr them all.

But there is no need for any extra hardware or anything. You just need a modern copier.

Screenshot:

https://www.kyoceradocumentsolutions.us/en/support/downloads.name-L3VzL2VuL21mcC9UQVNLQUxGQU1aNDAwMEk=.html#tab=document

Download the "Command Center RX" user guide to see the settings. I don't have a modern one at my office. But there is now a "Fax Server" item in the "Functions" settings menu.

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TxTechnician@reddit

Lol, OK man. Here is the UI perspective to send a fax and to send an email from my copier:

You put the person in the address book. And that's it.

FYI, each company has a tool you can use to mass deploy/copy/manage the copier's address book and settings.

For Kyocera that tool is Kyocera Net Viewer (free to use, just google it)

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spyhermit@reddit

if they're printing and filing things in 2025 they need to fix their business processes, not fax things.

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tunaman808@reddit

I sometimes help a neighbor's friend. She does the books for her husband's roofing company. This was.. 2008, maybe, and I can't remember the exact Rube Goldberg-type setup she had, but she wanted to fax and would: print the invoice from Word, then scan the paper copies into JPEGs (then throw the paper copies away), She'd convert the JPEGs to PDF before sending it her multi-function HP to fax it to the recipient.

Her desktop had a dial-up modem, so I plugged that in and installed Microsoft Fax and had her print directly to fax... and the poor lady almost started crying! "This is SO MUCH EASIER than the old setup! Why did my son set it up like that?"

I dunno Sandy, but I had your back then, and still have it now.

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Wishitweretru@reddit

The only esign process that isn’t totally broken is the simple ipad integration.

You could probably network the end users printer to do some of the OP issues, but they do call out that they have to scan it on the intake side… so… fax is easiest.

Maybe scan - goes to folder - folder action has drag-drop goes to remote printer (and/or e-archive). But, even then the fax has excellent fail detection.

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Case_Blue@reddit

Explain to them that the better way is to use pigeons post.

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wolfmann99@reddit

One fire later and they'd wish it was digitized and backed up.

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Carlos_Spicy_Weiner6@reddit

It baffles me how many people still use faxes. I've made a killing coming in and setting up analog lines (or VoIP with v.34) and getting offices setup to fax in-between.

When I ask why fax, I'm told a lot of the time for security; which is hella hard not to bust out laughing but whatever fax works and I need payment before I leave 🤣

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Potter3117@reddit

Makes sense. I bet that fax machine has, ironically, saved you a lot of trouble calls with people struggling in a shared storage pool somewhere.

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thecaramelbandit@reddit

I work in medicine. We use faxes a lot. The main reason is that fax machines send a document to a particular location. I can send a report or form to a physical spot in an office, and whoever is around can grab and deal with it. That's shockingly hard to do with email, where you have to send to a user or trust the office you're sending to to have some kind of shared inbox.

It's kind of infuriating but it does make sense in some contexts.

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TinderSubThrowAway@reddit

Or print to a printer in a particular location.

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thecaramelbandit@reddit

Faxes are typically used between different businesses, not within a single business. Most healthcare organizations have reasonable electronic records in-house at this point. The fax comes in when you need to send a clinic note to a hospital, for instance, or one hospital has to send records to another.

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BadCatBehavior@reddit

At my company it's pharmacies communicating drug and prescription info to our medical staff, many of whom don't have/need a user account or an email address

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alexwhit80@reddit

We have a user that prints off PDF invoices, scans them via email on an MFP to someone else at a remote office who prints it off to sign then they scan it back where she then prints off this scan to the MFP to then scan on to the document management software via her desktop scanner.

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pal251@reddit

I have a person that prints photos, scans them then puts them back into the record management system.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That's awesome. LOL

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chunkyfen@reddit

It kinda make sense if you have a physical copy you want to send electronically and except the recipient to also have a physical copy.

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entropic@reddit

Sounds perfectly reasonable if there is a physical storage requirement. Sounds like a good workflow for these two employees.

This is probably a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing for me, unless I started seeing it as a prevalent pattern throughout the organization, or an easy-to-implement business process fix.

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StaticFanatic3@reddit

Had user showing me her issues emailing out of quickbooks. Another user chimed in saying that’s why he bought his own printer and scanner for his office.

Yes he was printing the documents, scanning them, then emailing the PDFs.

Thank god I’ve moved on from there

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JamBandFan1996@reddit

I had a user "backing up" files by attaching them in an email and emailing to herself. She has sent hundreds of emails for this purpose when I found out. Nevermind that all the files were already on a network drive with redundancy in place

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

That would be a hard one to leave alone. But sometimes you just have to, right?

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they_call_me_dry@reddit

Meanwhile I'm saving every toilet paper tube for recycling....

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progenyofeniac@reddit

Haha, I had the same convo with people multiple times when I supported both fax machines and email. Offered them paperless solutions, scan to email, etc. But their argument was often that nothing was faster than typing 10 digits and hitting send.

The one thing I was able to get them to use was a scan to email, if I set common recipients as speed buttons and had the email system set to automatically encrypt mail outbound from that machine. Even then it was a struggle.

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MiningDave@reddit

Unless I missed it somewhere in the discussion, the main point of the workflow is it makes the person sending the fax not responsible for anything. I put the paper in, I hit send, I got the fax completed successfully printout. I'm done. Don't care if the other person reads it or not. Don't care about anything.

Scan to folder, scan to email, scan to whatever. Does not matter, there is always the chance for blowback.

I fax, I have receipt for completed fax, and a lot of fax machines will even put a small copy of the 1st page of the fax on the completed message. It's not my problem.

Never discount things like that.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Great point. Very possible and probably true for a lot of users. But I honestly think in this particular case it's just the fact that it's easier. And it's been working reliably for the past dozen or more years.

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Tainted_Abscess@reddit

We still have a fax machine. We use it one time year to fax a 4 page document to a low level government agency, because they only accept faxes.

That same agency then scans the fax to PDF and emails the PDF back to us with the edits.

WTF

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scratchfury@reddit

We had a similar thing eating our Duo phone credits. It was easier to hit speaker, any number, and hangup on office phone than to fish out smartphone or enter number from token.

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FlatusGiganticus@reddit

I have a user that insists on creating a report, exporting it to PDF, printing it, scanning it to email, and then forwarding it.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It sounds even more ridiculous when you type it out, doesn't it? LOL

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FlatusGiganticus@reddit

I've tried to help, but sometimes you just have to let them do what works for them. She is a sweet older lady, and this works for her, and her boss isn't worried about it.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Been there. Watching someone copy one cell at a time in a spreadsheet. Or swap back and forth between two windows on a single monitor - always denying the offer for two monitors like everyone else has.

They have their way of doing something so who am I to try to make them change?

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bi_polar2bear@reddit

This is why workflow and shared documents are a thing. Even the government uses PDF signatures only. Paper, ink, phone line, and admin costs for fax are expensive compared to existing infrastructure. There's zero arguments for paper in today's world. What if the paper is lost? What if someone needs a copy? When was it sent? When was it received, and by who? How do I find it? Those are not valid reasons, only excuses for 30 seconds of savings compared to the hours in the future looking for them.

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Haplo12345@reddit

I mean the user is right, for that scenario, but then the question is why are they needing to share a physical signed document in the first place.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

Regulatory requirements most likely. Out of my hands. If they come to me asking for suggestions I have plenty to offer.

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CatoDomine@reddit

You may not be able to simplify their process, but you could offer them an improvement in quality.
setup a scanner to 1-button scan to a remote printer!

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I can do that if quality is ever a concern.

But what scanner can scan and print to a remote printer?

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Dry_Inspection_4583@reddit

I don't support fax. Not since 2010, I refuse to, it's an arcane system that should have been retired a long time ago. There are several services available to allow for signing and storing, there's no excuse imo to continue to support. It's insecure in transit, doesn't meet compliance regulations, no audit trail... just no

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1d0m1n4t3@reddit

Tell me you aren't in medical IT with out telling me

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I agree with your stance but I like the money it brings in. :)

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SteveJEO@reddit

Faxing automatically creates a legal hard copy.

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beest02@reddit

I think Copiers can email things now. I could be mistaken but I recall doing this at a job about 15 years ago.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

But that's not the goal. The goal is a physical copy at the main office to be filed away. Yes you can scan it to email and the recipient can open it and print it, but faxing it is simpler and quicker.

I hate it. But I can't argue against it.

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beest02@reddit

I am hip; I was making fun of that part of the process as well. I ran IT for a Housing Authority, and they had the same antiquated process of being married to paper. It was maddening. The most common response I got when trying to change it each year... 'we have always done it this way'. hahaha

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TaliesinWI@reddit

This is like the purchasing department at an old job of mine literally passing around USB sticks to share files. I say the same thing - it's on the network drive. Yes, but then they have to go into the drive and find where it is. This way, it's the only file on the stick!

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KickDelicious9533@reddit

get a trial of Kofax/Tungsten Power PDF. It solved this kind of workflow for us. no more "print-sign-scan" nonsense

The interface is similar to word, users likes it.
The most usefull features are the multiple options for signing, in the interface form left to right from less secure (just an image inserted) to most secure (legal e-signing)

Also the typewritter, the ability to edit, insert pages, extract pages ,etc

After the trial, it would be easier to ask formally to buy. for us it was about 180$USD per licence + about 40$ yearly support.
Licences are lifetime, no subscription saas nonsense ! yearly support is facultative but get it as updates are important

You can purchase volume licences after a certain amount, which opens the possibility to create an administrative silent install package for all the users.

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First_Code_404@reddit

I don't think I have printed something off to sign, then scan for at least 10 years. Online document signing, like Docusign, has existed for quite a while now.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They are in the process of getting some topaz touchscreens in place. They're running into a lot of quirks with the software vendor. Out of my hands.

So until then, physical sign and fax is going to be the norm.

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Syzygy3D@reddit

In fact the user is right. However, an invested administrator could very easily create a single shortcut on the desktop to a batch file which scans a document to an image (easily scriptable with IrfanView) and creates an email with a pre-filled subject and body, where only an email address needs to be entered and the email sent. If the address is always the same, the email sending can be entirely automated. In the olden days, one of the programs for scripted email sending was blat, which probably doesn’t work with M365, but probably with SMTP2GO and the likes of it. Besides, I‘m sure that there are another similar programs to be found, without me knowing them.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

And if faxing wasn't an option something like this would be the direction to go. I'm more inclined to go with the suggestion from another person in this thread - emailing from copier1 to copier2 and copier2 automatically prints all attachments.

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snakebite75@reddit

The printers in my office have the corporate address book available to them. I can scan a document and email it all on one step.

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JohnBeamon@reddit

There are ways to sign PDFs. I've worked in both mortgage and insurance, way back in my past. There are some industries that have whole business models built around transmission confirmation reports and blue/black ink signatures. But few.

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bluegrassgazer@reddit

I had a nurse as a customer once who would travel between sites but need files. Instead of using a network drive, she would scan the document into email, email herself the document and check her email at the other location to get the file, then print it if she needed it. I discovered this when her "scan to email" feature in the HP software stopped working. I showed her how to scan into her personal network drive, instead and explained to her that, no matter where she logs in, that network drive will always be there. A couple of weeks later I overheard a conversation about another ticket from the same user having the same issue again. She never changed her workflow, despite it being incredibly inefficient.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

I get that. It's one of those things where you feel like you're helping the user out but in the end they don't have the ability or probably more likely they just don't have the desire to change.

I had a user that loved telling me how much faster his rolodex was vs looking up contacts on the computer. And for him - the rolodex probably was faster. Rather than arguing with the guy I'd just say "Yep, I can see that." and I'd keep on moving.

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PurpleFlerpy@reddit

Sometimes, users do know best. I'd make sure to keep a fax machine repair company number handy to keep their (admittedly old) workflow going.

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kona420@reddit

Tell that to the phone companies. The last copper line in america was installed several years ago now and the boxes they are using now don't properly support fax.

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HHH___@reddit

You can fax over IP

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lrdfrd1@reddit

Yea… I’m going to need those TPS reports by the end of the day, ok? Great, thanks.

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GaijinTanuki@reddit

Can you let the colleague print directly to the remote site printer? It'd save a phone call and keep all the traffic internal.

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

They're not printing then faxing. It's an already printed document that a customer has signed. So that signed document needs sent to the main office, processed, and filed.

In the end a physical copy is required at the main office, and faxing is the simplest method. I didn't say best.. but it is the simplest.

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GaijinTanuki@reddit

Ah, I see. Yeah I think they have pretty well optimised their work.

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BadSausageFactory@reddit

The fax meets spec, doesn't use storage space or bandwidth, it is secure, and the users understand the technology well enough to self-direct troubleshooting efforts.

hey who wants a story? yeah I know you do just like my users.

One of Edison's first inventions was a voting machine, which he demonstrated for Congress. A switch and two lights, yes/no, imagine how it will speed up your voting process! A simple light to show yay or nay!

They told him to throw it in the Potomac. Turns out the voting system involved lots of delay and time for last-minute deals in the cloakroom before going on the floor to vote. This sounded good on paper but would have screwed up the entire process if implemented.

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Natural-Tree-5107@reddit

Is it the same business just different offices? If they share a network drive can the original person just print directly to that printer?

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

It's an already printed document that a customer has signed. Otherwise yes, that would be the route they'd take.

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ambscout@reddit

Scan to email is a thing... Scan it to the email for the recipient

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

But then the recipient has to open it and print it. Yes it works but it's more steps. It's not as simple.

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mixermax@reddit

Does recipient’s printer support print from email? If yes, you could configure the printer with its own mailbox like recipientsprinter@yourcompany.com and set it to print everything it receives from whitelisted addresses. Then User 1 would just scan to printer’s email and User’s 2 printer automatically prints it.

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timsredditusername@reddit

Scan to email, sending it to the email address of the other MFC, which prints it automatically.

(I've just reinvented the fax machine)

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Break2FixIT@reddit

Am I broken enough to think that filing in a fire rated cabinet is actually safer from data breaches than digital...

Oh shift, sysadmin life has made me talk heresy

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iceph03nix@reddit

Make the fax number very public somewhere, get it on a spam list. See how long before they want it gone.

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kerosene31@reddit

Every once in awhile we get a random spam fax still (we have an MFD that is still hooked up to a phone line). We had to explain to the younger folks what was happening.

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iceph03nix@reddit

Had a similar conversation with a young office manager recently. They're one of our few still on a physical facility machine and line and she wanted to know how to stop the random ads being faxed to them.

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kerosene31@reddit

Pull the skinny wire out of the wall :)

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dreniarb@reddit (OP)

This is so... what's the word? Genius! Reminds me of the days where I'd come to the office to find a handful of vacation package offers sitting on our fax machine.

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Honky_Town@reddit

100k people in company we print a document to sign and send it per mail (physically).

User doesn't receive it so we print it again.

Scan it

Send the scann by mail (outlook)

User prints it

Signs it

Scanns it to send by by outlook mail

I received it and have no Access to Storageserver

So i print it out again

And scann it on our digitalication station where ist stored directly at the Storage server which was invented to save paper.

mfw this is daily practice and iam not allowed to do shits varying form above.

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No-Solid9108@reddit

The government requires you to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you have the original physical copy and in a lot of cases those physical copies have special requirements one of which is being personally created from scratch by a specific entity.

Then each copy shows it's relevance to the original by special codex so this is a built-in form of redundancy.

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cammontenger@reddit

Why would it drive you crazy? It doesn't affect you

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uselessInformation89@reddit

Haha, faxes will never go away. I just had a new client last week and they want to move into a new office. "The most important thing we need", the secretary said, "is a fax machine."

"Our owner is 92 and it's the only way of communication he knows and understands. But he just wants to work until he's 100 so we will switch to email 'soon'."