Airline pilots, how did you stop getting lost at massive airports?
Posted by UrnofShadows@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 128 comments
New FO here, currently in type rating with LTFM (Istanbul) as my home base.
Starting from LIFUS flight 1, captains expect me to lead all taxi instructions immediately after clearance. I can reference the AMM briefly, but staying heads-down isn’t an option.
Given how massive and intricate LTFM is, I need to lock in a method to internalize layout, flow, and hotspots, ideally something I can carry forward to other airports as well.
**For those who’ve been through this:**
How did you approach learning the airport environment starting out?
What habits, tricks, or tools helped you stay ahead of the airplane on the ground?
Looking back, is there something you wish you had known before your first taxi brief?
Or anything else you found useful during early line ops at complex and busy airports?
Appreciate any feedback.
runaround713@reddit
After landing, don't get into your flow until you've received your taxi clearance. As an FO, I've found that if I'm messing with flaps and switches my brain is not ready to receive complex taxi instructions. Delaying flap retraction by half a minute will not hurt anything, but missing important hold short instructions could be dangerous.
Also, flightaware has a feature called "airport experience" that shows the ground movements at some airports. If you are expecting to fly into a complex airport and have some time on the ground to watch how the airplanes flow around it could be helpful to you. Take this link for Chicago O'Hare as an example.
https://beta.flightaware.com/live/airport/KORD
Fresh_Ad3599@reddit
Oh, this rules. Thank you!
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
I do this if I know I’m going to be busy. I do like to kill the strobes once we’re off though. Not sure if that’s just a North America thing, but strobes on anywhere but the runway is a faux pas
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
Evitable_Conflict@reddit
Just be patient. My local airport has a rule of nose to the north for all pushbacks regardless of runway in use. I have an evil smile when I see newbies pushing towards the south if that is the active head...
P-51Mustang25@reddit
Don’t let LTFM scare you, taxi instructions are usually clear and concise. Here are my tips:
Flying out from LTFM:
1st: Preparation is the key and it starts on the ground. You are a LIFUS student so I suggest you to get to the terminal at least 1-2 hours before duty. You’ll know where your aircraft is or will be parked at on the ground. You can estimate which runway you’ll be taking off (via FlightPlan and A/C Location) Say, RWY 36. Open your FD Pro - TAXI - Dep RWY (3A, 3B, 3C). You can again estimate which departure procedure you’ll be given, mentally prepare for the taxi route you are expecting. Believe me, at this point you are 75% ready already.
2nd: Moment you get CLX via ACARS, you’ll know which runway for sure. Open FD Pro, check relevant taxi procedures IN ADVANCE.
3rd: Briefing. If you are PF, do NOT hesitate stating your expected taxi route to the Captain. He’ll know the base inside out, will also state his expectations. At this point we are almost 100% sure of the route and we haven’t even moved the A/C yet. We are also prepared for the alternatives since we’ve discussed it all.
4th: You know where you are standing. You can estimate how will you be lead to the procedure and you have the whole procedure, along with positioning on your Electronic Flight bag. Request taxi clearance, copy it on paper. Unsure? Ask the Captain. Get a consensus in the cockpit. Still not 100% sure? Do not ever hesitate saying “say again”. Again, LTFM is very understanding.
5th: Step by step direct/assist your Captain, always check your surroundings, aircraft speed and restrictions.
To LTFM:
For other airports:
Again, same advice. Mentally prepare in advance. At LIFUS level I’d say at least a day before. Read all reference charts for any preferred runways, frequency management, etc. talk to your friends who went there for expected parking information, discuss with your Captain during approach briefing.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
JasonThree@reddit
I would not recommend typing it in the fmc scratchpad until you are really quick at typing on there, because after 2 years on a boeing cdu and another year on a Embraer cdu I still get lost in the keyboard occasionally since it's not qwerty. And when they give a bunch of taxiways in quick succession writing it on a sheet of printer paper is faster. If you are on a boeing they give you a clip on the yoke and a pen holder for a reason. On FD pro you can draw the taxi route on the AMM or 10-9, I don't draw it except for labeling closed taxiways and runways but if it helps, trace it after you wrote the clearance down.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
mottledmirror@reddit
It'll get better. In the military I used to write it down. Not a option in the airlines, On an Airbus MCDU you can get quite good at typing the clearance for example "exit vv hold short A = vv/a into MCDU
JasonThree@reddit
Not an option on an airbus? With a giant tray table? On a 737 that yoke clip can hold a iPad pro for God's sake. I think it can hold the weight of me writing a couple letters down with a pen. I mean it has a pen holder for a reason.
yyzywg12@reddit
Why’s it not an option at an airline?I fly a 737 and it’s our sop to write all taxi instructions down
EfficientBike8426@reddit
One thing I do is print out a diagram, bring it with me and I’ll put x’s for the taxiways and cross points , not only does it make it make sense right off the bat the read backs are incredibly easy
Silmarlion@reddit
There are many good advices here so i will only give advice for LTFM. I am based here as well.
For taxi out get your standard taxi out charts ready before start up. You or captain should mention the expected taxi route during briefing. %90 of the time your route will be the one you mentioned in the briefing. %9 of the time it will be the same standard route with the exception of swapping “N1” , “N2” or “N3” with each other. You will rarely get those very complicated switches and turnes so when you get yourself familiar with the standard routes you should be okay.
For taxi in it will vary depending on the runway you land and the parking position. You will know both of these before landing. Since you are based here we are most likely in the same company. You will get an ACARs message telling you which parking position you should expect before descend. Based on your parking position and runway there are few possibilities and after you get familiar with them you will have no problem.
You will get arrival 1A for runway 34L/16R landings and expected to do the long way around the middle runways.
For runway 35R/17L landings you will mostly get N5 arrival routes with turn on T3 or T9. You can figure out which one it will be ,T3 or T9 ,based on your parking position.
If your parking position is on remote locations you will get N6 instead of N5.
If your parking position is on piers A,B or next to maintenance hangar you will get C-D-E progressive taxi with turns changing based on traffic. This one is the hardest with each intersection having its own letter number combination but on these ones you can just tell captain to slow down so you can check. You will get used to them pretty quick after flying for few weeks.
For runway 36/18 landings you can just expect the shortest route from runway and you will have plenty of time to check it put after vacating since there is only one taxiway leading back to airport you can use that taxiway to check the charts.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
Pubics_Cube@reddit
If you get lost long enough at LTFM it becomes CNSTPLE.
But seriously, it's just a matter of practice. A lot of larger airfields (at least in the US) have fairly standard routing to get to and from the runway. So what seems like a complicated instruction is actually something you've heard dozens of times. It's a lot like an approach clearance that way; sounds daunting at first but after your 20th one it's expected.
Some companies will have software that helps as well. Things like ForeFlight or FDpro can give you a position on the ramp so you can visualize and plot out your taxi routes much more easily.
Honestly there's not an easy answer it's just practice & repetition
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
Grytr1000@reddit
OK. ELI5. What am I missing here. CNSTPLE = Constantinople, constipation, routing instructions or all three?
randombrain@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0JhC3LO0-8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_(Not_Constantinople)
Slartibartfastthe3rd@reddit
Is this a They Might Be Giants reference?
Pubics_Cube@reddit
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
You’ll get used to it. You’ll know it like the back of your hand after a few weeks.
Write the taxi instructions down or use the scratchpad. I’ve developed my own shorthand for writing down complicated instructions
Don’t call ready for taxi until you’re ready to listen to their response
And when you first fly into Dublin, good luck
ScathedRuins@reddit
lowly PPL here—what’s so complex about EIDW? had a look at the chart and it doesn’t seem too bad to my untrained eyes
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
They speak very quickly, in very strong accents, and will often give you everything in one go.
Eg “vacate sierra 5 onto sierra, whiskey 1 Cross Runway 34 Hotel 1 Link 4 Apron Taxiway 2 stand 202”
And if you dare to make a mistake, or say “say again” because you’ve had 8 instructions thrown at you in about 2 seconds, they’ll get very angry, and then repeat it twice as fast.
Once you’re used to it, again, it’s fine, but I feel sorry for people going in there the first few times, especially if you’re not a native speaker.
Having links, and apron taxiways, and holding points named after bloody planets, rather than just normally named things, can be confusing.
earthgreen10@reddit
what's the difference between sierra 5 and sierra? what does link 4 apron taxi way mean?
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
A letter with a number after is generally an entrance or exit of a runway onto a taxiway
So at Dublin 28L, the parallel taxiway is Taxiway S and the entrance and exit points are S1 S2 S3 etc
A link is what it says on the tin, a link between two taxiways that’s too short or insignificant to be given it’s own taxiway designation.
Apron Taxiways are something I’ve only ever seen in DUB, and they’re literally just taxiways but on the Apron. I have no idea why they don’t call them the same as everywhere else
randombrain@reddit
From a US standpoint, we have the concept of the "movement area" where ATC is responsible for giving you a bad instruction if you prang into another aircraft and the "non-movement area" which is not under ATC control—every operation on the non-movement area is at the pilot's own risk and discretion. Or sometimes there's an airline-run ramp control to direct pushbacks and ramp entry, but that's still the airline's responsibility as opposed to ATC.
"Taxiways" can only exist in movement areas. If there's a need for a defined route to exist in a non-movement area it's called a "taxilane" and ATC can't instruct you to use it, they can only recommend it. I think SFO or LAX or something has a couple standard routes that utilize taxilanes instead of taxiways, at least briefly.
ScathedRuins@reddit
am i wrong for thinking “they can get bent if i didnt understand i’ll say say again as many times as it takes” lol
Urrolnis@reddit
Makes sense until you actually go into some of these larger airports where they've got their own tribal rules that are the antithesis of what we teach and preach. It quickly becomes about pushing metal.
Normally if you're confused and lost, you stop. You get yelled at for that at Chicago O'Hare.
It's not as bad if it's your home airport. You find out the unwritten rules pretty quick. But for airports you only pass through once or twice per year, it becomes a nightmare.
The airlines publish documents for each airport that can inform their pilots on what those tribal rules are, but if you're doing 3-4 legs per day, it gets exhausting on a 45 minute flight to read 15 pages on Chicago O'Hare.
This is as innocuous as Atlanta having specific alias codes for one of their runways that only get used if a specific taxiway is open or closed at the opposite end of the runway, all the way to the "Don't stop" at Chicago O'Hare.
Rant over, tl;dr that works at a Class Delta but Bravos exist solely to push metal
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
Ohare can yell all they want, if you’re confused you stop.
Urrolnis@reddit
Sure. But I don't want to get yelled at. So I'm going to do everything in my power to not get yelled at. So I'm not stopping-aaaaaand I just taxied over an active runway.
External factors are a bitch.
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
Yea I think most controllers realize if they’re difficult to work with that degrades safety. I immediately lose respect for the ones that bark at you on the radio.
LuckOld4436@reddit
Seriously… wtf is wrong with our industry like this…
We’re taught over and over and over and over to confirm things if we’re not sure, then there’s “unwritten rules” now about how you’re a bad pilot if you actually follow that?
Fuck that. If me asking for a clarification screws up flow that much, then you’re way over capacity. That’s not my fault. I’m not wrecking a plane or receiving a deviation because we’ve decided to shove 100 departures into the next 15 mins and it would bother you to repeat an instruction…
Urrolnis@reddit
Big airports exist solely to push metal in and out and expect you to have been there 100 times to make it all work. Can read all the company pages you want, doesn't replace experience.
The NAS is over capacity, under equipped, and understaffed. And overworked. It was designed for a quarter of the current aircraft volume and it's showing. Badly. And these bigger airports like JFK and ORD are where it shows.
Hell, I hear holding going into EWR every other day and Jacksonville Center has a shitfit any time there's even an ounce of convective activity. DCA is apparently going into a ground stop every time there's VIP movement since the crash in January.
ORD and the "don't stop" mentality are just a symptom of a much larger issue.
LuckOld4436@reddit
Yep I agree. I’m an engineer by trade and learning to fly and seeing how much the system basically operates with a factor of safety that’s equivalent to zero… is just…
Even with DCA, they slow ops down to make sure the crash doesn’t happen again, and a few days later pax are complaining about delays… 🤯
Urrolnis@reddit
DCA is particularly aggregious because they try to stuff 60 slots per hour into an airport smaller than a lot of Class Ds. Then add in the complex airspace and conflicting traffic and you've got...well DCA.
There is a theoretical maximum size to airports and we're approaching it quickly. You can only add so many extra runways before you're taxiing 3+ miles and 20 minutes every time. Add a terminal... but now you may as well build a new airport. But now you have to deconflict traffic between the two, and now you've got the New York City mess.
There isn't an easy solution without changing the philosophy behind the NAS.
LuckOld4436@reddit
I don’t know if you have any insights about this but I have a couple questions about DCA an ATP level may be able to answer for me.
If I recall correctly from training, VFR into bravo is supposed to be under direct control of Appr controller, right?
Would Appr ever direct an aircraft through the final approach segment of a runway even if it isn’t active?
One of my questions for the DCA crash is why was a tower controller, whose responsibilities lie in the runway environment, dealing with what seems like a separation issue at the Appr control level?
Urrolnis@reddit
Once you get to within a mile or two of the airport property itself, such as helicopters operating along the Potomac River, you're going to be talking to the tower. More direct traffic deconfliction is needed where stuff is measured in feet as opposed to a TRACON where stuff is more or less measured in miles.
In the case of DCA, the aircraft are tee'ed up by Potomac Approach to be at specific spots at specific times, set up on an approach, maintaining a specific speed. These aircraft are on now a constant. They're "on rails" effectively. Only thing tower has to do for them is ensure the runway is clear and then clear that aircraft to land, or tell them to go around.
This allows tower to manage other aircraft, such as helicopters buzzing around, but also manage the departures. Okay one aircraft just touched down, line the next one up, okay they've cleared the runway, time for a takeoff. There's traffic on a three mile final, now the departing traffic is gone, this one can land. Behind that landing traffic, there's a helicopter that needs to cross the river. If they've got it in sight, good to go.
Short answer is that each "level" of ATC has different levels of aircraft separation that have to be maintained. Ground control needs like... 10 feet between wingtips whereas an ARTCC needs like 10 miles. Tower has a scalpel when it comes to separation and can manage a helicopter and an airplane within a mile of each other, whereas the hatchet that approach controller has can't appropriately separate them.
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Oh you’re not wrong at all, you’re spot on
SeaHawkGaming@reddit
Plus there’s so many dead ends that look deceivingly like taxiways so you go “ah the second taxiway left, must be W1” NOPE and now you’re looking straight at a Gemstone ATR barrelling at you at mach fuck
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Mach fuck is my new favourite technical term
earthgreen10@reddit
does the plane not have equiped taxi diagrams on the screen? Even one of the cessna i trained in had that, and a live look where my plane is on the taxi way
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
There are ones out there that do. A380s and A350s I’m pretty sure have it.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
SeaHawkGaming@reddit
What I do for a shorthand on the scratchpad is something like
MEL3FI/Afor “Taxi via M, E, Link 3, F and Inner, hold short of taxiway A”, but as others have said it comes with practice. Plus LTFM is just a horribly designed airport I’m afraidSciFi_Soul@reddit
That’s how my shorthand looks. I use / for hold short and X for cleared to cross a runway. When I was an FO I had a captain trying to find taxiway X on the chart lol.
jfanderson05@reddit
Yeah, I use / for cross and // for hold short.
JPower96@reddit
Using the / for hold short allows you to update it to cross if you need to when they clear you to cross. You can turn / into X, or if you flip your current shorthand around, you can use / for hold, and // for cross.
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
A 20+ year Captain saw me turn a / into an X once and he was amazed. Looked at me like I’d just pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
Next time I saw him he was so excited to tell me how much fun he was having turning /‘s into X’s.
JPower96@reddit
haha that's adorable
jfanderson05@reddit
I type into the fms scratch pad, but for handwritten notes, that's good stuff.
JPower96@reddit
Ah yes... That would be an advantage over the C150/172/182s I fly.
packardrod44@reddit
Curious what "inner" and "link 3" would designate? Nothing I have ever come across, although my experience is very limited.
SeaHawkGaming@reddit
They’re taxiway names, links are usually short segments linking two adjacent taxiways, check EGLL for an example, and inner is usually an apro taxi line as opposed to the outer taxiway, for an example here see LSGG
packardrod44@reddit
Figured it was that simple, but never have seen it. Thanks!
durandal@reddit
LSZH as well
CarminSanDiego@reddit
What if it need to taxi via Lima Link 3
SeaHawkGaming@reddit
LL3. It’s usually clear from context when looking at the chart and where it isn’t you just swallow your pride and ask ATC
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
I use exactly the same as you, but for “Lima, Link 3” I’d write “L>3”.
Doesn’t work for the scratchpad, but because Embraer, I’m always PM on the ground and the radios are on the MCDU, so I don’t use the scratchpad
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
whatsitallabouteh@reddit
Dublin based pilot here, the way I laughed out loud.
It’s not only the taxi structure in Dublin but the sheer volume of separate taxi instructions that ATC gives you, it’s crazy more don’t get lost or ask for progressive taxi instructions. I get very sorry for anyone not based here as it must seem crazy.
Granted, part of the issue is related to legacy infrastructure issues and it is improving little by little over the years (particularly with the opening of 28R).
SeaHawkGaming@reddit
Idk what it is, DUB is just a bullshit magnet in general for me, not just on the ground. I don’t think I’ve had a single normal turn there. From waiting 2hrs for our plane in the morning because it was parked in the boonies and the only mech qualified to ride the brakes called in sick, over a gen fail on approach to being vectored so tight into the final with a 50kts tailwind on base that the plane didn’t manage to capture the glide, something always happens up there. Plus, the Hilton Dublin Airport just isn’t the greatest hotel in our network which doesn’t help it either
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Shivers in PTSD
We moved there during Covid, thankfully back in the city now.
SeaHawkGaming@reddit
City hotels? Can’t have that. Too expensive for this highly profitable aircraft
durandal@reddit
Haha, I feel ya.
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Honestly of all the airports in Europe I fly to Dublin took me the longest to get used to, I’m fine with it now of course, but as a Brit I’m always nervous of ending up on YouTube like the infamous Speedbird argument.
I feel particularly sorry for people who are doing it in their second language, I struggle enough as a native English speaker.
Yes 28R has certainly helped. They also went through a kind phase where after vacating 28L they gave you instructions up to 16/34, and then further once you were on W1, but it seems to have crept back to normal
glidec@reddit
Then you get lazy and type it into the fms scratch pad cuz you don't feel like pulling out your pen
vARROWHEAD@reddit
I sometimes use the highlighter in Foreflight and just highlight the cleared route
ATPLguy@reddit
Been in Istanbul couple of times, its tricky even for experienced pilots, so no worries if you might be having troubles navigating the huge airport.
Marbleicecream@reddit
As they already mentioned, practice makes perfect....I use a Garmin Glo 2 gps which makes the moving map...move. so that helps. But at first, before getting the gps it was just practice, practice, practice.... studying the charts before each flight so that taxi instructions don't sound "crazy, foreign, etc"...
DillingerAdam@reddit
I used the Flight Radar app a lot during my training and still do. For each airport, you can check the history of your company's flight number for up to seven days. You can see the preferred runway for takeoff and landing, which taxiway they use to vacate the runway, and which stand they usually park at. LTFM is a challenging airport—if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.
downwindsavage@reddit
Someone on here has had ORD as their first flight. You only get better at receiving pain from that point on.
theguineapigssong@reddit
I never flew airlines, just military. I always found ground ops somewhere new to be one of the most challenging things. I'd print out a big copy of the airfield diagram and put it on a clipboard. I'd study it enroute and found that would help. Once we got the taxi instructions, after read back I'd highlight the route on my enlarged airfield diagram for easier reference.
CarminSanDiego@reddit
But there’s foreflight
hartzonfire@reddit
Honest question-are military aviators using tablets with ForeFlight on them? I could see it in the large airframes (tankers, etc.) but do the single seat fighters use them?
theguineapigssong@reddit
I've seen a million dollar avionics computer get shorted out because someone spilled a Sprite on it, so I'll stick with paper.
DOUBLE_DOINKED@reddit
Time for bed grandpa
WoundedAce@reddit
Bro We fly with like 6 iPads on the jet If you’re single seat, there’s a procedure for carrying backup pubs in case of EFB failure Chillllll
harambe_did911@reddit
Ipads are more soda resistant than paper these days. Always good to have paper backup though
Urrolnis@reddit
Join us in the 21st century with Airport Moving Maps on the iPad and you'll find ground ops to be a little easier.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
Have you seen what an approach plate looks like when someone spills sprite on it or tears it in half? What about flying with expired plates? Even if your iPad dies due to un timely soda encounter, just request vectors to an ILS and have the controller give you the localizer freq and the minimums, the weather and alternate climb out instructions. There’s a reason why pretty much every first world aviation operation uses efb’s.
lief101@reddit
Yes, but for some dumb reason, ForeFlight hasn’t implemented AMM (airport moving map) like we have in FlightDeckPro. And bothe FF and FD pro are owned by the same parent company. It’s probably only a matter of time.
nolalacrosse@reddit
They do have it, it’s just not something in the basic plans
CarminSanDiego@reddit
Yes
hartzonfire@reddit
Cool
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
That's a solid technique. Thanks!
Uffda-man@reddit
Follow the senior FAs
hoosier06@reddit
iPad in holder with diagram up and the highlight function active. I mark each letter of the taxi route given as they say it and slash the hold short spots. Then draw a line on the route.
SDN_General@reddit
M.m.Massive?
Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit
Have a few reasonable routings already written down when you call for initial taxi so maybe you make a couple corrections to it and you're not madly trying to not it down without thinking. Mark HS1 or HS2 or whatever next to it, before you call. Have little associations to remind you which taxiways are which (twy W is the one closest to the terminal which is where the whisky is at). That was my self developed approach when I was in the same shoes as you
hypnotoad23@reddit
Hopefully you don’t have to go to ord while it’s being reshaped. Not even the controllers know what the taxiways are on a given day
yes_im_sure_dammit@reddit
Demand the progressive. Works like a charm.
PinKindly7701@reddit
lol that should work well in LTFM....
Oxygen_Converter@reddit
I bring up the airport diagram on foreflight and draw/highlight the route as I get clearance.
Makes reading back easy and then while taxiing it's as simple as blue dot on drawn line if the plates are geo referenced.
One_Event1734@reddit
Bot post. Real pilots can look at a taxi chart once and they’re good for life.
PajamasBraun@reddit
Just ask for a progressive taxi every time!
blizzue@reddit
Before you get to the airplane, look at the ATIS or the weather and determine what runway will be in use. Then try to familiarize yourself with a few options for taxi instructions. Having a mental picture of what you could expect makes it easier when you’re given the instruction.
As an FO I always traced the taxi instruction on the AMM- as I got more proficient I would only trace the turns and the holding points. As a CA I listen to what the instruction is and I say it back to my FO so he can verify I got it right.
You’ll get used to it.
Working_Football1586@reddit
I always get the info and have a mildly anticipated route and have short hand for the instructions. Don’t try and be a people pleaser if you screw up writing it down. I usually just give them hey im not a local can you give me that again. Chicago will groan but most don’t care
ffhfbdbdbbd@reddit
Don’t take mil leave in first 365 days.
Mauledriver919@reddit
Watching the flow of traffic on flightradar24 could help you recognize taxi route patterns
Flyguy115@reddit
Study the taxi charts and already have the mostly likely taxi routes you will take. I also draw red lines on any closed taxi ways or runways. Sometimes I will draw the taxi clearance on the diagram.
Heel-Judder@reddit
Because I've been going to the same 30 airports for 20 years.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
Heel-Judder@reddit
I guess I'm not really sure what your problem is. Just follow the signs, dude. It's not difficult.
zero_xmas_valentine@reddit
Yeah man how do you not just immediately become adept at navigating complex airports, I of course never struggled to follow along with an ORD taxi clearance because I'm simply built different
Weasel474@reddit
Just be perfect your first time, duh!
McDrummerSLR@reddit
I can’t speak for your specific airport, but just get into the habit of writing stuff down and reference your charts after. The option for a map that shows your position in real time really helps. And tell your captains that you’re new and need a few extra seconds to get your bearings. After a few months of repetition you’ll have it down pat. Generally you’ll probably find that taxi routes are the same at bigger airports, but be sure not to assume that’ll be the case every time.
stuck_inmissouri@reddit
Have a piece of paper and something to write with ready, and write down those clearances.
Nikolaj-mali-lav@reddit
I have a technique that I use to "practice" at home before the flight.
Open a flight radar app on a phone or tablet and your charts on another device.
Find a flight(preferably by your company) that has already arrived and press the playback option.
Zoom in on the flight phase where the aircraft lands and drag the yellow plane to see which taxi routing it got that you could expect too.(They are usually the same,not always..)
Look at your chart to see the taxiway names.
The trick, like always in RT, is to know what to expect. This way, you can go through possible taxi clearances before even being at the airport. Works great with arrivals(star) to see the potential shortcuts you may get.
All the best!
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
sysinop@reddit
iPad with "own ship" on display currently. In the past, a paper chart and follow along looking at the airport signage cross referencing to the paper chart. In either case, do not proceed unless 100% certain of my position and instructions. Come to a stop and call ground for clarification if needed. With a MCDU or FMC scratchpad "taxi charlie, lima, alpha hold short X-ray" is C/L/A//X. I use the fwd slash to separate taxiways and a double forward slash for "hold short" Hold short = //. Many check air pilots will fuss about the scratchpad technique but at least at my airline there is no prohibition to using this method. Some pilots draw the route on the iPad with the highlight feature, but I find that cumbersome. Main thing: GO SLOW.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
Picklemerick23@reddit
Not sure what software you use but you mentioned AMM so maybe Jeppesen? Well, my answer is based off that possibility.
I’m dumb, so I draw pictures. When we’re calling for taxi I have the map up on my iPad with the green highlight option selected. As they speak the route I just trace it out. I started doing this because a lot of airports have double letters (TS, TT, WA) So hearing that in a sentence you’d think 2 individual taxiways and it’ll jack up your flow (if you’ve never been there) so the picture helps.
Most airports also have standard taxi routes. Now, that doesn’t mean they’ll be implemented but it’ll give you an idea for the airport’s ‘flow’.
Jumping back to Jeppesen, again if yall use it, or equivalent, we can look at live traffic at airports. It’s a huge help because from cruise I can see what the airport is doing and what taxiways they’re using.
Or we could all learn from the South Koreans and just ‘follow the greens’ (Incheon, S.K.)
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
cdmvt@reddit
You’ll get used to it eventually. It’s about situational awareness. Starting with the briefing at the gate, expected taxi I supposed gets briefed in your sops (in my company we highlight the hotspots, but I always mention expected taxi path in complicated airports). You are at the gate and you need to get to the runway, so when taking a clearance you’ll write it in the scratchpad and then the airplane does not move 1 meter before both of you have a clear picture of where you need to go. When taxiing always confirm your position on the chart, checking all of the intersections that you are passing by. As a PM never be passive during taxi, be as vigilant and ahead of the aircraft as possible, you need to become google maps for the PF, “now left on T and then it will be the 3rd to the right on L” for example. Whenever in doubt say it immediately and unless SAW can be fully restored STOP the aircraft, or suggest to stop, and clarify. If anything is not clear from ATC instructions ask for clarification. You’ll get better at it, it’s normal to feel lost at the beginning.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
NoGuidance8609@reddit
Totally agree with above. Brief the expected taxi route (both for departure and as part of the arrival briefing), have that already written down and when you receive taxi instructions from ATC you only need to note what was different from expected.
Shinsf@reddit
I don't know your company procedures but mine has me doing most of the heads down work while taxiing. Let me just say It was a struggle at many unknown airfield.
It got easier with time
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
4Sammich@reddit
It does. I’ve flown to all major US airports but just due to scheduling had never been to ORD. Now that I’ve been there 50 times it’s like being at my home GA airport.
legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit
You just gotta do it more.I remember going into ORD for the first time first flight after being a CFI. Thought I was going to explode.
Catkii@reddit
I use the scratch pad of my box for taxi instructions. Just whatever letters they give me.
/ for hold short of (whatever)
X for cross the limitation when cleared the next stage.
So for example I would end up with DA/6XA11 for Delta Alpha hold short of 6… cross 6, holding point A11
prex10@reddit
You'll come to realize you take the same route each and every time to a runway or inbound to a gate.
90% of taxiways often go unused
mattrob77@reddit
I would suggest you not to worry too much about it, especially with LTFM being, probably, one of the worst place to be in LIFUS regarding taxi operations. This kind of things will come with time and experience. A lot of people will tell you they know the way perfectly and they are correct, but it is also a danger to believe this way.
Now, if you wish to have some tips, here is one. Use FR24 and have a look at past flight from your airline. Most likely, the same taxi route and parking position will be used. Make this while looking at your ground charts and have a rough idea about how your flight will go through the airport.
Now, very important ! Don't anticipate each taxi route and study them. Your brain will expect that and then you might make mistake if ATC gives K and you expected L (random taxi names)
Hope it helps.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
JonOBIMIKEL@reddit
Over time it became easier to visualise what ATC intended.
If you use Jeppesen you can draw a route on the taxi plate as the clearance is given.
UrnofShadows@reddit (OP)
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
New FO here, currently in type rating with LTFM (Istanbul) as my home base.
Starting from LIFUS flight 1, captains expect me to lead all taxi instructions immediately after clearance. I can reference the AMM briefly, but staying heads-down isn’t an option.
Given how massive and intricate LTFM is, I need to lock in a method to internalize layout, flow, and hotspots, ideally something I can carry forward to other airports as well.
**For those who’ve been through this:**
How did you approach learning the airport environment starting out?
What habits, tricks, or tools helped you stay ahead of the airplane on the ground?
Looking back, is there something you wish you had known before your first taxi brief?
Or anything else you found useful during early line ops at complex and busy airports?
Appreciate any feedback.
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