Palestinian paramedics shot by Israeli forces had hands tied, eyewitnesses say
Posted by indorock@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 276 comments
Posted by indorock@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 276 comments
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
This happened before. Zionists are so brainwashed that they're at the point where they'll literally execute prisoners and see nothing wrong with it. These people live on a completely different planet from the rest of us.
indorock@reddit (OP)
It's almost as if this isn't an anomaly or a case of "bad apples", and point-blank executions are the IDF's modus operandi.
lightmaker918@reddit
Imagine believing eyewitnesses from Gaza as breaking news. Like the Al Shifa manager didn't lie about his hospital not being used to hold hostages, we all saw the CCTV, and like Hamas didn't blame the Al Ahli parking lot PIJ rocket misfire on Israel, with the world's news picking up the headlines.
ruscaire@reddit
Pity the Israeli’s aren’t letting in impartial journalists isn’t it
lightmaker918@reddit
Why did they not take a picture of the supposedly handcuffed and executed people and post them? There are videos from the scene, yet we need to rely on an eye witness "senior doctor"? Why would Israel go through the trouble to supposedly cover up this thing only to arrange for the bodies to be picked up a day later. The whole thing smells off.
ruscaire@reddit
I’m inclined to believe that the people who have a proven track record of executing medics and journalists probably did this
lightmaker918@reddit
Proven track record if you believe a manufactured narrative. If you base your fact foundation on what some doctor in Gaza said, well, I've already proven they lie for Hamas.
ruscaire@reddit
It’s kind of an overwhelming narrative at this stage outside the US and Israel I’m sorry to say.
lightmaker918@reddit
There were also mass protests on Oct 8th before Israel even started it's response. There are hundreds of millions of people manufacturing and amplifying anything anti Israel for decades, a lot of times based on lies and half truths. I'll be the first to call out bad Israeli policy and holding people accountable, and I'll still be on here calling for peace, but the larger narrative set has no bearing on reality.
ruscaire@reddit
I’m happy to hear firstly that you are in favour of peace and secondly that you do in fact have some nuanced understanding of what is going on. What you need to realise is that everyone in Israel and the US lives in a massive media bubble.
Perhaps we get a somewhat skewed narrative of what is going on, outside of that bubble. If I recall correctly the protests were in exhortation of Israel to stay their hand. Maybe that was unreasonable. Maybe Israel is entitled to her pound of flesh but she has gone way beyond that and has shown no signs that she wants to stop.
lightmaker918@reddit
They were chanting Gas the Jews in the Sydney Opera house. Expecting Israel to stay their hand while still fighting off an invasion on it's own land is wild.
Probably true anywhere, I don't consume very much Israeli media myself.
I don't see it as a pound of flesh, I see it as Hamas continued rule of Gaza is unacceptable, we'd just get to the same point in 3-4 years with another 100k casualties on both sides. The quicker this can happen, the less Palestinians and Israelis need to die in this useless war, prolonged only by Hamas delusions of riding out the storm the the world bailing them out.
ruscaire@reddit
So how do you feel about the exclusion of foreign journalists and the murder of aid workers? You can’t claim these things aren’t policy.
lightmaker918@reddit
Exclusion of foreign journalists is probably a damage control mechanism, if 10 foreign journalists die for covering war zones in a highly dense combat environment, that's a look Israel prefers to avoid. The benefit of having them there doesn't help anyone tbh, there's no shortage of video cameras the reporting out of Gaza.
And yeah I'm saying they aren't policy, a ton of uninvolved people have died on this war, primarily because Hamas operates out of civilian infrastructure and does not set up humantiarian no combat areas, as per it's responsibility under the IHL.
The IDF knows exactly where aid centers are and can always bomb them directly, how do you explain are they still functional after over a year of war if it's a policy to target them.
ruscaire@reddit
Not a good look. That’s all I’m saying.
Maybe it can all be justified but I’m seeing an awful lot of people putting lots of energy into trying to convince me and failing.
lightmaker918@reddit
Frankly it's a done deal by now, it's just a matter of time. Hamas already knows they'll need to disarm, they ran out of allies and political will even by it's previous supporters like Qatar. Jordan is also on record for suggesting the exile of 3000 Hamas members. Hopefully it'll be a first step to peace.
ruscaire@reddit
Right now friend, it looks as though the state of Israel is casting her nets beyond Gaza and Hamas. Peace in Gaza looks like the annihilation of Gaza. It looks as though Israel will continue to shave land from her neighbours.
I don’t see it. I’m sorry maybe I’m just ignorant or misinformed and I’d love to be wrong.
You should be listening to what Ireland and South Africa have to say on this, you shouldn’t be dismissing us as anti-semites. We have seen where this all goes and we have also seen working solutions.
icameow14@reddit
I appreciate you actually arguing in good faith and not immediately resorting to name calling the Israeli you’re talking to unlike a lot of people in this sub.
I will simply say this: Hamas and Palestinians don’t get to have to have infinite attempts at destroying Israel. They don’t get to try to destroy Israel and all Israel is allowed to do is purely defend and wait for the next attack. Each time Palestinians try to destroy Israel, each time they send suicide bombers to blow up restaurants or buses, each time they use cars to run over Israelis or stab them in the streets, each time they shoot missiles towards Israeli civilians, each time they attempt something like october 7th, they’re gambling away what they have and they are losing.
Since 1948 Palestinians and arab countries have tried to destroy Israel. Each time they failed. At what point, as a country, do you get to say “enough” and try to stop the problem at the source? This isn’t about pounds of flesh, this isn’t about revenge or punishment, this is about ending the threat once and for all. If Palestinians don’t want a state unless it’s from the river to the sea, they can deal with the consequences of their attempts to get it. Israel isn’t perfect and it’s certainly not unemotional in the way it has been conducting this war, but they didn’t ask for this war. They didn’t ask Hamas to hide behind their civilians while they shot missiles at Tel-Aviv. Israel just wants to live in peace and feel secure.
Does that make any sense at all without me getting called a dirty zionist or genocide supporter? I have my own grievances with Israel but there’s a difference between criticizing some of their ways and criticizing their very existence. Hopefully i’ve been clear.
lightmaker918@reddit
If you're talking about Katz's plan to take land from Gaza, that's a negotiation tactic where he is trying to bring them to the table to return the hostages and disarm. No one in their right mind wants to annex any part of Gaza.
Syria - I'm against that in general, but it's also an attempt in their minds to get them to normalize and to keep the Golan heights.
Lebanon - Israel didn't attack Lebanon since 2006. The only reason 5 points in Lebanon exist under IDF rule is to make sure they enforce Hezbollah's disarnment.
WB - that they want to annex, I'm against that.
I don't find you personally antisemitic and I find you conversing in good faith. regarding SA's case, I read their examples in depth and they have routinely taken quotes out of context as if the people saying them were talking about Palestinians, instead of Hamas, which is very clear if you read the sentences before and after they were quoted.
YesAmAThrowaway@reddit
Well they fire on journalists like they do on anybody else too, so they wouldn't be safe 😁😁😁😁😁
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Not just like anybody else. They specifically target journalists to keep them from reporting. And when that doesn't work they take out their families instead just like the good terrorists that they are.
ruscaire@reddit
Fire on them? If they’re lucky more likely they’ll get hit by a targeted air strike
Billybigbutts2@reddit
Zionist dog.
lightmaker918@reddit
Thanks for demonstrating why we need a state.
Billybigbutts2@reddit
You pigs don't even hide your genocidal ideations. You delight in the deaths of children. You disgust the world. Be ashamed of yourself dog.
basel99@reddit
The fucking nerve of Zionists vehemently denying bombing one hospital as if it's the worst crime in existence (it is) and something that they'd never do, while simultaneously admitting to bombing every other hospital in Gaza. Your entire society is rotten.
hamburgercide@reddit
It is an anomaly. They have been in conflict for over 100 years. If you want to compare methods you will not be happy with the results.
catador_de_potos@reddit
Except one's got backing from the biggest economies around the world, and the other is pretty much fighting with sticks and stones.
hamburgercide@reddit
First of all, in 1948 Arabs were not fighting with sticks and stones — it was 5 vs 1 and the U.S. wasn’t heavily supportive until the late 60s. Even today Palestinians enjoy UN support from 55 Muslim countries who are mostly dictatorships and who almost always unanimously pile up on Israel. There are more UN resolutions on Israel than every other country combined despite that it’s like 10-20 miles wide and has an insignificant population.
Idk if you’re familiar with history but this conflict will be a tiny blip compared to everything else going on in the world and the only thing they will care about is that the Palestinian Arab population has had record growth, growing increasing by orders of magnitude since Israel gained independence and will continue to have record growth even in Gaza, while the current population of Jews in the world is 1,000,000 less than in 1936.
There is no extermination. There is no genocide in Gaza. And for the past 2000 years it’s Muslim Arabs and Christian Europeans who have conquered most of the world killing millions and ethnically cleansing countries replacing the indigenous languages, cultures, and religions with their own. Not the Jews. So please spare me your selective outrage.
catador_de_potos@reddit
I'm not talking religion or ethnicities, but I see exactly where your argument is heading towards to.
Go on, say it. I know you want to. Call me and anyone who minimally critizes Israel an antisemite.
Zipz@reddit
Weird you ignored his point and just jumped to he’s going to call me an anti semite.
Why are you ignoring history when multiple Arab countries started wars with Israel when Israel had no western backing ?
catador_de_potos@reddit
I refuse to play the blaming game. There's no excuse for a genocide, none.
If you think there's one, then fuck off, I don't want to talk to you.
Zipz@reddit
One more time
You ignored his point completely and then tried to pull your going to call me a racist card.
I refuse to let keep changing the subject
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Here are some facts about the 1948 "war"..
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fjy13lwulxkyd1.jpeg
3000 Iraqis, 1000 Lebanese, 3000 Syrians. Hasbara counts those as the ARMIES of THREE ARAB COUNTRIES LOL
The Arab leaders were not interested in a war with Israel. Barely coming out from under colonialism, their actions during the war and the numbers they sent showed that they were never really determined to join.
As a matter of fact, there is ample evidence of collusion between the Israelis and Jordanians during the 1948 war, with deals under the table pretty much gifting parts of the West Bank to Jordan in return for not interfering in other areas. This is why Glubb Pasha, commander of the Arab Legion, described the 1948 war as a “phoney war“.
Zionist gangs had brand new produced german weapons from czechoslovakia's post war production, former nazi army weapons, USA fighters, French weapons, stocked British weapons etc..fighters..tanks..artillery etc ..not to forget that three B-17 bombers were bought in the United States through black market channels and shortly after one of them bombed Cairo in July 1948 the Zionists were able to establish air supremacy.
Here is what France did for the Zionist gangs during the "war"
a)the suspension of arms sales to Syria, notwithstanding signed contracts;
b) prevention of a large sale of arms by a Swiss company to Ethiopia, which was actually destined for Egypt and Transjordan;
c) diplomatic pressure on Belgium to suspend arms sales to the Arab states;
d) denial of a British request at the end of April to permit the landing of a squadron of British aircraft on their way to Transjordan;
e) authorization of Air France to transport cargo to Tel Aviv on 13 May;
f) allowing aircraft [carrying arms from Czechoslovakia] to land on French territory in transit to Israel;
g) discreet French diplomatic support for Israel in the UN;
h) two arms shipments to 'Nicaragua', which were actually intended for Israel.
So wrote Yossef Nachmani (Ukranian-born senior officer in the Haganah, who was also director of the Jewish National Fund in Eastern Galilee from 1935 until 1965) in his diary after touring Arab villages in the upper Galilee conquered by the Israeli army in Operation Hiram, toward the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Where are you getting your 1948 numbers from? Iraq surged 15,000+ troops to Israel, Egypt had 15-20,000 and Jordan 7-10,000. There were 6,000 casualties on the Arab side, how can you quantify that against the 7000 total you’re positing?
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Arab total 21500
Israel total 65000
Rashid Khalidi
Arab total 20269
Israel first-line 27000
Israel second-line 90000+
Israel total 117000+
Avi Shlaim https://www.jstor.org/stable/176252
Arab total 21000
Israel first-line 35000
There is a solid scholarly consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The numbers did not remain static. As a matter of fact, the longer the war went on for, the more the numerical gap between the sides widened in Israel’s favor. Between March and July, almost 13,000 trained men arrived from abroad to join the war on the Israeli side, by mid-June Ben Gurion noted that the IDF stood at 41,000, in addition to the 90,000 second line units as a complement to the IDF. There were efforts to increase these 90000 to 112000. The Arab states also reinforced their armies, but they were never able to keep up with the numbers of the Israeli side. At the end stages of the war, the Israeli army actually outnumbered the Arab armies by 2 to 1.
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Rashid Khalidi
Avi Shlaim https://www.jstor.org/stable/176252
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Rashid Khalidi
Avi Shlaim https://www.jstor.org/stable/176252
There is a solid scholarly consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The numbers did not remain static. As a matter of fact, the longer the war went on for, the more the numerical gap between the sides widened in Israel’s favor. Between March and July, almost 13,000 trained men arrived from abroad to join the war on the Israeli side, by mid-June Ben Gurion noted that the IDF stood at 41,000, in addition to the 90,000 second line units as a complement to the IDF. There were efforts to increase these 90000 to 112000. The Arab states also reinforced their armies, but they were never able to keep up with the numbers of the Israeli side. At the end stages of the war, the Israeli army actually outnumbered the Arab armies by 2 to 1.
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Rashid Khalidi
Avi Shlaim https://www.jstor.org/stable/176252
There is a solid scholarly consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The numbers did not remain static. As a matter of fact, the longer the war went on for, the more the numerical gap between the sides widened in Israel’s favor. Between March and July, almost 13,000 trained men arrived from abroad to join the war on the Israeli side, by mid-June Ben Gurion noted that the IDF stood at 41,000, in addition to the 90,000 second line units as a complement to the IDF. There were efforts to increase these 90000 to 112000. The Arab states also reinforced their armies, but they were never able to keep up with the numbers of the Israeli side. At the end stages of the war, the Israeli army actually outnumbered the Arab armies by 2 to 1.
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Rashid Khalidi
Avi Shlaim https://www.jstor.org/stable/176252
There is a solid scholarly consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The numbers did not remain static. As a matter of fact, the longer the war went on for, the more the numerical gap between the sides widened in Israel’s favor. Between March and July, almost 13,000 trained men arrived from abroad to join the war on the Israeli side, by mid-June Ben Gurion noted that the IDF stood at 41,000, in addition to the 90,000 second line units as a complement to the IDF. There were efforts to increase these 90000 to 112000. The Arab states also reinforced their armies, but they were never able to keep up with the numbers of the Israeli side. At the end stages of the war, the Israeli army actually outnumbered the Arab armies by 2 to 1.
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Regarding Iraq that's totally not true and isn't even mentioned in any sources. There is a consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The actual debate here is about the degree to which the Arab armies were outnumbered. Let us look at a few sources:
John Bagot Glubb
Rashid Khalidi
Avi Shlaim https://www.jstor.org/stable/176252
There is a solid scholarly consensus that the Arab armies were outnumbered. The numbers did not remain static. As a matter of fact, the longer the war went on for, the more the numerical gap between the sides widened in Israel’s favor. Between March and July, almost 13,000 trained men arrived from abroad to join the war on the Israeli side, by mid-June Ben Gurion noted that the IDF stood at 41,000, in addition to the 90,000 second line units as a complement to the IDF. There were efforts to increase these 90000 to 112000. The Arab states also reinforced their armies, but they were never able to keep up with the numbers of the Israeli side. At the end stages of the war, the Israeli army actually outnumbered the Arab armies by 2 to 1. This is not even delving into the qualitative difference in troops, as many troops on the Israeli side had combat experience from the world wars as well as superior equipment and tools after the first truce.
Zipz@reddit
Damn that’s a lot of excuses for a war they still should of won.
It’s sad you’re trying to make excuses for a genocidal war.
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
Funny how making excuses for genocide is basically what your existence is about. LOL
Folksvaletti@reddit
Where's the numbers from in the picture you linked?
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
A soldier with the Arabs by John Bagot Glubb
Positive-Bus-7075@reddit
No no no please compare methods.
Israel literally went after civilians intentionally.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F10bxvp3bsn7e1.jpeg
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn4woma55se5e1.jpeg
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fkamala-wouldve-made-things-better-bro-v0-rgettlzgryzd1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd229715a2b0deb4e8cd4c5fc28e216880186e76f
Used 80 year old civilians as human shields.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fv40z2cyedije1.jpeg
Sniped babies directly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5gaj2_a8gQ
Not to mention wearing the underwear of displaced and murdered civilians etc
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fisraeli-activist-dan-ezra-a-known-supporter-of-netanyahus-v0-a86k2i2q0ofe1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D990%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7b9ac4e72b9c53111b4367df85842e7354716a40
Get a fkn life.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
These fucken people keep lying when Israel has made terrorism their official military doctrine. They're just banking on the rest of us being completely uninformed.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
If you truly felt that way, you'd be demanding proof of life of all of the Israeli hostages. You aren't, so you only think it's bad when 'those people' do it and it's okay when it's done to them.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Yet strangely you're not condemning Israel for the tens of thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese it has killed. But please keep telling me how I should take your clown opinions seriously.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Your caliphate fanfiction is going to a weird place.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Israel needs to be dismantled.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
You've been trying for decades. It's not gonna happen, and Israel has the artillery to ensure you don't get close.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Israel will be relegated to the scrap heap of history within the next 50 years.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Ah, gotta love the diuretic squirts of Caliphate fanfiction
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Israel is a nation of terrorists.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
"How dare you not fight like saints against people trying to kill your children. I am going to you to a higher standard than I hold any other country in the region, because I actually want a glorious caliphate to esterminate you." - you
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Absolutely terroristic just like a good Israeli would be.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Why in the world are you advocating for more dead children? That's monstrous!
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
You're a terrorist.
Billybigbutts2@reddit
I would like the IOF to stop bombing their own people just as much as I don't want them to bomb Palestinians.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
You mean like the time palestine bombed their own hospital parking lot and claimed 500 children died?
Billybigbutts2@reddit
Zionist propaganda that you dogs eat up. Hey here's an idea give the people of Gaza self determination and Hamas won't be needed. Hell they will even be able to bite them out. Or wait you don't think Arabs are people. Bloodthirsty pig.
lightmaker918@reddit
If this happened there's no justification, the entire squad and everyone involved gave should be held acceptable go to prison.
Somehow I doubt an eye witness doctor who says they were executed and bound, we've seen them lie many times before, like with the sniping babies claims.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
The thing is nothing happens.
Israel has been caught openly lying MULTIPLE TIMES, about the case of the little girl. Who was in a car with her family following evacuation orders when a tank opened fire on them. No guns or anything was ever found on them. The little girl somehow survived, and called for help. The hospital COORDINATED WITH THE IDF, and got THE GO AHEAD to send an ambulance. The tank waited for the ambulance that was clearly marked in broad daylight to stop. Then opened fire on them. Then to finish the job they opened fire on the car AGAIN finally killing the little girl.
NOTHING has ever come of this. NOTHING.
I can show you videos of IDF standing by WATCHING as settlers shoot clearly unarmed civilians, and NOTHING came of it.
Your country has ZERO accountability.
Or I guess I know one or two times, like when there was video of a Palestinian being raped by guards. But then your politicians openly debated it was ok to rape them, and your people stormed the prison with a riot.
Or the time you were literally killing your own, hostages coming to soldiers for help, wearing no shirts, in the open, walking slowly, obviously unarmed, calling to them in their language.... they mag dumped them, stopped for a second, then continued mag dumping them. I think that case was investigated.
lightmaker918@reddit
It's a war dude, it's not like IDF shots at children for no reason. They must have driven through a checkpoint. If you think there's a policy of targeting civilians for no reason it's a higher burden of proof than a few instances where *you* can't imagine why they were shot at. The sort of evidence I'd expect to see all over the place is videos of soldiers executing Palestinians in mass, like we have from Hamas.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
Then why are they not investigating it, and why are they lying about investigating it? Why has nothing come of it after two years?
If there are war crimes they need to be looked into. If they don't and there is zero accountability or repercussions, then you absolutely do end up with intentionally killing civilians.
"Its war" is such a BS excuse.
"a few instances" ....how many more do you want me to share? What is the number of instances that would justify having an investigation into a single one with your broken logic.
My cousin died in a Hezbollah terror attack, and he would never have wanted to justify killing civilians in his name. Like when you guys killed over a hundred civilians to rescue a couple hostages. That is reprehensible and sick. People like you are giving the Jewish people a bad name, thankfully there are plenty of Jewish people like my friends and family that have a conscience.
lightmaker918@reddit
You're right they should've investigated and published the findings. It's a tragic mistake and it's a bad look on them that they haven't acknowledged what happened.
I'm looking at the macro numbers, adult military age males are twice as represented (40% compared to 24% their share of the population). If your argument is the IDF made mistakes and got people killed, while at some cases not holding people accountable, I agree.
If your claim is the IDF has a policy of targeting civilians I strongly disagree.
Mr-Anderson123@reddit
Brother, your country (assuming your flair is correct) almost rioted when prison guards accused (the proof is beyond doubt) of raping Palestinian prisoners got any pushback. They even had them on National tv as heroes!
Your country doesn’t investigate war crimes, they actively promote them. Hell, just look at the Hannibal directive
lightmaker918@reddit
Channel 14 is like fox news. Any country has rioting racist freaks, especially during wartime, it's not the face of our country but I see that's what many people were pushed to believe with narratives. Fact of the matter is they were held accountable and sentenced. Not a single Palestinian was ever held accountable by the PA or Hamas.
Mr-Anderson123@reddit
Ok, so you are against the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank and you are in favor of an independent Palestinian state?
lightmaker918@reddit
Yup sure. With bilateral peace negotiations, that's key.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
So Palestine can have its own standing army to defend themselves from, for instance, the settler movement?
lightmaker918@reddit
There won't be settlers, but they can have an army sure after a cooldown period post peace. As long as they don't use it for aggression, Israel has a history of maintaining peace agreements.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Why won’t there be settlers? The settler movement is already illegal but Israel has done nothing to stop it.
Does Israel need a cooldown period too considering we can all agree the amount of civilian death and civilian infrastructure destruction caused by Israel far outweighs anything done to Israel?
lightmaker918@reddit
Because clearly if there's peace no settler will remain in the Palestinian state territory...
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Stealth edit second paragraph just when ai thought you were the one Israeli not conflating Hamas with all of Palestine. You’d think if Hamas represented the will of the people that more than 2% of the population of Gaza strip would be fighting with them
lightmaker918@reddit
75% of Palestinians support armed resistance according to pcpsr, over 70% in the WB always supported Oct 7th while support for it in Gaza is falling - https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/991
Like I said, I believe in peace, but I'm under no illusion that Palestinians as a whole will look the other way would they somehow manage to get the upper hand militarily. They overwhelmingly deny any civilian deaths or rapes happened on Oct 7th to this day. I'm for pragmatic peace not out of love for people who'd generally currently love to see me die, but out of necessity.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
And Israelis as a whole do the same. Before October 7th, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian civilians in the west bank. Are you so surprised they support armed resistance when Israeli settlers are killing people and stealing their homes?
lightmaker918@reddit
Before Oct 7th it was the deadliest year for Israelis since the 2nd Intifada due to terrorist attacks aswell.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
I guess you could pretend to be reasonable for 5 minutes then you’re back to justifying settler violence and expansion
lightmaker918@reddit
Where did I justify settler violence or expansion? You're projecting.
22 Palestinians were killed by settlers between 2010-2019 according to Al Jazeera, and I think every single case should be investigated and the settlers should be jailed.
That doesn't mean there aren't also real security concerns by Israelis and that terrorism is not a daily occurrence here.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Its really weird you cut off the count for settler violence 5 years ago especially when it started increasing significantly in 2020/2021
lightmaker918@reddit
That's the number I know. Settler violence is abhorrent and I'm against it, don't know what you want me to say.
I agree that settler violence and right wingers in government increase terrorism, part of the reason Hamas attacked is the division inside Israel fueled by the right wing goverment that was formed.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
You just seem to keep putting the onus on Palestinians for all their problems as though you don’t have a far right government actively antagonizing these people just because they can
lightmaker918@reddit
Israel has part of the blame aswell, both populations have radicalized and turned right. I always said that. It was nice chatting with you before but it's getting tiresome, project all you want on the vision of an Israeli you clearly have in you head, I'm tired of your negativity.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
I mean the fact of the matter is that Israel has all the power in this situation which means the onus falls on Israel to take the first real steps towards lasting peace
lightmaker918@reddit
When I talk to friends and relatives what they tell me is - they don't care about the WB or Gaza, but the Arabs don't want peace and they want all of Israel. The path to changing peoples minds is both sides to say aloud they want peace, like it was in 2000, and not looking for people to blame. Then, it's about actually negotiating and accepting the peace offered, which is where my criticism of Palestinian leaders is.
People are people, some are radicals, some might be convinced, they are all the same at their core. I think enough can be convinced but damn it's hard with western leftists telling Palestinians to never negotiate and fight till the end.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Your first paragraph just sounds like indoctrination. If Palestinians want all of Israel for themselves and every Jew dead why don’t more than like 1% of Palestinians fight for Hamas?
Has the Palestinian Authority not been cooperating closely with Israel for years? Will Israel claim Palestians don’t want peace until every individual Palestinian stops resisting?
lightmaker918@reddit
I'm not inventing this off the top of my head, it's pspcr polling, both sides prefer all of it in an ethnostate at the moment. There was a time where 2 SS was more popular.
They have, despite maintaining the pay for slay policy, paying up to 10% of it's expenses due to this policy. But the key part the PA didn't do is actually accept the peace offered. I'm very annoyed this wasn't solved in 2000 or 2008 when it was possible and relatively easy.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Hey you know this is actually really refreshing to hear. Obviously i know there are still reasonable people living in Israel but I don’t think a lot of us are finding you guys in the comments sections
tlvsfopvg@reddit
He hold the majority opinion in Israel. Most Israelis want peace with Palestine. We have been trying to get them to accept a two state solution since the 1920s. You have been brainwashed to think that Israelis want war.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
So what happened at the Oslo accords? And Taba?
I don’t think you can put the blame on just one side for frustrating efforts at peace. I think we have two sides that feel like they shouldn’t have to be the bigger person. Maybe the Israeli left wants peace but you might want to talk with Likud and the settlers about it
tlvsfopvg@reddit
According to Bill Clinton what happened at Olslo was Israel and Palestine had come to an agreement and then Arafat backed out without explicit action.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
I was referring to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.
tlvsfopvg@reddit
Uh huh
lightmaker918@reddit
It's very refreshing on my end aswell as an Israeli flaired user to be able to share viewpoints and respectfully disagree, kudos on that. Far too many people in this conflict want one side or the other to be destroyed, we should be looking for solutions that make sure a positive outcome for both people who aren't going anywhere.
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Its quite difficult to ensure the loud and violent ones don’t get their way isn’t it?
lightmaker918@reddit
Luckily the loudest most violent ones are only a tiny but loud minority, but I'm optimistic by nature
_bitchin_camaro_@reddit
Well here’s hoping we can both help shape up our governments
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
of course there is no official policy like that, the fact you have to walk that far back to try and defend this shows how fundamentally deep in the red you are. That is a back against the wall example to try and defend with.
On the other hand you don't even need that policy, when there are so few repercussions for doing it, in the open, with plenty of video proof of it happening, but NOTHING happening to the guilty.
If I was taken hostage no I would not want a hundred innocent people to die for me to be released. What a disgusting arrogant view, to think your life is worth more than theirs. Of course, so many of your Rabbi's and Politicians openly call all Palestinians dogs to be killed and raped, so its not that surprising.
lightmaker918@reddit
I wouldn't want Hamas to get away with kidnapping people, that's a sure fired way to make sure it pays out for them to continue kidnapping people. You might be a pacifist idealogue, I'm a realist, I don't have the luxury.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
Israel is holding orders of magnitude more hostages, people held without charge, then mysteriously dying in prison never to have their bodies released, or being let go without charges months or years later... missing limbs or maimed in countless other ways, half starved to death.
If Israel agreed to release everyone, in exchange for HAMAS doing the same, I would be for that. But lets not pretend who is instigating this.
Every day Israel steals people from the street, every day their soldiers stand idly when a Palestinian family went out for food and now their home is occupied by settlers against the law even for Israel, every day they annex more of the West Bank, every day they enforce apartheid, every day Israel trains their forces by intentionally targeting innocent people and raiding their home in the middle of the night, their children at gun point, then abducting someone they know is innocent and releasing them miles away..
...every day Israel does this, they are asking for retaliation.
lightmaker918@reddit
Dude Hamas doesn't get to walk in, kill 1200 people, take 200 more, and get to go back to status quo. Hamas ruling the strip is unacceptable after this war, and any sane person under the circumstances would agree. I'm really not sure what there to argue here.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
You are giving HAMAS reasons to do this EVERY DAY. You literally kill peaceful protesters by shooting them or driving over them with bulldozers. What are they supposed to do to get their people back?
2/3 of the people killed were Soldiers, Israel can't even comprehend that level of not killing civilians. They justify dropping bunker buster bombs knowingly killing a 100 people to maybe get one HAMAS member.
Literally ANYTHING you point to, I can point to Israel doing it 2x 5x 10x 100x WORSE. Along with countless things that HAMAS have never done.
By your own logic and measure Israel is many times worse the HAMAS.
lightmaker918@reddit
Woah there what?
And you do know Israel detains people who committed crimes, not randoms from the street. "Just want their people back" give me a break, they wanted their terrorists with blood on their hands back to reinforce their organization.
1/3rd were soliders on Oct 7th, and that's simply because they didn't find any more civilians to murder.
You're not giving me any pragmatic way, what Israel is doing seems to work pretty well so far, the north is quiet, Hamas is returning hostages, and soon it'll disappear. I hope you can understand that life for Palestinians and the region in general will be better when Hamas is gone from power.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
give me a break, you've been raping, killing Palestinians, stealing their homes and land looooong before HAMAS... you'll invent another reason to keep doing so without them.
There are holes in everything you say.
I can share proof of countless uncharged people that were detained, and often came back battered and maimed.... if they were released at all, never charged, and never had their bodies released. Guilty of nothing.
Every response you have has conveniently skipped over reading most of what I say, and you've been incapable of even responding to what I say. Always pushing back goal posts, and responding with unrelated tangents or redirects.
I've always wondered what kind of cognitive dissonance allowed German civilians to stand idly by with atrocities happening next door. The brain preventing themselves from seeing the horrors directly in their eyes. But speaking to you is terrifyingly exactly how that happened.
lightmaker918@reddit
You've been so wrong when you said 2/3rds are militant casualties in Hamas' invasion on Israel. You're not the most astute analyst I've seen, it doesn't surprise me that you've come to wrong conclusions regarding this whole conflict aswell.
X-XIQ@reddit
Address the detainees being tortured. Fuck
lightmaker918@reddit
I'm not about to play whack a mole with whataboutism when we both don't have the facts. I'm talking about the larger scope of things that solves all the bad details of this conflict, on both sides.
Funtycuck@reddit
The sniping babies claims verified by two of the largest medical aid orgs in the world alongside multiple testimonials from international drs who volunteered in Gaza?
Dont be a weasel word shit and say what you mean, you dont care and hide behind a lie that theres no evidence each time sharting out excuses for why we cant trust MSF.
Its funny how apart from Israeli atrocities how MSF is never considered controversial.
lightmaker918@reddit
Medical organizations can't determine intent, nor can deduce that from bullet wounds, that can be from machine gun fire. You'll just eat up whatever the propoganda says without using your brain will you.
Funtycuck@reddit
They can verify that huge proportions of gun shot wounds that they were attempting to treat on children were high calibre and single shots to the centre chest or head.
The alternative is that all the drs are wrong and that Israeli's are just indiscriminately shooting everything casualties be damned.
Israeli's seem ao radicalised its going to take an invasion to deprogram your awful fascist country.
lightmaker918@reddit
Yes snipers are having contests on how many fucking babies they can hit in the head.
God how fucking gullible someone must be to believe such a goddamn blood libel based purelu on hearsay from a doctor. Where's the videos, where's the images, if it's policy where's the thousands of cases, where are the blinds??? Entire families are left intact but babies are sniped to the head.
Idiocracy, the internet makes me sad for our species.
Boided@reddit
Blood libel? hahaha what a joke
lightmaker918@reddit
You're not being attacked worldwide based on your nationality because people are making up lies about your country and people. You're a joke.
Boided@reddit
Thanks I'll take that as a compliment. Can I ask, do you believe apartheid in South Africa was a good thing? Why was your country allied only with white South Africa?
You label any and all Palestinian as terrorists, but forget how was your country formed again? Remind me again, how many Zionist paramilitaries did it take to to form Israel?
Why did the British disarm the Palestinians but not the Zionists eh? The Irgun was a predecessor to the current ruling party, correct me if I'm wrong please.
Listen your country was built on violence, this is why Israel will never make peace. My country is far from being right for its colonial past but at least we work together under one banner. Why can't Israel form a single government with the Palestinians? Oh right it's because they're a racist country built on expanding through illegal settlements to control any and all resource and extract to its allies.
I'm going to predict you won't reply to any of my points and will attack my character as I've seen you do with the majority of previous comments in this thread, thanks mate love ya <3
lightmaker918@reddit
Well it wasn't the only one, it was allied with most of the western world, we all share values.
I don't label all Palestinian as terrorists, stop putting words in my mouth.
That's such a weird talking point. Begin was Irgun and was the head of the Likud, doesn't mean the Likud was born out of Irgun. The PA was also born from the PLO, does it mean it's a terrorist organization now aswell?
You think Jews would feel safe being a minority in an Arab majority country after being kicked out and pogromed? After seeing what they're capable of on Oct 7th. No thanks, I'm fine without major changes, they can get a state and rule themselves as they see fit, as long as they're peaceful.
It was a weird mix of conspiracy shit, malformed arguments and racism for good measure sparkled in. You gave me an ick, but I knew you would from the first message.
Boided@reddit
Eh? Do you deny Israel as being a racist apartheid state? Jews have been living in Arab majority countries for centuries, what's the issue here?
So Israel shared values with Apartheid South Africa but not anymore, eh? I'm aware Israel was critical of apartheid for a time but then they became more extreme in their views.
There you go attacking my character as promised, ta
Listen, we all know the history of Israel. But you can't just sit and pretend that encouraging people of the Jewish faith and culture to migrate to a country and form its own separate government in a land which is inhabited at the time won't cause any issues.
Then, while Israel claims to have the moral high ground it commits atrocity after atrocity. It's the continued cycle of violence which upsets me, illegal settlements, complete destruction of the land, infrastructure, people, plants, and animals in Gaza. Dehumanisation, complete backing of an Imperial state, holding people in disgusting conditions with no due process.
Then Israel always come back to 'we lived here 3000 years ago, the land is ours'. Bro 3000 years ago my people were the dominant culture in the European peninsula, that doesn't give me any right to any of the land there. What about before then, eh? And before that?
It's all because there's no moral argument to the displacement of people from a land to claim it as your own. usa did the same shit with manifest destiny, I can't see much of a difference tbh.
Funtycuck@reddit
Rambling fascist apologia
anders_hansson@reddit
I am also skeptical to these statements in general. However if this is true, it's pretty damning (it would be harder to make up, if the video exists and can be connected to the time and place):
lightmaker918@reddit
Do you have a link to the video?
anders_hansson@reddit
Nope
lightmaker918@reddit
Here's the video, second video in the link, the ambulances seems crushed but not "burried in sand". https://skwawkbox.org/2025/04/01/video-un-red-crescent-convoy-recovers-bodies-of-executed-paramedics-and-rescue-workers/
If the ambulance was indeed carrying militants like the IDF spokesperson claimed I don't see any "cover up" attempt. The IDF literally arranged for the bodies to be retrieved.
anders_hansson@reddit
Thanks for the link
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
It happened. Are you going to renounce Zionism now?
lightmaker918@reddit
Lol, I'll completely flip positions and think my entire country needs to be destroyed and millions of people genocided and ethnically cleansed because some dude shot some people.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
That’s not really you swapping positions, that’s just you continuing what you already believe but applied to your enemies.
Maybe you should try not being genocidal instead.
lightmaker918@reddit
Not sure I understood what you meant, you're being genocidal.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Yes, you don't support genocide, you simply deny tht it's happening, which incidentally is also what the Nazi do regarding the Holocaust. Does it make you feel comfortable, as a Jewish person, to know that you're adopting the same excuses that Nazis do?
lightmaker918@reddit
Was the Iraq war a genocide aswell? Where 90% of people killed were civilians. Or the Iran Iraq war, where half a million civilians were killed.
Israel has the capacity to kill a million people yet all we see are 50k for a war of over a year, with atleast a third of them being militants.
It's simply stupid the way you've convinced yourselves of something, and we all know if similar amounts of actual genocide, the one we got a sneak peak of on Oct 7th, were happened upon Israelis you would be silent.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Does whataboutism make you sleep better at night?
ParagonRenegade@reddit
You’re being genocidal with all the murder, but i guess it’s all equivalent
lightmaker918@reddit
God dang it, you're convincing me with your genocidal arguments.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Pretending to be aloof and snarky when you support genocide doesn't impress anyone. You are amusing yourself in a monstrous way, and nobody else.
lightmaker918@reddit
Nah yeah, genocide. Definitely
Genocide
ParagonRenegade@reddit
We already know your cruel, ignorant opinion, no need to repeat it.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
I see, you're TOTALLY open to changing your position if you're shown evidence that your country regularly engages in terrorism, war crimes and other various atrocities... you simply opt to not believe the evidence you are shown.
lightmaker918@reddit
What evidence? You're memeing.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
You can lie to me but you can't lie to yourself. And you're the one you'll have to live with for the rest of your life.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
They live in a world where the "international community" allows them to get away with war crimes and crimes against humanity. If you look around, it's the exact same world you live in.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
That's terrible, the international community should only let Hamas get away with war crimes and crimes against humanity.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
I was wondering when a fascist would chime in to defend Israel’s crimes by making a whatabout khamas
Turns out concentration camp militias like Hamas have less moral culpability than the military which created and enforced the concentration camp turned genocide death camp. Who knew.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I'm not a fascist, that's what I don't support a fascist entity like Palestine.
If you say so. I think Israelis and Palestinians are both equally capable of acting morally and should be treated equally when they don't.
Mohwi@reddit
Why isn’t Israel being treated equally to Palestine then?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Depends on the person. A lot of people project their own politics onto the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Leftists see it as a colonial struggle, right wingers as a clash of civilizations.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
When fascists don’t even recognize their overtly bigoted fascistic rhetoric 😂
I can only imagine how you would have sounded back during the lead up to ww2…
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I'm not a right winger. Like I said, I don't support fascist right wing states like Palestine.
indorock@reddit (OP)
This is 100% unadulterated bullshit, and you should know that.
But even if you somehow did believe this to be true, what relevance does it play? It's ok for Palestinian civilians and first responders to be mass executed just because you hate their leaders? What the fuck is wrong with you?
You racists really don't put any effort at all in hiding the fact you hate brown people.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
How is Palestine not fascist and right wing? Explain that.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
You would be funny if not for being so evil
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
If it's evil to not support a rapist fascist entity like Palestine, then call me evil.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
Not only do you clearly not understand what Palestine is, but you’re making these comments in favor of an apartheid/supremacist ethnostate committing genocide and ethnic cleansing led by a fascist ruler.
But yes, glad you recognize that you’re evil. Congrats. I hope you and every other genocide convention violator gets their time in court for their crimes 👍
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Palestine is an apartheid/supremacist ethnostate that committed genocide and you love it. You're in no position to point fingers at anyone else. You're far more evil than I am.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Except you don’t. Because you come here and shit on Hamas, sarcastically suggesting they get away with war crimes and crimes against humanity when they really don’t, while Israel does indeed get away with war crimes and crimes against humanity.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
You don't treat them equally either, you're defending Hamas as a "concertation camp militia". How has Hamas not gotten away with crimes against humanity?
JonBjSig@reddit
Thousands of Hamas members and anyone in their immediate vicinity have been killed in retaliation for Hamas' actions.
But you're right, some rando on the internet not condemning Hamas to the extent you want means Hamas has gotten away with it.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
And is that a good thing or a bad thing?
JonBjSig@reddit
Irrelevant to my point but what the hell.
My opinion is that anyone that kills innocents deserves to rot.
Feel free to infer whatever meaning you want from that.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Hamas killed innocents on October 7th. If you were in charge of the world, how would you have responded to that?
Militatti@reddit
Not by tying up and shooting a bunch of paramedics at point blank range and dumping them in a mass grave
reddit4ne@reddit
there were many perfectly good examples of how to react correctly, and how not to react correctly. ANd Israel choose the worst of the worst examples, and did worse than that.
A simple example of how to react correct, and susccessfully, was laid out in the U.S. response to 9/11 initially in Afghanistan. The later U.S. response (in Afghanistan and Iraq) is example of what NOT to do.
Initially, the U.S. relied on mostly a CIA run operation, to locate with pinpoint detail and perfectly executed pinpoint strikes that took out Taliban and Al-Qaeda within months. Without hardly a building in Kabul being bombed, within 2-3 months, Taliban was hiding in mountains of Tora Bora, as where remnants of Al-Qaeda, and even then they were being tracked down and Osama narrowly escaped death.
The Al-Qaeda network was completely dismantled, and the Taliban were hiding in caves, refusing to peak their heads out for one second cause they knew a predator was waiting above, and even back in 2004, those drones were amazingly good at picking out specific facial features and identifying specific fighters and high value targets.
Israel could easily have done the same with Hamas. Could have sent Hamas into the tunnels, hiding, without hardly touchiung a civilian building in Gaza. Any time a leader (whose facial features could be recognized by drone techbology that Israel already has) peaks his head out, send a missile up his hooha. Anytime a Hamas member, even low level, decides to venture out armed with anything more than a kitchen knife, again easy for Israeli drones to identify and send a missile.
Hamas would be taken care of. They cannot govern if they cannot leave their tunnels. Dont even send in any ground troops, dont repeat mistake Americans made in Afghanistan, take that victory for what it is. And that would be plenty a victory. Hamas forced underground (literally) is just like forcing Taliban to run for mountains and hide in caves. Its not just a pyrrhic victory, its an actual victory, and one that was easy for Israel to have.
JonBjSig@reddit
Again, irrelevant to the point I was making.
But I probably would have responded by having a nervous breakdown, yelling "I'm not cut out for this!" and then I'd bolt out of the room and hide in my closet. Part of the reason why I'm not in charge.
IdiAmini@reddit
You're losing karma quite quickly. Better go on worldnews and say something praising Israeli war crimes to get it back
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Imagine caring about karma
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Good thing for you that it isn’t real, otherwise your reincarnation would be a real doozy.
IdiAmini@reddit
I don't, but seeing as your fascist rhetoric gets you downvoted to oblivion, you will lose the ability to spread your hasbara bullshit on this sub. Just trying to look out for you fascists before it's to late
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
Fascist brain rot or hasbara brain rot? It’s hard to tell.
No surprise that y’all are the type to blame the people wanting to be free from supremacism/apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, kidnapping and torture, etc., more than the people doing those crimes against humanity. As is typical for supporters of fascism and has been that way longer than either of us have been alive.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Hamas committed crimes against humanity, even Human Rights Watch said so. And they're indisputably fascist, when was the last time they allowed an election?
No, I'm not blaming the Israelis.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
Thanks for helping prove my points. Ignorance, bigotry/supremacism, accusations in a mirror, it’s like y’all are playing Now That’s what I Call Fascism’s top hits
I hope you and all of your fascist buddies get back everything that y’all put into the world.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Any arguments besides "you're a fascist"? Didn't think so.
Answer my question. When was the last time Hamas allowed an election in Gaza? They took over the Strip in 2005, surely there must have been one since then.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
Why use many word when few word work?
I’m not even sure that you understand what fascism is. Sincerely. Because if you understood what fascism is you would understand how ignorant of a question it is that you’re asking.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I know exactly what fascism is. Do you? Or do you just use it as a label for anyone you don't like?
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
God, fascists and their accusation in a mirror rhetoric gets old so fast.
Fascists not then every accusation into a confession challenge? Impossible.
I’m not a huge fan of Hamas but they’re still by definition not fascist. There’s a reason why the world’s biggest ass kissers of Netanyahu’s Israel are overt fascists, because birds of a fascist feather flock together.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
How are they not fascist? Explain one thing about them that isn't fascist.
Boided@reddit
Well for one, they are working with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine which is a Marxist-Leninist Christian Socialist organisation. They work with the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine which is a Marxist-Leninist Maoist organisation.
Their extensive social welfare system along with charity to the poor is built on the basis of lifting people out of poverty is different to the fascist social welfare system which is tied to race beliefs.
Fascism is generally pro-imperial, no? Hamas and other organisations which have ruled in Palestine have been built on kicking out the imperials and building self-determination for the people living in Palestine.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Hamas was democratically elected to govern all of Palestine in 2006. They took over the strip in 2007 after Fatah, with the support of Israel and the US, attempted a coup against Hamas that failed. That’s why Hamas governs the Gaza Strip while the PA governs the West Bank.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804
Since Gaza and the West Bank don’t have separate elections (despite the aforementioned coup attempt creating separate governments), it’s not solely up to Hamas whether an election happens. Hamas supported an election in 2021, but due to Israel refusing to let voting in East Jerusalem, Abbas postponed the election indefinitely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election
your_red_triangle@reddit
1) your Hasbara sucks.
2) your stawman argument sucks
3) you're a bigot and support a terrorist state.
congrats you played yourself
whater39@reddit
Well if the opposition party tried an American/Israeli backed coup d'etat by Fatah maybe I'd not hold elections. That's on those people for trying a coup d'etat, instead of letting Hamas trying to govern.
Israel immediately cut of tax revenues to the West Bank, because of a fair elections in Gaza didn't elect the party Israel liked. Even though Israel played a direct role in getting Hamas popular to begin with
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Fascists always have a reason not to have elections.
whater39@reddit
Wow that's acting like a coup d'etat is nothing burger.
Israel's stated intent for the blockade is to stop weapons from coming into to Gaza. Then the hypocrisy to allow weapons into Gaza for a coup d'etat. Then Israel Hasbara spins that coup d'etat as if the party in power did it, which goes against the definition for the word.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Hamas allowed an election in 2021, but Abbas postponed it indefinitely after Israel refused to allow voting for Palestinians in East Jerusalem. Hamas took the position that they should go ahead with the vote anyways. And Abbas may have also postponed fearing Hamas would win again.
Stubbs94@reddit
Even when it's documented Israeli crimes against humanity it's all Khamas eh?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Documented by whom? Gazan officials, who lied a dozen times before breakfast?
Have you seen Hamas's own casualty numbers that recently came out? 70%+ combat-aged men. So much for the "70% of the casualties are women and children" lie. If they're lying about that, what else are they lying about?
MuteTitan77@reddit
All those men were active combatants? Interesting the phrasing you use is "combat-aged men".
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
No, they weren't all active combatants.
valentc@reddit
So why did you use it as a gotcha? You're still saying Israel murdered innocent civilians just because they were military age.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I'm not saying that at all.
Is the new cope that Hamas and company lied when they said Israel was indiscriminately bombing and lied when they said 70% of the death are women and children, but are totally telling the truth with the new talking point that Israel is intentionally murdering innocent military aged men? LMAO.
yoweigh@reddit
What is it that you're actually trying to say, then?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
That Hamas' own numbers violated their narratives and nothing that comes out of Gaza should be trusted and taken at face value. Including this story above.
yoweigh@reddit
Show me these supposed numbers. Your previous link was citing UN tallies that were independently verified, not Hamas. Stop conflating them.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Why would you provide the source for what you are disputing, but not the source of what you are claiming?
IdiAmini@reddit
Because the source is jpost probably, quoting the IDF probably. All lies, as is every comment of his
your_red_triangle@reddit
you should learn to read. why did you link your ~~hasbara~~ Kamas casualty figures?
talking about lying where's these 40 beheaded babies? Can you link that too.....
yeah thought so
Stubbs94@reddit
"all Palestinian men are terrorists who deserve to die" -McAlpine Fusiliers. I bet you don't even know the story behind your fucking name.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Gaza has been completely leveled and hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed you dumb motherfucker.
MuteTitan77@reddit
Ideally no one should get away with war crimes. Seems you're more upset Israels getting called out on them than the fact they happened in the first place.
modianoyyo@reddit
yanks speaking about other people's crimes lol
imagine having such little shame.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
What country are you from, with such clean hands?
modianoyyo@reddit
one that hasn't killed half a million iraqis, is not instrumental in the deaths of tens of thousands in the biggest genocide of the 21st century, and not a warmonger in general that justifies the crimes of their junior partners in crime.
SoftDrinkReddit@reddit
Now, to be fair, " International community "
It's mostly America doing this shit as long as they are standing behind Israel they are literally untouchable
If any of the Arab neighbours tried to do anything, the US would swiftly bomb them back into the StoneAge
It's really annoying, but unless we can flip us government position on Israel, nothing will change
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
France, Germany, and the UK are still selling weapons to Israel. The United States is not solely to blame.
SoftDrinkReddit@reddit
yes hence why i said mostly not solely
see the weapons selling is a big deal but the point i make is if an Arab nation Attacked israel proper invasion wise America would be the country to use military force to stop whoever that is
ruscaire@reddit
With the diplomatic enablement of most of the key western states.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Not really because I'd be thrown in jail if I behaved that way.
torn-ainbow@reddit
Israel has poisoned it's own soul. Occupation and brutality has changed the Palestinian people; but it's also made Israelis who they are today. You can't do that to others over generations and not have it change yourself. You can dehumanise the other; but you also lose part of your own humanity.
Exostrike@reddit
Agreed, Israel is driving itself off a cliff by Kahanist fascists and when the only thing they will accept (genocidal annexation) happens it's going to blow back across the entire global Jewish community whom many have rallied around the Israeli flag uncritically for far too long.
reddit4ne@reddit
This is what many European countries and American evangelicals have been hoping for all along.
The real antisemitism never really left Europe. But now theyve gotten themselves a tidier solution to their "jewish problem." Stick them in Israel--and let the Arabs deal with them.
Sooner or later, they figure, Israel will hang itself, and sooner or later the Arabs will catch up, and then Israel will only have whatever good relationships it has built for itself in the region to save it. Which apparently is almost none, so nothing will save Israel.
Everybody else can see this coming from a mile away, but the Zionist Israelis are too arrogant to understand, and the rest of Jewish community has not yet comprehended the dangers to their own self-preservation that militant Zionism poses.
ruscaire@reddit
My understanding of this thought process is that God has brought them this far and he will bring them on again. It’s just another phase in their external struggle for hegemony.
5ma5her7@reddit
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
moonorplanet@reddit
It never had a soul to begin with, what they have done is poison the souls of a lot of other nations.
tihs_si_learsi@reddit
Israel was literally founded by terrorist gangs. It was always poison.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
You know that finding turned out to be bullshit, right?
Zipz@reddit
Isn’t it interesting you come with actual evidence and they ignore it and they keep repeating the lie?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Where's the evidence? I actually watched the video, just a bunch of speculations. Why didn't Israel allow the UN to investigate?
Zipz@reddit
You know the tweets of Palestinians literally saying they are burying people in the hospital because of the blockade before the raid on the hospital maybe ?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Still not sure what was the point. That the mass grave was fake? Or that it's actually good for Israel that they killed so many people that mass graves had to be used? Or that Palestinians used to bury people in it even before the IDF arrived?
Zipz@reddit
You guys make it seem like Israel went into the hospital killed everyone and then buried their bodies
When in reality they were already dead before Israel got the hospital and if anything hamas bound and killed some people and then buried some of them.
Do you get it now ?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
No, it was supposed to be a proof that Israel didn't bury any bodies with hands tied behind their back. Or atleast a proof that Israel didn't bury anyone? Not sure what the point of posting that video was. I certainly don't see any proof.
Zipz@reddit
Its proof of the graves were there before. It shows that the people claiming israel went in there and killed everyone and buried all of them are lying.
It’s not complicated
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Okay? Where's the proof that Israel didn't murder people? Just the fact that the grave existed before?
Zipz@reddit
Again people are claiming Israel came in there and killed everyone and buried those people. That’s what people here are claiming.
In reality they were already buried and israel came in and unburied them looking for hostages
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Who? That's not the point of this post.
Proof that more people weren't burried?
Zipz@reddit
It’s the top comment so it’s extremely relevant and I wasn’t even the one who brought it up
Isn’t interesting the top comment on this entire thread is pushing a lie ? Even funnier the comment correcting him is the most downvoted.
Why are we not allowed to talk about this ?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Who? That's not the point of this post.
Proof that more people weren't burried?
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
because there are so many cases of them intentionally shooting civilians its insane, they literally shot their own people, hostages coming to soldiers for help, wearing no shirts, in the open, walking slowly, obviously unarmed, calling to them in their language.... they mag dumped them, stopped for a second, then continued mag dumping them.
Zipz@reddit
Weird its almost as if the situation the top comment put is more comparable. It’s also funny that he tried to paint it different than what happened. Yet you seem to have no problem with lies.
So it’s interesting you won’t take evidence in a 1 to 1 comparison that someone else brought up because it shows what actually happened.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
a downvote and nothing to rebuttal, as expected
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
a downvote and nothing to rebuttal, as expected
frizzykid@reddit
Brother sharing a link to an article that just says Palestinians want the UN to investigate the mass graves is not evidence.
Wanting the UN to perform an investigation when you are dealing with genocide is a normal thing.
Zipz@reddit
So are you just going to ignore the video evidence and the twitter statements that are made well before Israel went into the hospital?
valentc@reddit
Why would it be bad for the UN to investigate. Twitter statements and one video don't prove anything. Especially when you're blaming Hamas just because Israel said so.
Zipz@reddit
Yes actually it does prove a lot when people say Israel made the graves.
Weird it’s funny everyone here has no problem blaming Israel. Yet when i correct them you seem upset at me not them.
It’s interesting how so many people all of a sudden don’t care about Palestinians when Israel can’t be blamed?
Funny how this sub works.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
Israel doesn't let anyone else substantiate their claims, I wonder why....
frizzykid@reddit
The article did not have any video evidence or Twitter statements.
Zipz@reddit
I don’t even know how to answer that……
It’s in the video holy shit
frizzykid@reddit
The video nor article says what you claimed. You're just taking israels word for it.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Ah, it’s you again, lying with all your might.
Zipz@reddit
Go on what lies ?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Ah, the other liar has arrived.
Go back into your cave, nobody’s got time for you, I’ve spent plenty of time arguing with you and posting sources, facts and exposing your lies only for you to either abandon the thread, post lies, try to move the goalposts and whatabout your way out of it.
Zipz@reddit
It’s funny you talk about facts and sources…
Did you not watch the video ?
It’s funny when israel can’t be blamed all of sudden you don’t care about Palestinians. Pretty sad and telling
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Hush now boy, noone’s got time for your yapping.
Zipz@reddit
It’s funny you attack and gaslight me then you ignore the video with evidence.
Funny how that works. Ya I’m the one ignoring things here LOL
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
😴
Zipz@reddit
Thanks for proving you don’t have point. Thanks for the laugh 😂
qjxj@reddit
If mass graves of ambulances with patient in them didn't do the trick, then this probably won't either.
Hazer_123@reddit
Take a small look at r/worldnews for comments under headlines like these, and your point is proven.
hamburgercide@reddit
So nobody saw it happen and they’re taking the word of an ambulance dispatcher who just happens to be fluent in Hebrew that Israelis did this? And they’re calling it an “eyewitness” testimony. Meanwhile we have video of Palestinian attacked on 10/7 doing things like bashing unconscious peoples heads in with shovels and people will still call it justified resistance.
protonpack@reddit
If you came into my home and attacked my family I would be willing to bash your head in with a shovel. Do you feel differently? Would you lie down and die like a coward?
Likewise - if people came to my land and the only recourse I had was terrorism, I would be willing to play that part if I already viewed my life as forfeit. Anything less and I'd be submitting to their will.
hamburgercide@reddit
So you’re saying everything Israel does is justified because of 10/7 and hundreds of years of persecution and conquest by Christians and Muslims? Because that type of logic is highly flawed
protonpack@reddit
No bro, they're still taking Palestinian homes. They're still doing the Nakba.
The same way that I would fully understand a Ukrainian, rather than dying in a trench, going across the border to kill any Russians they can. The same way that if my country is annexed by America I would rather go across the border into upstate New York and kill people before dying myself, rather than getting pointlessly killed by a US drone trying to make some sort of stand.
This is what people do when they are up against a more powerful opponent who makes them feel as if their lives are already forfeit.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
And what purpose would that serve, other than revenege? Revenge will never end. This was a lesson learned time and time again throughout history including among other liberation movements. Even Rashid Khalidi, a paragon of pro-Palestinian advocacy, argues strongly against it.
In effect, you are taking the Palestinians' agency away from them - you are infantilizing them. You can recognize the circumstances that could lead to wanting revenge without justifying. In the words of an author I came to like:
"For my own part, I try to understand the structural constraints that encourage a certain type of violence without justifying it and without falling into the fallacy that there was no choice. Hamas could have just attacked military positions for instance, but nearly 80% of its victims on October 7th were civilians. That’s a choice – one that even its spokesmen seem to recognize as a strategic blunder given their repeated, incredulous insistence that they did not attack civilians. It is really a topsy turvy world when Hamas is trying to deny these actions while their online cheerleaders continue to insist that attacking civilians is both necessary and just. But it’s also morally bankrupt to blame Gazans for the Israeli airstrikes that are killing them in unprecedented numbers, as if Hamas’s election victory seventeen years later constitutes a popular mandate to massacre Jews."
protonpack@reddit
I'm telling you - my nation is being directly threatened right now, and if my life is turned upside down and ruined by it I will not give a shit about anything except hurting people.
That's why it's incumbent on the group who holds power to not put people in that situation. If you leave people with nothing left to lose, don't expect them to act normal. How many Israelis genuinely feel like they have nothing left to lose? The situation is not the same on both sides.
michaelas10sk8@reddit
Ok, so you are arguing that blind revenge is.. somehow practical in this situation?
If you nation is being directly threatened by a far more powerful adversarity, whom you have no chance of defeating on the battlefield, it makes no sense to directly attack it. And especially not to attack its civillians.
Your options are to try to cut your loses by means of an unfavorable agreement, or to flee, with the former being more preferable.
And yet when in 2000 Palestinians were offered state comprising the Gaza Strip, 94 to 96 percent of the West Bank (with the lost 4 to 6 percent to be offset by Israeli territory to be ceded to the Palestinians), half of Jerusalem, and half, or more, of Jerusalem’s Old City—they rejected it. No, not just Arafat - his decision was widely celebrated, and had very few critics in Palestinian society. Why? Even if you maintain it was somehow all a ruse by Israel (despite having successful peaceful with Jordan and Egypt), it is still a far more likely to work than any alternative.
protonpack@reddit
Is it practical to turn essentially every school and hospital in Gaza to rubble? Are you saying there is no element of blind revenge going on in Gaza and the West Bank?
If it ever came to it (hopefully never) and Israel was being overrun by other Muslim nations, you'd just leave? Or would you stay and fight?
What I've been saying this whole thread is that I have been grappling with these same questions as my country's sovereignty is threatened. And in a situation where my options are stand and fight a more powerful enemy who can kill me beyond line of sight, or engage in insurgency, I'm picking the insurgency to hurt the country that is taking mine over. And many other people with much less to lose than me have been put in that position by Israel.
hamburgercide@reddit
I’m sorry but maybe there’s a cultural difference here. When my community was forced out of Iran we didn’t waste time with violent resistance we moved somewhere were we could be successful and make change over time. Same thing happened during and after the Holocaust. The amount of violent resistance in these countries by Jews was minimal. So I’m sorry but I disagree. Also I know for a fact that if the tables were turned and they had the firepower Arabs would have completely annihilated every single Jew there. I know this because it’s happened
protonpack@reddit
Maybe if you guys fought instead of running, Iran wouldn't be terrorizing Israel now. Fighting beat the Nazis, not running. Some people are willing to fight even without US help.
protonpack@reddit
I just want to point out one more time for you:
I'm talking about MY life being ruined. MY home being taken. You talk about persecution hundreds of years ago aay justification for murder.
You're a piece of trash.
Kerking18@reddit
Yeah you fuced up therey dude. For Reference https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
Faar more land was taken from jews and faar more jewsish people displaced then israel ever has.
What situation you describe and what you deycribe you would do is litteraly what the jews in israel are facing right mow. You just made the percect justification for the jews.
protonpack@reddit
This is not a numbers game. The expulsions done after the Nakba and creation of Israel are horrible, but why didn't they happen earlier?
I don't like Muslim theocracies and I don't support them killing people. I don't support the existence of any ethnostate. The Palestinian genocide is more undeniable than ever, and is accelerating. The annexation of more territory in accordance with the idea of Greater Israel is likewise accelerating. These are all negative things to me.
Kerking18@reddit
While it is not a numbers gane, agreed, it still is the very situation you described
protonpack@reddit
The expulsion of Jews from Arab countries following the creation of Israel is not the same as what I was talking about.
What I said is that in a situation where the only options are terrorist insurgency or certain death against a more powerful enemy, I'd rather give my life less pointlessly and do the terrorist insurgency.
hamburgercide@reddit
You’re a piece of trash. My family lived in Iran for 2000 years. 100 years ago we were all forced to convert to Islam under threat of exile. Then in 1979 the revolution happened and MY life was ruined MY home was taken. So no I’m not talking about persecution 100 years ago AH.
1,000,000 mizrahi Jews were expelled from Muslim countries AFTER the nakba. The Arabs and Muslim all across the Middle East stole FAR more land from Jews than vice versa. And now you expect Israel to give up more land in a place where all of our archaeological heritage sites exist literally in the language we still use (the only one not erased by Arabic and Islam) in exchange for nothing.
protonpack@reddit
Your country was not taken from you, your country was changed by the same political forces that now back Israel against more people unable to defend themselves. Now you're on the same side as the guys who preferred to see Iran taken over by fundamentalists, rather than keep its resources for the people.
If you think comparing the actions of Israel to fundamentalist Muslim theocracies makes Israel look better, think again. It's a race to the bottom. But you don't give a fuck, you have the weapons and you have plenty to lose. What do your local schools and shops look like? Are they rubble?
hamburgercide@reddit
My country? You mean Iran? Which is now the Islamic republic of Iran and looks completely different? My country was changed by radical Islam with help by imperialists, just like all of North Africa and Middle East was. Palestine was never a sovereign country for anyone to lose, but even if it was at least more than half the Palestinians got Jordan — in sorry it’s ruled by an outsider. The nakba is a tragedy but compared to being displaced thousands of miles it should not have been as traumatic as it has become when Palestinians were forced to become perpetual refugees and simultaneously rejected by and armed by the Arab world. If Jews treated each other the way the Arabs have treated Palestinians we would have ceased to exist years ago. The only way forward for Palestinians and Jews is together and until people realize that it’s going to be perpetual war. I and many people like me worked hard on this for decades and it all went back to square 1 on October 7th. How could it not? Those people in the kibbutz were the most far left pro Palestinian people in Israel. They fought to allow more and more Gazans to get work permits. And some of those same people ended up giving intel to Hamas or whoever the fuck invaded and knew exactly where to go to kill civilians. Everyone is terrified to ever trust anyone again. Even the Arabs in Israel are scared. It’s an utter disaster and has ruined decades of work. It’s also empowered Netanyahu who was on his way out right before the war with the level of protests.
I’ll remind you that Palestinians were part of the last ruling coalition in Israel for the first time. THATS how you move forward. If that coalition wouldn’t have crumbled due to infighting, if Israel and Saudis would have normalized, and if 10/7 wouldn’t have happened just so Iran could interfere with Sunni Arab power moves, we would have been closer to peace instead of being as far away as we are now.
For what it’s worth my ideal future is everyone in the same country with equal rights. Hope we get there
protonpack@reddit
We are talking about an area still affected by imperialism and colonialism. Israel is building Greater Israel and intends to complete the expulsion of Palestinians, assisted by the imperialist US who has begun threatening the sovereignty of my country.
Oh, so it doesn't count as imperialism? Do you realize Putin says the same thing about Ukraine as a sovereign nation?
For the rest of your post, it's not just about Oct 7. Maintaining a total blockade on Gaza is an act of war. West Bank settlements were still expanding. There has never been any sort of justice or accountability.
9/11 happened and obviously it was horrible. What came after it was horrible. But people will recognize the part that US foreign policy had to play in it happening. Same goes for Oct 7 IMO.
hamburgercide@reddit
What country was taken from you??
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
How much does Israel pay for these comments?
hamburgercide@reddit
It’s actually 2 different groups. Mossad pays 3 shekels per comment and the Israeli Troll Foundation (ITF) pays 666 shekels per downvote.
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
A Zionist being antisemitic? Must be a day ending in y.
Keoni9@reddit
It's not so far-fetched for a Gazan to be fluent in Hebrew when it's much easier for an Arabic speaker to learn compared to English, and has been a compulsory subject in Gaza's schools since 2013.
Also, you're ignoring the two other witnesses:
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
No amount of evidence ever matters to a Zionist, what Israel claims will always be treated as reality no matter how irrational believing it is.
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