Friends with Benefits? | TheaterFire

Friends with Benefits?

Posted by AuntyEmfromOz@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 181 comments

So, are we ready for a debate? Please respect other people's opinions, and justify your opinions with examples or whatever from the episodes. The question is: were Xena and Gabrielle friends, best friends, family, partners, or lovers? Could they have been Friends with Benefits?

For those believing they were in a sexual relationship, were they monogamous, in an open relationship or maybe even a throuple with Ares? Or were they celibate......

Have at it.

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

.....I WISH I can say lesbian lover but lets be real

They're friendship goes BEYOND sexual gratification. Example: I have a friend, who's also gay, and he's my bff, my family, the person I can turn to when I need him. We cuddle, play footsies, we have slept in the same bed, and when its NYE we kiss at midnight. Everyone thinks we are bfs, but when they say that we look at each other and go "EWWWWWW". Sometimes you can find a soulmate who isnt someone you want to marry or sleep with, sometimes you just know it goes beyond all that.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Do you get jealous of your bff’s romantic/sexual relationships and tell people you can’t be with them because you’re meant to be with your bff forever?

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I do agree that lovers is not a strong enough word for Xena and Gabrielle’s relationship, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t part of it, as the show heavily implies and even basically confirms

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I disagree that the show "basically confirms" the relationship. To do that they would have have a proper kiss just for the sake of kissing, not to wake them from a year-long sleep, or save them from being under ice, or transferring water across to them. So, IMO, their relationship wasn't confirmed, though it was very strongly hinted at.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

They do a really good job of toeing the line for so long, but I actually think the bridge too far is Xena claiming that her boobs belong to Gabrielle in Many Happy Returns lmao. And that’s only talking about the sexual aspect. In every other way it’s more than confirmed that they are soulmates and life partners, which is a type of relationship.

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IseQween@reddit

Actually, Xena says, "These are spoken for" in reference to her bosom. My first interpretation was, "Hey, these are mine, keep your hands off," followed by "and Gabrielle has first dibs otherwise."

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

“Spoken for” is a term used when someone is taken (not single), it wouldn’t be used to describe one belonging to one’s self. What I guess makes it subtext and why it’s allowed in the episode, is that she doesn’t specifically say who they belong to, but you’d have to do a whole lot of hurdling to come up with it being anyone else. Not to mention like a minute later Gabrielle pinches Xena’s butt.

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IseQween@reddit

I saw this as another example of why we have so many different interpretations of what's said/done on XWP. From my frame of reference, "spoken for" simply means unavailable --already claimed, reserved -- whether by one's self or someone else. It's used for everything from shoes for sale or theater seats, to the romantic context you speak of. My intent was to distinguish between her words and the various assumptions about what she meant.

Someone who watches XWP solely for the action might argue Xena was pointing to her chest armor. Another person might believe she's referring to her attraction to Ares. I'm saying my personal Head Cannon assumes X&G are independent women who "own" themselves and have chosen to "belong with/to" each other however and for whatever reasons they see fit. I try not to judge other assumptions as more or less valid, just different and interesting to hear.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I mean yeah art is subjective, you can twist literally anything to to fit whatever narrative you want to hear. That doesn’t change the literal meaning of the line. How someone else chooses to hear it has nothing to do with how for me it makes the sexual relationship undeniable.

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IseQween@reddit

I don't believe any one of us has a lock on the "literal," "undeniable," "good faith" meaning that everyone else should embrace as their own. I like learning how other fans see the show similarly or differently than I do. It's meant being open to opinions I may disagree with, sharing my perspective and accepting they will think theirs is as valid as I do mine. If this implies to you some secret agenda to condone rejecting, erasing or twisting the "queer aspect" of XWP, I can only say that's never my intent, especially since it's a part of my personal Head Cannon.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I understand that, I wasn’t talking about your personal headcanon or possible others, my point is that there is a literal meaning to a lot of season 6 in that subtext rules no longer apply, and I think that allowing space for people to ignore that is not a good use of time.

There’s a lot to criticize with the people who made the show, for instance, Rob Tapert saying that he wanted to keep the relationship ambiguous for most of the seasons to respect parents who thought it was inappropriate for their kids to have to see (extremely innocent) queer love on tv, I know it’s a complicated topic in the context of the time the show was made, but I do think that was a Bad Thing. I just think that I wish more of the fandom was ready to discuss it in that way, instead of lingering on the idea that every interpretation is equally valid in the end.

Every headcanon is valid of course it is, but the show makes a distinct decision in season 6 and intentionally includes much more direct language, and I think that should be honored when discussing canon. Could they have done a better job? Absolutely, but it’s still a very big deal.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Ok, that's next on my re-watch list - I don't remember that being said in Many Happy Returns.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I just don’t think there’s much wiggle room for calling life partners who love each other more than anything not sapphic. The sex aspect is definitely the most subtextual part of their relationship, but it’s also not the ultimate thing that makes it a relationship.

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

nope, he always tells me when he's getting some D, esp.when he is overseas. My reply is always the same, WEAR A CONDOM lmao!!!

I think by season 6 is when they decided to be lovers, because by that point they had already lost everything they knew and loved and all they had was each other.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I think you might be describing a different kind of relationship then…

It’s certainly most undeniable in season 6, but the clues are there all along, and there isn’t really any change to their feelings, just how much the show decides to show us of them.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Good point. So once again we get back to everybody's own interpretations don't we, because although the show hinted at these things (fairly obviously to some of us), they never outright said it. That didn't happen until way after the series ended when the writers and actors etc. felt they could come out of the closet, in more ways than one, and express what had been implied. I'm not discounting anything they said after the series. Just find it interesting how, and even more interesting when, people decided (or not) that they were together, how ever you interpret that. Or maybe, it's simply a matter of some people are more open to the possibility and far less encumbered by teir own attitudes and therefore could see it more clearly early on.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I definitely think homophobia and biphobia have a lot to do with people not catching on earlier, and the show kind of relies on that to be able to keep telling the story without ringing too many warning bells. I’ve seen so many people say that as kids in the 90s they didn’t see it, but that watching now it’s extremely obvious. But I also definitely can understand having developed a perspective as a child making it difficult to see differently as an adult though.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Biphobia - new word for me. Didn't know it even existed but have now looked it up. I'm ever learning.........

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I think they relied on the idea that in the 90s a lot of people didn’t know about or didn’t believe in bisexuality, so the fact that there were male love interests at all worked as plausible deniability for those people, who may otherwise cause a fuss, to stop noticing or caring about the concurrent homosexuality.

I don’t know who involved was actually aware that they were doing this lol, but it certainly helped, given the number of (mostly old) posts of people saying “obviously they aren’t in love because they’ve both showed interest in men”.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I haven't been on Reddit long enough so probably missed all the "old" posts where people declared they weren't in love and therefore perhaps monogamous with each other, because they also were attracted to men. There's many different types of love. Part of me would like to debate bisexuality but I think that would raise far more conflict than just making suppositions about Xena and Gabrielle!

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Oh yeah I mean oooold, like I went back and read through a bunch of chat rooms from the 90s/00s lol. Personally I think Xena is pretty undeniably bisexual, but Gabrielle is more like a lesbian who went through a rough bought of compulsory heterosexuality and then got over it, which is how Steven Sears said he wrote her.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I wish I'd kept the old mailing list emails exchanged at the time Xena aired, but computers crash and people (like me) who don't do backups regularly, well.....life happens and you move on. I definitely agree that Xena is bisexual. As for Gabrielle? Perhaps she didn't realise she liked women until she actually liked one particular woman (tall....beautiful....piercing blue eyes) but again, does that make her a lesbian who just didn't know, or does it make her bisexual, because she attracted both males and females throughout the series. And, again, going back to Lin Qi, who was supposed to be a love interest of hers in Back in the Bottle (Season 5) - someone even posted (or sent me) a copy of them kissing - something that was cut from the final episode. .Interesting what Steven Sears said about writing her character. I wish I'd been pat of the American chat room circuit at the time

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Understandable perspective on Gabrielle, she definitely can be interpreted as bi. To backup my personal viewpoint — I think she’s a super romantic person who has been conditioned to believe she’s supposed to find a man, which leads to her spending a season searching far and wide and showing interest in anyone who looks twice at her, but every time she has the opportunity to take it farther, it doesn’t even seem to occur to her and she ends up going back to Xena. The closest anyone gets is Talus, who dies, and also whose potential romantic relationship with Gabrielle is… subtextual… For the most part people she shows interest in are protoXena’s who are “more acceptable” for how she’s been conditioned because they’re men. The last one being David, who she tries desperately to treat as Xena but ends up not being an actual option.

Then Perdicus is back, she’s no longer bored by him because he’s a soldier. She’s just had her gay awakening (Girls Just Wanna Have Fun) and it’s the perfect time to realize how she’s really feels about Xena. So she panics and retreats to “home” the first chance she gets (this how Steven described it). Nothing about her relationship with Perdicus rung particularly genuine, maybe it’s just bad chemistry, but it feels incredibly forced, which supports my interpretation very nicely. When Perdicus dies she has to deal with agonizing guilt and the loss of a childhood friend who she felt responsible for. Her grief does not last that long in the scheme of things.

Later in the season she loses Xena and regrets not telling her she loves her, which is a catalyst for a new stage in their relationship, and this is her first genuine relationship. It’s her deepest one, but it’s also the only one where they seem to relate to each other as proper couple.

I don’t know if Gabrielle is attracted to other women. I personally think she’s attracted to Najara, but as we’ve discussed, that’s debatable. But if Xena’s the only person she’s really genuinely attracted to, that also makes her a lesbian. The biggest issue for me honestly is Gabrielle displaying attraction to men in Blind Faith, but if she’s still wanting for something from Xena, which she is because the next episode is Ulysses, then I could see her comphet not being fully resolved.

As for Lin Qi, I touched on this in another response but in case you didn’t see it, Lin Qi is not a real love interest. He was added to the script while kurtzman and orci were in charge because they felt the need to scale back the subtext. Yes they filmed a kiss, but very importantly the reason the kiss is not in the episode is because Renee insisted it wasn’t in character for Gabrielle, as Xena was her soulmate who had a baby on the way and Gabrielle wouldn’t do that to her, it’s the exact same reason a kiss with Joxer was cut from Eternal Bonds. But there certainly was a push to reawaken Gabrielle’s interest in men in season 5 under the new leadership, but the person who knew the character best didn’t allow it to happen. So I hardly think it can be considered in canon. That said, I would bet that Renee would label Gabrielle as bisexual, I think her issue was more about monogamy and playing the character as having fully committed to Xena at the end of season 4.

So basically, I feel like the sharp drop off in interest in men is indicative of Gabrielle’s sexuality, but I’ll admit, being with Xena is also a big part of the reason for that. I just like to think she found what she was looking for and no longer had to pretend, because it’s similar to my experience, but someone with a different experience could definitely see it differently.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Interesting - I hadn't realised a kiss was cut from Eternal Bonds. And it obviously wasn't you who draw the perceived attraction between Ln Qi and Gabrielle to my attention many, many posts ago. I do recall it being said that Renee was the one who didn't think it was right for her character which is more a reflection on her commitment and faithfulness to Xena - not wanting to entertain a bit on the side with a male. In so many ways, I believe Gabrielle was far more committed to their relationship then Xena was. As I've said elsewhere, I think Xena used her "plans" to take advantage of her weakness for men on occasions. Is Gabrielle bi or not? If you think Renee would say Gabrielle was, then I'd be inclined to go with that. The question then becomes, after Xena died, if Gabrielle met a man who had all the qualities of Xena would she/could she have fallen in love with him?

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I think Xena is just as committed, she just enjoys it a bit when she gets to yank a man around. I’m sure one could argue Xena misses sex with men or something, personally I’m not interested in that explanation but I would understand it. But it doesn’t have anything to do with her deep devotion to Gabrielle. It’s arguable that Xena is the more committed one because she wants to die if Gabrielle dies, whereas Gabrielle is the one who is able to love without Xena. I don’t think this actually indicates a discrepancy in their commitment, I just think Gabrielle is emotionally stronger (she’s also the only one capable of killing her evil daughter). I think Renee would call Gabrielle bi because she likely played Gabrielle’s love for Perdicus as genuine and believes she really loved him, maybe it would canonize it for me if she did confirm that, but I tend to prefer Steven Sears’ perspective and he is also largely responsible for Gabrielle. I don’t think Gabrielle is falling in love with anyone else after Xena’s death so I definitely don’t think there’s a man in her future. I could maybe see her having casual flings with women, but for me I think she’s super over men.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I think Gabrielle can live without Xena because she believes there are greater goods to be done being alive. The same way Gabrielle is capable of killing Hope, for the greater good. Xena is more selfish on that end. I don't think Xena could kill Gabrielle even if she turned evil one day...

Xena is the type to die with Gabrielle out of guilt, 1) for not being good enough to prevent Gabby's death, and 2) Xena believes she should die for her sins. Not because of less devotion, the two character would have different motivation.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Apologies - I responded to a previous comment before reading this one. I think perhaps you're right. Casual flings with others but probably not another long-term committed relationship with anyone else, even if they were the spitting image of Xena but in a male, she would simply be trying to recreate or perhaps improve upon, her relationship with Xena. Poor Gabrielle.

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

I mean I have a fiancé, and he would get jealous that we would be cuddled up together watching Buffy or Xena, but I had to explain to him it's not sexual, no feelings of lust, it's just what we do even before I met him. He was there for me this way when I needed it most and he would continue to be after, eventually my fiancé accepted it once he got to know our friendship more.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

But for Xena and Gabrielle there absolutely would be something for the partner to be worried about. Not to mention that neither of them wants the other to be with anyone else.

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

Xena let Gabby marry Perticus. I know early seasons, but Gabby always had the random love interest.

Xena would never leave Gabby, but she let Gabby go and be her own person when she felt she had too. But in the end it was always them vs the world which I loved.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Perdicus is Gabrielle’s last male love interest, after a string of failed comphet trysts that she never allowed to go very far, that was all done by early season 2. The show seems to imply acceptance of their feelings for each other around mid season 2, and likely no actual discussion of it until early season 3 (both of them saying I love you directly to each other). After Perdicus, Gabrielle especially, was basically committed to Xena. She had one close call with Najara but ultimately chose Xena. Xena I do think realizes her feelings for Gabrielle before Perdicus, but in the instances where Gabrielle has other options she doesn’t feel she has a right to stand in her way because she thinks it’s what’s best for Gabrielle, she is always super jealous.

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

I dont think for a second she had feelings for Najara. She just admired her because she (thought) she was everything she'd hope Xena could be. Xena sure thought she did though, thats why, again, she lets her go to be happy with someone else.

and yeah your right it was around season 3 we see their relationship start (i think it started with the kissing of Autolocus possessed by Xena)

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Yeah I mean Gabrielle’s feeling for Najara are certainly open to interpretation. It is written in the style of a love triangle, as Gabrielle must choose between the two of them. But what her actual feelings are isn’t really explored by the text, and whether Gabrielle was capable of being seduced away from Xena at this point in the show is certainly highly debatable. Personally, I think she had some sort of feelings for Najara, in that she was looking for something more and Najara seemed to offer that, but I also don’t believe she was really considering leaving Xena. She wanted to explore what Najara had to offer because she was feeling lost, but the leaving Xena part was fully Xena-imposed, in her misguided attempt to protect Gabrielle.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I tend to think Gabrielle *was* attracted to Najara, for whatever reason, and if Xena hadn't returned after confronting Marat, may have decided she'd had enough of being dumped by Xena and could have made a life with Najara, until she realised she was a bit extreme. But as Najara said, how can Gabrielle forgive Xena for all her indiscriminate killing, but not forgive Najara who ony killed "bad" guys.

Also agree that Gabrielle's feelings for Xena were solidified in Destiny and, in her eyes, confirmed when Xena/Autolycus kissed her in that dreamscape, but did they talk about that later? It's the only kiss-kiss in the series but even then, it was in a dreamscape. A Day in the Life follows which shows them pretty much as a couple living together and not afraid of bickering with each other, so again, do these few episodes confirm they had transitioned to being lovers?

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Najara makes a lot of good points and I think she’s a really cool character! I am all for Gabrielle’s attraction to Xena being hypocritical because I think it just emohasizes their bond more.

For me everything that goes down in season 2 does indicate they have become lovers. But there’s also some throwaway dialogue in A Comedy of Eros (as well as the whole Ulysses debacle) which makes me think it may actually be more of a best friends with benefits situation until Xena is able to get the nerve up to tell Gabrielle how she really feels (something before The Debt).

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Thank you! I'm not saying they *were* friends with benefits, but they could have been. My personal headspace of course is that when you say you love someone and you're living with them as a household on the road, kind of (A Day in the Life), it makes very little sense to then comment on Palaemon (Blind Faith) such that it appears Gabrielle may have been attracted to him, if he hadn't kidnapped her. And then Xena gets all hot and heavy with Ulysses - does she do this because she's scared of admitting her feelings to Gabrielle? And speaking of The Debt II where Gabrielle is the first to say she loves Xena, did she say that to make sure Xena actually knew that she did love her, particularly considering the jealousy she realised in Forget Me Not?

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Yeah and A Comedy of Eros is a weird random comedy episode, but it does seem to deal with and get through Xena’s fear of love. She starts the episode saying love isn’t worth it and ends the episode saying it is, after basically schooling Draco on how to be someone who deserves Gabrielle. So in a weird way I think that kind of has to be a turning point for them. Also, Gabrielle indicates that she hasn’t fallen in love since Perdicus (which is not true, but something she could feel inclined to say to Xena if Xena is being coy about her own feelings). And the tension in A Day in the Life I think lends itself well to a couple that has something to get off their chest, but hasn’t figured out any solutions beyond fucking about it lol. It seems like likely have discovered that outlet, but admitting directly to each other that it’s love will take some psyching up, especially from Xena. Which is why Xena considers Ulysses, who is attractive and interesting to her (allegedly) but does not present much of a challenge in terms of how deep the feelings, not to mention it would mean Gabrielle has a chance of finding someone better than her, which is likely also part of Xena’s hesitation.

I think The Debt is probably not the first time they’ve said I love you, because Gabrielle knows well enough that Xena loves her at that point to know to be jealous of Lao Ma. But it likely wasn’t super long before then.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I tend to think Gabrielle *was* attracted to Najara, for whatever reason, and if Xena hadn't returned after confronting Marat, may have decided she'd had enough of being dumped by Xena and could have made a life with Najara, until she realised she was a bit extreme. But as Najara said, how can Gabrielle forgive Xena for all her indiscriminate killing, but not forgive Najara who ony killed "bad" guys.

Also agree that Gabrielle's feelings for Xena were solidified in Destiny and, in her eyes, confirmed when Xena/Autolycus kissed her in that dreamscape, but did they talk about that later? It's the only kiss-kiss in the series but even then, it was in a dreamscape. A Day in the Life follows which shows them pretty much as a couple living together and not afraid of bickering with each other, so again, do these few episodes confirm they had transitioned to being lovers?

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Actually Perdicus wasn't Gabrielle's last male love interest - admittedly she didn't kiss anyone after Perdicus, unlike Xena who kissed a number of males throughout the series. It was posited that Gabrielle was attracted to Lin Qi, (Bcak in the Bottle) as has been pointed out in previous threads, although their kiss didn't actually make the screen so, I suppose, non-canon. However, we never actually saw G & X kiss either romantically but many accepted that they were romantic anyway.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

The Hercules writers coming in a trying to give Gabrielle a random love interest mid season 5 and Renee fighting back against it until it is basically fully removed from the episode does not count as post-Perdicus love interest. What we end up seeing in the episode is Lin Qi being into Gabrielle and her telling him she’s not interested in settling down with him because she’s already with Xena.

Also, Xena and Gabrielle do kiss romantically in The Quest as well as The Ring (and arguably every other moment their lips touch as romantic film language is always used), but I think “kisses” also can’t really count as evidence of romance, given that the majority of the kisses in the show are not romantic. The context also absolutely matters that women kissing each other on screen was the limit mandated by most tv studios at the time, so all of the ways they found to make up for that as well as actually going ahead and having them kiss anyway, absolutely must count for something. Meanwhile, it would not have been hard to have them kiss men romantically, but they very notably… don’t.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Actually Xena DOES leave Gabrielle on a number of occasions. Even in Season 6, she goes to Norseland and Gabrielle is pissed she's been dumped again and it isn't the first time, nor is it the last - remember FIN. Yes, Gabrielle dumped Xena early on in the series (Season 1), but not afterwards that I recall.

I agree that perhaps emotionally Xena doesn't want to leave Gabrielle - and this is obvious in Is There a Doctor in the Hosue for example, though again, early days, but even then, was it because she had come to depend on Gabrielle as her 'saviour' so to speak and not wanting to be alone again, or was it because she loved Gabrielle way back then, though they hadn't exchanged the words yet. I think the first time "I love you" is said in the series, it's in The Debt II which is Season 3.

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

sorry, edited my comment i got them mixed. .

ITADITH: Xena was crying "dont you leave me" because at this point Gabby is all she had, she in some ways replaced Lyceus with Gabby in the 1st season, I felt that "dont you leave me" was really Xena sad/pissed of another person close to her dying on her again.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Excellent point. Not necessarily romantic love but fraternal/family love and dependence.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

If Xena and Gabrielle have such a secure relationship and love each other so much, why would they be worried when the other develops an interest, even fleeting, in another person? Reminds me of Gabrielle being upset about Joxer being attracted to Amoria in Lyre Lyre, even though Gabrielle doesn't want a relationship with Joxer. Does this mean that Gabrielle is more insecure about her relationships than Xena is? Does it mean that Xena believes she can get away with more flirting and seduction of others, under the guise of it being part of "her plan"?

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I actually don’t think they do have a terribly secure relationship, which is another reason it doesn’t make sense for them to just be friends, if they’re friends they have a fucked up friendship, if they’re also lovers it’s alleviated a bit by the fact that ancient greek lovers are typically insane and make for great storytelling. Xena’s contingency plan for losing Gabrielle is literally killing herself. And Gabrielle gets a huge head about how much Xena loves her, it is accurate to the love and protection she’s shown, but it certainly doesn’t calm the part of her that craves attention. And they both get super jealous, I think the difference there is that Gabrielle had some shame about her jealousy one time but mostly just lets herself be jealous, whereas Xena doesn’t think she has a right to be. They probably could have a conversation and get over some of this stuff, but their life is really intense, even if you know the other is committed to you, seeing them enjoy using their wiles to tempt someone for a ploy isn’t fun.

They become more secure as time goes on, as they are both humbled by outside sources and have their relationship tested, until they learn that it’s not an option to let go, but it’s a rocky fucking road. And I love it personally.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

You mention that Xena's contingency plan for losing Gabrielle is to kill herself. What do you base that on? Adventures in the Sin Trade where she seeks Gabrielle out in the afterlife? How selfish is it then that Xena goes off and leaves Gabrielle twice in Season 6 because she thinks or plans to die? Does she not think how Gabrielle's going to feel being not only dumped, without a proper goodby even, but also 'widowed' so to speak? Or is it simply a case of Xena not being able to live without Gabrielle, but believing that Gabrielle can live without her? Who loves the other more?

Xena believing she doesn't have the right to be jealous of Gabrielle does actually explain why Xena always finds fault with females that have shown an interest in Gabrielle, as an excuse for why Gabrielle shouldn't get involved with them. They obviously have some serious communication problems.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Yes I base it on Sin Trade, where she was planning to follow her to eternity and One Against an Army where when she realized she couldn’t save Gabrielle, she planned to die fighting the Persians so that they could die together. I think Xena leaving Gabrielle time and again is actually super selfish but she has a hard time seeing it that way because all she can think about it that Gabrielle will die and it will be her fault. I think Xena does think Gabrielle would be able to go on without her and I guess she’s technically right based on AFIN, but that doesn’t mean that Gabrielle will be okay. I think Xena should take a moment to think about what would make Gabrielle okay, and I think that’s part of their relationship development that was never reached, and frankly should be.

They for sure have communication issues, but thinking about how vulnerable they make each other and how little room there is for vulnerability in the life they live, I do think it makes sense that they take a very long time to figure things out. There’s a lot at stake. Xena sitting down and telling Gabrielle about all of the things from her past that could come back to haunt them would be a great way to start that last step of their relationship development.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Guilt is a very strong motivator for sometimes making the wrong decision.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Very mature of your fiance to be able to accept what, in other cases, could be perceived as a threat - enjoying the company of another male, regardless that he's gay.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Fair point - if you're looking for that type of connection, you can interpret their interactions accordingly.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Now *that's* an open relationship - safety first. By season 6 they certainly appeared a lot closer than in season 5 and likely were lovers, but again, this is interesting. IF they were lovers by Heart of Darkness, and their dance indicated they were quite familiar with being somewhat hands on with each other, then surely that, in itself, shows they must have had some sort of an open relationship - because not only is Xena seducing Lucifer, which of course is all part of "the plan", but she allows Gabrielle to be a little hot with Virgil. Yes she comments on it later, just as Gabrielle throws something at Xena because of Lucifer. And did when Virgil joined the Xena/Gabrielle dance he seemed like he was going for a kiss with Xena, but Gabrielle turned his chin back to her and then led him off to dance solo with her, while Xena was tempting Lucifer. Surely that display wasn't part of the plan........

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

As a teenager, yes I did get jealous of my BFF's romantic relationships because they took my BFF away from me. So it's possible.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Yeah, I think that was an excuse that Renee used back in the day when they couldn’t talk about their specific interpretations (because he’s was clearly not that lol). But in adult relationships, if you can’t stand to see your best friend be with anyone else, maybe it’s time to reevaluate things, especially if everything else that’s true of their relationship applies.

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flynnigan14@reddit

Renee ships them more than anyone else, it seems 😂

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Literally 😭

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I was a teenager at the time, and have matured since then and feel more secure in my friendships now. They want to be with someone else? No problem. :-)

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

This is how I always saw them as well, but think we’re in the minority (although when the show aired we wouldn’t have necessarily have been)

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

And, of course, in the end, it depends on the people who have been been attracted to this subreddit and why. Are they gay, bi, straight, and what was it that they got from XWP and that still attracts them to commenting on the show 30 years later? It surprises me the number of people who were only young children when they were first introduced to XWP - and their interest back then could simply have been one of a Female Action Hero who kicks butt. The reason they call it 'subtext' was so people could see in it what they wanted to. Thank you for being brave enough to comment and share an alternative belief to the mainstream on this subreddit.

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

So I was eight years old when the show aired and I watched every single episode. I was obsessed with Xena being this bad ass, bold person - someone who was really quite the opposite of nerdy little old me. I always saw Xena and Gabrielle as soulmates, and that meant, to me, that that they evolved to be different things to each other at different points in time - which, yes, maymay include lovers. But even as a kid - and even re-watching it now at 36 years old, I don’t see the same sexual chemistry between them that I saw between Xena and Marc Anthony or Ares or Lao Ma. (Full disclosure, I was, and remain Xena/ Ares shipper.) Obviously there’s more to relationship than just sex and so it’s not to shut down the idea that Xena and Gabrielle are a couple, just isn’t how I viewed the show. Honestly, I thought Gabriel had way more sexual chemistry with Aphrodite than with Xena. And agree with your point on subtext - both subtexts were very much present, and that’s part of the fun of the show!

But more than that, from a storytelling perspective I love the idea of Gabrielle being what kept Xena on the course for her hardfought redemption; I love the idea of Xena being able to do the same for Ares, and it seems clear that the only way that can happen as if she and Ares are coupled up. There was something online called the shipper seasons which was a fan-made, script-based continuation of the show with that lens applied and it really resonated with me. That said, I think it’s wonderful that the show means so many different things to different people and love to see that celebrated A but I do wish we could talk about the show without it becoming this sort of discourse that says to have any opinion but the one currently held by the majority is unwelcome…Just my two cents!

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Oh interesting I didn’t know shippers had their own continuation. I’m curious, what does it do with Gabrielle?

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Latte-Catte@reddit

She's the best friend sidekick in Xena x Ares story, on good days Gabrielle gets Joxer as a partner. Post-timeskip, that partner is Virgil. All terrible continuation for our dear Gabrielle let's be honest.

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

I actually really liked Gabrielle’s storyline in those scripts. It felt like we got to see some of the more innocent parts of her coming back. So she’s still the warrior she evolved into, but not so hardened - there’s still some hope in her. Just my take!

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Latte-Catte@reddit

True, they do lean towards Gabrielle's innocence more. But since I'm a biased Xena x Gabrielle shipper, reading those moment always felt like Xena deliberately cheating on Gabrielle so it makes me feel awful for her. Like Xena is mistreating Gabrielle in front of Gabby to her knowledge. Plus, Joxer and Virgil is not a good pair with Gabby, so I never could enjoy those fanfiction. I love what they do with Ares though, those fanfiction always manage to add more depth to Ares' character, my favorites would be Ares' Curse, and Ares' Chosen by Silk.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Yeah I’m ^obviously more of a subtext virtual season fan, which is more of a natural continuation than a “twist” on canon continuation. But people who are fans of Ares exploring his character is really cool! As someone who is too much of a lez to get the sex appeal angle of the character, I do actually find Ares to be a pretty compelling and interesting character and I think his presence adds a really intriguing element to the show (most of the time, they lose me a bit in mid s5 lol).

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Latte-Catte@reddit

SAME. I actually think because Kevin Smith is stolen for Hercules so often he doesn't get much deserved backstory to Xena's past, even though the showrunners reminded us Xena's warlording era was somewhat influenced by Ares. But because Kevin Smith practically got a full-time job working on both show at the same time, I assume it's probably hard to write for him to fill up the plotholes to his character. Which is unfortunate, because it was in Xena that humanized and added better depth to Ares. I'm glad fanfic writers, and especially Xena x Ares shippers understand the missed potential to his character. I can appreciate reading them for that alone.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Oof.

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

It keeps her as Xena’s soulmate and has her toying with complicated feelings for Virgil because of Joxer. She also helps Ares because he’s important to Xena, and their relationship’s evolution is really well done and heartwarming! Similar to the flashes we start to see on Old Ares Had a Farm.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Okay I was gonna say I don’t think Ares having character development makes sense unless he’s mortal. Like Spike and his soul in Buffy. Definitely interesting that it’s like a spin off of Old Ares, that makes sense it seems like a very popular episode.

That is kind of painful to hear that Gabrielle has to put up with Virgil, and apparently Joxer? But I suppose I’m glad they didn’t kill her off and she still gets to be Xena’s soulmate, whatever that means.

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

Ares is mortal in the Shipper Seasons. Joxer still dead. Her feelings for Virgil are complicated by what she knew Joxer’s feelings for her were, which she couldn’t return. It was, in my opinion, good storytelling!

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Is Virgil her partner or is he just into her and she continues feeling bad about not reciprocating?

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

I think he wants to be her partner and Gabby wants that too, but she feels guilty because he’s Joxer’s son. Personally, I would have written it so that she ended up with a woman, but I can see why the authors took it in this direction

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Okay interesting

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

There's lots of fan fiction about that, though of course, none of it is 'canon.'

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Interesting. You say that Gabrielle is what kept Xena on the road to redemption without being lovers/intimate, yet Xena can only do the same for Ares because they are a couple? What does that say about men, then? They have to have sex in order to change? I'm reminded of the movie When Harry Met Sally, where Harry argues that men and women can never really ever be just friends.......that sex, or lack of sex, always comes into it........unless of course the man is gay. What open-minded female doesn't want a gay male best friend? I think that would be fabulous. (Went off on a tangent there, sorry.) Does that mean that women are more evolved than men when it comes to relationships, of all sorts?

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

No not all men, just Ares! would think the same if the Ares character had been female. Xena initially begins to change because Hercules helps her to feel some horror at what she’s become, ignites in her a desire to do good. Gabrielle fans that flame and keeps it going with her own innate goodness and innocence and love for Xena, romantic or otherwise. Ares only does good, occasionally, because he falls in love with Xena - NOT because he’s had any sort of broader realisation about the world. And so that’s why, in my opinion, his redemption can only be driven and maintained by a romantic relationship with Xena. Just my take, of course!

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

by season 6, FOR SURE they are a couple. before that I just think they were just close friends with a deep love and understanding

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Thank you Automatic-Deptness4 and FirefighterThink1556 - this is the type of debate I was looking for. Further replies against comments below.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

....your bff is gay. That's. That's totally not the same thing. As a bisexual woman, I would never intentionally sleep with a woman ever, I spare the same boundary with straight men. But if they're gay men, it depends how gay. But even then I doubt his boyfriend would be okay with him sleeping with another adult woman. That's not the kind of relationship Xena and Gabrielle share at all. Xena who had definitely slept with Lao Ma in their robe dance. Gabrielle who nearly agree to run a hospice with Najara? Nope. Not a fair comparison at all.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I love your interpretation of soulmate, and think this is a very valid comment - you don't have to have sex with someone to feel particularly close to them, and might for example, very much want them in your life regardless, as a partner in every other sense of the word. Which leads me to another point - could they, Xena and Gabrielle, be satisfied loving each other (which they expressed on multiple occasions) and sharing their lives together without having sex?

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Automatic-Adeptness4@reddit

I think Xena made a comment in the sauna with the Amazons, Here is a trans script lmao:

A- What's it like? Being with a man?

X-The good news is it's different every time.... The bad news is it's different every time.
You're always hoping for greek fire, but sometimes you just get diddly.

G-Xena has studied the subject more than I have, but I think she's trying to say that some people are better lovers than others.

A-What makes a man a good lover? Being gentle and kind?

(X&G at the same time) X-No. G-Yes.

G-It's a complicated subject.

*i think here we learn they gave up on wanting sex with men anymore lol

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Good quote. Could also explain why Xena does sometimes seem to like to dally with men - because they're NOT (always) gentle and kind. So we could probably interpret this also as Perdicus being gentle and kind and that being Gabrielle's preference perhaps? The looks they shared during that exchange? Priceless......... Read into it what you will!

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FirebirdWriter@reddit

The erasure of this debate is low hanging fruit. We know what Xena and Gabrielle are. They literally had a kid together. They're clearly not in a throuple. Ares can try for Gabrielle as. Revenge seduction all he wants but he's not winning over multiple lifetimes. Did you watch the show at all? They are literally soul mates

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I have watched the show several times and some episodes many times. I haven't said what my own beliefs are - I was simply interested in other peoples' opinions and, more importantly, how they justify them, and how they defend them - whether by insulting others or ignoring episodes to fit in with their own mindset or actually providing quotes from the episodes that support their own theories. I've noticed in the past that those who believe they were only friends (or who quote their family that believe they were only friends) get shouted down pretty quickly............which of course goes against my hope that we could have a discussion about this without it leading to having a go at other people. AS I said in the opening, I hoped everyone would respect everyone else's opinions, regardless of how they personally felt.

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FirebirdWriter@reddit

Neither one consented to Eve so that is something neither had a say in but they did decide together to be her parents. So with the context it's the best they could do with the circumstances. The subtext is barely subtext and it's very "they were roommates" to pretend that it's not confirmed they're a couple

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I think it's the terminology you used. When you said "they had a kid together" to my way of thinking that means they made a decision to have a child together and then did. As you've pointed out, neither of them consented to Eve's creation. My OCD side would have used the slightly different wording of "they chose to raise a child together" after that child was going to be an important part of the biological mother's life. Of course, in the end they didn't actually raise her for very long at all. Which of course raises another point that could be debated - is it our genetics or is it our environment that determines how we all turn out?

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FirebirdWriter@reddit

Can confirm it's not genetics or environment. It's a mixture of things. I was raised in white supremacy and am the black sheep because they couldn't convince baby me to hate and adult me went "Xena can be redeemed so can I." So I got an apartment in secret and a job and left.

Also I don't think being overly specific is clearer here. It's a complicated situation with Eve.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Good for you, escaping that upbringing and forging your own way. I live in Australia and find the white supremacy/extreme Christian right (or is it left) of the USA as something very foreign to me. Can relate to the black sheep comment, but not in a really bad way, just that my family were very conservative and naive and very goody-two-shoes. I smoked and skipped classes occasionally as a teenager, married a male, loud, tattooed biker who also liked to drink, then left him for a woman! So, quite black sheep in my own family, but probably not in others.

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FirebirdWriter@reddit

The right is the white supremacy side. My family would hate you so know this means you are amazing. I also have married a man then married a woman later in life. Alas I would be tattooed but my skin rejected the ink so hard it's not identifiable as a tattoo. I find that funny tbh. "Goth sailor moon sleeve? Not on me!" My skin

I will say that the white supremacy is built into the culture of anywhere with colonialism. The difference is how much people actually fought to change vs "We did enough because we finally conceded to the rights on this thing but no real change."

I have wondered for years what would have happened if reparations actually went through in the US.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I think there’s A LOT of years of hurt built up there, that a lot of people are not wanting to revisit, and I think that’s super valid. As a baby Xenite, I personally am interested to hear what some of the justifications for alternative view points are because they don’t really make any sense to me. But I think if I’d been here doing this for years I probably would be super over it.

There’s a huge difference between Xena/Ares shippers being told their view doesn’t make sense, and Xena/Gabrielle shippers having to deal with/be reminded of homophobia. It’s not that everyone who doesn’t ship Xena/Gabrielle is homophobic of course. But the history is fraught, and I don’t think people aren’t always mindful of that. To argue against it and not be willing to acknowledge it as a major part of the show, whether intentionally or not, is erasure of the important representation the show provides.

People have their own opinions and that’s great, it’s an excellent show for reading your own interpretations into. But being continually reminded that the main relationship of the show is not accepted by everyone, despite arguably still being some of the best sapphic representation on tv to this day, is never going to be easy for queer fans who needed this show to hear, no matter how nicely it’s said.

Also I’m sorry, as I said I’m a baby Xenite so this isn’t really my own experience, more just what I’ve observed. But wishing I had grown up with this show and knowing how much it would have changed my life, it’s very easy to imagine the hurt, and I’ve certainly been in a similar situation with other media.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

And that was the purpose of this post - for everyone to feel free to air their opinions. I was a fan of the show when it first came out (yes I'm that old), but I didn't engage in any of that sort of debate way back then. Reddit now provides that opportunity.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Understood, I’m just trying to explain why some people might be reacting the way they are, and why some people’s opinions might receive seemingly unfair or disproportionate reactions.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

And I appreciate that and welcome it. After all, isn't that the purpose of debating something?

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

All that to say, it’s a perfectly fair question to ask, but I think the framing of it as all of these are just as valid options does kind of take away from the main relationship which is much more justified by the text and only really can be argued against because of the show’s lack of direct language. It’s valid to think whatever you want, but none of it should be at the expense of the most important thing the show does.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

And if that's what you and many others got out of it, that's great. Others got other things out of the show. Ackowledging and presenting an intimate relationship between the two women was certainly ahead of its time, regardless of how you interpret that intimacy. The show didn't just stop there, though, as it also aired the transgender issue in Here Comes Miss Amphipolis. And it showed an intimate relationship between two different cultures when it came to Marcus and Xena.

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onetwothree1234569@reddit

I think its extremely obvious and not really uo for debate even.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

On the contrary, it may be obvious to some, who want to see those connections, due perhaps to their own beliefs and lives, but to others it's not, and their interpretation is just as valid. And I think debate is healthy.

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onetwothree1234569@reddit

But it's not though because litterally everyone on the show said what it is. There really isn't anything left to debate.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Perhaps the timing of the discussion is years too late, but I made the invitation to see what others personally thought, based on the episodes, contrary to what "everyone" on the show is reported as saying. After all, what they said also changed over the years. And some have risen to the challenge and been brave in giving their differing opinions, which I commend them for. Perhaps it's clear to you, but others not so much, despite what's been said. It's like the debate about Atlantis - did it exist or didn't it?

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Agent8699@reddit

Yes, it may be a little late. It was more heavily … debated (the shipper wars) back in the day, especially as at that stage, none of TPTB had openly come out and said “yes, we’re writing them as lovers to the best of our ability within the restrictions imposed by the studio”.

Now that TPTB have all (?) basically admitted that they at least sometimes wrote with the idea of Xena and Gabrielle being lovers / married / more than BFFs, I guess most fans take that as the gospel truth.

But, of course, back in the day they went to great lengths to keep it at least a little ambiguous for a number of reasons, including pressure from the studio, but also for other reasons, like exploiting the chemistry between Xena and Ares.

It’s a difficult subject to discuss, even today - especially in the current US climate where it appears queer stories may once again be ignored or swept under the rug.

I guess you have two main … interpretations:

a view based on how the series was presented originally without any added context from TPTB
a view based on the original series, as supplemented by all the BTS gossip and added context from TPTB.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

You can even say fans can ship Xena x Ares up until the point in season 6 which Xena basically rejected Ares fullstop. Even when Ares proved he would sacrifice everything for the sake of Xena, even driven to insanity. But s6 ultimately proved Xena x Gabrielle all the way, hiring Melissa Good gotta be the final nail in the coffin 😅

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

No haven't seen any official Hercules and Xena channel. Do you mean they're still playing it on t.v. in the States?

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Latte-Catte@reddit

No I mean the youtube channel hahaha! The official Herc&Xena channel practically calling them girlfriends 😂

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Didn't know there was one. Can you send me the link? Ta.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

https://www.youtube.com/@HerculesXena

I'm surprised you and u/Agent8699 don't know about it, maybe this channel is region specific and only available to Americans?

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Agent8699@reddit

Is it official? As in run by NBC Universal?

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Latte-Catte@reddit

It is official official, probably run by NBC idk. It's definitely promoting Hercules and Xena, clipping big moments, and making posts. So yeah, official official.

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Agent8699@reddit

Yes, but they were still playing with the chemistry in Old Ares Had a Farm, The God You Know, You Are There, etc.

Of course, Gabrielle got in on that action in at least two of those episodes!

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Those same episodes played at xenagabrielle way more tho, and the dejected Ares.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Precisely. And I really wanted people's *personal* opinions, which I'm getting - not what they may have been indoctrinated to believe. Perhaps indoctrination is too harsh a word. Taking the series out of context of the time it was aired somehow lessens it in terms of obscure 'political' comment I guess. I am aware of how things seem to be turning in the US (mostly through watching other US shows, like Grey's Anatomy for example), but choose not to follow the news. Give me the fantasy of a tv series about two women, and I'm happier!

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I think it's a little late for that. Whatever reasonings and justification the non-xenagab shippers had probably died after canonical confirmation by the showrunners and s6 itself. Everyone deserves headcannon sure, but it probably is just that, headcannons and personal fanfictions. Which is all fine too.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

You're spoiling all my fun! I was after a debate and got one, even it it's to say I'm too late and it's all old news........... :-)

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Hahahaha! I'm still waiting for their comments too, it's been 24 hours so I've reached this conclusions hahaha!

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Quite invigorating isn't it?

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Agent8699@reddit

I don’t fault anyone for seeing them as BFFs, as long as they’re respectful of those who view them as partners / lovers.

It was deliberately written to be at least a little ambiguous, especially seasons 1, 2 (mostly), 3 and 5. So, that’s a valid interpretation.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I mean I think the sympathy for people with opposing views points is mainly falling on deaf ears because a lot of people see the widespread acceptance that the show is a love story between two women as a really good thing. So, I think it’s a little uncomfortable to say that people who want to believe the show isn’t gay are brave and are being over shadowed/attacked for their views by the queer majority. The political context of the world when the show was being made as well as now is part of it, and can’t really be taken out of it, because of how entangled it is with how the show was written.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I think the show being a love story between two women, regardless of how it was represented, was wonderful. But I stick to my guns in saying that *anyone* who has an opinion about anything even slightly different to the accepted mainstream beliefs nowadays is actually very brave for having the guts to express that opinion, no matter how others interpret it. Isn't that what freedom of speech is all about? You don't have to agree with others' opinions, and they may be living in the dark ages according to some, but everyone deserves to be heard.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Sure of course they’re entitled to their opinion, but others are also entitled to arguing with their opinion. It’s weird here because the minority is actually more aligned with mainstream thinking. At least from what I can tell of people who have responded to this thread. People also have a right to be protective of something so limited and precious, and to want to be seen and to say that.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Agreed, and that was the purpose of the thread. :-). And thank you for participating in it.

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Tricky_Direction_897@reddit

Yup, people always forget that what the cast and crew said has changed over the years. Can debate the reasons for that, of course, but…

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NiceRefrigerator4079@reddit

Everyone who worked in a series, from the creator over the writers to Lucy and Renee confirmed not once than several times they have had a love affair and If they wanted to show them in series as a couple, so I can't see what you will discuss?

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

On the contrary, there has been quite a bit of discussion which I'm glad of, and was what I sought, even if it's to deny that there's any need for the discussion! :-)

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flynnigan14@reddit

They're poly at the beginning but monogamous by the end. If it were made today, they would've tossed the boyfriend of the week trope by season 2 at the latest and they would've been undeniably together, no question.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I wouldn't call it "poly" like an agreement both made to have dalliance, but in the start they probably didn't officially agree to the relationship. Once it's settled, we basically don't witness Xena "cheating" not unless it's part of the plan (i.e. Lucifer, Mark Antony).

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flynnigan14@reddit

Poly is the only way I can accept any wayward glance. Haha I see them sort of figuring out their relationship after The Quest when they realized how important they were to each other.

Especially with Mark Antony. Xena definitely had conflicting feelings there, even though it was meant mostly as a scheme. Gabrielle saw it as well.

I know the main reason they added those bits was to keep the network happy and they were fairly few and far between (Except for Gabrielle falling for everything that moved in season one...lol) but the only way I can accept them as canon is to believe they had an open relationship for a while.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

You have nicer headcannons than me, cause I just assume Xena is a cheater who can't hold it in the pants. I refuse to believe Gabrielle accepts any of that hahaha 😬

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flynnigan14@reddit

She's pretty bad about it, then, because Gabrielle sees all 😂

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I'm sure Xena will try to work on herself and has gotten better overtime lol. I chalk it up to different level of libido between Xena and Gabby. Xena ultimately has 'em higher, much much higher. Poor Gabrielle 😂

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flynnigan14@reddit

I cringed when she said she felt something at the end but that's mainly because I can't stand Ares 😂

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Since Ares looked canonically as hot as Kevin Smith, and Xena is bisexual..I mean, what can a woman do, right? 😂

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flynnigan14@reddit

Thank God I'm a lesbian so I can see him for exactly what he is. A piece of trash. His looks don't fool me 😂

(Obviously I'm talking about the character and not the actor. Kevin Smith seemed like a really cool guy)

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Okay, then can Athena fool you if she was as bad as Ares? 👀

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flynnigan14@reddit

...absolutely 😂😂😂

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Latte-Catte@reddit

So don't come after me for drooling over Ares, girl! 😂😂

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flynnigan14@reddit

I'm not coming after anyone! 😂😂😂 I'm just saying I see through his crap thanks to the power I have that makes every man look like a cardboard box 😂

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Girl why TF did reddit removed your completely harmless comment 😭. I didn't even receive the notification and had to approve it moderator style. This site is bullshit!

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flynnigan14@reddit

But why? Because I said men looked like cardboard boxes?!?! I can't help what I see! Lol

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I seriously have no clue!

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flynnigan14@reddit

Well damn. I guess I'll have to watch my clearly offensive language for now on 😂

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

At least she admitted it to Gabrielle. You must have really hated Season 5 and 6 then with all of Ares' I love you announcements.

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flynnigan14@reddit

I cringed every time 😂. My favorite thing about season 6 is how Gabrielle was completely clueless about men and women falling head over heels for her, though.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Was she though? Completely clueless? She might have given that impression and not acted on it - Xena was always aware of course - but what about in You Are There - when she comes across Beowulf and is surprised he's still not mooning over her.........because love has left the world. An in the Rheingold trilogy she was very aware that Brunhilda had a thing for her - she challenges it, but knows it's still there.

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flynnigan14@reddit

Not at the beginning for both of them, though. There's one point, right after they find Xena that Brunhilda said something to Gabrielle and gave her a look (I don't remember the exact line) and Gabrielle gave her a friendly smile and looked away like it was nothing. Xena was NOT cool with it. It was right before she told Gabrielle she didn't like her. And the same with Beowolf. She didn't catch that hint right away but miss Xena sure did.

It was pretty obvious she wasn't looking for anyone else's attention by that point so she didn't catch on right away. Remember season one Gabby? Someone would smile at her and she was immediately in love.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

And in Season 1 she was much younger and far more naive about the ways of the world........so of course, if someone paid her a little attention, she could read whatever she wanted in it. Another question is, when do we all think Gabrielle started to have feelings for Xena? I know some people will say right from episode 1. I'd argue they might have been unconsciously attracted to each other then (well, maybe not Xena, she'd be aware of any attraction right from the start - but certainly Gabrielle) but being attracted to someone doesn't mean you're instantly in love with them. In lust maybe, but not deep-seated love which is what we're all discussing isn't it?

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flynnigan14@reddit

I think she started to have the first hint of feelings in Dreamworker but might've confused them for strong friendship/sisterly bonds. I think her feelings started to actually develop in either Prometheus or The Greater Good and they turned into something solid by The Quest.

For Xena, she got her first little hint in The Titans and she was sure of her feelings when she thought she lost Gabrielle in Is There a Doctor in the House.

Of course we all have our own thoughts on this, but that's where I believe it all started for each of them.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Xena's a lusty passionate woman, of course she has a higher libido and when it's not sated then she gets so angry, she kills things!

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

That's a bit of a contradiction isn't it? Didn't you just say that she wasn't a cheater excpt as part of her plans, which, in theory justified her actions and therefore she could it wasn't real (whilst thinking she's having a little bit of fun with 'fluff').

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I'm thinking more in-line with Ares and Lucifer here. Both time left very ambiguous. Xena seems to love using her feminine fatality as a weapon, so idk! I like to think Gabby wouldn't tolerate it though!

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Her feminine wiles are one of her many skills!

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Yes but did she come up with those plans because she wanted an opportunity to smack face with a good-looking hunk of something-something?

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Mmmmmh, no I personally think she came up with that plan after Cleopatra is assassinated and she needed to play Cleopatra, and do a little feme fatale, than the typical xena fatale. Mark Antony turning out hot was a later thing 👀

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

She must have seen a statue or painting or something of Marc Antony, because Octavius and Brutus also players in trying to secure Clepoatra's assistance, and she doesn't seduce either of them............

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Octavius was a boy, and Brutus was an old friend. Mark Antony was someone Xena never met before that's why she went the flirting route. It only works for men she never met and doesn't know her.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

True, Octavius was a boy. Obviously Xena prefers young women, not young men. Re Marc Antony, my point is, if he hadn't been so good looking would she have flirted with him and tried to seduce him, because she didn't do that with the more average looking Brutus. And I wouldn't call Brutus a friend, either. He was more friendly/taken with Gabrielle, not Xena. She pointed out truths to him though which he took back to Rome, so she used him in a different way. Why? Because he wasn't as good looking as Marc Antony? They were both supposedly friends of Caesar's.

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Latte-Catte@reddit

I think Xena would still flirt with Antony even if he looked like a pig, since that's the only way for her plan to work out. She needed to befriend Antony, but can she convince a Roman captain to give her the ship to attack Brutus'? I don't think so, lover it is. It's a good homage to the Mark Antony and Cleopatra story anyway.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Certainly it's a sign of the times of when it was filmed and the attitude of society during that era. It also would probably not have been as successful, as it would not have appealed to as many people who were more inspired by Xena's feminist attitude of being able to look after herself, despite her being a woman, rather than were they sleeping together or not. Others watched the show because they wanted to see someone who had done terrible things in her past be redeemed. Don't we all wish we could get redemption for some of the things we, ourselves, have done in the past?

I'd like to especially thank flynnigan14 for their comment and am disappointed it was downvoted - as that goes against what I had hoped to achieve by this whole post - tolerance to others' attitudes.

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flynnigan14@reddit

Did it really get downvoted? Haha that's funny. I'd rather people comment their disagreements then quietly choose a reaction so we can discuss our different stances or agree to disagree, like adults. We all have our opinions and that's perfectly fine. Believing they were poly keeps me from hating the other love interest stories (Except for Ulysses. I can't stand him 😂).

If it were made today, it would be called "woke propaganda," unfortunately, even if it didn't feature two women in love. Two female lead characters? People who aren't white (even if they're minor characters)? More than one god? Oh no!

My favorite thing about Xena is watching Gabrielle's growth from a naive village kid to the fiercely confident battling bard. Her struggles and discoveries in herself are, to me, what made the show great.

Having two women very clearly in love was a nice treat as well but Gabby was my main reason for watching.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Woke propaganda is another term I'm not familiar with. What does this mean? I agree with your comment about Gabrielle's growth. Some might even argue that the series is actually Gabrielle's story, and not really Xena's, but let's not go there this time around! When I started watching it when it first aired (30 years ago) I was a fan and supporter of Xena in the first instance, but upon watching the series again more recently, I've definitely become a bigger Gabrielle fan. Funny how attitudes change over the years.

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flynnigan14@reddit

"Woke," is what people use when they don't like to see people who aren't like them (usually straight white men) in media. They think adding gay people, folks who aren't white, or women as main characters, etc. Is being forced into the entertainment industry to push an agenda. It's become a popular term in the last 4 years and it's basically showing how bigoted this world still is, sadly.

I've only been watching Xena for a short period of time. I was young when it first came out and I honestly didn't even know it existed back then, but I'm sure glad I know about it now!

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I'm glad you found it, and are enjoying it.

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EVILisinALL8778@reddit

Their passion ran too deep for friends with benz. We all saw those looks. Being willing to go to hell to save someone is probably passed the border of FWBs. Straight up LOVERs mono baby mono

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Thanks for your viewpoint. Good argument.

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Agent8699@reddit

Partners in every sense of the word. In a closed relationship, with Xena pushing the boundaries with her various “plans” which required her to seduce tall, dark and handsome men.

Could they have been friends with benefits? I would think soul mates + a multitude of declarations of undying and eternal love + sex = something more than FWBs! They shared everything together, every day.

All that typed, their relationship had some serious ups and downs!

Season 1 - getting to know one another Season 2 - the heady early days of dating Season 3 - yikes, neither is the person the other expected them to be Season 4 - marriage and honeymoon Season 5 - a new baby, a dead bedroom and various issues Season 6 - old empty nesters, doing whatever they want

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readyreadyvt@reddit

This, for the most part. The only place I differ is that I can’t categorically rule out some openness in the relationship. I don’t see much evidence it is open, just (off the top of my head) can’t say for sure it’s not.

But I would find it difficult to categorize the relationship as something as casual as FWB with - G wanting to be buried with X, not her family - G admonishing X never to leave her again in the Ring trilogy (and dodging the affections of the Everyone Loves Gabrielle Club, and the whole only X can save G thing) - X telling Ares G is the one person she intended to live out her life with

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Zestyclose_Lake_1146@reddit

I don’t see it as open. I see it as a quirk in the writing that’s a result of them not being able to openly call them a couple. In universe you can say lines from the scrolls were lost or misinterpreted

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Same. That or the ancient Greece world doesn't take XenaGab relationship seriously enough, so the men continuously flirt with them (and let's be real, that happens a lot with lesbians even today), or the Xena matchmaking with several men is another YAXI. However we practically don't see Xena intentionally laid with men unless it's part of her plans.

So, no, it's hard for me to believe either girls are open if they get incessantly jealous when other flirts with them.

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Agent8699@reddit

I don’t know what it’s called, but I could see it being open in the sense that Xena is allowed dalliances (and indulges herself from time to time) and Gabrielle is also technically allowed dalliances (but never does so because she knows Xena would murder her lover/s).

But, I don’t think that’s really fair and Gabrielle has already sacrificed so much of what she wanted to be with Xena, I’d hate to think that Xena is so selfish that she’d pressure Gabrielle into an open relationship knowing that she (Xena) is the only one who would benefit.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I agree, I think they’re “allowed” in that they maybe never talk about it and set boundaries, but both of them show enough jealousy that I don’t think their relationship is actually open.

The few instances where Xena seems to have a wandering eye usually do end up being a trick anyway, she just might genuinely also be attracted to them, which is fine it happens, the relevance is that it makes her feel slightly worse about fucking them over lol.

And Gabrielle’s one instance of looking elsewhere with Najara, is actually handled within the context of them trying to have a monogamous relationship as Gabrielle has to choose. Not to mention the whole discussion of committing fully to Xena, which is handled in this season both in The Way and The Ides of March.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

Never talk about it is wrong actually, in season 6 they have definitely talked about it lol

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I love your Season 3 summary. Yikes!!

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DaniDoesnt@reddit

Good summary

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SnooSuggestions9830@reddit

By the end of the show they were lovers.

But the journey is inconclusive.

You have to ignore certain episodes they added specifically to give each a male love interest due to it being a 90s show.

You kind of have to go with the intended spirit of the show rather than strict canon.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

I like that you said "by the end of the show" and when they got there is not clear (inconclusive). To digress, I really dislike fanfics where they meet and are sleeping with each other the next minute or thereabouts, so to have a 'slow burn' is preferable - giving off the whole will they/won't thy vibe.

The thing is that there *were* episodes that introduced a male interest for either of them. If it suits people to ignore those episodes, fine. Let's be frank here, it could be argued that they were put in to appease the studio AND non-lesbian fans. But I wanted to look at the series as a whole, which includes those episodes.

Which brings me to another, unpopular POV as well - as bisexuals (and my interpretation of that word is quite simply someone who has slept with both males and females, and we're assuming that's the behind-the-scenes reality in this series ), were they ever truly satisfied with *just* each other, romantically. And is that the real reason why Xena's "plans" would often include seducing a hunky male.........

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SnooSuggestions9830@reddit

I think for me to accept those male love interest episodes as canon alongside them having a relationship there would have needed to have been some sort of reaction between X and G.

Couples in open relationships generally have rules and kind of flaunting the new lover in main lovers face is frowned upon.

I guess you could argue they weren't possessive of each other but it's kind of heavily implied in canon that they are - Najara/Lao mar episodes for example. Sure these were females but id argue same logic applies.

when was either of their last male love interest in the timeline? (I forget). But I think they only way for me to reconcile them as romantic partners from S2 is to discount those episodes - or to propose they weren't romantic at that stage and it happened later. Which actually may fit better overall.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Certainly it would have been good to see Xena and Gabrielle "discuss" some of these incidents but not only would that have been uncomfortable for people who didn't understand/acknowledge their relationship as intimate, but also it then moves more into being a Drama with Feelings, rather than an Action series with some really good dramatic episodes that touched on feelings but didn't go into them in any great details, especially between each other.

I know nothing about open relationships so can't comment on what is, and is not, acceptable if that's what a couple has agreed to, though of course, I expect they would have to have some rules they both agreed to in the first place. And let's be honest, they would BOTH have to want it - not simply one person wanting to dally, officially, outside their marriage/de facto relationship and the other one accepting it simply because they didn't want to lose their partner.

Najara's story is interesting. Xena seems jealous of Gabrielle spending the time with Najara but then decides Najara is probably better for her than Xena is and at this point she wants to do anything she can to avoid the vision Alti gave her. Of course, that changes when Xena realises what Najara is really like.

Re Lao Ma, I've just addressed that elsewhere in this post - Gabrielle's feelings there.

You forgot Brunhilda who is another person that Xena sees an obvious attraction between her and Gabrielle. What I find entertaining is that Xena would have these looks on her face that shows she's not happy with where things might go between Gabrielle and all the female Gabrielle-fans so to speak, but in the case of Brunhilda, for example, she'll indicate she doesn't like her for a different reason - in other words she'll justify her jealousy by saying there's something she doesn't trust about the other potential love interest of Gabrielle's.

BUT one thing I did note is that Xena doesn't feel threatened at all about any of Gabrielle's MALE fans, eg. Joxer (stands to reason), Beowulf or Lin Qi. Why is that?

Finally the last actual male love interests? If you exclude Hercules, Xena's last male love interest was Marcus, whom she tells Gabrielle she still loves (Season 1). In the series of course we see Borias as being a sexual partner of Xena's, but in Adventures in the Sin Trade, Xena makes it pretty clear she doesn't acknowledge she doesn't think love comes into it. As for Gabrielle - she only claims love for Perdicus.

Destiny/The Quest are the two episode lots seem to think is where their own acknowledgement of loving each other stems from.

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FirefighterThink1556@reddit

I think that is definitely one way of looking at it, a show based on mythology does lend itself well to the possibility that we aren’t seeing precise canon or the correct order of events.

But I also think it’s possible to work the weird other love interests into a canon where they are lovers from mid season 2 on. It’s annoying as hell but it’s not like the alternative makes any more sense…

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Latte-Catte@reddit

Well if they were friends with benefit, Xena shouldn't have been sad letting Gabrielle marry off to Perdicus, or Gabrielle getting jealous over Lao Ma, a dead woman.

If people wants to argue "best friend" they'd have to ignore a huge part of their relationship, and why they're so special to one another. Best friend wouldn't let their best friend kill their child and let it slide over more love confession in a musical. IDK girl.

But if they want to argue, "well Xena works with Ares best" or somewhere along that line with their reasoning, then sure. Let's debate Ares can win over Xena, this or that. But to claim XenaGab can't be lovers? They need to show me their female best friend irl as receipt.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

Friends with Benefits was just a suggestion. I didn't say I personally believed that. Re the Perdicus thing, it can be interpreted many ways (not that I agree with them all), eg. (1) Perdicus was a wuss and why on earth would Gabrielle go back to the man she ran away from in the first place? (2) Xena loves Gabrielle and doesn't want to lose her, but she doesn't love her enough to claim that love and, in fact, claim Gabrielle - this has been depicted in fan fiction for example - or perhaps she's just too scared to voice it? (3) Xena knows Gabrielle is her best shot at staying on the straight and narrow and without her, she'll revert back to being evil (think The Price). Of course, the kiss and the look in her eyes, that only the audience sees, tends to discount some of these, but they could also all have been relevant to Xena's way of thinking.

re Lao Ma, it could have simply been that Gabrielle has sacrificed so much for Xena over the past 2.5 years or so and suddenly she's being dumped again? And that those last two years have meant nothing to Xena in terms of trying to steer her away from murder which is, basically, what Xena says she's going to do at Lao Ma's behest? That would piss anyone off, who's been offering you advice and support and guidance for a long period of time. Personally, sure, I think Gabrielle was jealous that Xena loved someone else more than she did her - or at least that's what she believed - as revealed in Forget Me Not.

I haven't seen anyone actually argue FOR best friend yet on this post - probably fearful of being 'crucified' for that opinion and the likely lash back. I certainly don't hug and kiss my best friend the way Xena and Gabrielle do, but maybe other friends are more affectionate. They seem to be on t.v.

Does Xena work best with Ares? Again, open to debate. IF you're hetero-inclined (not sure if that's a word but you get my drift) then sure, that's what they'd believe. Even, perhaps, if you're bi-inclined maybe - after all he was a good looking, muscular guy who declares his love for Xena periodically (though not as much as Gabrielle) which is hard to resist. For lesbians? No way! This post itself has already brought about quite a number of interesting comments from what I'm guessing is a predominantly gay readership.

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NiceRefrigerator4079@reddit

No. It's just soulmates in loved eaching other.

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f0rever-n1h1l1st@reddit

Definitely polyam primary romantic partners. It's made explicitly clear that they're fully in love with each other and true soulmates, but they're always supportive of the other starting relationships with others.

For example, Joxer being in love with Gabrielle is never seen as a threat to Xena/Gabrielle nor does it setup a love triangle. Xena and Gabrielle are always understood to be together, and Gabrielle/Joxer is this additional relationship.

It's the same with Xena and Ares.

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AuntyEmfromOz@reddit (OP)

All good points to consider. An open relationship, provided you come back to me after your fling, so to speak! Is that also then an acknowledgement that some people can't be totally satisfied with just one other person, despite how much they love each other? Considering human history, and the number of people who have affairs, even though the love their wife/husband, is that an argument against monogamy as well provided, again, that it is clear who you will commit to in the long run.

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IseQween@reddit

Yes to all.